Mamamia Out Loud: The Four Women We Can’t Agree On

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Hello and welcome to Mumma Mia Out Loud.

It's what women are actually talking about on Monday, the 25th of September.

I'm Holly Wainwright. I'm Mia Friedman. And I'm Claire Steedon.

And on the show today, Linda, Naomi, Christy, Cindy, the supermodels Generation X grew up looking at have made a documentary.

And after watching it, I have a question. Are beautiful women just bad for the rest of us?

Also, we are in the middle of an intense advertising blitz around the voice to parliament and one side is clearly winning. Why?

And you don't know it, but if you want to continue using Instagram for what we know you're secretly using Instagram for, you might need to get yourself a finster, we explain.

But first, Claire Stevens.

In case you missed it, a woman has fallen pregnant while she was already pregnant.

No.

Is it you?

It is not me. It is not me.

A couple in Perth, David and Sandra found out while pregnant with their daughter Poppy, who was conceived naturally, that they were also pregnant with their son Michael via IVF.

So not twins?

Well, technically they are twins. The term is superfitation twins. And there are 10 confirmed cases around the world.

So biologically, these twins are 18 days apart, but they were born on the same day in April of this year.

And one Michael was early.

Poppy was full term.

But because Michael was 18 days behind, he was a lot smaller and had to spend a little bit more time in hospital.

But experts say it's likely there are a lot more unreported cases of this.

There are just 10 cases that it kind of confirmed.

It's because of IVF and then conceiving naturally.

I've heard about it happening or I've read about it happening twice naturally, like not an IVF.

So it's like you release an egg and it gets fertilized and it implants.

And then that's meant to be the sign to your body to stop releasing eggs.

But then sometimes it doesn't get the message because your ovaries were looking at its phone and not paying attention.

They went, oh, sorry.

And didn't realize you were already pregnant. So it just sends out another one.

Sorry, we went again. Sorry about that.

It wasn't about the fashion. It was about the women. That's what a supermodel is.

A new four part documentary dropped on Apple TV over the weekend.

And it blew up many a Gen X group chat or maybe just mine.

The supermodels has reunited four of the biggest supermodels from the 90s.

Cindy Crawford, Naomi Campbell, Christy Tirlington and Linda Evangelista.

What became really apparent watching these four women who are now in their 50s is that at the peak of their careers,

when they were at the absolute center of the zeitgeist and their fame was the equivalent of like the Beatles or now the Kardashians,

they really were the original influences and they were groundbreaking because they knew their worth and they knew their power

and they used their beauty to become brands in and of themselves.

And they also became businesses some more successfully than others because before the super's nobody knew models names

and they were just used as sort of these dispensable interchangeable tools by designers and advertisers.

But the supermodels had power and they used it.

And this doco really looks at some of the ugly things that went on behind the scenes during those heady years in the 90s,

like racism and sexual harassment and abuse and there's some heartbreaking parts to it.

And then also the difficult years afterwards where they all had to navigate what it means to age out of your job.

I felt really nostalgic because I was starting my own career in magazines at that time

and writing about these women and following their lives was literally my job.

All the revelations from the documentary have caused a lot of people to sort of reflect about what our ideas of supermodels are.

And some people have I suppose quite predictably been complaining and you would expect me to be one of them,

but I'm not actually that the supermodels were terrible for women collectively

because they established these impossible beauty standards that none of us could ever live up to.

But oh, you disagree.

I do disagree. It was interesting to me that I was watching this on Friday night,

like possibly the perfect conditions for watching this if you're a Generation X woman, right?

My kids had just gone to bed. Brent was out.

I had a glass of pink wine with some ice in it.

I had some dip.

Living the dream.

And I just built this.

And I was literally in heaven.

And what I realized, it's beautifully made, right?

And they all cooperating, so it's very profesh, very glossy.

Just looking at them and revisiting all these fashion shoots and all these spreads and all these shows,

like I just loved looking at them.

And I was examining it and I'd noticed that I didn't have one iota of resentment towards any of these women

for what they look like, which is kind of weird, really, right?

Because I was young when I started staring at these women.

I remember I've said on the show before, before I was even working, before I was even at uni,

I used to go and buy with the little money I had fashion magazines and just stare at them.

And I knew all their names. I didn't know anything else about them really.

I didn't really care, but I just liked looking at them.

