Mamamia Out Loud: The Subtle New Way To Rank Famous Women

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Mamma Mia Out Loud!

Hello and welcome to Mamma Mia Out Loud.

It's what women are actually talking about on Friday, the 14th of July.

I'm Holly Wainwright.

I'm Mia Friedman.

And I'm Claire Stevens.

And on the show today, what does the Hollywood actor's strike have to do with you?

Plus, mid.

Is mid an insult?

Yes, I think it is.

It's the new label being given to women and it's not what you think.

And we wrap up our week best and worst from the worst kind of Zoom calls to broken vases and old dogs, but first, Mia.

In case you missed it, there's some very good news for women around our reproductive rights.

There are groundbreaking changes that have been approved to provide Australian women more access to the medical abortion pill.

Now, you might have remembered this as the RU486.

I think that's what it used to be called.

It's now called the medical abortion pill.

Previously, the medication was only allowed to be prescribed by a doctor with specialist certification and then provided by a pharmacist who was registered to dispense the products.

And there weren't very many of those.

Even in cities, it was hard.

And this meant that only around 10% of GPs nationwide were able to prescribe the abortion pill.

Now, this comes as a shock to a lot of women who find themselves wanting an abortion.

This happened to me a number of years ago when I was exploring the idea of maybe having an abortion.

And I just assumed I could go to my GP and get the script because I've had surgical abortions before.

But since that time, the abortion pill had become legal in Australia.

So I just assumed I could get it, you know, script from the doctor.

But that wasn't the case.

But it will be the case in a hot second.

In August, any healthcare practitioner with appropriate qualifications and training, which means all GPs, including nurses, will be able to prescribe the medication and it will be available through every pharmacy.

Will that kind of see the end of abortion clinics, Mia?

Like, does it mean that for a sort of average abortion, if there's such a thing, which is, you know, early and all that stuff, that the majority of women will not have to go to a clinic?

It means that women will have more choices.

So as you say, there are two types of abortions, surgical and medical.

So medical means the abortion pill.

Surgical means that you're put under usually light sedation.

What this means is that you'll have a choice because surgical abortions can still only be performed, you know, that way.

And some women don't want to have a medical abortion.

It's not just like having a pill and getting a period.

It's not like the morning after pill.

I haven't had one, but I know women who have and it can be quite a full on process that happens over a couple of days.

But it does mean that women, particularly in rural and remote regions, will have better access to abortion, which we believe is a really, really good thing.

On Thursday night in London, the cast of one of the most highly anticipated films of the year, Oppenheimer, walked out of the premiere.

That stars like Killian Murphy, Robert Downey Jr., Matt Damon, Emily Blunt, Florence Pugh and Rami Malik.

As they left, director Christopher Nolan told the crowd they were off to write their picket signs because the Screen Actors Guild,

American Federation of Television and Radio Artists Union had just gone on strike.

Now, it is unheard of for the cast of a major film production to walk out of a premiere.

And indeed, this is the first full industry walkout in 63 years.

You may have heard in the news that screenwriters in Hollywood have been striking since May,

and they've been in talks with studios over dwindling pay and the threat of AI taking over their jobs.

I think their picket signs would be better than the ones written by actors, I'm just saying.

Yeah. Oh, great point. But those talks ended without a deal.

So now the Screen Actors Guild, whose president is Fran Drescher, aka the Nanny, has joined them.

We are the victims here. We are being victimized by a very greedy entity.

I am shocked by the way the people that we have been in business with are treating us.

I cannot believe it, quite frankly. This is a moment of history. That is a moment of truth.

If we don't stand tall right now, we are all going to be in trouble.

We are all going to be in jeopardy of being replaced by machines.

Actors like Margot Robbie, Meryl Streep, Jennifer Lawrence have all signed their names

to a letter signalling their willingness to go on strike, and that means no promo.

And Emmy gnomes have just come out, no promoing for the Emmys.

Maybe no Emmys, right? Maybe no Emmys at all.

It was actually really interesting because when the SAG Union, the Actors Guild Union,

signified that they were going to join, and they basically said,

this is when it's going to happen, right? So they gave everyone time.

And there are some very big movies being promoted at the moment.

Barbie, Oppenheimer and Mission Impossible.

And Jennifer Lawrence is one.

And suddenly there was a massive scramble to bring those promotional tours forward,

because you might be wondering, why was Margot Robbie here two weeks ago

so far ahead of the film? And why was there no actual film when she was here?

There was no premiere in Australia.

And that is because suddenly everyone had to scramble to get their promo in before this deadline.

