The News Agents: Will the indictments actually help Donald Trump?

This is a Global Player Original Podcast.

This is a very sad day for America and it was also very sad driving through Washington,

D.C. and seeing the filth and the decay and all of the broken buildings and walls and

the graffiti.

This is not the place that I left.

It's a very sad thing to see it.

When you look at what's happening, this is a persecution of a political opponent.

This was never supposed to happen in America.

This is the persecution of the person that's leading by very, very substantial numbers in

the Republican primary and leading Biden by a lot.

So if you can't beat him, you persecute him or you prosecute him.

We can't let this happen in America.

Thank you very much.

That was, of course, Donald Trump on a tarmac in Washington before his flight home to Florida

on Thursday after being indicted.

Predictably, he spun a thread about his being thrice indicted for different alleged crimes

that was about himself and his relationship with the American people.

They're not after me, he was basically saying.

They're after you.

They hate me, he says, because they hate you, because I am you.

It's an extension of the shtick which propelled him to office as the unlikeliest president

in American history in the first place.

Ores Ondetra, a reason to run and to keep running.

He perhaps has little choice but to make this grim set of events a virtue.

Indeed, they go further than that.

He and his campaign literally say that each indictment helps him because it proves his

case.

So on today's episode, a very simple question, is he, are they right?

Are the indictments an anchor around his neck or the keys to the door to the White House

to be president once more?

It's Lewis here.

Welcome to the newsagents.

The newsagents.

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We heard from Trump before he left D.C.

That was Trump in New Jersey in his Bedlington golf club, crashing a wedding and getting

huge love for it.

Trump, as always, siphons energy from those who love him most and from a sense of persecution,

a central part of the populist playbook, something we've seen in our own politics just recently.

Think of the Farage Debanking Affair, the Privileges Committee report and Johnson's reaction

to it.

Here's Trump's lawyer, Alina Habba, reacting to the latest indictment.

This is election interference at its finest against the leading candidate, right now,

for president, for either party.

President Trump is under siege in a way that we have never seen before.

Yeah, that's right.

Trump's lawyer is blasting someone else for election interference, somewhere, George Orwell

is turning in his grave, war is peace, freedom is slavery, ignorance is strength.

There's no doubt the Biden administration and the Department of Justice were in an

invidious position.

Prosecute and you risk reaffirming Trump's base.

Don't prosecute.

And where does that leave the justice system?

So you can do something the authorities think is a crime, but you don't touch them purely

for politics, a nation of laws that is not.

So is it helping Trump in the polls?

It certainly seems to be among Republican primary voters, and there are Republican strategists

and pollsters who believe it will help him in the general election as well, such as Robert

Cahaley, Republican strategist and pollster of the Trafalgar group.

Robert, can we just start big picture?

What has happened to Trump's polling since the indictment?

Let's start with Republican primary voters.

Well, when the first of the year started, Trump was in the kind of mid thirties and

the Santas was in the low twenties.

And it looked to be a very competitive race.

And then right after the first indictment, people started to move.

And what they're telling us is even people who didn't like Trump are like, I don't like

him, but I don't like this idea that I don't get to pick who I want to vote for.

Or they say, you know what, they're attacking him so much, they're proving that he's the

guy who ought to be leading us.

And in terms of nationally, leaving aside the Republican primary, obviously Trump is

doing even better there than he was doing before.

What effect is this having in terms of his prospects for a general election and particularly

with independent voters?

If it's having an effect at all in your view?

Well, it is because you hit on the most important point and that is media attention to Trump

is like oxygen to a fire.

That is what he needs.

That is what he thrives on.

It's not the fact that they went after him.

If they were going after Trump on one charge, it probably would have some weight to it.

But the sheer ridiculousness of it, everybody has time to focus 79 charges on this one guy.

It looks more like the regime doesn't want him and that they're fighting that hard to

keep him out.

