The News Agents: Will Macron block Rishi's small boats plan?

Global Global 3/9/23 - Episode Page - 27m - PDF Transcript

This is a Global Player original podcast.

Labour are borrowing from the Gary Lineker playbook.

They are a party...

..they are a party of goal hangers

and the occasional left-wing striker.

Hanging around the goal mouth poised to seize any opportunities

and to take an easy shot,

but that only works if the ball is in the right half.

This country doesn't need goal hangers, it needs centre forwards.

It needs people that put in the hard work, take tough decisions,

grip a problem and work out how to solve it

and create those opportunities, and that is what we are doing.

And it needs a team captain who knows his own mind,

has a plan and what colour his football shirt is.

Labour might be up at half time,

but the second half is yet to be played.

You know, I'd really love to think that Penny Mordent,

the leader of the house, was just riffing

and kind of sporting metaphors,

with just coming into her brain as she spoke.

But I have a horrible, horrible feeling.

That was written.

That was a carefully scripted attempt

to tie in the Labour Party to Gary Lineker

and keep the focus on a football commentator.

Yeah, and there's a very important reason

why she and others on the Conservative benches

might be doing that today.

Because we are hearing that tomorrow,

when the rubber hits the road with that meeting

between Rishi Sunak and Emmanuel Macron in Paris,

Macron might end the dreams of helping Rishi Sunak

stop the small boats.

So for now, they won't be talking about that.

They won't be talking about small boats.

They won't be talking about the ins and outs of their policy

or whether it breaks international law.

They'll be talking about Lineker

because they want you to be doing that too.

Welcome to the News Agents.

The News Agents.

It's John.

It's Emily.

And we are in a shiveringly cold News Agents HQ

where Maitland has been persuaded to take off her gilet

because it is so cold in here.

So she is shivering.

And we are going to talk about what on earth is going on.

We're going to talk about the bigger policy,

the huge issue of migrants, asylum seekers,

government policy, the global crisis.

But you would think that everything,

everything revolves around Gary Lineker

and his single tweet.

He tried to get out of his house today.

He was surrounded by reporters.

Morning, Gary.

Yes.

Very good morning to you.

Morning, morning.

Do you regret the tweet, Gary?

Do you regret the tweet, Gary?

No.

Hi there. Have you heard from the BBC, Gary?

I'm always talking to the BBC.

What does the Director-General say to you?

Yeah.

What's he said?

He said, well, we have a chat, we chat often.

Anything about the tweet, Gary?

Do you regret sending the tweet at all?

No.

He's done by what you said.

Sorry?

He's done by what you said in your tweet.

Thank you.

That's what they call a doorstep in our industry,

which is where you try and get a comment from somebody

kind of ad-libbed on their way from the door

to their car or to their place of work.

Gary Lineker not giving an awful amount away there

and pretty gracious as he passed by.

But what we're hearing from the Sun,

who says that they have had a reporter

who's spoken to a source at the BBC,

is the whole thing's now resolved.

The BBC wants to move on in brackets.

They can't afford to lose Gary Lineker.

And Gary Lineker wants to move on in brackets.

He probably doesn't want to give up the day job.

And in the last few minutes, Gary Lineker has tweeted.

He's clearly keen to just draw a line under this whole thing.

He said, it's been an interesting couple of days.

Happy that this ridiculously out of proportion story

seems to be abating.

Very much looking forward to presenting

Match of the Day on Saturday.

Thanks again for your incredible support.

It's been overwhelming.

But for now, you see, the people that still want the story

to keep going and are still talking about it

will be conservatives on the front bench

who want to tie everything that was implicit

in that row to Labour.

And of course, tomorrow, Rishi Sunak goes to Paris.

It is a big, big deal.

It is an attempt to reset the relationship.

And what we've been hearing throughout the week

is that this could be the moment

when relationships are transformed

and policy might be transformed as well,

whereby the French government might agree to take

returning asylum seekers who've come across the channel

and landed on the beaches in Dover.

But is it as straightforward as that?

Because if you're hearing things from the French side,

it's nothing like as straightforward.

Yeah.

I mean, so far, we have been giving them money.

We've been giving them millions to tackle patrols,

to help bolster, if you like, French security,

security on their side of the channel

that would stop more of the boats coming through to us.

