Mamamia Out Loud: The Epidemic Of Self-Diagnosing

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So while we're waiting for Jessie to have a baby, I've got a fringe.

Yeah, you're in your anxiety.

I can't believe I've got a fringe without Holly being here

because you know Holly's been talking about it for a really long time.

Alfie, I notice you've got a fringe.

I do, yes.

And you've got cow licks, like me.

I didn't have cow licks all the time and then they grew in

and I used to have a fringe that was unimpeded and didn't need, you know, the drying down.

It's very frustrating.

It's like getting a pet, getting a fringe.

Yes.

It's a lot of work.

When I saw your newsletter come through that said I got a fringe,

I thought, I love that I get this in my inbox.

Correct.

It's such breaking news.

It is.

But also,

I should have said breaking.

Your fringe is not as offensive as I thought it would be.

No, it's not as full as you.

It's not a full fringe.

Well, because it won't.

Because my cow licks are just like, fuck this.

We're not interested.

But I do love it as a side fringe moment.

Do you?

I love that for you.

And then I woke up and it was gone because like my cow lick is just so aggressive.

No, I really, it frames your face beautifully.

Anyway, thank you.

Mamma Mia out loud!

Hello and welcome to Mamma Mia Out Loud,

what women are actually talking about on Monday, the 3rd of July.

I'm Mia Friedman and I remain in the driving seat on this podcast

while Holly Wainwright is still away in Borneo with the orangutans.

I'm Claire Stevens.

I'm Elfie Scott and I'm not unlike an orangutan in many ways.

Well, I'm glad you said it.

No, you're not.

You're gorgeous.

Your arms are much shorter than an orangutan.

On the show today, does Google say that you have ADHD or OCD?

Did TikTok tell you that you're lactose intolerant?

The idea that getting a formal diagnosis for your medical condition is a privilege,

has taken hold in a way that's either overdue or disturbing,

depending on your point of view.

Plus, here comes the bride and there goes her marriage.

A wedding photographer has shared the red flags that they see

that point to a future divorce.

And it's time to stop firing your friends.

Here's what you should try to do instead

when you experience friendship dilemmas.

But first, we have breaking beverage news.

In case you missed it, the hugely popular artificial sweet na aspartame,

which is used in products like Diet Coke

and sugar-free products like ice cream and chewing gum,

is going to be declared a possible cancer risk to humans.

So this comes out of a safety review of a aspartame

that was conducted by the International Agency for Research on Cancer,

or IARC, which is the World Health Organization's cancer research arm.

And they've basically conducted a big review of it,

and next month they're going to publish the listing.

But before people panic, the label basically means

that there is some evidence linking it to cancer,

but that evidence is limited.

There are two more serious rankings above that category

of possibly carcinogenic to humans that aspartame will fall into,

including probably carcinogenic to humans

and carcinogenic to humans.

So it is not a top priority here.

It is not listed as a huge danger.

Tobacco would be carcinogenic to humans.

Yes, absolutely.

And even red meat falls into a category that is above aspartame.

Interestingly.

The thing I find fascinating about this

is that there's a lot of debate from researchers

because that finding that it is possibly carcinogenic

doesn't take into account the amount a person would consume.

I remember learning for every go because I've always looked into this

because I am a Diet Coke Zero drinker and paranoid about it.

You'd have to drink a lot of it.

To find a lot.

About 15 cans a day to see any kind of carcinogenic impact.

And when they study it in mice,

you can obviously give them a crazy amount.

However, I do think it's interesting that it's possibly carcinogenic,

but the more I looked into this over the weekend,

anxiety, depression, it's linked to a whole lot of things.

There's some studies that show it's got a correlation with cancer,

but a lot of those cancers are obesity related.

I was going to say, right?

And there is evidence that this kind of chemical

can actually make you put on weight

because of the artificial sweetener diet.

Even though they're not interesting,

they're used in diet drinks like Diet Coke,

Red Bull sugar-free Coke Zero, Pepsi Max, all of those.

Because it makes you crave real sugar.

Wait, so chugging those three cans of Coke Zero a day that I do

may not necessarily be good for me for that reason?

Exactly.

I'm often chugging the Coke Zero

and then I'm like, you know what I feel like?

Chocolate.

It's probably better for you.

Eight signs of ADHD in women that no one ever talks about.

Three things I had no idea were symptoms of my OCD.

Here's five signs you're probably autistic.

You have an intense fear of letting others down or saying no.