And it made me think that now I think we have a relationship with beauty.

And I think probably made worse by social media in lots of ways that's brought us really close to it

and we're supposed to want to attain it.

So if only you try hard enough, diet enough, get enough surgery, spend enough money on beauty creams.

You too can look like the influencers on your phones.

It never occurred to me even once that I should look like the supermodels

because who looks like the supermodels?

They're like these exotic creatures in a zoo, which I know is problematic in itself

to look at these women and just be like, it's like looking at a tiger.

You know what I mean? All like watching the Olympics.

Like you can watch the Olympics and marvel at these incredible feats,

but you never thought, if I just did something, I could high jump that high or swim that fast.

You're right.

No, like it's like they're a very specific thing.

And it's really interesting listening to them talk because the four women all came to modelling in different ways.

Some of them really wanted it from an early age.

Others were more like that happened to bump into a scout, whatever.

And they're very different people.

It's interesting to see the shoots.

There's no pretending that that wasn't lighting and makeup and the best photographers in the world

and the best designers in the world and all those things creating art.

And it sounds so wanky to say, but that extra layer of glass sort of in between us and them

was probably really good for us.

Do you know what I mean? Like mentally, I didn't think, oh, that's attainable.

I didn't aspire to it.

I was like, these people were born to do that in the way that some people are born incredibly intelligent.

I remember having a similar thought growing up.

I remember learning about people would come to our school and talk to us about,

don't compare yourself to the people on the front covers of magazines and try and give us a body image talk.

And I felt like yelling, I'm not comparing myself to the person on the front cover of magazine.

I'm comparing myself to the girl next to me.

Yeah, right?

I'm thinking beautiful and I don't feel beautiful.

But don't you also think like 100% but also as it became less supermodely culture

and it became more girl next to me and more actresses on the TV

and more now influencers on Instagram, they are slightly, slightly more attainable,

but it makes it almost worse.

Well, I always thought, OK, I'm comparing myself to my peers rather than the people in the media.

However, all the research shows that while perhaps we're not consciously telling ourselves

that we're comparing ourselves to what these people look like, we are absorbing it.

And there are all sorts of studies where when this type of media, this 80s and 90s media

infiltrated a country where it hadn't been before, when it infiltrated a different population,

eating disorders went up, body image issues went up.

I think there's a difference when consciously feeling it and consciously being aware of that comparison

and unconsciously absorbing the fact that this is what we're heralding as perfection in media.

I remember seeing a picture when I was growing up of, I think it was Brooke Shields

and she was in like a bathtub and she would have been very, very young teenager.

And I remember looking at her limbs and just getting this pang of, who has limbs that are that long?

Well, what you're talking about is beauty standards, right?

I agree with you.

I didn't directly compare myself, but I also did because I was literally swimming in the soup of it as a consumer,

but then also it was my job working in magazines that had these women in their covers.

I had to write stories about them all the time.

I interviewed a couple and like they were glamourzons.

They were larger than life and they were completely unattainable.

And when you look at what came after them, which was grunge,

what's interesting about that time compared to now,

and we're looking at this when we relook at a whole lot of 90s cultural moments from Monica Lewinsky

to the OJ Simpson trial and our treatment and our view of women,

is back then we didn't deconstruct things.

And I wonder if it's because it predated a time of the internet.

The opinions that were being published and that were out there were still very gate kept, you know?

So it wasn't just regular women saying things.

Yeah, it would be feminist texts were obviously there that we're talking about beauty standards.

Because why do I love those women so unconditionally and yet Emirata drives me insane?

Why?

Well, I would argue that it's because Emirata is closer to you.

I would argue that it's and this is a little bit screwed up, I think,

because Emirata has stuff to say and that feels incompatible because the thing about these women,

That's always my argument about why I think she annoys you.

Yeah.

And like looking at these women, I didn't watch the documentary,

but I've seen the trailer and I've read a lot about it.

And there's all this stuff about how they help break down barriers and it wasn't about the hair and the makeup or the fashion.

It was about the women and it's all this stuff.

And I'm like, no, it wasn't.

It was solely that had their photographs taken.

They're on the covers of magazines.

They were not.

Disagree, I disagree.

In the way that people like.

But two things that they did talk about.

One is that they knew their worth that quote from Linda Evangelista about,

we don't get out of bed for less than $10,000 a day.

