Mamamia Out Loud: The Mental Load Of Organising A Threesome

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Hello and welcome to Mamma Mia Out Loud,

what women are talking about on Wednesday, May the 17th.

I'm Holly Wainwright.

I'm Mia Freedman.

And I'm Elfie Scott, an executive editor here at Mamma Mia,

filling in for Jessie, who's still poorly.

Bless her, we're sending her love.

And on the show today, what an 81 year old in a swimsuit on a cover of a magazine tells us about beauty,

money and marketing, plus the mental load of organizing a threesome.

And it's Johnny Depp's big comeback really about Johnny Depp.

But first, in case you missed it in breaking fashion news, jeans and a nice top are over.

This is catastrophic for every gen X woman like Holly,

who's always used this as they're going out uniform.

Jeans and a nice top has been reinvented by Gen Z.

And now it's all about fun pants and a plain top.

Yes.

According to this viral TikTok.

I've had a revelation in going out fashion, specifically for us millennial women.

And that is the old jeans and a cute top, a staple, a tried and true,

sometimes also known as jeans and a going out top.

The Gen Z replacements are a top and fun pants.

And I know this because I texted my very cool Gen Z friend today

and I asked her what she's wearing out tonight.

She said, I usually just do a fun pants and a tank top.

A fun pant and a tank top.

When I think about my daughter who's 17 and her friends, it's true.

They wear fun pants or they will sometimes wear ripped jeans and a tank top.

So fun pants are like they might have a kooky print or they might be

an interesting fabric or they have something about them.

Correct.

This is no, I'm a short woman.

I do not want them looking down there.

I want them looking up here.

That's why you wear an interesting shirt or a going out top back in my day.

This is not going to work for me.

Can I reject this?

Can I opt out because I'm too old?

Alfie, have you got any feelings?

Well, I think you look fabulous, Holly.

So I think you should continue dressing as you do.

I would also question why this chick is the authority on fashion.

That's another question for this entire segment.

But then I would also say this is like that thing where Gen Z were like,

you know, high-waisted jeans are out.

High-waisted jeans as well.

Skinny jeans were out.

It will never be out.

It works.

We're not getting rid of it.

I reject low-waisted jeans and I reject this TikTok.

You do, you boo.

In January, end of January,

you have to be ready to pose for the cover of Sports Illustrated.

And, you know, that was a kind of a request that I've never had before.

And to be on the cover at my age was a challenge.

I think I met the challenge.

In what way?

Well, I didn't starve myself,

but I didn't eat any bread or pasta for a couple of months.

I went to Pilates every other day.

But it was kind of fun.

This week, television personality Cook and ex-con Martha Stewart became the oldest.

Yes, I did do it.

The oldest cover model in Sports Illustrated's history.

She was photographed for the magazine Swimsuit Issue alongside three other cover models,

including Megan Foxx, Brooks Nader and Kim Petrus.

You've probably seen the images by now,

but if you haven't, she was shot in one-piece swimsuits in the Bahamas

and the cover shot is a shot of her in a low-cut white swimsuit looking windswept and glorious.

Stewart rose to fame in the 80s as the writer of cookbooks and a host of cooking TV shows.

And since then, she's written 99 cookbooks, launched a lifestyle magazine,

as well as lines of clothing, cooking and home products.

So when she was asked in an interview about the shoot by The New York Times

about specifically Madonna, who is 64,

she's been criticized for undergoing cosmetic procedures to try and keep looking young.

Stewart said that Madonna as a performer needs to keep reinventing herself.

And there's a big difference between her and Madonna.

She is wearing pointy bras and weird clothes.

I'm teaching you how to roll dough.

She also wrote on Instagram about the shoot,

my motto has always been when you're through changing, you're through.

So I thought, why not be up for this opportunity of a lifetime?

I hope this cover inspires you to challenge yourself to try new things,

no matter what stage of life you are in.

Yay, Martha.

Yeah, okay.

So I feel like I want to throw this onto the table now to see who wants to pick it up

because I know that there is going to be some fierce opposition around this.

Holly.

Go.

Okay.

I am here for it.

Obviously, Martha Stewart in herself, a bit of a problematic figure.

Not a big Martha fan.

Why is she problematic?

She went to jail for insider training.

She didn't have time.

She has been accused of racism.

She's kind of tone deaf in many ways.

She's kind of a Gwyneth before Gwyneth, right?

So I'm not necessarily here for Martha.

I won't necessarily be cheering in the streets for her.