I mean, the fact that we have Trump and Biden in a virtual dead heat when you average all

the national polls is very significant because the Republican can be backed by as much as

four points instead of when the electoral college was a landslide.

So to put it simply, do you think that the indictments are more helpful to Trump and

his political prospects or less helpful?

I think if there were one or two, they'd be less helpful.

The fact that they seem to be piling on and it seems to be ridiculous is more helpful.

Robert, that was really interesting.

Thank you so much.

Yes, sir.

Have a great day.

There is another interpretation, of course.

The independent suburban voters and the like who turned off Trump in 2020 because he was

pure chaos are unlikely to gravitate back towards a man who has become more chaotic

still, who could well be in prison as he's taking the oath of office just before, presumably,

he pardons himself.

But one way or another, the damage is already done.

Trump represents a systemic risk to American democracy.

The infection of election denialism is already in the bloodstream.

Over 80 percent of Republicans and 30 percent of Americans believed the 2020 election was

stolen.

And the Republican Party, such as it remains, feels lost to reality to put it at its simplest,

one of the two main custodians of American democracy, pretty much from top to toe, has

shown a willingness to advance anti-democratic means in order to win.

That hasn't happened on a national scale since the Civil War.

To think about the implications for American democracy, we spoke to Professor David Dunn,

Professor of Politics at the University of Birmingham, an expert in American politics

more generally.

Professor, thanks so much for joining us on the news agents.

Can we just start with a big picture here?

I mean, Trump's poll numbers since the indictments began, many people might think that it would

affect him with regards to let's start with Republican primary voters, but it hasn't,

has it?

For the effect, the effect is one which has been positive for Trump in terms of his numbers

have gone up, his ability to raise money, which he's done at scale, has gone up.

And I think this is partly due to the fact that he has been in the public limelight.

He has had a platform, he has had huge media coverage, and Trump has milked that to a great

degree.

Now I suppose in a sense, what he's doing is an extension of his shtick all along, right?

Which is to say, they don't like me, the establishment doesn't like me.

They don't like you, they're going to get rid of me to get to you.

Every time there's been a person who, you know, if you've been sort of attacked by the

establishment or you don't feel at one with the establishment, or in whatever way you

are, haven't got what you've wanted, this is what is happening to me.

It's part of an extension of his overall philosophy.

Absolutely.

The whole politics of anti-politics that has been Trump's main philosophy, if you like,

has in a sense been vindicated by the last four months.

I'm on your side, I'm the little guy against the blob, against the deep state, against

the establishment, and I'm fighting for your cause.

And they're out to try and stop me doing what I've set out to do.

And in a sense, these prosecutions play exactly to that shtick, to that narrative.

There's no hint of irony in that he's accusing the Democratic Party and the Department of

Justice of interfering in the election, ignoring the fact that he's on charges or interfering

with the election.

It's extraordinary, isn't it?

You've already alluded to it, Professor, this idea around the deep state.

And to me, this is one of the most extraordinary developments in modern American history and

modern American politics, that the Republican Party, not so much should have been radicalized,

not so much that it should have gone down some of the more eccentric bits of Trumpian

philosophy, but that it should have become characterized by this deep antipathy and suspicion

of the state itself, and not in an economic sense in that traditional Republican way,

but even this very fevered idea around the deep state, the swamp, all of this sort of

thing, that it should end up this party that began in so many ways with Lincoln, and that

should be in so many ways the party of the American state, should go in this direction.

That doesn't really seem to be a way back from it, does it?

I think you're right.

It's very difficult to see your way back through it.

And it's also, preferably, ironic that the Republican Party, if any of the parties, should

embrace this mantra.

But what's happened over the last 10 years is that Donald Trump has hijacked the Republican

Party, and the Republican Party has failed to actually eject this irritant from its midst,

and in the end, has embraced him wholeheartedly.

