Mamamia Out Loud: The Dirty Details Of Gwyneth's Sex Life

You're listening to a Mamma Mia podcast.

Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters that this podcast is recorded on.

Hello and welcome to Mamma Mia Out Loud.

It's what women are talking about on Monday, the 8th of May.

I'm Holly Wainwright.

I'm Mia Friedman.

And I'm Jesse Stevens.

And on the show today.

I'm the only one who wasn't cancelled this week.

This weekend.

This weekend.

Sorry.

It was a big one.

Yeah.

So on that.

Mia and I are in trouble.

And it's all thanks to King Charles and Queen Camilla.

Also, ranking ex-lovers.

Oh my God.

This was better than the coronation for me.

Gwyneth Paltrow did it last week.

Calling out all her exes.

But is that okay?

But first, Mia.

In case you missed it, the nation is divided over the contents of a box of chocolates.

If you're in the market for a box of Cadbury favourites, which I always am.

Always.

Always.

They have dropped flake and dream from the selection.

I don't know why we're not talking about this more.

And do you know what they're replacing it with?

Is caramilk and twirl.

And people are outraged.

I'm actually really impressed.

I think dream is a waste of space.

I would have also replaced the Turkish delight.

Oh, it's hush now.

Flake is the top of the tree.

And the thing is, is the reason you know that it is, is the last time I had favourites,

which was a lot over Christmas.

I tipped them out to find the flakes.

And they would often only be one because it's high star.

Don't you find that a flake is a little crummy?

No, not if you put it all in your mouth at once.

Which is what you do.

The funny thing is that a flake and a twirl are actually literally the same chocolate.

That's true.

They have the same ingredients.

They're actually not.

They are actually not.

And I went deep on this research.

This is you just saying things without any research.

You've looked at them and you've gone, look the same inside with chocolate on the outside.

No, because there's a TikTok where a man tried to melt them and a flake can be melted

and a twirl cannot.

So it is a different ingredient of chocolate.

Oh, this is important.

Yes, you took the wrapper off both.

There is something different about a twirl.

It's not as crummy.

I actually prefer a flake, but I'll also do a twirl.

I love a flake.

I like a dream because there are times when I can't have chocolate before bed

because it will make me not sleep.

But white chocolate has no caffeine in it.

That's strange.

So you can.

But when there's more, I haven't seen it.

Is that a fact?

Have you fact checked that too, Jesse?

Does that sound real?

There's a huge, this huge shakeup has made headlines around the country

as the cost of living crisis is blamed for the now smaller boxes.

So it's not just that what's inside is changing.

The box used to be 570 grams and it's been replaced with a box that is 50 grams lighter.

I didn't want to say anything, but I was in a shopping centre over the weekend

and I thought it looked smaller.

Australia has confirmed the speculation.

They have cited soaring manufacturing costs and exacerbating this shrinkflation distress

among chocolate lovers around the nation.

Yes, caramel and twirl.

I don't really feel like I've got any feelings about caramel.

I feel like it's the new top deck.

I can't bear white chocolate in any form, so no white chocolate in mine.

I discovered over Christmas and it's very hard to find.

It's sort of like the Holy Grail, but I like dark chocolate

and you can get a whole box of favourites in dark chocolate.

No, you can't.

Yes, you can.

And that made my life, but it's very, very hard to find.

So I'm just putting it out there.

Now you can all waste your lives trying to find it.

Is there an old gold in favourites?

Yes, there is.

There's also a moro and moros are quite controversial.

Why didn't moro get the flick?

Because I hate them.

Out loudest.

What would you take out?

If you've got to take out two, what would they be?

Go.

Three chairs for His Majesty, the King and Her Majesty, the Queen.

Hip-hop!

Hip-hop!

Hip-hop!

Hip-hop!

Hip-hop!

Hip-hop!

Mia and I got in a bit of trouble on Saturday night

for different but related reasons.

I like how it sounds like we were out on the town.

We got arrested.

I know.

You were both at home.

That's really not what happened.

I'm not sure if you noticed.

Out loudest.

But it was coronation night.

King Charles got crowned as King of the world.

And I had written an opinion about this, a Republican opinion.

Now, to pull back the curtain a little bit on how these things work,

as a media organisation, you plan your coverage of big events

in advance to a point, right?

So you go, it's the coronation on Saturday.

What are we going to do?

How are we going to cover it?