But what I am here for is women refusing to go quietly.

I am a big fan of that, right?

Because the way that culture likes women over 50, 60, 70, certainly 80 is cute.

We want them to be cute.

We want them to be small, like a helpless little baby.

And just sit around doing cute things.

Maybe a bit of free childcare would be good.

But otherwise, we'd like them to go quietly, maybe do a bit of knitting.

And so I have admiration for women who refuse to follow that narrative.

So whatever we think of Madonna, she is just doing what Madonna has always done.

So she's refusing to stop doing what she's always done.

And then a woman like Martha is going,

I'm going to try and do something I've never done.

Because she wasn't posing in a swim as when she was 40.

Or 30, or 20, or 50.

So she's going, you know what?

They asked me, we all know it's a bit of a token ask.

Like the Sports Illustrated swimsuit cover has to have some stunt casting

every year or it doesn't get headlines.

There used to just be lots of very skinny white blonde ladies.

Then they started to diversify into different skin tones

and then diversify into some plus size.

And this time they've got Martha and they've also got a trans woman, Kim Petrus.

So I get that it's stunt casting, but in terms of Martha,

I'm here for it because I'm here for the older women going,

bugger you, I will not go quietly.

But the question is, is the only way to be loud and assertive

and take up space to be sexy?

Well, yeah, that's exactly it.

Yeah, it is because there's a lot of ways to not go quietly

and I reject the two choices you've given me to be a cute nana

or to try to make myself look like I'm 25.

I didn't give you two choices.

I said that's one of them.

Doing something you've never done before.

So whatever it is, it's one of them.

It's not very fresh conforming to oppressive beauty standards.

Like she might not have ever done it before,

but neither is Angela Merkel or Julia Gillard or Hillary Clinton.

I see what you mean in terms of it's nice to not put someone in a box

and women can be all kinds of things,

but the attention and the validation that you get

for being objectified at any age,

that's not interesting or clever or surprising or new,

or I would argue good for women.

And so I know that's a big burden to put on everyone.

I know, but don't tell me that it's a great thing.

Like it's fine if Martha wants to do it,

but don't say this is such a great thing for women.

This is such a great thing for older women.

Because what it is, it's not just about Martha,

it's about looking this way if you're rich.

So it's not even about surgery.

So are we going to have a situation where poor women who are 80

look a certain way and wealthy women like Martha

who can afford every piece of cosmetic intervention

or the Kardashians, every bit of hair and makeup

and every bit of dietary, whatever,

they're going to look a whole different way.

And are we going to have two different classes?

But we already do and we always have.

Women who have resources towards leisure,

maybe a personal trainer, maybe time to go to the gym

and then never mind all the skincare, the facialist.

This is not new and it's not on Martha Stewart, right?

So the glaring issue here for me is the Martha Stewart

doesn't look like that.

Like she doesn't look like that in real life, actually.

If you see her moving around,

most 81-year-olds don't look like that.

And I totally get your point about the privilege

of this situation, but that's always been true.

And it's true for every woman on the cover of anything

and nearly all the high-profile women

that you've just mentioned, too.

I'm still just here for the idea that, like,

you can do whatever you want whenever you want.

I've got a question.

I think often young women, like often when I'll get

my cranky pants on about these things

and I'm like, stop telling me this is good for women.

And back to the Super Bowl, how I felt about everyone was going,

it's so great, JLo in the Super Bowl, women over 40.

I was saying it's good for women,

because I didn't say it's good for women.

I said I'm really here for Martha doing this.

No, no, but there is argument.

I don't believe that everything that every woman does

have to be good for women.

There's an argument to be made that it is good for women

in terms of more women get to be objectified

on the front of magazines.

That's a win.

Alfie, my question for you, as a woman

who is a generation younger than we are,

I suspect that often younger women will look at these things

and go, yay, I think it's great,

because your biggest fear, maybe not your personally,

but the fear of younger women is that, oh, no,

I'm going to get invisible.

I will be an old Betty White kind of character

as I get older.

And, oh, look, I can be sexy at every age.

Is that something that excites you?

No, I don't feel anything about this, to be honest.

I'm excited to age because I know that I will turn

into a small Asian witch, basically.

And that's the exact plan that I try on take.

I want to be a quirky little woman.

But you know what?

I just think that Martha Stewart does not represent women.

And that's the point of this at the end of the day.

She cannot represent women because she's so wealthy.

She's worth, like, $400 million.

She's so famous.

I just think that she's not there to represent women in the 80s.