And you see this in the way in which most of the other candidates, including his nearest

rival, Juan DeSantis, are completely reluctant to attack him and call out his errors, and

in fact, support the case against him for his alleged criminality, because they're so

fearful of that large section of the Republican Party who are fanatically supportive of Trump.

So in a sense, the Republican Party ideology, its history of being a defender of American

institutions, the conservatism with which it has been represented, has been hijacked

by a cult-like personality with a cult-like following, which is difficult to move beyond.

It's more than that, isn't it?

It's also reflective of the wider polarization of American politics.

In the sense that, I think it can be hard for us on this side of the Atlantic sometimes

to look at the American political system and look at, say, the state of the Republican

Party and think and say, well, how can it be that such a big proportion, not just of

Republicans, of active Republicans, but also of American voters on the right, more normal

Republicans, could still back Trump and believe Trump with regards to his claims of election

denialism. But it's partly about the fact, right, that those voters are actually as afraid

of the Democrats, as the Democrats are afraid of them, that they genuinely all believe that

each election now is an existential fight for America itself, and that America itself

in some sense will perish if the other side wins.

Absolutely. I think it's really important not just to focus on the Republican side.

If you talk to any voter in America that you come across, they will talk about that existential

threat posed by woke ideology, by radical left-wing Democrats, and the point to San

Francisco as a city swamped by homeless people, and they say, you know, this is what you have

if you have Democrats in power who fail to actually uphold American values and the like.

So what you have is a massively polarized country. And in many ways, Donald Trump is

a product of that, not just an accelerant on those flames, if you like. He is in a sense

someone who was tapped into and exploited those deep divisions that are apparently in

America. Large sections on both left and right feel excluded from the American economy, feel

excluded from American politics. And you've got a media that is making money and focused

on making money by exploiting those differences and by giving a highly partisan view of the

nature of the other side, if you like. And as a consequence, it's not clear who wins

the next presidential election. Each candidate could win because of that poor organization.

And that's the thing, right? As the professor says, the truth is, so polarized is American

democracy. The stakes are so high that probably if there were a law-breaking Democrat, he'd still

probably garner decent levels of support from the Democrat base because there is so much fear

of the other guy. So few are willing to listen to open their eyes. The fabled middle America

is now so slender it barely exists. Well, that was uplifting. After this, we're going to be going

to a very different place, the latest in our extended conversations with politicians,

and this one is something different, something really worth your time. Stay with us.

Welcome back. So, as promised, the latest of our conversations series. This time,

it's with Lord Alfdubs. Now, in a way, Lord Dubbs might be the least well-known of anyone we've

spoken to for this so far, but he's almost certainly had the most remarkable personal story.

And perhaps long-term impact on at least some of our politics. He was a Labour MP until 1987 in

London, lost his seat, became a peer, and has since become perhaps the best-known champion of

an advocate for refugees in our society. And that's not surprising because you're about to hear

his own story as a young Jewish boy beginning in Nazi-occupied Prague, swastika banners all

around him. And in the end, it took him to Parliament. It's a remarkable political life and

one that isn't over, most recently leading the charge against the Government's Legal

Migration Bill, which effectively criminalised claiming asylum irregularly in the UK. He came

into the newsagent studio to talk about his journey, his politics, and what he still wants to do.

Well, we are joined now by Lord Alfdubs, who has got to be, I think, one of the longest serving

parliamentarians at this point, now Lord Alfdubs must be. He was first elected in the 70s, then

served till 87 in the Commons, and then you've been in the Lord since when? 94? 94. I never thought

of myself as being one of the most long-serving places full of people who look older than me,

I'm sure. Well, quite so, yeah, but we'll keep that to ourselves. We'll talk about your life,

which has been an extraordinary political life and what makes up your politics and what's driven

your politics. And of course, often when we're talking to people for this part of the show,

their politicians who are in the Commons and maybe they're in the sort of centre of their

career, they're in their 40s, they're 50s, you're 90 years old now. Yes, yes. You were born in 1932.

