Mamamia Out Loud: The Surprise Allure Of This Pathetic Man

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Mamma Mia Out Loud!

Hello and welcome to Mamma Mia Out Loud.

It's what women are talking about on Wednesday, the 5th of April.

I'm Holly Wainwright.

I'm Mia Freedman.

And I'm Jessie Stevens.

And you're back, you're back.

Congratulations.

I'm the new one, Honeymoon.

I'm the new one, Honeymoon.

Bridey lady.

I'm gonna go next week.

Okay.

I've got one in the works, but I am here.

One in the oven.

A bun in the oven and one in the works.

I love that you're back at work in between the wedding and the Honeymoon.

Yes.

Tell us.

How are you?

It was just amazing.

Second thoughts?

Regrets.

You've had a few.

Regrets.

Yeah.

Feedback.

It's a funny thing before people are like, are you nervous?

But like, there are a few people that look at you like, you know, you can get out of this

if you really want to.

You're just like, no, I don't know.

It was the last thing on my mind.

I think that any of your anxiety is about like, this spectacle.

Imagine if you'd have like, done a runaway bride.

How awkward it would have been in the studio.

Could you imagine?

On Monday.

The three of us.

The great exclusive Monday story.

That would have been great for some.

Hi.

So, Jessie, where were you?

Where were you?

You're funny.

Amazing day being a guest, but was it amazing day for you?

It was incredible.

I didn't know anything about the wedding before I got there.

Surprise wedding.

It was a surprise wedding.

And that's certainly not because I organised it.

As out loud as we'll know, not my bag, way above my pay grade.

So, Luca pretty much did it all without wedding planner.

Exactly.

And luckily, the man has an attention to detail.

The highlights.

Because we just spent the day being pleasantly surprised, didn't we?

Exactly.

Everyone said the food was great.

It was great.

Wine was great.

Alcohol was great.

Luca did a lot of the organising.

Highlights for me were, I loved the ceremony and I loved the speeches.

They were the highlights.

We have recorded a subs episode that goes into detail from everything to...

Because there's some private stuff in there.

Well, there's private stuff and also not everybody is interested.

Exactly.

If you are interested in all the wedding detail from Jessie's wedding.

And sorry, we should have said this for out loud as we're not familiar.

Co-host Jessie Stevens on Friday married co-host Mia Friedman's son.

In a first in Australian podcasting history.

Potentially world podcasting history.

It's true.

They are now the only mother-in-law daughter-in-law duo in Australian podcasting.

I am officially the only real third wheel in any of the Australian's most listened to shows.

Anyway, we have recorded a big special.

And it's available for subscribers like right now.

If you want to hear all about the wedding right now, the link is in the show notes.

You can go and listen.

And if you don't want to hear about the wedding, stay with us.

But I will say there was a...

What I will call a significant crisis.

No, there was.

For anyone who is really close to a sibling or is a twin, you will understand.

Thank you to all the out louders.

Like what it meant to us on Saturday and Sunday to go in...

And Friday actually to go into the out louders Facebook group and read your excitement and your comments.

And also your sleuthing skills.

Yeah.

With looking at photos and trying to see reflections of the dress from guests.

We just...

We were so incredibly chuffed and moved and wanted to say we felt all of your love.

And to the hundreds of out louders that helped me with my single job,

which was to choose a few readings from the ceremony.

You were there in the subs episode.

I go through some of the ones I stole from that group.

Thank you so, so much.

And all your well wishes.

Oh, it was just lovely.

People love a wedding.

It's just full of happiness.

So pure.

Happy news.

Happy news.

That's this week's second subscriber segment.

It's a full...

Quite long because we couldn't shut up.

Run down of the wedding day.

And that's instead of our usual Thursday segment.

So we're dropping it early so that you can jump over there right now if you want to and listen to it.

And if you don't stay with us, listen to the show.

In fact, do both.

That's what we would like, please.

Wedding present from you.

Thank you.

On the show today.

What two high profile cases this week tell us about what it takes to actually get a conviction in a sexual assault trial.

Plus the stealth marketing genius that has kids paying tens, hundreds and thousands of dollars for a bottle of soft drink.

And the internet has a new girl boss and their name is Kendall Roy.

What's behind the allure of succession's pathetic man?

And what does the show tell us about the surprising status symbols of the super rich?

First, Mia.

In case you missed it, love is dead.