Now that would be seen in these days as hustle, you go girl, do your power poses.

Then they were destroyed and you had magazine editors and designers coming out and saying they're too arrogant.

They're too confident.

They're too spoiled because they were earning money and threaten their business model.

And the other thing that they did do, which was use their power,

they became aware that Naomi Campbell was not getting booked for the same jobs that they were.

And they said, we will not walk your runway.

We will not do your campaign unless you also book Naomi.

Now they didn't have an Instagram account that they could publish that on.

And they didn't do a lot of interviews where they spoke about that, but they still did it.

There's a brilliant bit in this because when they get to the part about how when the tide turned on the supermodels,

because they were so expensive.

John Casablanca's, who's this very, very famous modeling magnate who's massively problematic

and now has lots of sexual assault charges against him.

He's literally talking about what a bunch of entitled bitches they are while sitting in the back of a limo sipping champagne.

Yeah.

And you're just like, this world was wild.

You know, I have a lot of sympathy clear for the argument that we don't like beautiful women who talk.

I'll pay that.

But I also just think it was a different time.

I'm not saying there's nothing problematic about them because there is, right?

Even when you hear them tell their stories and you should watch it because it's really interesting, right?

They were way too young.

They were like 15 years old and being sent off to live in model share houses in New York City.

And their mums were like, I'm sure something bad will happen.

Yeah, sure.

You know, they were all with obviously the exception of Naomi said why they were all way too thin.

Of course it's problematic.

And of course the beauty standards imposed by the fashion industry needed to be blown up.

And they are in the process of that.

We're still not there.

But I still feel like in some ways the fact that Emrada and not even Emrada, but more all the beautiful influencers who aren't six foot tall with legs up to their neck and know all their angles for a shoot.

But they're living in my phone and in my daughter's phone pretending like they're normal people.

I don't mean that they individually are pretending, but you know, it's sold to me in that way.

Whereas this level of beauty and stardom and iconism iconism was never sold to me as if it could be me.

I remember the first time I ever saw a supermodel in the flesh because I didn't work in that level of magazines at this time.

And it wasn't one of them.

It was Megan Gale or someone, you know, not quite as it was like seeing an alien.

They're just not made like most of us.

And so it's just a complete fluke of genetics that these women look the way they do.

All of the childhood pictures in this are hilarious because they're standing next to their sisters, most of them.

And they just look from a very early age, very different to everybody else.

What does that mean about the fashion industry?

I get that on a more personal level, you're feeling some distance from it.

But what does it mean about an industry?

I mean, we're all buying clothes, we're all going to clothes shops, we're all buying things.

Part of this system that is based on the fact that all women should have these willowy bodies that none of us fricking have.

It's almost more insidious that it's more subtle.

I agree entirely that the reckoning that's come to a point for the fashion industry had to come.

Thank God, catwalks are way more diverse now.

I don't look back in nostalgia as in, oh, I wish it was like that now.

I think the fashion industry was enormously problematic and probably still is.

But Mia's right that these women were the first ones to go, actually, we want a piece of this.

And they exerted power in a way and that's why the fashion industry turned on them.

It's a really interesting story about a moment in time.

So it's not perfect and the politics of it is certainly not perfect.

I don't know, I just found it so interesting to look back on an era that was so different

to this one where constantly being told if we just try hard enough, we too can be beautiful.

You know that I have a love-hate relationship with TikTok, my friends.

Claire Stevens is very big on TikTok.

Mia likes the TikTok too, always getting trapped in strange corners of it.

I am on and off it.

And if you're not a big TikTok person, you might not know it has a hypersensitive algorithm.

So it's supposed to have the best personalization feature for you.

But I will stand here and say it's never nailed me.

Every time I go on it, I get weird things.

I'm like, you're not making my life better go away.

You don't spend enough time on it.

I think this is it, right?

Yeah.

So anyway, this weekend I went back on it for various reasons.

And I was immediately flooded with vote no ads for the voice to parliament, of course.

The first reason I'm voting no to the voice to parliament.

What I'm about to say is entirely my personal perspective as a yes voter.

I say no to the voice to parliament.

I wanted to give one practical reason as to why I think the voice to parliament is going to be a good idea.

And apparently this is not just me.

