Mamamia Out Loud: The Logies Is Having An Identity Crisis

You're listening to a Mamma Mia podcast.

Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters that this podcast is recorded on.

You know how my worst for last week was someone said I was too much and it really upset me.

Three people contacted me to apologise. None of them were the person who said it to me.

That's hilarious.

It's basically the thing most said to Mia.

The person who said it to me has either not heard the episode or doesn't care.

Mamma Mia Out Loud!

Hello and welcome to Mamma Mia Out Loud.

It's what women are talking about on Monday the 31st of July.

I'm Holly Wainwright.

I'm Mia Friedman.

And I'm Claire Stevens.

And on the show today, The Logies is trapped between two worlds and it makes for rather awkward viewing.

The figurine which I think the first one I won the base fell off.

It didn't deter me. It was still great together.

Plus, it's the main character of the Barbie movie, not Barbie.

And momages are not just for celebrity kids. Does everyone now just want a work mom?

But first...

In case you missed it, yes, aliens are real.

And yes, people don't care that much because there's already a lot going on and it's a bit heavy.

I embody this story because I've seen headlines for a few days now that say yes, aliens are real.

And I'm just like, I can't deal with that. And I just move on.

Good. I'm glad you did for us.

So on Wednesday last week, three former intelligence officials told US Congress that they believe the government knows more about UFOs

or what agencies now call UAPs, which is Unidentified Anomalous Phenomena, than they've told the public.

Can I just... I know this is a tangent, but why do we have to keep renaming things?

Like STDs are now called STIs.

Someone said that we're not calling it HRT anymore, hormonal replacement therapy.

We're calling it something else, which I can't remember.

I'll explain why. And I actually found it quite handy.

So UFOs are Unidentified Flying Objects?

Yeah.

They're not always flying. Sometimes they're in the water.

Yeah.

Sometimes they're on the ground.

Oh.

Okay. So we don't want to discount them, do we?

But they must have been flying at some point to get here.

Well, you don't know.

Into the water and onto the ground?

Actually, from one of the stories.

Oh, no.

Maybe not.

Maybe there's some weird time space continuum where they just appear.

It's Monday, I can't do anything.

I know.

I know.

David Gersh, who was a former US intelligence official for like 14 years.

This is not a random guy.

He's become like a whistleblower.

And he has said he is absolutely certain the federal government is in possession of UAPs.

And he said he hasn't seen them himself,

but he has conducted interviews with 40 witnesses in four years.

But the most exciting part of it is he says through his work,

he was informed of this multi-decade Pentagon program that was like looking at these UAPs

and they had recovered non-human biologists.

Well, someone has to drive them or fly them.

Yeah.

He stayed away from using the word alien and instead he used non-human.

I did hear this and he said that they were not alive when they were recovered.

I've heard about this before.

Isn't this what Area 51 is?

That secret thing that's in lots of movies.

Yep.

And so he said to Congress that further information was too sensitive to be shared with the public at this stage.

But basically they're calling for some kind of really clear way for people to share their stories about seeing things

because they're stigma associated.

So if you're a pilot and you're like, I saw something in the sky,

but I'm not going to say anything because I sound crazy.

He is like, we need ways to do this and the government needs to be more transparent because the government knows a lot.

I can point them towards some chat rooms and Facebook groups where that shit's happening all the time.

I've always just thought that you'd have to be really arrogant to think that we are the only living creatures in the entire universe.

That seems like a big swing to take.

I just wonder whether aliens look how we think they'll look.

Do you know what I mean?

Maybe they walk among us.

Yeah.

Oh my gosh.

Maybe me as an alien.

It's Monday.

I don't need to know everything.

I know.

All right.

Come on, everyone.

Come on.

You've got 30 seconds.

Wow.

Do you want to hold this?

Yes.

I've got a thing.

Thank you, everybody.

He made the concierge print a speech.

So.

A4.

A4.

Yeah, I've changed.

I made the concierge printed out.

Okay.

Thanks to TV Week for hosting this shindig.

You know, when you're sitting at home, you've got new loggies.

But when you hear you're like, hey, loggies.

Last night, it was Aussie TV's Night of Nights.

That's trademark, the way you have to refer to the loggies, isn't it?

It is.