92 year old Rupert Murdoch and 66 year old Ann Leslie Smith have called off their engagement.

It was going to...

It was a real thing.

I know, it was beautiful while it lasted.

It was going to be the fifth marriage for the extremely romantic Mr Murdoch who only got divorced from his fourth wife, Jerry Hall, six months ago.

This is of course great news for women everywhere who are looking for a boost to their superannuation and are still now in with a chance of marrying Rupert Murdoch before he dies.

Jesse, do you wish you were still single?

Yes, I cannot believe this happened.

I thought he was off the market.

Holly, you're unmarried.

I know, this could be my chance to make a play.

We talked a couple of weeks ago on the show about why Murdoch, when he announced the engagement, we had a conversation about why we thought you would get married again for the fifth time at 92 and did that seem a little like unnecessary.

And a very smart friend of mine called us and said, well, called us, messaged us.

She's not a monster.

She called us and said, it's for safety.

If you're super rich and super powerful like Rupert Murdoch, you need to tie this shit down.

You can't have somebody who might be like flappy of mouth about your secrets and your finances and also who might push you for something in court or might go for your money after the relationship ends.

So the reason that you might lock down a relationship in marriage is to actually put legal parameters around it.

So I'd never thought of that because also then they can't testify against you in court.

And if you die, which is like a relatively high chance if you're 92, no offense, it's all down there what you're going to get.

You can't suddenly surprise and go, hey, I'm going for 50% because of all the support I gave you in all those years.

The de facto thing can be a little bit more complicated and unclear.

Especially with such a short time frame.

So do you think that negotiations stalled?

Who would like to speculate? But I imagine, yes, negotiations broke down.

Got it.

It was not clear whether they've actually split up or whether they're just not getting married.

But based on what our friend very smartly suggested, I think probably it's Dunzo.

Maybe the kids also got in the air and were like, come on, dad.

Come on.

Rarely does a convicted rapist walk out of court still free.

But tonight, Jared Hain is at home after being found guilty of sexual assault for the second time in a third trial.

Malka Lyfa is guilty.

We have waited 11 years to say those words.

Yes, it's bittersweet, but she is guilty.

This week we saw two really significant guilty verdicts and they were verdicts we'd been waiting years for.

So the first concerned Malka Lyfa, the 56 year old former school principal of an ultra orthodox Jewish school in Melbourne.

And on Monday, she was found guilty of 18 charges, including rape, indecent assault and sexual penetration of a child aged 16 or 17 against two sisters.

These crimes took place between 2003 and 2007.

And it was 2008 when one of the sisters, her name is Desi, disclosed their abuse for the first time.

So that's 15 years ago.

She did not know at the time that her sister Ellie had experienced the same thing.

So what followed was police statements where the sisters relived their trauma, social fallout in their community, life-affling to Israel, performing a mental illness in an attempt to escape extradition.

A then lengthy extradition process to get her back from Israel, which involved the Israeli and the Australian government and Australian politicians, including former PM Malcolm Turnbull, a private investigator and the Supreme Court.

Lyfa returned to Melbourne 13 years after fleeing and she faced trial and the six week trial culminated in Lyfa being found guilty of those 18 charges.

And she was found not guilty of nine. She was cleared of all charges relating to a third sister named Nicole Meyer.

Then 24 hours later came the Jared Hain verdict.

And if you're wondering, hang on, I thought we'd got that.

Well, it was in court again.

Hain, a former professional rugby league footballer, was found guilty of rape after a third trial jury deliberated for more than a week.

And there's a brilliant article published by the Sydney Morning Herald this week by Jacqueline Maylee.

And the title was Hain verdict answers a brutal question about rape.

And she wrote, it takes three trials, one appeal and aborted jail sentence, almost five years, countless dollars in legal fees and taxpayer funds and unquantifiable amounts of trauma extracted from the victim.

It helps if you have sustained injuries during the assault and if a video of a blood soaked bed has been tended into evidence and also if you have contemporaneous communications expressing your lack of consent to what occurred.

But even then, juries will struggle to reach a unanimous verdict. This will prolong your ordeal.

Hain, who has maintained his innocence throughout, has already said he will appeal the verdict, so it is not over yet anyway.

Holly, this is a historic week and we've sort of been talking about this and I'm really curious as to how you're feeling because I feel exhausted.

Looking back on these trials, I think it's really important we look at what it took to get to this point and what these victims had to endure in order to secure a guilty verdict.

