Mamamia Out Loud: We Demand You Dump Him Immediately

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Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters that this podcast is recorded on.

Hello and welcome to Mamma Mia Out Loud.

It's what women are talking about on, I don't know what the date is today.

Oh, it's right there right in front of my face.

Sorry everybody, I reckon there are two types of people.

There are people who always know the date and people who never know the date.

I don't even know the month.

No, I've been saying it's March.

I think we're all those kinds of people.

Welcome to Mamma Mia Out Loud.

It's what women are actually talking about on Wednesday, May the 31st.

I'm Holly Wainwright.

I'm Mia Friedman.

And I'm Jesse Stevens.

And on the show today, how responsible are you for your bad boyfriend?

Asking for my friend Taylor Swift.

Plus, am I the problem dilemma from our audience about milestone birthdays?

And the big he quit.

In a year of big quitters,

is this finally proof that the men don't want it all either?

But first, Mia.

In case you missed it, there's some breaking wee news,

which is better than breaking wind news, I guess.

I think it is.

It turns out 75% of Australian men are weeing wrong.

Weeing wrong.

How can you wee wrong?

Well, new data from YouGov was released this week

looking at the wee-wee habits of 7,000 men from around the world.

And this data is very exciting.

Because apparently...

You know what needs research?

Endometriosis.

I know.

And yet, here we are going, do you wee-wee standing or sitting?

I know.

And by exciting, I mean, really strange that anyone decided to do this research.

According to a urologist,

sitting down is the best position to wean for a man.

For hygiene and for bladder health.

Because sitting has a more favorable urodynamic profile.

Oh.

It's also hygienically, I would imagine.

You're not touching your willy.

And the fact that you touch your genitals every time you weigh as a man

is a problem that we don't talk about now.

So, the parts of the world where people sit down weeing like culturally,

they've got it right.

That's what we're saying.

Yeah.

So, the reason that it's healthier,

I mean, I agree with that in terms of more hygienic, obviously,

because it also means that you're not touching toilet seats.

Because in a household where there's men and women and men put the toilet seat up,

everyone is touching the toilet seat all the time.

Not that hygienic.

So, the reason it's better for you is because the muscles in the pelvis

and the spine are completely relaxed, allowing the bladder to empty faster

and more completely.

And this is particularly good for older men to sit down when they do wee-wee

because so many of them have prostate issues.

But if you're a woman who is sick of having to put the toilet seat down

when she goes or who has maybe fallen into the toilet in the middle of the night,

you ever done that?

Yeah, we all have.

You should move to Germany because a whopping 40% of German men are Sitzpinklers,

which is what they call...

Sitzpinklers.

Sitzpinklers.

I like that.

Which is the highest in the world.

In Singapore, just 5% of men sit down.

And in Australia, it's a whopping 25%,

which means that 75% are standing up, 25% are doing it right.

And of course, some people are cranky about this research and they say

it's propaganda to degrade masculinity.

Oh, of course it is.

We look at men and we go, no, you've had your opportunity to stand up and wee.

You've proven yourself incapable and now you must sit because it's too messy.

I know some women who live with quite a few men who have instituted

and must sit down to wee-wee.

And she will police it.

She will barge in on her boys and see if they're doing it and then be like, sit down.

And I was always like, oh, that seems like a lot.

Now I know, she's got the right idea.

An open letter to Taylor Swift, a viral hashtag that reads Speak Up Now.

And a 34-year-old man who is being ironic, but is he really?

In early May, rumours emerged that Taylor Swift was dating frontman of the 1975,

which is a band that I had not heard of until now.

They're a very good band.

Apparently they're good.

They're very cool.

Everyone I know who's cool knows them.

I was introduced to them by my daughter, who is also a Swiftie.

So when the world's collide.

Well, yes.

His name is Maddie Healy.

And the Swifties at first weren't convinced that this was going on,

but then he flew from the Philippines to Nashville to watch her play.

And that is a long way on a plane.

Interestingly, eight or so years ago, Healy said it would be emasculating to date Taylor Swift.

He said this is a quote.

It's just interesting to me how interested the world is about Taylor Swift.

The reason I mentioned that is because if I had properly gone out with her,

I would have been effing hell.

I am not being Taylor Swift's boyfriend.

You know.

F that.

That's also a man thing.

