Mamamia Out Loud: What Lizzo Didn't Do

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Mamma Mia Out Loud!

Hello and welcome to Mamma Mia Out Loud, what women are actually talking about on Friday, August the 4th.

My name is Holly Wainwright.

I'm Mia Friedman and I'm Claire Stevens.

On the show today, a sex club, a lawsuit, many, many Instagram statements

and the headlines no one wants to believe.

What the hell is going on with Lizzo?

Also, Claire Stevens has a very impressive party trick

and with the other world cup that's happening right now, we're rolling it out.

Yes, Claire Stevens can tell what netball position you are just by looking at you, just by your vibe.

We're going to test that theory and our best and worst of the week, which include far away weddings.

Mia's setting fire to stuff and the terrible plight of trying to find a coffee after three o'clock.

But first, Claire Stevens.

In case you missed it, in the Northern Hemisphere, it's the summer of marriage breakdowns

and this week we got news of one that really shocked me.

You know how there are those couples that you assume are just always going to be together?

Like Michelle and Obama.

Yeah!

Well, Michelle and Barack Obama.

Sorry.

Michelle and Obama, he is known only by his last name.

Michelle and Obama.

Yeah, that's so true.

But still, never.

What, is she not going to be Michelle Obama anymore?

No.

Like Hillary and Clinton.

Yeah, exactly like Hillary and Clinton.

Not so much Hillary and Clinton.

This week we learnt that Canadian Prime Minister Justin Trudeau has announced his split from wife Sophie Gregoire Trudeau after 18 years of marriage.

An interesting fact is that Justin Trudeau's father, Pierre, also ended his marriage when he was Prime Minister in 1977.

I don't know if there's something in the air in the Northern Hemisphere, but they are not the only ones

because other marriages that have ended just in the last few months include Sophia Vergara and Joe Manganiello.

Ariana Grande and Dalton Gomez.

We've had a chat about Ariana on a subs episode.

Reese Witherspoon and Jim Toth, Ricky Martin and Juan Joseph, Billy Porter and Adam Smith and Kevin Costner and Christine Bormgartner.

But I'm very sad about the Trudeaus.

I really thought they were quite lovely together.

But they were.

They had 18 years.

I've got three kids.

Like, that's a good run.

I think we have to stop saying that's a failure.

Like, I think we need to reframe it.

I agree with you, Mia.

You know, that's definitely my song sheet.

But I'm just going to say it.

There's something a little bit suspicious about politicians who are prepared to split while they are still in office because 99% of the time,

if everything was amicable in this split, you'd go, let's just hold on till you're not Prime Minister anymore.

Then we'll announce it.

They might have been living separate lives.

Everybody's getting on with things.

They're very mature.

Things are fine.

The fact that you're willing to risk the image damage that a high-profile divorce will make halfway through your term because he's going to run for re-election again in two years.

I smell a little scandal.

What you're saying is, Justin Trudeaus, a dirty dog.

Is that what you're saying?

Well, there have been rumours.

Yeah, I think he might be a dirty dog.

Also, this is scurrilous gossip that the marriage was open.

But like, sometimes things just run out of road.

Reformer dancers have filed a lawsuit accusing the singer of sexual harassment and racial discrimination along with creating a hostile work environment.

We had already been kind of fearing for our jobs and being ostracized.

It's an understanding in the camp that if you don't really participate and, you know, try to get in with Lizzo,

you won't be booked on as many jobs.

She won't like you as much.

What goes on tour stays on tour until it doesn't.

Just last month, Lizzo was touring Australia.

I was surprised that she was here.

I would have bought tickets had I known.

Early this week, though, three of her dancers filed legal action against the singer.

They were not dancers who were on the Australian tour.

They left the tour earlier in the year.

They have accused Lizzo of sexual harassment and fat shaming and creating a toxic work environment.

Now, this is a civil case, not a criminal one, which means that they are suing her for a financial settlement.

It's not actually about crimes.

Lizzo has denied the claims in a statement that she released on Instagram, which we'll get to in a moment.

But let's just wade through some of the claims.

The plaintiffs of the suit are three dancers who worked with Lizzo on a number of projects in the last two years.

Ariana Davis and Crystal Williams, who you heard at the beginning of this segment,

they began performing with Lizzo after competing on her reality show in 2021.

And they were on the most recent tour with her, which is where a lot of these allegations take place.

Ariana was allegedly fired for filming a private meeting.

Williams was also fired while management cited budget cuts,

as Williams believes that it was for a different reason.

And the third plaintiff is Noelle Rodriguez.

She was also hired in 2021 after performing in one of Lizzo's music videos.