There is some confusion over this news because don't Hollywood Actors make lots of money?

What's the problem? And the problem is a lot has changed in the last few years

about the TV and movie industry, the entire business model.

And it's the studios who are getting an unfair share of the profit,

according to the Actors and the writers.

One of the problems is residuals, which are sort of like royalties,

and streamers pay lower residuals than TV networks.

Basically, when a show does well, it's the studio executives and not the creatives that make money.

Because it used to be that if you were on a really successful show,

lots of different countries and networks around countries would have to buy the syndication rights.

And there was a piece of that for everybody involved, like a reducing, reducing piece of that.

But streaming has obviously done away with the need for that, right?

Exactly. And there's also fear AI will replace both background extras

and post-production jobs such as re-recording dialogue that Actors would normally be paid for.

Holly, are you worried about the impact this might have on movies and shows

that now have to freeze production, like White Loader Season 3?

Well, clearly. I remember the writer's strike that happened in the naughties.

And at the time, there were some shows that I was really obsessed with that just kind of disappeared.

And if you go back and look at, like, for example, Friday Night Lights,

which is a show that lots of people watch retrospectively,

there's a whole season that just doesn't make any sense.

Like, it just sort of stops halfway through. And then when it comes back,

it's got all new characters, all new storylines that you didn't catch up with

because the writer's strike disrupted everything.

And it was kind of a really good reminder for people that these shows get created

by writers, by people who need to get paid, et cetera.

So, clearly, that is what's going to happen again.

But the environment is so different.

There are so many things for us all to be watching at the moment.

We have more content than we know what to do with.

I know that I'm not the only one who keeps a list on my phone of the to-be-watched shows

in the same way that you keep, like, a to-be-read pile by your bed.

And it never ends. It literally never ends.

So, I've seen a lot of interesting analysis of this saying that

the actors and writers don't have the leverage that they used to have

because the good thing about the fact that there are so many different avenues

for creative works to get seen on streaming platforms and all of those things

means there's a lot more of it.

There is just so much more of it.

And if we have that much content, there's less demand.

So, the supply-demand matrix has been knocked off.

Obviously, I'm on the side of the creatives.

Like, of course I am because I'm a creative.

And I think that if the entire business model of an industry has changed,

it's only fair that everybody's level of renumeration gets examined

in that process.

It shouldn't just be one section of the industry

that gets to change the way they make money.

So, of course, that seems reasonable to me,

but I have a feeling it maybe doesn't to you, Mia.

Well, the thing is that a lot of the streamers haven't made money.

There's the idea that they've made billions of dollars.

But in actual fact, as they've built their subscriber bases,

they've actually lost a lot of money in investing in all the writers

and producers and production fees and actors fees

to make all the things that we're watching

and that are available for us to watch.

And I think it's really easy to say actors should be paid more

and writers should be paid more.

But that money has to come from somewhere.

And that somewhere is going to be us, the consumer.

So, the white used to work.

And again, I completely understand why actors feel this way, right?

I'm not saying they're wrong,

but I just think people need to see the whole picture.

When it was Friends, for example, because they were only,

you know, if you're old enough to remember Life Before Streamers,

you were held hostage to whatever Channel 9, Channel 10, Channel 7,

and the ABC and maybe SBS, if you had a tricky aerial,

decided to put on and when they decided to put them on.

And in the off season, they'd run reruns.

And so that meant that there were far fewer programs being made,

which means far fewer people being employed in the entire industry.

It's not just about the writers and the actors.

It's about all the crew, the caterers, the costume designers,

all of those people that work on a show,

whether it's a movie or a TV show.

And because there were far less of them,

the ones that there were, it's again, it's supply and demand,

were paid really, really well.

So, there's not this just infinite pot of money

that's available to give everybody all of it, right?

Now that there are so many opportunities

and streaming has meant amazing things that shows

that would never have been commissioned by the commercial networks

like, for example, Orange is the New Black or a million of the shows.

We've seen diversity.

We've seen all kinds of people get opportunities to work in Hollywood

and get their projects green lit and funded that otherwise wouldn't have.

The downside of that is that the pool doesn't just expand.

If there are 10 new shows coming out this week on my streaming service,

I've got a fixed cost for that streaming service, which is every month.

So, it's supply and demand.

Do we want our streaming services to be more expensive?

Because the money's got to come from somewhere

and if all of those people are paid more,

it'll come from us, the consumer.

But that's always the argument of a certain section, right?

Whether you're talking about hospitality, business,

and whether or not people should get paid more on weekends or whatever it is,

there's always been the argument of like,

well, we will just pass on the cost to you.

