Mamamia Out Loud: Yes, No, And What Just Happened

Hi Mamma Mia listeners, Beck Melrose here, dropping into your feed to talk about our

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Should I buy or rent?

How does voting work?

Should I be investing my money?

How do I even talk to my mechanic?

And most importantly, where the hell do I park my car?

I'm Ann Burnham and I'll be the first to admit we obviously still have some things

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But that is where our show comes in.

And we know what you're thinking, Beck and Ann, why are you even making a podcast when

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Because you haven't Googled it, have you?

No.

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Hello and welcome to Mamma Mia Out Loud, what women are actually talking about on Monday,

the 16th of October.

I'm Mia Friedman and I'm in the driving seat for one more day while Holly is away.

I'm Claire Stevens and I took a bite of an apple just before I said my name, which seems

unprofessional and also chaotic, so I'm sorry.

And I'm Claire Murphy.

You normally hear me hosting Mamma Mia's daily news podcast, The Quickie.

And for all intents and purposes today, feeling in for Holly, but so you don't get confused,

just call me Murph, because there are two clairs on the show today.

And on the show today, over the weekend, Australia overwhelmingly voted no at the referendum for

an Indigenous voice to parliament.

We unpack what led the no campaign success and where the yes vote went wrong.

Plus, won't someone think of the horny parents?

Are teenagers the reason that parents stop having sex?

And have you ever met a relaxed woman?

Chances are you haven't, but first.

In case you missed it, do you feel just a little bit meh?

Maybe you have for weeks or even months, or maybe it feels like everyone around you just

isn't quite feeling 100%.

Since the early days of the pandemic, researchers have studied long COVID, which has more than

200 associated symptoms, the most common of which things like fatigue, breathlessness

and cognitive difficulties, memory problems or brain fog.

And a recent study has identified the existence of a long cold, long lasting health effects

from other respiratory conditions, such as colds or flus or pneumonia that are currently

going unrecognised.

So some of the most common symptoms of the long cold include coughing, stomach pain,

diarrhea, that stuff that so many of us just constantly have.

And you're like, oh, well, I'm just going through a weird phase.

These symptoms were reported an average of 11 weeks after the infection.

And apparently this isn't a new phenomenon.

Like doctors have known this for a very long time, that these kind of viruses, like you

have long standing effects.

But I feel like I've had a long cold for about 15 years.

Do you guys feel like you've got just something lingering in the immune system?

I don't.

But a few years ago, there was something called the 100 day cough that seemed to go around

in winter.

I don't get a lot of colds, Claire.

I have a banging immune system, just quietly.

I get over stuff super quick.

For example, when I did get COVID on the Thursday, I had COVID so bad, I thought I

needed to go to hospital.

And then on Friday, it was like I'd never had COVID.

Like that's how quickly I can get over things.

So sorry to be bragging.

Do you think that's because you don't work in an office?

I don't work in the office generally.

So that does help.

Yeah.

So I don't come into contact with a huge amount of people.

I also live in regional Australia where there's less people.

So I'm desperately lonely, but my immune system is amazing.

This moment of disagreement does not define us and it will not divide us.

We are not yes voters or no voters.

We are all Australians.

And it is as Australians together that we must take our country beyond this debate

without forgetting why we had it in the first place.

At all times in this debate, I've levelled my criticism at what I consider to have been

a bad idea to divide Australians based on their heritage or the time at which they came

to our country.

The coalition like all Australians wants to see Indigenous disadvantage addressed.

We just disagree on the voice being the solution.

This is a very sad moment in the country's history.

I think it will be at least two generations before Australians are capable of putting

their colonial hatreds behind them and acknowledging that we exist.

Firstly, I want to thank the Australian people for believing in our nation, in our great

nation, in the goodwill of this country and understanding that the vast majority of Australians

want what's best for each and every one of us, including our most marginalised Indigenous

Australians.

There's a call for a week of reflection and silence and that we will respect that because

I've been in positions where we've lost things and where you put your heart and soul into

it and it's tough when you don't come out with that victory.

So we'll respect that and then we'll sit down and have those conversations.

Those voices you just heard are a collective of people who were responding to the Voice

to Parliament referendum on Saturday night.

Politicians and activists who were either elated over the decision or deflated over

the no result.

