Mamamia Out Loud: The One Where We Lost A Friend

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Mamma Mia Out Loud!

Hello and welcome to Mamma Mia Out Loud, what women are actually talking about on Monday,

the 30th of October.

I'm Holly Wainwright.

I'm Mia Friedman.

And I'm Claire Stevens.

Out Loud has you've got a little bit of a shorter show today.

We usually bring you three conversations, plus in case you missed it, plus a recommendation.

That's generally our format on Mamma Mia Out Loud.

Today you're going to get two and I'm going to tell you the reason for that, which is

a little controversial.

But I thought pull back the curtain and be honest with you, we're always trying to make

you a better show.

It's just after quarter to six on Monday night and we should have already dropped the show

by now.

But we recorded a segment today about the conflict in Gaza and Israel.

We have said that we weren't going to be talking about that too much on Mamma Mia Out

Loud, partly because we didn't feel like we were best placed to do that, partly because

it is impossible to discuss this issue at the moment without making people furious,

but more importantly than that, without making people exceptionally distressed.

What is happening there is so horrific, so heavy, so serious that we really don't want

to add to the distress that's out there in this conversation.

And I know that some people think that's a bit of a cop out of us and other people are

relieved about it, but it is genuinely what we're thinking about all the time.

Are we adding?

Are we helping?

Is this useful?

And we recorded a segment today that was actually about the strangeness of a conflict like this

playing out on our TikTok feeds and on our Instagram and about the conversations going

on on social media.

And then when we listen back to it tonight, it just didn't feel right.

It's very, very difficult for the three of us to get what we would call the toad right

on this issue.

And we do not want to add any fuel to what is already just such a difficult conversation

for people out there.

There are so many Australians who have family in the region, whether in Israel or Gaza or

in the surrounding countries, and we know how passionately they feel about this.

And if you do want information about the conflict in Gaza, I urge you to listen to The Quickie

tomorrow, which has an episode all about that.

And I also urge you to do, as many of us have been doing, to donate to aid agencies who

are trying to help in the region.

And some of the links are in the show notes.

We're trying to do better for you.

We may try again, but today you have a slightly shorter show.

And that's why, and we're just thinking of you all.

And on the show today, this past weekend, we lost a friend.

So what will be the legacy of the extraordinarily honest Matthew Perry?

And over in a very different world, a very famous woman has a new, very silly product

that she'd like us to buy, and it's going to have you thinking hard about your nipples.

But first, Claire Stevens.

In case you missed it, an Italian woman has just won the court case to end all court cases.

As someone who knows nothing about law or courts, in my mind, this is the kind of petty

stuff that all cases are about.

So a fed up 75 year old woman in Italy has successfully won an eviction order issued

against her two sons, aged 40 and 42, who were still living at home.

Hey, guys, it's like your free ride's over, huh?

Have fun living on the streets.

The woman from Parvia, a city south of Milan, had apparently tried on numerous

occasions to push her sons to live more independent lives, but said that neither

of them wanted to know, as per the local newspaper.

According to the newspaper, the woman was so tired of her two sons never

contributing to household chores or expenses that she ultimately decided to take them to court.

And according to the Guardian, a judge sided with the woman, issued an eviction order

against the men and did initially note that the sons were technically allowed to

live at home due to the obligation of the parent to provide maintenance, but found

in this case, that wasn't justifiable, given they were both over the age of 40.

The men have to move out by December 18, so I think it might be an awkward

Christmas in this particular household.

Hollywood is remembering one of its most beloved sitcom stars as the wise

cracking Chandler Bing.

Perry delighted audiences during the show's ten season run.

His character enduring long after the lights went out at Central Perk.

We learned some sad news over the weekend.

Friends star Matthew Perry died at the age of 54.

And he once said in his memoir that was released last year that if he died,

people might be shocked, but they wouldn't be surprised.

And by that, he was referring to his very well known, certainly among

his family and friends and now everyone since his memoir, his struggle with

addiction, his addiction to alcohol, his addiction to drugs, which he first

began developing at just 14 years old when he had his first sip of alcohol.

By 18, he was drinking every day and it was at 24.

It was only 24 when he was in Friends.

Doesn't that seem preposterously young?

Yes.

That's when he realized that he couldn't control it.

He went to rehab a few times during the filming of Friends.

His addiction just kept escalating.

At one point, he lost a substantial amount of weight.

If you go back and watch different seasons of Friends, sometimes he looked

quite bloated, other times he looked painfully underweight.

He was taking up to 55 painkillers a day and it was an incredibly sad story.

Now, we don't know how he died.