And now that we've all slept on it, or maybe slept through it, we have a bit to say about the loggies.

Now, towns were sprayed.

Women were strapped into frocks.

Awkward beaches were given.

TV relics were dug up.

And in the wake of it all, we have to ask ourselves, is there a point to the loggies?

Do they have a place in 2023?

Sam Pang hosted.

He is a comedian who is on a show on both Channel 7 and Channel 10,

neither of which I watch, but I recognize his face.

It's the first time anyone's been brave enough to do that job for a decade.

Yes, solo.

So the loggies have been on, but nobody's wanted to do it

because it's a real poison chalice, hosting that show.

And of course, Sonya Kruger took home the gold loggie.

Tonight, you guys, all your support, you've made me feel so good.

I don't know what else to say.

So many people to thank and so little time.

I'll be sending out apology letters tomorrow to everybody that I haven't thanked tonight.

Go and party.

Have a good time.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Thank you.

In her speech, she launched into quite a risky bit about Hamish Blake,

which didn't quite land.

Here it is.

And I said to him, I said, Mark, who did you vote for?

Put him on the spot.

And he was like, well, Sonya, I think people are a little over Hamish.

And I went, no, Mark, surely not.

No, he's the odds on favorite to win.

And he went, no.

And frankly, I'm secretly hoping he'll leave the agency

so I can concentrate all of my efforts on you, Sonya.

I'm just kidding.

Obviously, Mark did not say that.

That spontaneous speech banter is really difficult.

I want to start before we get into where the place of the loggies is or isn't.

With everybody's highlight and low light of the night.

Hull?

I really liked seeing Harriet Dyer and Patrick Bramble get well rewarded

for Colin from Accounts A because I loved that show.

I genuinely did.

And it has become such a smash hit in Britain that all my English friends

and family just talk to me about it constantly.

But also they felt fresh because I'm not criticizing any of the people

who got up there.

But the worst thing without question, I think you're about to criticize them.

I am.

But nearly all of the pre-award banter bits.

But my other highlight was definitely Masterchef Win

because I actually found that genuinely really emotional.

As I stand here tonight, it's still hard to believe that my mate

and our amazing Judge Jock is no longer with us.

So, big man, this is 100% dedicated to you.

Tonight, we are going to celebrate Jock style.

Please, everybody, give it up for Jock the Frillo.

My highlight, very superficial, was actually Harriet Dyer's dress.

Beautiful.

Specifically, contrasted with the red lipstick.

It was also the freshness of her and Patrick Bramble,

but it was sort of the symbol of moving into a new era of television.

My low light was Darryl Summers pretending to do an auction

while presenting the gold logie.

And it was the single worst thing I've ever seen.

And then it panned to Tom Gleason.

And Tom Gleason mouthed, this isn't funny.

What is my bid?

Please, dude, don't be shy, don't be shy.

Julia Morris down there.

$5,000.

Thank you, Julia.

Wonderful.

We're off.

We're off on the market.

And if I'm not wrong, I think you are too from what I read.

Yes, OK.

Hey, Miss Blake.

Hey, Miss Blake.

$10,000 from Hey, Miss Blake.

Thank you.

It was so painful and I hated it.

And I was so tired and I wanted to go to bed.

Darryl was actually my low light too.

I thought it was really interesting.

I used to watch Hey, Hey, It's Saturday.

And I thought that he had the swagger of a particular 80s

alpha man who was very powerful in the 80s.

And he was.

And he mentioned very early and often how he'd won the gold logie.

And it was all just very, because my highlight was actually

Sam Pang.

And I thought he did a really good job.

And the contrast between the old and the new,

I thought was really interesting.

I thought Sam Pang, you have to be a little bit edgy.

You can't just be vanilla.

And he was a very edgy.

He was.

You have to have a little bit of Ricky Gervais,

but he wasn't cruel.

I'd also like to acknowledge a win for diversity tonight.

I'm the first host in the history of the logies

to be half and half, half Channel 7 and half Channel 10.

Let's be honest, it's just great to have an age on Channel 7.

Here's the thing there, right?

Is that I don't want to be ageist, because it's interesting.

One of the things I noticed about last night,

so I used to work at TV week and TV week on the logies,

as we all know.