That might be the only way to do it,

but there could be other ways to do it.

There could be other ways to do it in terms of the Actors Guild

are certainly pretty mad about some massive bonuses

that some CEOs are being paid of hundreds of millions of dollars, for example.

There are studio executives who are getting a lot of the money

that in the eyes of the writers and the actors

should be shared amongst the creatives

who are the ones making these projects possible.

A bit of a redistribution model rather than the idea

that everybody still has to make the same level of profit at the top.

And I totally get that, and that is not an argument

that is limited or unique to this argument.

You could say that the head of a big mining company

or a big fashion conglomerate

should not be paid so much when the person on the shop floor

or making the clothes is paid minimum wage.

That is a different argument.

In this argument, if we want our streaming services to be ad-free,

which they are, and for us to have all of those choices,

and for all of those people to get opportunities to work...

But I want them to have opportunities to work and get paid for working.

I want them to be able to earn a decent living

and have health insurance and food on the table.

That is not an unreasonable thing to want.

I absolutely understand, but that is not necessarily

what these people are talking about.

So, the olden days where Jennifer Aniston would make

and literally did and does all the cast of Friends and the producers

and the writers and Seinfeld and all of those shows

before streaming came along, they have residual contracts

where they can just sit at home

and still earn tens of millions of dollars every year.

Because they are the most visible and sexy example,

like massive, massive movie stars

who live in multiple mansions and fly in private jets,

we think that is what this argument is about,

and it's actually not.

It's about not the big names, the actors and the writers

who create the shows and star on the shows,

who used to be able to think,

okay, if I'm on a show and it's successful,

then I'm going to get some residual income from that.

It's not going to make me rich.

It's not going to mean that I'm flying around the world on a jet.

It just means that I will get paid something good

for being part of a successful project.

And that's what this argument is really about,

whereas I think it's easy to be distracted

by the movie star element.

There is an alternative model for this,

which I find really interesting and I discovered recently.

So Matt Damon, who walked out of the Oppenheimer premiere,

he is known for being really outspoken about this issue,

and he has actually started his own studio

with his best friend Ben Affleck.

It's called Artist's Equity,

and it seeks to create entrepreneurial partnerships

with filmmakers, and one of their core principles

is to provide performance-based incentives to creators and crew

that allow all participants in the production value chain

to share in profits, and their first project

was the Brilliant Film Air, which I loved.

How does it work? That's so interesting.

And so basically, they've both acknowledged

the business behind filmmaking has fundamentally changed,

and things need to evolve in order for creators

to share in the commercial success of their projects.

And when they say creators, again, they don't just mean actors

or writers, they mean costume designers, editors,

cinematographers, directors, all of whom Matt Damon

and Ben Affleck are on record as saying that they're underpaid.

And so the idea is that you essentially have Artist's Equity,

that you essentially have equity in the project that you're creating,

and they have built an alternative to the model

that sees all the wealth go to the top.

I think it's genius.

There's another point of view that I thought

was really thought-provoking,

and I suspect you're going to disagree with it strongly.

There's a podcast I listened to called Pivot.

Scott Galloway is a brand, strategy,

and digital marketing professor at NYU.

And in a podcast interview on this topic of the actors

and writers' strikes, here's what he had to say.

Labor in the United States is based on supply and demand.

And what I found from a lot of these writers,

similar to what I hear from a lot of tenured professors,

is they think they are very, very precious.

Nobody owes you a living writing for succession

or for SpongeBob SquarePants.

And the reality is, if there is not enough good jobs

to make enough money for you, go elsewhere.

There are three legs of the stool of this type of journalism.

There are newspaper writers, there are writers for television,

and there are authors.

I would speculate that the best compensated over the last 30 years

by far have been writers in Hollywood.

What do you think about that?

Can we introduce Scott to all of the actors in the world?

And there are many, many, many who have lots of other jobs other than acting.

I think this goes to the absolute heart of this, in a way,

which is how much do we value creative roles?

Do you think that creative work and art,

and again, everyone likes to roll their eyes about that,

is a valuable profession?

Or is it an indulgence for a privileged few?

Now, there are plenty of people who believe it's an indulgence

for a privileged few.

But I would argue that creativity and art is absolutely essential.

And I do not think for a second that this is about

entitled, whiny people who are like,

well, maybe you should go and do something else.

Most actors do do other things.

Most authors and writers and TV writers do other things too

until they get to a certain level of success.

But the problem is that bar of success is being moved further and further

out of reach.

