Mamamia Out Loud: We Just Went Full Vag

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Mamma Mia Out Loud!

Hello and welcome to Mamma Mia Out Loud.

It's what women are talking about on Friday, the 17th of March.

I'm Holly Wainwright.

I'm Mia Friedman.

And I'm Jesse Stevens.

And on the show today, sex negativity is the new sex positivity.

Why is celibacy so hot right now?

Plus, a listener wants some help with how to deal with an over-enthusiastic colleague

on social media.

And our best and worst of the week, which include COVID, vaginas, and gratitude for

the faintest of wrinkles.

But first, in case you missed it...

Women are talking about vaginal orgasms on podcasts.

And not this one.

And not us.

Rachel Bilson is someone whose name you might recognise.

She's a 41-year-old actor.

She was very famous when she was on the OC.

And she was also in a show called Heart of Dixie, which I've never heard of.

I've watched every episode.

What's Heart of Dixie?

Please do not diminish Heart of Dixie.

It is a stunning, like, Outback America, rom-com vibe.

Highly recommend.

Loved it.

Sounds quite horrendous.

In the latest episode of her broad ideas podcast, she was having a conversation with her guest

called Whitney Cummins about orgasms.

And Whitney Cummins mentioned that she hadn't had an orgasm from penetrative sex.

I always stumble on that word, until she was quite late in life.

And here's what Rachel Bilson chimed in to say.

It didn't happen for me until I was about 38, however old I was.

That's wild.

Isn't that crazy?

I could just do it with my hands.

Of course.

Like, whatever.

Yeah, yourself.

But not with...

But not from, like, dick inside.

I do hear a lot of women say they don't have it until after they have a kit.

So who is the lucky man and how did this happen?

Jessie, you know a bit about her romantic life.

I am here to give you that information because it was not Adam Brody, who she dated for three

years.

It was not Hayden Christensen with whom she had a child.

So they had sex for seven years.

No vaginal orgasm.

But along came US comedian Bill Hader, unsuspecting, I didn't say it coming.

But apparently he's got a magical willy.

And at 38 years old, Rachel Bilson finally got her penetrative orgasm.

I thought that they were a bit of a myth, but here we go, Rachel's having it happen.

What do we think it is?

Does something change about the woman's body or is it a specific penis?

You guys have some wisdom.

We do.

I think it can be a later in life thing.

I think that for a long time, and this was a really bad thing for women, there was seen

as being two different types of female orgasm, a vaginal and a clitoral.

And the idea is that the clitoral was like substandard and that the vaginal one was the

gold standard of female orgasms and that if you didn't have one, it was yet another

thing for women to feel inadequate about.

But in actual fact, I was talking to our colleague Lee Campbell the other day who had been doing

a bit of reading about the female orgasm.

And she said, as you said, Jesse, that the idea that there's two different types is a

bit of a myth and that they're all related to the clitoris.

I mean, I'm just happy for women to get orgasms in whatever way.

Someone at work has a mold of a clitoris on their desk.

I don't know why I haven't asked them, but what I've learned from this mold is that the

clitoris goes all the way around the vaginal hole, the opening.

And so it's got tentacles.

It's got little tentacles.

It has tentacles.

And so because of that, you can stimulate it in lots of different ways and feel it in

lots of different ways.

And Rachel has just, I mean, I'm glad for her sexual awakening, but I hope that Adam

and Hayden aren't beating themselves up.

Now that celibacy is on the rise, here's a few tips that got me through a year and a

half.

Through this whole celibacy, I just been getting my bag, getting my money up, doing better

for my life.

And I feel great.

I think we have a theme for today's episode because ladies, I need you to keep it in your

pants for goodness sake.

Surely you, Holly, keep it in your pants.

Because celibacy is in.

An article published on Vice by Abby Moss asks the question, why is celibacy so hot right

now?

Abstinence, she says, has been fused with new age spirituality and sex negativity is thriving

online, particularly among the young people.

What's sex negativity?

It's basically the opposite to sex positivity.

So the idea that you embrace it, new experiment, you have fun, you have sex with lots of different

people, the Gen Zs are saying, no, I don't like it.