Clearly, something hasn't worked.

I mean, we keep on giving them sums of money.

I think we're up to about 250 million, 300 million.

The last trench was about 60 million in November.

But the thing that would make the difference

is if there is some kind of returns agreement

that both sides can accept.

That is not a returns agreement

like the ones we have with India and Pakistan and Serbia,

which, you know, are miles away.

They're much further away.

They're not direct routes here.

The manual macro helps Rishi out.

With that, then Rishi Sunak feels

he has got a major cap in his feather

because he can turn around to the country and say,

you see, I promise that I'd reset relations with the EU.

I promise that I'd stop small boats

and here it all is in one policy.

There's a lot hanging on this,

but the mood music so far is not great.

Well, on your point on Atmospheric's mood music,

whatever you want to call it,

I mean, there is something that has changed

to put it kind of in old-fashioned terms.

They like the cut of each other's jib.

Right.

Do Macron and Sunak.

They're kind of rather similar technocrats,

clever, Goldman Sachs, bankers,

sort of that sort of background.

They're both well-dressed.

I think that's what we're not saying that,

but it does work, doesn't it?

And small.

Whereas Macron couldn't stand Boris Johnson.

And we all knew what happened with Liz Truss

when she said France...

Friend or foe.

Friend or foe.

Look, let's speak now to Sophie Pedder

who is the Europe editor,

France editor for the Economist magazine

and is in Paris now.

And Sophie, they are coming to Paris, aren't they?

But wasn't there a plan that the meeting

should take place somewhere else?

There was.

It was originally proposed by the Elysees

that the summit would take place in northern France.

I mean, the symbolism, sort of echoes of war

and reconciliation,

and they rather liked that idea.

But the British government said they'd rather come to Paris.

So Paris, it's going to be tomorrow.

And the Elysees Palace, more specifically.

Yes, not just Paris,

but the big, real, glamorous centre

of sort of French power,

which is the Elysees Palace, right?

He wants to be seen to be accepted.

And the Rue du Faubourg Saint-Honoré,

which is where the Elysees Palace is on,

is just a couple of hundred yards

from the British Embassy residence,

which is also pretty damn fabulous.

So I can imagine that the accommodation...

The photo ops will be looking great

and the accommodation will be comfy.

Exactly, exactly.

What about substance?

What we were just talking about.

I mean, Rishi Sunak clearly wants to get some kind of deal

whereby the people who arrive in Dover

on small boats can be sent back.

Is that going to happen?

Well, look, I mean, I think there are various things here.

The first one is, from the French point of view,

this summit isn't all about small boats.

And I get the impression that the UK thinks

that that's the main subject.

It is a summit that is supposed to look at a range of things,

and it will.

These could be cooperation over Ukraine,

other defence cooperation, nuclear energy.

There is sort of a range of subjects

that are actually officially on the agenda.

So I think the French do not want to make

this entire summit about small boats.

Having said that, it's obviously what Rishi Sunak

is coming to Paris to talk about.

But I think it's a question of expectations.

The French will never accept right now

the idea of a readmission agreement

that would send all migrants that made it over the channel

back to French soil systematically.

It just won't fly in France at all.

What they will be prepared to do

is talk about putting more French policemen on the beaches,

that kind of reinforcing the deal that's already there,

financed by the UK, by the way,

with a bit more money, a more regular, you know,

yearly deal that they didn't have to keep being negotiated.

That's the sort of thing they're prepared to talk about.

But a systematic deal to readmit all people

who make it across the channel,

the French just won't accept that.

So Sophie, let's unpick that,

because what we're talking about here is returns agreements.

And Rishi Sunak spelled out yesterday for us

that there are countries that we have returns agreements with,

like India, like Pakistan, like Serbia,

but the obvious neighbour is France.

Now, are you saying that if Rishi Sunak

turns to Emmanuel Macron and says,

will you be prepared to take asylum seekers

or migrants crossing in France?

The answer will be no?

That is how I read the situation at the moment.

And I think from the French point of view,

although they understand that there is a particular

geographic closeness between the UK and France,

this is an EU-UK situation.

It's something that the UK needs to negotiate with the EU.

And as happened all the way through the Brexit talks,

this was never something that France talked about

to the UK bilaterally.

And I think that the way the French would approach this

is to say that the same would go for any sort of

readmission request from the UK.