I was. So you have an extraordinary, not only longevity, but also perspective. Where did it

begin? Where did your life start? I was born in Prague and I lived there till I was six years old,

and then the Nazis came, they occupied Prague. My father was Jewish and he left immediately,

they came in, my uncle and aunt stayed there, they said they take their chance and they were

taken to Auschwitz. My mother put me on a Kindertransport having been refused permission to leave,

so I came to London. I was lucky the most because my father was at Liverpool Street Station waiting

for me. Some of them didn't see their parents ever again or not till many years later. And so I was

lucky. And just remind people who might not be familiar what the Kindertransport were. The Kindertransport

trains organised to help mainly Jewish children from Germany, Austria and Czechoslovakia to come

to Britain. Britain being the only country that would take them at that time, even Americans

wouldn't. And the ones from Prague were organised by a man called Nicky Winton who died a few years

ago, aged 106. And so I suppose I owe my life to him. And the Kindertransport, as the name would

imply, were just for children? Just for children. I was six years old, I was one of the youngest

and they went up to 17 or 18. I can still see in front of me my mind's eye, Prague Station,

German soldiers with swastikas, anxious parents saying goodbye to their children not knowing

whether they'd see them again. So it was all quite dramatic. So you remember actually being at the

station in Nazi-occupied Prague and leaving the station being put on it on your own and having to

take the train? Well, there were about 200 others. But even before that, we'd had to tear a picture

of the Czech president, President Benish, out of our schoolbooks and stick in a picture of Hitler.

So things were quite dramatic even then. Of course, I did not understand the significance of what

was happening. All I know is that when the train left Prague and after a day and a half we got to

the Dutch border and the older ones cheered because they were out of reach of the Germans.

I knew it was significant, but for the life of me, I didn't know why. Then during the war,

I went to the Czech government around the school for Czech refugee children in Britain.

So I went there for two years, met a lot of fellow Czechs, not all from Kindertransport,

but all refugees. Do you still feel Czech to some extent?

Look, I think that's a difficult question. I think if I'd been a bit older, then my

background would have been pinched on me more during my teenage years in Britain.

But because I was six, I really had to start more of this again. I've been to Prague several times

and I've had a twinge when I've gone to Prague. But on the whole, I feel pretty British.

Did it stir any memories when you went back? Well, we were being driven along. I was with

the parliamentary delegation and we were driven along. And I said, what's the street called?

And I realized this is where I'd lived. Really? The street called Holetskava.

And that was quite, it does have memories, certainly.

And we obviously, we normally ask at this point what people's earliest political memory was,

but I suppose, I mean, it's that surely, that has to be it.

Even though you wouldn't have conceived it of it as a political memory at the time,

that is what it was. Yes, I reflected on it a few years later, still in my early teens.

And at that point, I decided that if evil men in politics can do such terrible things,

then maybe politics can also be used to reverse the process and for the better. So I was

passionate about politics. But these are my formative years and I struggled to learn English.

I spoke Czech and German when I came here. Didn't speak any English at all.

One or two sentences. But you know, in a school playground, you learn pretty quickly.

It's survival in a school playground you can't mess about.

What happened to your mum? Well, my mum, having been refused leave,

went to some Gestapo place, they threw her down the stairs, said exit permit refused,

and she landed in a heap at the bottom of the stairs.

But before she had time to work out what was broken, if anything,

her passport was flung after her. And that gave her hope. And she managed to get an exit permit,

God knows how, and she arrived in London the day before the war started.

Wow. So it was touching. My father then died shortly afterwards, so it wasn't all good news.

And the rest of your family? Well, scattered. There weren't that many, for some reason,

my family background was a small one, but all the ones we knew in Prague, friends and so on,

either they'd fled the country, or they ended up in a concentration camp.

One or two survived the concentration camps, but the majority didn't survive the concentration

camps. So when I went back to Prague, there was really hardly anybody there that we knew.

You mentioned Nick Winston, who was responsible for the kinder transport.