It's having a negative view on sex.

So you think that sex is always going to be a negative experience, that it's going to

leave you feeling empty, it's going to leave you feeling not connected, rather than pursuing

and being open to sex, you're more like, hmm, so it's not like just me wishing that celebrities

would keep their pants on on red carpets.

No.

Although maybe this could be part of your rebrand, yeah.

You're a sex negative commentator.

Yeah.

So basically I went deep on this celibacy trend on TikTok and I found a lot of health

gurus, men and women, sprucing celibacy as a health and mindfulness practice.

So people say that it helps them think more clearly, that it simplifies their dating lives,

it improves their energy levels, and it leads to better creative ideas.

But I also found that for a lot of people, particularly women who seemed unsatisfied with

modern dating and found that casual sex made them feel worse about themselves and not better,

they found this celibacy thing quite empowering.

But that word for a second, there's a lot of tension about that word because celibacy

literally means the state of abstaining from marriage and sexual relations and celibacy

isn't really meant to be a temporary thing.

You take a vow of celibacy, which is a commitment long term.

Some of these people have been practicing this for three months.

And what that actually is abstinence, that's a different thing.

Wait, I'm confused.

So does celibacy just mean that you haven't been laid in a while, but you want to own

it so you say, I am proactively celibate?

In my celibacy era.

Well, that's how people are using it, which isn't totally correct.

But when someone says I'm celibate, what they're really referring to is a conscious

choice.

It's not like the incel kind of dirty, misogynistic world where we see involuntary celibacy where

people feel hard done by.

These are people saying, I have made an active decision, a lot of celebrities have gone on

the record and said this, to basically abstain from sex for health and wellbeing purposes.

I remember when Dolly Alderson did that, she was a famous sex and dating columnist and

she did it, I can't remember the circumstances or why she did it.

She said, I want to abstain from sex in order to find my person.

And so for a year, she didn't want to have sex with anyone because she found it was muddying

her choices and her decision making.

Holly, why are you, oh my Godding.

I have no time for any of this.

Life needs to be largely a pursuit of pleasure or you're just fucking miserable at home in

your room on your own, on your phone, endlessly.

I worry that because of the proliferation of violent porn, because of the soullessness

of digital dating, because of the fact that we're all struggling so much with connection,

there are a lot of people who see sex in relationships very much veiled in a negative light, because

of a lot of toxic masculine bullshit that women have put up with for a very long time,

that they see all kinds of sex that involves particularly straight sex, I'm going to say,

because I think another thing we have to examine here is the definition of sex as changing

all the time, right?

It's changing all the time, but particularly straight sex is couched in very negative terms.

And if I was a young woman who was very immersed in online world, I would have very good reason

for thinking that sex was a really like negative, scary, dangerous thing.

And I worry that we have lost the idea that pleasure is just part of life's wonderful

tapestry, you know, for a less clichéd phase.

I don't think that hookup culture and a culture of casual sex is giving some women and some

men pleasure.

And I think that's what this is all about.

That's what I mean.

I think that that's definitely part of it, but I think that it's really sad if our reaction

to that is to blanket everything sexual in terms of it being power play, in terms of

it being negative for ourselves.

In my view, it kind of pushes women back to a time when you should save yourself.

You can't differentiate between the feelings of love and lust because you can't be trusted

to so save yourself for somebody, all those things.

And that works really well for some people, but also, I don't know, it just feels so heavy

and dark.

But, oh, you're framing it very much as women are doing this in a way that is either punitive

to themselves or manipulative in terms of not wanting to give it away or about self-preservation.

No, definitely not that.

I am definitely not framing it in terms of manipulative and not wanting to give it away.

I do not even, that's not even language I understand to be honest.

I withdraw, Your Honor.

I withdraw those comments from the record.

I'm not talking about it in terms of something women are denying themselves.

That's probably a better way to put it.

I went through a phase where I did not trust myself to have sex when I was single because

I wasn't able to disentangle my emotions from physical pleasure.

And I would confuse the physical pleasure with being in love and the fact that maybe

I should have a relationship with this idiot.

And so I did it in a way that was empowering to me.

That's fabulous.