Let's have a look at where we're at on the Monday after a referendum where we decidedly

said no to an Indigenous Voice to Parliament.

This is a really tricky space to live in at the minute because in the lead-up to that

referendum there was a lot going on, there was a lot being said, a lot of it started

to get quite nasty, racist, no camps versus yes camps and speaking of dividing the nation,

this referendum definitely did that but not in the way that we were being told it was

going to divide us.

On the other side of it you've got yes voters who are very disappointed and you've got

no voters who are relieved and I say this from a place of understanding because at

the last referendum I was 21, old enough to vote, this was for the Republic and to put

a preamble in the Constitution recognising First Nations peoples and I'm sad to say that

I voted no back then.

I'm so surprised to hear that, Clare.

As many people are and it's because at the time this campaign was very successful as

it has been this time around.

I was a yes voter but then when I was told the model that this Republic would look like

and this is the reason why we were allowing Parliament to create this model of the Voice

after we agreed to it or not was because in the last referendum we got given a model

that we hated so we went oh we don't trust the government the same way we're saying

we don't trust the government now so on the day after that referendum when the no result

came back I felt like we dodged a bullet.

I felt like we had stopped the country from potentially becoming something that we didn't

want and I felt really justified in my no vote and I felt like people would understand

given time what we'd done to help save Australia from itself.

That's not the case in this case.

I definitely regret saying no back then.

I don't get to choose the Prime Minister.

I wouldn't have cared who picks the President or whichever model we would have ended up

with in the end.

The only thing that would have changed would have been that we wouldn't no longer be a

colonial outpost to Britain that would have been the only real difference and First Nations

people would have been recognised in the Constitution.

So this summer and I understand where no voters are feeling today but when you look

at this whole process and how politicised it became, how point-scoring it became and

then you think about the hundreds of people who contributed to the Uluru Statement from

the heart which is where this came from in the beginning it was not a government implementation

it was from First Nations people and then when you look at how First Nations voters

voted overwhelmingly yes including the family and the region where Jacinta Nampin-Jingar

Price comes from she's a prominent no campaigner but her community even voted majority yes.

So it should come back to First Nations people where this discussion started and where it

should have stayed.

It should have stayed out of all of this governmental bullshit excuse my French because when Alban

18 months ago or so said I'm going to do this we were a majority support of it and then

it took 18 months for the no campaign to undo that and it's really disappointing how do

you guys feel about it today?

I wanted to just talk about that for a moment because when it was first announced when Alban

Ezi became our prime minister.

I begin by acknowledging the traditional owners of the land on which we meet I pay my respect

to their elders past present and emerging and on behalf of the Australian Labor Party

I commit to the Uluru Statement from the heart and forward.

And support for it was really really high it was something around 70% now by the end

of this campaign which finished on Saturday it had almost halved so I want to ask the

question which we won't be able to answer definitively but what did the no campaign

do right and where did the yes campaign go wrong because a lot of Australians started

as yes and moved over to no so what changed Claire do you think?

I've been reading a lot of analysis about this because I am fascinated by it and my

initial reaction I was so emotional on Saturday night I think I was emotional at how quickly

we knew the result that voting hadn't even closed in Western Australia and we knew that

it was going to be a no.

I was so emotional about the fact that my state voted no and the first conversations

people around me were having was where did the yes campaign go wrong and I was really

frustrated by that because I felt like it was victim blaming to some extent I was sort

of thinking well why are we holding the yes campaign to some impossible standard where

we were meant to communicate in some impossible way that I can't imagine how we could have

done it and yet the no campaign spread mis and disinformation and we're not interrogating

that.

It didn't only and I think it's also important to say that we know that there are out louders

who voted yes and who voted no and I think that one of the problems was that parts of

the yes campaign tried to make it seem like everyone who was voting no was racist and I

don't think that's fair and I don't think that's true and I think it's really important

to say that.

And it seems like from all the numbers that are coming out in terms of specific electorates

what happened was the yes campaign focused on inner city and that was sort of already

going to be in favour and totally ignored rural and regional areas and culturally and

linguistically diverse Australians totally ignored them and there's really interesting

research that shows the amount of people who were not living in cities who in the lead

up to the referendum did not know there was a referendum, did not know what they were

being asked, I think that it's the disengagement that is the huge, huge problem that we missed

a huge proportion of people and what reached them was the no campaign or the scare tactics

as you were talking about Claire.