He was found unresponsive.

He reportedly drowned in the jacuzzi in his home.

But there were no signs of drug paraphernalia.

There were no drugs, only prescription drugs found on the premises.

And there was no foul play involved.

Claire, what I found most interesting about this is that you and I, I guess,

different generations, I'm Gen X, you're a millennial.

My daughters are Gen Z and she was the one that told me the news.

She's just 17.

She wasn't even born when Friends was big.

And yet all of her Friends were so upset about it.

It seemed to have touched all generations.

How did it hit for you?

I saw a few posts about how for millennials, the first Friends star dying

is a really scary moment because it's just like those people that were

consistent for a decade of your life that you watched on television

so consistently and so regularly.

And I know that Friends had a resurgence with that younger Gen Z generation.

When it went on to streaming.

Yes.

But there is something about people who were such hallmarks of your

adolescence and young adulthood, one of them dying and 54 is not an age

where you expect somebody to pass away.

Like it's so incredibly young.

Were you surprised when you heard?

Surprised.

And Nish, I went, oh, God.

And then I thought about his memoir and I thought about addiction.

And I thought how sad it is that perhaps it never left him.

You both said about his memoir that it kind of wasn't wrapped in a bow.

It didn't seem like he was looking at his addiction in the past and seeing

it as some distant thing that he had resolved.

It wasn't that at all.

And so I just thought how absolutely tragic that he's lived his almost

his whole life, he's lived 40 years of his life battling with this.

And we don't know the cause of death, but from drowning in Yajakuzi.

It sounds like it could be related and it just made me feel.

We've had a heart attack and people do perfectly healthy people have heart

attacks, but also the wear and tear on his body over that time.

He had lots and lots of health issues as a result of his addiction.

So I listened to that book like that's one of my favourite celebrity memoirs

that I've ever read because of how raw it is.

And I think about it all the time.

It's one of those books, you know, most celebrity memoirs of very sanitised.

They'll have like three titillating anecdotes that they know will get

headlines and the rest of it will be quite clean and tidy and airbrushed.

And his book was absolutely not that.

And I listened to it on audio.

So it's him reading it and he had a little bit of a slur in his voice,

not from addiction, but because all his teeth fell out at one point

and he had to have really extensive dental work as anyone who's watched

the Friends reunion would remember there were quite a lot of cruel

headlines around then about how that had affected his speech.

But he's still very intelligible in that reading his book and it's very affecting

one of the things I thought because him saying, as you said,

Mayor, that if he died, people would be shocked, but not surprised.

That's exactly right.

And what I was thinking about yesterday is I was thinking that his legacy

really is that memoir because he explained addiction in a way

that I think a lot of people do not understand it.

He basically over the course of a lot of pages, he expressed how

all of the young people, the young, famous, rich people around him

were partying in inverted commas, taking drugs, drinking alcohol,

staying up all night, whatever, everybody was doing that.

But that wasn't what it was.

Like his addiction was this deep, dark hole that was completely insatiable

and it didn't matter how much money he had.

It didn't matter how much fame he had.

And he was very honest about how much he wanted fame,

like how he got down on his knees and prayed for it.

I want to be famous.

And yet, just as the stereotype we've heard over and over again

when he got it, didn't help anything.

And he expressed, I always remember this, that his dad also drank a lot.

But he said that one day his dad decided to stop drinking as a much older man.

His wife had told him, like, this is unmanageable.

And his dad had kind of the way he told it, gone out for a walk,

taken a long hard look at himself and come back and gone, OK, I'm done.

And Matthew Perry says in this book, he'd spent millions and millions

and millions of dollars.

He'd been to rehab so many times in Switzerland, in the desert,

in places all over the world, and he couldn't shake it.

And the thing I was thinking about it is what a gift that book is.

But then also the flip side of being that open and vulnerable

is that's the story everybody's telling.

That's really good in that I know that he was personally,

he said so proud that people would come up to him and say,

I need to help to stop drinking.

Can you help me? And that was his life's work.

But also when you're honest about something so fundamental,

it kind of eclipses everything else about you.

He wrote in his memoir that when I die, I know people talk about friends,

friends, friends, and I'm glad of that.

Happy I've done some solid work as an actor.

But he went on to say, I hope that what is also written in those sentences

is about the work I've done around addiction and the way that I've helped people.

Which it will.

I think in a way, it's quite beautiful that he got to write that memoir

because that is clearly what gave his life meaning to him was the idea

that he could share this story and he could say to people.

The language in it, I think was really important because the language was

this is a disease and it's not your fault.

That's something a lot of people with addiction need to hear.