She's there to represent Martha Stewart in her 80s.

100%.

So it just doesn't even make sense to try

and generalize what she's doing

and apply it to anybody else's life.

But I think that we do that when it comes

to any of these big cultural moments.

And whether you like it or hate it, and clearly,

I've not really ever been a fan of it,

the sports illustrated issue and who they choose

is a cultural moment.

So they're trying to remain relevant by expanding that bench.

Because that's seen as an arbiter,

just like being on the cover of Vogue magazine

or at one point being a Victoria's Secret model.

That was the signpost of the current beauty standard.

Sports Illustrated.

And they're trying to obviously be relevant

by getting publicity and it's working.

And I also would say that I hope,

well, I know if I'm still around when I'm 80,

I will be wearing a bloody swimsuit.

Like, I know so many women who tip over a certain age

and they're like, I don't go in the pool.

I don't go in the ocean.

I let my kids swim, but I won't swim.

Oh, that's terrible.

Because they are so afraid of being seen in a swimsuit.

And so like, fuck.

Martha is not in a G string.

Martha is not in nipple pasties and a G string.

In fact, she has embraced the friend

of every ordinary woman over the age of 25,

which is the cover-up.

And the one piece.

The slightly diaphanous cover-up that you tie around your waist

right up to the point that you get in the pool

and then you drop it and jump in really fast.

Like, so, you know.

The whole aging thing is so boring.

Don't think about aging.

Think about successful living.

Think about...

Welcome to Out Loud.

Should I do the knock and invite her on?

Well, I am.

I mean, right?

Yeah.

Yeah.

Okay.

So I read a column this week by a journalist,

an American journalist called Pamela Druckermann,

who bought her husband a threesome for his 40th.

She's written a book and it's an extract from it

and it's a very funny chapter about what that looked like.

So she said that, first of all, she thought he was 40.

He would like a Rolex.

Jesus.

Oh, that's expensive.

Tells you a lot about their particular social class.

But she decided not to buy him a Rolex

because they're expensive.

She asked him what he'd wanted and he said he wanted a threesome.

Then she explains how she went about that.

Very funny stories about trying to find the right person for it.

She went on a date one day with a woman

who then turned out was not the right woman

because she was a bit insecure and she thought,

oh, she's going to get emotionally involved.

She went home that night and told her husband about her date.

He said, thanks for taking care of that

without looking up from his computer.

It's what he says when I've waited in all morning for the plumber.

She wrote, planning the threesome has become another

of the administrative tasks I do in our marriage.

Anyway, she writes beautifully about the hunt.

She says that when they finally find the woman,

who they're going to have the threesome with,

does she put an ad out?

So she starts by considering friends and acquaintances

and then they rule that out.

And then she goes on a website.

So it's like one of those finding swingers websites.

And that's how they find the woman in the end.

And she says, interestingly,

that when she has lunch because she has two dates with this woman,

just her with the woman before they get to the threesome bit,

the woman is much more interested in her than her husband.

She says, when I show her a picture of my husband,

she just glances at it.

For her, this is more about the two of us.

We part warmly with a chaste double cheek kiss

and I wait several days before sending her a note explaining

she's been in my thoughts and that I found her charming in every way.

The threesome happens.

She writes about her surprises from the threesome.

And she says her second surprise is that a threesome is so, well, sexual.

I'd focus so much on the organization and the catering

because she said that on the way to the threesome,

she picked up sandwiches.

That's so nice. She's so thoughtful.

She said, I've focused so much on the organization and the catering.

I'd almost forgotten that we were going to be naked.

And then she said, my third surprise is that when you're detail-oriented like me,

threesome's are quite confusing.

You quickly lose track of who's who and there's a lot of ambiguous moaning.

She says, after about 40 minutes, I've had enough.

I wonder whether I might check my email.

So many holes.

Oh, God, the logistics.

A lot of options. How do you arrange?

Things can go.

So this is not uncommon as it turns out.

There's a whole area of sex work that specializes in threesome

for heterosexual couples as a treat, as a birthday present, as the anniversary.

So what do we think? Is this a great birthday present, Elsie?

I think it's fine.

I think it's nice that she went to the effort of organizing it

like you would organize any birthday present.

You know, like if you're going to put on a surprise party,

I imagine it takes about the same amount of work.

So true.

So I think it's nice.

My issue, and I don't know if this is coming from like a deeply conservative part of me,

but my issue with it is that this is a birthday present, right?