So it's almost becoming impossible to make a living this way,

which means fewer and fewer people will want to do it,

which will be bad for all of us,

because art is how we understand the world

and what lets us walk in other people's shoes.

Hello, I need something explained to me.

And I think that my friend Mia Friedman is the woman to do it.

I feel like there are words that you see absolutely nowhere

and then suddenly they're everywhere,

in a week or in a day or in an hour.

Suddenly you're like, oh, everybody's saying this thing

and I missed it.

There were two for me this week, actually.

One of them we're talking about, one of them we're not.

But the one that we're not is Riz.

Do you two understand what Riz means?

Never heard it.

Never heard it.

No.

Riz means is short for charisma.

I've heard it in three different interviews this week

where they've discussed an actor and said,

oh, he's got Riz.

He's got lots of Riz.

Anyway, the other one, the one we are here to talk about is mid.

So context, Margot Robbie, Ozzy Barbie herself,

is everywhere right now, as we were just saying.

But this week a tweet about her got more than 53 million views

because some dude with a laptop posted a picture of her

without makeup on and said,

this is her without makeup, definitely mid.

The internet exploded.

Some people were in agreement.

Other people were furious.

Articles have been written.

But beyond the predictability of some douche on the internet

feeling the need to take a powerful woman down a peg,

I have only one question.

I can guess, but Mia, what is mid and why is it suddenly

all over TikTok, Twitter, all the places?

What mid basically means is it's within the normal limits

of our current beauty standards, right?

So you're not at either end of the extreme.

The writer Phoebe Maltz-Bovey explained it in her newsletter

as you're not so unfortunate looking that this is a setback

in your day-to-day life, but where you could not be hired

as a cocktail waitress, let alone cast as Barbie herself

in a major motion picture, right?

Most women are mid.

Right?

Can we consider ourselves mid?

Can we consider ourselves mid?

Category as you bitches.

Okay, except for Claire, who is exceptionally beautiful.

Now, there's no shame in mid, right?

It means that you're to the liking of some,

but that your physical appearance doesn't inspire envy

in other women.

Is this word always used in this context?

Can other things be mid?

Does it mean kind of basic all around?

It was a bit of a trend on TikTok to like watch a series

or something and be like, yeah, it was just mid.

And then it's kind of evolved now to describe women

because women are objects like TV shows.

So you might also be familiar with the term negging.

Come from the word negative when a man sort of insults a woman

to sort of put her off guard so that she feels insecure

and then he's got a better chance with her.

A certain type of man similarly enjoys using the word mid

in reference to the sort of woman that's historically kind of

referred to as a 10.

So for example, and the reason we're talking about it

on the show today is about men on the internet

who were calling Margot Robbie mid.

There are so many layers of wrong about this.

Yeah.

It's like the milk list at Charlotte and LTW school

and it just like that.

Okay, this is going to sound silly,

but there's a whole brew haha at school

about this milk list that a kid started.

What a milk list for real?

Yes, it's basically milk gate.

For the record, I do think it's wrong that in this day and age

women are still being judged solely for the...

Here it is.

We're number two in three.

But what's interesting is that Phoebe Moldsbowie posits

that mid as a concept couldn't exist in reference to men

because there isn't the same understanding of male beauty

as a source of power.

So if you described an actor, say Ryan Gosling

who plays Ken in the Barbie movie,

if you say he's mid, that means he's mid for you.

It just means that Holly doesn't find him attractive.

It doesn't mean anything to Ryan Gosling's standard in the world.

Because men's appearance doesn't have the same impact

on their ability to wield power.

Correct.

But if you say Margot Robbie is mid,

then what you're critiquing is not just her beauty,

but her power.

So even though female beauty is subjective by beauty standards

like widely accepted beauty standards, it's not.

So I think we can all agree Margot Robbie is not bloody mid.

Okay.

So a man saying that about Margot Robbie is basically saying

she's not all that and there are better women out there.

You say that there's no shame in being mid.

I totally disagree and I believe that the word mid

is totally about invoking shame.

So for me...

Sorry to be clear.

If you call someone mid, it's about invoking shame.

But if you are mid, like in actual fact, which we all are,

we shouldn't be ashamed of being mid.

I think we should reclaim the word mid.

Okay.

I think 100% we need to reclaim it.

However, what I find fascinating about this is that

it's not just negging in the traditional sense where you say

something insulting about somebody, try to embarrass them, whatever.

It's the ranking element.

It's the idea that a man has been surveying women his whole life

and ranking them as he walks down the street

and decided who is where on the ranker.

And then he has the power to just casually say,

oh, by the way, Margot Robbie is mid.