And it's nearly 20 years, I was saying to Brent last night,

because that's where we met.

We met when I was working at TV week.

And it's almost 20 years since I was covering those logies nights.

And that was the era when it was Georgie Parker,

Lisa McKeown, Rove McManus,

John Wood were winning all the time, right?

And I saw Georgie Parker get up there last night

and then have to do her acceptance speech for Home and Away,

which was a bit clunky and everything.

And I thought, God, she's been doing this for a very long time.

And in a way, that's great, because you know, it's experience.

And it's, you know, why shouldn't these people all still be there

after 20 years?

They've earned their stripes and all those things.

But then people like me included are like,

get the old people off.

I want some young edgy.

And then I'm like, oh, I am one of the old people.

Damn it, that's awkward.

The thing with the logies is that television's changed a lot.

The time that we remember it and the time that you were working at TV Week,

there were three free-to-air channels and two, you know,

government funded channels being the ABC and SBS at the time.

And that was it.

So everybody knew everybody because there were only five channels

and we were all watching the same shows.

Now, you know, some people watching TikTok,

some people are watching Sky News and there's not that commonality.

So it makes them watching the logies quite a confusing experience

because the people you know, you know really well.

And there might be people that you were watching 20 years ago,

like Georgie Parker.

But then the people you don't know, like you've never heard of them

and you're like, why are they nominated?

Who's that guy?

Who's that woman?

And I think it's interesting, you know,

you look at the fact that there's two different categories.

People vote online now, but there's the most outstanding,

which is peer-voted and most popular,

which is voted by the public.

Claire, do you think that there's kind of like two different streams going on?

Because it's easy to go, oh, why did Sonya Kruger win?

What shows is she even on really?

But she's on three massive commercial TV shows.

I think with these sorts of awards shows and it sounds horrible

and I really want to be careful what I say

because I don't want to discredit the hard work of the people who did win.

But as soon as you just get a result, you're just watching an award

and you just go, what the hell?

That kind of throws the whole thing into what is this?

And I think the first one for a lot of people was

the most outstanding children's program and it didn't go to Bluey.

And you just look at it and you go, by every single measure,

it's got to be Bluey and we've got to celebrate.

Bluey win every year for the rest of time.

If it is.

The Wiggles did for 20 years or so.

Yeah, if it is, genuinely the most outstanding.

The other one I thought was most popular drama series,

miniseries or tell a movie going to home and away.

And I just thought, is it?

Most outstanding.

Most popular.

Oh, but most popular for other people.

But again, it is most popular.

But I think we need to get rid of the voted ones.

It's not voted in any actual fair.

You look at heartbreak.

I have this argument with Jesse all the time too, Claire,

that there's this very deep fairness thing going on for you guys about awards.

Like they should be really fair.

Awards shows aren't fair, guys.

But when it's just so outlandish,

when you just see something and go,

there's been amazing Australian television,

there's broken records.

How do you make it fair?

But it's not outstanding.

It's popular.

And yes, but I'm saying that the people who are voting,

no offence, Holly, are TV week people.

And that is a very specific...

Why are you being so snobby?

And that is a very specific...

But you can vote.

Anyone can vote.

You go online and you can vote.

They're the people who are invested.

That's who they are, right?

Watching the loggies, I get the sense

that there's this amateur vibe to the whole thing.

And you look at American awards shows, British awards shows,

and there's a little bit more reverence of like celebrating talent.

And I feel like we just don't have that.

Everybody's taking the piss.

The awards don't really make sense.

Daryl Summers isn't making any sense whatsoever.

It's a lot of in-jokes about Carl Stephanovic.

That's true.

And it is tired.

Having just said before about ageism,

it does feel like we need to move past the Carl Gags

and everything, 100%.

And a bit Newton's sicker fancy.

But I think there's a snobbery here about that

because I actually think it's really good

to have in-award shows peer-voted and public-voted.

Other shows do do that too.

But I think...

Do you believe the public vote thing?

I feel so horrible that I was like,

some of these people, the heartbreak high stars,

have huge social media followings.

That show was absolutely massive.

And the fact that someone like Chloe Hayden...

It wasn't massive on commercial TV.

And also it didn't have...

Firstly, when you're the host broadcaster.

