Mamamia Out Loud: Why Your Boyfriend Can’t Come To My Wedding

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we have recorded this podcast on,

the Gadigal people of the Eora Nation.

We pay our respects to their elders past and present

and extend that respect to all Aboriginal

and Torres Strait Islander cultures.

Mamma Mia out loud!

Hello and welcome to Mamma Mia out loud.

It's what women are talking about on Friday, the 10th of March.

I'm Holly Wainwright.

I'm Jessi Stevens.

And I'm Claire Murphy from The Quickie,

filling in for Mia today.

Welcome, Claire Murphy.

Out louders are always so happy to have you around.

On today's show, do you have to invite your friend's boyfriend

to your wedding even if he's a dud?

We unpack a listener dilemma.

And our best and worst of the week,

which include book, bribery, eggplant emojis,

mini-breaks and outties.

But first, Jessi Stevens.

Dr. Monique Ryan, Sally Rugg,

reasonable work hours, a flight while positive for COVID,

one person doing the job of four,

a mismatch of expectations.

You've probably seen headlines

about what has become a very public employment dispute.

Every now and then there's a news story that comes along

that I get obsessed with.

And I read every single update and this is one of them.

We actually spoke about this topic weeks ago

for a subscriber episode and explored the subject

of basically what constitutes reasonable

and unreasonable work hours.

You can go and listen to that.

But we have so many more details now

that we want to go deep on this

and I'm really curious as to what you both make of it.

So Dr. Monique Ryan is a teal independent MP

who historically beat Josh Frydenberg at the last election.

So she was quite an important player.

The way it works is that Dr. Ryan,

when she becomes this MP, gets some tax payout funded stuff.

And usually you get about four stuff.

But PM Anthony Albanese recently cut that to just one.

And he said that for Dr. Monique Ryan,

she could only have one staff member.

So in 2022, she hired a woman named Sally Rugg.

You might know that name.

She's best known as an activist.

She was the campaigns director of Get Up

and the former head of Change.org

and instrumental in Marriage Equality Yes campaign.

By the end of 2022, so this is not a long time,

Sally Rugg had resigned.

And due to federal court proceedings, we now know why.

Rugg essentially says she actually didn't resign.

She was told she'd be fired.

And so she is suing Dr. Monique Ryan.

She says that while working for Dr. Ryan,

she worked 70 to 80 hour weeks,

working on both days of the weekend

and on sitting days, she would easily do more than 12 hours.

And here's where things get specific.

Dr. Ryan was known for advocating

for stricter COVID-19 rules during the pandemic.

Obviously she's a doctor.

And she was about masks and was quite sort of,

I guess you'd call it conservative on COVID.

But while working for her, Rugg contracted COVID in Canberra.

The issue is that she then needed to get back to Melbourne.

It was suggested to her, perhaps you could hire a car and drive

so that you don't do the flight.

But she flew knowing she was COVID positive.

Not only did this upset Dr. Ryan because of the ethics,

but also the potential reputational damage.

She was given a formal warning for catching that flight while sick.

And in response, Rugg took stress leave.

When Rugg returned to work,

she said that Dr. Ryan rolled her eyes

and questioned the reason for that leave.

In the end, Dr. Ryan was said to just be really frustrated

by Rugg's performance and said, and this is in the affidavit,

she said, look, I'm going to terminate your employment.

I have made up my mind to terminate you in January.

We can either do it at the end of a performance improvement plan.

Basically, I'm going to phase you out.

Or I could do it right now if I wanted to.

You are not working hard enough

and I need someone who works harder than you.

And that's when Rugg sued her

and has actually fought, this is really interesting,

to remain Dr. Ryan's chief of staff.

A judge this week ruled sensibly

that it would be wholly unreasonable

for Dr. Ryan to be expected to still work

with the woman who is suing her.

But the trial is still pending

and now the big question is

about whether it's unreasonable

or in fact unlawful

to ask one of your employees to work 70 to 80 hour weeks.

This is about politics but it's also not.

There are chefs, nurses, lawyers, doctors,

people listening right now

who do hours that look a lot like that

from probably less than what Sally Rugg was paid.

She was paid $166k a year, which is very generous.

Here's my question.

She felt that Dr. Ryan's expectations were too high of her

and that might have been the case.

But when you are being paid a salary that is high,

can you really expect to be working 38 hours a week?

Is it a surprise that the expectations are high?

Clare Murphy, what do you think?

Look from the outside,

it looks like a terrible boss and an overworked employee

and to a point, that is correct.

However, I mean, if you've ever known anybody

who works for a politician,

you would know full well the kind of hours that they do.

You would know that you work seven days a week.

You know, you often work through holiday periods.

You often are up late,

especially if they're debating some certain piece of legislation.

You might be sitting with them for, you know, almost 24 hours.