The yes campaign did not reach them at all and I think that is so scary and I think it's

evidence that it's almost like we live into Australia's.

Yeah, I also think there was a lack of detail, there wasn't a clear message.

I think that the no campaign had a few things going for it.

First of all, the fact that no referendum has succeeded in Australia without bipartisan

support.

So the minute that Peter Dutton said we are voting no and we will campaign for no, he

could have just said we are sitting this one out and everyone can vote, you know, he could

have been neutral or he could have said we're going to make this a bipartisan issue, then

it would have been very different.

I think that the indigenous no campaigners, including the conservative no campaigners like

Warren Mundine and just into Nampo and Jimba Price and then the far left, no campaigners

like Lydia Thorpe, I think a lot of non-indigenous people thought well, but there are indigenous

people who are saying no, therefore maybe I should say no as well.

I think that they were very effective with their messaging and it was a complicated

thing to explain.

I think if you look in the comments sections of the referendum no result, you can see a

consistent from the no voters who now feel confident enough to speak up because they

were told in the lead up to this referendum that they were idiots, they were stupid, uneducated

and racist, which is unfair.

It just obviously shows that some of us get our information from one place, some people

get their information from others and we exist in our little bubbles of influence and it's

very hard as we're finding more and more and more in the post-Trump era to break away

from those bubbles, algorithm service what we want to read and we get it over and over

and over again, but these no voters now have said, this is why I felt this way.

You made me feel like an idiot even though I was reading these things that were served

to me and I was understanding, but the comments sections show a lot of these people saying,

but so many Aboriginal people voted no.

So many elders told me to vote no and whether that's true or not, that's what they were

served even though the numbers show us that overwhelmingly Indigenous Australians voted

yes, that is a truth for them that still exists.

So it is really hard for us now to work on getting a clear message to anybody when they

don't exist in our bubble.

Like how do you break free from that now when we live and exist in an algorithm?

You really can't, it's very difficult.

If we don't all watch Free to Air TV, we're not going to see John Farnham telling us that

we're the voice like it just doesn't happen now.

And I think the sense is that there was kind of an elite who were telling people how to

vote and people did not like that, they resisted that.

To think about the number of huge companies that came out and said, we're yes.

Like from reading comment sections, that seems to have worked against the yes campaign, that

people were saying, if a mining company is a yes, then I'm a no, because that is totally

hypocritical that you are mining Indigenous land and then saying you're yes to a voice.

I really do think that this is a moment of reckoning in terms of the discourse, in terms

of media.

It's made me think a lot about what our role is in media, that perhaps my method of communication

is wrong, that by being passionate and by seeing this as such a moral issue, that in

some ways you alienate people.

But I also think the biggest thing that seems to have come out of this is disengagement,

is not that necessarily people felt really, really strongly, but just that they went,

what am I voting for?

If I don't know, vote no.

That seems to be it.

And apparently even at voting booths in regional Australia, there weren't posters.

They were totally neglected and that really frustrates me.

But that costs money and someone has to pay for that.

So I know that there were corporate donations, but the government said we are not providing

funding for the yes campaign or the no campaign.

So what was interesting to me, I live in a teal seat and all the voting booths near me

had like a million posters.

I don't know if yours is the same, but all yes.

I watched the same thing on social media.

There are some sort of left wing, small little media accounts that I follow and they were

just like, yes, yes, yes every day.

And I was like, dudes, you're preaching to the choir.

And what's interesting is that I knew people whom you know one who were voting no and I

knew people who knew no one who were voting yes.

And so I think it's what you say about, we're not just in our bubbles on social media, but

we're in our bubbles in our electorates.

So the teal seats all voted resoundingly yes, but the rural seats voted resoundingly no.

So I agree with you, without a single source of truth anymore, I think we're looking at

almost like a post information reality with every election.

And I think algorithms have a lot to answer for because the fact is, if you're looking

at communities that aren't reading ABC News, that aren't listening to mum, me or out loud,

they're consuming different media.

What people are overwhelmingly consuming is their social media.