Is this an uncomplicated victory for survivors of rape and sexual assault, do you think?

I don't think there's such a thing as an uncomplicated victory in sexual assault trials because what we hear over and over again from victims of sexual assault is that the trials re-traumatize them.

And they re-traumatize them in cases like the Hain trial three times over for over five years.

So there's no sort of whooping with excitement at this outcome because what it takes to get there for a victim is devastating.

I think what it tells us, and this is not the first story to tell us this and it certainly won't be the last, is we need to reform sexual assault court cases in Australia and in other parts of the world too because they are brutal.

And my biggest fear is that in talking about how brutal they are and the reporting of these kind of cases over and over again deters people.

We already know that only a tiny, tiny, tiny percentage of sexual assaults get reported in the first place.

We know that then a tiny, a tiny percentage of those actually make it as far as charges, about 19%, they think, of cases that get reported to police will actually end up in legal charges.

And then only a tiny percentage of those make it all the way through the process and then only a tiny percentage of those end up in a guilty verdict.

And the thing about those very depressing statistics for victims of sexual crimes is the whole, why would I put myself through that when the chance of an outcome is so tiny is just such a common conversation that you hear among women.

And we all know women, and this was obviously a very large part of me too, who have been sexually assaulted in various degrees, who wouldn't have dreamt of reporting it because they know that the circumstances of that assault would mean the tiny, tiny percentage of a chance that they would actually end up in the verdict of Hain.

So I'm cautious in us kind of talking about it in a, it's just way too hard, don't even bother narrative, because it gives abusers a free kick.

If somebody has committed a sexual assault and they are now facing a jail sentence for it, I am delighted.

But I'm not celebrating what the process of that will have done for the victim involved.

The changes could be made though, Hull, do you think, because the reason it's these cases are so complicated and so harrowing is that unlike many other crimes, it's something that usually happens behind closed doors and it's two people's versions of events.

So there's a lot of discussion about this among people who know a lot better than I do about it, right?

There are some countries in the world and it's been discussed here about special courts for sexual assault, where there is much higher level of education for everybody involved in what a sexual assault victim looks like in inverted commas.

So for example, we are learning more and more and more about the fact that a complainant said the alleged victim of a sexual assault might not report immediately.

The vast majority of people still, if they're surveyed, say, well, that suggests it didn't happen. Why didn't they go to the police straight away? Why didn't they consent to a rape kit? Why didn't they immediately tell everybody?

And what we actually know is it's much more complicated than that. The choices that are made about every detail, if they can't recall every detail, if there are blurry bits, if they get something wrong, well, they must be lying.

When actually there's a lot of research into trauma response that suggests there are a whole lot of reasons, complicated reasons, why you might not remember every detail of all of the things.

We also know that there's usually quite a long space in between an alleged assault and the reporting. And then the case may come to court. It can take years because it's tied up in this very complicated process.

There's also a lot of education they're saying that needs to happen within the legal profession about how aggressive the questioning is of victims, how the burden of having to prove your innocence almost as a victim outweighs having to prove the guilt of the alleged perpetrator.

And although there's a lot of improvements there in terms of the defense lawyers not treating the victim, the alleged victim, like they're lying, that's still at the mercy of the court, like how much the judge wants to hold that line and say, no, you can't talk to them like that.

No, you can't behave like that. It's still very much like an individual decision.

So a lot of people who know a lot more about this than I do are studying ways to make the whole process much less traumatic for the alleged victims.

No one is saying that we should throw out the whole idea of innocent till proven guilty.

But the deterrence to putting yourself through this could be lessened if people paid more attention, listened to it, cared about it more.

Because people look at cases like this and they see the verdict or whatever and they might not go too far beyond the headlines. But the amount of evidence that was required in both of these cases to get anywhere near a guilty verdict was massive.

The burden of proof is massive. And that was the point that Maley made.

But also in the case of Lyfa, there was officers notes and diary entries and all this evidence that was given to police that was lost. So there was police incompetence in there as well, which is obviously inexcusable and can't happen.

There's no solution to this necessarily. But the amount of evidence that you need to present in a case is something that the average victim would not have.

And you would look at it and go, well, a court requires this. The threshold is so high and I simply don't have it.

And even when you do provide it and even when you get a guilty verdict, still there is sledging of, for example, Jared Haynes victim in the media today.