I've been asked several times by a couple of politicians

to go and work for them in the past.

They do hire a lot of former journalists,

especially in communications roles.

And every time I have turned them down because I know full well

that that is the expectation as to what I would be forced to do.

And in some of my other jobs that I have had,

I have been paid more and been given more holiday leave

in lieu of the fact that I will be working incredibly long hours

and sometimes seven days a week.

So the question is for $166,000 a year,

was that expectation that she do a Monday to Friday, 9 to 5?

Because there's going to be a lot of people who say,

I want to get paid that much money for doing a Monday to Friday, 9 to 5.

But on the other hand, working seven days a week

is not good for anybody's mental health.

We know this.

So I'm really caught between the two here at the moment

because I feel like she should know this.

She's worked in and around politicians in her previous roles.

She would have a full understanding as to what the expectation would be.

And I feel like maybe she's landed in that and had to live it

and then realized, oh, this is more than I bargained for.

But there are other details to that story as well,

which are if they're true, pretty bad.

Like she got her period one day

and apparently reportedly, allegedly Dr. Ryan

was angry at her for going to buy tampons

and taking time out to go to the toilet,

put in a tampon and come back.

So there's definitely a level of unrealistic expectation there,

but there's also an unrealistic expectation

of what that job entails.

With that story about the tampon,

I found it interesting because I always try and read between the lines

with this stuff to kind of go, okay,

if I were to give the most generous reading to Dr. Ryan, what would it be?

She did say, Sally Rugg said in that,

that she went to one shop and she couldn't find the tampons,

then she went to another shop.

And the timing is all confusing.

But if she had gone missing for half an hour

and no one knew where she was,

then I can kind of see that it wasn't so much about the tampon,

but it might have just been about her being needed and maybe then...

But can you not be out of contact with your employer

for half an hour in a day without them freaking out as to your whereabouts?

Here's my problem with this,

is we're setting it up in a very binary way.

Should you get paid $166,000 a year for working 9 to 5 Monday to Friday,

or does that money buy you 7 days a week, 24-7?

There is an in-between.

And of course there is an in-between,

and I don't think for a second that Sally Rugg or anyone

who goes to work for a politician in Canberra

thinks they're going to be working Monday to Friday, 9 to 5.

But there is a lot of grey area between Monday to Friday, 9 to 5

and 24-7, 7 days a week, relentlessly, week after week, month after month, right?

The reason Sally Rugg is taking this to court

is because she thinks that the culture needs to be challenged.

So what she's saying is, is everything that you've said is absolutely true, Claire Murphy.

Anyone who's been anywhere approximate to politics knows this.

They work insane hours, they are understaffed.

It seems particularly pointed that Albanese should slash the staff

of independent MPs who don't have party apparatus behind them,

which is what if you're a Labour politician or you're a Liberal politician,

there's like more of a team, you know, in the most basic terms to do this work.

For a Teal Independent, it's a couple of people and you're slogging it out, right?

What Sally Rugg is saying is this is not a sustainable way to run a country,

and I agree with her 20 million percent.

Is she saying that?

Yes, she is. She is taking this case to court.

She says to challenge the work culture of Canberra, and she's not alone in that.

There are a lot of people who work for politicians.

It's a very high burnout culture.

So they end up with staffers who are all in their early 20s,

who all have an enormous amount to prove who are all very happy to hand over their lives

because they have that time and that point in their lives.

Terrible things happen.

This is one of the things that's being questioned there about what kind of environment

you're building for employees when it is so high stress, so isolated.

Everybody's away from their families. Everybody's working 24-7.

It isn't great for women. It isn't great for anybody, right?

Sally Rugg is choosing to challenge that with this case.

So I think we're being overly simplistic and a little bit mean in going,

she thought that she was going to get paid loads of money to sit around and file her nails.

That's not the case.

No, no, no, no.

She is challenging a culture in which you are expected to give everything in your life to the job.

And for bosses who have skin in the game, whether it's politics or a business,

you will never work hard enough for them because they have skin in the game, right?

And if that skin happens to also be a cause, like it is for the teals,

where they genuinely think they're trying to change a political culture,

make the world a better place, that's like a calling.

So how could you ever work hard enough for someone who genuinely believes

they're trying to change the world?

I think that it's kind of really sneery to paint this in terms of like,

entitled employee doesn't want to do what they're paid to do.

I think that sometimes you've got to question the system because the problem is,

is if you're only willing to have political staffers and people who work in politics

who can give over their entire lives to it,

the country is run by a very, very specific group of people.

And I would argue they are not the best people to represent us.

But does it seem weird that the way to challenge the system and change the culture

by taking a job where there would be an expectation that you work very long hours,

seven days a week?