Don't have this shame with you that this is your fault and you've done this

and you're weak.

This is something that some people just struggle with

and it's extremely difficult to overcome.

Do you think that there are famous people like that anymore?

What do you mean?

You mean that level of fame that everybody knows?

We talk a lot about the way fame has become fragmented with streaming channels

and digital media.

Friends seems to have transcended all the generations in a way that other shows

of that time haven't.

Like if you look at Sex and the City, millennials know it.

I mean, it certainly hasn't extended younger than millennials.

And yet friends did.

And I find that so interesting because one of the criticisms of friends

being looked at through a current lens is it was of its time.

There were phobic jokes.

There were transphobic jokes.

There was a whole bunch of stuff that wouldn't happen now.

And so it's interesting that a younger generation who are considered generally

to be so much more, I'm going to say woke, but I don't mean that as a pejorative term,

are really into it and they can just almost park that and just watch it.

Why do you think that is?

I think there's something really mindless and innocent about it,

that it sort of asks you to suspend all of those values and like in a way that.

Have you gone back and watched it?

Because I haven't.

Every now and then I catch an episode and my reaction to watching it is like,

that's the only way I can kind of describe it.

But I think that there's something about this might sound horrible.

But I think when it's a female led show like Sex and the City,

we have much higher moral standards for what it should be and what it should reflect.

And when it's more of a gender neutral show like Friends or Seinfeld,

yes, we let it get away with more.

And also, let's be honest, like, although Friends had some,

I guess what you might call tackled serious issues in a way,

like infertility or something, it was not an issues show.

Whereas Sex and the City always an issues show like issues about sex and relationships.

But it was boundary pushing in its content.

Whereas Friends in a way is an issues show in hindsight,

because we're like Chandler's father was transgender.

And the way that was handled is so confronting now.

But at the time, it wasn't like we're tackling the transgender issue.

You know what I mean?

Like it was meant to be mindlessly entertaining through a very particular lens.

I don't think people required as much of it as they did a show like Sex and the City,

where they're like, oh, this is telling us who we are.

Do you think people would feel nostalgic if like David Schwimmer or Matt LeBlanc had died?

I think so.

But I think that there's something particularly moving about this story

and just the fact that it was so recent that he told his story.

It was almost exactly a year ago.

And for a lot of people, it was a bit of a shock.

Like, of course, there were tabloid stories

and you would see in the Friends reunion where he was talking bit funny

and there were headlines about that.

But for a lot of people who weren't, you know, super invested in Matthew Perry,

specifically, his memoir was the moment where you went, oh, my God,

he's been experiencing this the entire time he has been in the public eye.

And the moment he was at peak fame was a moment where he was he struggling with this addiction.

So I think there's something incredibly uncomfortable about this story.

And I think it really kind of struck a chord with people yesterday

that you're trying to resolve the fact that this loveable, light character

that we all grew up with was not that light.

He was very cynical and sarcastic.

He had an edge more than any other character on that show.

Yes, but like that really dry sense of humor, it really makes you wrestle

with the fact that we're reminded of over and over and over again,

that you never know what's happening behind closed doors.

Out loud as we recorded at the time, a recap episode,

or we spoke about the memoir and it was for subs,

but we have taken it out from behind the paywall and put it in your feed.

If you want to listen to Holly, Jesse and I talk about Matthew Perry's memoir

and a bit more about what's in it, we'll link it in the show notes.

Or we just dropped it yesterday so you can just scroll back a little bit and find it.

OK, shall we get some coffee?

Sure. Where?

Mumma Mia, out loud.

If you want to make Mumma Mia out loud part of your routine five days a week,

we release segments on Tuesdays and Thursdays just for Mumma Mia subscribers.

To get full access, follow the link in the show notes

and a big thank you to all our current subscribers.

On Saturday, I was scrolling through Instagram when I saw a video posted by Kim Kardashian.

It opened in a way very few of her videos open.

The earth's temperature is getting hotter and hotter.

The sea levels are rising.

The ice sheets are shrinking and I'm not a scientist,

but I do believe everyone can use their skill set to do their part.

Oh, my God, I thought Kim is becoming an advocate for climate change.

What will one of the most socially and economically powerful women in the world

do to solve this problem?

She might actually have some power, but no.

So she's introduced a brand new bra with a built-in nipple.

So no matter how hot it is, you'll always look cold.

Some days are hard, but these nipples are harder.

And unlike the icebergs,

these aren't going anywhere.

Now, I thought this might just be a skit because I thought that's actually very

clever if that is just a skit, because it's a great joke about capitalism and

climate change and how capitalism is going to have to keep solving the very

short-term problems that come with climate change.