A demasculating, emasculating thing.

So just like toilets.

Because they were rumoured to date in 2014.

Yeah.

They were pictured together.

They've got producers in common and stuff.

Exactly.

Yeah.

Fast forward to this month and weird stuff starts happening.

They seem to be mouthing to each other at concerts.

They're photographed holding hands,

rumors of them kissing.

They both mouthed quite noticeably in their separate concerts.

This song is for you.

You know who you are.

I love you so much.

What?

Yeah.

Like you look at the footage and you're like, it's pretty black and white.

Really is it?

Yeah.

Open shut case.

So what's the problem?

Taylor Swift has a new boyfriend.

What's the fuss?

Well, a lot of Swifties think that Taylor's new boyfriend is problematic

and they demand she makes a statement to all of us.

And this is where things get a bit murky.

There's a rapper named I Spice.

I Spice is set to appear on a Taylor track.

She's not a Spice girl for Gen X.

No.

Out louders who are a little bit confused at the moment.

She's a rapper, very cool rapper, right?

And in a recent interview, Healy laughed at some racist jokes made about her.

They were pretty racist.

They were not cool jokes,

which a lot of people are saying isn't a good look for Taylor.

He was on a podcast, right?

He was on this podcast with a disgusting name.

They made a joke about her ethnicity,

which was wrong and her weight and that was awful.

He joked personally about watching pornography on a particular site

that features women of color being degraded and humiliated.

And he laughed that a friend walked in on him watching this porno

where a woman was being brutalized.

That is where the Swifties open letter comes in.

So they have said this is part of the open letter.

Healy has been involved in acts and controversies that deeply trouble us.

While individuals have the right to make their own choices and form relationships,

we believe that it is essential for those in the public eye to take a stand

against discrimination and hold themselves and their associates accountable.

As it stands, Taylor has neither confirmed nor denied that she is even dating Maddie Healy.

But Holly, does she owe us a statement

given that her love life is sort of part of the Taylor Swift brand story?

No, I don't believe that she does owe us a statement.

I think that Taylor has made a point now for quite a long time

about not talking about boyfriends as much as possible.

And he seems to me this guy like the absolute textbook rebound boyfriend

that you have when you've just broken up with someone after six years, right?

He is a rock star.

I read the profile about him in the New Yorker because I was like,

who is this guy?

Turns out he's from my hometown of Manchester.

Turns out his mom used to be on Coronation Street,

which is a soap that is massive in England.

I'm like, oh, now I understand who you are.

Reading that interview, you could have been reading an interview with Pete Doherty

in the Nordies, Mick Jagger in the 60s, Michael Hutchinson in the 80s.

He's like, it's waggery, likes drugs, you know, has addiction problems in his past.

Obviously says outrageous things in order to be a bit shocking,

but he's also quite woke.

When I was reading this, I was like, rock stars have changed

because when he got an award, he got up there and he read a snippet of an essay

about misogyny and music as part of his acceptance speech.

One of their albums opens with a Greta Thunberg monologue.

Like he's not exactly the devil.

He's not Oasis.

No, he's definitely not Oasis.

And I think that herein lies the problem, right?

Is that if you're out there singing about bitches and hoes and openly misogynistic lyrics,

then no one expects anything from you.

But if you're a kind of slightly intellectual, foppish rock star guy

in the tradition of these English rock gods, then people are expecting a lot of them.

However, I'm not giving him a free pass because he sounds like a dick.

I'm just putting it out there.

He sounds like a very sexy dick.

If your mate, and Taylor Swift is all of our mates,

but Jillian, Taylor Swift, most successful pop star in the world,

a lot of people think that she's their mate.

If your mate starts dating a dick and all you can think is like,

oh my God, he's such a dick.

And now I have to sit across from him and listen to him showing off his edgy views

and all those kind of things and being ironically offensive.

Then you would be like, mate, what are you doing with him?

So I get it.

Yeah.

Everyone's feeling protective because of that parasocial relationship.

So they're kind of looking at her going,

Taylor, we don't want to spend more time with Maddie Healy.

Yes.

Like you're not invited to dinner at Taylor's place,

but we all think we are.

Mia, what do you reckon?

I think people have lost their minds.

I think that the parasocial relationship,

which we talk about a lot on this show,

which is the idea that you know someone because of the access that you have to their lives.