Like, would you maybe go into that and negotiate and say,

it's time to change the culture if I work for you,

this is what I'm willing to give of my time and my energy

rather than going in trying to do the job and then deciding to challenge it?

I don't think that she would be the first person who ever thought she could do something

and thought it would be different and then went and did it and went,

oh my God, this is unsustainable.

If you also read the details of this case,

then Dr. Monique Ryan is refuting a lot of what's being said about seven days a week, 12 hours a day.

She's going, that is not what I was asking.

Even the hours, she's saying, that isn't true.

So that's all to be determined by a court of law.

But as Claire says, that is the expectation in politics.

Everybody knows that.

This is not the first time when we talked about it in the subs episode,

I referenced a column written by a political staffer who said,

this is exactly the culture and it's exactly why the issues that end up happening in Canberra do.

And if you're not prepared to work earlier and earlier every day,

later and later every night, then you're seen as not being a team player

and you're not going to get promoted and you're not going to get the good jobs.

And that means, again, that the only people who have got the good jobs

are people who are prepared to hand over their entire life to their job.

And I'm sorry, but $166,000 is a lot of money,

but it is not worth your entire life.

It's not, but reading this,

I keep reading it through the prism of a lot of Australians

who work a lot of hours and who are on call,

who are not paid that generously.

But a lot of them work shifts.

Yes, yes.

But I think that there are a lot of details to this.

Probably my perspective is clear.

I have found myself feeling sympathetic to the employer.

With that said, the thing I can see

is a lot of people will know the feeling of there being cuts

or especially post COVID where four jobs become one

and you're standing there going,

I can't do all of this.

I'm one person.

Again, Monique Ryan has said that's not what she expected.

The other element here is generational, right?

Monique Ryan, the fact she has doctor in front of her name,

said something about the culture she has grown up in

and probably the work ethic she expects

with someone who is younger than her

who's looking around going, this is out of madness.

Sally Rugg's cause I respect,

her method I'm struggling with.

I don't really understand the suing.

I don't understand the suing and the saying,

I still want to work as a chief of staff.

That to me is really unusual.

I think there's some legal complexity there though

is that once you've given it up,

it puts you in a different position.

Often you're advised to try and hold on to your job

for as long as you can.

I want to say also about that point about generational,

I will cop to that for sure.

Generation X, I have been,

having said all I just said about the culture of Canberra,

I have been the boss and the employee

who sometimes rolls my eyes about people who leave

five o'clock on the dot, always take the lunch break

no matter how busy things are, all of those things.

I've definitely been that person and I've also,

and I'm sure many of us have had the experience

of going to work for a boss

who says they don't expect above and beyond,

but they definitely do.

These things are very familiar.

I've definitely been that person,

but what I've learned as I've become wiser in life

is that people who have boundaries,

that very unpopular world in place about their jobs

are not necessarily bad at their jobs.

Claire, I think we're struggling with the same thing,

which are the parts of our brains that go,

on the one hand, I've got the realist

and on the other side, I've got the idealist.

So the realist says,

we exist in a capitalist economy

where this is the job, this is how hard I need you to work.

If you can't do it, if you don't perform,

then I will find someone else who will

and I will pay them accordingly.

And if this doesn't suit you, leave.

And the fact of the matter in Canberra is somebody else will.

100%

Because there is lines of people who are desperate

to get those positions.

And then the idealist says,

with a lot of what I know about, say, medicine,

you could say exactly the same thing, right?

You could say, well, doctor,

80 hours a week is what's expected.

You to do surgery after not sleeping for three days.

And a doctor puts their hand up and goes,

no, this needs to change from the inside.

It's the only way anything changes.

I'm kind of caught between, you know, a rock and a hard place.

Yeah, I'm not sure if politics is the place that this starts, maybe.

I don't know.

We realise systemic change is necessary

where it comes to politics in this country.

I think we're all in agreeance there.

But how we actually make that happen is the question

because we don't know, will suing an MP

for unrealistic expectation of working hours

actually have a flow on effect

and make other politicians pay attention?

We've seen they've done major overhauls

of even training for sensitivity,

which, you know, it doesn't MP still haven't even done

nine months after that was brought in.

We know that they are really slow to pick up

and accept change and run with it.

Do I think that there's going to be systemic change from this?

Probably not.

Do I think that maybe it's a start?

Perhaps.

And I hope for Sally Rogges sake that it does actually shine

a light on the way that people in Canberra are working

because you're right, it does end up being a certain type of person

who ends up being in that place

and that place sometimes harbours

some pretty toxic moments.

So we hope for systemic change.

I don't feel like this is going to be it.

Maybe it's a stepping stone.

And just finally, COVID flight, bad move.

I think whether you're working for a politician or not,

it wasn't illegal at the time, which is what Sally Rogges said,

but you're working for a politician who is a doctor.

