Mamamia Out Loud: How Carrie Bradshaw Became A Monster

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Mamma Mia Out Loud!

Hello and welcome to Mamma Mia Out Loud.

It's what women are actually talking about on Wednesday, the 23rd of August.

I'm Holly Wainwright.

I'm Mia Friedman.

And I'm Claire Stevens.

Thank God.

She's back.

We're back to the threesome that we should rightfully be.

I quite liked the two-hander.

I have to say, I didn't want to give you that feedback because that makes me redundant.

But I thought Monday was excellent.

Thank you, my friend.

But we missed you and I'm glad that you're feeling less poorly.

Thank you.

On today's show, Mia thinks Carrie Bradshaw is a monster and she's not alone in that.

But today we found out that, and just like that, has been renewed for season three,

so we're all going to have to live with Carrie a little bit longer.

I need to unpack it.

Plus, is there a way to have a respectful debate in 2023?

The fate of iconic political show Q&A suggests not.

And do the people who've known you the longest know you the best?

Why were encouraged to cut relationships that represent the old us?

But first, in case you missed it, a new story has pointed to a different kind of problem

we're facing in classrooms.

According to the Sydney Morning Herald, a Senate inquiry into disruptive classrooms

has been told the story of a teacher who had recently started at a new school

and was asked to give one student some improvement strategies.

The child went home and complained.

The principal asked that that teacher apologized to the parents

for making that student feel stressed.

Australia's classrooms are ranked among the worst in the world when it comes to discipline

and the responsibility for that should not fall solely on teachers.

Education experts have told a federal Senate inquiry into disruptive classrooms.

I think it's us. We're the problem.

Oh, God. Yes.

A report earlier this year said the disciplinary climate in Australia

was among the least favorable compared to other member nations

while Australian teachers felt less capable when it came to dealing with disruptive students.

The inquiry is expected to report its findings by November,

but why I found this particularly interesting at the moment

is because also in the news this week and now plan results

and people love reporting the now plan results in the context of teachers do better.

So the now plan results show that one in three school students throughout Australia

are not meeting minimum numeracy and literacy expectations

and one in 10 are so far behind they need additional support.

What about Children Try Harder?

Children Try Harder.

But it really reminded me that considering this Senate inquiry about discipline in schools,

if teachers don't even have the authority to give students improvement strategies,

how can we be expecting an environment of rigorous learning?

Do you remember? I don't know if it was like this in the UK hole in Manchester.

Oh, dear.

The cane.

We used to get it.

Oh, my God.

People love to get it, Lord.

I'm not saying bring it back, but I'm just saying look how far we've come.

In our lifetime, we were hit with sticks on our hands and on our bottoms.

And that didn't work.

And our parents were like, meh, I shouldn't have done that.

Oh, my God.

Imagine that.

Look how far the pendulum has swung.

Teachers, every time now plan results come out,

teachers get a big whack from the media.

I had breakfast TV on this morning and there was a big whinge about it.

And I'm just like, teachers need medals and crowns.

Much more money because they are dealing with things

that no other teachers have had to deal with.

Like my kid goes to a school where they're just all watching TV on their iPad.

You know what I mean?

Like my kid in class.

That didn't happen in my world.

Teachers weren't competing with phones, technology,

very, very reduced attention spans.

And also I'm on Team NAPLAN's bullshit anyway.

Love that.

Love that.

Says the person who bought her daughter a cake,

sang well done for even going to NAPLAN, which was compulsory.

Year three.

It was announced overnight as Holly mentioned that,

and just like that has been renewed for a third season.

So love it or hate it, there's going to be more of it.

I have to go on the record and say I was wrong

because I openly have said in written posts

and on the show that I thought it was done.

I was wrong.

It's a little bit of wishful thinking because I too was hoping that it would wrap up.

But having said that, I will watch every second of every episode.

What's even wrong with us?

I'll never stop.

The season finale drops tomorrow.

And even though many felt and some even hoped, as you say,

that this would be a wrap on Carrie, Miranda, Charlotte

and the 245 new characters we've met over the past two seasons,

the world of Sex and the City will officially live on.

But has Carrie outstayed her welcome?

No.

Is she actually a monster?

No.

And we've just not noticed until now?

No.

Well, I wrote an opinion piece about this for Mama Mia this week.

There's a link in the show notes and it has ignited a passionate debate,

which is the kind of debate I can really get behind

because it involves imaginary people who wear high heels

with their pajamas in their own apartment.