But what I worry about this, and Jesse, I'm sure you can fill me in about this, is I read

all these stats all the time about how Gen Z are having less sex.

And one of the things I always think when I see that is, what's our definition of sex?

Because I'm sure that Gen Z are still humans with all the urges that we all have and that

they haven't suddenly mutated into sexless beings, but that the kind of sex they're having

might be digital.

I think it might be more sexual experiences online, not literally digital, although also

that.

And sex that is not what we would call straight PMV sex, like what's our definition of celibacy?

What's our definition of sex?

Because I don't believe that humans have evolved past it.

I do not believe that.

No, no, no.

Me neither.

But look, when they're talking about abstinence broadly, they are talking about not only not

engaging with sex with other people, but no masturbation.

Oh my God.

Well, that seems a bit sad and unfair.

Have some fun, people.

Have some fun.

But this is a generation with pornography at their fingertips who have probably masturbated

harder and more frequently than anyone in the history of time, right?

And so is this the reaction to unbridled sex positivity, which I don't think serves people

either?

The idea that we are constantly having sex.

We live in a culture of excess, which is excess of money and things and consumption.

And we're just taking things all the time.

Can you hear yourself comparing sexual pleasure to overconsumption?

That tells me so much about so many things, because that is not the way it should be.

It's not greedy to want to have an orgasm.

It's not damaging anybody to want your body to please you.

But pleasure, we have to allow ourselves pleasure like a puritanical repressive society only

leads to negative things.

It always has done, because people will still have all these urges, and if you keep telling

them that they can't do the things, bad things will happen.

I don't know if I believe that, and maybe this is my Catholic roots showing, but every

religion since the beginning of time has some sort of practice of abstinence, right?

Like even Ramadan, which is about basically choosing to eat at certain times of the day

and fasting.

And fasting, exactly right.

Sex is included in that.

And it's the idea that life isn't about the unbridled pursuit of pleasure.

But there's a difference between unbridled.

Unbridled is a word I don't like there, because life should absolutely be in part about the

pursuit of pleasure.

Absolutely should.

In part, not only.

My theory is that if we looked at the people who are doing this, and I've had mates who

have gone, I'm doing this some celibacy thing, right?

And they've gone, I'm not going to masturbate, remember the no-fap movement?

And it basically meant that they weren't going to masturbate for a month, right?

Those men previously weren't masturbating at healthy levels.

I'm not a sexologist.

I can't say what a healthy level is, but it was interrupting and wreaking havoc on their

day-to-day lives.

And they obviously felt that they needed a break from that.

They didn't have any time to go to work.

You know, they had RSI needed to go to the physio a lot.

It's true.

I think that what is interesting about this is that everything goes in cycles.

And this is so predictable, because we have lived through this era of sex positivity and

you've got influencers all over Instagram with their vibrators and you've got, you know,

the Mardi Gras.

I was watching the Gay and Lesbian Mardi Gras a couple of weeks ago, and it's so mainstream

now.

Like, it's so mainstream, whether it's the Leather Bears or, you know, people in all

kinds of kinks, all of that kind of stuff is very, very mainstream.

And you've got people naked on red carpets.

You've got celebrities who are naked on their album covers, part of the reaction to something

that feels so mainstream is to go the other way.

It's just pendulums.

Isn't it?

It's counter-cultural.

I completely agree.

Yeah, counter-cultural.

But it always ends up in the same place, which is denying who you are and what you want.

And it's not good for any of us.

You've got to allow yourself a bit of fun.

So you're never going to have sex again?

Well, Jerry, it was a pretty good chance I was never going to have sex again anyway.

Hi, my name's Amy, this is a question for Out Loud.

Look, I need some advice for my 16-year-old daughter.

We have a listener dilemma, and it's about co-workers and social media.

Our Out Louder writes, I have a problem and I need your help.

I like to keep it friendly and professional at work.

I'm close with some of my teammates, so I've added them on social media, but not everyone

in the business.

One overly friendly colleague has sent me a friend request that I've ignored for a while

now.

She brought it up in person recently, and I tried to change the subject.

I'm pretty protective of my boundaries, but I don't want to make things awkward because

I see her every day at work.