She also was on the most recent tour, but she resigned at the start of this year, too.

Now, the three dancers just for context, right?

They spent close to two years around Lizzo, not like every day.

I don't think the tour was going solidly for two years,

but they have all performed with her on multiple occasions, including this most recent tour.

The list of allegations is complicated, but I'm going to take you through the top line of them.

Firstly, the suit accuses Lizzo of calling attention to the dancer's weight.

The fat-shaming has been the most shocking.

Lizzo, of course, is iconic in the impact that she's had in the body diversity movement

and just her visibility as a plus-size woman of colour in an industry where most pop stars are straight-sized.

This fat-shaming allegation, I wanted to read more about that to understand it

because I watched the Lizzo documentary recently

and it showed her having auditions.

The backup dancers that she uses on her tour and when she performs at awards shows,

they're all women who you would not normally see in those contexts.

She did seem, in this documentary, to take a lot of care of them,

but Ariana Davis says that the singer and her choreographer told her,

after an appearance at a music festival, South by Southwest,

that she seemed less committed to her role and that she wasn't dancing well enough, I guess.

She says that was a thinly veiled comment about her weight.

Now, I have to say, when I read that, I was a bit like,

well, is that fat-shaming?

That was her perception, but that's the allegation.

Then there are a whole lot of allegations around Time in Amsterdam

over a couple of nights around Lizzo and a lot of the casting crew going to a sex club.

This is after performances and Lizzo allegedly began inviting cast members

to take turns touching the nude performers, catching sex toys being used by the performers.

It's alleged Lizzo encouraged one of the plaintiffs to touch the breasts of the performer in the club

and when she declined, Lizzo began to chant encouragement for her to do so.

Then there are some other claims of harassment by the dance captain,

who's, I guess, the choreographer, who apparently is very religious

and was preaching her Christian beliefs and some people found that upsetting

and she also publicly discussed that one of the dancers was a virgin despite being asked not to.

Then there are these allegations of a toxic workplace,

which is kind of the third part of the suit,

where they were saying that sometimes rehearsals would go on for like 12 hours,

one dancer said she was fearful to go to the toilet so she urinated during the rehearsal

and that she was given a see-through garment and, you know, those sorts of things.

Then some dancers were fired because they were accused of drinking and behaving inappropriately

and then someone tried to film a meeting and then someone held their phone

and said, did you film this meeting?

And so then it was a charge of false imprisonment.

So when you hear things like false imprisonment, fat shaming, sexual harassment,

the reason that we've just gone through all of that is that usually you just read those headlines.

Claire, what do you think?

I think the reporting around this has been lazy and misleading

and I'm annoyed about it because I agree.

You see the articles that you read.

They say nine areas of misconduct, their sexual, racial, religious harassment, disability, discrimination,

false imprisonment, weight shaming, and that's all you see in these articles.

And you go, oh my God, I cannot believe that Lizzo, somebody who has built her brand

on inclusivity and being a woman of color who is a performer that we haven't seen very often,

I can't believe she's accused of these things.

And I went through and read the entire lawsuit from start to finish.

And I just think what's frustrating is that what is being put out there

and what are the details in the lawsuit are two different things.

You read the lawsuit and to be honest, you think she does sound like a bit of a dick.

Like she sounds like a bit of Lizzo.

Yeah, she sounds there's a story about her.

One dancer came to her and was annoyed about how the two other dancers were treated and how they were fired.

And Lizzo basically yelled at her and said, you're lucky to still be here.

And that dancer said she felt like Lizzo was going to hit her and Lizzo was like restrained by other dancers.

These are aggrieved ex-employees, but you hear stories like that and you think,

okay, clearly there is something going on here where people did not feel supported in their work environment.

There are things like the sex club instance where what I find fascinating is that being a dancer in general

and being a dancer for a performer like Lizzo is a sexualized environment

because of the music that she performs, because of what you're doing on stage, because of the costumes you're wearing.

And so I guess it doesn't necessarily feel like if you were to take me and Holly to a sex club, that would feel somewhat different.

I don't think that's a defense.

I think that you can have a sexualized environment.

I mean, we've seen this often with claims that actors have made about whether or not they felt safe performing sex scenes or nudity on camera.

It doesn't mean just because you're performing something sexual that you are inviting sexual activity.

Yes, yes, 100%. I agree with that. I agree with that.

Well, it used to be that rock stars were rock stars. I mean, Ozzy Osbourne, if anyone remembers him, notoriously bit the head off a live bat on the stage,

which no one is supporting.

But do you think that our standards have just changed so much?

Because a lot of what I read about the lawsuit as well was just that she was a bit of a dick.