You miss or don't understand when people are being sarcastic

or passive-aggressive or hinting towards something

because you always just plainly say what you mean

and you expect everyone else to.

No matter what you do, you don't feel good enough.

It used to be that the only way to know for sure

that you had a mental health condition

was to be formally diagnosed by a health professional.

But some people are claiming that that is a form of privilege

and they're insisting that self-diagnosis is just as good.

It can all be summed up by a post on Reddit recently

that said getting a diagnosis is a privilege

and self-diagnosis is valid.

It's no one's job to police others' diagnoses,

self-diagnosis is valid for many of those conditions.

Getting a diagnosis is a privilege.

Now, the bad faith argument about this

is that people, particularly Gen Z,

are using what they see on TikTok to self-diagnose

things like autism and ADHD

and some physical chronic illnesses in an effort to be special.

There have been articles with headlines like

addicted to being sad, teenage girls with invisible illnesses

and known as spoonies post-tiktoks of themselves crying

or in hospital to generate thousands of likes.

Another headline is dangerous new TikTok trend

encourages teens to diagnose themselves

with rare personality disorders.

These articles really do claim that teenagers on TikTok

and young women as a group more generally

self-diagnose as part of a trend

or to get out of responsibilities

or to simply get attention.

But the good faith argument is that many people

who want to be diagnosed don't do it out of choice

or a desire for attention but out of necessity

because formal evaluations can be really expensive

and waiting lists can be really long.

So for something like ADHD, for example,

you have to be diagnosed by a psychiatrist,

you can't just be diagnosed by a GP

and it can take a really long time to get into C1

and then it can be quite expensive.

There was an article this week in the Michigan Daily

about the epidemic of self-diagnosing.

Where do you stand?

Looking at the big picture, the problem is that we have

a mental health crisis and a barrier to care crisis

and they're colliding.

Young people are experiencing unprecedented levels

of psychological distress and that's in tandem

with an increased cost of living,

wait times to see mental health professionals and so on.

So I do not blame people

for seeking out mental health information where they can

and we have evidence that this wave of self-diagnosis

we're seeing can have positive outcomes.

So Mia, your diagnosis started with a self-diagnosis

because you read an article on mum Mia

and identified so strongly with it.

No, but that wasn't self-diagnosis.

I didn't say I've got ADHD.

I said some of those things sound familiar.

I'm going to go and talk to a professional

before I try to seek medication

and you can't get medication for ADHD without a diagnosis

because I didn't then go and make an announcement

and tell people that I had ADHD

before it was confirmed by a medical professional.

Now does that make me privileged

and does that mean that my diagnosis is no more valid

than someone who's just watched some TikToks?

I would disagree with that.

I would say that it's important to be diagnosed

by a health professional.

I think it's interesting that in your case

there was something in popular culture

that kind of triggered that thought

that you may need to look into this.

However, studying abnormal psychology,

which I did at uni,

we had a joke that every mental disorder you studied

you diagnosed yourself with

because that is the nature of confirmation bias.

You look at something you instantly dismiss

the things that don't apply to you.

You really highly connect with the things that do

and by the end we all dark humor

laughed about the amount of different types

of diagnoses we had.

It was honestly quite impressive.

I have a good friend who went to her psychologist

to say she'd seen some content around ADHD

and she thought she might have it

and he essentially said to her

that in order to be diagnosable

a psychological disorder

must interfere significantly with our ability to function

in major aspects of life

like relationship, school, work

or the ability to experience pleasure.

He basically looked at her

and said whatever symptoms you have

I've been working with you for a long time

and I do not see that impairment

and I thought that was really fascinating.

How did she feel about that?

She totally agreed.

Totally agreed.

This kind of relatable mental health content

is often really misleading.

It's interesting that on TikTok for example

you have qualified medical professionals

sharing their insights alongside absolute random people

who are sharing kind of their own thoughts

and often we're presenting experiences

or symptoms as really binary.

So if you experience this thing

it means you fall into this category

and that is not how any health professional

would diagnose a mental illness.

I want to just draw a slight distinction

between mental illness and neurodiversity

and some of these other things

because it's one thing to say

I have anxiety or I have depression

another to say I've got OCD

and another again to say I've got long COVID

or I'm celiac without a formal diagnosis

and I would say they're different things.

I think in every case there is a level of danger

that comes with that self diagnosis

A, from the fact that when you are fixated

on a particular diagnosis you dismiss other information

so it could be that you're missing other things

about your symptoms that could point to something else

and the other thing is that it can be self fulfilling.