For the ones from Prague? For the ones from Prague, yeah.

There was an extraordinary programme, wasn't it? It was This Life in the 80s,

where he was on that and tributes being paid to him, and he had all of those dozens of people

behind him. Can I ask, is there anyone in our audience tonight who owes their life to Nicholas

Winton? If so, could you stand up please? Mr. Winton, would you like to turn round?

You all had the chance to meet these people properly after the programme. In the meantime,

Mr. Winton, on behalf of all of them, thank you very much indeed.

Are you involved in that? I wasn't actually, I was in a programme

after that. I watched it avidly, and of course a lot of the people there, I knew,

or have got to know since, because we all, those of us who came on a kinder transport,

sort of hung together a bit, we met occasionally, but Nicky Winton was absolutely outstanding.

I didn't know about Nicky Winton until that programme. I knew I'd come on a kinder transport.

I didn't know who'd organised it, and what an incredible person he is. I mean, he, if I can

say this, he went skiing in 38, I think in 1938, and a friend of his in Prague said,

come over here, there are terrible things happening. He then decided something has to happen,

and unlike most people who see something awful and say that's awful and then let's move on,

he decided something had to be done. So he set about organising kinder transport and about five

or six trains he organised, and I came in June or July 1939.

And you got to know him over the years?

I got to know him after that television programme. I got to know him quite well.

We used to have occasionally had a meal together. Very amazing person. He,

I remember, he used to have birthday parties, either at the Czech Embassy or later

at his home in Maidenhead, and his birthday parties were quite something, and I said to him

one day, he was about 104, Nicky, how are you? He said, I'm fine from the neck upwards,

and he stayed completely lucid till he was about 106 when he gradually showed signs of fading.

I mean, it must have been an extraordinary bond to have with someone, and indeed,

for you and the rest of the kinder transport kids.

We did, because when you look at those of us who came on his kinder transport,

plus children and grandchildren, we end up being several thousand people,

all of whom owe our lives to Nicky Winton. And I think he took a quiet pride, or he's a modest

man, he took a quiet pride in the fact that we were all there, and that he'd helped to save our

lives. What led you to the Labour Party? What was it about the Labour Party in the left that

made you want to be on that side of politics? I was passionately interested in following the

1945 election results in Manchester. I could tell you who all the candidates were, there were big

posters up everywhere, because no television, so I followed it, and I just felt inspired by what

was happening, by the mood of change. New Jerusalem. Well, insofar as I understood that, that concept,

yes, and I think I felt there's a new world coming, and we've got hope for the future.

Clement Attlee may not have been the most inspirational figure, but he put over the

message. But there's some extraordinary other figures in that government as well.

It was a fantastically talented government, and of course, many of them had served in the

coalition during the war, so they weren't beginners to being members of the cabinet,

so they brought with them a lot of experience from during the war. But I think they were a very

impressive bunch of people at Labour cabinet, and they did impressive things. Did you have a political

hero at that time? Probably. Because of setting up the health service, it was Nybevan. I think

Nybevan was the person who cut through all the difficulties, and brought about, I think, one

of the most profound changes in this country. Well, you must remember the creation of the NHS in 48,

I suppose. I was in hospital at the time. Really? I was a teenager. I was in Stockport in Firmary,

in Manchester, and the consultant came around. In those days, the consultants were like gods,

and they came with a matron and a team of junior doctors, and of course, you didn't speak unless

you spoke to me first. And he came by, and I said, just a minute, I have a question, and he said,

what is it? So I said, well, I said, are we going to party today? And he said, why? I said,

the hospital's ours. It's all ours. And he walked on, and I was only child in the ward,

and the people there then said, what's going on? I said, it's a great day. The hospital's ours. We

got National Health Service. So I felt moved totally by that. And how, I mean, obviously, over time,

as the full horrors of the Holocaust became clear, I mean, you must, again, remember the news of that

emerging and so on, even though you would have been young. I mean, how has that shaped your

politics? Does it still sit with you? Does it still? Oh, very much so. I think it's in my soul, I would

say. I think it was one of the most dramatically awful events in human history. You know, sometimes

words fail me for the horror of it. And I think of the people we knew who ended up in the camps.