Now, we aren't going to recap last week's episode

where Carrie pushed so many people over the edge

because we already did that.

We'll put a link in the show notes to our subscriber episode.

But the general gist of my view in my opinion piece

and right now in my heart,

is that even though she's always been the main character of the show,

her main character energy has really tipped into narcissism.

And look, this is the cardinal sin on this show,

being a very bad friend.

Holly disagrees verminly.

Holly defend Carrie.

I think that people have such an issue with Carrie

because they don't like child-free women over 50 or 40.

Disagree.

Everybody struggles with the depiction of a woman

who has centered herself in her life

and everybody else has other people to deal with and take care of.

And Carrie lives her life exactly how Carrie wants to

and I am bloody here for it.

Interesting.

Also, your piece was great and it went nuts

because lots of people agree.

I know that Carrie is very unpopular.

She was awful this week.

She was an awful friend to Miranda.

I will put my hand up and say like the not following Miranda

out of the comedy concert where she got roasted.

She was confused about everything

and I was confused about why I was fucking her.

I have to go.

Sorry.

Same place.

Sorry.

This is the same place.

Ish.

That'll go in the annals of the bad friend.

But there were other things she did on that that were fine.

Like I relate to her and how complicated it is

when your friends with your friends X is

and there's an event and who's going to get there

and you can't always side with your friend

and be like you're right.

I'm going to cut him out of my life

because you cut him out of yours.

That's not real.

But my main thing is that I love that the depiction of Carrie

is like she's complicated

and sometimes she does shitty things.

Let her who has never ever done a shitty thing

throw the stones at Carrie.

I've had times in my life when I haven't been a great friend.

I've had times in my life when I haven't shown up for someone.

In that piece you cherry picked lots of times

that Carrie had been bad

and you ignored lots when she'd been good.

Like the time when she was the only one

who went to Miranda's mum's funeral

and stood up and walked down the aisle with her

to support her.

No, they all went.

They all went.

Stood up and went down the aisle with her

to be there for her.

She was there when her children's friends' babies were born.

She's a great friend.

Lots of the time.

I don't know.

Are those things just really obvious,

basic things you should do for a friend?

Absolutely not.

I remember watching Sex in the City

and always thinking Carrie was the worst.

No one knows.

Lots of people thought that,

but that's because she's selfish.

But when you originally watched the show,

your point about it's because she doesn't have children,

when I was watching the show,

all of them didn't have children.

Yeah, but they were all heading for that storyline

whereas Carrie was like, no.

There are so many instances where Carrie has been awful

and just thinking about this topic,

I was like, oh yeah.

Remember when Carrie sent Aiden to go and help Miranda

when she had slipped a disc in her back

and Miranda was naked on the bathroom floor?

That's a cancelable affair.

That was the point of the show.

It wasn't like, oh, that was fine.

Miranda was really upset about it

and she called her friend out for a like,

do you really want to watch a show about people

who only ever do exactly what they're supposed to do

and never upset anybody?

I think Carrie Bradshaw is materialistic.

She couldn't afford to put a deposit on her house

so she made Charlotte sell her ring

where she had $40,000 worth of shoes in her apartment.

Misrepresentation of history.

She did not make Charlotte do anything.

She made her feel bloody guilty.

She did what?

She guilted her until she did it.

Oh my God.

She did.

You people are so boring.

I think my biggest problem with her

and that's really interesting what you say about

the fact that she doesn't have children.

Or dependents.

She doesn't even want a cat.

She has a cat now.

She has a cat.

But that's what I mean.

She didn't even really want a cat.

We struggle with women like that.

We don't know what to do with them.

I don't know because I didn't feel that way

about Samantha necessarily.

And I know we haven't seen her in this new iteration

of the women in their 50s

so it's probably an unfair comparison.

To me though,

I'm the most materialistic, superficial,

shoes kind of person that exists.

So that doesn't bother me.

Neither does the wearing silly clothes.

I love all that.

I think I feel that she hasn't grown.

That she's still the same in her 50s

as she was in her 30s

and it's not cute anymore.

See, I disagree

because I think in these two seasons

she's much calmer.

She gets all the funny lines.

I think she's great.

I just,

I sometimes think I must be watching a different show

because to me,

I think she's grown an enormous amount

through the death of big.

I think there have been times when all of them

have been bad friends

and inverted commas.

And inverted commas remember at Big's Funeral

when Charlotte was making it all about herself

and Carrie had just going to leave it.

There are times when all of us fail

the people around us.