We had a team of people working new weeks ago

that what I wanted to write for the coronation

was a piece about Australia becoming a republic

and how I hope that King Charles was the last King of Australia.

Now, it often surprises people to know that I'm a Republican

because I know, as an English person who talks about the Royals a lot,

they think, oh, no, you must love them.

But actually, no, I am and always have been a Republican.

And I wanted on this night of all the pomp and ceremony and everything,

which I'm genetically predetermined to respond to.

As soon as I hear that stuff, I have to go and put a kettle on.

That's just how it works from being born.

Make a coronation case.

I wanted to respect that, but also reflect the view

that apparently is held by nearly two-thirds of Australians

varying levels of enthusiasm that it's time to revisit the republic, right?

So I wrote that it wasn't personal.

It wasn't about Charles.

It wasn't about gossip.

It wasn't about Camilla, blah, blah.

But more that the very idea that Australia's head of state

being on the other side of the world

and so directly connected to the empire and colonization

and all these things was a bit on the nose and it was time to move on.

That didn't seem to be what people wanted to read on Saturday night, Mia,

because, holy moly, I got a lot of comments and you posted it on your...

I posted it on mine.

You all did.

And the people came and they got very, very cross.

Why?

To pull back the curtain a little bit more,

we often talk when we're writing opinion pieces and writing, you know,

thought pieces for Mama Mia, have we captured the mood?

Like, have we reflected what the people are thinking at the time they're thinking

and often what you're hoping is that you have reflected the mood.

And I wondered if, well, I know, I think that we missed the mood

a little bit on that because I think in the moment,

people wanted to celebrate what they were seeing

and maybe the next day they might be like,

oh, now I believe you can respect history and culture

and question it, right?

I believe those two things can happen,

but I think maybe my piece wasn't respectful enough.

What are your thoughts?

I disagree.

I think that you spoke for me.

I think you spoke for a lot of people.

I just think that it was one opinion and the people who loved it

and who are very happy for King Charles to be King of Australia

have a different opinion.

And they were very loud.

They were very loud.

They could not tolerate your opinion being out there,

which is kind of symptomatic of this polarizing internet culture we live in

where people, here we say respectfully, we disagree,

but the Coronation fans wanted you to be silent.

It was interesting because that's exactly the response that I got

when I tried to write about the Queen's funeral

and how it was also sort of an event

that could be classified as propaganda.

And I got so much hate.

And I think that it also suggests that there are two sides of the coin,

which is respect, reverence towards this family.

And then on the other side of the coin,

almost isn't protest or having conversations like that.

It's being completely disengaged.

So either you don't watch it and you don't look at it

and you almost have no opinion or you're the other way.

And so at these really seminal moments,

a lot of comments I saw Holly about yours was this isn't the time.

And I kept thinking, we are crowning a new king.

It's like saying that after a mass shooting talking about gun laws,

it's not the time.

It's like, it's the exact right time to use the time.

And it's this insistence that everybody thinks the same way as you do

about everything and this intolerance for someone having a different view.

So when you say you missed the mood,

you just expressed a mood that was different to the people

who were loving the Coronation.

And I'm not winching.

Like, I mean, the thing is, as we all know,

if you express opinions on the Internet

and you're writing about things, you post about things,

of course, you're not always going to be universally people go, yes, absolutely.

I mean, this is exactly why we're there to create conversation

and have conversations and test different ideas.

And so I'm not winching that people didn't agree,

but I was a bit surprised at how vehement the opposition was.

And that does suggest to me, I'm willing to entertain the idea that I was like,

I can respect this and criticize it.

Maybe the respect didn't come through enough.

But speaking of respect, over in another part of Saturday night,

Mia Friedman posted something different and copped

a lot. So Mia, what did you do while the Coronation was on?

And out loudest, please don't think that we're like,

oh, we're upset or poor ass.

This is more just about like, we all write on the Internet

and we all are on line all the time.

And we do this podcast five days a week.

But we're interested in the mood.

Yes. So sometimes you'll say something and you'll know, right?

You'll know that it's going to be controversial.

But then other times you'll get taken completely by surprise.

And that's what's fascinating to me,

the vehemence of something that seems fairly anodyne.

So I didn't even go to the trouble of writing a well thought out piece.

I can't even say that I had an opinion that had been crystallized.

I was actually at a party on Saturday night,

a birthday party for a girlfriend.

And we had the Coronation on in the background.

It was actually a room full of journalists and women.

And we were all watching and, you know,

we'd glance over at the TV every so often.