So bad. I don't understand how he can come out of that jury verdict and stand on the court steps and say, I'm 100% innocent because, mate, you just were found guilty.

But also he's saying he's going to appeal so it's not over. Does he go back to jail now?

He will go back to jail most likely. Sentencing hasn't happened yet, obviously. He's very likely to appeal and it will keep going and keep going in three trials. I mean, the toll is relentless.

Hey, my beautiful mum and me are outladders. You've actually got me through a really rough day today. My oldest son has yet again wrecked his shoulder playing rugby and yet again has admitted surgery.

But you've really inspired me this morning. I just went for a walk before I knew I had to take him to hospital.

Thank you for getting me through a really tough day and I'm really looking forward to listen to next episode. I only started listening to you during the pandemic and become a subscriber very quickly.

And I love the extra content. I love you all. And yeah, really love the dress you ordered the wedding to. You look so tacky. But Jesse still stole the show.

You've got 900 micrograms of vitamin A, which is actually the upper limit for a kid that's 7 or 8 years old. They shouldn't have any more than that. And it can be quite toxic.

So for a kid that's 9 to 13 years old, the upper limit is 1700 micrograms. So if they're having two of these bottles a day, they're already at the upper limit. You can start to see impacts around toxicity.

A six year old tried to get me to spend $17 on a bottle of soft drink for them last week. I'm not talking like a big bottle.

I was going to say, was it a cocktail?

I'm not talking like a big family size two liter bottle. I'm talking about like a little like a can of Coke, you know, but not a can of Coke, but like a can of drink, single serve $17.

And was it a stranger six year old or was it just a passerby?

I was walking my friend's dog and child.

Unleashes.

Unleashes, yes. And I told her, because this is my role as, you know how you've got those kids who you're their auntie, even though you're not their auntie, I've got kids in my life like that.

It's my role as her auntie that I buy her a treat when we're out. So I stay at her mom's house when we're in Sydney in the morning.

I said, do you want to walk the dog with me? I'll buy a treat.

Brite, you know, we bribe children.

So good.

That's my job.

Yeah.

And she's like, yes, and get stressed really quickly. And we go and walk the dog.

And I'm thinking hot chocolate, maybe it's like 8am.

Oh, great.

7am, maybe hot chocolate.

She's thinking a bottle of prime hydration, which is the only treat with any status in her primary school.

Now, if you don't know what that is, I'm about to tell you.

But she clearly thought I was a soft touch because she's dragging me by the hand into this convenience store and going, they've got prime.

Holly, they've got prime.

Oh my God, they've got prime.

Can I have a bottle of prime?

Do you know what prime was?

Because I didn't when you started telling me this story.

Well, I did because of my children.

But by the look on the guy who worked in the convenience store's man's face, this happens 14 times an hour, right?

And I was like, I'm not spending $17 on drink.

Don't be ridiculous.

What was in the drink?

Gold?

I'll tell you.

But first of all, she said that the reason all the kids want this drink, my daughter says the same thing, is of course they want to drink the drink,

but really they want the bottle, right?

Because the bottle has very high status.

And so they want to go into school with the bottle and then fill it with water for the rest of the day and swig it.

And then it might get stolen because other kids want it too.

And then along with phones, Pokemon cards and all the other things teachers are now having to police the stealing of a bottle.

And I'll tell you why.

What the hell is prime hydration?

It is a soft drink, an energy drink.

The version being sold in Australia is a hydration drink.

So it's not really like it hasn't got caffeine in it.

So like a sports drink?

Yeah, kind of like a sports drink.

Is it coloured?

Yes.

And they come in different colours, different flavours.

And the bottles are obviously all different colours so that you can collect them.

And it's been invented not by a massive kind of food and beverage brand, but by two YouTubers.

One of whom's name you might know, Logan Paul, he's very famous.

And the other guy, KSI, who is also very famous if you're in that world.

The number one selling energy brand in the world versus prime energy, they're both the US version and they're both 12 ounce cans.

160 calories versus 10 calories.

38 grams of sugar versus 0 grams of sugar.

What?

114 milligrams of caffeine, we got 200 milligrams.

Ain't no way.

And when it comes to electrolytes, 150 milligrams of electrolytes, we doubled it.

300.

Oh my god.

What is?

We're so much f***ing better.

Was Logan Paul the one that was in Australia recently?

Yeah, they both were.

Okay.

So he's a YouTube star.

What does he do on YouTube?