And secondly, when you're on commercial TV,

you can have big marketing campaigns.

So when you are on a streaming network and you are niche,

you probably don't.

And also those people feel a bit too cool probably to say,

hey, can you vote here?

Definitely.

And also the people who want to vote for them

are too cool to vote in the logis.

So that's the issue.

Like if you accept that the logis are what they are,

which is a celebration of mainstream telly in the popular votes.

And then a reward for peer-voted excellence

in the outstanding votes.

You can't argue with the popular vote.

That's just the way it is, right?

Obviously the stats tell us that free-to-air TV is in decline.

But it's not gone.

It's still what a lot of people watch all the time.

And the reason why everyone on Mamma Mia

is clicking on the logis last night and this morning

is because they know these people.

Like Mia said before, they're people that we all know.

We can all agree on.

We've all seen them before.

We want to see what they're wearing tonight.

We want to know what Hamish said.

We want to know.

You know, I think that we get a little bit too sort of...

Oh, but it's not succession.

You know what I mean?

It's like, well, no, it's not succession, but not all TV is.

And the winner of the 2023 Gold Logi goes to...

Mamma Mia Out Loud!

Doesn't seem to matter what I do.

I'm always number two.

Welcome to my conspiracy theory about the biggest movie

in the world right now.

The movie's called Barbie.

You might have heard of it.

But is Barbie actually not about Barbie at all?

It's Greta Gerwig and Margot Robbie's feminist masterpiece

really about Ken?

Certainly some writers think so.

Stuart Heritage wrote in The Guardian and he said,

now that the whole world has apparently gone to see Barbie,

it seems like the secret is out.

Margot Robbie is not the star of Barbie.

Yes, she plays the lead.

Yes, she produced it.

Yes, she gets to spend a lot of time running around in dresses.

Ouch, Stuart.

But the star, heavens know, if you've seen Barbie,

then you'll be fully aware that the star of the film

is actually Ryan Gosling.

It is secretly a Ken vehicle.

Ken gets the juiciest character arc.

He gets all the good jokes.

He gets a musical number.

He gets more than one musical number.

He's self-aware, self-reverential, and complicated.

It might just qualify as the greatest role

of Ryan Gosling's life.

Now, dance numbers and Gosling's Oscar hopes,

which everyone's talking about really seriously, aside,

much of the speculation about Barbie's message

as a movie centers around Ken too.

Time magazine, The Guardian,

wrote that rather than being about female empowerment,

Barbie is actually about male fragility.

Insider writes that Ken represents

a particular type of toxic soft boy

that's women's biggest enemy.

And lots of people are saying that Ken represents

a cautionary tale about incels,

never chosen by the pretty girl at school.

In Time, a line a doctor man wrote,

even though this is a movie that leans heavily

into a female aesthetic.

I was saying that correctly.

It's one of my words.

Aesthetic. Aesthetic?

I'm not anaesthetic.

I can't do it.

Even though this is a movie that leans heavily

into a feminine aesthetic,

Ken has the most intriguing and funniest part to play,

offering a searing social commentary

on modern man's insecurities dressed up in bubblegum pink.

Friends, have we all just been tricked

into watching a so-called woman's movie about men?

I'm so furious about this commentary.

Because it misses the fundamental point,

which we talked about on the podcast recently,

that feminism is about men too.

And there's female empowerment and male fragility

as two sides of the same coin.

Like, Ken only exists in the way that we love Ken

because of Barbie.

This is all relational.

It is not about Ken being a breakout star.

I will say, Ryan Gosling is absolutely fantastic.

And what we've learnt from this is that

Ryan Gosling needs to do more comedy.

Because he is...

He just actually needs to be in every movie ever made.

Yes, he is hilarious.

But I do find it really interesting

that people almost want to choose a singular person

that this is about.

And a side.

Yes, and the fact is that the Barbie movie

has an A-plot and a B-plot.

And the A-plot is Barbie and identity

and the mother and the daughter and all of that.

And the B-plot is Ken.

And I think we're just surprised to see a male character

having vulnerability.

And actually, Ken's arc is quite a female arc.

The fact that at the end,

Ken has to contend with the fact that he needs

to love himself independent of his relationship with Barbie

and he's Ken-off.

He's okay on his own.