And we talked about it on the show before that the no side was far more interesting from

an algorithmic perspective.

That seeing an Indigenous person say, I don't support the voice, that was always going to

get a whole lot more engagement.

And therefore that is what reached people who were otherwise disengaged.

And now all we can do is respect the week of silence that Indigenous leaders have called

for this week, just to let things settle, allow everything to calm down, allow people

to heal and grieve depending on where they're at.

And then we start the conversation about what next, what now, what do we do from here?

Because the systems that are currently in place, as we now know, are definitely not

functioning in the benefit of First Nations Australians.

So what do we do now?

That's a conversation for next week.

And just anyone listening who is an Indigenous person who voted yes or people who are part

of the yes campaign, I'm really thinking of those people who have been involved in this

from the beginning and who have given years and years and unimaginable hours to pave

a way forward.

And Australia just said, no, so we're thinking of you.

And I can't imagine how difficult this time is.

How are the parents of teenagers ever meant to have sex again?

That was the headline of an article in New York Mag this week that has many people nodding

their heads off.

Elizabeth Passarella is 46 years old.

She's been married to her husband for 18 years.

They have three kids and they still enjoy having sex with each other.

However, this is increasingly impossible.

She writes, at 10pm, an hour where my husband and I used to be alone, we now have company.

If we are on the couch, our teenager is standing two feet from our faces blocking the TV, telling

us a story of something that happened at soccer practice or complaining about homework.

If we are in the kitchen, she's in the doorway.

If we're in bed, she's at the foot of it.

Occasionally, her younger brother, a tween, nipping at the heels of her later bedtime,

is also up.

It's as if, upon sensing that their parents might like to be alone, they decide it is

the ideal time to discuss what holiday camp they'd like to attend, nine months from now.

More than once in the past month, I've fallen asleep before my teen, sometimes when she

is mid-sentence.

And while, yes, yes, it's so nice that she enjoys our company, I just want to know when

I'm supposed to have sex.

I love this story.

She writes just so brilliantly about how, when your kids are little, it's hectic, but

they go to bed, so you have your evenings to yourself if you want to have special cuddles.

These days, not only do you lose that window, but if you have teenagers, there's every chance

that they might have their boyfriend or girlfriend staying over, so they might be the only ones

having sex under your roof, something that I know some people struggle with.

So should parents of teenagers just give up and pass the sex baton onto their horny teenagers

and just try to get some sleep instead?

Claire Murphy.

I am so uncomfortable with this conversation talking about parents having sex.

I know that I shouldn't care, I know that it shouldn't bother me, but every pop culture

reference I've ever been exposed to in my entire life has told me that thinking about

your parents having sex is the most disgusting thing in the entire world, and it should make

me want to throw up.

Come on.

You're going to get some whipped cream on those teacups.

Nice.

Come back in the morning, Tootsie Rocks.

Nice.

Yay.

You see the cowboy hat on the door?

Cowboy hat is off the door.

So the thought about my parents getting jiggy with it is almost too much for me to even

think about.

Like I have to block any visual that might try and make its way into my brain, right?

But of course, it's happened when I was a teenager living in my parents' house.

I've overheard things, I've seen things, there's still burn into my brain now.

And so you don't want to pass that legacy on to your own children, right?

You don't want to be the image burnt into their brains when they're 40-something years

old, right?

But this is the thing now, back in my day, and this makes me sound very old, my parents

would never have allowed me to have a boyfriend stay over.

Like never.

I couldn't even get the question out before I was told that was inappropriate.

So I feel like parenting has changed so much now, and maybe this is a knock on of the helicopter

parenting generation where we want to make sure our kids are safe at all times, and so

having them experience their life under your own roof is a better idea than thinking they're

doing it in the back of a car down an alley somewhere, you know, and you're also providing

them with their pill or condom or whatever it is that's going to keep them safe.

Like I understand that I really do, but it's like at that crossroad between you and your

teen having sex at the same time, potentially in the same building, which fills all kinds

of ick.

Where do you like start and stop the information passing between the two?

Well maybe you just have everyone go to their room at nine o'clock.

What?

So in your brain you can go, oh, that's where my parents have sex.

Gross.

Okay, I have always thought, and I wonder if this is a thing.