Getting on a flight with COVID isn't a good look,

especially when you could have driven.

And I think that that's probably got a lot of people offside as well.

Hi, Mamma Mia, Out Loud ladies.

I love you all.

I have read everything that you guys have ever recommended

over the past couple of years.

And for some reason, for all this time,

I have always just assumed that all of you

read all of these books on your Kindle.

I used to read like a book a month if I was lucky

and now I read at least two.

Get a Kindle.

We will make you read so much more.

I love the show, guys.

Hi, my name's Amy.

This is our question for Out Loud.

Look, I need some advice for my 16-year-old daughter.

Have a bit of a doodle, Amma.

We received an anonymous listener dilemma

and given weddings are very in our world in 2023,

it seems like I'm in the room with the right people to ask this.

The email reads,

Hi, Holly, Jessie, Mia, Hi, Out Loud.

I'm getting married this year and organizing the guest list.

I keep circling back over one name,

currently asterisked on my Invite spreadsheet.

It's my friend's shitty boyfriend.

Let's call her Sarah.

We've been friends for 10 years and she's an awesome chick.

She has a great job, is hardworking,

volunteers with a charity, all-round wonderful person and friend.

Given that, I'm constantly baffled by the complete deadbeat

she's dated since I met her.

She's been seeing someone for the better part of a year.

He would describe himself as someone who likes a good time.

I would describe him as a liability.

He recently got wasted at a dinner party at my house

and vomited in the bath.

Oh, fab.

Even though he wouldn't admit to it.

If he comes to my wedding, I'm nervous he'll embarrass himself,

my friend and me and my fiance.

Oh, Sarah is not a bestie bridesmaid,

but I would definitely describe her as one of my good friends.

She's really complicated about not giving her a plus one.

What should I do?

This is not complicated.

Tell us.

It's not complicated.

I'm going to call Sarah's temporary boyfriend, Fred.

Fred's not coming.

There's no way in hell Fred is coming to this wedding.

It is simple, lying in the sand.

Firstly, how do you do that?

How do you tell Sarah that Fred can't come?

You don't tell her.

You send an invite that has no plus one,

that does not have his name on it

and you say, you're invited, Sarah, to my wedding,

because you're great and I love you.

And then if she comes back and says,

hey, why can't my dickhead come?

Then you say, well, I've had to be really strict with numbers.

I don't care if you have a wedding with 100 or 400 people.

I've had to draw a line.

He's not on the list.

Whatever.

You are organizing a wedding.

There is a lot to do.

There is a lot to consider.

Do not spend another minute of your life thinking about stupid Fred.

He's not coming.

My wedding...

But she could blow up her entire friendship with Sarah

and Sarah's a top chick.

Then Sarah doesn't deserve to be your friend.

Sarah also needs to take responsibility for her own dickhead.

Yes.

Like if she's going to bring a dickhead around

and he does dickhead things,

then she needs to be respectful of the fact that it's her

who's being the vessel to bring this person into other people's lives.

I have said this.

Me and my partner have said about other people with dickhead partners.

You get to choose your dickhead.

You don't get to project your dickhead onto me.

Do not inflict that dickhead onto dinners with me,

onto my wedding.

We have people who have been with their partners for years and years.

It's not even that we don't like them.

It's that you have to be ruthless if it's them or it's your auntie

or it's your godparent or whatever.

We had a policy that was when we're standing there

and there's a ceremony and you look around.

Firstly, we want to know everyone who's there

and you don't want to look around and feel as though

the moment is stolen or undermined by someone that you don't even care about.

If he has behaved like that at dinner parties,

your instinct that he will embarrass you at your wedding is probably spot on

and that is not a distraction you need on your wedding date.

Isn't a drunk dickhead at a wedding just a necessary ingredient at a wedding?

There'll be enough of those.

It's a good story to tell later on when you're not angry about it anymore.

Because I agree with you, Jesse.

I don't think Fred should be at the wedding either.

If I get an invitation that doesn't have a partner's name on it,

I just go, fine, I get it.

I don't know whether that's because you don't like him

or whether it's because you're not doing partners.

Yeah, but there's so much emotion tied up in weddings.

I've never seen more insanity from my friends and family

than when I was planning my wedding.

People literally lose their minds because of small things

that they felt should have been done differently,

felt that they should have been involved in.

It's such a highly emotional moment

and it's so odd that people still put so much on a wedding like this.

It seems so strange to me that people cared if I had a bridal party or not

or that I didn't want a cake.

People are so emotionally attached to these finer details.

I've had a situation where one of my very, very good friends has had her own dickhead

and luckily they broke up before my wedding.

This wasn't an issue for the wedding,

but it was an issue for many other things in our lives

over the years that she was with him.

Lots of things happened of his dickheadish behaviour

that eventually I thought, you know what, I've done enough.

