Mamamia Out Loud: The Truth Of Being 'Hollywood Thin' Has Leaked

You're listening to a Mamma Mia podcast.

Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters that this podcast is recorded on.

Hello and welcome to Mamma Mia Out Loud!

It's what women are talking about on Monday the 15th of May.

I'm Holly Wainwright.

I'm Mia Friedman.

And I'm Claire Murphy, filling in for Jesse Stevens.

Now, our Jesse Stevens is poorly.

I love it when you say poorly, I love it.

Oh, she is poorly.

It's very British and fancy.

Because I know Out Louders will be worried about her.

Last week, she wasn't poorly.

Last week, she was moving house.

She had a lot on.

But this week, our Jesse is poorly.

She has COVID.

She's got COVID in the flu.

And also, Claire Stevens, who often fills in for Jesse,

is also sick, probably with the same thing.

I love how you guys have, like, subbed in one twin for the other

and now you're just subbing in one Claire for the other.

So true.

We're all just one step away from each other.

We don't have a lot of imagination, do we?

But the thing is, is that ourselves and the brilliant Claire

Murphy are the last women standing at Mama Mia's.

But I know that all the Out Louders will want to send Jesse

all their love to get better soon, as we all do.

But on the show today, another celebrity has admitted

that she doesn't eat hardly at all.

And Mia argues that this is a cause for celebration.

Bear with us.

Plus, why is turning into your mother such an insult?

And is the glass cliff the new shitskirt?

And is one new high-profile job the perfect example of it?

But first, Mia Friedman.

I understand you're having some footy shoes.

You've been discussing this on this very show.

I did.

My feet seem to have grown and none of my winter boots fit me.

Well, I hate to break it to you,

but I fear the aging process has reached your feet.

Because Sally Williams wrote in and said,

look, she has also had this experience of her feet growing

sizes later on in life.

And she says she was told it's because her arches have dropped

and you get more flat footed in peri.

So that's a thing.

But also, it's happened to me.

I went to the podiatrist and they were like, oh, yeah,

as you age and as you maybe not as thin as you used to be,

insert maybe you're a little bit too heavy for your own feet.

It can actually create downward pressure on your arches

and that too can make them flatten out

and hence your feet aren't really getting any bigger.

They're just getting flatter.

I see.

All my shoes are still too tight.

But it's good to know that I've got peri feet.

You've got peri feet.

Oh, dear.

Hilary Duff is starving.

Just weeks after Gwyneth Paltrow did a podcast interview.

Remember that one?

The one where she was attached to an IV drip that was infusing her

with the vitamins that, you know, most people get from eating food

while she talked about how she has this diet of bone broth

and vegetables pretty much.

Well, last week actress Hilary Duff, who is 35

and has just had her third daughter,

she's admitted in a different podcast

that she starves herself in the morning too,

as often as she can in order to stay,

well, to stay as thin as Hollywood wants her to be.

Here's a little bit of what she told hosts Molly Sims

and Emma Shagomly last week

on their lifestyle podcast, Lipstick on the Rim.

I wake up really hungry.

I'm obsessed with those cauliflower rounds.

I know exactly what you're talking about.

They're so good.

You don't know this, Molly.

What is this?

It's made of cauliflower and it looks like a pita,

but it's small, but they're just cauliflower

and maybe like one other thing.

They're super clean.

And I put it in the air fryer,

put like egg salad on top of it.

I'll put like avocado or I'll put like a fried egg

and like a vegan sausage.

I do overnight oats.

You know, Gwen, it's been trouble for saying this,

but sometimes I try to just drink coffee in the morning

and start with my hunger.

I do that too.

But we all do it.

She just says it.

Well, this is a new thing

and I'm actually quite delighted about it.

And I'll explain to you why in a second,

famous women finally are actually admitting

that they're starving.

It's not a diet.

It's not clean eating,

although she did refer to clean.

It's just not eating.

After Hillary's comments were circulated

from this podcast,

the backlash was pretty swift and very predictable.

So some people were angry at the podcasters

for publishing the episode at all

and propagating these disordered eating habits.

And others were angry at Hillary

for admitting that she starves herself

because isn't she meant to be a role model

for other women?

When I went Googling to find,

because I wanted to listen to the whole interview

and context, which I did before I wrote about it,

I also did on Mama Mia.