I visited Auschwitz. I visited Terrazine. I've seen the camps as they are, subsequently, of course.

And I've remained deeply, deeply shocked. And I remember support those organizations like the

Holocaust, Education Trust and so on, that actually spread the word to schools, so that the next

generation also know what happened. And then you're elected in 79. Labour's obviously left

office. Margaret Thatcher's come in. I mean, that must have been an extraordinary moment as well. I

mean, you're a son of a refugee. You're a self-refugee. And then you're in the House of Commons.

Yeah, I was. First of all, I didn't expect to win. I won South Battersea by 332 votes. It was not

expected that Labour would win. In fact, the Tories won all the other target seats in London

a few more besides. So I was a bit of a surprise victory. But you found yourself in the Commons.

And I found myself in the Commons, much to my astonishment. What did you make of it? Was it

what you thought it would be? What was it like in those days? I mean, very differences today.

Well, first of all, I felt very lucky. I felt completely privileged to be there.

Jim Callahan was leader of the opposition. He was still around. Margaret Thatcher just started.

In fact, because of the funny seating, when he stopped being leader of the Labour Party,

he and I were sitting next to each other and we were chatting about his summer holidays.

So I was talking to all these people that I'd hardly ever got near. But equally, there was a

pain of Labour having been defeated. There was a pain of what they call the winter of discontent,

which was a pretty difficult time for the Callahan government. And then my surprise

was having won. I had to change my life. I hadn't really thought I was going to win.

Yeah. I mean, I started the interview by talking about your longevity in Parliament,

the Commons and the laws. And you left the Commons in 87. How has Parliament changed in that time?

I lost. I lost in 87. I didn't want to be thrown out.

They then put me in the Lords and it gave me an opportunity. So I saw it from a different

perspective from House of Lords. Although I think the Lords should be elected, by the way,

but that's for another day of discussion. But it has changed. And the leading people

are now much younger, some of them younger than me. So I don't see them as the heroes of my childhood.

No. I mean, we should talk about your, I mean, obviously, the thing that people

know you most for is really how we started, which is your passion for talking about

advocation of refugees in our society. How do you assess the culture that we have at the moment

towards refugees and towards asylum seekers in terms of the tone and so on? Do you think that

it is much worse than it has been in the past? Yes. I think it has got worse. I think it's a very

sad comment on this country that we have successive bouts of legislation which make the situation of

refugees even worse. They've become demonized in this country and in other countries. And I think

people who are fleeing for safety, people who've gone through the most appalling experiences,

I think have the right under international agreements, of which we're a part,

to actually find safety. And the number that get here, very small compared to those that get to

Germany, Italy, France and so on, or the United States. And I think we could do better than to

demonize people who are victims, who's fault it isn't, and have seen the most terrible things

happen. I mean, there's one Syrian boy who said to me, he'd seen his father killed in front of

him by a bomb in Aleppo, Damascus. Well, how can we never get over such an experience? And they

had the most appalling journeys to try and find safety. And a few of them want to come to Britain

through connections, through language, or through family.

I suppose you can't help, given your life experience, you can't help but see yourself in

that little boy when you're talking to them. Yes, I do see that. And we have a sort of a bond,

because they know that I had to learn English, they know what my background is,

and so I have a sort of shared experience. But I didn't have the difficult journeys, some of

the most appalling difficult journeys. Why do you think it is, you think it's the tone has become

more hostile? Why do you think that is? Because it's not as if there hasn't been hostility in

the past, it's always been a sort of undercurrent of our politics. Why do you think it's become worse?