And I also struggle with the idea

that we only want to watch stories

and clearly we don't

because that's why this show is so iconic

with people who are perfect.

Like, I like that Carrie's flawed.

I like that she doesn't always follow the script.

I like that she's designed a life

that works for her.

Why not?

I think she fails the people around her a lot

and in quite painful ways.

She cheated on Aiden.

I cheated on people.

Am I the world's worst person?

In my history, I have done it.

Holly Wainwright, no.

Who hasn't?

You're not the worst.

But she cheated on her two big loves,

Aiden and Big.

Her not having children,

I don't mind.

I know lots and lots of women of that age

who don't have children.

But looking at Carrie as some sort of person

to put on a pedestal

because her life is exciting

and that kind of thing,

which we really did in the 90s and 2000s.

I'm sort of re-evaluating that

and thinking that this is a woman

who has no family.

She doesn't have to care for anybody.

It's not funny that she's never referenced parents.

None.

She's made one off-hand comment.

No parents, no siblings.

Even her friends are all pretty bloody self-sufficient.

I am looking at a woman

who it's not about children.

It's about not caring about anybody else.

But that's just not true

because her friends are her everything.

This has always been the point of this show.

You're saying it's not that she doesn't have children

but subconsciously we're uncomfortable

with a woman who isn't taking care of anyone,

whether it's aging parents or children

or her friends when they need it.

But I actually think it's unrealistic.

I think there are many examples over the canon of the show

when Carrie has turned up for people.

We're just not picking them out right now

because the whole point of the show is about friendship.

And how important it is to her.

And we can all say yes she did a shitty thing to Seema

when she forgot about the beach house

but she was mortified about it.

I just think when she was outside

the hairdressers talking to her about it

when Seema was like, we'll be fine.

We will.

I just need some space.

Carrie was devastated and she said

I know what happens when you give friendship space.

But Holly, that's about what Carrie wants,

not what Seema wants.

And actually would use that as another example

of Carrie not being a good friend

because Seema was saying I need space

and Carrie was saying I don't want that.

You're not allowed space.

But look, I think it's interesting

and if you remember this whole series

and the character of Carrie was based on Candice Bushnell

who wrote the original Sex and the City book

which was a novel.

But the character of Carrie Bradshaw

was deeply unlikeable.

Not every character has to be likeable, I agree.

But then when people say

that was awful,

you can't then insist

no, in fact, she is likeable because

I think she's both, like all of us.

I think there are some things that she does

that are very unlikable and flaky

and not great.

And I think there are some things that she does

that are brilliant and wonderful, like all of us.

She's complicated.

And I like complicated women in fiction.

I understand.

I just think that we've been sold this idea

even to ourselves

that she feels almost sacrilegious

to say,

is Carrie a bit of a dick?

And then think about her through this lens

because she's always been sold to us

as everyone wants to be the Carrie

who are you in your first group I'm the Carrie

like the main character,

aspirational, that's who you want to be.

And I think it's been interesting now to go

don't really want to be her life.

Actually that's not who I want to be

because I don't think her life seems

very fulfilling

and so judgmental.

But I would think the same thing about a man.

No you wouldn't.

I think the same thing about big.

I thought he was a monster.

So now we know that the show

is coming back

which I was as I say on the record saying

I don't think it is.

So I was like they're going to leave her on her own

in the apartment with the kitten.

Is that what's going to happen?

No, I don't think so.

It puts a lot less pressure on the last episode

coming back and they obviously knew this

when they wrote it because

you know the writers have to know

whether they have to do a complete

bow around the whole idea

and how are they going to leave Carrie forever

or whether they've got another chance.

So I think that what's going to happen

is that Aidan will say I can't come back

my kids need me.

I just actually don't really care

which I'm really surprised at.

I really don't care.

I'm not invested in her being with Aidan.

I'm really invested in her

and that's a shame.

I do care and I reckon

there's something about that last supper.

There'll be some tension in it.

I don't know if it'll be like a clear break

or a clear there together.

I think there'll be some ambiguity

to keep us watching for the next season

but something in that last supper

whether he says he's not coming back

and then he turns up for that

or somebody else turns up.

I just think that they've made it a big, big moment.

They love the symbolism of it

so I just reckon they're going to hone in on it.

Out Louders will be recapping it, of course,

as soon as it drops.

So you'll be able to listen to us talk about that

on a subscriber episode.

And just like that

I realise

you never know

Mother Mia Out Loud!

In 2023,

can a show

like the ABC's Q&A

still exist?