I've put in enough to try and be okay with him.

I've put in the effort to befriend him

and still he acts terribly around me.

So I thought, yep, this could probably blow up my friendship,

but I'm just going to become more and more resentful towards her anyway

if I don't say something.

So I took her aside and this actually happened

directly after she asked me to be in her wedding.

She was actually engaged to this dickhead at one stage

and I said, can I think about it?

And when I went away, I was like, no, can't do this.

I have to be honest with her.

If she is my good friend, she will understand and we'll sort it out.

If she's not, then this is a phase of my life I need to move on from.

So I confronted her, well, not confronted her,

but I sat down with her and I said, look,

I can't in good conscience stand up with you when you marry this guy

knowing everything that he's done to you around you to other people.

I said, I love you, just truly adore you,

but I can't in good conscience stand up next to you

and watch you attach your life to him.

I understand if you're upset with me.

I understand if you don't want to talk to me, but at this point,

I think I've got to be really honest with you

because you are truly one of my best, best friends

and I don't want to see you hurt,

which I feel like is going to happen if you get married to this guy.

So it was a moment where we kind of stared each other down

she left, we didn't speak for a little while,

then she emailed me probably about a month later.

She said, I haven't got the energy to talk to you face to face right now,

but I just wanted you to know I've broken off my engagement

and I think I'm going to end the relationship.

I feel like that confrontation opened my eyes to some things

and I've spoken with other people who've now been honest with me and said the same.

Oh, wow.

She then literally met the man of her dreams who she married

and is still married to today.

So I feel like there has got to be a point

if your friend is a good enough friend that you can be honest with them

and you can say to them, I love you,

but I can't do this with the person you've chosen to be with.

That story is wild.

I would never do that in a million years.

Really?

Because my position is I think, of course,

you should share concerns about a friend

if you think their partner is abusive, toxic, dickhead, etc.

Yes, but if I was your friend, my position would be

that's my decision, mate, it's not yours.

It's got nothing to do with you.

If I've decided that I'm marrying him,

you're my friend, you support me.

That would be my line.

I'm very happy that it ended up the way it did,

but it could have gone very much the other way.

I keep thinking, looking at King Charles' coronation,

I have this surprising affinity with King Charles at the moment,

trying to organize my own coronation for the end of the month.

I love that you've compared your wedding to the crowning of a king.

I'm like, oh, King Charles, I get it,

because we've all got a Megan and Harry

who is on our guest list deciding whether to RSVP or not.

And what I would say about your friend Sarah

and associated dickhead is that you have all these guests

and all this drama to worry about,

and you're wondering whether you can seat Uncle Bla next to Uncle X.

Do not worry about this.

If she makes this a big fuss,

and this is to anyone who is currently the guest

of a wedding or something, please don't bring fuss.

Please don't bring complication to the wedding.

Just say yes and come.

Yeah, exactly right.

Or say no and don't.

Or say no, that's totally fine.

But the mental load of trying to organize all of this stuff,

you are not the most important thing.

And you know, he does not even factor in the top 200 things

that matter on that day.

So no, I'm just so glad that we've decided Fred isn't coming.

Fred's not going.

See you, Fred.

To make out loud part of your routine five days a week,

we release segments on Tuesdays and Thursdays

just for Mamma Mia subscribers.

To get full access, follow the link in the show notes,

and a big thank you to all our current subscribers.

It's time for best and worst.

Claire Murphy.

I'll kick off with my worst.

So I have got a problem that has been plaguing me

for a very long time.

It is physical.

Many, many years ago when I was a teenager,

I broke my cruciate ligament, had a knee reconstruction.

The graft failed, had a second knee reconstruction,

and that also too is failing.

And I now have got a bone on bone situation

in one of my knees, which is awful.

But I of course have left it for a very long time

because I feel like I've done so much

and had so much surgery.

What possibly else could they do to actually write this thing?

It's awful.

I can't walk.

I can barely exercise.

I've been putting on weight.

It gets harder and harder as you get older and older,

especially when you can't move as much to lose weight.

I thought, you know, I'm going to knuckle down.

I'm going to go speak to medical professionals

who can guide me and actually get me on the track

to being stronger and healthier and in less pain.

But one of those medical professionals is the physio.

And I do love my physio.

She also writes fantasy novels and is in the local drama production.

Love her.

Fun lady.

So fun lady.

But she has decided that I can tolerate a bit of pain

so she's going to inflict it so I can get better.

And this is where yesterday I was on the table

and I have some scar tissue,

which is pulling things in the wrong direction.

Now the way to get rid of scar tissue is you literally

have to disconnect it from what it's attaching to, right?

So she gets me down on the table and she's like,

right, this is going to hurt.

So like she is like knuckles deep in my leg

disconnecting scar tissue from whatever the hell it is attached

to and causing issues while I lay on the table and try

and maintain like friendly banter with her.