But is this a story? Is this worthy of a lawsuit?

This is why this is interesting to me, right?

Is that particularly the sex club part, which predictably I was very interested in because it's salacious.

And it also reminded me that actually the first time I ever went to a strip club ever, I was taken there by a boss with a group of professional acquaintances.

This is a very long time ago, right?

I think that they used to be a sort of like, come on, are you approved?

Do you want to come to this kind of thing, kind of vibe going on that we all used to sort of accept to a point you would accept in order to fit in with this culture and get ahead?

You might have to do things like that.

And that's what these dancers are saying about Lizzo and not just Lizzo, Lizzo's people.

They're saying that the Amsterdam incident and another naked dance club in Paris, you didn't have to go.

Like the dancers weren't forced to go, but they're saying if you didn't go, you kind of weren't in the cool crowd.

You weren't going to get the good gigs and the good position and Lizzo wasn't going to like you.

And what surprises me, I think that I assume that these days high profile people know better than to behave like that around employees because the risks are so high.

So where once, as I was saying, you're like, oh, the boss will like it if we go to the sex club and we do the things they want us to do.

And I don't mean performing sex acts, but you know, going along with the joke and being cool with it.

Being like a good sport.

Yeah, being a good sport.

And you know, they're saying in this that Lizzo was encouraging them to interact with the dancers and all those things.

You can imagine the pressure to do it.

I am surprised that in 2023, someone as high profile as Lizzo allowed that to happen.

I do want to acknowledge that it's not easy to file a lawsuit.

Like it's a lot of work.

And in order for these three dancers to have been galvanized enough to put this in writing and to have pursued the legal process, they clearly feel that they have experienced unfair behavior.

And they're also not the only ones because a lot of people have come out and said me too about this.

So I don't think that we can dismiss it out of hand.

I was thinking, though, about Truth or Dare, the award-winning Madonna documentary that covered her tour in the 80s, I think, or maybe the early 90s.

And I was thinking about the fact that a lot of performers have prayer circles, including Madonna, famously, a prayer circle before they go on.

Could that be considered in this new climate of sensitivity, religious harassment, and proselytizing?

Yeah, I think if you're being fought, you have to come into the prayer circle and you must participate.

I think all those things are very difficult now.

Tellingly, Lizzo, who has made a statement and she's denied the claims and, you know, she's touched on some details and not others, she's hired an absolute killer lawyer.

According to Forbes, she's lawyered up with Marty Singer. He's been awarded entertainment lawyer of the year more than once.

He's rep Charlie Sheen, Bill Cosby, John Travolta, Kim Kardashian, Jonah Hill, everyone who's faced a scandal.

Because really, the big question here, as you've said, Mia, it's not a criminal case, but this is so reputation damaging for Lizzo.

Like, enormously reputation damaging for Lizzo.

So I'm not surprised that she's got the best that money can buy to try and get her out of this.

And it's worth noting that so this lawsuit came out and then a bunch of other people came out to support the allegations.

So people Lizzo has worked with and there are Instagram stories.

There are tweets saying that Lizzo self-centred, arrogant and unkind, all of which is not a crime.

But it's people rockstar.

But it's people saying, yes, I support these dances.

I've seen this behavior.

But I think what I have found really disappointing is how the discourse has unraveled since this came out.

Because there has been so much fat shaming and fat phobia that people have responded with, which is incredibly ironic,

because the suit is actually, to some degree, about fat shaming.

So do you mean that people have just gone, now I can, I don't have to hide my distaste?

Just taste for Lizzo.

And I can say horrible things about her because we're all piling onto Lizzo right now.

Yeah, people are posting photos of elephants and being like, there's Lizzo.

Like people feel like they have license to be absolutely cruel about her in terms of her race and her size.

And it's almost as if all of this was bubbling beneath the surface and this has given people permission to be cruel.

Yeah, but I can't think of another famous person this has happened to since Ellen.

What does that mean?

I think what it says is that when you build your brand on kindness, inclusivity, diversity,

you are building something that's really, really, really sensitive.

And do you mean you're held to a high standard?

Yes, you're making yourself a target.

You're making yourself a high profile target because back to your rock star point, Mia,

and why people aren't saying this about high profile male rock stars, who I'm sure have said a million inappropriate things

and all those things.

It's partly because of that expectation.

It's really interesting when I was in the Mama Mia office earlier this week.

There are a lot of Lizzo fans in that office, a lot of people who went to see her.

It's almost like they didn't want to read the stories.

They didn't want this to be true.