And then someone had brought a cake and she'd brought a knife

to cut the cake with and it was wrapped in a Diana tea towel.

So she went, oh, I've got a Diana tea towel.

And we're like, where?

And I looked at the Diana tea towel and I went, oh, this is great.

So then I put it in front of the TV, like where the couch was.

So just like hung over the top of the couch so that you could see Diana's face.

I didn't even have a motivation.

Like I didn't think I'll do this to, I just thought.

Avenge the memory of Diana or be horrible to Camilla.

Like I honestly couldn't tell you, I had no thought about it.

It was just, here's Diana.

It's the Coronation.

She knows all these people.

Let's put her near the TV.

What would she think?

Have her part of it.

And then I took a photo and I just posted it.

And I literally said, watching the Coronation.

And at first I said with Old Mate, I deleted that because that Old Mate

seemed disrespectful.

But I do, I feel like Diana is my Old Mate.

I miss her.

I wish she was still around.

Not my actual mate, but you know what I mean.

Anyway, I'm going to read you some of the comments.

That's low.

If you really care for Diana, ask yourself, would she be happy to

have a crumpled image of her face underneath the televised image

of the Coronation of her ex-husband?

The teen towel.

And then Mrs. put up for public scrutiny so you can get some mileage

from the reaction.

So some people were very protective of Diana.

And then others were like, wow, childish and judgmental.

Would expect better from you who appears to be supportive of women.

Maybe put the wine down and go to bed and get ready for an early,

get ready with me while I talk shit video.

Anyone who knows Mia knows she's not on the wine.

And you sprout about equality and respect for women.

You're a joke and an embarrassment.

Who are you disrespecting?

Exactly.

Quite disappointed with this post because I expect better from you

and Mama Mia, disrespectful and distasteful to both women

involved.

Grow up, Mia.

And when you do, be kind.

Feral post.

Grow up.

Not your finest moment.

Anyway, on and on.

Were you upset?

I was just surprised.

And then I was trying to understand, I couldn't work out what

they were saying.

I was like, wait, what do you think I'm doing?

You know what I think.

Some people think I was being mean to Camilla.

Some people were thinking I was being mean to Diana.

There was just the fury.

I think there's a real division that maybe also is underestimated.

And I could put my hand up and say, you know,

I'm sure that I probably underestimated it.

Of whether you view the Royals and all of this stuff,

whether it's Harry and Meghan, whether it's as a sort of

entertainment soap opera that we're watching,

like it's just a story that we're invested in,

or whether you're truly bought into the solemnity of this moment.

Because I think for the people who were watching the coronation,

and I was watching the coronation, and I'll admit,

actually, I surprised myself in being quite moved.

The music, the tradition, the history,

like I was actually quite moved even though it doesn't change

my position on what I think Australia should do.

But I can appreciate it.

If you feel that way about it, like this is very important,

historical context.

These are real people.

They're beloved.

They're chosen by God, perhaps.

It is a religious ceremony, the coronation.

That's why it's in an abbey.

That's why it is intensely disrespectful to view it as just

kind of the Oscars or something.

Jesse, someone else said to me,

how would you feel if someone mocked a Jewish tradition?

And I thought, oh, I don't know if it's the same.

Because I think it's funny what you say, Holly,

about you were moved in the music, because we had it on mute.

Every so often, I'd look up on the television and just go,

this is ridiculous.

Like, you've got these two old human people who were what?

The representatives of God or the head of the church?

Well, he was being, so he's being crowned the King of England,

but he's also being crowned as the head of the Anglican church.

So he's like the kind of Anglican equivalent of the Pope.

That's a clumsy analogy, but it's, you know,

he's the head of the Anglican church.

So it was a royal event, but it's also a religious event.

What did you think, Jesse?

I mean, that's an interesting comparison,

because what happens in a synagogue or a mosque would never be

broadcast across the world.

Because to do so would be to imply some sort of homogeneity

of what, like, everyone thinks about this.

And there were representatives of other religions there.

Exactly. That's exactly right.

Yes. So what was bizarre about it is that people kept saying,

well, if you don't like it, switch it off.

And I was like, no, no, this isn't like watching married at first sight.

Yeah.

Because whether I switch this off or not,

this man is a King of Australia.

And that is very relevant to me and my position as an Australian.

Yes.

The other person who I think experienced this to a different degree

because of his perspective and subjectivity was Stan Grant,

who was on the ABC, had an incredibly fruitful discussion.