Because it's like, I don't want her to know how much pain I'm in

and that I'm close to throwing up.

I'm just going to like, I'm going to battle on

and I'm going to be so proud of myself when I come out

the other side of this.

But holy Moses, that was a rough one.

When my leg was broken and it was black and it was recovering

from surgery one week afterwards,

I had a physio massage it and hard.

And apparently it helps with bruising and scar tissue

and everything you're talking about.

And it was one of the most painful experiences of the process.

Looking back, worth it.

He was doing the right thing.

I trusted him.

You've got to really trust them, but damn, it hurts.

And you're just like gritting your teeth,

counting down, going, it can't be going for that long.

Yeah.

Like it's going to end.

Yes.

So yes, that journey continues.

But my best is, my husband rang me on Friday

and it's like, hey, do you want to go stay at the beach

for the weekend?

And I was like, oh, here we go.

Because it means getting out the bloody camper trailer

and doing all that.

Oh yeah.

And I was previously disgusted.

You don't like the beach.

I do not love the beach, not the outdoors type.

Anyway, he could sense my hesitation.

So he says, what about if I book a cabin?

Oh.

And I was like, okay, this is getting better.

And he goes, actually, they have deluxe cabins

at this caravan park.

And I was like, well, that sounds delightful.

So he booked it.

He organized everything.

I literally just packed my bag and the kids bag

and we got in the car and we drove down

to Brooby Beach, which is beautiful at Anna Bay.

He says to me, there's no expectations of this weekend,

which is unusual for my husband because he's a do-do-doer

on a holiday.

And so he's like, it's no expectations.

If you want to read a book, read a book.

If you want to just chill out, chill out.

I'll go fishing.

The kid, you know, I'll take it on the beach.

We can go for a swim in the pool, whatever.

And I legitimately had the most relaxing weekend I've had

in forever.

It was glorious.

Oh, so jealous.

I love that.

I don't want people to get an unrealistic expectation

of how good my husband is at doing stuff like this

because this is rare.

But it was lovely.

And it's great.

And it should be acknowledged.

My worst, I had one of those realizations on Sunday

that I'm not the kind of parent I ever thought I would be.

And when I tell this story, Jesse Stevens is going to go like,

that will never happen to me.

No, because I'm actually the perfect parent right now.

Yeah.

When the baby hasn't come out, I can't tell you how great

I am at parenting, but I'm better than both of you put together.

This particular issue, you will think,

that will never happen to me.

I am a reader.

I am a writer.

I have read books my entire life and I love reading books.

They're a big part of my life.

My 13-year-old daughter, do you think she wants to read books?

Does not want to read books.

I didn't read books at 13.

She used to read books when she was little.

Now, no interest, right?

No interest.

And there is nothing that feels more smug for me

than seeing one of my kids with their face in a book.

If that ever happens, I take a picture.

I hold it close to my heart.

I'm like, look at my child.

They're reading a book.

That's why she's not reading a book, Holly.

Well, obviously.

There are many parents relating to this right now

because kids these days,

they have a lot of other things to do

and they don't want to read books.

Me and my daughter in a fight about this all the time.

Every night.

I need a book, babe.

She has piles of books next to her bed.

I'm always buying her books.

I think this will be it.

I even buy her books

that I think are a bit inappropriate like Twilight.

I bought her that.

I was like, maybe a bit of sexy vampire.

Might get her reading again.

I don't care.

Has she read Tomorrow When the War began?

Got those next to her bed.

Okay.

Doesn't want to read those either.

Oh, Matilda.

Found myself in a shopping centre

on our way back from Harry Styles on Sunday,

bribing my daughter like this.

If you come into this bookshop with me

and you choose a book, any book in the entire shop

that you will actually read,

I will then take you three stores down to Mecca

and buy you an affordable, small treat from Mecca

in order to get you to buy a book.

And I was like, I never thought I would be a parent

who's bribing my daughter with fucking beauty products

to read a book.

I like that.

This is where we get to.

Did she accept?

Of course she accepted.

Was it a good book?

So she went and she chose a book

and it's a YA book

and it looks like it's probably got drugs in it.

Great.

I don't care.

And then we went down to Mecca

and bought her some like face spray thing that she wanted.

Okay.

Well, you know,

Mia's going to need to know what the face spray was.

I know.

I'll tell you at some later point.

And I was like, okay.

And now, obviously it's a few days later

and I haven't really been home,

but every day I'm texting her,

have you started the book?

Have you started the book?

I'm going to start it tonight, Mum.

When I get home tomorrow,

if she hasn't started yet,

I'm going to march into her bedroom

and remove the face spray.

She's going to be too busy spraying her face to read.

My worst is that thing of like, you just...