But then on the other hand, they feel so strongly because they've bought into Lizzo's brand,

if you like, of inclusivity, that they're like the devastation they're feeling about the idea they may have been

almost tricked is how they feel into thinking that Lizzo is something she wasn't.

That's not the case if someone is just an asshole front and center all the time.

And I'm not saying that I think that Lizzo's tricked anybody.

As I said before, I think the standard of perfection is impossible.

I think it's important to just read her statement.

She released a statement on Instagram yesterday and it said,

These last few days have been gut wrenchingly difficult and overwhelmingly disappointing.

My work ethic, morals and respectfulness have been questioned.

My character has been criticised.

Usually I choose not to respond to false allegations,

but these are as unbelievable as they sound and too outrageous not to be addressed.

These sensationalist stories are coming from former employees

who've already publicly admitted that they were told their behaviour on tours

is inappropriate and unprofessional.

As an artist, I've been very passionate about what I do.

I take my music and performance seriously because at the end of the day,

I only want to put out the best art that represents me and my fans.

With passion comes hard work and high standards.

Sometimes I have to make hard decisions,

but it's never my intention to make anyone feel uncomfortable

or like they aren't valued as an important part of the team.

This bit's interesting.

I'm not here to be looked at as a victim,

but I also know that I am not the villain that people in the media

have portrayed me to be these last few days.

I am very open with my sexuality and expressing myself,

but I cannot accept or allow people to use that openness

to make me out to be something I'm not.

There is nothing I take more seriously than the respect we deserve as women in the world.

I know what it feels like to be body shamed on a daily basis

and would absolutely never criticise or terminate an employee because of their weight.

I'm hurt, but I will not let the good work I've done in this world be overshadowed by this.

I want to thank everyone who's reached out in support to lift me up during this difficult time.

Just like the Ellen story,

my first thought with this went to,

hold on, like we're holding a female performer to these standards.

What about men who perform in the same arena?

What about Kanye, who literally says,

Nazi's great.

Back to the point I was making,

it's the allegation of hypocrisy that matters.

If you are out and out an asshole,

then no one expects you to be anything else.

But if you've built your brand of being something different to that,

then you've got a bigger target on you.

But I think you can be two things at once.

You can be incredibly important for representation,

and you can also have a temper.

Be imperfect.

Exactly, I agree.

So 50 Cent was a drug dealer.

Snoop Dogg has been arrested multiple times,

usually for possession of illegal substances or firearms.

Vanilla Ice has pled guilty to assaulting his wife.

Snoop Dogg was also accused of a gang-related murder charge.

So I just think it's interesting that this is getting so much publicity,

and we just do not hold men to the same standard.

The FIFA Football World Cup

is not the only women's World Cup happening at the moment.

In South Africa,

the Aussie diamonds are fighting to claim their 12th Netball World Cup.

Claire, I'm so glad you're bringing this up

because the out-louders have been a little bit cranky

in their Facebook group in particular.

Not cranky, but just like,

because I've been saying the Matilda's.

I love the Matilda's.

We're all excited about it.

And they're like, excuse me.

So Claire Stevens is here to correct the record.

Hashtag equality for World Cups.

Like, I think it's so fair enough.

Last night...

Awesome, lost four.

Yeah.

Last night, after a huge match between England and Australia,

they lost for the first time in the entire tournament,

and it was by one point.

10 seconds on the clock.

It's England by a goal.

Never have they beaten Australia at a Netball World Cup

in 13 attempts,

and they are just as good as they are.

They're just as good as they are.

They're just as good as they are.

They've won the World Cup in 13 attempts,

and they are just about to possession

or be the game.

The England Roses fight their way back,

and they victory over Australia.

If Australia ends up making the finals,

that will be eight World Cup games played across 10 days.

They're World Cup-ing arguably harder than the Matilda's.

If you can rank World Cup-ing.

As a lazy girl,

there's not much athleticism in too short a time period

for me personally, but...

It's also too much World Cup-ing, isn't it?

Yeah, a lot of World Cup-ing.

But all this Netball fever has reminded me

of my one and only party trick.

And that's that I can always tell

what Netball position someone plays,

simply from their vibe.

So I want to discuss

who in the current pop culture zeitgeist

would play what position

if they were in the Netball World Cup.

Okay.

Let's ask you a couple of questions about your process,

because I've seen this happen before.

Maybe some out louders listening

who came to see our live show last year,

and we talked about it there.

How long do you have to spend with someone

or in someone's orbit to be able to pick it?

Okay, so I can pick it very quickly,

but the hard thing is

when somebody has changed a lot

from when they were a child.

So sometimes people will say,

oh, well, I played Netball as a child,

but I was a fundamentally different person.

I'm like, I can't know that.