How do I tell her that I don't want her on my social media?

Oh, Jessie, you don't.

I just can't muster the energy to create the awkward scenario that I feel will inevitably

ensue.

I would weigh up the two things, which is how awkward it's going to be to have that

conversation and then not have each other on social media, versus the boundaries that

you're trying to establish and protect, and personally, I don't have strong enough boundaries

to overcome that awkward social interaction.

Maybe I just don't understand, and I would be very interested if either of you have more

insight into what privacy is being protected there.

Maybe my view of social media and my accounts is just very different to some other people's,

which is it's not something I've ever felt I necessarily have to protect.

Do you feel differently?

Yeah.

I think it's very different for us because we're in the public eye.

We make content for a living.

For a lot of people, their social media is private.

It's more like a really big group text.

I think Facebook might be a little bit different, but Instagram, more and more people are putting

their accounts to private because they want to share photos of their children or they

want to share photos of their family, and also because there's a basic human desire

to parcel out different parts of our lives to different people, and I think the workplace

is a really interesting one because what if you've got people who are in your team,

who you manage?

What if your manager wants to be your friend?

All of those kinds of things, and then it also comes a time, what if you leave that workplace?

Do you unfriend that person?

What if they leave the workplace?

Do you unfriend them because it's awkward for them knowing what you're doing at work

because maybe they're at a different workplace?

Oh, the friend has got a tin ear and is really not reading the signals.

Yeah, that's exactly right because I am certain this has happened to me, almost certain, because

when you think about it, I work with a lot of young people, and why would they want me

to see them out on a Saturday night?

Why would they want me to see that?

Why would I want to see that?

Because as you know, as we've just discussed, I'm very open-minded, I mean, you know me.

But what if what I saw on their social medias on a Saturday night changed my view of them?

I can totally understand that there's a side of you that you want to keep for your friends

and your people, that you don't necessarily want Betty at the photocopier to see.

Because people gossip at work, of course.

So for that reason, I don't follow lots of my workmates, I follow some.

But then sometimes I feel rude if I'm not following them because it's like that thing

now where you kind of see someone in the kitchen and you go, how was your holiday?

And it's kind of like they should know how your holiday was because you've been posting

it all over your Instagram.

So I do understand the boundary because I think that Mia said it's different if what

you're posting, you're doing very intentionally to present yourself in a certain way, which

professional people do who are using social media for professional reasons.

But if your social media is just literally your life, why would you want your boss or

your people you don't know very well to see that?

Why would you want that?

Okay.

In that case, I don't think you need to tell people that you don't want them on your social

media.

I have definitely requested follow.

So people have private Instagram accounts, right?

I might work with them or something and I'll request follow them.

And I'm sure there are 50 out there of people who have never approved me.

If they don't approve me, I'm not hurt.

I don't assume it's because they hate me.

I assume they don't use social media and that they haven't got around to approving me because

that's the first thing they would do, obviously.

So that's different, Jesse, because you're famous and you know other famous people and

you're talking about a high volume of DMs and requests and that's the world you live

in and the people in your world are similar, right?

But if you're Jane in accounts and you want to be friends with Brenda in marketing and

you've only got a few hundred followers, you will be looking every day to see if she's

accepted your friend request.

Would you?

Yeah.

Even on Facebook, if you sent out a friend request and it didn't come back and they didn't

approve it, I would just assume that they don't use social media that much.

The friend has brought it up in person.

So what do you do when someone says to you, hey, you haven't approved my friend request?

I would say, oh, I have an account, but I'm not on it.

That's a good lie.

Or I'd just say, oh yeah, I'll get around to it and then I never would.

I agree with you, Mia.

This friend should take the hint.

She should definitely take the hint because especially if you've brought it up once and

you still haven't approved her, she should get that.

Personally I don't think it's a personal slight that somebody doesn't want to share

all their private things with you.

If you are a good boundary person and it sounds like our listener is, you could actually just

say very politely, sorry, or not sorry if you don't want to say that, say that account

is really just for my close friends and family.

Except you've got 600 followers.

There's one other thing you can do, which is that you can mute, because of course as

soon as you connected, you could see all of their stuff, but you can mute their stories

and posts.