With Taylor, it's a little bit different because it's not so much a parasocial relationship

because it's not like she shows people all around her house

and talks intimately about all aspects of her life

and shows people what she's having for breakfast.

It's not like an influencer in that sense.

It's more fandom, like typical fandom.

And if you look at the relationship between people who are hardcore fans of someone

like a Swifty, Harry Styles fans,

they have often a really complex relationship with the stars partner,

the rock stars partner.

Believe us.

They weren't.

So Swifty's really liked Joe Alwyn for Taylor

because he seemed like a nice guy, wholesome, clean cut.

Didn't know a lot about him, but you know, he was a clean skin, I guess.

Harry Styles fans, however, hated Olivia Wilde

and any woman that Harry Styles has ever been linked with,

including Taylor Swift, his fans have gone after in a very aggressive way.

Now, this idea that somehow liking Taylor means

that every choice Taylor makes also reflects on you.

That's the part where I think it's deluded.

So you've got TikToks being made of Swifty's at her concerts,

holding themselves accountable, saying,

I am at this concert.

I don't agree with Taylor's choices,

but I bought my tickets before like chastising themselves publicly

in their hair shirt because of someone that Taylor may or may not be dating

and something that he said on a podcast.

So firstly, why are we holding Taylor responsible?

Secondly, these are pop stars and rock stars that unwritten contract of fandom

does not include this.

OK, Devil's Advocate, though.

It is not like Taylor Swift keeps her love life private.

She might at the time,

but we all know that there will be an album.

This is part of what she does and she encourages her fandom to find Easter eggs

and to scrutinize what she does.

And then she writes about Jake Gyllenhaal

or she writes about the most recent one I think that's coming up is John Mayer.

So she's just done released a new song.

A new song, which they think is about Jo Alwyn.

Yeah.

So is this a case of you sit down with your friend at dinner

and she's got a bad boyfriend who you know is bad news and you go,

all right, I can foresee the future.

In two years, you're going to be sitting down writing an album going,

he was all full blah, blah, blah.

Why didn't anyone warn me or whatever?

But good, then the album will be great.

And she'll make music out of her life.

A lot of people have warned her.

Yes, yes.

I get what you mean.

Does she use her private life for her private gain?

I think that's such bullshit and so proprietary.

Like it actually gives me the creeps,

this idea that she is an artist.

So in the same way that a painter is inspired by their life to make art

and a musician to, you know, make music and an actor will use their life

experiences to inform a character that they might play.

It doesn't give us control.

We're not her parents.

No, I agree.

I agree.

But this is interesting, right?

Think about me, who until this week didn't know who Maddie Healy was.

Vaguely knew, have heard about 1975, heard a couple of songs.

Oh, that's good.

Didn't know.

She has platformed him.

That is the phrase that everybody's using, right?

In that she's been at his concert, like on stage with him

before the rumors about them dating or, you know, in the middle of them.

So she's kind of endorsed them and him with her world, right?

And if he is a problematic edge lord,

because that's another word I learned this week,

which is basically someone can be edgy,

but if you're an edge lord, it's kind of like this subset of blokey,

podcaster-y people who like being edgy is their point saying offensive things,

and then they say, I'm ironic and actually I'm making a statement

and you just don't get the joke.

Exactly.

But nothing funny happened.

So the question of has she shone her enormous light and influence on this guy,

whether they're actually fucking or not,

is not really the most relevant bit.

That is problematic because he is a problematic person.

She's also released a remix of her song, Karma, with Ice Spice.

And Ice Spice has been on stage with her.

She's just to make it even more confusing.

And she platforms a huge number.

All her opening acts are women, young women,

emerging artists on this incredible tour.

So I mean, I just find this bizarre.

I know I've got my Swifty goggles on,

but I would find this equally bizarre if it was Harry Styles,

but the fact that it's a woman and you've got young women

trying to control the choices of a woman

and somehow feeling like they can't listen to Taylor music anymore

means they're endorsing someone that she associates with.

And it's not just him that they've got problems with.

They've also got problems that she's friends with Lena Dunham,

who they say is problematic.

I mean...

You don't endorse everything a person ever says

just because you're their friend or you're having a sexy time with them.

Exactly right.

I would like us all to consider Healey's very appropriate quote,

which is,

We used to expect our artists to be cigarette smoking bohemian outsiders,

and now we expect them to be liberal academics.