We'll put a link in the show notes.

One of the Google results that came up high

was about when Hillary Duff had spoken

about a horrific eating disorder,

as she described it,

that she had in her late teens.

So she's someone who is recovering from an eating disorder

and is clearly eating in a disordered way still.

And the reason that I think it's brilliant

is not that they're starving,

but the fact that the truth of what it takes

to be Hollywood thin is finally starting to leak out.

Like, this mask is slipping,

because instead of eating these famous skinny women

are admitting that they drink coffee

or lemon water or bone broth,

and then they go and work out for hours and hours

so that they can fit into that dress,

get cast in that TV show,

walk that red carpet or land those beauty contracts

and attract those followers

or, you know, sell those vitamins on their wellness website.

We've always suspected it wasn't just good jeans

and running around after a toddler all day

as celebrities used to say

when asked about their diet tips back in the day.

Chloe Murphy, why do we get mad

when skinny women tell us how they stay so skinny?

Yeah, it's interesting, isn't it?

Because for a very long time,

we've been calling on them to be truthful,

and then when they are truthful,

we're very mad at them for being truthful

or for allowing that truth to be set free

because we're scared of the implications of that.

But let's be honest,

the implications of not sharing it

has also been very detrimental to women

over the generation,

so six, one, half dozen of the other.

But I feel like in a lot of instances,

we're not mad at the sharing of the disordered eating.

I don't think we're all so mad at Hilary Duff

because we know that she's had to do things

in order to achieve what she's had to achieve,

and that's not her fault.

That is the way that Hollywood is structured.

I think sometimes we get mad because we can't do that.

And when I say we can't do that, we can.

And there are people who do,

and disordered eating is rife.

We know that it's even been increasing in recent years too

when we've all been much more positive about our bodies.

But I think we get angry when we hear what these women are doing

and we know that they have goals to achieve,

roles to score, personal chefs, personal trainers, money, time,

all of those things that we don't have.

So for us to just decide not to eat anymore,

that's not just a reflection of our career paths.

That could wipe out our families.

There's so much more to it.

And we're angry because we can't be thin like that.

Like it's just not achievable.

And I think it's really difficult to look at someone who goes,

oh, I just have coffee, so I don't eat anymore.

And it's like, God, that's awful.

That's so unhealthy.

In the interview class, she didn't sound happy about it.

So she was talking with Molly Sims,

who's a former model and also an actress.

And none of them made it seem easy or fun.

Didn't she sound like it was almost kind of like,

oh, you know, sometimes I just have a coffee

so that I get rid of the hunger.

She went on and, Hol, I want to ask you about this,

because she went on to talk about it.

It was more that they were resigned,

that this is just what you have to do.

And they talked about being so tired from working out so much

and so hungry.

You know, they were essentially swapping war stories in a way

and saying this is just what they have to do before an event,

before a shoot, before a casting.

I agree with you, Mia, that pulling back the curtain on this

is good, right?

It's really good because we have convinced ourselves

that somehow there's a type of human being

who can stay a size zero with very little effort

and that there must be something wrong with all of the rest of us

who have presented with that beauty standard

in our faces all the time.

Can I interrupt for just one second that those people

that you just described do actually exist?

Oh, no, I know they do.

And inevitably, we sometimes, when you talk about this,

get accused of skinny shaming

and saying that naturally thin people,

they must be doing this.

I know they exist, but the proportion of the population

that they are is tiny.

And there is no way that they are vastly overrepresented

in the creative arts.

There's no way that that's like a prerequisite

to be a good actress or a great pop star.

Do you know what I mean?

It's much more likely that all of those people

who have those jobs that put them in the public eye

and turn them into role models for us,

they are working incredibly hard to be that acceptable shape.

And so I agree with Mia that I think it's great

in a way that we are doing away with the bullshit

of I just woke up like this, right?

But I can also see the argument that it is irresponsible

because the truth of it is

because these beauty standards are so insidious

and because we are all told all the time

that our bodies are too big and taking up too much space,

no matter how big and how much space they take up,

we will seize this.

I will go like cauliflower rounds.

Interesting.

That sounds like a low-carb breakfast alternative

and I'll Google them and see where I might be able to get them.

Only eating coffee for breakfast is a version of intermittent fasting,

which is something that I know shed loads of women who do

and try not to eat till midday.