Young Australians, who are the demographic most likely to be on TikTok, obviously,

are also the demographic most likely to vote yes.

And yet on TikTok, the no campaign, largely under the banner Organization of Fair Australia,

has more than 21 million plays.

And all the data collected around what's working on TikTok and what's not

will show you that the no is outperforming the yes by an astonishing amount.

That 21 million on the Fair Australia ads is compared with about one million on the yes campaign

and the all a rue statement campaign and the yes 23 campaign.

So the no camp is blitzing TikTok and it seems winning the debate support for the voice

sat at almost 70% yes last year before the debate in the campaign started really.

That means that in passing in principle, if Australians thought about it at all,

they kind of went, sounds right.

Sure.

That support has been dropping and dropping and dropping and it's now sitting at around

35 to 40% depending on what poll you look at.

Now polls aren't always right.

And in fact, people will say the only one that matters is on the day.

You always say that particularly when you're losing in the polls, but they're not always right.

We've seen lots of upsets in this over the last few years.

But what I want to know is why is it often the more conservative side of politics

is reflected in the polling that of course not everyone who's voting no is conservative.

But if you broke it down along party lines, you are more likely to vote no if you're on the conservative side of politics

and more likely to vote yes if you're on the progressive side of politics.

Why is it that often the conservative side of politics are dominating messaging

when it comes to this kind of political advertising?

Claire Stevens, you understand TikTok better than I do.

What is going on there?

We know that polarizing content is what works on social media

and the yes content isn't polarizing in the same way that the no content has been.

So the John Farnham ad isn't angry or controversial in the same way

that just enterprise giving a address at the National Press Club.

Can I ask you please, do you believe the history of colonization continues

to have an impact on some indigenous Australians?

I'll be honest with you. No, I don't think so.

Aboriginal Australians, many of us have the same opportunities as all other Australians in this country.

That's polarizing and that is going to get hundreds and thousands of comments

and a whole lot of shares of people saying I cannot believe somebody said this

which increases its visibility.

Exactly and it's going to start a debate in the comments.

That's how it works.

I mean, the way to get any traction on social media is to have an unpopular opinion

an opinion with tension in it.

We talk about it all the time.

When we are publishing stories, there needs to be tension in the headline.

If there's no tension, nobody clicks.

Interestingly, I'm not sure if it's as simple as conservative versus progressive politics

that, you know, conservative stuff does well and progressive stuff doesn't

because I actually think it's the progressive no that seems to be getting the most traction on social media

which is the indigenous people saying actually this isn't what we want

and there was this great article in the conversation that kind of broke down

all the TikTok engagement in the voice referendum

and it said that this fair Australia account which is the one that's doing a lot of the no campaign content

what they've done is there's three key elements that are really cutting through

one is authenticity and that's because they're prioritizing indigenous no supporters

so they've got just enterprise, they've got members of indigenous communities

I'm a brother

an elder

I'm a mama

I'm a daughter

I love my family

and I don't want people to look at them differently

I don't want others to look at me differently

I'm just like any other Australian

I'm an Australian, same as you

we are one mob

I've decided to vote no

because the voice will divide us

and as soon as you see an indigenous person saying I don't want the voice

you're going to listen because there's tension in that

then use of personal narratives, exactly the same thing

and humor

they've been really effective at using TikTok trends

and using what's big on the platform in order to get their message across

can we give me an example?

I mean the just enterprise national press club address has been the single most viral piece of content

I think people would argue that there was an element of humor to it

when she was talking about the difference between coming from a line of indigenous people who had been persecuted

and then she went through the British side who were all convicts and criminals

and how that is a problematic history as well

she was going for a bit of a gag

but they've also got just like the funny voice effects

before you vote in this year's referendum you need to know who this guy is

his name is Thomas Mayo

he's the architect behind the voice who literally wrote the book on the proposal

while the prime minister goes around claiming the voice is just a quote

the activists behind the voice have plans for something far more powerful

trying to own someone in the way that it's meant to be used

exactly

so that yes campaign is a lot more earnest

listening works

teams listen to their coaches

children listen to their parents

well some of the time

when we listen we understand

when we understand we can help

but for the last 250 years we haven't listened to the people who have been here for 65,000

it's time we did

vote yes to a voice and better recognition for indigenous Australians

yes and people might argue that the yes campaign hasn't put the resources into TikTok