It's so true.

It's so true.

Although he is a bit of a liberal academic.

Is it all a bit?

Is it sincere?

Will he ever address it?

All of these questions and more will be ignored in the next hour.

Ladies and gentlemen, this is...

Open me up loud!

It's me.

Am I the problem?

Is it me?

This is very exciting.

We've got a new segment,

and I believe we might be singing,

to introduce it.

Speaking of Taylor.

Speaking of Taylor,

because our new segment is called,

Am I the Problem?

And it's basically,

we're inviting out louders to give us dilemmas,

where they are saying,

Is this me?

Am I the problem here?

Or is this situation?

Bullshit.

Today,

our Am I the Problem Dilemma comes from out loud as Sophie.

Now she posted this in the Facebook group,

but she's given us permission to share it with our wider group.

So welcome friends, lean in.

We need to help Sophie out.

Sophie says,

It was my 40th birthday recently,

and I was having a party on the Saturday,

but her birthday was actually on the Wednesday.

The party,

she had organised it herself,

and paid for it with joint money from the family.

On her actual birthday,

number one,

my husband did not get up to give the kids breakfast,

leaving me to do it as normal.

Number two,

he did not come in to see me or wish me a happy birthday.

Number three,

he sent the kids in with a present,

which was a fancy Frank Green drink bottle,

only after I had picked out exactly which one I wanted,

and it was still in the box, it came in, not wrapped.

Number four,

he sent the kids in with coffee,

but he didn't come in, right?

I was upset and close to tears, right Sophie,

when he left for work,

because it felt like no effort at all had been made for him

to even notice it wasn't a regular day,

and it was a milestone birthday.

When I asked what time I should be home tonight,

thinking that we might be having, like,

a card or cake or something,

he said he had no plans,

and he thought we were going to celebrate the birthday

on the weekend.

He hasn't actually arranged a cake

or any element of that party either, though.

In the end,

he got a cheap supermarket cake and no card

and refused to have dinner with me that evening.

And here's the,

am I the problem part?

He's told me that I am self-obsessed and ridiculous

and holding him to insane high standards

that I'm 40 years old and not five,

and I shouldn't care or be upset.

So, am I the problem?

Am I being objectively unreasonable

to expect some level of enthusiasm

or effort over a 40th,

or am I being self-obsessed?

He's the problem.

He's the problem, it's him.

He's a massive problem.

Yeah, it's not you.

I'd be interested in some context of

how he's behaved on previous birthdays

and how he behaves on the kids' birthdays,

because there are some people who just don't get birthdays,

right?

I don't know what happened to them as children,

but they just don't get birthdays.

I'm married to one.

He doesn't understand birthdays.

So, my ears pricked up when he said,

but I thought we were celebrating it on Saturday.

Like, my husband,

I've been trying to teach him for many, many years

that when you get someone a birthday present,

you hold onto it until that day.

You don't just give it to them randomly when you get it

or just choose a day to go with them and buy it together.

He doesn't understand.

He thinks it's silly wrapping gifts.

He thinks birthdays are silly.

I understand there are some people who

who gifts aren't their love language.

They're not my love language either,

but effort are.

So, acts of service and words of affirmation.

So, cards for me and gestures are important.

And the point is that your spouse's birthday isn't

about how you feel about birthdays.

And how do you get to that point?

And this is why I think she's feeling so misunderstood

and like she's with someone who doesn't see her

is because she clearly is somewhat of a birthday person.

I don't think her standards are ridiculously high,

but hoping to be wished a happy birthday on the morning

or do something nice in the night when it is 40 years.

He sounds angry to me.

He sounds like he's resentful about something.

And I don't care actually if it's a milestone birthday or not.

40th, yeah, you kind of go,

all right, organize a dinner.

I don't care if it's a 42nd or a 46th or what.

Just something special.

And then for her to say this hurt my feelings

and for him to turn it around and say that she's being childish.

I think I do not like that.

I do not like it either.

We're all in full agreement.

I think she should start making plans for a life

that does not include this match.

I am going further.

There's a lot of steps.

I really think that if somebody who you're supposed to be

building a life sharing a family with,

if they cannot understand that something matters to you

even if it doesn't matter to them

and then they turn it around on you

and say that you're being unreasonable

for wanting them to recognize that you matter in their life

and that maybe they could change their routine just for one day.