And so I can see why it is irresponsible for this

to be everywhere because we will seize on it

and we will turn it in on ourselves and we'll go,

well, if Hilary Duff can do that, then I reckon I could do that.

When really the response we would love people to have is like,

that sounds awful and joyless and I would rather eat toast.

But that's not a reality.

Do you know what I hate the most about myself

when I see stories like this, though,

is I know how much my brain is trained to prefer women who are thin.

And I hate it so much when I look at women on a red carpet

and I see them wearing these amazing gowns

that they've obviously worked incredibly hard to get into

and we know what Kim Kardashian did to fit into Malor and Monroe's dress.

But when I look at her, I think, my gosh, she looks amazing.

Or I see another woman who's a fuller figure

and I think, oh, you know, that would look better on her

had she been a bit thinner and it's not what I believe,

but it's just what my brain and my eyes tell me.

But it's what you've been swimming in.

It used to drive me crazy when I was in magazines

and the people in the fashion industry and the magazine industry

would say, oh, it's just aspirational.

It's just fantasy.

I'm like, well, when you feed women literally a diet

of one specific body type as the ideal one

from the time we are born, of course, we internalize that.

Of course, that's how we think.

But it's interesting because Laura Brodnick said this

on the spill the other day.

There was another storm around a celebrity body last week

was Mindy Kaling, right?

Mindy Kaling comic writer icon

who is suddenly on magazine covers

because she has lost a lot of weight

and she's launched a swimwear line

and everybody is mad with her

because A, they are suspicious about how she did that

and B, they're like, you've kind of let us down somehow Mindy

and Laura made the very good point

that actually what's sad about that is it's taken this

for Mindy Kaling to get the magazine covers that she deserves

because she's an incredibly talented and amazing person.

And so I am very anti-beating up the women themselves

in me as peace.

You say this, you say, don't hate the player, hate the game

and I agree with that because we are so mad with women

when they won't tell us how they lost weight.

Chrissy Swan has spoken about this, right?

In the interview she did on The Imperfect.

She said her DMs are just full of people being

but exactly how long do you walk for

and exactly what do you eat and exactly blah blah

and she's like, I do not want to talk about it.

I'm not going to talk about it

and everybody's mad with her about it

but then you ask a woman how she lost weight

or how she stays a certain weight

and she tells you the truth

and then we're mad at her about that

and it's like women are terrible role models

if they are wanting to lose a few kilos

or wanting to put an injectable in their face

but the things we'll put up with

from our male role models are astounding.

And what's interesting to me is it's not a coincidence

that this mask has started to slip thanks to podcasts

because in both instances Gwyneth was talking

to her wellness doctor who has a podcast

and Hillary was talking to, I know, sorry,

he's not really a doctor

and Hillary was talking to Molly Sims

who's a former actress and model and who's a friend

and who also works in Hollywood.

So even though there's long been an unspoken rule

that celebrities will not be truthful when asked

what I think is interesting is that when you're in a podcast

and you're being interviewed by a friend

their guards are down.

So the friend is just like, yeah, yeah

and so they're talking to someone who's like-minded.

So it's overhearing a conversation where you're like, oh,

because this is obviously what celebrities

all talk about behind the scenes with each other.

What drugs are you on?

What surgery are you getting?

Give me the name of your surgeon.

Where can I get a script for whatever drug you're taking?

Not only celebrities, that's how women are talking.

Where this is how women are talking.

So what's so unfair is that we suffer

from these beauty standards

but then we also suffer because we're gaslit

because women can't be honest with each other publicly

about what it takes to make those beauty standards.

So although I agree with you, back to the bad influence

for a moment, the idea that this is irresponsible.

I know that there's definitely an argument

that like, yes, this is how women speak to each other.

Yes, this is what celebrities are all talking about

at their cocktail parties

and now there are so many celebrity interview podcasts

we're getting a little glimpse at here, which is fabulous.

But when we know how contagious disordered eating is

and we know that women will, as I said, grab on to

even as they touch and shake their heads and go,

that's terrible, a secretly Googling,

call a fire around coffee breakfast.

Like, is there a responsibility

for them to keep this shit to themselves?

No, I think there's a responsibility for them to be honest

because I read it and I went,

I'd prefer to eat the piece of toast

and not be a size zero.

But you're a thin person, yeah.