Like if it was something that they both mutually enjoyed and wanted to explore

and they just did that as part of their everyday normal lives,

I think that that would be a different thing.

But the fact that it's a birthday present for him makes me a little bit,

I don't know, I bristle a little bit about.

A bit picky.

Yeah, especially because she explains in the column

that she wasn't actually that sexually attracted to the woman either.

Like she liked her and she found her charming, as you say.

She also said, I realized I didn't like her parts because they were very much

like my parts and the reason that I like men,

I realized is because of the difference between our bodies.

So, I mean, I think it's fine.

I think it's a nice thing to do.

What a lovely thing to do for your partner to go out

and find somebody to have sex with.

But I question whether like men should have this as a present.

You know what I mean?

Well, I took my husband to a strip club for his birthday one year.

It was a really long time ago when everyone was learning pole dancing.

Oh, yes.

And it was a big thing.

We went there for a lunch.

They had like these lunches where you could go.

And there were quite a few women there and women with men and also just men.

Was it a nice strip club?

Not really.

Oh, OK.

And I didn't get off on it.

And I don't think he did either.

But it was just actually quite a fun thing to do together.

Yeah.

Like it was a bit of an adventure.

Like, I don't know, going to the art gallery or something.

For a lot of women, though.

And the reason that sex workers say that a big market for them often is couples.

Because it's a very safe way.

I think in many cases for women to explore their sexuality.

Because if you are a straight woman and a woman in a heterosexual relationship

and you're keen to be with another woman, where would you start?

Would you go to a bar?

What bar would you go to?

How would it work?

How would all of that happen?

So I think now there are more and more women acknowledging that perhaps they might be queer

or that they might be interested in exploring their sexuality with another woman.

And that's kind of like a safe way of doing it with a sex worker.

Because it's like someone that comes and then literally and then they go.

So maybe they don't come.

So you think the birthday present element of it is a little bit of an excuse?

But don't we all do things?

Like a door that's open.

Oh, I see.

You know what I mean?

Could be.

I mean, if she was like, ooh, yuck, there's no way I would do that.

Then presumably she wouldn't.

But she was like neutral about it, like a little bit how you feel about Martha Stewart.

It seems like she felt that way about the threesome.

Whereas she was like, yeah, not really into it.

Don't mind.

Gave it a bump.

Yeah, exactly.

Gave it a bump.

Happy to do it for my partner.

The mental load of her doing it, which is very funny.

Oh, that was so good.

And very relatable.

Because also if she hadn't, it's a bit like when your beloved who apparently knows everything

about you buys you a dress that you would never wear.

Right.

So imagine that they're picking the threesome partner.

Oh, right.

Do you know what I mean?

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

What's your face?

They could get it very wrong.

True.

They could be like, here's Cindy and you're like, Cindy's not my thing.

Yeah.

Because she had more control panel.

Yeah.

So it gave her more control.

Right.

I have no judgment about the threesome element, of course.

And I, you know, I know lots of people for whom this would definitely work and who they

do this kind of stuff.

But my concern is if a man is like, get me a threesome for my birthday.

That would be great.

And that's not really your thing.

And you think this gives you some control over that and where his desires and interests

are going to go there.

I think you might be kidding yourself.

Well, that was what was funny about the piece is that he didn't expect to actually do it.

Like it was just one of those things that I'm sure, you know, a lot of people throw out

there.

This is a very specific genre of writing that I love.

The organization of threesome first person essay.

There's another one that I read by the woman who's married to the guy from American Pie.

Jason Biggs is married to Jenny Mullen and she wrote a really funny piece about how they

did something similar.

They decided they were going to be in Vegas and they'd have a threesome.

And so it was the organization that was just hilarious.

And then the actual threesome was fine, but like, was a lot of mental load.

It's not easy.

Clearly not.

Pamela says it cost her quite a lot of money, all these lunches.

I haven't done a stadium gig before.

Honey, we'll help you.

Or she could not watch.

We could put her in the bathroom and she could look through the keyhole.

Tom, I feel like you're turning a threesome into a twosome.

If you want to make out loud part of your routine five days a week, we release segments on

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To get full access, follow the link in the show notes.

And a big thank you to all our current subscribers.

Johnny Depp is officially uncancelled if he was ever cancelled in the first place.

It has been a very big week for the 90s bad boy and 2000s bad man.

He won his defamation case last year against his ex-wife Amber Hurd.

You may remember.

She accused him of domestic violence and, confusingly, that was a charge that was upheld

in a UK court the year prior, but was dismissed by a jury in the US.