I ask this question

because since the original host Tony Jones

resigned from the show in 2019

there's been a revolving door of hosts

many of whom have expressed

that the amount of personal abuse

and trolling they have received

was untenable.

First, there was hanging out

with Tony Jones

who was untenable.

First, there was Haymish McDonald,

an experienced journalist who was Jones' replacement.

He held the hosting role for 18 months

before stepping down

and saying that while he didn't go into the job naively

he was surprised

by the extreme abuse

and how it jumped from social media

into the real world and real life

so frequently.

So he talked about people coming up to him on the street

people coming up to him at his home

and abusing him for things

like that on the show.

Most recently, Stan Grant resigned

from the hosting job in May of this year

citing grotesque racist abuse.

But he went a step further

and alluded to a far broader problem

with media.

Here's some of what he said.

Now, Grant has walked away

from the ABC and the media

after four decades

because he wants to change the toxic

global news culture.

He'll be working out of Monash University

in a role as Professor

of Social Media

and he'll be working out of

Monash University

in a role as Professor

of Social Media

and he'll be working out of

Monash University

in a role as Professor of Journalism

and Director of the Constructive Institute.

He said,

I've been in the crosshairs

of the worst of our cultural pylons

and I think we can all learn

including me, we can all learn

how to do this better.

Of his decision, he said, this is not just

some sort of abstract idea

our democracies around the world are in retreat.

The media framing, debate

and discussion around conflict

is a cancer on our society

and the fact that while we the media

are part of the problem, we have an obligation

to be part of the solution.

While the huge pylon against

Grant started when

he spoke on the ABC about the impact

of colonialism ahead of King Charles's

coronation, I don't think

it's a coincidence that it was during

his tenure as host of Q&A

that he decided to quit

a four decade media career.

Q&A is now being hosted by

Patricia Cavellis and the future

show according to some reports

is uncertain.

I believe that Hamish McDonald, Stan Grant

and the rotating roster of hosts

are a symptom of the fact that a show

like Q&A simply cannot exist

in 2023.

Public discourse has broken down too much

we do not know how to engage and disagree

respectfully anymore and we're too intolerant

of people with opposing views

to our own. The complaints

and the abuse and the demands on a public

square show like Q&A

therefore make it entirely

untenable.

Mia do you think the current cultural moment

is incompatible with shows like Q&A?

I think that's a really interesting idea

there's a few things that are very specific to Q&A

first of all it was

built not on the back of Twitter

but the idea of the tweets

alongside was very much

the sort of Greek chorus

of everybody could have their

view right and

that I don't think was good

I know it was groundbreaking at the time

and they only just stopped it like

a couple of weeks ago. That then

turned it into

a sort of a gladiatorial

picker team.

The second thing I think the coincidence

and it's not a coincidence of

why the hosts that came after Tony

Jones were

trolled so mercilessly

Tony Jones was a straight white man

the hosts that they've had afterwards

have been more inclusive

in terms of Hamish McDonald

is gay

Stan Grant is an indigenous man

Patricia Carvelas is a gay woman

so we know that if you are

in any group other than a straight

white man you cop

it a lot more. You are trolled a lot

more online and the kind

of abuse you get is different

it's much more personal

it's often much more violent and threatening

and you feel obviously much

more threatened by it.

Another thing I was going to say is that the ABC

has not done itself any favours

in that it used to have a time slot

of 9.30 on a Monday night that's when everybody

watched it. The ABC moved it to Thursday

and that proved to put it in prime time

because Four Corners is on an 8.30

on a Monday so they couldn't move it to Monday

8.30 so then they decided to move it

and it became immediately relevant

everyone had been rusted on

a little bit like 60 minutes used to be on at 7.30

on a Sunday night and was iconic

in that time slot

but who knows when it's on now

and I think that can really erode a brand

because people just can't find it anymore

having said all that I think you're completely right

I think that no one

wants to change their mind

anymore and I think that when Q&A

first started

that was different. People were more

open to hearing other people's

views and I know that we found this

on the internet is that it's different

now people don't say I disagree

with you they say

you need to delete what you wrote

or you need to apologise for what you said

or they will say unfollow

I can't listen anymore because I disagreed

with something that you said.