Yeah, I understand that, but it doesn't sound all fun.

Like, when you listen to what Gwyneth Paltrow says,

maybe someone who's got disordered eating,

well, who can find all that information on the internet anyway,

or who's got an eating disorder will lean into that.

But I think it's like the emperor's new clothes.

Finally, we're saying, oh my God,

like if this is what they have to do,

what crazy messed up system are we living in?

If you or anyone you know is struggling with disordered eating,

please reach out to the Butterfly Foundation.

They do amazing work.

You can call them on 1-800-ED-HOPE

or you can go to butterfly.org.au

and they have an online chat function there.

I saw a meme yesterday on Mother's Day

that tipped me over the edge

and how all of the days have got so complicated.

It was on Slate, which is a very rad American website.

And I just saw on their Instagram this tile that led to a story

and it said this,

yeah, you deserve a day off,

but the idea that your kids owe you that,

no, you owe your kids.

It's hard to be alive and you forced them to be alive.

I cannot.

So let's make mothers feel guilty also on Mother's Day.

Are you kidding me?

Did you get some kind of crappy handmade gift from your child?

I did. It was glorious.

I worked.

So I was away from my children yesterday,

so I'm officially a bad mother with a capital B and a capital M.

Tucked. Tucked.

But I requested a candle, a smelly candle,

and Brent went to buy one at a, like a wonderful,

but a relatively kind of standard shop.

Are you trying to say cheap?

Yeah, I'm trying to say cheap.

Okay, right.

And he messaged me to say,

which one of these would you like?

And I said,

if I'm requesting only a candle for Mother's Day,

don't buy me a fucking expensive one, please.

So good.

I am a terrible person.

What about you, me? Did you get something fun?

No, presents aren't my love language.

I like words of affirmation.

So usually I like cards,

but this year I just, to my kids, just don't even wave at it.

I think maybe I was being a martyr

because I felt a bit teary by the end of the day.

But do you know what I think around all of this discussion

is just the idea of who mothers are.

And for a long time I struggled even using the word

mum or mother because it felt like an insult.

Like it was something that you should be ashamed of

because mums are less than

is what I've always kind of been told,

especially as a career person.

I've been told that a mum in my industry is a liability.

So you don't say the word out loud, right?

In hand with that is this idea

that I don't want to turn out like my mum.

Like being my mum in my brain for a long time

was like the worst possible outcome

for me growing into an adult woman.

Did you have a good relationship with your mum?

I have a great relationship.

I mean, not always teenage years fraught as they are.

Wasn't best, but they were both my parents

incredibly supportive and encouraging.

And my mum now and I have a wonderful relationship

and I love and I adore her.

But for a very long time it was like, I don't want to be her.

I need to be independent, me.

Nothing like her.

And if I heard her words creep out of my mouth,

I was mortified because it was like, oh no, it's happening.

I'm becoming her.

And I was like, this can't be.

But then my sister started turning a bit into my mum, right?

And I gave her a shit for it.

So she took up knitting, for example,

which is something my mum has done forever.

And I gave her so much shit about it.

I was like, look at you,

Nana Catherine sitting there with your little knitting,

blah, blah, blah.

And she was like, trust me, it's going to come to a point

where you're going to pick up stuff that mum did

and you're going to think it's cool.

And I'm like, never.

No way in my life.

And then just very recently,

I purchased a sewing machine.

Turning into your mother.

My mum was, she's got arthritis in her fingers now,

so she finds it difficult.

But she has been an avid sewer.

She sewed all of our clothes when we were kids.

There's photos of us in these glorious, like,

I forget what you call it.

It's like this ruched kind of material

and like in various similar styles,

but in the same material.

So my sister's got a version.

I've got a version.

She put a lot of effort into making our clothes

and they were beautiful now looking back at them

at the time I was not as appreciative.

But as I'm setting up my sewing machine,

I start thinking about my mum.

And I think about how demonised mums are

in that narrative that turning into your mum

or saying things that your mum said

is like the worst possible thing that can happen to you.

And I've started to embrace it now.

I've noticed that I've started to make a noise

that my mum makes.

Like if I hurt myself.

Oh.

Oh.

Oh.

Oh.

Oh.

All the time.

Oh.

Oh.

The other thing I've been noticing that I do

and I don't know if my mum does this is

I started to make noises when I get up and sit down.