As if that's an empirical measure, not just his personal opinion.

Yes.

And it's this idea that we're being ranked without knowing

and what's really funny and ironic about this

is that we're so against the idea of women being ranked.

It's disgusting.

Yes.

But then we're like, if women were to be ranked,

Robbie wouldn't be mid.

I agree.

I've found it a bit upsetting that all of the pushback on this

has just been like posting pictures of Margot Robbie

in her amazing outfits that she's been wearing this week

and going, are we calling this mid?

The world's gone mad.

And I'm like, actually, the problem is calling anyone mid.

But there's something really visceral about this.

I don't know why, but when I saw this photo of Margot Robbie

and she's not wearing makeup and she's absolutely stunning

and a guy has called her mid.

Gosh, she is.

And then there's all sorts of other things about like,

yeah, she's a six.

And the thing is that she's hot.

But like, I've seen hotter women walking down the street, Marra.

I wonder if you guys have experienced this,

where there is an off-handed remark from a man

that you're in the presence of

and you realize that you've been ranked

and you realize that there is therefore a type of power

you do not hold because you don't look a certain way.

Well, that's true because if Margot Robbie's mid,

the reason that feels visceral,

then what are you?

What a weight.

Where off the scale?

I had a boyfriend who I was madly in love with, right?

Loved him so much, unrequited love mostly

in my late teens, early 20s.

And he once said to me, and there's a famous line

from when Harry met Sally that's like this,

but he once said to me, you know,

I think you're beautiful or whatever, which was lovely.

And he's like, and that's great because, you know,

not everybody would.

Like some people would think you're beautiful

and some people wouldn't because your beauty

is a matter of opinion.

Whereas there are people in the world

about his beauty is not a matter of opinion.

And I just remember furiously agreeing with him

because of course, like he's right.

Of course he's right.

It's right.

It's right.

But that just like stuck to me like glue.

I think that men learn this really early power of the neg,

as you've said, Mia and also of the ranking

because I know that my daughter, who is mid-adolescence

and all her girlfriends, she was telling me

that there's a boy in their class at school

who will just criticize their appearance

for no reason at all.

Like you're to this, you're to that.

And it really upsets them.

And they don't like this guy.

They're not after his approval, but they have clocked

that they are being examined and ranked

and positioned in some kind of list.

And now they know that.

How can they ignore the list?

I mean, the fundamental problem is that our worth

as women is so tied to our physical appearance.

So when somebody says that, I had the same thing, Holly.

I remember being a teenager and a guy would just make comments

about who was hotter than me.

And you obviously feel like you can't argue

because you think he's right and you want to scream.

I think I'm the ugliest toad in the world.

You don't have to tell me this.

But it's to do with the fact that there is so much shame

tied up in how we feel we look.

It is a personal failing.

And we know what it means to be beautiful.

And so when a man dismisses that,

it sort of says the quiet part out loud.

And it speaks to your deepest, deepest insecurities.

And it's interesting that you say that, Holly,

about a teenage boy because I think that's almost

when they haven't developed their self-awareness

not to say exactly what they're thinking.

But this kind of thing happening on social media

that they're still thinking it.

You can't police what people are thinking.

For example, the guy who's talking to Matilda's friends.

I don't think it's like he's saying the quiet part

out loud without knowing.

I think he's realized the power of that weapon.

And if he's feeling inadequate or less than or whatever,

he's realized that a way you can upset girls

and get them to pay attention to you

but also upset them and all those things is to do this.

I don't think there's innocence in it.

I think they've learned the power of it early.

And isn't it also interesting the arrogance in assuming

that any individual man can speak empirically

because when women talk about men,

whether they're good looking or not,

and we do, let's be honest,

we say he's not my type,

whether it's Mark Ruffalo or Harry Styles.

Whereas this idea of men saying mid,

it's about on behalf of all men,

you're mid for everybody.

You're mid empirically.

This is a reminder that you can literally be the beauty standard

and someone will still have something to say.

So like, have some self-love.

She is the beauty standard.

Have some self-love.

But the lesson here is not,

no, no, no, finger waggy.

We do not call Margot Robbie mid.

The lesson is we don't rank women on behalf of their physical appearance.

It makes me feel sick.

And also the lesson here is take the power away from the dude on the Internet.

Like, who cares what he thinks about Margot Robbie?

I'm sure Margot Robbie doesn't give a toss.

Like, I just think let's stop giving them the power.

I wish that we were able to move on and ignore it.

And the reason we can't is because it viscerally makes us feel shame.

She's hot, okay?