I can't know that.

I'm telling you what position you would play now.

I'm going to throw you on.

Miranda from Sex in the City.

Okay.

That's interesting because Miranda,

I would say favours basketball,

but she would be a goal defense if she played.

Why?

Because she's a little bit aggressive,

a little bit angry.

She got the height, which is good.

What about Charlotte?

Charlotte should be a wing attack.

What does a wing attack do?

They're often well groomed.

They're solid, reliable, well behaved,

and they're just always there to get the centre pass

from the centre,

and they're not sweating too hard.

No.

And that's important.

We have to round that out with my friend Carrie.

You've been dissing Carrie a lot.

I don't believe Carrie would have played at all,

but for assuming that she did,

what position?

So Carrie wouldn't,

because she wouldn't like to get sweaty,

but if Carrie played,

she'd be goal attack because she is an attention seeker,

and she's similar to our good friend Mia Friedman.

She shan't be playing unless she's a star.

Do you know what I mean?

That is actually the position I played

in about the five games of netball

I played in primary school.

I genuinely saw no point in any other positions.

Yeah, you're like,

I'm not getting out of bed for anything less

than the star position.

Why would I do that?

So me and Carrie are similar.

Barbie again is actually a goal attack.

Margot Robbie,

I would put money on the fact

that her as a human played goal attack,

but also Barbie is a character.

100% never had any doubt goal attack.

What about Meghan Markle?

Now, Meghan Markle is interesting.

There's a few different sides to her.

And here's the thing.

What team is she playing in?

Because I have actually done a video before

where I did a royal family netball team.

And what you've got to consider there is dynamics.

So like Kate Middleton is a wing attack.

And well, Harry was center,

but I don't know if they'd passed to each other now.

Because he's got center vibes.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And often when you've got boys playing,

you're quick, you're speedy.

You're just very kind of energetic and eccentric.

And that's Harry.

What's William?

Oh, William's a goal defense or a goalkeeper.

I'd say probably goal defense.

Why?

Because Camilla's goalkeeper.

Why?

Because she can't move as well.

So the goalkeeper doesn't get around the court much.

No, no, no, no.

Because William, on account of his age,

is just a little bit more kind of sprightly.

But I think Meghan as well would be a goal attack.

I think she's...

What about the queen?

Would she be center?

No, the sad thing about the queen is she'd be wing defense

because you can play without a wing defense.

Oh.

I know.

I want to know a couple of people we talked about

on Out Loud this week, Claire.

It was the Logies, right, for a start.

So who was big at the Logies this year?

Tony Armstrong.

Tony Armstrong would be a goal defense.

He'd be a great goal defense.

Why?

Like, he used to be like a professional AFL player.

Like, he's an athletic and you'll often put

your very athletic person as goal defense

because they're up against the star goal attack.

Oh, me?

And exactly.

And the person who's trying to get all the attention.

So a great goal defense blocks you

and really pisses you off.

So Tony Armstrong is strong.

He can get in your face.

Like, he isn't afraid.

He would be great athlete goal defense.

Carl Stephanovic.

Oh.

But of many jokes at the Logies.

Darling Carl would 100% be a wing defense.

You'd be putting him in the position where you're like,

you don't have to do much.

Do you know what I mean?

Like, I think he'd be great for the vibe.

I think he'd bring oranges.

I think he'd turn up on time.

But I don't think he'd contribute a lot to the game.

Skill-wise.

What about my sensitive friend, Harry Styles?

I think he's a goal attack as well.

I think that there is an overlap between celebrity

and goal attack because cool people become celebrities

and cool people play goal attack.

Well, people who like a lot of attention.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

I just wanted to quickly clarify for me center

because I always thought the center was the captain.

So I always thought that the best player

and the most main character energy would be center.

The thing I'd say about centers is bossy.

Weirdly, Tommy Little strikes me as a center.

He's kind of speedy and he wouldn't mind being like,

oi, get in your spot.

In the royal family netball team,

I had Harry because I think he'd be fine

telling everybody what to do.

What about Hamish and Andy?

Would either of them be centers?

Potentially Hamish.

Potentially Hamish.

I do think he's got the personality where

sometimes the center, they get annoyed at you.

As a bad netball player, the center's like,

hurry up, why are you so terrible?

So Lee Sales would be a center?

Yes.

Yes, Lee Sales slash scary journalist would be a center.

Oh, she's very scary, Lee.

Yes, she can be scary.

And bossy too.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Can be scary.

I need to ask about myself.

I did not play netball.

This whole thing makes little sense to me, but I love it.

I just love that you can do this.

And also, I just want out louders to know

that Claire does this in real life in the Mamma Mia office,

and she is almost always right.