Yes.

Are we groaning?

Are we at groaning point?

Yes.

I'm definitely turning into my mother.

And the thing is, is I relate

because when I catch myself doing things,

saying things that my mother would say,

I am really annoyed with myself.

Same.

And I'm like, oh my God.

I sound just like my mother.

And the thing is, is my mother's awesome.

Right.

Like she's absolutely kick ass.

She lives a great life.

She treats people really well.

She's, you know, always worked and done all these things

that really make her happy.

And she's great.

But I don't want to be her.

And I think that one of the reasons for that,

and we took, remember we used to talk about this

in the mum and me are out loud live show,

is that we treat our mums with disdain

when they're doing all these lovely things for us.

And she's still like, not good enough.

Not enough.

Why did you do that?

Jesse would tell a story about how when she pulls up

at her parents' house, her mum will be like outside,

pretending to take the bins out,

just because she's so excited to see her.

That's so cute.

Dad will be in the back garden,

barely noticing that she's called by the wrong name.

Called by her sister's name.

And Jesse's just like, oh, mum, like, oh, mum,

like we're trained to treat the disdain.

And I have a theory that it's because

in a traditional heterosexual family,

the mother is the one who since you were born

has done all the shit jobs.

She's wiped your bum.

She's sucked the snot out of your nose.

She's like picked your dirty pants up for you.

It's hard to have respect for someone who will do that for you.

Mums need to play harder to get.

That's my theory.

I feel like I want us to stop demonizing,

turning into your mum.

Sometimes turning into your mum can be the most glorious thing ever.

She's taught you everything.

Like if you pick up nothing from your mum,

then like some people don't have that relationship

with their mum, and I understand that.

But if you pick up nothing from what your mum has taught you

over the years, and that is on you, and that is not good.

If you want to make out loud part of your routine five days a week,

we release segments on Tuesdays and Thursdays

just for mum and me, our subscribers.

To get full access, follow the link in the show notes,

and a big thank you to all our current subscribers.

Big news in Silicon Valley.

Not that you care, but bear with me,

because it's good news, sort of.

Elon Musk has decided that he might not be the best CEO of Twitter.

I'm shocked.

I'm shocked and stunned.

Considering it's not going that well.

He still owns it, but he's actually hired a CEO now

to stop him from making Twitter so much worse.

And she's a woman.

The new CEO of Twitter is Linda Jacarino.

And it is worth celebrating because it's worth noting

that only about 5% of big bosses in tech companies are women.

But also, it's worth noting that women are much more likely

to be appointed leaders of businesses like Twitter

when things aren't going that great.

You might remember on Mamma Mia Out Loud

how we used to talk about the shit skirt,

which was the mantle you are handled to do a job

that no one else wants.

And in particular, we talked about it with Theresa May,

the British Prime Minister who was handed the mess that was Brexit,

the big smelly turd that was Brexit,

and smeared all of her skirt that she pulled on as PM.

It's also called the glass cliff,

a job that no one wants,

or an item of clothing that no one else will wear,

because it stinks so much.

Often it's seen that the powerful men

who are jockeying around big dick-swinging jobs

will back away when they start to smell that shit

or see the cliff looming in the distance.

And that opens a space for other people,

so anyone who isn't a dick-swinging alpha man,

so women and also minorities,

this obviously applies to as well, to sneak through.

And if you're viewing it through rose-tinted glasses,

you'd go, this is your big chance.

This is your big chance to come on in

and show that you can do it.

But what very often happens

is that the woman will tip over the edge of the cliff

and the dick-swingers will all blame her for what went wrong,

close ranks, and then get on with things being exactly as they were.

Now, there's a counterpoint of view in this recognised phenomenon.

I have a question.

Does the woman taking it know it's a cliff?

Well, I would imagine that if you're about to be made the CEO of Twitter,

or become the Prime Minister of the UK,

I think you do know it's a cliff.

And there are some examples.

For example, Jacinda Ardern was seen as a glass cliff appointment

because Labour's polling was in the toilet

and the leader before was terrible,

and she turned it all around like the scrappy little heroine that she was

and became the world's most famous leader.

But that's rare.

However, there is one more optimistic way of viewing this,

and this is what I'd love to talk about.

Some people say that another reason why women are more likely to get the job at this time

is because they're better at crisis management,

that they are better at taking an organisation

and using their emotional intelligence to turn it all around.