So it's much more likely that they're going to get

some better cooperation deal in terms of patrolling,

embedded British policemen in French patrols,

that kind of thing, but not a readmission agreement now.

And I want to unpick that answer

because I think that's fascinating.

This is a Franco-British summit,

but it's not going to have the power

to come to huge agreement on the return of migrants

because France would say that's not of French matter,

that is an EU matter.

I think that's right, but it doesn't mean

you can't see other forms of cooperation

that can be bilateral,

and hence things like this deal

that was reinforced last year

to let the British police officers

take part in embedded operations.

I mean, this is already happening in northern France.

It's really interesting, and it's clearly something

that is valued by both sides,

but it's not the same as going

for a full-out readmissions agreement.

Do you think there will be a conversation

about how Rishi Sunak may have to

change, tone down, water down

the language of his small boats policy

in order to make Macron come on side?

I just don't think that's what's going to happen tomorrow,

to be honest. The way I see it

is you're going to have some very good

atmospherics, as you put it earlier.

There's going to be a lot of smiling, a lot of...

The symbolism is important on both sides.

I think they want to...

that symbolism not just to be for

domestic consumption in the UK and France,

but also, you know, Russia is going to be watching.

Russia is very carefully watching

where there are potential rifts and divisions

among Europeans, and the idea of

having Sunak and Macron standing

side-by-side, talking about

their commitment to supporting Ukraine,

I think is going to be really an important

moment. So I think that

this issue of small boats, from the

French perspective, is just

one matter, one issue on the table,

and it's not going to be resolved,

I don't think, tomorrow.

It's really interesting, isn't it, because just in terms

of the money involved, Britain has

paid France, like, north of

230 million, in these incremental

sort of one-off payments, not a systemic

thing, but a sort of, here, how can we be

of help for your patrolling

on the French side? I think the last one was in

November, when the current

Home Secretary, Savannah Bravman,

agreed to pay around 60 million

with her

French, the Interior Minister, it would be

to increase those patrols by 40%.

Now, if this money

is going to France

but it's not working, or at

least the small boats problem isn't

being solved, what happens?

I mean, what does that say?

Well, I think what you'll probably

see tomorrow, I mean, I, you know,

haven't seen the declaration, so I don't

know for sure, but my understanding

is you're going to see strength and

cooperation of the sort we were just discussing,

that's to say, you know, more of

these sort of joint efforts

to break up smuggling rings

to stop people getting

to the coast in the first place.

And, you know, I think that

even the British Police Authorities

who have been working here would agree

that this has begun to have some

effect, so putting more resources into that

is a way of trying to sort of break up

arrivals before they even get

to the coast and break up the smuggling

rings themselves. Sophie, this may sound

like a really stupid question, and forgive me

if it is. But

has it made any difference

the fact that Britain is no longer part

of the European Union? You know, 20 years ago

I was the BBC's Paris correspondent

and I was spending most of my time in Calais

and at a place called Songat chasing

people who were trying to get on to lorries

to come across the channel. The problem has

been there for 20 plus years.

It just happens to be that in the last

few years, we've been out of the EU.

I mean, yes, and of course,

and, you know, you'll remember that it was

Marcosi who closed Songat at one point

when he was president. I mean, of course, there's

problems been going on for years and years.

I don't think that the problem

has been made worse or

has it been eased either way by Brexit.

What's changed is that

until, this is why I think this summit is so important,

until now, you know,

the French and the British just weren't really

talking to each other properly. I mean, don't forget

this is the first time they're holding, the two governments

are holding a summit since 2018 when

they held it in Sandhurst in the UK.

That was under Theresa May.

The sort of Johnson years just meant

there wasn't a proper dialogue with France.

You know, there was just a trading of insults, but went

both ways. You referred to them earlier.

You know, sometimes it was funny, but most of the time

it was just depressing. So the fact

that the two countries can talk to each other

that can have a sort of serious conversation,

I think, is the way to

then build on that in perhaps

more kind of concrete

ways in order to resolve the

problem. But I think you have to get past

that first stage before you can do anything

more that build on that trust.

You know, the trust being so utterly missing

and absent in that

relationship, the UK-French relationship.

Very sadly, in my view,

that it's just going to be

important moment to start

rebuilding again and then perhaps get to

something a little bit more ambitious.