When people start at work,

she doesn't go around harassing them.

That makes it sound.

If they ask, I don't.

You, wing attack over there.

She doesn't do that.

Part of orientation.

But she is actually very good at this in real life.

What am I?

Because you're not a netball person.

And because you're very happy to just be there,

you're a wing defense.

You and the dead queen.

Yeah, happy to be there.

Sounds devastating.

Maybe you're a wing defense with a wing attack rising.

But you know who else is a wing defense?

Is Alan from the Barbie movie.

He'd be a wing defense.

Yeah.

I am not in any glamorous company here.

Yeah, sorry.

Interesting because Ken as Ken the doll

seems more main character energy,

but like Ryan Gosling as Ken is a bit more self-deprecating.

So I would think either a wing defense

potentially only on his physicality, a goal defense.

But I think he may be too passive.

Just last one.

Are you and Jesse the same?

Oh God, no.

You both.

No.

So Jesse has the tension of wanting main character energy

but being heavy on her feet.

So she would have loved to be a goal attack,

but them ankles.

You two play netball a lot.

Well, yeah.

She's good.

I'm not.

Like now as adults.

But Jesse would have loved to be goal attack,

but she didn't have the knees or the ankles.

So she's a goal shooter.

Okay.

Her accuracy is astounding.

What about you?

You'd be a little fast thing, would you?

No.

You'd be very, very slow.

So when I was little, I played wing attack.

And then in my later years, I have been shoved to wing defense

because we're just, we're happy to be there.

Very dispensable.

But we're not.

The athleticism is gone.

In sympathy for wing defenses everywhere,

I should start a support group.

I'm feeling maligned.

No.

Because really good wing defenses feel very authentic.

Because a really good wing defense is a game changer.

And especially when you go watch professional netball,

the wing defenses are outstanding.

They're intercepting everything.

They're so quick.

But I mean, just the sad reality is when you're nine years old

and Sarah doesn't turn up to netball,

you go without a wing defense.

So you do put your weakest players in that position as kids, as kids.

Quick!

Quickie!

Quick!

It's on, it's on!

Mum and Mia Out Loud!

It's time for best and worst, my friends.

I'm going first today.

I'm going first with my best and worst.

My worst was going to be something very serious.

It was going to be climate anxiety.

Because I know there are a lot of people listening to this who are like,

the headlines are freaking me out.

It's been a dry, dry winter in lots of places.

And everybody's saying the summer's going to be a lot.

And I know a lot of people who are beginning to freak out.

But it's so bad that I can't make it my worst.

It's too depressing.

So instead I'm picking something silly.

Thank you.

That we can just bond over.

Yeah.

Social media lately, there's been a trend in Australia

for posting videos on TikTok and stuff about how impossible it is

to get a coffee after 3pm in a capital city or a regional town in Australia.

And I've never wished I'd started a trend more because my entire adult life,

I'm a 3pm coffee person.

Some people are telling me I have to pull back on that now I'm old,

that that might be part of my peri sleep problems.

But I'm holding on to it like a rock star is holding on to the fact

they can still drink till 3 in the morning.

I'm like, no.

If you try and walk out of the office at Mamma Mia

or anywhere I've ever worked at 305pm to get a coffee,

you will not be able to do it.

And we're in the CBD.

Yeah.

And sometimes 255, we're cleaning coffee machines.

Yep.

And then I'm very upset by that.

I live in a regional town.

I mean, I'm dreaming.

I'm dreaming to imagine that I could get coffee at 305 here.

Why is this?

Because I'm not a coffee drinker.

I'm not aware of this crisis.

Our cafe culture is very 7am till 3pm.

What it feels like to me is scoldy.

It feels scoldy.

Yeah.

The reason it's my worst this week is because I was in the Mamma Mia

office on Monday and I was in a meeting.

This is why I'm here.

If you're ever in a meeting with me and it's heading towards 3,

I start getting very twitchy because I'm missing my coffee window.

Oh, I know.

And it's 305.

It feels very scoldy this rule because it feels like the world

is saying to you, you know, it's too late to drink coffee.

You know, you shouldn't be having that coffee now.

Stop controlling me, world.

What if I'm Italian and I drink espresso after dinner?

The biggest hypocrisy is exactly that, that then you go to a restaurant

and they say, would you like to your coffee?

And I'm like, I would have liked to coffee six hours ago

and you wouldn't give me one.

What about the poor cafe workers who want to go home because they've

been up since five and don't get that?

I totally get that.

Do an extra shift.

And what I will also say is I am never this person,

but I've also been in meetings.