Once you tell yourself that you have ADHD

and I am saying this as someone who has done this

been on TikTok enough and just gone I 100% have this

you start to identify those things

I've even noticed in my behaviour

if I procrastinate I think oh yeah that's just something

people with ADHD do without thinking

procrastination is a normal human behaviour.

Have you ever self diagnosed yourself

or do you have people in your life that have?

I do have people in my life who have self diagnosed

and I do agree that there are some dangers associated with it

but I think they're pretty low level Claire

like I think that what you've just outlined

it doesn't speak to me like a worst case scenario

to me all of the coverage denigrating people

who pick up all of this information on TikTok

and self diagnose it's really cynical

and I think that's dangerous in and of itself

because I just don't want to put people in a position

where they feel like they can't pick up

that kind of information from social media

or articles and reflect on themselves

like I do think it's genuinely really really helpful

for a lot of people and it's helped destigmatise

a lot of conditions like we're talking about autism

and ADHD to an extent that we've never seen before

and yes that can be problematic in some ways

and yes there are issues with questioning

the institution of psychiatry

when ultimately we should be relying

on the information of medical professionals

but if I'm given the two options

of like either end of the spectrum

I'm happy here and I'm happy in a place

where people feel as though they can get that information

about themselves and maybe you know

think about things that are impairing them

and things that they are having trouble with

but I would also say that even if people end up in a place

where they're self diagnosing and they're incorrect right

like say somebody says you know I have ADHD

I'm wearing it as a label I'm doing all of the things

even if they don't actually have ADHD

there are other questions to ask about

the pressure that they're under

the emotional stability of that person

the reasons they feel isolated

and want to be part of an internet community

like I think that it sort of points to other parts of life

as well that we should probably be taking seriously

I think I've got two problems with it

and they're quite personal which is interesting

because I think that observing my own reaction to it

it pisses me off because it's like

no but I have the real thing

and I feel like if everyone can just go

oh yeah I've got ADHD or I've got OCD

it's like that dilutes it

for the fact that I've got a proper diagnosis

but how does it actually

I'm interested in how you think it actually affects you

that's such a good point because of course it doesn't

like a million people can say they've got ADHD

and really it's my personal experience with it

and how I treat it

I feel like it's then taken less seriously

because you know it's not the same

having a doctor say that you've got a thing

like I feel no but I've got official

you know like people have on their on their Instagram handles

me a freedman official

I'm like I want some kind of blue tick for my ADHD

and then the other thing that I think rankles

is this idea of diagnosis privilege

and we've talked about this in regards to fertility privilege as well

I think the reason that I often feel so defensive

when that word is used is that it implies that you're lucky

I understand that I am luckier

than someone who can't afford to pay for medication

and someone who can't afford to see a specialist

but it doesn't feel very lucky

and it implies that I should be like grateful

and I know that when this has come up before

and there was some discussion in the out loudest group

there were comments and everyone felt like

they had to just acknowledge their privilege

and there was one woman who said

I know I'm so lucky that I can afford

ADHD medication for my son

and I'm like no that's not lucky

like if you're seeing yourself as lucky

and not someone who's in a really difficult situation

because she was saying I can just struggle

I work three jobs so that I'm lucky enough

to afford medication for my son

and I'm like I don't want to live in a world

where that's considered lucky and that person has to go

oh no don't worry about me I'm one of the lucky ones

but I don't think the enemy in that situation

and the people having these conversations

I think the enemy are all of the pitfalls

of the mental health care system

like that's the real issue

it's not necessarily people talking on TikTok

My worry is that once you self-diagnose

where do you go from there?

I want to hear from out louders who either have experience

or obviously thoughts about this

but also from health professionals

who must be faced all the time

with people coming in and announcing

that they have various conditions

and really wanting the doctor to confirm it

and I wonder like your friend Claire

what happens when someone's quite insistent

that they have something and you're like

well you actually don't

how much it sort of becomes part of your identity

We'll put a link in the show notes to our Facebook group

and our Instagram page where you can tell us what you think

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to the carbon or fridge conundrum for tomato sauce

Simply look at the label

It says refrigerate after opening

Face closed

Caroline Collingwood mother of the brother

Oh hi, I'm Stewie

So how long do you give it?