Sophie Pedder, thank you so much for being

with us. We will be watching closely

and I'm sure Lewis will be picking that up

tomorrow. Thanks Sophie, ever so much. Thank you.

Pleasure. And isn't it interesting, just hearing

from Sophie there where she spells out

that there hasn't been a meeting like

this since 2018. We have been

in a many dark ages

for five years and if you think

that this was the Prime Minister, Boris Johnson,

who got elected on that

promise of getting Brexit done

and left this five-year

whole where

nothing happened, where relationships were

broken, whereas you said

you know, sand was kicked in the eye

and things have got worse and I sort

of wonder how, I mean

I don't wonder how the current

administration thinks, because obviously

they were all part of the same party and the same

process and the same cabinet quite frankly

but it is extraordinary that we're only

now just starting to pick up

the pieces from Theresa May's last visit

in 2018. It is extraordinary.

Talking of turning

your attention away from their true

focus, we think it's

pretty important to be looking at Iran

right now, whose

nuclear capabilities

have soared past the point

of no return.

Nobody's been watching this because everyone's

eyes have been, rightly,

on Ukraine, on Russia, on China

at the moment, but it could

make for a seriously interesting,

dangerous development in our relations

with Iran.

That's what's come.

Welcome back. In journalism

stories come to you in all sorts of ways

sometimes in a brown envelope, sometimes

you just happen to be

at a breakfast where someone really interesting

is speaking and they say

something that is really

unexpected and I was with a senior

defence official earlier

this week and the talk, of course,

was about Ukraine and what was happening

there and the kind of horrifying

casualty toll and all the rest of it

but in the midst of that conversation

about global uncertainty were

some pretty shocking things

about the situation in

Iran and its

enrichment of uranium and

Iran's ability to produce

a nuclear weapon and what the consequences

of that could be. This particular person

said he thought that the new

Iran nuclear deal was in effect

dead. It had gone past that stage

and that Israel

and Saudi Arabia were

deeply worried and a kind of weird

alliance in their concern about

Iran and wasn't ruling out

the prospect that sometime

quite soon

Israel could

actually retaliate

and try to take out

the Iranian nuclear facilities

like we haven't got enough

instability in the world

as things stand

this could be something else

altogether. Yeah and it I guess goes

back to

a statistic, a measurement

which is that our officials

have been watching the Iranian threat

and they can actually

measure it and what

nuclear inspectors are saying now

is that uranium particles

have been enriched to about

90% purity and 90%

is if you like a trigger

it's a trigger number for many states

saying this is the point

at which Iran becomes capable

of its nuclear

potential and that's

why the West doesn't want to leave it

too late and I'll tell you something really

weird actually soaps which was about six or seven

years ago I was in Iran I was in

Isfahan the most beautiful historic

extraordinary city and

at night we went for a walk

and they took us to the sort of bridges

where the river has completely

run dry and it's run dry

because all the water that should

be going into the country

is being used for uranium enrichment

this was already six or seven years ago

and there's a moment where

when the farmers riot they start turning on the taps

and they let the water come back

into the river into the crops

into the general population

but the rest of the time this is why Iran's got

various drought problem is because it's all going into

uranium enrichment that is absolutely fascinating

isn't it well

the uranium enrichment goes on

a pace and whatever was

the agreement that was meant to stop that

got halted effectively when Donald Trump

said I don't want America to be part

of this anymore there have been attempts

to revive it but frankly now

it seems past the point of no return

well let's just talk about

how serious this is

Sir Kim Dharak, Lord Dharak

he was Britain's national security

advisor all through the

negotiations on the catchily named

JCPOA

the joint comprehensive

plan of action for acronym

lovers otherwise known

as the Iran nuclear deal

Kim how worried should we be

we should be worried John

weapons grade uranium is

90% enriched

and an IAEA

report because they inspect the Iranian

nuclear facilities of

28th of February so only a few days ago

discovered

some 84% enriched

uranium in the Iranian

facilities

and the Iranians say this was

an accident that it was

an issue of a reconfiguring of their

centrifuges but there is

absolutely no reason

to be anywhere close

to that sort of figure

for enrichment unless there is

something going on about

enriching uranium way

past civilian needs

and you have something that is

frankly very worrying

is this the talk in security

circles here as to what happens

if

Iran starts moving on this