Also, if my mum said to me every day,

have you started reading the book?

Have you started reading the book?

My whole personality would be like,

stuff you, Mum.

I'm now not going to read the book.

100% but we've been having this argument for you.

Like just read a book, babe.

Just read a book.

I know.

It's so good for the soul.

Anyway, my best is vegetables.

They can't even compete with Harry Styles.

Breathing the same air as Harry Styles

as I did on Sunday night

and it was as glorious as I hoped

that when I got home on Sunday,

my eggplants were bigger.

My zucchinis are big.

Are you saying this is directly related to Harry Styles

being in the same place?

No, it's just that I was going to be, of course,

my best of the week is Harry Styles,

but it's not its vegetables.

It's like, I've already recommended gardening.

It's the most middle-aged thing I'm doing.

Are you worried about bugs?

Not at this point,

but my friends who are much more advanced than me,

because my friends like to lull at me.

They say this is a stage that everyone

who moves to the country goes through

where they're like, look at me growing vegetables.

It's so exciting.

I know so, but I literally get home.

I'm like, how big is it today?

And then I ate some of the vegetables I grew.

It's just, I love it.

So my best of the week.

And then also I've been really enjoying

posting my niche vegetable patch content

with inappropriate emoji.

Here is my eggplant emoji for how big my eggplants are

and everybody messages me and says,

you do know what that means.

And I say, of course I know what it means.

I'm trying to reclaim it.

Move on with your life.

What's your best and worst?

My worst of the week is, you know,

when you are feeling overwhelmed

and then it's the weirdest thing

that just knocks you over the edge.

I dropped something on my foot.

That was the edge.

But you do have a lot going on.

Over the weekend and people keep saying that

and they're like, oh, it's a lot going on.

I'm like, I'm fine.

I'm fine. I'm fine. I'm fine.

Just not. I'm not fine.

I'm absolutely not fine.

I am looking at three months,

which are just baby, wedding, car,

book edits have come through trying to buy a house.

No human should do all of those things within three months.

It is not good for you.

I am losing my mind completely.

Speaking to me about it the other day

and I sort of got to the bottom of what I think it is.

I think it's that you've got too much on, babe.

That's what it is.

It's not a mystery.

But, and I've got to remind myself of this

because when I get busy, I get really irritable

and almost of it high horsey.

If someone else isn't as busy,

I get really just like, what are you doing?

And busyness is your own fault.

Like I decide, you know, what I take on and what I don't.

Plus you got knocked up.

You knew what you were doing.

Yes. Yes.

And six months ago, people said,

that's going to be a really intense period

and I didn't listen to them.

But I think that what's behind it is a sense

that when that baby comes out, life is over.

And I think it is like every work opportunity.

So I'm saying yes to absolutely everything

because I'm like, well, you are going to be irrelevant,

unemployable, unimportant.

You're not going to be able to do any,

I don't know what I think I'm going to be doing.

So what are you basing this on?

I don't know.

The two women that you've offended.

I know.

Now who both have children.

I would say this to her because they're all the same.

She said all the young women here,

they're like, I've got to do everything before I have a baby.

And I'm like sitting here offended.

I'm like, I had babies.

I still exist.

But I look at you two and think what you do

when your skills in your career isn't as irreplaceable.

I think it's an insecurity thing that comes from thinking

I'm at a particular moment in my life

where there's jobs that I'm enjoying,

but the second I stop doing those jobs,

you'll be replaced and then you come back.

That's very normal.

And it's really scary.

And I think people get better at this

when they have more kids.

Like they know after the second they kind of go,

it's actually going to be okay.

But people don't forget about you in a three, six months.

Yeah.

And you see, I've had this anxiety

when I've gone on a holiday for two weeks

to be going into this period

and to think I'm not going to be able to do anything.

It just means that I'm absolutely drowning,

completely overwhelmed.

I've kind of looked at the next few months and gone,

is there anything I can rearrange a bit?

Not the wedding.

Yes, exactly.

Can I give you some advice?

I'm not much of an advice keeper,

but I completely understand where you're coming from.

I actually got fired when I was eight months pregnant.

So I went into maternity leave without a job to go back to.

And that was really terrifying.

Same thing.

I thought by the time I've done this,

you know, delivery of a whole person

and then get it to a point

where it doesn't need me every second of the day.

However long that takes,

what am I going to do when I go back?

Are people going to be like,

oh no, she's a new mum now.

She's not the same person.

The thing that really shifted for me

was a conversation I had with a friend

and she was like,

stop missing the moment.

She was like, you have to learn to be more present

in the moment right now.

I'm not very good at that.

Stop forecasting the doom of your next six months to a year

because that is worst case scenario

and the chances of that actually becoming true

are pretty slim,

considering the range of skills that you do actually have,

whether you believe that or not.