A hundred percent I think you're absolutely right

Claire I think that it's

almost cute to think about

what Q&A used to be

when on a Monday night it set the agenda

for the week the news agenda for the week

it had its hashtag quanda

it was like join the conversation

it's almost cute to think about that now

because that conversation

is such a toxic

mire of yelling and hatred

that it's actually

so depressing to see what has happened

during that time and I think

that it is as you say me

people don't want to change their minds

but more than that they don't want to

tolerate listening or

seeing a person who

puts forward a different

position and look

I understand that

so it feels dangerous

in times of big debates

to be presenting the other

side of an issue

like the voice right or like

marriage equality at the time

and there are lots of very valid arguments

about platforming people

who are arguing about human rights issues

is it's really

thorny but on the other hand

the level of expectation

that you say just interrupt for one second

you say the other side

the people on that side think

that you're the other side right

so it goes both ways

so say the marriage equality debate

there are plenty of people

in the LGBTQI plus community

who believe that

giving a platform to people

who were arguing against their right

to be married just gave a free pass

to a whole lot of bigots who were debating

their basic human rights

and whether or not they had a right to love

in the same way that straight people did

was that helpful?

Well you'd have to say the government shouldn't have put it to a referendum

like that's not the fault of Q&A necessarily

no no no it's not the front of Q&A

but what I mean is

those kind of examples and massive cultural moments

the idea of like

showing both sides

is tarnished and tricky

like what I'm saying is I understand the argument

about not platforming views

that can be co-opted in hate

right I totally understand that

or in misinformation like anti-vaxxers

100% so you're like we've got a COVID debate

do we have to have

the person there who's saying the vaccine

is invented by Bill Gates and they're trying

to control us all

so I understand the limitations of free speech

and I understand all those concerns

but for example this week on Q&A

and the viewership has plummeted

a really long way

they had their lowest ever viewership

fair enough it was up against a Matilda's game

or something a couple of weeks ago when they barely got 100,000 people

in five cities to watch that show

which is amazing it used to be

newsmaking exactly now nobody even knows

it's on but this Monday just gone

Tina Arena was on as a musical

guest so she wasn't sitting on the

panel I think they started doing this when

Stan Grant was presenting they often would finish

with the song I actually really liked it

yeah me too on Monday's show they finished

with a song from Tina Arena she was not

there to give any opinions or whatever

but of course a storm erupts

or at least the media report that a storm

erupts because Q&A is

platforming Tina Arena who during the

Covid lockdowns was critical of

Dan Andrews' Victorian Government

and who has been a supporter in the past

of Scott Morrison so it's like

oh Q&A platforming

Scott Morrison's mould you know

like oh my god and you're like

she's just there to sing a song

Patricia Cavill is just literally at the end

throw story and goes and Tina Arena

is here with her new song Blah

and so if platforming

people has become so fraught

I mean I spoke on Friday about this

around Kitchen Cabinet and Annabelle Crabb

and last night she had Peter Dutton on

like it is so fraught

to say I want to talk to this person

this person is on my TV screen

without it being an endorsement of everything

they've ever said and everything they've ever thought

and we're definitely I mean

I just think that it is actually

impossible for a show like Q&A

to exist in the way that it did

six years ago and that's actually

really sad because I remember

watching it and seeing like

it could be a really hot button

political issue I agree

there are certain ones that they never

touched like Vax

stuff now

it feels like it has

to be somewhat

safe in order to

go to air I think the other

thing that's made it really hard is identity

politics and having

a gay man

or an indigenous man as the host

means nobody can possibly see them

as objective because

it's like oh well you're going to sympathize