You know when you overhear somebody having sex, anyone, your parents, the people who

live upstairs, a friend when you're away, whatever, there's something viscerally genuinely

quite traumatic about it.

What is that?

I wonder like, is there an evolutionary reason why we're so triggered?

Like I remember if I ever heard stuff when I was a kid, I felt scared.

Why?

Catholic repression?

Or is that some sort of thing where you're not meant to hear other people have sex?

I don't know.

It's such a personal, private thing though, don't you think that like hearing someone

else in the throes of passion feels like you're in the room with them almost?

Like it's such a private moment.

And it feels like they're not safe.

It's really strange.

But when I read this story, the thing I did think was, I mean I loved it, I loved the

tone of it, that she's like, excuse me, like my teenager is lingering around, like, and

the kind of imagery of this teenager who is so naive and so selfish, this teenager has

not for a second considered that her parents might actually want some time to themselves

because they're like...

Because her parents to her aren't even human yet, she's a teenager, she hasn't recognised

them as actual people yet.

She's like, sorry, what could be more interesting than me talking to you right now?

I reckon the best thing you could do is communicate and actually say, hey, at this time, we're

going to have some time to ourselves.

And I think what you were saying, Claire, about how we sort of live in this helicopter

era where we're providing contraception, we're talking to kids more about sex, probably the

best way to do that is role modelling it and saying, mum and dad need some private time

and you kind of have to respect that.

And I role model to you what my teenage person would do if my mum and dad said to me, at

nine o'clock, we're closing the door and mummy and daddy are having some special cuddle

time.

My teenage person would go, and that's fine, you guys are so disgusting and then I would

have gone and slammed a door somewhere.

And that's fine.

And you would have slammed a door and you would have done whatever weird teenage thing

like playing the Sims and you would have at least you would have been forewarned.

So maybe you would have put headphones on.

The other thing is that this writer specifically lives in New York and so lives in an apartment

where her daughter's room is like the next door over.

And I thought, oh, that's so true actually that when you don't live in the city, you

might have a bigger place where your parents are upstairs or whatever.

So you have a little bit of privacy.

I'm living in an apartment.

I don't know if I'll ever not live in an apartment.

I don't know how it's going to be possible to have any privacy between your kid and you.

But I do reckon that communication and saying this is how relationships work.

Mummies and daddies need private time.

I think it's probably for the best.

I love it.

Yeah, because I also think too, like the whole time I'd be having sexy times with my husband

in my brain would be like my child knows I'm doing this for him.

That's why parents learn to have sex quickly in the bathroom.

Yeah. Oh, God.

See, I don't want to know that because, you know, helicopter parents make helicopter

children. And this is something that I always have pointed out to people because I know

what it feels like when you always hover over them, they firstly feel like they've just

got the right to hover back.

So you can't then just go, OK, well, my work is done now.

I'm just going to stop hovering so that I can go have, you know, some sexy time.

They're just like, oh, I want to chat with mum or where's dad?

I want to tell him about my day.

And then, of course, it gets even more awkward if you are not living with the

co-parent of your child and you might be dating.

That's a whole other level of things.

Like if you've got teenagers in your house, but then don't you get to give your kids

off to your co-parent for a weekend and then you get actual time to yourself?

There might not be another parent to take the kids on the weekend.

So I think that if you're a single parent or a divorced parent,

then your identity as a person who might have a sexual relationship

is a bit more in their face.

So I wonder if they give you a little bit more leeway and don't come

and just sit on the end of your bed.

But even if it's just not the sex, you just have no time.

And particularly if you've got children who span a wide age gap.

I mean, I've got a 11 year gap between my oldest and my youngest.

So it was like the young ones are awake early in the morning.

The older ones are awake at night.

So you literally have no time.

I loved what this woman said also about its sex.

But it's also having conversations.

You don't necessarily want your teenager to overhear if you want to share some

gossip or you want to do some bitching and you don't want your teen to be spreading that.

Whereas I think in my family, my parents were like, oh, the kids are just always here.

So everything is a free for all.

Everyone knows everything.

Well, I loved knowing all the gossip, but I do think in hindsight, I'm like,

maybe it would have been nice to give my dad a little bit of time.

Then you might have had more siblings.