This week, the actor has just received a seven-minute standing ovation at the Cannes Film Festival

for his latest movie.

It's kind of like his big return to a leading man role.

Hollywood was sort of holding him on pause until the results of that trial and maybe

sussing out public opinion and how it was going to fall.

But his career is back in full swing.

The movie is John DuBerry and he got this big standing ovation.

He also, this week, signed a $30 million deal with the fashion house Christian Dior

to continue as the face of their men's fragrances.

And this is apparently the most lucrative men's fragrance deal in history.

So Johnny Depp was in Cannes to see his movie premiere and get his standing ovation.

And also in Cannes are thousands of Johnny Depp fans, big fans.

They lined up for over nine hours to go to the premiere and they were holding up posters

saying, Viva Johnny and We Love Johnny.

And there were chants of Johnny, Johnny, Johnny.

And now we're getting him to sign printed copies of his Dior fragrance ads.

So, Holly, what does it all mean?

Can you unpack it for us?

I have a theory about this.

I have to say, I don't want to be all outrageous about any of this,

but the $30 million fragrance deal boggles my tiny mind.

Because the people who rep fragrances are people who you want to smell like, right?

And I don't think I know a man like any man, whatever age,

who these days after all we've learned about Johnny is going,

yeah, I want to smell like Johnny.

But they obviously do because those money, those monies don't come without a lot of market research.

And I know he used to have this outlaw image and people were like, I want that bad boy.

But that's like, do you want to smell like Johnny Offee?

I absolutely do not want to smell like Johnny or smell Johnny, either or.

This hasn't been pointed out, but I think it might be a little bit fricking on the nose

that the name of the fragrance that he actually advertises is O'Sauvage.

Yeah, exactly.

That is so outrageous.

All of it together is just such bad optics.

So, back to the standing ovation and the uncancellation, right?

I have a theory that it's not really about Johnny Depp.

Johnny Depp is or was at least back when he was a bit more sober and coherent.

Pirates of the Caribbean.

Oh, before that, he's a really good actor.

21 Jumpstream.

One of the best actors of his generation.

No question.

Working with Scorsese and all the best directors, he was like high, high, high-profile, great actor.

I liked him in Willy Wonka.

I'm sure he is very good in this.

I don't doubt that he's very good in this.

But I think that the fevered obsession, the quivering crowds,

remember outside the court rooms when that whole circus of a trial was happening

and the people coming in costume and waving signs.

So, what's that about?

Got this cult-like status now.

Yeah, I think that that's not really about Johnny Depp as such and fandom.

I think it's about what he has come to represent.

And I think for a lot of people, he has come to represent standing up to the

in inverted commas excesses of the Me Too movement, right?

So, we should all remember that when that case was happening in the US,

which was a libel case, essentially, against his ex-wife, Amber Hood,

and we're not going to get into all the weeds of it,

it was the second trial he'd been tried in Britain.

Convicted, yeah.

Yes, and he was convicted.

He was found in that courtroom by a justice that he had committed 12 of the 14 alleged

incidents of domestic violence against his wife.

And that was also a civil case.

So, when we say convicted, it wasn't a criminal case.

So, obviously, he didn't go to jail, but he was found that it was true.

Yeah, because basically, he was suing the son for describing him as a wife beater

and what was trying to be proved there is that whether that salacious language

could be fairly applied and the justice with all the evidence in front of him

and some of the best legal minds in the world representing both sides said,

yes, he is guilty of 12 of those 14 assaults.

He can be described that way.

That case in the US, I think in the public's mind,

it's like he was acquitted.

Amber Heard was a woman scorned.

She made it up.

An unreliable witness.

Somebody who had a point to prove and she was out for money and da-da-da-da.

And that's the narrative that I think a lot of people are walking around with

about Johnny Depp.

And I think that within that, there's a portion of the population who's like,

thank God, you know, white men can't do anything anymore.

Crazy women are trying to tear us down at every turn and the world's gone mad.

And I think that Depp has become kind of an icon for that.

One of the things that I found most infuriating in the case,

but a lot of people loved, was his kind of nod-nod-wink-wink response to all the

horrendous stuff that was being put on the table about his drug abuse,

his alcohol abuse, the state of their relationship,

the fact he could barely dress himself, never mind anything else.

And he just kind of turned all that into a meme-ified.

Yeah, rock and roll baby.

Yeah, rock and roll baby.

Rock and roll baby kind of looks cute on you when you're 24.