I think it's a very sobering question. I think it's been made political in the sense that people

are using refugees almost to demonize them for their own political ends. And when the government

uses slogans like when the Home Secretary talks about invaders, invaders by any standards are the

enemy. And yet she talks about invaders as being refugees, or refugees being invaders. And that

is deeply shocking to talk about them like that, and then to the hostility. Britain has been a very

welcoming country to refugees. But it is welcoming if the leadership of this country also says these

people, some of them anyway, ought to find safety here. And if we make unwelcoming noises from the

top in our country, then local communities are going to be less sympathetic. So it's having a very

damaging effect on local communities. And I deeply regret that. Do you think she's fit to be Home

Secretary? Absolutely not. Absolutely not. For anybody who calls them invaders, who brings forward

the sort of legislation she's brought forward, which breaches all our human rights traditions,

which involves virtually tearing up our international agreements, no. As a country, we

haven't sunk that low, I hope. No, she's not fit to be Home Secretary. A lot of the people who've

come either on the back of lawyers or boats, when they're assessed as to whether they have a valid

asylum claim. And that comes under international agreements. When they're assessed, majority of

them are deemed to be refugees under something called the 1951 Geneva Convention. So they're not

abusing the system. There are people who are trying to achieve something, which internationally

they're entitled to do. But we take, in relation to our size, fewer refugees than most other European

countries, Germans, Italians, French, they all take far more. So the numbers are actually tiny.

Now, I don't like a single person coming across the channel with a people trafficker. It's dangerous,

it's shocking, some of them drown, it is terrible. Far more across the Mediterranean, of course.

Same difficulties there with people drowning. But I think it's shocking and we've got to catch

the traffickers and we've got to find safe and legal routes for people who've got a link to this

country to come here. The most important link is family. If you've got a Syrian boy in Calais,

whose brother is in the north of England, surely the most sensible thing is for him to join his

brother. And these family links are very important. And I think we should be far more welcoming and

hospitable. Now, the other thing about her legislation is that she's made it a criminal

offence for anybody to cross the channel, what she calls illegally. Now, there's no legal way

for anybody to come here apart from Ukraine, a handful from Afghanistan, and then the Hong Kong

people. But for the rest, they can't come here by any legal routes. So all we want is safe and

legal routes for people to come here. Then the traffickers wouldn't have any business,

traffickers would go out of business and people would come safely.

The Labour Party isn't committed to repeal a legislation, though, is it? I mean, does that

sadden you? Well, first of all, we haven't got a Labour government yet. Let's hope. Let's hope.

I think a Labour government would be better. It might not be good enough by my standards,

but I think it'll be better. And the Labour Party has said they will bring in new legislation for

refugees to replace all this stuff. Labour Party could be more vocal about this. I'm hoping the

women government will do the right thing. You've seen a few Labour Party leaders come and go in

your time. You've talked about you, remember Clement Attlee being the Labour Party leader

and Prime Minister. How do you think Starmer compares to these people, to all of that pantheon

of greats and not-so-greats that have come and gone that you've seen over the 90s?

The others. Well, because Neil Kinnock never became a leader. Neil Kinnock made the most

passionate speeches. One of his speeches was just, it stays with me all the time.

Which one? I warn you not to be, if the Tories win, I warn you not to be ordinary. I warn you

not to be young. I warn you not to fall ill. I warn you not to get old.

If Margaret Thatcher wins on Thursday, I warn you that you will be quiet. When the

curfew of fear and the jibbit of unemployment makes you obedient, I warn you that you will have defence

of a sort with a risk and at a price that passes all understanding.

If Margaret Thatcher wins on Thursday, I warn you not to be ordinary. I warn you

not to be young. I warn you not to fall ill and I warn you not to grow old.

It was true when Kinnock spoke that way and it's true today.

But how do you think Starmer compares to all of these people? Are you hopeful for him? Do you

think he'd be a good Prime Minister, a Labour Prime Minister? There haven't been many Labour

Prime Ministers. You've seen most of them come and go. Do you think he'd be a good one?