We all have busy periods.

We all let things through the cracks.

I've certainly had birthdays with Brent

when I have not made very much of an effort

because there's a lot going on.

But if somebody says to you,

when I first started dating Brent,

he gave me objectively the worst present ever.

It tells you how long ago it was, right?

He gave me a CD because that's how long ago it was

that was unwrapped from its cellophane

because he'd already burnt it himself.

It's very practical because he was like,

I wanted it too.

It was like Bernard Fanning or something

that tells you about how it joined.

And I had to educate the man over time

that like, that's not a present.

Like I love you, but that's not a present.

He's come along because although he doesn't give a shit,

he's like, clearly it matters to you.

And whatever it is, if you can't give an inch

to show someone that they matter,

that relationship is screwy.

So I am going further.

If he is still blaming you

and he still doesn't understand,

you need to make plans for a life that doesn't involve someone

who doesn't think that you matter.

That's what I'm saying.

Out loud, as we would love your,

am I the problem, dilemmas?

Please send them to us.

But also a quick disclaimer,

no one giving advice on this podcast

is professionally qualified to do so.

Please do not take it too seriously

and blow up your life

because of something that me and Jessie and I said.

Thank you very much.

He's just not that into it.

Out loud.

If you want to make out loud

part of your routine five days a week,

we release segments on Tuesdays and Thursdays

just for Mamma Mia subscribers.

To get full access,

follow the link in the show notes,

and a big thank you to all our current subscribers.

Forget quiet quitting.

This year we've sent a spike in men loudly quitting.

On just a bit of news from me,

I've decided to hang up the boots

as co-host of Sunrise.

Truth is I'm tired, extremely tired.

In fact, I'm exhausted.

The birth of our second child the week before last

confirmed something for me.

My head and my heart are no longer here.

They are at home.

From leading football coaches,

whose names I can't remember,

to TV hosts and politicians,

there's been a large number of high-profile men

you may have noticed

who have been choosing to retire from their roles.

Instead of moving on to new roles,

they are instead choosing to take a full time out

and prioritize their personal life

over their professional ones.

Now, some of these men are kind of around retirement age,

I guess, like Koshy,

but a lot of them are much younger.

Earlier this week, for example,

Mark McGowan announced that he was stepping down,

not just as Premier and Labour leader,

but from political life entirely.

Here's what he said.

The truth is I'm tired, extremely tired.

In fact, I'm exhausted.

The role of political leadership doesn't stop.

It's relentless.

I love that, and on that same day,

Channel 7 Sunrise host Koshy

announced that he too was stepping back.

I'm going to miss working with the entire Sunrise team.

Sunrise has always been bigger than any one person.

It just seems right to exit stage left on Friday next week.

I will do so with enormous pride and gratitude,

and thank you for having me.

And then last week, Richmond AFL coach Damian Hardwick,

it's his name's written in my script,

resigned as well, and he said,

if I couldn't give this club the very best Damian Hardwick,

I wasn't prepared to see it out.

The job of AFL coach is very, very tough.

Don't get me wrong, I love it to death,

but I just need a break.

Last year, Northern Territory Chief Minister Michael Gunner

and Tassie Premier Peter Gutwyn

both announced they were quitting politics also

to focus on family.

Here's what Michael Gunner had to say.

The birth of our second child the week before last

confirmed something for me.

My head and my heart are no longer here.

They are at home.

I've grappled with this decision for some weeks.

They're welcoming.

A little nation to the world seal the deal.

There is never a perfect time to step back,

to walk away, to give others a go.

But for me, for my family, this feels like the right time.

The Quickie did a brilliant episode about this this morning

asking the question that in 2023,

have men realised that they too can't have it all

or are they just in need of a lie down?

Holly, what's going on?

First, it must be noted that clearly Mark McGowan

listened to Friday's episode of Out Loud.

What all the Out Louders are saying?

Because on Friday's episode of Out Loud,

we talked about how 2023 is the year of peak exhaustion.

Yeah.

And a lot of Out Louders resonated with that

when they heard him say those words like,

I'm tired. In fact, I'm exhausted.

I love that he said that.

Me too.