Because if you were saying that Hillary's wink isn't hot,

then you're saying I'm not hot

because obviously I'm not as hot as Hillary's wink.

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It's time for our best and worst moments of the week.

I'm going to start with a basic bitch worst, a little bit of context.

I became a grandmother recently, as Out Louders probably know.

I'm trying to stay on the top of the leaderboard as most helpful family member, right?

I'm feeling a little bit competitive with Claire Stevens.

I love how you turn everything into a competition, Mia.

It's very on brand.

My son knows me really well and so he knows how to manipulate me

and use my competitive instincts to keep me being really useful

and not do all the annoying things that I want to do,

which is just come over every day and just sit there holding the baby.

Anyway, so one of the things I did to stay on the top of the leaderboard

was to bring over a lot of spare vases

because everyone knows when you have a new baby,

you often get a lot of flowers, more flowers than you used to getting.

Most people don't have enough vases because they've never had that many flowers before.

That's very thoughtful, Mia.

I did wonder where those vases came from.

They came from me.

That's why I'm on top of the leaderboard.

Anyway, yesterday I was over visiting the baby

and then I said, I'll stay on top of the leaderboard by taking these vases away,

the spare vases that they weren't using.

So Luke was like, I'll help you get to the car.

I'm worried you're going to drop them because they were like vases stacked in each other.

There were about six of them.

And I'm like, no, no, no, I'm not going to drop them.

It's fine. I'll be fine.

And got to my car, got home.

I'd managed to break every one of the vases.

Luckily, the one that didn't break is the outside vase.

So I just had one lovely big vase with a lot of broken glass inside

because, of course, I put it on the back seat of my car

and as soon as I break, not even hard,

they all just rolled and hit the ground and smashed.

Sweetie, you tried to do something good.

No, I think, but I'm still on top of the leaderboard

and I've probably got to up my meds

because that was just a classic ADHD thing of not understanding consequences.

How glass works.

How glass works and not being able to understand risk.

My best of the week is a little bit funny

and I feel like a bit of a dick for saying it.

But this week, I decided that I wasn't going to go ahead

with an Australian story episode

that I have been working with Australian story on for a few weeks

and talking to them about for a couple of months.

And I feel so happy.

I was really excited about it, Mia.

Well, you were going to be on it whole.

I feel so relieved.

I can't tell you they've come to me before.

It sounds like such a wanky thing to say,

but they have come to me before, right?

I think because they've run out of Australian stories to tell.

No, because you're a really important cultural figure in Australia.

So of course you should have an Australian story.

I'm going to say what you're not allowed to say.

That's kind of you.

So they came to me after a particularly bad cancellation

because you know what?

Australian story works like they want to tell.

It's not really about you.

It's a bigger story that they want to tell around a theme.

So they wanted to tell a story about what it's like to be cancelled.

I didn't want to do that.

Then they wanted to tell a story of what it's like to have adult ADHD.

I didn't want to be that because I didn't want to be the adult ADHD person.

And now I think with the Strife TV show coming out,

they decided that maybe they'll do a story about me and Mum Mia.

Like you think, oh my God, Australian story, right?

Like amazing.

Like I love that show and how amazing to be on that show.

And of course my ego was like, yay, that would be great

for Australian story to tell my story.

And all the people that hate me will watch and go,

she's not as bad as we thought she was.

And as we got closer, I felt more and more uncomfortable.

It was like they were going to interview Jason

and they're going to interview Jesse and Luca

and they were going to come and film in the office

and they wanted to come into the house and they wanted old films

and I've been going through old movies.

And I just was feeling more and more sick about it.

And I was meant to do my big interview this week,

this weekend actually.

And it was going to be three hours sitting down, you know,

for that chunky part that they then cut up and interspersed.

Because a lot of it is they just need a lot of vision.

They need a lot of pictures.

I just felt sick about it.

And I just went, I can't.

Why did you feel sick?

Because I mean, everyone just wants to be understood, right?

And in my imagination, people will watch it and go,

she actually isn't the monster that I thought.

But then I realized that's not going to happen

because there will be things that are still annoying about me

or privilege or whatever,

or the cancellation stuff will come out again.

And it's like, I can't control how it's received.

I trusted them totally,

but I can't control how it's going to be received.

And over the last few years, I've just completely retreated.

I don't do interviews.

I'm not on TV.

I don't do all of that stuff.

I just exist within this Mamma Mia ecosystem.

And I just don't want to.

And I just felt so good.

I'm very happy that you feel relieved about it.

But there's a little bit of me that's sad

because I feel like it lets the assholes win.