I'd say forever

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Just a cheeky icebreaker

Recently I keep seeing stories

and Reddit threads and conversations in Facebook groups

about wedding photographers who claim

they can identify red flags in your marriage

just from what they observe on the wedding day

A Reddit user recently asked

Wedding photographers, what was your

they're not going to last long moment

Oh god

And I'm so fascinated because I put myself back

to my wedding day and think what did my photographers think

But here were some examples

Third wedding and the best man, the groom's brother

starts his speech

Well, welcome back everyone

Good to see some new faces and some old ones

And another said

Ask the groom in a recorded interview

why he asked her to marry him

and he said the pressure to get married

They lasted less than two months

Two months?

Yeah

Groom didn't want to participate in any wedding pictures

after the ceremony

I believe he was more interested in drinking beers

with his buddies

One said that he had been a wedding photographer

for about five years and

totally understands people being awkward

with PDA and on camera

But he said when prompting couples

for fun poses a few times

they visibly don't want to be near each other at all

Once the shots done, they go back to standing

a foot apart

They would complain about each other

and make fun of each other in front of me

That's devastating

Another one said about halfway through the reception

I hear the groom laughing

I peeked over his way and could see two groomsmen

hauling the thrushing and

screaming bride towards the lake

They threw her into the freezing cold water

with her veil and dress still on

Her hair and makeup

and probably the dress were ruined beyond repair

That's grounds for murder

That's grounds for murder

That ain't funny

Some other red flags floating around include

a spouse taking photos

without their partner

So wanting photos of their family

Just without their partner

Hey, can I just have one with the pants, mate?

Okay

Speeches that completely leave out

one of the spouses

Oh, God

What do you mean?

So father of the bride gets up

and speaks exclusively about the bride

doesn't even acknowledge the groom

Oh, yeah, right

And not spending time

with your actual spouse at the wedding

which I hear a lot about

that especially the guys

can end up having it just be a bit of a party

with their friends

and they're not interested in spending time with their partner

I'm going to speak out in defensive

couples that look like they can get a divorce

because of the things the photographer said

I think that weddings

by the nature are very

bride focused

By the time you get there

I think that for a lot of couples

there is a lot of stress

there is a lot of pent-up resentment

I think that it's a little bit like

in a lot of weddings

the groom is very much a side character

and it's perhaps

they might see a side of their partner

through the wedding planning

and on the wedding day

that is not divine

I mean some of those things obviously

if you're with someone that endorses you being thrown in a lake

that's disqualifying

but for some men

and for some women but for some

a lot of men

being the centre of attention in the way you are at your wedding

is a lot

posing for the photographer

and like come on now just make a scrum

now do the can-can

for all the photos stuff

I find that difficult

Elfie

I haven't seen this in person

but I also think yeah

it can just be really awkward

and some people do not have those personalities

like I went to the wedding

of a very close couple friend

and I don't think they talked about each other

in their speeches

and it wasn't because they didn't love each other

it's just because they found it so

apparently fucking awkward

that they did not want to talk about love

in front of their friends

so I am also in defence of those people

but I am wondering

when you say that you were worried about your own behaviour

on your wedding day

and like how that could have reflected Paulie on your relationship

does any particular moment jump out at you Claire?

I think like our photographer

was bloody amazing

but do you do feel very

watched and the whole day feels performative

like you feel like

you have to be looking in each other's

eyes the right way throughout the ceremony

and in the photos

you need to kind of have the right banter

and you can't

you know how you might say to somebody like

oh don't touch me there

you can't say that because it's your wedding day

and also there's usually a videographer

yes, yes

I am kind of guilty of doing this

in day to day life

I love sitting with a couple

and walking away and saying they're going to break up

that's my favourite thing

that makes me so self conscious because I think about that all the time

so I was

at dinner a little while ago

and we kind of met a new couple

and

they had just got married

and I heard the story about their wedding day

and basically they were on

two completely different pages

one left the wedding at 9 o'clock

and went to bed, the guy went out

and partied all night and I was like

Rory, they're done

but then... Were they done?

No, I think they were perfectly happy

but then the other night I was out to dinner with friends

and

I was talking about a couple friend of hers

who are always

all over each other and super, super

in love and I became really self conscious

that Rory and I had sat there the whole night

we're not holding hands, we're at dinner

we're focused on our lamb

I totally get that

also when you've had a tiff before dinner

and you're so worried that everybody's

going to extrapolate from that

you're like oh god, we're just fighting, it's normal

I think we've all been to weddings

where you've gone, I just don't see it

I just don't see this one

lasting

in defence of the not mentioning each other too much

in the speeches

what I've noticed with weddings is that now the vows

are very much personalised

and about you're the this and you're the that

and when we met and I promised to do this

so that's kind of the time

and then the actual speeches are much less

lovey-dovey than they used to be

because that's kind of been done

we've ticked that box

I don't know, have you been to a wedding

elfie where you've gone, it's not going to work

no, but I haven't been

to that many weddings, I've got to say

I think I've been to like far less weddings

than the average person, but you're only

30 so you're heading into wedding season now

yeah, yeah, I'm sure I'm going to see

a lot more of them but has anybody else

been to one of those?