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I just feel like I'm excited and I feel relaxed and I'm ready to party.

Recently, a few of us stumbled across a post on Instagram that we couldn't stop

thinking about. It was written and shared by psychologist Nicola Jane Hobbs,

who runs coaching and workshops aimed at helping women relax.

Her business, The Relaxed Woman, is focused on letting our bodies and brains know

we're safe enough to relax and that we're worthy enough to relax.

In her viral Instagram post, she writes,

Growing up, I never knew a relaxed woman.

Successful women, yes. Productive women, plenty.

Anxious and afraid and apologetic women, heaps of them.

But relaxed women, at ease women, women who aren't afraid to take up space in the world,

women who prioritize rest and pleasure and play, women who give themselves

unconditional permission to relax without guilt, without apology,

without feeling like they need to earn it.

I'm not sure I've ever met a woman like that, but I would like to become one.

I would like us all to become one.

This has resonated with hundreds of thousands of women,

including mum, me, a writer, Nicole Madigan, who wrote about it on the site.

She wrote,

I genuinely couldn't remember the last time I truly felt relaxed,

or in fact, the last time I even tried to relax.

Heck, I can't even get through half an hour of exercise

without feeling like I should be doing 20 other more important things

and usually stop midway to do something for someone.

The more I thought about this, the more I realized,

I personally know very few relaxed women.

And it made me angry because it made me frustrated

that I think when you're not relaxed, you put that pressure to be in the same state

of high anxiety and high stress on the women around you.

Like I kind of look at the women older than me or around me and think,

damn, I'd love to see a relaxed woman so that I felt like I had permission to be like that.

But what does it mean to be relaxed?

I don't understand.

Like, can you be busy and relaxed?

Well, I think the idea is the fact that women are constantly juggling a million things,

constantly busy, constantly stressed, constantly on the brink of burnout.

Carry the bulk of the mental load.

Well, not everyone's on the brink of burnout all the time.

I don't know.

Maybe it's the woman, you know, I've been watching as a bit of a diversion,

the Real Housewives of New York and now the Real Housewives of Sydney.

I'll tell you what, they're pretty relaxed.

The big plot point in an entire episode is that one of them is organizing a lunch

during the week in the middle of the day and they spend a week organizing it.

So probably she wouldn't say she was relaxed.

They look pretty relaxed to me from the outside,

but maybe they're not relaxed because then drama takes hold.

Oh, my thing is I can picture a lot of relaxed men in my life.

I can picture a lot of men who will turn up on Christmas day, have a beer in the backyard,

be very, very chill.

There is not one iota of stress coursing through their veins.

I know a lot of men like that.

I do not know the female equivalent.

Claire, do you know relaxed women?

I feel like, Mia, I'm kind of in your boat where I'm not fully comprehending what relaxed means

because I think I have moments in my life where I'm fully relaxed.

I can spend time on a couch binge watching things with not a care in the world.

Don't feel like I have to go and do something at all times,

but then there are times when my brain is full of things to do lists that I need to get done.

So then am I a sometimes relaxed woman?

Or do I have to be relaxed all the time in order to be a relaxed woman?

I've also got friends who really prioritize play.

So overseas holidays, doing things like my best friend is the best at just going

and doing whatever it is she wants to do.

She also has no children by choice, but she will go out for dinner at the drop of a hat.

She will go and experience things like she's all into extreme bungee jumping,

like whatever really satisfies her.

She's more than happy to spend the money and take the time and do it.

So is that a relaxed woman?

She's very high energy.

She's always doing something, but in her own mind,

she's doing all the things that she really wants to do and achieve in her life.

But she also has an incredible career.

I don't understand what a relaxed woman means because

does it just mean a woman who has no mental load?

Because they're very few and far between.

When I think about the relaxed women, I know they don't have children.

It's like a different energy that I'm so envious of, but I don't think it's just that.

I think there are so many women who are constantly anxious, constantly striving,

constantly ambitious and trying to do a million things.

And when you look at the, I guess, benchmark of what a woman is meant to be,

I don't think relaxed is one of the things we think about.

Someone I follow on Instagram, an old friend, posted a picture of herself last week

on the beach, like on a Wednesday at 11 o'clock.