He's what is his box?

I know.

Like they do boxing.

And I mean, what does anyone do on YouTube?

This is one of those influences.

So yeah, he's basically an influencer, but Logan Paul's American, KSI is British.

And between them, they have 47 million followers.

And if we believe their self-reported numbers, since they launched this drink, which is only less than six months ago,

they've made $250 million in retail sales.

Oh my god.

Have they done it with a, like a drink manufacturer?

It seems like it's very much their venture, right?

And they visited Australia together in February and were literally mobbed everywhere they went.

You might have seen those pictures, like massive crowds of kids.

And this is the classic example of how segmented fame and influence is now, because you'd never heard of Prime.

Never.

I had, because obviously my kids are in this space, but it used to be that to launch a new mega soft drink,

you would have a huge advertising campaign, TV ads, movie ads, billboards.

You'd have to pay a lot of money.

No, they have built this.

We do a sponsored read.

Yes.

By completely, in fact, we shouldn't tell anyone this, but completely circumnavigate traditional media

and traditional advertising models to get a massive launch off the ground in months.

And it's pure FOMO that the kids are responding to, right?

They're like, I want Prime because you've got Prime because he's got Prime.

Jesse, had you heard about Prime?

I had.

And that is because I come from a family of teachers and they're all talking about it.

And also I've seen a bit of what I would comfortably call hysteria from traditional media outlets,

which I think contributes to the children wanting the Prime.

Because a lot of people are going, it'll blow them up.

But caffeine, well, no, that's the American one that we don't have here.

Although you can buy it online, which some people are doing.

It's not supposed to be sold to people under age, but you know, on the internet.

The one that is for sale here is basically like coconut water with electrolytes in it.

It does have a disclaimer that says it's not suitable for children under 15, but you know, whatever.

That just makes kids under 15 want it more, right?

I asked my 17 year old daughter and my son, who's 14, except I just realized I texted them while they were at school.

So he hasn't texted back yet, which just made me annoyed. And then I realized he's still at school.

That's actually good. But my daughter texted back.

She said, I've seen videos of kids clawing each other for it online, but that's about it.

She's never had it.

My daughter says everybody wants it. And I said, why have you tasted it?

She said, yes, it tastes like energy drink cough medicine.

And I said, why does everyone want it?

And the very simple answer she just wrote back, because of KSI and Logan Paul, like, duh, that was basically.

And the funny thing about energy drinks that make it different to any other beverage is that the marketing strategy of energy drinks has never been the taste.

Look, at least they're not vaping.

You drink it despite the taste.

There's a great quickie episode today about this. Apparently it has dangerous levels of vitamin A, blah, blah, blah.

But parents know there are dangerous levels of everything and everything they're drinking and you've got to pick your battles, right?

I'm really interested in the marketing campaign.

I'd pick this over edibles for my kids.

So Logan Paul and this guy were mad enemies, right?

Like they were known to be enemies in the YouTube world.

And then they had this live video that looked like it was going to be a fight between.

And they were like, this is going to be a live Instagram fight.

Did you ever watch rock and roll wrestling when you grew up?

It's like WrestleMania and stuff. All of that was confected.

Yes.

It was like characters and then they'd have fights and whatever on YouTube.

It's all just a lot of it is the same.

It's completely.

The best way to get attention and to increase your views is to pick a fight with someone else who's either got more followers than you or like the same.

And it's good for both of you.

So it's genius.

Yes. And they designed it into very purposeful content.

And when they thought this fight was going to take place, it was actually the launch of a product they've made together.

Right?

And so everyone.

So smart.

Capitalism.

But the other thing they've done, which is, well, they've done a few things that are really smart.

The other is viral content, which these people for better or worse are incredibly good at.

So there's one of like a monkey trying to steal the drink and drinking the drink.

And it's a viral TikTok and you cannot pay for that level of virality.

You have to be very clever.

And the other thing is that it's called among people who know more about marketing than me scarcity marketing in that they seem to very purposefully not provided enough.

So that what it means is that when you go to school holding that prime drink, it is an absolute status symbol.

It is hard to get your hands on because you also know that you can reach peak very quickly.

They probably will be honest.

It probably will.

Because the thing I first heard about this a couple of months ago and the conversation that the kids around me were having.

We're like, you can't get it.

Can't get it.

Can't get it.

You have to buy it on the internet.

Oh my God.

I saw a bottle of it going on Amazon for $300 million.