I think he would make a good Prime Minister. I shall be chasing him to do more things.

But yes, I think he will be a good Prime Minister. He's understated,

Clement Attlee was understated, whereas Neil Kinnock was bigger than life and we loved him

for that. But I think Starmer will do a good job, but many of us will still be there to be critical

friends. And if you could do, if I gave you a magic wand, it says you could do one thing.

You could do one thing now and it would happen instantly. What would you do in politics?

Can you give me two magic wands? Go on, all right. Since it's you, only because it's you

and because you've done 90 years and you're our most distinguished guest so far, you can have two.

Well, okay, the two things are, first of all, I would like us to be back as full members of the

European Union. I think our departure from Europe has been the most damaging thing to this country,

individuals, businesses and so on. So I'd like us to be back in the European Union. And secondly,

I would like us to be more welcoming to refugees. I'd like us to be a country that shares responsibility

with others for refugees and that welcomes them and gives them a chance to have a decent life.

Those two things. Just in terms of you talk about the EU, because you've seen so much of British

politics come and go, how do you think the last few years compares to that sort of long political

life? You've seen lots of crises happen. We've had a lot recently. How do you think this current

period compares to others gone by and decades gone by? Well, if I can be bluntly political for

change. Go on, go for it. Look, just between us. I think we've had, in both Johnson and Liz

Truss and this person guy, I think we've had three of the worst prime ministers in our history.

Certainly, in both Johnson and Liz Truss, we've had two of the worst prime ministers in our history,

but there's been a poisoning of the political atmosphere as well. Integrity has gone by the

way. I used to believe that our political leaders should at least be honest. I dislike

many of Margaret Thatcher's policies, but she was actually an honest person. You believe what

she was saying. I didn't like it. I think we've lowered the standards of politics. I think our

politics have really gone down. And as a country, we respect human rights and that's gone. All the

values that I loved about this country are in danger now. If you could be remembered just finally,

Lord Doves, and you've got plenty of work to do, I know. But when the time comes for your

obituary to be written, how would you like to be remembered? Oh, I don't know. I don't

mean much as that. I would like to be remembered as somebody who tried to help more vulnerable

people, who tried to help his more vulnerable fellow human beings. Lord Doves, it's been an

absolute pleasure to talk to you. Thanks so much. Thank you.

This is The News Agents.

Right before we go, Keir Starmer has been speaking today. He wanted to remind us of something.

I love this country. But at the moment, things are heading in the wrong direction.

When I was growing up, we didn't have much. Dad was a toolmaker. I was a nerd.

It's funny him saying that his dad was a toolmaker. We were thinking in News Agents HQ,

that was so interesting. Where had we heard it before? Oh, that's right.

My dad was a toolmaker. He was skilled as a toolmaker, highly skilled.

He was a toolmaker, yeah. Dad was a toolmaker. My dad was a toolmaker. And he was a toolmaker.

He was a skilled man. My dad, he was a toolmaker. My dad was a toolmaker. My dad was a toolmaker.

Well, we certainly are getting the message. I hear he may have lived in a pebble-semi as well,

but you know what? That could just be hearsay. Thanks to those at Politics Joe who put that

together. Anyway, that is it from all of us for this week. Remember, you can catch up on all of

our shows on Global Player and send us story tips and feedback to newsagents at global.com.

Thanks to our production team, as ever, on the News Agents, Gabriel Radis,

Laura Fitzpatrick, Georgia Foxwell, Will Gibson-Smith, Alex Barnett, and Rory Simon. Our editor is

Tom Hughes. It's presented by Emily. I call your bullshit make list. John, I'm so bored of my family

on holiday. I'm sending voice notes. So, Paul, and me, Lewis, home alone. Good luck. We'll see you

on Monday. Have a lovely weekend. This has been a Global Player original podcast and a Persephoneka

production.

Machine-generated transcript that may contain inaccuracies.