with the left because I just

assumed that that's what political party

you align with because of your identity

and in both cases

both Hamish McDonald and Stan Grant are

excellent journalists who do not have

predictable perspectives on anything

and were actually very good at

moderating debate but I think

the other thing I've noticed in clips

that I've seen of Q&A over

the last few months is that

the tenets of disagreeing

respectfully don't make

for the entertainment we're demanding

which is kind of what Stan

Grant is saying right when he says that the

media has a part to play in this because

we only really want to report on Q&A

if people are throwing shoes

and yelling at each other. Exactly we want

contempt we want anger

and in order to win the audience

you do have to make things personal

you do have to call people names

you have to talk over people

you have to make it about your own

lived experiences you have to

use I which often

is something that if you're teaching somebody

how to disagree respectfully it's not just

using your own personal experience

you do have to put down other people's beliefs

and if you listen you're seen

as being complicit. Literally if you were

teaching a child how to disagree respectfully

all of those things

do not translate into television

in 2023 which is such a shame

are we just addicted and programmed by all

our algorithms as we know for extremity

is it just boring if people are

sitting there debating politics and political

issues and they're not trading insults

and so therefore it's not good TV

yeah I think that

they've also been hamstrung

by the nature of the show

has meant that fewer and fewer people have wanted

to go on it so you know

I've been on it a couple of times but a long time ago

I said I was never going to go do it

again because it's just like there's nothing

to be gained there's only stuff to be lost

which is awkward because

because our favourite person

in the world, Jesse Steven

is going to be on it on Monday

I'm sure there'll be something to be gained from him

but anyway go on

well good luck Jesse

seriously good luck Jesse

she'll be able to handle it

she's incredibly careful and well

considered and has

less

impulse control issues than me

correct obviously I don't do any more live TV

any more because it's the worst format for me

but when the producer

said to me that every time she approaches

a woman the woman says no

and then suggests another woman

whereas she said the men never say no

the men say yes not all the men say yes

I think now more and more people

who just have moderate

views don't want to go on the show

because if you have a moderate

view you are attacked by both sides

and so you end up

with a show full of people

with more extreme views

who want to go on grandstand and virtue signal

to their tribe on social media

and also are looking for claps

from the audience we have a joke

me and a friend when we watch it

about how all you have to do is say

we should do more and everyone claps

like about any issue

we should do more and then that'll make everybody clap

and it's just it means nothing

I think the other thing is

the questions that people ask

have become

laden in contempt

you're asking something to somebody

and you're angry at them when you're asking them

and you're also asking

often times

impossible questions

I feel like it's times just come

it's been nice

I agree but the reason I think it's sad

is because I think public debate is really important

and it doesn't even have to be debate

I don't even want to frame it in like

so somebody wins and somebody loses

100% but one of the things that people

always tell us that they like about our show

not to be all back patty about this

is that we can disagree

without it becoming toxic

and I think that that is something

that people actually do want

I don't think it's that they don't want it

I think if you frame everything

as a competition and a debate

it becomes too tricky to actually

make any changes and I just think

it's a shame that that show is dying

in lots of ways because

there's information from all the same old idiots

on the internet or us of course

different idiots

who are clearly not idiots

that is an outrageous comment

I just said you might

you might need a bit of cleaning of your ears

because I just said

I can go on and on and on

we know

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do the people who've known you longest