It has gotten to 250 and I've gone, I don't have an assistant.

I'm not senior enough to have anybody who works for me.

I've been tempted to send a message to someone and say,

if you get me a coffee, I'll pay you 10 bucks.

I think I've asked Luca to get me a coffee before.

I do do that sometimes.

And I'm just like, I'm so sorry to ask.

I'm so sorry to ask.

I'm so sorry to ask.

It's very busy and important, but I really need a coffee.

That's my worst.

My best.

We've all got Matilda fever.

Not my daughter Matilda.

Matilda the footballers.

But on Monday night, they have this amazing win.

Anyone who's watching the World Cup knows that it was do or die.

It was incredible.

I was so proud of them all, but I am now obsessed.

My daughter and I are now obsessed with a particular Matilda

called Haley Rassow, right?

If you only have a passing notion of who the Matildas are

and which one she's the one who wears the ribbon in her ponytail

and she gets shit for wearing the ribbon in a ponytail.

People are like, how do you expect me to take you seriously

when you wear a ribbon in your ponytail?

And she's like, because I score loads of goals,

I'm the fastest person you've ever seen.

And I love her so much.

She scored two goals on Monday night.

She's from Queensland.

Until recently, she was playing in my hometown of Manchester.

Now she's going off to be really fancy at Real Madrid or somewhere.

But one of the reasons this is my best,

her and her mum told this story on the TV on Monday,

and I literally cried.

Obviously because Haley's only young, most of the Matildas are.

She lives on the other side of the world to her family,

something I can relate to.

Her and her mum have matching full moon tattoos.

Whenever, wherever they are in the world,

they see a full moon, they take a picture of it

and send it to the other one.

And it's like their little bond.

And that just made me want to get a tattoo, Mia, for a start,

because I very much relate to this.

And I think because of the way my life's panned out,

I just assume that when my kids are older,

they will live far away.

Like it never occurs to me that I would live in a world

where they'd live around the corner.

And I was like, Matilda, when you're 18,

you're going to get a full moon tattoo.

Are we going to do that?

And we're going to bond over it.

Just like Haley and her mum.

And then on Monday night, it was a full moon

and Haley scored all the goals.

And the mum was like, this is why.

And I just, that kind of story just crushes me.

And that's my best of the week.

That's beautiful.

Oh, she was incredible on Monday night.

My worst of the week was starting a fire in Jesse's house.

Like an actual fire in her actual house.

I was over there on Sunday morning.

I was trying to be helpful.

That's all I do is try to be helpful

so I can keep coming back.

So I was sterilizing some bottles

and I thought I'll be helpful.

I'll sterilize some bottles.

And I got the big saucepan out of a drawer,

put them all in there or whatever.

And then as my younger son was leaving,

he said, fire.

And what I'd done is I'd left a tea towel too close to the stove.

And it wasn't actual fire.

It wasn't just like smoking,

but it had actually caught fire.

And I was holding Luna at the time.

Jesse was asleep.

So I did nothing.

Jay started laughing.

And I just said, Remy, put it out.

Come on.

And Luca just looked at me appalled.

And so then the whole house was filled with smoke.

And I'd been mocking Claire because a couple of weeks earlier,

she'd gone over there,

tried to make Jesse a piece of toast,

burnt the toast and set off the smoke alarm.

And I was like, at least I'm not that much of an idiot.

And then I started an actual whole fire.

So that was my worst.

My best is also sport related.

Would you even believe it?

Glennon Doyle is married to Abby Wombuck,

who is a former US soccer player for the US team, Olympic champion.

So she's been forced and also her kids play soccer.

She's been forced to become like a soccer wife.

And she does these brilliant videos where she explains the rules

to those of us who might not understand them.

That's super helpful.

Have a listen.

So good.

Today we're going to talk about when the judge with the long black socks

stops the game.

What has happened is something has gone wrong.

It's hard to tell.

It looks all the same,

but it means something terrible has happened.

And when something terrible happens,

there's a thing called kicks.

There's a lot of different kinds of kicks.

One is called an indirect kick.

Okay.

And an indirect kick.

It's just a kick that maybe,

I don't know, maybe it grew up in an environment

where its feelings were not honored.

And so this sort of kick has learned to communicate

maybe with a little bit of passive aggressiveness.

And that's understandable.

I want to understand the offside rule because I still don't understand it.

My worst for this week is that two of my very good friends

are getting married in Canada, almost as we speak.

Do they live there?

Yes, they live there now, but we're in Australia.

And my partner is over there.

A bunch of my friends are over there.

They were in New York earlier in the week.

Why didn't you go?

Because I knew that I was physically uncomfortable.