But I would argue that now he's a bit of a subtle man,

but I think he's become bigger than Johnny Depp.

It's like he's become an icon of sort of a slightly conservative,

yeah, you can't keep a good man down kind of thing.

I don't know, what do you think, healthy?

Yeah, I think you're absolutely onto something here.

And I think that there is this sort of like note of triumph to this,

like he was in the weeds with something and he came out the other end

and he's a triumphant victorious man.

And inevitably we have to reflect on the fact that that means

that Amber Heard is a loser in this and that she has been cast

as this person who throws around misaccusations and lies in the public.

And it's really heinous, but I also want to note something else

because I think there's a couple of different layers to this.

I do think that there is that sort of reaction to me too.

I think that there's a lot of like deeply ingrained misogyny

and disinformation on the internet.

But I also think that what it comes down to is basic maths of the film industry.

So something that I want to draw attention to is a comment

that was made by the festival director of Cannes.

So he was asked by somebody about depth presence at the festival.

And he said, if there's one person in this world who didn't find

the least interest in this very publicized trial, it's me.

I don't know what it's about.

I also care about Johnny Depp as an actor.

And that makes my blood boil, but I think that what that means

is that there's also been some very sort of cold industry mathematics

on whether or not he's come through.

And now they have decided that he's profitable again.

100%.

Yeah.

I've got a quick recommendation before we go.

It's for the Martha Stewart stunts in the crowd.

It's a podcast called Wiser Than Me.

And it's hosted by Julia Louis-Dreyfus,

who obviously of Seinfeld fame, a Veep fame, brilliant actress,

very funny woman.

Julia is now in her mid-60s.

And she is hosting a podcast as every celebrity is.

But hers is called Wiser Than Me because on it she interviews older women.

A very smart friend of mine put me onto it.

And particularly this episode that I'm going to recommend,

which is with a woman called Ruth Reichel.

Now, you might know, like my smart friend does, who's a food writer,

exactly who she is because she's a very famous food writer.

She was iconic through the sort of 60s, 70s, 80s and onwards

as being food critic for the LA Times, the New York Times.

She very famously published a food review in the New York Times.

She used to have to wear disguises and things to go to restaurants

because she was so famous and well-known.

And she went to one of the fanciest restaurants in New York called La Cirque

as herself and then in a disguise as someone else

and then wrote two reviews.

Oh, wow.

And apparently it nearly closed like the restaurant.

Nearly closed restaurant,

but also the New York Times nearly refused to publish it.

Wow.

Fascinating story.

She's an amazing woman.

She also went on to edit this iconic food magazine called Gourmet,

which is in the Condé Nast stable.

So she worked with Anna Wintour with all those people.

And it's just the most brilliant conversation with an older woman

who is bold and fierce and yes, not wearing a bikini mead that we know of.

I just loved it.

My biggest problem with getting older is, you know,

there are things that you think of like, when my cats die,

will I get more cats because they would outlive me?

It's funny.

I've had the same thought about my dog, George,

because I figure he'll live like 14 years.

I'll be 75.

Let's say he kicks it then.

Do we get another animal?

Any woman I've mentioned this to has started listening to Julia Louis

show is like, yes, because we do put older women out to pasture.

We just do.

Her one with Jane Fonda is really good.

And I also love Julia Louis.

She talks about how she went to therapy with her mother in her 60s

when she was in her 60s.

So her mother must have been in her 80s to work through some stuff from her childhood.

She's just fascinating.

At the end of every show, she calls her mum and they have a quick chat.

It's very cute.

That's so sweet.

That's it for today's show.

Thank you so much, Elfie Scott, for filling in.

Thank you, Holly.

If you're looking for something else to listen to,

we had a conversation yesterday that I also wrote a story about,

about how we're seeing the results of people living intensely in the public eye

coming in.

It's not always great.

The influences are not OK.

So we spoke about Abby Chatfield.

We spoke about Heather Armstrong, who is the founder of the Deuce blog.

Is this a big social experiment?

What happens when your personal life becomes your job and things stop going well in it

and you want to turn off that tap of information?

There's a link in the show notes.

Have a click.

You can listen to it right now.

Thank you for listening.

This episode was produced by Emma Gillespie with assistant production from Susanna Makin.

Audio production by Leah Porges.

We'll see you tomorrow.

Bye.

Shout out to any Mamma Mia subscribers listening.

If you love the show and you want to support us,

subscribing to Mamma Mia is the very best way to do it.

There's a link in the episode description.

Machine-generated transcript that may contain inaccuracies.