What do we think, Mia?

I think that's actually a really good point

because I think when there is a crisis,

some people could say the hunting instinct that is traditionally male is helpful

because it's focused, you've got to take down the mammoth basically.

But in many cases, a crisis for a company will be from a business sense

or a political sense like with the political party

or the massive publicly listed company that was bought for $44 billion

and is now worth about $8 billion.

Well done, Elon.

It's actually very complex and very nuanced.

There's not one single thing that needs to happen.

There's a number of things.

And so communication or gathering information

and bringing people along with you,

which is traditionally female qualities,

is more useful in that instance.

They call them soft leadership skills.

They call them soft leadership skills

and hard leadership skills are data targets.

You know, get that thing.

Soft leadership skills are people management basically.

But Claire, do you think that the good side of it also

is that if it doesn't work, it can't be more broken.

Like apart from actually just crashing and not being online anymore,

things can't get that much worse.

The only way is up.

So is it actually a really good time to come in and be the boss?

Well, I think when you talk about the percentage of women

who are the head of Fortune 500 companies,

I think there's some crazy stat that like there's more dudes called John

than there are women.

So we know that women struggle to get into these positions

in the first place, right?

So if you have a Steve and Bradbury moment

and everyone else who's a man in front of you falls over

so you have the opportunity to get in there,

there is something to be said about women

being in those positions in the first place.

Like we talked about Mindy Kaling needing to be skinny

to get on the front of a magazine, right?

It's kind of the same thing,

that women have to wait for a man to fail

in order for them to be considered, right?

Because otherwise they're invisible behind that BDE

as you talked about, Holly.

So there is something in being able to get there in the first place.

But when you get there, if you don't Jacinda Ardern that thing,

then you are a scapegoat and then that leaves a legacy

for all the women behind you

who then only use that as an example

and say, look what happens when a woman's in charge.

Look what happened when we gave those people

who are always saying they want to turn a turn.

Nothing was good, was it?

But no one blames Theresa May for Brexit being a mess

or for Britain to being in a state now, do they?

Well, the British Conservative Party

have been in charge of Britain now for 12 years, I think.

Might be longer than that, in fact.

And the country's in a right mess.

But Theresa May, Brexit in particular was hung on her.

So that's not so much of an issue anymore.

Then Liz Truss, another glass cliff, last for about three minutes.

Got about her, the latest Prime Minister.

The latest Prime Minister.

The one who lasted as long as an iceberg in the fridge.

What was hung on her, and she did make things worse, let's be honest.

Although, you know, you could argue that there was no way to salvage that,

was the economic state of Britain.

Now Rishi Sunak isn't making anything better,

but he's got a bit of clear air

because those things are out of the way, right?

Well, out of the way to a point.

And so you could argue that those two were glass cliffs

and they went over the edge of it and things aren't necessarily better.

But those particular crises could be hung on those two women.

Isn't it better to?

Gender might have nothing to do, of course,

with any of those performance issues or the issues in Britain.

But if a woman will put her hand up for a job that no one else wants

because she knows how hard it is to get in.

Yeah.

Then I think it's that thing of them.

But then that's an opportunity, that's a good thing.

Well, it's an opportunity if it's a good thing,

but not if the whole process is broken anyway, right?

Because as Claire says, the Jacinda Ardern in it

is a very rare thing because probably systemically

you're not going to succeed

and one person isn't going to make that much difference.

For example, in Elon Musk's version of Twitter

is one woman going to really make a difference?

Well, the problem there is Elon Musk and he's still the owner.

The thing is that everyone's going to know who she is.

I think this will open up so many more opportunities for her.

It'll be bloody interesting if nothing else.

But then having said that,

when I chose to go to a job in a male-dominated environment,

I remember saying those exact words to myself.

If nothing else, it'll be very interesting

because it was at a really, really difficult time.

When I went to Channel 9,

it was an incredibly tumultuous, terrible time at Channel 9.

Glasscliff?

Glasscliff.

When I did, I fell off the glasscliff

because I remember saying to myself,

at least it'll be interesting and it was just awful.

I hated every second of it,

but I shouldn't have taken that job.

One person can't fix a completely broken thing, right?

Particularly when they're not the boss.

So it's really scapegoating is what it is.