We'll talk about Instagram here.

I assume you can do the same on Facebook, but you can also set it up because I was in

this situation once where someone was following me and I didn't want to block them, but something

changed in our relationship, so I did a thing where all my posts are seen by everybody except

that person.

This was a long time ago, don't anyone get paranoid?

This was a long time ago, but you can weed them out so that they don't see everything

that you post, but if you accept them, then they can see everything that you've already

posted.

It just means that you can stop them saying new things, but what a pain in the half.

If you want to make out loud part of your routine five days a week, we release segments

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To get full access, follow the link in the show notes and a big thank you to all our

current subscribers.

Time for best and worst of the week, where we talk about our best and worst moments.

They can be big, they can be small, I got COVID, that's my worst, you won't be surprised

to hear it.

Look, I've written a piece for Mamma Mia about it, the five weirdest things about COVID

that nobody told me.

Like you would think after three years, you would have heard every story and you would

know everything, but there've been some things that have surprised me, including the day

for weepies.

The emotional toll is very big.

Also the part where you cough so much that you weep, and you need to order poise pads

to put in your undies because you just keep wetting your own pants.

This is a lot of dignity in COVID really.

How's recovery going?

It's been a week are you feeling how are your energy levels, because for me it just smashed

me for a long time.

Well, I mean that's the state where it's really hard to know because I'm not doing anything.

Everyone's put the fear of God in me in terms of don't push yourself too early, don't exercise

too early.

So I haven't exercised or anything in 10 days, which is a lot for me, but because I'm taking

it so easy, I'm actually not quite sure how I am until I start doing things.

So I think I might, you know, tentatively breach the perimeter of my house in the next

day or so and just monitor.

I'm so terrified of getting long COVID that I'm just taking it super easy.

But the best of my week has been my mother-in-law, who God love her.

My Jewish mother-in-law makes chicken soup, Jewish people call chicken soup Jewish penicillin.

That's what it is.

She drops them over like liquid gold into my veins and my immune system.

It's like better than any antiviral.

Of course, I'm joking.

It's not medicine.

I know that science is great.

Love science, big fan, but it's just fantastic.

So homemade Jewish chicken soup, highly recommend.

What are our chances of getting a recipe on that?

Yeah.

Yeah.

Okay.

I'm going to share proper Jewish mother-in-law chicken soup.

I will do that.

My worst actually thematically linked to your worst, Mia, where united in a new phenomenon

that I am experiencing and I texted you both about immediately, I was walking down the

street, walking home, doing my pregnant lady waddle, and I did a sneeze and a little bit

of weed came out.

And I went, I regret making fun of my friends, Mia and Holly for so many years and their

pelvic floors and the way in which they run to the toilet whenever we get off a plane.

And how often they speak about their bladders.

This serves me right.

Welcome friend.

Yes.

Well, I was like, well, now I can be the poise ambassador for three of us.

It's confronting, it's degrading, and it is only the beginning.

So that's been a lot walking in my front door and my ability to just like hold in my

way that I've taken for granted for my whole life.

It's the weirdest sensation.

It's like you can't, and you can't hold on anymore.

Do you have that thing where you see the toilet sometimes and your body goes, ah, and you're

like, no, no, not sitting down yet.

There needs to be special pregnant lady toilet set up on every corner of the street because

I'm like, I can't hold on.

This is just, it's an emergency.

And relatedly, my best is I went to a pelvic floor physio lady who I've affectionately

called a vag stretcher, and I'm really sorry to her for that.

The advice that came at my mirror office when you work in an all female environment where

a lot of people have had babies is they said you need to go to a pelvic floor physio and

they do these stretches inside your vagina to prepare you for childbirth, right?

And so I'm seeing this lady and it is, I mean, it's uncomfortable.

It is confronting, but it is meant to be one of the best things you can do to prepare yourself.

If you're planning on kind of doing a vaginal birth and who knows, it might be a C-section.

I'm just going with whatever I'm told, but it's what you can do to prepare and it helps

minimize the likelihood of tearing and all that kind of stuff, but they literally go

inside the vag.

They like massages.

Who are they?