That's what we see in every female movie.

And people are really resonating with that.

And I just wish people could kind of hold those two truths

at the same time that it's about female empowerment

and male fragility.

This movie makes my brain hurt.

I have no feelings really about Ken.

Like, none.

I'm trying to summon some.

I'm trying to summon some feelings about Ryan Gosling.

How can they watch that whole movie

and not have feelings about Ken?

The point about a lot of this commentary

is that I don't know if it is the B-plot.

I think it's almost like a double A-plot,

you know, in this instance.

So how could you have no feelings about that?

Is it just because it doesn't interest you, that plot line?

Maybe.

I think that Barbie has to have something to fight against

and she has to have, as Claire says,

she has to have something to be juxtaposed against.

And that is Ken.

And what makes it so interesting

is that Ken, for the most part,

plays the role of the woman,

which is the side character,

the side bit,

and the accessory to the main act.

I think it's also, you've got to be realistic

about what it was going to take

to get Ryan Gosling to sign on to that film

because I was reading an interview with him recently

and he said that he thought about it for a year

and he was like,

no, I'm not going to do it.

And at the same time, Greta Gerwig and Margot Robbie

said that his name was in the script.

It was written for him.

And so they kept saying to him,

well, you've got to do it

because your name's in the script.

And I think you're completely...

That wrote it down.

Yeah.

I think you're completely right.

I think in the way that these things

happened behind the scenes,

he would have said,

I'm a leading man.

I mean, it's not good for my career

if I'm literally the gag side character.

I was watching the dance scenes,

the big fight scene with all the Ken's

and then the dance scene.

And I did think this feels like a different movie.

Like I'm a bit confused.

Like I didn't come for this.

I didn't find that stuff very interesting.

Like I thought it would have been fun for a second,

but I would have much preferred

to see the Barbies dancing.

It's interesting that

because I personally loved the Ken energy of it

and I liked the way it resolved.

I was having a conversation with my daughter

about this yesterday

because she said that a lot of people she knows,

she's seen around a lot that like it wasn't fair

how the Ken's got so shoved aside

and they were like,

made such the butt of the joke

and like that all had to be righted at the end

and it wasn't clearly spelled out enough

that they had righted it at the end

and they'd let some men have some of the jobs

on the Supreme Court,

maybe one day in the future if they tried hard enough.

And I'm like, okay, babe.

Again, I don't know that we need to be like worried about the man in Barbies.

But what I'm interested in is like the other reaction

I'm seeing a lot is people feeling guilty

that they thought that Ken was the best thing in the movie.

They're like, I don't know that I should say this,

but that was the best thing about the movie was Ryan Gosling and Ken

and that whole story

and they feel unfeminist to do so

almost as if they're betraying the sisterhood

which I felt that a little bit because I love that storyline

and I think it's great that that's something that we're all discussing.

But I think we resonate with it so much

because Ken is kind of an allegory for feminism

but in a male body.

Like he knows what it's like to be discriminated against

because of your gender.

Something I read that really resonated was that

if Ken wasn't so ridiculous, he'd be threatening.

Yes, they had to make him ridiculous.

Yes.

And so the idea that he comes into Barbie Land.

Because it wasn't sinister.

Even when the Ken's were in charge in Ken's mojo-dojo-casa house

or whatever it's called.

It was just funny.

They weren't aggressive and scary.

No, no.

And I think that almost made us be able to see these gender relations

and have an interesting exploration of patriarchy

in a way that wasn't terrifying or uncomfortable to watch.

It was just entertaining.

So I think all of that stuff, even at the beginning when he's like...

I thought I might stay over tonight.

Why?

Because we're a girlfriend, boyfriend.

To do what?

I'm actually not sure.

That even when he goes absolutely nuts

and gets obsessed with his weird outfits

and his horses and everything, you still have affection for him.

I've seen it written as well that it's a bit of a exploration

of how men get radicalized.

Yeah.

Well, that's what I thought.

That incel argument is very clear to me.

Like not being picked by the pretty girl and all that.

And it becomes really, you know, his furious needs to take his power back.

And you don't need to have a women's studies degree

to be able to spot that plot line, do you?

But if and when we get to next year's award season

and Gosling is nominated and Robbie is not,

will we think that that's the patriarchy at work?