because it doesn't need to because that's the audience they already have

so TikTok is 18 to 34 pretty much

and they're the ones who are overwhelmingly voting yes

so maybe the yes campaign has gone

that's not where we need to be we need to be elsewhere

do we think they hate watching the no campaign videos then

if we're looking at these really skewed

numbers of who's engaging with this content

I think I know that I hate watch it

and then what's so frustrating is you watch it and go

I can't believe someone said that

and then you get more and more and more

and I can see how people who might be kind of teetering on the edge

get radicalized

but I mean we've seen such a huge swing

not that you have to be radical to vote no

and we know that there are out louders who will be voting no

and there are out louders who will be voting yes

it's important to acknowledge that yes

but people who might be on the fence

getting stronger ideas because of what they're saying on social media

we know that that's how advertising works if it's effective

I think it's interesting what you were saying earlier

about how conservative groups seem to be

so much more effective at winning hearts and minds

and some other examples would be Brexit or Trump

and I was thinking about this

and you know we looked at the other referendum

about Australia becoming a republic

same there that didn't get up

one exception being same-sex marriage

which I want to get to in a second

but the reason that I think that's the case

is that the whole word progressive is about change

and people generally don't like change

so it's very easy to scare someone

or convince someone to not vote for change

because it's easier to just stay with the status quo

that's why referendums almost never get up

so then when you look at for example

Brexit did that let's not change

so you play up all the risks, you play up all the downsides

even Donald Trump's campaign around make America great again

that speaks explicitly to things are changing

let's go backwards to the way things were

it's also simple without wanting to sound too partisan about it

it doesn't necessarily mean anything

like it's kind of vague like the Brexit one is a good example

the leave campaign for Brexit was take back control

so three-word slogan right

what does that mean?

it doesn't really mean what it means

that was a change wasn't it?

yes that was a change

whereas the stay didn't really have a slogan

it was just remain let's remain

so that was a case where people voted for change

but I was reading some analysis that said

in a case like the voice

because it is a relatively complicated issue

and I know that it's not a complicated issue

when you break it down but the idea of changing the constitution

and then it leading to this body

you have to get your head around a couple of things

and to your point about people don't like change

the yes campaign has a harder job

because they've got to make like a cohesive narrative

of what this is and why you should want it

whereas the no campaign can benefit from the confusion

that most people have

and that's kind of the same

with take back control

or I'm not necessarily comparing them to political issues

but it doesn't really mean anything

but it sounds like something you want to do

and it's quite straightforward

and I think that with the no don't know vote no

it just benefits from all the confusion and the noise

I remember a few years ago I listened to the most extraordinary podcast episode

about why the gay rights movement

has managed to make so much progress

in such a relatively short period of time

compared to any other civil rights movement

and the reason that it explained for this

is that when people started to come out

probably kicked off by Ellen DeGeneres

to be honest and around that time

because so many people were closeted before then

suddenly people realised

oh my mum, my daughter, my friend, my work mate

my sister, my brother

people suddenly discovered that there were gay people

that they knew that they already loved

so the love was already there

and when we had the referendum for marriage equality

it personally touched almost everybody in Australia

because by then almost everybody could say that they

knew and probably loved someone

and they could say okay I want them to have the same rights as me

so in that case it was quite simple

whereas because Indigenous people are such a small percentage of the population

there's a lot of confusion and a lot of disengagement

because there are a lot of people who've never even met someone who's Indigenous

let alone have them in their family or in their social circle or in their workplace

when all the researchers come out about how disengaged people are

I think that's a big explanation for it

Interestingly what we know about social psychology

is that the way to beat stigma

and to kind of overcome issues like homophobia

in the example of the same-sex marriage plebiscite

is those personal experiences and personal connections

and where the no campaign has gone

is really platforming and focusing on Indigenous Australian voices saying no

it's kind of that simple

And I think that's why so many non-Indigenous people are nervous

about voting on an issue that doesn't directly affect them

or about which they don't have enough information or lived experience

But I would argue that in every case

when you're ever being asked to vote for anything

you're voting for a whole nation like a whole bunch of people

you're not only voting on

it's like what kind of world do you want to live in

what kind of country do you want to live in

what do you want for everybody around you?