And so I think what's interesting here

is a sort of cultural shift,

and it's small but significant,

from McKismo,

which used to very much dictate

that a blokey leader in a blokey world,

politics, which unfortunately is still a blokey world,

football, big business, breakfast, television,

had to have a lot of ticker.

And you never quit.

And you never admitted that you were having a bad day

or that you were suffering or that you were tired.

Like it was kind of like a cultural need

that men would sacrifice their families,

their health, you know,

the classic stereotype of high-powered dudes

dropping dead of a heart attack in their 50s,

sacrifice literally everything

for external validation and success.

And that that's what we thought was a good thing

about really successful Logan Roy types.

And so I think it's kind of encouraging

that there's nothing apologetic about any of this.

And we don't want to be praising the men's

for like just admitting that they're tired.

But I feel like it is significant

that you can role model the idea

that a big job will take a lot out of you

and maybe that's exactly what's right for you

for a period of time or whatever,

but that there is no shame or embarrassment.

They used to be more sniggering about this.

When politicians in particular used to step down

without, you know, achieving necessarily everything.

And I know Mark McGowan is pretty much the most successful

state premier in a very long time.

Everyone would be like, what's really going on?

They didn't believe the family reasons.

They didn't believe the exhaustion,

but I've seen very little mocking of any of this,

which I think is probably a positive thing.

And it's probably because it's being felt so universally,

that when we look at him, we look at his face,

we hear his voice and we go,

yeah, no, that's exhaustion.

And I know because I feel exactly the same.

And so there's a bit of compassion there,

but it also kind of begs the question

if our jobs are demanding too much of us.

And I remember thinking that with Jacinda Ardern

and particularly with men,

women for decades have been demanding more flexibility

and saying we need to, after I have a baby,

be able to have whether it's more carers leave

or whatever it is, flexibility has been the real focus.

For men, that flexibility has been so slow

and still so stigmatized within a workplace

that it's interesting that these men

have to step back altogether,

which women do as well all the time,

but I wonder-

All the time, all the time women do.

Yes.

And so isn't the answer to this

that there is something fundamentally flawed

about the demands of the modern job,

the modern workplace?

Well, that's interesting.

I think it's a little bit early to tell

because we haven't had a pandemic before.

When you're a premier, there are some like Dan Andrews

and Anastasia Pallochet who are keeping on, keeping on.

But most premiers have either been replaced

or voted out or in the case of Mark McGowan,

he hasn't been.

So he and some of the others just said,

I'm done, I'm tapping out because I can't imagine

that being a political leader during COVID,

I mean, everyone had their own exhaustion,

but it must have been incredibly exhausting.

And it's often only when the adrenaline wears off

we were talking about this last week

that you feel the full force of the exhaustion

because you're not in fight-or-flight mode anymore.

And I think it sounds like that's what this is.

I think that's true,

but I think Jesse's point is interesting

because when they talk about it in the quickie

about the idea of men admitting they can't have it all either

is an interesting cultural tweak in that.

When we talk about the stereotypical big men with big jobs,

no one expected them to try and have anything else in their lives

like be around for their kids,

like maybe allow for their partner to also have an interesting job

or work outside the home.

And now we do,

like now we have a more rounded expectation

of what a healthy life looks like for everybody.

Then I think it is interesting

because I think obviously all these particular cases,

whether it's Koshy or the football coach or McGowan,

they're not normal jobs.

They're not normal jobs,

and they also have their own specific context.

And they also have the luxury of being incredibly highly paid

jobs that allow you to walk away.

And in fact, it's funny,

in Koshy's case when he talks about quitting that job

and then he lists what he still will be doing,

it's like three other jobs.

So it's like the bar for success is ever lifted

that actually you need to have like five big things going on

to be properly busy these days.

But I think it's interesting

because I think you're right, Jesse,

that if we are expecting everybody in partnerships

to be able to participate in family and home life more,

then something has to shift

in what we expect from people in other areas.

And there's been a recalibration of values there.

And I was listening to a podcast with Emma Gannon

who has written a book called The Success Myth.

I mean, she didn't hurt tomorrow for no filter.

No. Okay.

So she said a few things that I just thought were genius.

Her analogy was something,

and I'm going to butcher this,

but you know, you see a ballerina in those like slippers

and the beautiful slippers,

and then underneath you see the broken toes.

Like there are so many broken toes we can't see.