Oh, Sheila have to be nominated, won't she?

No, she won't.

I would also predict that very possibly the checkbooks

that will be open at the moment for the sequel

to Greta Gerwig, Maga Rubby and Ryan Gosling, right?

And my bet is that Maga Rubby will say,

I'll produce but I won't star again.

That Greta Gerwig will say,

I guess if the money's right, I'll write it again.

But there's every chance that Ryan Gosling

will be in the driver's seat of the next one.

And be a Ken movie.

So do we think we're looking at it?

There's predictions of a Ken movie in 2025?

I don't know if Gosling would do it.

Yeah, I don't know.

Don't mess with perfection, do you know what I mean?

He's a classy dude.

I think he'll be like, nah, I've done my bit.

I'll see you on the Malibu beach!

Mama Mia Out Loud!

If you want to make Mama Mia Out Loud

part of your routine five days a week,

we release segments on Tuesdays and Thursdays

just for Mama Mia subscribers.

To get full access, follow the link in the show notes

and a big thank you to all our current subscribers.

A recent article in Bustle

got me thinking about what we expect

from female managers in the workplace

and specifically whether we want them to be our mothers.

So the article opens with a story

about a 37-year-old woman named Alice

who is managing eight people in a very senior role

at a pharmaceutical company.

And she was at the park with her toddler

and she got a call from one of her direct reports

saying that she wasn't going to be at work for a few days

because a family member had attempted suicide

and she'd be at the hospital.

Alice told her take as much time as you need

but the employee stayed on the phone

for over half an hour telling her manager

all the details about what had happened.

And then for several weeks afterwards

during all their catch-ups

they continued to talk about that employee's personal life

instead of her work.

And Alice says in the article that she started to feel

like she had a toddler at home

and eight toddlers to look after at work.

This idea of managers feeling responsible

for the emotional well-being of their teams

or being mummages has become really common

among millennial bosses.

So millennials are mostly in their 30s.

They're one of the largest generations in the workforce

and they're known for being more compassionate

and sensitive than the bosses of the Gen X

and Boomer Era.

You're a millennial, correct?

Yeah, so you're a better boss.

So the Gen X bosses are here.

But this especially for women comes at a cost.

Millennial leaders burn out quicker.

They're more likely to switch jobs

but surely it's not just millennial bosses

because it's now just what younger employees

expect in the workplace.

Holly, do you feel the pressure to be a mummager at work

and do you think that's fair?

I have definitely felt that pressure.

I am not very good at being a mummager

because I have this real bristle

about the office mum vibe

just because you're an older female in a workplace.

You are pushed into a caring corner.

Lots have been written about that as like you

are the one organizing the birthday parties and the cakes

and I am steadfastly not.

I think that anybody who's worked with me would say

when it comes to the idea though of how involved

you are with the staff's personal life,

that's really tricky because boundaries are good

in this case, right?

In my opinion, the best bosses I've ever had,

they know who you are, right?

Obviously they do and they know broadly what's going on with you.

But as soon as you get that line to blurred,

it makes for very difficult workplace relations.

I have tried when I used to manage teams

to be caring and kind but not getting in there

in the emotional weediness of their lives.

However, when I was reading this article,

I was thinking that probably that is what a lot of young,

young workers need because as Mia's written about a lot,

we're dealing with a generation who've had very involved

hands-on parenting, generalization, but a lot of

university educated kids or the rest of it are used to having

a sort of helicopter parent or old times.

They might cast you in that role without realising

that they're doing it.

We talk about how adolescence has been extended

and now everybody still thinks they're a child when they're 25,

which as a Gen X, that boggles my mind, but I get it.

So do they still feel they need that emotional support?

Is that the way you're going to get the best out of people?

Maybe you inevitably have to be both.

I just think that what's really unfortunate about that

is it's going to be women who are pushed into that role

and as you've said in the stats, you can't maintain it.

It's very hard to be performing at the level

that you need to be performing at being 8 or 10 or 12

or four people's best friend involved

and across everything that's happening in their personal lives,

remembering birthdays, remembering all of that stuff

and giving them meaningful feedback that works.

It's actually really difficult to do all that

and how clever and skilled are we

at juggling all those things at once?