But they always will.

I know it's not that simple.

And also what's most important is your well-being

and the anxiety around it is not worth it.

But there's a little bit of me that's also like,

but Mia, you're amazing and you've built something amazing

and you should be allowed to tell that story

without worrying that everybody's going to throw rocks at you.

I reckon also what really stopped you from doing it

was the idea of sitting down for three hours.

I said to them, I can't do that.

My worst is that this week I went to a Zoom funeral

and it's actually the third that I've been to this year.

And this isn't my worst because it's like,

poor me going to funerals.

My God, no, it's not that at all.

It's more the life stage that I'm at,

which is that a lot of people who I love very much

are losing their parents and their family members

because I guess that's the age we're getting to.

My parents are losing people very close to them

who've always been in my life.

And the reality of living on the other side of the world

from a lot of people you know and love

is that Zoom funerals are a thing.

And I guess it's good that they're a thing, right?

That maybe pre-pandemic,

I know there were still ways to kind of be included

in events that you weren't there.

And I guess it's really good that we can do that now.

The reason it's a worst is A,

obviously just the sadness of those events

and the people I love are hurting.

But there's something just amazingly poignant and strange

about sitting in your living room on the other side of the world

watching like mourners file in to a church or a crematorium

and take their seats and like you're kind of spying almost

because you're there but you're not there.

And it also feels like the least you could possibly do.

Do you know what I mean?

To join a Zoom call on a Tuesday night or whatever.

It's just a very strange emotional experience.

It's also having been to a couple of Zoom funerals

during COVID as many out louders would have.

It's very weird at the end

when you just switch it off because you're alone at home.

One of the most important part of a funeral ritual is the hugs

and then the telling stories and then they're going for a drink

or a piece of cake and hugging.

Like all of that is so important.

So you must feel really far away

and wanting to give your friends a hug.

That's really hard.

Yeah, it's a very tyranny of distance time.

If you're lucky enough to still have a lot of your loved ones

as you get to midlife, that's great.

But you are entering the season

where there is going to be a lot of loss

and it's just a reality.

My best, this is something out loud

as I'm only allowed to talk about very occasionally

because it's my hashtag niche vegetable content

which literally makes me want to stick pins in her eyes.

I don't blame her.

Like growing vegetables isn't for everybody

but there's a small portion of the audience for whom it is.

Like they like it too.

Today I had a small win when I got back from the dog walk

and I was examining my vegetable bed

and how it's been eaten by God knows what.

But that in the middle of a broccoli plant

that I had long ago decided was not going to work

and I'd posted about it and people had given me advice

and people said, be patient, be patient.

And I was like, I'm not good at being patient.

That's never going to happen.

Was one teeny weeny, hopeful little head of broccoli

finally growing there.

And I got the biggest surge of validation and achievement.

And I can remember having in a very long time

which is ridiculous because as anyone who grows vegetables

knows you end up spending lots of money

on like all the things you need to grow vegetables,

lots of time and energy on trying to make it happen.

And really I could walk into any shop

and buy a head of broccoli for like two dollars.

But you made it.

I'm getting my life lessons from it.

So my best this week is a teeny weeny head of broccoli.

My worst this week is so my dog, Caesar, he is 13 or 14.

Last year before my partner and I went overseas,

we took him to the vet because I noticed

he had a bit of a lump on his shoulder

and they found that it was cancer

and we were told he had three months to live

and we were going away for two months

and we thought, is he not going to be here when we get back?

What are we doing missing two thirds

of the last part of his life?

Anyway, we got back, he's thriving.

It's a year later.

And it's been a year and he's like, what?

I'm not going anywhere.

It's a lot of money to do all the chemo and radiation

and what they do, the dogs.

And he hates the vet and he hates all of that stuff.

So we thought he'd rather just live his best life,

go on his walks, eat his food,

sleep in our bed every now and then

and kind of let him go.

But the really hard thing is knowing when to make that call.

So Caesar, his quality of life is deteriorating.

We take him on his walks.

He likes his walks but he's very slow

and he's getting more and more cranky.

He's got a list of things he hates

and it's getting bigger because things irritate him,

I think maybe because he's in pain.

For now, he's still eating his dinner

but it's really tricky to work out when enough is enough

because they can't tell you.

They can though.

I was worried about this with my dog Harry,

my beloved dog Harry.

It was the same.

You know, he was about 13 or 14

and it just felt like too much of a big decision.

The decision that you would wake up one day and go,

oh, today's the day.

Like I felt like that.

And I was like, how can I possibly ever do that?

I want someone to take that responsibility away from me.