And now it is in the convenience store, but it won't be for long.

And then yeah.

And what is in Coles is stocking it.

And what it means if you're a kid and someone will buy you a drink that expensive.

$17 for a soft drink.

That's how you buy their love.

Remember when loom bands were a thing?

That was a more innocent time.

What a loom band.

Even those little rubber bands that your kids wanted to buy.

They ended up all over the carpet and make little bracelets with.

Yeah.

And you put them and you do like little.

I think this is different though, because the ability to market to an entire generation

privately has never been easier.

So apparently if you are under the age of say 15, most of your media is YouTube.

We're not watching it or TikTok, but that's why most influencers sell something.

Yes.

That's how they monetize their audience.

So they've just completely circumnavigated retailers.

It's all direct to consumer now.

I mean, this drink isn't because you can get it any way they needed to distribute it.

Every influencer has something to sell and good on them.

Like it's just a different form of small business.

It's interesting though, if I'm going down old school Jesse Stevens like despair of capitalism route,

which I can be susceptible to that too.

Children, in my opinion, have never been more conscious of brands and the status that exclusive brands give them.

I do not remember being young and understanding the way that my daughter talks about brands of skincare

that to me are expensive and high brow because of the direct marketing.

No, no.

And you know exactly.

So it used to be there.

So the capitalism has really got their claws.

There have always been there still are very strict rules around advertising to children,

which is hilarious because like that's around commercial television,

but kids aren't watching commercial television.

So the rules don't apply on TikTok and YouTube.

And that's why they're so aware of brands because they're learning about them on the Internet.

If you want to make out loud part of your routine five days a week,

we release segments on Tuesdays and Thursdays just for Mamma Mia subscribers.

To get full access, follow the link in the show notes and a big thank you to all our current subscribers.

It is the best theme song I will give it.

Since what has there been a theme song that stirred me so deeply.

The greatest TV show of all time is back, my friends,

and succession is bringing some really excellent things to talk about whether or not you watch the show.

This week, everyone's talking about stealth wealth and the secret signs that someone is really rich,

as well as the sex appeal of pathetic men.

But before we get to that, Holly Wainwright, you have a confession to make.

I actually was nervous about confessing this to my two smart co-hosts.

I don't like succession.

No, so many people feel that way.

They feel like they can't say it out loud.

I feel you. I see you.

It is very smart and I understand that.

It's very smart.

I've watched succession lots of times.

I'm willing to pay that, Jesse.

I'm not smart enough for succession.

I've watched it many times over the years it's been on.

I've watched a few episodes here, a few episodes there.

It's great. I can appreciate the writing genius.

I can appreciate that the performances are incredible.

Brian Cox, oh my God.

And I love the theme song.

But every single time I watch that show, I fall asleep.

Every single time.

And I think sometimes, oh, is it because it's Friday night and I've had a red wine.

Maybe I'll watch it on a Monday night, like at eight o'clock.

No, fell asleep.

No, Brent went away this weekend because he doesn't like it

because he thinks all the people are evil.

So I was like, I'll watch it without him.

Fell asleep.

I think it's because it's about business and I don't give a shit.

So you should go back and watch a rerun of your Ted Lasso bullshit.

That's invigorating.

I'm not criticizing the show.

Like I can see that it's brilliant.

I think it's a high status show and there's a lot of shame in admitting you don't like it.

I actually agree with you, Holly.

It's one of the only shows I get to the end and then go back and watch it from the beginning again.

Do you think that it's because I haven't paid enough attention so I don't really understand all the new answers?

You've got to just let it go.

Like a lot of the deal stuff, I don't understand, but I'm always like, I'll pick that up in the recaps

because then I go and read all the recaps.

You don't have to understand exactly what they mean.

Try watching it also with a closed captions.

Firstly, that'll make you pay more attention.

And secondly, the dialogue's very fast, but the writing is brilliant.

When you can read it as well as listening to it, it might help you.

I think it's also because I don't like any of them so I don't care about them.

I think it's also, Mia is a business person, right?

And so she understands deals and negotiations and high level business things.

You and I don't.

I have to watch it with Luca to explain to me a lot of it because he will say,

this is a genius scene.

There's a scene in the first episode of this season where he said it is genius

because this is the very opposite of every rule of negotiation.

So this is black comedy.

You can also learn what not to do by watching those Roy children.

I actually want to talk about pathetic men to start with.