How many weeks are you now?

I'm almost 20.

And I knew that the flight, long haul flight, would be too much.

I knew I'd be exhausted the whole time.

I just, I haven't been my best self.

And I thought, I'm not going to do well if I do this.

How long have you intended to go and then you pulled out?

Very early.

Like I'd always thought I'd go.

And the FOMO of seeing everyone in New York,

everyone having these lunches, everybody just having the best time.

And I'm here in my apartment by myself.

But it's a reminder that I think you guys have talked about it.

Just accepting the season that you're at in your life.

And I'm like, it's okay.

This is not going to be forever.

The fact is I'm not in the season of bottomless brunches in New York.

Yes.

I'm in growing a human season and that's okay.

But it is still very sad.

My best, and this is such a shameless plug, you guys.

And it's like a very self-interested.

But because Jessie and I recorded all the canceled episodes for her maternity leave early,

we recorded them a few months ago.

They're all ones that stand the test of time, such as the notebook.

But we recorded them really early.

And so now every week when one comes out, I'm surprised and excited.

And I forget how we recorded it.

And I listen and I have the most fun listening back.

Because sometimes it's really hard to listen back.

Like I struggle sometimes without loud listening back because you go,

I hate my voice.

You want to reach through.

I should have said this and I should have said that.

Exactly.

But something about having the time past and it also being a time where she's referencing

how pregnant she is and how over it she is.

And it's been so fun.

And then I went back and listened to the one we did, cancelling pregnancy.

Because I was in the very early stages of pregnancy then.

And she was at the very end and I was trying to not let it on.

And I've had a few people message me and say,

I could tell you pregnant.

There were just a few pauses there.

I could tell.

But going back and listening to it has been so, so, so fun.

We did do one the other week on the notebook.

If you're in Ryan Gosling mode.

Oh yeah.

Go have a listen.

It brings brightness to my week.

I think Jesse's really funny.

It's very funny listening to you two just crack each other up.

You've got a recommendation.

Is it your own podcast?

No.

See, I've already plugged myself so I thought I'd better plug someone else.

So my psychologist recommended to me to read The Gifts of Imperfection

by Brene Brown.

Have either of you read it?

No.

No.

I think I might have read something on shame.

Do you know what?

It's one of those books I would have bought and then not read.

Yes.

Yes.

Well, me too.

I often buy self-help stuff and then I don't read it.

But psychologists told me to.

I listened.

Very important.

Scared of authority.

Anyway, she's trying to cure my crippling perfectionism,

which is not a humble brag.

Perfectionism is ugly and it is a barrier to get anything done and it's awful.

I would recommend reading it rather than listening to the audio book

because she's very American to listen to and sometimes that grates me.

However, the message of this book and there are certain lines that just feel so freeing.

It's all about being worthy now and not worthy when.

So not worthy when you've achieved something or have transformed into a slightly better

version of yourself, but how being worthy now is the recipe to getting anything done

and anything of quality.

And she talks about how you're meant to get up in the morning and think,

no matter what gets done and how much is left undone, I am enough.

And I have never thought that not a one day of my life.

It's also about.

I know.

Brown thinks that.

I know.

It's also about boundaries, self-compassion, compassion for others, failure, dealing with shame,

all of that.

Is it new?

No, no, no.

It's a few years old.

I'm going to go and look it up.

Because the last one you suggested I read, which was about procrastination,

which possibly this is what you're doing by reading this book.

Oh, absolutely.

The War of Art.

That was great.

I loved that.

Oh yeah.

Okay, cool.

I'm picking up on your recommendations.

I'm glad.

But it's about the difference between healthy striving and perfectionism.

And I love hearing it from Bray Brown because I'm like, she is a productive person who gets

very high quality things done.

So if you have that issue in your life, go give it a read.

If you're looking for one more thing to listen to, please listen to yesterday's and just like

that recap.

So many people have messaged me overnight about this episode.

Not the episode of the recap, about this episode of the show.

It is so good.

And Claire Stevens recaps it in hilarious mode.

Remember, of course, it's the one where Carrie and Aiden can't get out of bed.

No more spoilers.

Anyway, I think she'll have a UTI at the end of this episode.

Why doesn't she have a UTI?

That'd be a relatable plot.

There is a link in our show notes to go and listen to our recap of and just like that.

Thank you for listening to Australia's number one news and pop culture show.

This episode was produced by Susanna Makin.

The executive producer is Tulissa Bazaas with audio production by Leah Porges.

And we'll see you next week.

Bye.

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If you love the show and want to support us,

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There's a link in the episode description.

Machine-generated transcript that may contain inaccuracies.