I don't think I'm that good.

I've looked around at work and been jealous of some male bosses

because I think no one would ever expect from you

what they expect from a female manager,

because we are meant to be more caring, more empathetic,

more understanding when it comes to mental health.

When there's crisis on the table, by the way,

we need to kind of put a disclaimer in there

that like, of course, of course, right?

Somebody tells you this terrible thing is happening at home.

Of course, you're understanding of it.

I have to say, managing a team here, 99% of people

are incredibly self-sufficient

and do not need their hand held,

do not need the kind of emotional support

that this story was talking about.

Like, I didn't necessarily recognize this anecdote,

but something I did think about was that

when I was managing the editorial team here,

I did a course, like a mental health course,

like managing people.

It was me and a few other managers

because when you're managing young women,

they are going to experience anxiety and depression

and whatever else.

So we did this course and as somebody who has studied psychology,

I was outraged sitting in that course

because the amount of onus on a manager

to know exactly what to do and say

when a person in your team is experiencing a mental health issue,

I thought was absurd.

Well, yeah, because it's quite high risk.

Like, what if even in that anecdote,

what if you say the wrong thing?

Exactly, exactly.

And I didn't trust myself.

We were kind of told what we should do in certain situations

and I was like, look, I'm pretty emotionally intelligent.

I have a knowledge of psychological issues.

I can refer somebody to get help,

but I cannot be their psychologist

because I am not qualified to do that.

How much onus is on the employee

and how much onus is on the manager?

Because I know that I've made mistakes as a manager

in getting too involved,

but it's very hard when someone...

And we encourage this as a society now

that people are very open about their mental health

and this idea of bring your whole self to work.

And we saw this more than ever before during the pandemic

when suddenly the well-being of your staff

and their personal lives

became something that managers had to become very familiar with

literally overnight because...

And I feel like that was necessary at the time.

Of course, it was.

Because it was work-related.

But then when people are working from their houses

with the people that they live in,

of course, all that, there were no boundaries in many ways.

But then what happens when that's finished?

And when someone tells you,

I can't come to work today because I've got anxiety

or because I've got endo

or because my mother is unwell,

you can't then not ask a follow-up question about that

when they come back, which then starts a dialogue.

And if you have someone who's managing

three, four, five, six, ten people,

suddenly they have to be asking all of those people

about their lives and what then becomes

your responsibility as a manager.

So I think it's become very, very blurred.

I think that men are at a huge advantage

because there's, particularly, I've always worked with women,

so it can be very intense.

I've had people crying in my arms in the kitchen

because they've got boyfriend problems.

And that wasn't my idea, but people feeling that they can.

And like, I'm the big, big boss here.

And yet people still feel that they can do that.

It's interesting, isn't it?

Because one of the things that was interesting in this story

is it said, and this is certainly true, right?

Respondents said that their managers have as much influence

on their mental health as their spouse.

And even more than their therapist or doctor,

because if you've got a manager who you have a really, obviously...

Too much pressure.

It is a lot of pressure.

And too much expectation.

Is it realistic?

And I wanted to take sort of gender out of it,

because I can't imagine this question being asked of a male boss.

But is it realistic to think that you wouldn't know anything about...

There are some people I work with who I don't know anything

about their personal lives.

I don't know whether they're gay or straight or married

or single or a mum or not.

And that's fine because we just need to work together.

And I don't think you need to blur that line all the time.

There's a lot of expectation that a good manager should.

And I think that's what a new generation of Gen Z

is entering the workforce and are finding.

And I think that's been a shock.

Gen X has had a while to get used to it.

Millennials are struggling with it,

because often you're not mothers yet.

And I think that this baseline expectation

that your manager should know you deeply as a person,

I just don't think it's realistic,

because also remember, you'll leave,

and then there'll be someone else that comes into that job

and you know, so it's not realistic.

Also, isn't it better to judge people on the job they do

rather than who they are?

That's the point.

They're saying who I am impacts on the job that I do.

The idea that that is then your employer's problem

and your manager's problem,

I don't think that's sustainable or realistic.

And yet that is the expectation.

What you said earlier, Mia, I think is really true.

The question of who is it on the employee

or the employer to establish that.

Because reading this example from this article,

I thought, as a manager, I've done the wrong thing before.