A BuzzFeed article came out this week,

headlined Kendall Roy fans highlight the allure of the pathetic man.

It's by a journalist called Kelsey Weekman, Kendall Roy,

who's one of the main characters who is constantly trying to outsmart his father,

which he never does because he's not that smart.

Just know your role and execute.

Well, my worry is that Kendall may come across as too cool and likable.

HQ, the hashtag resistance.

What up? How are we feeling?

Born on the North Bank King of the East Side, 50 years strong.

Now he's rolling in a sick ride.

What do you have against me?

You lack killer instinct.

You're wet. You're green.

You're intellectually insecure.

You're not emotionally strong enough.

You have addiction.

That's enough.

He's always failing and he's always sad and he's always disappointed

with his family and with the world and he kind of just slumps around.

And ladies, doesn't that make you horny?

Well, apparently it does.

It's making a generation of young women very horny because they find

his sad patheticness really sexy and they want to protect him.

Here's a little bit of what that journalist said about her article on a podcast.

The people I talked to for my story were 99% like 18 to 30 year old women.

It's almost like with men who fail, watching them kind of triggers this

like kind of mothering instinct.

There's something about Kendall that I really love in that he is always

trying very hard in always failing.

And I think that that makes him pathetic and it makes me want to protect him.

And I know that that is why so many people refer to him as their baby girl.

I won't say that it's like a feminist for women to kind of returning the tables

and want to protect men, but like also maybe it kind of is like maybe we're

entering the cycle of like kind of reclaiming the urge to protect.

Jesse, why on earth would young women suddenly be thirsting for this very sad man?

I get it. I totally get it.

I reckon it is a counterpoint to toxic masculinity because Kendall Roy,

the genius of the script writing and the acting is that he has afforded

the emotional complexity that is sometimes only afforded to women in drama.

In what way?

There is a thinly veiled vulnerability to him.

Always.

That I find captivating and particularly sad because of how much he hides it.

There is an episode where his father upsets him so much and has a big cry

and he messes up the bathroom, but then he cleans it up straight away

and kind of has to go out and still be Kendall.

And then on his birthday party when his dad doesn't come

and he ends up having this massive birthday party with all these celebrities

cost millions, millions of dollars and he ends up just like going home

and wrapping himself in a blankie.

It's so sad and I get...

But it's not sexy.

There is something...

Or it just feels safe, like you could save him.

Yes, there is something about that vulnerability that makes you feel

as though you could connect with him and that he just needs a really good cuddle.

I don't think it's feminist.

I think that it's probably a bit sick because I think it's a little lost boy

who doesn't also have a great mother figure.

So I wonder if it's like a mothering instinct that comes in from women.

If you don't watch Succession, I heard it roughly being equated to

almost like a Donald Draper.

Right?

There are moments...

But he's sexy.

Don Draper is sexy.

He's hot.

But there are moments in Mad Men where you see his sadness

when everything falls apart and some women are like weird.

I find the pathetic Don Draper way more sexy than the sort of alpha Don Draper.

Because he doesn't feel as dangerous.

Like a pathetic Kendall isn't going to break your heart

because his heart is permanently broken.

And he'll just cry on your shoulder.

I quite like that.

So I obviously, as I've confessed,

maybe this is one of the reasons I don't really love this show

is I don't fancy any of them.

None of them at all.

I love the Colkin guy, Roman.

He's my favourite by a million miles.

Oh my God, so funny, written so brilliantly.

But what I have enjoyed about Succession coming back is the memes

because you don't really have to watch the show to get into that.

And I love, love, loved in the first episode,

the little insights into this uber rich world that most of us have no notion of.

Stealth wealth.

Stealth wealth.

The brilliant episode where Greg comes to Logan's birthday party with a date

who is quickly labelled Little Miss Random Fuck.

And she, Little Miss Random Fuck, has this big burberry bag with her,

which to most of us who don't understand things like,

oh my God, a burberry bag, how fancy.

Here's what Tom says about Cousin Greg's date bag.

So I hear you've made an enormous faux pas

and everyone's laughing up their sleeves about your date.

What? Why?

Why?

Because she's brought a ludicrously capacious bag.

What?

What's even in there?

Huh?

Flat shoes for the subway, her lunch pail.

I mean, Greg, it's monstrous.

It's gargantuan.

You could take a camping.

You could slide it across the floor after a bank job.