I mean of course we're motivated by our own personal pocket

my backyard, all the rest of it

but I think that the issue is about

how do you get the message to be clear enough

that says this is good for everybody

if that's what your message is

if that's what the yes campaigns message is

is that this is good for everybody

it's good for the nation

it's good for Australia

it's good for us in the eyes of the world

all those things

that's the message you've got to get out there

and I would argue that as Claire said at the beginning

it's harder to sell a positive message

than a negative one which is so counter-intuitive

the only time I could think of a really positive message was

Obama's yes we can

and that was a moment in time

and that was a moment in time right

is a positive motion forward like yes

and again it doesn't really mean anything

but it's got this motion

and I think that if it gets defeated

if it's a no vote

people will study this hard

because how Peter Dutton and his groups really

have managed to take it from a 70% support

to where it is now

is quite the marketing feat

I feel like one of the problems with social media

is that our attention spans

and our worlds have become so small

that somehow watching one Indigenous person

say I don't support the voice

that grabs our attention

and occupies more brain space

than the fact that we know

that has come out of so many polls

that over 80% of Indigenous people support the voice

it's like that one example trumps the fact

of the bigger population statistic

because statistics are less interesting

than a single voice

Out loud as you might already know

but if you don't we did a special episode

with Carly Williams

she is the ABC National Indigenous Affairs Reporter

and she hosts a podcast about the voice referendum

and we got all your questions

because Out Loud has sent us a lot of questions in

and we put them to Carly

and she answered them brilliantly, beautifully, clearly

it's an absolute must listen

if you're still wondering which way to vote

in a few weeks time

Righta Shannon Finlay wrote an article for Mum Mia

over the weekend called

I Have a Fake Instagram

here's why you need one too

In it she explained why everyone should have

a finster, a fake insta or a burner account

Do you have one?

I do

I do have one

Should I admit that?

Yes I do

Great

But a burner account in case you missed it

is an anonymous social media account

that people use for online activities

that they don't want linked to their main account

And it's called Finster

Because it's fake insta

It's a finster

Fake Instagram

It's the kind of account you create

knowing you can delete it at the drop of a hat

it's got no personal information

you are using it for stalking purposes

for gossip purposes

So to be clear of Finster

it doesn't have photos on it

It's not like a fake identity

You're not catfishing anyone

You're not pretending to be someone else

So you make an account and it's just like

Silly girl 101

And there's no photos and it's set to private

Yeah

And you've got no followers and you don't follow anyone

Correct

So

Why?

Shannon explained one purpose of her fake Instagram

and she wrote that she met this guy

and they were casually dating

but then he mysteriously vanished from her

following and follower's

list on Instagram

When she asked him about it

he was like oh lol Instagram hates me

No that's not a thing

So clever Shannon

went obviously I'm going to use my burner account

and follow not just him

he's ex-girlfriend

and I'm going to go really deep

and what she discovered was

This is a lot of work

that this guy and the ex-girlfriend

were interstate together

visiting his parents

so she caught him red handed

and she said

I have saved myself at least a few months

of wasted time

blocked him

and moved on

Imagine how much of my life I might have given to someone

who would be so dishonest

and lack so much integrity

So sleuthing paid off

and her eyes

This is interesting because

my knowledge and understanding of Finster accounts

of which I've heard about for many years

is teenagers using them

to keep things secret from their parents

because often when you let your kids

get their first social account

or go on Instagram

you're like

but I have to follow you

that's how it starts

and then they outsmart you

and they've got Finsters

and they post smiley happy photos

of them doing their homework

on their Finster

and then they have another one

where they're vaping

and you know doing whatever

And then there's also famous people

like Prince Harry's

spiky mouse account

that he used to connect with Meghan Markle

they use fake Instagram accounts

to maintain anonymity

and kind of connect with each other

and Jennifer Aniston admitted

that she had a fake Instagram account

and here's what she said about it

You had a fake Instagram account though didn't you?

It was a stalker account

Yes

When I was thinking about doing this

I sort of figured

it was time to kind of understand the world

and dip my toe into the sort of social media pool

You know the young people

the kids will call that a Finstagram

which is short for fake Instagram

and they mostly have it

They can't even say fake anymore

Bless her

She is such a boomer

I love her

She makes me feel young and hip with the kids

I know

That's so true

So the celebrities use it

you're right

teenagers use it

Mia, do you have fake Instagram

and what do you use it for?