But no, no, no, no, no, no.

This is a promo video for an actual skims product, which launches on October 31.

It's received mixed reactions on social media with many people asking,

is this a joke?

And saying the product is strange and unnecessary.

Costs 120 bucks.

Yeah, 120 bucks, but there are also comments that say, as a breast cancer

survivor, I thank you so much.

Skims will actually donate 10 percent of sales from the ultimate nipple bra as

a one-time donation to an organization called One Percent for the Planet,

a global network with thousands of businesses and environmental

organisations working together to support people and the planet.

That's clever, because I was going to say the only flaw in this extraordinary

marketing exercise, they should have done a donation.

Yeah, so it's quite interesting.

The women's are fricking genius.

I know, guys, we were messaging each other on the weekend about this,

absolutely not knowing how to feel.

What do we think?

When I sent it in our group chat, I was like, I don't know how to process

the world at the moment, because there's all of the unmitigated horror

we were just discussing.

And then you scroll and then there's Kim Kardashian with her nipples.

And you're just like, how can this be the world?

And it is the world, right?

Like it's mind boggling.

I didn't know that nipples were back.

Did you know that nipples were back, Mia?

I didn't know they went away.

I did that thing where I was also scrolling and saw it and didn't know

what to think of it and then realised pretty quickly that this was for real

because it wasn't April Fool's Day.

I also read those comments and the women saying thank you and it was mostly

positive, I have to say what I read.

And then I was doing my thing where I scan my feminist radar because you

always have to when it's anything Kardashian.

And I sort of like half heartedly went, OK, turn on the scanner.

Right, well, so now women have to look permanently aroused, even when we're not.

Is that a win?

And then I just thought, too tired.

I learnt a lot of things from this product.

So nipples are back because think about how long everybody's been wearing nipple pasties,

like pasties, pasties, what do we call those pasties to cover their nipples?

I have been known to put a cotton pad in my bra to stop the nipple.

And here's another thing to thank Kim Kardashian for.

One of the reasons for that is because when you're over a certain age,

your nipple isn't where it once was sometimes.

It can be a live giveaway for the fact that things are on the slide.

So if you wear this bra, it puts the nipple back where society has deemed it's meant to be.

Do you know when you get a breast lift, what they do is they take your nipple off

and then reattach it up higher where they think it should go.

Correct. So I learned where society thinks our nipples should be in relation to my own.

I also learned exactly what the attractive nipples meant to be

because I was thinking about the testing of this product

and they would have had to decide what the exact size was.

And I was a little bit surprised to be honest that they weren't a bit bigger,

but I was like, oh, OK, so that's the size of nipple that we're deeming attractive.

And then came into work and found out that all the cool young people I work with

really wanted one. Here's a few of them talking about it.

Back in the day, we used to call it smuggling peas,

like when you accidentally were cold and showing your nipples through a bra,

I would feel very self conscious, permanently smuggling peas.

So that's a no.

First thought was I would wear the hell out of that bra.

I love a good, hard knit moment.

But then the body positive voices in my head came through and reminded me

that I'm supposed to love my puffy nips.

Oh, my God, I'm obsessed with it.

Me and all my friends want to run the wait list already.

Makes you look like you got a bird job, but you haven't got a bird job.

I'm all for it.

And the third thing I thought was Samantha Jones.

Remember her fake nipples?

Ew, what are those?

Fake nipples.

And why are we carrying them around?

They were sent to me as some kind of promotional thing.

Really? Is there a nipple council?

Are nipples getting a bad rap?

Nipples are huge right now.

Oh, yeah.

Slip them in a bra and sex in the city and did the lap of the bar

and all the men looked at her and she was like, yes.

As somebody who lives near the beach,

I have been acutely aware that nipples are back in.

So people wear like not only your cosies,

you're just you're not conscious at all about nipples being out.

Really? Like out of your cosies?

Like accidentally or?

No, no, no, no.

As in like there's no padding and so you can full see nip.

But also all the young people are wearing tops

that are quite thin and then no bra.

So I'm seeing nipples all over the place and I think.

Free the nipple.

God damn if I look like that, I'd be wearing tops.

Like, I have to say, I'm very jealous of the people who can get away with that.

Your nips are about to have a big job to do.

Yeah, they're not petite and cute anymore.

But it's all the cool people in the office who are like, no, no, no,

I will be buying this and I really want to see how it looks.

And the bra itself looks amazing.

Well, it looks too padded for me.

OK, interesting. Or is that the point?

That's the point.