So it's just like a practice

and it's not easy because

like we used to doom predictions.

Yeah, yeah.

And so it's hard to stop yourself

but she said, just give yourself a moment,

like sit on the couch with that tiny human

and get to know them

and don't sit there catastrophizing everything

that's going to come from that point on

and it helped.

It really did.

It's not an easy thing to do but it did help.

My best of the week

was interviewing Lin-Manuel Miranda.

Oh my God, I'm so jealous.

That is my whole path.

Oh, he has a kindest eyes.

Someone said recently,

like who would you,

if you could interview anyone in the world?

And I was like, oh, great question.

Lin, like he is my number one guy.

He is just so smart.

When you've got five, 10 minutes to interview someone,

it's like how much can you really get out of them

but to speak to him

and to know that he is exactly like he appears all the time,

friendly and an absolute genius,

just to somewhat be in his presence

was an absolute honour.

So speaking to Lin-Manuel Miranda,

definitely my best of the week.

I have a quick recommendation before we go

that is very unusual for me.

Although I gave an unusual recommendation last week

and my friend messaged me and said,

you're not allowed to give recommendations anymore

because I said the menu.

A lot of people said that.

Yeah, and it's kind of a horror movie

and I maybe didn't make that clear enough.

Quite a few people messaged me and said,

what the fuck is wrong with you?

And this one is also a bit strange

because you've probably seen it everywhere

but I was resisting watching it

because it doesn't sound like my thing, The Last of Us.

You're watching The Last of Us, Claire?

I am watching it.

I've just started.

I'm on episode three.

My sister is obsessed with this.

She says it's amazing.

If you don't think there's hope for the world,

why bother going on?

You haven't seen the world.

So you don't know.

Why are you so important?

Somewhere out west.

They're working on a cure.

If I'm taking you with me,

you do what I say when I say it.

You got any advice on the best way west?

Yeah, go east.

So the reason I didn't want to watch it

is because it's based on a video game.

I'm like, yeah, right.

How good can it be if it's based on a video game?

Yeah, apocalypse and zombies.

There are zombies.

Yeah.

They are mushroom zombies.

It's a very specific kind of zombie.

Yeah, I don't like that.

And so all of those things.

No, no, no.

So the reason I started watching it

is because in my house, Brent and I have shows

we watch together, you know, like it's a together show.

We're not allowed to watch ahead.

Yeah, and he loves zombies.

So I thought, let's watch a zombie thing together.

Maybe our new show, you know, Throw Him a Bone.

Yeah.

It's brilliant.

It is so good.

It is so interesting and it's storytelling.

It's got this really nonlinear plot.

It is not like a video game.

It has amazing performances.

It stars Pedro Pascal, who is so hot.

Are you in love with him?

Hot.

Oh, yeah.

Actually, he was the one who got his eyes squeezed out

in Game of Thrones by the mountain or whatever.

So hot.

He was also the Mandalorian.

It was the Mandalorian.

That's where Brent knows him from

because he's a Star Wars geek.

He was also in that one about the cocaine narcos.

The narcos.

Hot and really, really good.

He's the main guy.

Also, Bella Ramsey.

They were in Game of Thrones also, actually.

Really, really brilliant actor.

And Ozzie's Anatove.

She was in the newsreader.

She's in it.

Pivotal part.

Murray Bartlett, you know,

Ormond from White Lotus.

Oh, yeah.

Yeah.

He's in it.

It's just great.

Obviously, there's violence.

Obviously, there's zombies.

If there are things that you are not going to be into,

but it's like smart zombies,

interesting zombies.

Episode three is so beautiful.

The one with Ormond in it.

Like, I can't even tell you.

I know what you're...

I'll watch it this weekend.

Where is everyone watching?

It is on Binge.

There are nine episodes,

and it's dropping weekly.

That is my recommendation.

If you're looking for something else to listen to

on yesterday's subscriber segment,

Mia shared her genius closet editing system.

She's a woman with...

Well, she says she doesn't have as many closers.

We think she does.

I question that.

She has overflow in the office.

Yes.

Not even in her own house.

I know.

I don't think she realizes how few clothes we have.

Most people have.

Yeah, exactly.

You can listen to that and catch up on all our exclusive

subscriber content via the link in our show notes.

Thank you for listening to Mamma Mia Out Loud.

This episode is produced by Emma Gillespie

with audio production by Leah Porges

and assistant production from Susanna Makin.

Thank you, Claire Murphy, for filling in for Mia.

Thanks for having me, friends.

She's a little bit poorly.

We will be back in your ears next week.

Bye.

Bye.

Shout out to any Mamma Mia subscribers listening.

If you love the show and you want to support us,

subscribing to Mamma Mia is the very best way to do it.

There's a link in the episode description.

Machine-generated transcript that may contain inaccuracies.