I don't have a fake Instagram

because what I didn't realise

that if you look at someone's stories

they can see

who looked at their stories

they get a list

So I've a couple of times

popped in to watch someone's live or whatever

and it's been hi Mia

and I'm like oh wait

Can you see me?

Yes

And so I did not realise that

I'm more careful now

I've got a friend

starting a fake Insta

to stalk her teenage son's girlfriends

That's the kind of use case

that we're talking about here

So she's thinking

my sons are starting to date

I want to know who they're dating

they would be mortified

if they saw me

looking at their stories

So I'm going to do a fake account

and look at it through that

and I was like

that sounds like a lot of work

and she was like

what could be more important?

She's like I don't understand

how else would I spend my time?

Hard to relate

Clay you've got a recommendation for us

Guys

You need to watch the brand new season

of sex education

it's dropped on Netflix

Hi

I'm Otis Milburn

and I am incredibly awkward

and I struggle with public speaking

and I am also a bit of a mess

I didn't kiss anyone until I was 16 years old

and I've had problems wanking

and fingering

I suffer from anxiety

and I've almost understood

a lot of the time

I've had my heart broken

by people I like

and I've hurt people who like me

So

I am a mess

but I think all teenagers are

and I think that's why it's so important

that we can talk

And I don't care what anyone says

because there has been some criticism of it

and I'm not listening

Tell me

why I should keep growing

because I'm a little

fatigued by it

it feels a little samey

I loved the first season

second season was quite good

I dropped off in season two

Yeah

Absolutely love it

So it's the British teen sex comedy drama

following Otis

who's an awkward high school student

who gives sex advice to his peers

and his group of friends

and I just think it is

the most fresh

original piece of television

Very explicit

in recent years

So explicit

The first season I thought

it was one of the most

interesting things I've seen

I always get anxiety

when I'm watching something

set in a high school though

because I'm like

they're going to age out

they're going to be

so many seasons

how have they handled that college?

Yeah

Yeah

I can understand

if people have tuned out

and I think I know why

Otis

is actually the weakest link

The main character is the weakest link

It's the supporting characters

who are the greatest

So it's Eric

his best friend

who is just a talent

unlike any other

In this season

he's suddenly cool

at their new school

There's Maeve

who's studying in the US

and she's plunged into

this whole new world

There's Adam

who's one of my favourite characters

just the most believable

teenage boy

who's dropped out of school

started a job on a farm

has no idea what he's doing

There are storylines

that you do not see

anywhere else on television

and you are fascinated

Like what?

Okay

So in one of the very early episodes

there's a guy

who is receiving a blowjob

from a girl

and she sticks her finger

up his bum

and he orgasms

and then he has this whole crisis

about whether he's a gay man

and I'm like

that's really interesting

Yeah

I found that a lot

to look at

I think it's so fresh

It's what it was doing

that kind of stuff

in the 90s

That's true

What it does really well

is inclusivity and diversity

Like it depicts that

in such a positive way

and some people

some of the criticism

about this season in particular

is that it's gone too far

and that it feels a bit self-conscious

how inclusive it is

Some people have said

that it feels a bit

like a box-chicking exercise

Which I disagree

I think it's self-aware

I think it knows what it's doing

and it knows what it's trying to portray

I have only one question

Is Gillian Anderson still there?

Yes, of course

And she's a new mum

She's got baby Joy

She's very stressed

Hannah Gadsby's in it

Hannah Gadsby's like a radio producer

You just have to watch it

It is so funny

and I just want the out loudest

to watch it

and then I want to talk about it

Tell us what you think out loud

Sex Education Season 4

is on Netflix

and if you're looking

for something else to listen to

last week

on our subscriber episode

we had an emergency meeting

about the direction of the show

and we got a bit honest

and it was a bit

I wouldn't be foe

but there was certainly

some disagreement

the topics we love to talk about

and the topics that we love

and they're very different topics

There's a link in the show notes

if you want to listen to that

right now

Thank you for listening to

Australia's number one

news and pop culture show

This episode was produced

by Emily Gazillas

The assistant producer

is Tali Blackman

with audio production

by Leah Porges

Goodbye

Bye

Shout out to any Mamma Mia

subscribers listening

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and you want to support us

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There's a link in the episode description

Machine-generated transcript that may contain inaccuracies.