know you best

I read a remarkable advice column this week

where a woman had asked a question about her obligations

to be a good daughter to her mother

even as her mother's actions were

in her view, thoughtless and selfish

and the advice columnist Catherine Jesemorton

wrote some wise advice

about actions you can forgive and those you can't

but then she wrote more broadly

about how culturally we're being encouraged

towards eliminating relationships

that no longer serve us

and I'm using that a little bit in quotes

because that's a phrase you hear a lot

or who we want to be

whether they're our friendships or our family

let me read you a bit that really made me think

she said

it's easy to forget in the midst of coping

with flaws that it's rare and important

to be known by someone for your whole life

I sometimes wonder

if all our lifelong journeys of entrepreneurial

self-improvement

are making it too easy to lose sight

of the pleasure of being intensively

known by someone

our culture's emphasis on self-improvement

whether it's through wellness or professional

accomplishment or whatever

suggests that our old selves weren't

worth knowing anyway

we're looking for the people who will celebrate

our future selves, not our past selves

and we move through life banishing

the past in a flurry of insistence

that we have no regrets

I was also really thinking

about this advice in terms of siblings

because Claire had brought

an article that you really wanted to discuss

about the longest relationship

of our lives and I was like

oh I don't know if that's true

so we've been discussing it

we asked some of the mum and me a team

what their relationships with their siblings are like

in my family I am

10 years older than my siblings who are twins

growing up

because it was such a big difference

we didn't really have anything in common ever

when it became a teenager

that gap became a lot more obvious

it was really hard for me to build a relationship

with a teenage boy

yeah we just never saw eye to eye

and didn't have too much to do with each other

and I hope that that bridge will close

as we get older

I have a twin brother, we've both been really close

growing up we went to the same primary school

but obviously being twins we do have

that competitive side that takes over

every now and then

we're both now 23

so we do butt heads because we are still

living at home and sharing a car in a bathroom

but he is

someone that I run to first for advice

and I know that I'm the same for him

and I think we just have an extra close bond

because we are twins

and we've gone through every stage of life together

biologically

I'm the girl in the middle of two brothers

but my stepsister is my best friend

we've been in each other's lives

for 26 years and while we used to

absolutely hate each other growing up

we're best friends now

I've always thought there's something magical

about the connection you have

with your siblings or for those who don't have siblings

cousins or family

friends or just those people that you've known

for most if not all of your life

and for a lot of people

sibling bonds are the longest

relationships of our lives

we know siblings before we meet

our partners and we'll

know them after our parents die

what I loved about

the article I read this week which is called

the longest relationships of our lives

in the Atlantic was it talked about

this idea and it's what the

advice columnist

touches on a little bit

this idea of

dynamic re-centering

which the author Angela

Chen defines as the process of siblings

coming together later in life

to evaluate and re-write

their bond and often

it can be triggered by an external event

like the death of a parent or pregnancy

or birth and so on what does that mean

like they come together and re-establish

a new relationship as

adults without the baggage of their

childhood relationship yes

and I

reckon there are a lot of siblings

who don't know that you

can do that that you can

redefine your relationship

but a lot of people notice it

across the lifespan

I think it's very hard to

redefine any familial relationships

like parent, child

siblings

one of the things that can be quite funny

when you're an adult and

you might have a family of your own

but then when you're

back with your family of origin

you regress and you become

someone that your partner or even your

children doesn't recognise

because you have a certain role in your family

of origin that's obviously different

to the role that you take in your

relationship or in your family that you've had

if you have

a really prescriptive way

of defining a particular

relationship with your mum or your dad

or your siblings

I think it's often going to fall short

and there's going to be those tensions

where you go back into it and

you feel like you regress so many people I know

and I feel it as well go back to my childhood

home and start doing things

that I'm like what the hell where did

teenage Claire come from the ghost of teenage Claire

it's mostly becoming petulant I find

but I

spoke on this podcast about being scared

about Jesse having a baby because our

relationship would change

but our relationship has never been

as close and uncomplicated

as it is right now

there's something about

a major life moment

that allows for that dynamic

re-centering

where you're just focused on something

different and you're playing different roles

and you can kind of leave behind

any tensions

and I think perhaps maybe

former generations

were better at doing this

you just kind of accepted that things were fluid

over the lifespan whereas

now that we're very

into toxic family

members and people who don't serve us

and people holding us back

setting boundaries, cutting people off

yes we look at people

and think that we can just let them go

by the wayside when there actually is

something incredibly beautiful

about having a lifelong relationship

with someone that changes

over the course of your lifespan

Holly I feel like you feel

differently about this

I just have a different relationship

with my family and I think that

both of you

have very close relationships

with your family

they're very very central to your life

right

whereas I probably represent a different group of people

who I love my family

I have to obviously put that disclaimer up in front

like I really really adore them

I wouldn't argue that they know me best

so I have a brother and I love him

but we have not lived in the same city

since I was 19

nearly every big event that's happened in my

adult life and all the things that have happened

to me and the same for him has happened

out of sight and same for him

so we love each other

and we know each other very well

because obviously we share parents and we lived in the same house

and we know the childhood

version of Holly and Tom really well

but his old friends would know him

better than I do his former partners

would know him better than I do

his kids would know him better than I do

do you know what I mean like I think

that it's not

necessarily true that for everybody

it's somebody who knows you

excellently and I do know that for some people

and this isn't necessarily true for me because my brother

is awesome but I know for some people

there is a real

problem and tension with always being

categorized as the person you used to be

especially if you've made a lot of work

put in a lot of effort to try

and change certain things about yourself