And she said, I never liked hustle culture and hustle culture never liked me.

Now she runs her own small business, but it's an online business.

So she can choose her own adventure.

She's a single mom.

Her two kids are older and they've got their dad in their life as well.

So she obviously gets some time.

My reaction to it was the most interesting thing to me because when I saw that post,

I was like, I'd just be too ashamed.

Like, I thought it was really defiant of her to say, I'm just on the beach at 11 o'clock

and to me, this is goals because I cannot relax to my detriment.

So I think that she's probably at one extreme, that she is a relaxed woman.

And then I'm at the other in that I cannot relax and it's exhausting because I don't know how.

I always need to have something to do.

And I've worked out that my relaxation is actually being busy,

but being busy doing things that I am enjoying.

Like what you said, Murph, when you're busy doing things you are resentful about

or that you don't want to do or that you don't enjoy, you can't do that and be relaxed.

You know, for example, if you're on holiday and you're sightseeing, I mean, it won't necessarily

be a relaxing day as you're queuing up for this or looking at your map and walking around.

But it won't be stressful.

I think so many of us have internalized the idea that women are meant to be martyrs

and women are meant to care for everybody around us.

So the idea of being relaxed becomes-

Feel like you're stealing time.

Yes.

And becomes synonymous with being lazy.

Yes.

And there are so many women who have so many caring responsibilities

that it is not possible to put themselves first.

And I sometimes feel like busyness is a competition.

I say this women, but it's also among men that this kind of like hustle culture,

being busy, never being able to switch off, all of that is a competition.

And the idea of slowing down or even having less ambition is very stigmatized.

Do you know why I've had this conversation with my husband literally yesterday?

Because he was telling me, he sees qualities in me where he's like,

you could manage a team, you could climb the corporate ladder.

Like, because I'd had a struggle with something work related and he was like,

oh, well, if you were in charge, you could have made sure that that didn't happen.

And then I see him go off and take 24 phone calls as he's running his own business.

And then he comes back and he goes, oh, you should definitely focus on this.

And I'm like, I don't think you understand where I'm at in my life.

I do not want any more responsibility in my life than I already have.

I do not want to be responsible for other people or their jobs.

I don't want to have to tell people what to do.

I already tell my whole family what to do.

I don't need that in my professional life also.

I'm very happy with what I do.

I love my job.

I love the aspects of my job that keep me very happy.

If I move in this direction up the corporate ladder,

I lose all the parts of my job that I lack the most.

So it's like, I have to keep justifying to people around me

why I don't want to be more successful than I already am.

When people earlier in my career were saying,

why don't you move into TV?

And I'm like, you're serious?

The one TV gig I had, I had letter upon letter about people who hated my hair.

Like, why do I want that in my life?

It's an ambition for so many people,

but I've had to justify every step of the way

as to why I don't want to be that level of successful in my life.

So I feel like there's this expectation of women to be more, do more,

be bigger, have more things, do all the things, have it all, whatever it might be.

But we have to be more comfortable with our saying, I don't want more.

I don't want that higher level.

It's not just about career though.

Like if you've got a young family,

or if you've got caring responsibilities for a parent or a partner,

or if you've got mental health issues or chronic health issues

or acute health issues, relaxation is not an option.

Like it's just not because you are in fight or flight.

Sometimes for a short period of time, sometimes for years or even decades.

So I think that being a relaxed woman is perhaps a goal,

but it's also a luxury, surely.

But I wonder if, like, you can prioritize it

in a way that women aren't used to prioritizing it.

And there was one comment on this post I thought was really interesting.

There was somebody who wrote,

I try to be that relaxed woman,

but there are like 50 other women in my head tearing me apart for it.

It's a fight.

Like, I don't want to make it about women

because exactly what you just said, Claire,

sometimes it's the men in your life.

My dad, like, every time we have a conversation,

he's like, why aren't you a lawyer?

It's like, why didn't you do the absolute hardest thing?

And it's like, I didn't bloody want to,

and I wouldn't have enjoyed it.

So I think that it's this social thing.

And I guess that's where my tension is around this concept.

Are we setting women up to meet impossible standards

and then getting annoyed that they're not more relaxed?

Like, that's how I feel a little bit,

that it's like society is going to tell you,

you should do it all.