Is it a team of people?

Just 100 people are just going in with their hands.

My physio, she literally makes sure that you do all the breathing and she says that a lot

of people get into labor and if you've never had a baby, you just don't know what it is

to relax your pelvic floor.

It's really tight.

Oh, I know.

So now it's just like breathing and making sure I can relax and blah, blah, blah.

I like being prepared.

I love studying, I love my preparation, and now my vag is getting a workout.

So vag stretching is my best.

I'm very pleased for you.

I'm trying really hard not to say one of those things I say about like, you can prepare.

Oh my God, Holly, let her stretch her vagina if she wants to.

I know.

I know.

Jesse, you go crazy stretching your vagina.

It's going to make all the difference.

That anyone has ever had in the history of women.

Holly just wants you to have more orgasms.

She's like, don't go to the vag stretcher.

Just get busy with your vibrator.

Pursue more pleasure, Jesse.

Pursue more pleasure, Jesse.

All right, my worst.

This is a callback to a very long time ago.

Mia Friedman, do you remember years and years ago, my daughter, my first born, she's my

only daughter, but she's my first one, was doing that plan and I went and got her a cake.

I remember that.

And I got her a cake because she was really nervous about that plan and I got her a cake

from a bakery in Surrey Hills near our old office and had iced on it, well done on trying

so hard in that plan or something like that.

And you told me it was the worst parenting move I'd ever made.

We scolded you.

I got scolded.

We were like, this is why children are soft.

You don't need a cake for doing a test.

It doesn't even count for anything really.

I had so much anxiety about that whole thing.

Anyway, this morning, Billy's getting ready for school and he goes, oh, mom, it's nap

plan today.

And I was like, what?

And I, second child, I didn't even know it was nap plan.

I hadn't even talked about it with him and arguably Billy would need more support than

Matilda in these kinds of situations.

But I-

Where's my cake, bitch?

Just dropped the ball.

Exactly.

He is going to come home tonight and he is going to be, I seem to remember.

Mom.

And I'll be like, nap plan?

What nap plan?

Who are you?

What are you doing in my house?

Mum is too busy pursuing pleasure.

She doesn't have time to get you a cake.

So that was my worst, realizing what a shit pair I am, but you know, I'm sure Billy will

be fine.

Anyway, best was the Oscars this week.

At the Oscars this week, it seemed like, and the last few years really, that Hollywood

has discovered midlife women, right?

I went deep on this, I proposed the story for sight, everyone said, no one cares, but

I was like, I know that the Oscars still has a way to go in parity in many things, right?

And Hollywood has a way to go in parity in many things, but age parity is making moves

in Hollywood.

I looked at this, right?

In the 1920s, so back when it began, the average age of a woman who would win Best Actress

was 29, while the man was 49, right, so 20 years apart, the age gap has slowly closed

over the years, until in the 90s, it was getting closer together.

And now women are actually a little bit older than the men.

The average age of a woman winning an Oscar now is 54, how good is that?

I can't believe that's changed so quickly.

It shows that it used to be that Oscars seem to be awarded to men for like experience and

you look at all you've contributed, and for women it was often like hot young thing, potential,

let's give her an Oscar, this will be good for her career.

Do you remember that Jennifer Lawrence won for Silver Linings Playbook and I was just

reading a profile about her, she was 22 when she won.

It doesn't necessarily mean everything, of course, because if you're 22 and you turn

in the performance of the year, you should win the Oscar, that's fine, right?

But that 20-year age gap that used to exist was stubborn.

It was also about the roles that you were given at certain ages.

You weren't given a leading role at 40, 50, 60.

That's 100% true, Jesse.

So what it actually shows you is that there used to be a trope that in Hollywood, if you

were over 35, then all the roles would drop and they were boring and that's what seems

to have shifted.

Because of course this year, Michelle Yeo won, she's 60, Jamie Lee Curtis won, she's

64.

And I know that this isn't the case for every movie, but it certainly seems to have shifted.

Everything seems to be biting at the heels about this, that women are getting more interesting

roles older.

And the thing that makes me laugh is that us midlife women are just so grateful for it.