yes the people who are responsible

for relations with Iran

for non-proliferation issues

are and must be worried

about this but it's not

rising to the top of the news agenda

I don't think it will be

rising in the subjects

leaders talk about in the west when they talk to one another

but it is something

that can blow up very very quickly

because as I say there is no reason

to have uranium enriched to that level

unless you're up to something

so are we saying

that Iran could be weeks away

from having the capability

to make a nuclear weapon

I think we are saying that

if you believe there is to stock

then we're still somewhere away

if you think the Iranians might be hiding something

then it's much more dangerous

obviously I don't know which of those is

true but this must be

worrying worrying because

the Israelis have said

they will never allow Iran to get

to that point where they can

break out and develop a nuclear

weapon so does this mean that we

should be like the world

doesn't got enough instability at the moment

given what's happening in Ukraine

given the talk about China and

Taiwan that actually

it's possible that Israel could launch an attack

on Iran that's quite a job

what I would say is first of all

you're absolutely right that Israel has said

it will not allow Iran

to develop nuclear weapons

so inevitably

the news about what

the IA has discovered is bound

to prompt speculation

about the Israeli reaction

Kim what was it like

negotiating with the Iranians

I remember speaking to a very

senior US

intelligence defense expert

who had done a lot of this

and saying

he had never come across a group of people

at the top of a government

who were quite as untrustworthy

now that's obviously a very

pejorative thing to say but I just wonder

what your experience was

they are a unique bunch

they have a reputation

of not obeying

the very letter of the deals

they do

and that reputation I think carries evidence

for why they are like that

I wouldn't be quite as pejorative as your contact

about them and we certainly regarded

the deal we did back in 2015

the JCPOA not as a perfect deal

not as flawless

but as good a deal as you could do at the time

and we think it was a huge mistake

for the Trump administration

to pull America out of it

but yes they are difficult negotiating partners

yes they are

Kim Derek thank you so much

and coming up

how food shortages are apparently

affecting the UK

at least through Russian eyes

welcome back, before we go

we want to play you a clip of Russian television

last night

that was Olga Skabaeva

telling her Russian viewers

that Britain has got so short of food now

that we are killing the squirrels

in our garden

and cooking them

squirrel bogeyneal

squirrel a la chasseur

squirrel murier

what is your favourite squirrel dish

what is my favourite squirrel dish

squirrel ova

I'll tell you something honestly

when I was at university

there was a friend of my mum's

who had this extraordinary

she had this wonderful open house

literally an open door policy

where anyone could wander in

and if they were hungry they could sit down

and she would serve

and I was present for it

squirrel crumble

she shot the squirrels in her garden

they were starving

and she just made a

my key question is this

are we talking a sweet or savoury dish

exactly

it was a savoury dish

because why would you save your protein

for dessert

but you would have the squirrel

with this crumble topping

that went round more people

did you eat squirrel crumble

I think I tactically left

before dinner

but I think it's probably a post war

or a sort of post war generation

that says make not want not

lose not want to do it

it sounds like post starling grad

when you are absolutely at the midst of a siege

all you've got left is the squirrel

is the tail

we're not doing great things here

are we for sort of shutting down propaganda

we've taken the Russia propaganda store

and just gone with it

I think basically they got annoyed

because we showed Ukrainian supermarkets

full of food and vegetables last week

well listen if you're listening to this podcast

and you're having your dinner

bon appetit we'll see you tomorrow

this has been a global player original podcast and a Persephoneka production

Machine-generated transcript that may contain inaccuracies.

The coveted Crimes against the English Language award goes to Penny Mordaunt today for mangling almost a dozen football analogies into one short Commons speech. We are still trying to work out what a left wing striker is but for now what you need to know is that the Conservative frontbench is nervously awaiting a response to their small boats policy from President Macron tomorrow when Rishi Sunak goes to Paris.

The News Agents hear their might be a firm Gallic 'non' coming. So what happens to the returns policy then? And is that why Conservatives want to carry on talking about Gary Lineker for as long as they feasibly can...

You can watch our episodes in full at https://www.globalplayer.com/videos/brands/news-agents/the-news-agents/

The News Agents is a Global Player Original and a Persephonica Production.