I reckon I've been to

one where I thought

exactly what you said Mia, where you look at it

and you go, I don't get it

I don't see it

however, that marriage didn't end

and they're perfectly happy

just because they don't express love in the same way

that I do does not mean that it's wrong

I know a couple who

all of his friends referred

to his partner as

first wife before they even got married

wow

indeed she was

mother Mia out loud

if you want to make

mum Mia out loud part of your routine

five days a week, we release segments

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just for mum Mia subscribers

to get full access follow the link

in the show notes and a big thank you

to all our current subscribers

and in this article

the author Olga Kazan

goes on to describe modern

friendship breakdowns

how paragraphs of text are shared back and forth

there's a kind of friendship performance

review and the reason

we reach these precipices

is because as Olga put it

you write the rules of the friendship

as the friendship unfolds

it's not like a relationship there's no discussion

of expectations at the beginning

so it makes it even messier when those friends

start to meet your needs or you don't meet theirs

but the author does

posit a different theory don't fire

your friends just make more

of them she said that if you're struggling

with a friendship that doesn't meet your expectations

just make new friends that will

expand the circle

now before I get into my issue with this

advice I wanted to ask you

Mia is the solution just that easy

should we be making more friends

I've been reading a book about friendship

actually over the weekend Elizabeth

Day's book and she talks

about how friends

are her big passion in her life and she talks

about one friendship in particular

that ended

and it was either in this article

or in her book that they talk about that

big text that you get

in a friendship where it's like oh

okay it's kind of like and this and this

and this and this and it's like things can be

bubbling away I've

talked about getting to this point

with different friendships and I tend to

be the euthanasia model I

don't do friendship breakups

and friendship confrontations

I prefer death by neglect because I just

think it's kind of kinder you're ghosting

people and I don't ghost them it's just

more like ever so

slowly give them more and more morphine

until they drift away and it's sort of

that so that there's no big confrontation

I remember getting to

a point with one friendship where

it was all those big long chunks of text

and we just decided

to have a break like Ross and Rachel

and friends

we were on the break

we just went let's not talk

for a month or two months I knew

that we were about to pass the point of no return

it sort of did the trick

and we got it back but I think

the older you get the more you realise that

friendships need work

that would be my

hesitation in the idea of just make more

because

the idea is that the depth

of your friendships are something

you really have to consistently work on

I have never ever

fired a friend

I've had neglect like that friends have neglected

me I've neglected them

but I have kind of moved

towards the type of friendships that are very

low maintenance I go

for people because I'm low maintenance

I am happy to be friends

with someone who you might not see for a few months

and that's fine I don't think I could

have a friend that was

super super needy

because it just wouldn't be compatible

with who I am and I think that that's the other

reason is that

the whole thing about the wall of text

that's me and Jesse's

that is just our messages to each other

I'm just really disappointed with what you've been like lately

it's just constant so we do that

to each other

and I almost think that because

of the kind of intimacy I've got with Jesse

which is similar to a partner

in that you're always holding each other to account

I don't do it with other people because that would be so inappropriate

wow that's so interesting

so inappropriate

do you ever have therapy for two of you

we really need it

or do you just talk about each other a lot with your own therapist

talk about it

and they're clearly like you have a toxic

and I'm like she's also my favourite friend

but that lack of confrontation

you were talking about me and kind of a friendship ending

by neglect

I worry about that because the nature

of really good relationships

is

rupture and repair

you have to have that confrontation

in order to have a conflict

you then resolve and that's what makes any kind

of relationship stronger

if you are kind of

neglecting it or not getting to that level

where you can have it out

is it just a shallow friendship

but what if it's just run its course

you know that idea of friendships being for a reason

what if it's a reason or a season friend

and that season is coming to an end

so is there much point in having

a big

you don't understand my lifestyle

anymore and I've got a child and you don't

and that's not going to change

it's just the end of a time

that's really emotionally taxing as well

to engage in that conversation right

like if I think about it I get tired

I would never want to get to that point with somebody

my hesitation would be that if

you are trying to

avoid conflict to the point where

if there's going to be conflict in a relationship

you're like I'll just start

new relationships then that's not a very

sustainable way of developing deep friendships