Because if somebody called me and said,

oh, I'm having this personal issue,

me trying to be an empathetic person,

I would ask questions and I would check in on them.

And perhaps it's actually me blurring those boundaries.

And also wanting to be liked as a manager.

And also just being a human, right?

Like being a nice human,

if somebody calls me and they're upset

and they're having a shit time at home,

of course I'm like, oh, mate, that's terrible.

Like we're humans.

And so in my mind, and maybe this is Gen X of me,

like there's empathy and kindness,

but then there's a boundary.

I've got a recommendation before we go

that made me lull so much on the weekend.

I watched Smartlass on the Road.

So Smartlass is a podcast.

Obviously you shouldn't listen to any other podcasts

than ones that my Mia makes.

But if you have to,

Smartlass is one of the movie star shows.

There was a whole rash of them that came up in COVID

when the movie stars didn't have anything to do.

It became a big hit.

It got sold to a network for a lot of money.

It's hosted by Jason Bateman, who I love.

Will Arnett, who I love.

And Sean Hayes, who I love.

So I was very happy with all those men.

They basically interview their famous friends.

There's a lot of banter.

Sometimes it's irritating

because there's too much banter.

Sometimes it's very, very funny.

Anyway, they've made a documentary about their tour.

Welcome to Smartlass.

We started with just the three of us talking

to one another.

It's shocking how little both of you know about anything.

Now we're going to go live on tour.

Please welcome Mr. David Letterman.

Nothing else!

Kevin Hart.

We went to Boston.

New York.

I will watch with my husband.

I'm gay, David.

Chicago.

DC.

Where's the grassy nowhere JFK got assassinated?

That's in Dallas, you stupid dick.

And one of the reasons why I lulled so much is because last year

Mia and Jesse and I went on tour for like the fourth time.

The out louders would know.

And there was a lot in this that's relatable.

There's a lot that's not, let's be honest.

They're on their private planes

and they're ordering ahead their dinner

and they're like being all fancy.

But it is so funny because all I could think is

Jason Bateman is Mia because he's the most famous

and he is the most high maintenance.

No offence.

I hope that isn't up there with calling you a lot.

Will Arnett is Jesse slash Claire.

I know you're not interchangeable

but in this instance you could be very smart, very fast.

I'm Sean Hayes, I'm afraid,

which is basically the person who's like

bumbling around happy to be there like,

Hey guys, we should all be happy today.

Sean Hayes has won a Tony.

So he's not an idiot.

He's from Will and Grace.

If you don't remember.

He's from Will and Grace.

He's just Jack and he's just won a Tony

literally for his Broadway performances.

So he's amazing.

It's kind of his role and this is the dumb one.

Anyway, it's so fun.

And it's also really interesting.

I mean, obviously this isn't like an inside baseball thing,

but they're talking about what's the best way to interact

with the audience.

They're having disagreements about the style of the show,

all that kind of stuff,

which I found very interesting,

but also just this peak behind the curtain.

Jason Bateman.

Another reason why it's interesting is

male movie stars and body image.

He is obsessed with like,

they all are to an extent,

like, can't eat that.

Can't do that.

Can't eat that.

Like just obsessed.

Very California.

Other two take the piss out of him constantly

because Will are next like,

I'll have the steak and the burger and the fries.

And Jason Bateman's just like, you can't.

And he talks about.

He's like completely neurotic.

Jason Bateman.

He's so good.

Anyway, I think he's got health anxiety

close to my heart.

Definitely does.

You're very Jason Bateman.

Smartness on the road.

It's on binge.

It's just a joy.

They have filmed in black and white.

Oh, that's annoying.

That's wanky.

It is wanky, but it's also kind of cool.

And I wonder if that's a vanity choice that again,

we often don't put on men,

but definitely because they're all middle-aged dudes.

And they look like middle-aged dudes.

Hollywood middle-aged dudes.

And we all look better in black and white.

Very flattering.

Thank you for listening to Australia's number one

news and pop culture show.

This episode was produced by Susanna Makin.

The executive producer is Eliza Ratliff

and there's been audio production from Lea Porges.

And we'll see you tomorrow.

Bye.

Bye.

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Machine-generated transcript that may contain inaccuracies.