it can be and I hate

to use the word because I know everybody hates it

but it can be really toxic to

walk back into a house or back into a relationship

with someone who refuses to see you

as anything other than who you once were

and that can be

little diggly things like

oh as if you like exercise because you

are shit at PE at school

or it can be big things like

a way you might react to a big emotional moment

that you've actually

really struggled to reprogram how you're going to do that

but they're going to be like of course you're going to be upset about that

or of course you're going to think this

like that can actually be really

limiting and difficult for people

so the idea of cutting off all relationships

with people who don't serve us

has become a little bit aspirational

that you should only have people in your life

at all times who are like

your greatest cheerleaders

and who think you're amazing

and who are useful to you in some way

on your self-improvement journey

I don't like that, that's bullshit

but I also really respect and understand

people who do not want to be held back

by

family or old friends who have an

old outdated version of them

stuck in their head. I think it can be both

because I felt

the significance of the sibling bond

recently when my mum lost two of her brothers

in a relatively short period of time

and speaking to her one night

we were kind of trying to

unpack her grief because obviously

she was grieving for her brothers

and their families and their futures

but she was also grieving

for the living part

of her and her family's history

that had gone with them

so there's a line

in the siblings article that says

siblings are a form of memory that lives outside ourselves

and so for you

Tom

is the only person who holds

the memory of your childhood that isn't you

and so there's something

really special

and profound about that

that obviously coexist

with all the frustrations

of being a sibling

but that is also

quite similar to what the

advice article said about

considering a relationship with somebody

in life and considering a relationship

with them after they've died

which really struck a chord with you

Absolutely, I mean I think

it's interesting because

having said all I've said about my

relationship with my brother last year

I went back to England by myself

for the first time since I've had kids

and my parents weren't there

which was also for the first time in a long time

they were on holiday so my brother

and I got to spend time together as adults

in a way that we have actually never done

like ever done

it was amazing, it was great

because we live in different countries

if we're together it's because of the whole family's together

and my parents are the social directors

of that relationship

or we'll go over to Tom's for dinner

we'll all go here, we'll all do that

me and my brother have never had

a dependent established relationship as adults

really, like that's familial

because we don't live in the same place

So was it like getting to know...

It was great because it was stranger

Really, well no, I'm not arguing that

we don't know each other at all, of course we do

and it was great

because I can see

all these familiar family traits

in him and me and my parents

and we're all like the messy mess

like we all are and like of course that's what's happening

and we also of course are deeply

bonded by our parents

and what's going on with them and all of those things

and it was actually amazing and I loved it

and it made me really question

what our relationship

will be like when our parents aren't there anymore

because it would actually be

really easy for it to disappear

for it to disintegrate

because he's

a man who's not going to call me

every five minutes like he's not that guy

we've been talking a lot during the World Cup

on our whatsapp family whatsapp

it would actually be quite easy

to let that relationship almost entirely

disappear and that would be terrible

because it is as you say, living history

and obviously his kids are part of

and all those things

I think for me that experience isn't frustrating

it's got some poignancy to it

but I do have people in my life

for whom it is really frustrating

where they walk back into their family

and they're immediately put in quite a

negative

frustrating position because they're not allowed

to see who they've become

outside of the family

but it could redefine your relationship

that whole kind of

de-centering could happen

once your parents are gone

because your sibling is the only person

who understands

and a lot of people say that

there's a bonding that happens

because there is only one person

who can stand there and understand

exactly how you feel

and all the complicated emotions

Matilda's fans

which is everybody, I have a recommendation

and it's a special bonus episode

of No Filter, we're dropping tomorrow with Mackenzie Arnold

I'm so excited

I did her only podcast interview in Australia

she's about to leave, I think today

she leaves to go back to

England where she plays for West Ham

what is West Ham?

It's a London football team

West Ham is a London football team

so lots of Matilda's play in England

some of them quite a few play in my hometown of Manchester

but lots of them play in London including Sam Currie

plays for Chelsea and obviously Mackenzie

who plays for West Ham

she's the goalie if anyone's wondering

she's the Australian Defence Minister

I'm so excited, was she great?

she was great

I wish she'd come in, I would have all cuddled her though

and it would have been uncomfortable

embarrassing, I nerded out

and asked all my questions like

when we see you getting off the bus

you've all got your headphones in

what are you listening to?

I actually am quite different

I listen to a bit of country

I like just chilling out

I don't like to be stuffed in my ear

it sort of gets me going a bit too early

you still have at least an hour

it is when we get into the changing before we head out to Warmer

I asked her about Nervous Wheeze

I asked her about

pre-game rituals and post-game rituals

I asked her about all of those things

I display my appalling knowledge of

soccer, I apologise profusely

for not knowing the rules better

I made up for it with my enthusiasm

out loud as if you want to listen to that interview with Mackenzie Arnold

there will be a link in the show notes

if you're looking for something else

to listen to, on yesterday's

subscriber episode

we released a special Ask Me Anything

by we, it was me and Holly

because you were not here

so we sold it on

it was, where Holly and Mia spoke about

how they cope with imposter syndrome

and share a unique insight into their friendship

and how they manage it at work

I'm personally really excited to listen to this one

I haven't listened to it yet

and I'm really keen to see

what the dynamic between you guys was like

when it was a bit more private

I'm so keen

I know we were quite honest about things

it was really weird us being in the studio talking to each other like that

just felt like us being out for dinner

I quite loved it

there's a link in the show notes if you want to listen to that now

thank you for listening to Australia's number one

news and pop culture show

this episode was produced by Emily Incazillas

Blackman with audio production

from Leah Porges

we'll see you tomorrow

bye

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Machine-generated transcript that may contain inaccuracies.