And because of what we value as a culture,

we look at the Mark McGowan's or the coaches or the Koshy's

and we go, they are at the top of their game,

but the sacrifices people like that are making

are just simply not worth it a lot of the time.

I think this is really positive, optimistic news

because exactly what you said earlier,

which is no one's being mocked.

Once upon a time,

these guys would have just kept going until they dropped dead

or until their performance left them or until their performance suffered so badly.

I mean, you look at the old model of politicians

who would just stay and stay and stay

even when they should have left like John Howard,

should have called time,

but there's that masculine, powerful thing like,

it's my identity to have this big job.

So the fact that they're willing to walk away

and be honest about it,

I think that's incredibly positive.

And I reckon it's a reaction to five years ago,

we were peak hustle culture.

We were peak.

I'm building my empire.

I'm hustling, entrepreneurial,

like everyone, there was a real sense of that.

I even say it's sort of in like the Lux Listings example.

There is this backlash that's like,

there's almost nothing more powerful than saying,

I actually don't want that.

I don't want that.

I want balance.

I want flexibility.

And I think there's a cultural shift coming.

And this is the first time we've seen it with men.

I was lying away last night, whole thinking of you,

because I know you've been having some issues with Insomnia.

My Insomnia has been so much better since I started HRT,

but it got me thinking that I wanted to tell out loud as,

it's been a year since we did the Very Perry Summit.

I know a lot of out louders came to that.

It was kind of the first of its kind with lots of experts talking

about all the different aspects of Perry menopause.

And I knew that I was suffering from it,

but I'd been quite late to that realization

because the symptoms can be so varied,

everything from brain fog to, I always forget the symptoms,

rage, teariness,

flooding periods,

all these different things that you often just think,

oh, it's my marriage or it's my job

or it's whatever my life.

And it's actually your hormones.

And so we brought together all these experts,

did this summit.

It went absolutely gangbusters.

And the feedback we've had is that people would like it

in audio form because we're busy.

You know, after the pandemic,

we were more interested in maybe watching videos.

Now we want to listen to things in audio form.

So we have turned the entire Very Perry Summit

into an audio series, including some updates

and fresh interviews.

So is it like a podcast series

in terms of how you consume it?

Yeah, you do.

Come through your podcast feed.

We'll put a link in the show notes

where you can get all the details that's available now.

The concept of rage and actually being enraged

is something that we see very, very commonly in women.

And I've actually looked at this

from all sorts of different angles,

but in a nutshell, what I think is going on

is with the change and declining estrogen levels

in the brain in particular,

it's almost as if there is a kind of uncovering

of things that have been kept covered

or submerged for some time.

This changed my life.

This helped me get control of my life.

I decided to go on HRT after listening to the experts

who were interviewed.

The things I thought about HRT or the myths were not true.

And it's just been amazing.

And so many women have said it's changed their life.

So if you know a woman who's going through perimenopause,

which can go for 10 years, by the way,

I highly recommend.

Hole's done some of the interviews.

I have done some of the updates,

including I asked a naturopath about sleeping

and she told me to give up caffeine and I was like,

I'll get back to you.

Is there another option?

Yeah, there are,

because some women can't take HRT.

So we also talk about the alternatives to HRT.

So link in the show notes, the very peri audio series.

And if you're looking for something else to listen to,

we actually released two extra episodes yesterday.

We work hard for you out louders.

We do.

One of them was our subscriber segment about wedding trends

that have gone a little bit haywire.

There may be some pointed comments in there

from some of us about.

Other of us.

Yes.

And the other one was our recap of the succession finale.

We know not all out louders love it,

but we've dropped it in the ordinary out louder feed

for those who do.

And also for you to share with any of your succession

obsessed friends.

So even if it's not your thing,

but you'd have friends who would say,

listen, Holly, me and Jesse.

We debriefed.

We debriefed.

It was great.

And we didn't necessarily agree with each other

about all the theories about what happened.

It was much fun.

So both of those things are available.

So you listen to now and we'll put links in the show notes.

Thank you for listening to Australia's number one

news and pop culture show.

This episode was produced by Susanna Makin.

Get well soon.

I'm a Gillespie audio production by Lea Porges.

And we'll see you tomorrow.

Bye.

Bye.

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Machine-generated transcript that may contain inaccuracies.