I think that we might be giving it a little bit short

shrift what Olga Kazan said

she's not like

I'll just replace you and I'll replace you

it's more like if Elfie and I

are really close because we used to party

all the time and then I go and have kids

and she's like

she's gone and had kids and we don't

understand each other anymore what I need to do

is find a friend

who's got kids so that I don't expect that of Elfie

and that we can when we can

still go out and have fun together

but I'm not demanding so much

of her I'm getting different

needs met by different friends

does that make sense Elfie are you just tired still

I mean I'm a little bit tired but she has

this good line where she says healthy friendship is better

imagined as crowd surfing with many

hands holding you up I agree

with this idea to some extent like I do

agree you get different things from different people

but my issue

with it as well is that I just think it's kind

of a cynical approach to loving

somebody I don't know

when I have a friendship like I just want to be

able to love them holly and fully

and like keep them in my life

in a really big dedicated way

and maybe that's a bit too idealistic

but like I don't just want like pick and

choose parts of people for like my different

demands I think that that's kind of

how many close friends like what is your friendship

circle look like see this is the other

issue I have too many people in my life at the moment

and I can't keep them in my calendar

he's going to get caught

this is the issue

I have three best

girlfriends from high school as well as

three other best friends who I would

consider in like the closest circle

but then I've just got like lots of couple friends

lots of different things happening it's

a lot for a single person's calendar I

don't know how you're supposed to deal with this many people

and that's the other issue with this argument is that

you can't maintain that many people in a

dedicated way and I don't think you're meant

to and kind of historically

our social networks have grown so

so so much because of the internet

because of social media there are people

we were never meant to still be in touch

with

and in Victorian England

you had your

very small

group of people family

and a few close friends who you saw

really really regularly and if people moved away

you never saw them again

you didn't and you were like it was nice

I'll buy

and maybe you'd run into them on a walk

so is this the problem that we never cut anyone

loose because we don't have to

we always have

the text, the WhatsApp group

we always have the group

the Instagram post whatever for us to

like comment on and stay connected

how many group chats are you maintaining

at the moment because I've got like

five I don't know how to be in all of them

oh two Matthew

how many do you have

a million and there's lots of different iterations

I've got one

with Jesse and Luca

and then I've got another one with

Jesse, Claire and Luca and then I've got

one with Jesse and Claire

and then I've got a Claire one and I've got a Jesse one

and I've got a Luca one so that's just with

three people I think that's like eight different

group chats and they all have very specific

functions and then we've got some

group chats that we're all in together with other

people probably about eight more of those

and so yeah

it can get really complicated

before we

go I have a quick recommendation that came

via an outlet called Ann Stevens

who over the weekend when I was looking

for something to watch and nothing could hold

my attention suggested a

show on iView on the ABC

which you can watch for free

it's hosted by David Wenham and it's a series

called the ABC of and the format

is that David Wenham who is

an actor but also just a great

presenter interviews

a famous person

and grabs footage out of the ABC

archive so it's a little bit like this is your life

but without guests

he shows them little clips

and they have to talk about it

they've done two episodes so far the first one

was on Julia Gillard but the one I

watched based on Ann's recommendation

was Germaine Greer

you've long been a controversy magnet

have you said anything

in your life that you've regretted

I'm sure I have

but I don't think I've brewed on it

say it forget it write it

progress it

I think it's better

not to regret it if you said it

and if it has a relevance

but you've mis-aimed it

then register the fact

learn from it try again

and it was amazing and really

worth watching because

Germaine is

quite old now

and she seemed

freiler than I've ever seen her

but still feisty

they went back to the beginning of

her career as an author

and as a feminist

icon basically and ground breaker

and all the way up to now so

it's so funny you just see her like

who's that and then other time she's like

moved to tears and

it's really beautiful it's called the ABC of

and it's on ABC Eye View

if you're looking for something else to listen to

and if you're a fan of Sex and the City

then go and have a listen to

our special recap of episode 3

of and just like that

God it's good come along for the ride

a link to that episode is in the show notes

thank you for listening to Australia's

number one news and pop culture show

this episode was produced by Emily

and Suzanna Makin the executive producer

is Eliza Ratliff with

Audio Production by Leah Porges

we'll see you in years tomorrow

bye

Machine-generated transcript that may contain inaccuracies.