We're like, if there's even the faintest of a wrinkle on someone's face, we're just falling

over ourselves to be like, oh my God, see, they can see us, they can see us, we exist.

It's just hilarious.

Anyway, so that was my best this week, is that women are prepared to overlook a lot if you'll

throw us a bone and pretend that we still matter, and that's what Hollywood is doing

at the moment.

Jessie, you have a recommendation before we go?

Yes, I do.

Look, I'm very into snacks at the moment, and I have two snack recommendations that

have been better than all my other snacks.

And you know, cost of living crisis, these are cheap, okay?

The first snack, it's only $4 and you get it from Coles, right?

They are Coles Ultimate, 40% triple chocolate chip cookies, right?

Some supermarket cookies, I'm just going to say it, aren't the best, they taste stale,

they don't have the flavor I need, they're not the right size, they're a bit too hard,

I don't know.

And no one wants to go and buy a thing of cookies, have the first one and go, well, they're

cheap, like, and now I don't want to eat the rest.

These are so good, Luca doesn't eat cookies really, so I've just been having a few on

my own every night for a little while.

I love cookies, they're my favorite food group, cookies.

These are my favorite food group, and what I love about these is that they're chocolate

cookies with extra chocolate bits with chocolate inside, like it's just chocolate on chocolate

on chocolate.

It's like the cheese stuffed crust pizza, it's like, how can you put more pizza in

the pizza?

Yes.

How can you put more chocolate in the cookie?

Yeah, let's not try and put fruit in the cookie, let's not try and do anything special,

let's just put chocolate in the cookie.

So that tick $4 from Coles, highly recommend.

The other, not sure if you guys have tried these, I don't think I've recommended these

before, but they're my favorite type of chip, I would say almost, may I say a gourmet chip.

Have you tried the Tirols Cheddar and Chives chips?

They're in a yellow packet?

Our producer is losing her mind over this recommendation.

I thought Tirols were the best chips.

I thought Tirols were the best chips.

Tirols are the best chips.

Tirols are the best chips.

They're the best chips.

You can get sea salt, you can get the yellow ones, you need to get the yellow packet.

It has cheddar and chives, it is perfect amount of salt, perfect amount of flavor, premium

chip.

I don't feel like cheese belongs in a chip, I just don't.

Oh, that's so embarrassing that you think that.

Like chips should be, they could be honey, soy, they can be chicken.

No, there's only one flavor of chip, we all know, salt and vinegar is the only flavor

of chip we're having.

No, no, no, no, no.

You can overdo salt and vinegar, your tongue gets sore.

You don't get sore with the cheddar and chives.

This isn't brought to you by anyone.

I just really am enjoying food groups such as salt, but also sugar.

I just had to barge in very quickly as if I was busting down the door of the room.

I know I'm banned from giving obvious recommendations, but for many out loud as this week, Ted Lasso

week.

Did you say Ted Lasso?

Yes.

Holly?

Ted Lasso.

That took me saying premiere.

It's Ted Lasso.

Ted Lasso, Ted Lasso, Ted Lasso.

Are you French, Ted Lasso or Italian?

It's like Ted Lasso.

Ted?

I don't even watch the goddamn show and I know how to say his name.

Ted is back.

It is Ted Lasso week and the out louders have been messaging me all week about it.

So obviously I have to mention that of course that's my recommendation.

I just can't give it because I'm banned.

What night is it on?

Drop some Wednesdays.

You know what you do with tough cookies, don't you?

Hitman milk.

If you want something else to listen to, we had a very interesting conversation on our

subset yesterday.

If you are a straight woman, if the man that you want to date and possibly settle down

with is a confident beta, it's the exact opposite of a toxic alpha, new kind of man we have

identified and we all share our reasons why he is the one you want.

He will let you live your life and that's what we want.

Go and listen to our experiences with alphas, faders, confident, toxic and otherwise.

Thank you for listening to Mamma Mia Out Loud today.

This episode was produced by Emma Gillespie with audio production by Leah Porges and assistant

production from Susanna Makin.

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Shout out to any Mamma Mia subscribers listening.

If you love the show and want to support us as well, subscribing to Mamma Mia is the

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There is a link in the episode description.

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