You should be everything.

You should be ambitious.

You should have a family.

You should do all these things.

And then, by the way, why are you not relaxed in doing yoga?

I think you are spot on.

And I think relaxed is the new work-life balance.

Now it's another thing for women to beat themselves up about

because they're not relaxed enough.

Exactly.

Out loud, is you relaxed?

Do you know anyone who's relaxed?

What does it even mean?

Now, for recommendations all this week,

we are going to be sharing some of the ways

in which we've been distracting ourselves

from a very, very heavy and distressing news cycle.

Claire Murphy, let's kick off with you.

I have gotten very deep into skincare at the minute.

And anyone who knows me knows that that's not normal

for my behaviour.

I tend to do the very bare minimum.

But I've been following this guy on TikTok

and I'll need to get his name.

Maybe we'll pop it in the show notes

because I couldn't find him before we sat down to record this.

But he does these videos where he goes into a chemist

and he says, here's all the skincare

that's really worth your money at a chemist

and here's the skincare that's not.

And I have just been sucking it all in.

And this one thing that he recommended,

I don't know about, do you guys use toner?

No, not since I was a teenager.

Same.

I was like, I haven't used toner since God knows when.

Because it takes a bit of like extra effort.

It used to be cotton wool buds

and then it was like the makeup pad things

which you then need to wash.

And I was like, I don't have time for that.

So this guy recommended this.

It's called Thays.

And it is a facial mist, witch hazel.

And you just spray it on your face.

And it's toner.

It's a toner.

So after you cleanse, you spray,

and I got the rose petal version

but there's one that's unscented.

And you don't have to use a cotton wool bud

or a makeup pad or any other extra anything

because you just spray it on

and then you put the rest of your skincare on top of it.

And it's a time saver and my skin feels bloody gorgeous.

And what does toner do?

I forget.

The toners of the olden days

when we were teenagers used to just be like alcohol

and just strip everything off your face.

So there's a good reason that we don't use them anymore.

I don't use a toner

because it's kind of a bit of an unnecessary step

but he's not wrong about having a spray.

After you cleanse,

you should never put your skincare on really dry skin.

Your skincare will always absorb better

if you do a little bit of a spray of mist.

I just use like a Sookin, like $5 or whatever.

It can be anything really.

It can just be water.

But it makes you active and your serums

and everything going better.

This one says it cleans, softens, refreshes and moisturizes.

And you can use it anytime throughout the day

as a softening, refreshment.

And it does exactly what it says on the bottle

according to my face.

Well, you are glowy.

I know, your skin's looking incredible.

So I'm like, hello, I need that.

Good racco.

Oh my God, love.

Got it for $14.99 at the chemist

and there's like two different versions.

You can get the rose petal

or you can get just like the non-centred version,

whatever suits you best.

But I'm a big fan of the old rose smell.

So I went with that.

Love it.

If you're looking for something else to listen to,

on last week's subscribe episode,

Holly, Mia and I discussed Victoria

and David Beckham's very tight family unit

and how we feel about it.

Because Mia and I feel like our families

are highly enmeshed and quite similar to the Beckham's.

Holly doesn't like it.

She thinks it's weird.

She thinks it's unnatural.

She thinks it's weird.

Speaking of distraction,

I think the Beckham documentary

has really got the world population

through the last week.

So honestly, kudos to them.

I watched it twice.

I went back last week when the news was just,

I mean, it's still so terrible,

but I just literally went back and soothed myself

by watching it again.

Even all the soccer bits I didn't fast forward through.

Do you know what I didn't realise?

Like, yes, I realised David Beckham

is an incredibly attractive man

who plays very good football,

but did you watch that man clean up?

I know yourself.

So sexy.

Very tidy man.

So sexy.

Thank you Out Louders

for listening to Australia's number one news

and pop culture show, That's Us.

This episode was produced by Emeline Gazillas,

the assistant producer is Tali Blackman,

and there is audio production by Leah Porges.

We'll see you tomorrow.

Bye.

Bye.

Bye.

Shout out to any Mum, Mia subscribers listening.

If you love the show and want to support us,

subscribing to Mum, Mia is the best way to do so.

There's a link in the episode description.

Machine-generated transcript that may contain inaccuracies.