The ludicrously capacious bag has become such a thing that now you can buy a tote bag on Etsy

that just says ludicrously, but I can't even say it.

Ludicrously capacious on it.

And it's such one of those classic little insights about the fact that, of course,

properly rich people never carry big bags.

Like, they don't go public transport.

They don't have to carry their gym gear and their laptop driver.

The other thing that was really interesting about it,

and it ties back to your mate Gwyneth's trial last week,

it's ludicrously capacious because it's Burberry.

Now, Burberry is a very high-end label or was.

You know, it had that distinctive check with the red stripe and the beige color in the black,

but it was cool like 10 years ago.

Yes, it's become quite chaff now.

So anything that's like the Louis Vuitton bags with the colors and Murakami ones were cool

and then they're not when they become mainstream.

And so it's one of those things that people who aren't rich would assume

that rich people have lots of flashy designer things.

But in fact, people who are really rich like Gwyneth Paltrow and the Roy's,

the fictional Roy family, they have things that are really expensive,

but you can't tell where they're from.

So it labels like the row that is the label that's designed by the Olsen twins,

Gwyneth's cream cashmere jumper that she wore on the first day of her trial.

That would have probably been the row and that would have been like $14,000.

Oh my God.

But the idea that you can't, if you're rich, you don't need a big bag.

You don't carry anything.

Like it's something that you wouldn't think about unless it's pointed out to you.

You don't need to sign post it.

And that scene in the most recent episode where Shiv is in a business suit

because she always is Kendall Roy has been in the same track suit for two and a half seasons

because he's so depressed with the baseball cap because brown you are so rich.

You don't need to demonstrate it.

And I loved that there were hints at almost commoner behavior.

Like we assume that we're so much flatter in terms of hierarchy and power and privilege.

But at that party, she also tried to get a selfie, which is the most poor people.

And she was kicked out of the party.

I can't enjoy that.

Anyway, out loud as I want to know, am I really the only person who doesn't get succession

and does it as Jesse Stevens and Mia Friedman have both said mean that I'm stupid.

Mia, you've got a recommendation before we go.

I went to the theatre last night.

That's very fast.

And I never do that.

But I went because it was the opening night of a play called Julia.

It's about Julia Gillard and it's starring my childhood best friend, Justine Clark,

who is an incredible actor.

It's a one woman play.

It goes for 90 minutes and there's no interval, which I was stoked about.

And the blurb for it says, 10 years on from Julia Gillard's speech that sent shockwaves around the world,

Julia is an intimate and compelling insight into the person behind the public mask.

I don't know how she did it.

I've never seen anything like it.

It ends with the famous misogyny speech, but it tells the story of Julia Gillard by Julia Gillard

from when she was born.

Oh, wow.

It's just, Justine Clark does the whole thing.

Like sometimes she talks in the voice and other times she doesn't.

And she's, I've never seen anything like it.

Does it feel like, because I've seen a few of these recently, I saw RBG, which was brilliant.

And I was reluctant because I don't like watching things where I feel as though someone's being impersonated.

Did it feel like?

Not for a second.

And you know, I texted Justine this morning because I've met Julia a number of times.

I've interviewed her a number of times.

I really, really like her. I've interviewed her when she's prime minister, when she's not.

And there was something about her essence, Justine captured, but it didn't feel like a, you know, like,

Yeah, no, no, no.

She just sort of embodies her and even her voice, it's only in parts of it that she does her voice.

A lot of it is just her telling her story.

And when she's telling her story to the audience, she doesn't talk in her accent.

It's more just like inside her head.

It's brilliant.

It is on at the upper house until the 20th of May.

I'm not sure if it will then tour, but highly recommend book now.

If this was a different podcast that women host that I know that segment would have been full of clang.

Clang.

Justine.

Oh, they're chatting.

Yeah, my friend Julia Gillard and my friend Justine Clarke.

God, don't I sound insufferable?

Don't clang.

Oh my God, you should have clanged me.

That is all we've got time for.

A Mamma Mia Out Loud today and if you're looking for something else to listen to, don't forget,

we have recorded a special home back just this wedding and you can go to listen to it right now.

You'll have to wait till tomorrow.

Thank you for listening.

The episode is produced by the brilliant Emma Gillespie with audio production by Leah Porges

and assistant production from Susanna Makin.

Goodbye.

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Bye.

Bye.

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Machine-generated transcript that may contain inaccuracies.