But I have a question, one more question about this

that maybe your feminist radar can answer.

If I'm wearing and when I say I, I want to assure everybody won't be me.

If one was wearing the Kim Kardashian nipple bra to the bar,

is it then permissible for everybody to look at your nips

because you have deliberately made them visible?

We're just putting women's nipples on the table for conversation.

And I don't mean between each other, but they're not called headlights.

You know, when people say your headlights are on,

it's a sign of sexual arousal.

It's not like, oh, you might be cold.

It's like, oh, you're turned on because that's what women's nipples do

when they're sexually aroused.

And so. I know, no, no, no one's making me wear one,

but it's more like, right, so now nipples are a thing.

It's like when people started bleaching their anuses.

Yeah. And it was like, great.

Now, that's a thing everyone has to think about.

Yes. And I have to say, though,

this is a testament to Kim Kardashian's absolute genius,

because the more I think about this,

the more it is problematic, the more it is like, hold on,

out of all the things I was worrying about with my body,

I thought my nipples, at least I could hide and not think about

and have them not be on display.

And she has the power to make this far more mainstream than it already is.

But the marketing genius of doing it through the lens of humor,

as soon as social justice, I mean, you know, planetary justice,

as soon as it's presented like that, your anger goes.

I couldn't feel angry because I went, ha, ha, ha, Kim.

For the first five seconds of the video, I was like,

nipples are really hard.

Is anyone going to mention that?

I have a recommendation for you guys,

and it's one that we really need at the moment

when things are a bit dark and we just want to be silly

and not think about anything too serious.

You know how all of us, and don't lie, you two,

have a voice for our dogs slash dogs

and an entire backstory slash personality.

So my dog sees a full voice.

Mia, I think you told me this, that actually

you recycle the voice throughout life.

So it's your dog and then it becomes your baby.

And then it becomes your next job.

You kind of just have one voice.

I forgot that I told you that.

We've got the same voice that we have for baby Matilda

that I have for Tuna.

Caesar has a very distinctive voice

and strangely, Luna actually has the same voice.

I bet Kate Blanchett has different voices for her babies and pets.

People who are very, very creative.

Well, often that voice for your dog, it's very private

and you don't you don't share it.

It's weird. Every now and then I kind of break the fourth wall

and I'll be talking to a friend and I put on Caesar's voice

and they're like, oh, OK, that's a bit odd.

But there is a dog on Instagram

that has a distinctive voice and backstory

that I've been following for literally almost five years.

His name is Tatum and his Instagram account is high.

This is Tatum and he was rescued from literal starvation.

And now he has the greatest life and he has the most distinctive

personality and all these idiosyncrasies.

And his voice is just so well established.

He loves his mum.

He loves watermelon.

You know everything about Tatum from watching him.

And it is the only thing that I can look at in any dark moment.

I'm telling you, I'm going to tell you now.

Why are you doing, mum?

You're not qualified to do that.

I feel like you're going to get shocked.

I keep my distance.

Keep my distance. I'm over here.

Are you going to help me?

I can't help you.

You can help me.

Nervous. Nervous.

Why? Don't get shocked, mum.

That happened to somebody on the Spider-Man movie.

Uh-oh. Uh-oh.

What's happening?

See, I told you, I'm executed.

Yep.

You learn about all the different family dynamics.

They had a cat for a while and so it would be quite taxing

that you always had to keep an eye on the cat.

I just...

So it's funny.

It's like following a funny little series.

OK, I'm into it.

And it makes me so happy.

Tatum's now like written a book.

Like it's just so stupid.

Like and he loves his mum.

He's upset when his mum goes to work.

He don't know what to do.

It's just brilliant.

And I just want everybody to look at it and send me videos

because it gives me so much joy.

After that bit of diversion,

if you're looking for something else to listen to,

we did a subscriber episode last week

where we called an emergency meeting

to talk about Brittany's new memoir.

Now over the weekend, she's announced randomly

that she's going to be doing another one,

but none of her Instagram posts make sense.

I'm becoming more and more disturbed,

honestly, by the whole thing.

I don't understand how this book was written

and we talk about that a lot.

We'll put a link in the show notes.

Thank you for listening to Australia's

number one news and pop culture show.

This episode was produced by Emily Gazillis.

The assistant producer is Tali Blackman

with audio production by Leah Porges.

And we'll talk to you tomorrow.

Bye bye.

Bye bye.

Shout out to any Mamma Mia subscribers listening.

If you love the show and you want to support us,

subscribing to Mamma Mia is the very best way to do it.

There's a link in the episode description.

Machine-generated transcript that may contain inaccuracies.