And you might Jacinda Ardern it.

You could argue with hindsight

that the awful catastrophes that happened under her leadership

gave her an opportunity to show how brilliant she was.

And maybe if she did live through more boring times,

then that might not have happened in the same way.

All Linda really has to do is reverse the legacy blue tick

and all the celebrities will be happy.

And then maybe she'll go some way

to actually fixing the bin fire that is Twitter.

Because Elon, holy Moses mate,

like for someone who claims to be an incredible businessman,

he is the major failure in all of this.

So if it is not hinged on him

and it's all put on Linda's shoulders

and that says more about us as a society

looking at who the failure is in this system

than on who exactly is responsible for taking down Twitter.

Because we all are 100% know that it's Elon.

Claire, you've got a recommendation for us

and it's one that I don't understand

but the out louders have all been chitter chattering about.

Holy Moses, why do you not understand Firefly Lane?

I've never watched it.

That's old.

It is old.

Okay, let me explain.

We've got two series.

The first series aired, I can't remember, a year or two ago

and then we got half of series two

and we've just got the second half of series two.

Home hasn't really felt the same since I lost my best friend.

When did she pass?

We just stopped speaking.

She's actually probably great.

You look a little tired.

Do you want to take a seat?

I'm not tired.

Are you tired?

Pretty good considering.

Have you thought about reaching out to Tully?

You might need a friend.

You've got Tully.

Make it good or I won't call you back.

I just really need you, okay.

So the first half of season two left us on quite the cliffhanger

and for everyone who's been waiting for the second half of this season

don't expect that cliffhanger to be resolved until the final episode

and anyone who's watched it will know what I'm talking about

but I'm not going to give anything away.

What's it about?

Because I watched it and I think it was a lot longer than one year ago.

I think it was like five years ago.

So it starts Catherine Heigl, a dude who once said she was rude

and then never got to work again for ages

and Sarah, whose surname I've forgotten, used to be in scrubs.

The pair of them are best friends.

They meet in Firefly Lane, hence the name of the show,

when they are teenage girls.

And the series tracks their relationship over the years

and the different phases of life through which they go

all the way through into adulthood.

And for anyone who has had a best friend in their life

there will be so many moments that you identify with

relationships when you argue, when they're at their best,

when they are there for you, no questions asked.

It gets right to the heart of a female friendship.

It is so gloriously beautiful.

And then I won't give anything away,

but the second half of this second series

based off the cliffhanger from the first half,

God, it plays with your emotions so hard.

I cried a lot.

And then during the season finale,

which is the peak of the emotional section,

my best friend texted me,

I miss you and I think I nearly died.

Darling.

It's all there, you can binge it.

I feel like I've gone on a journey just with that recommendation.

It is all there.

You can binge series one and two in its entirety

if you want to start from the beginning.

It is gorgeous.

Those two women, like if they're not best friends in real life,

I will be shocked because that relationship on screen

is so beautiful and flawed and wonderful and perfect

and all the things, go watch it.

It's on Netflix.

The Out Loudest will be happy because I saw someone come

into the Out Loudest Facebook group the other day

and they missed something.

Why aren't we talking about Firefly Lake?

Do you know what else I do that's like my mum

that I've just realised right now?

Has anyone else started licking their finger

before they turn the page?

Oh, Brent, does that drive me nuts?

Why? Why is that something that only old people do?

Why do I do it now?

Brent, does it?

Maybe you've lost all your natural oils

that used to turn the pages.

Are my fingers dry because of Perry?

Is this what's happened?

Along with your flat feet and all the rest of it.

Thank you, Clare Murphy, for stepping in

for our beautiful, sick Jessie.

I hope you get well soon, darling.

We are all thinking of you, but thank you, Clare Murphy.

As always, you are brilliant.

Thank you, ladies.

You can listen to Clare Murphy every day on The Quickie,

bringing you up to speed daily.

Anyway, thank you for listening to Mum, Me, Out Loud,

everyone.

This episode is produced by Emica Lesby

with assistant production from Susanna Makin

and audio production from Leah Porges

and we will see you tomorrow.

Bye.

Bye.

Shout out to any Mama Mia subscribers listening.

If you love the show and you want to support us,

subscribing to Mama Mia is the very best way to do it.

There's a link in the episode description.

Machine-generated transcript that may contain inaccuracies.