And there was a weekend where something was wrong

and I can't remember what it was.

I took him to the vet

and I was hoping almost that the vet would say it's time.

But she was just like, you know, I did his bloods

and it's not like he's got no time left.

Like he's at the end of his life but it's not like today.

Within 24 hours, it was time

and we knew and we didn't take him back to the vet.

We didn't need to because he just told us

and I can't even explain how stopping eating is one of the things.

But you just look at them

and you can just see that their quality of life is actually gone.

Okay.

You know, it's not that it's reduced

because yes, it will never be chasing a ball again

and we accept that it's deteriorating.

But when every single thing that he used to love doing,

he can't do, then it's gone.

Or if he's in pain.

What freaked me out is that I was kind of relaxed about it

and then a family friend said,

they have no way to tell you if they're in pain.

And I was like, oh my gosh, what if he's sitting there in agony

and he's just so exhausted from the pain

that he can't say anything.

He's not crying or he's not barking.

But I just hope, I hope that there is a really clear line

when that time has come.

It's a real privilege caring for an old dog.

It is.

It is.

I want to hear how out loud is new.

It's the kind of thing they're so wise about.

Tell us in the group, if you've had to make this decision,

how did you know that it was time?

My best this week is we have started working on season two of

But Are You Happy?

But Are You Happy is a podcast where I interview high profile

successful Australians who appear to have it all

and ask about things like failure and jealousy.

And ultimately the idea is that we kind of see the outside

of these people's lives.

They look absolutely perfect.

And the question you always want to ask those people is,

yes, but are you happy?

And what you realise is that the moments you've looked at

from the outside and thought, oh my gosh, they got a magazine

spread.

They must be absolutely stoked.

Or launched a book.

Yes.

There is so much complexity there that you never see.

And so I really wanted to interview for season two,

Matty J, from Bachelorette and Bachelor.

I've met him a few times, absolutely lovely guy,

and find him very, very fascinating.

So I sat down with him on Monday.

The reason I wanted to interview him is because in person,

he's incredibly self-deprecating, does actually get quite vulnerable.

And so I did this interview with him.

And even from kind of the pre-production answers that came

through, I knew how good it was going to be.

Do you send them questions?

Yes.

We asked them to tell us three times the world told them

they'd be happy and they weren't.

And his responses were incredible.

And sitting opposite him and seeing him open up,

he had a bit of a cry.

And it was such a visceral moment of when he was telling

a story about when he really thought something horrible

had happened in his life and that it was his fault.

It was one of my favorite interviews I've ever done.

And it makes me so excited for season two.

Should be coming out in August.

That's awesome.

But really keen for people to hear that interview.

It was bloody excellent.

I've got a very quick record before we go.

I don't know if other out louders have issues with possums

at the moment.

I don't know if it's a seasonal thing.

I don't know if it's where I live.

There's either possums or foxes around in my neighborhood.

And my dogs have been waking up at night and barking.

It's been driving me absolutely nuts.

I've been getting less sleep than certain parents of newborns.

And so I was talking to the vet and saying,

I don't know what to do.

And she suggested putting on white noise when they sleep.

Really?

I just Googled white noise on Spotify.

And I found a 10 hour playlist.

I put the white noise on.

Stop barking.

That's the cutest thing I've ever heard.

So they stopped the dogs barking.

It didn't stop you hearing them.

It stopped the dogs barking.

Yeah, sorry.

It wasn't for us.

It was for them.

Because it meant that they couldn't hear all the little creaks

and rustles and, you know, possum noises or whatever it was

that was making them bark in the night.

So it was a total game changer.

If you've got, I don't know, maybe it'll work for kids as well.

If you've got really light sleepers,

whether they're dogs or children or babies or you,

white noise, highly recommend.

And if you're looking for something else to listen to,

I'm so excited because today we dropped a subscriber episode recap

and just like that.

And I muscled my way onto the team.

And we had the best time recapping episode five,

which if you haven't watched it, I won't be giving any spoilers,

but there is something about a penis pump in there.

We thought it was great.

So Mia, Claire and I recapping it just like that.

There's a link to that episode in the show.

Thank you for listening, my friends,

to Australia's number one news and pop culture show.

This episode was produced by Emily Casillas and Susanna Makin

with audio production by Leah Porges.

And we'll see you on Monday.

Bye.

Bye.

Bye.

Shout out to any Mum, Mia subscribers listening.

If you love the show and want to support us,

subscribing to Mum, Mia is the best way to do so.

There's a link in the episode description.

Machine-generated transcript that may contain inaccuracies.