It was actually before the coronation and it was called

The Coronation, a discussion about the monarchy in 2023.

And he spoke and a Republican spoke,

and they talked about how it felt and the relevance.

And so many people got angry.

His name was trending on Twitter and there were all these articles

in the Australian and a bunch of papers.

This idea of respect means you can't...

No analysis.

Yeah.

And this is what didn't make sense to me,

is that it was saying you're wingy and you're showing a lot of bias.

And I was thinking, do you think that the BBC or Nine

or whoever else is just broadcasting this plainly

isn't also showing some bias?

Because this whole thing is biased.

Because there was only one perspective that we're hearing

and you've got Stan Grant, an Indigenous man,

his quote was to take this coronation seriously

would be to try and make sense of an Australian Prime Minister

pledging his allegiance to a crown that tried to exterminate my people.

That's exactly right.

In order to have any sort of balanced coverage,

you need Stan Grant's voice.

You do.

And this is what's interesting about this is that,

and I know that some people will listen and say,

you don't have a monarchist on giving that point of view,

but I think your spot on Jesse is that the fact that that is broadcast live

and in Britain, which is a different kettle of fish,

but it was on every single news channel, it was the only thing.

There's a sort of bought in idea of the monarchy

that there are people who are beyond reproach

and there are moments that are beyond reproach, right?

That you cannot criticise these people.

And that's just not realistic and it's not how we live

and it's one of the reasons why, to be honest,

the clock is probably ticking on their relevance.

Because of course they can be analysed and they welcome it.

Like if you actually were paying attention to coronation,

there were a lot of efforts made to make it inclusive and diverse.

Of faith.

More women.

More women than ever before.

There was a gospel choir.

Charles apparently is very keen to be seen as a broader defender of faith

than just Christianity, all these things.

So it's not like this isn't an institution that understands

it's tackling a lot of relevance issues and needs to move with the times.

It does.

It's just, apparently, we're not allowed to say so.

And you know what?

You're allowed to have really enjoyed it

and watch it and go, this is a bit of fun.

And I don't think that you're being scolded.

I don't think that that's helpful.

And if they feel as though people are by talking about a republic

and maybe Stan Grant feels differently,

by criticising a cultural moment doesn't mean that you're making fun

of someone's enthusiasm either.

I think there was a lot of confusion over the weekend.

Anyway, if you are interested in the coronation,

we have recorded a little recap of the big moments

from the three of us available for subscribers right now.

There's a link in your show notes.

Three cheers!

Mother Mia, out loud!

Hip-Hop World!

Hip-Hop World!

Hip-Hop World!

Hip-Hop World!

They want to really relive the good times.

That's what it's there for.

Last week, Holly's problematic best friend, Gwyneth Pacho,

appeared on one of the biggest podcasts in the world.

Call Her Daddy is hosted by Alex Cooper,

who, I googled this, she earns $20 million a year

and she's the biggest female podcaster in the world

and we need pay rise.

She's like a young female Joe Rogan.

She is, exactly right.

It's really interesting because she used to host like a podcast

with a girlfriend that used to be really just about sex.

Like, very quite explicit.

Not her romantic girlfriend, but her business partner.

They had a falling out, so then it became just her podcast.

Spotify bought it and now she's become like an interview show,

whereas she's like the Gen Z female Joe Rogan.

Yes.

Not because she's right-wing or anything or problematic,

but because...

The scale is unimaginable.

So if you want to be cool and reach young women,

that's where you go.

You go on Call Her Daddy.

Her demographic is young, as you say.

So let's say 20 to 35s and clearly Gwyneth wanted to speak to them.

She wanted to sell them some vibrates.

Exactly.

But there's a particular snippet that's been doing the rounds

and making its way into headlines

that I wanted to interrogate with you both.

In the interview, Cooper asked her about her exes,

Brad Pitt and Ben Affleck,

and here's a little of what she said.

OK, we're going to play a game.

Brad or Ben?

It'll be fine.

Brad.

No.

I didn't even ask a question.

Oh, I thought that was the question.

Brad or Ben?

Who was a better kisser?

Gosh, I have to remember so far back.

They were both good kissers.

OK, who was better in bed?

That is really hard,

because Brad was like the sort of major chemistry love of your life,

kind of like at the time, you know?

And then Ben was like technically excellent.

She compares.

What does that mean, do you think?

I think it means that he made her orgasm clitorally.

That's what I think.

Or vaginally.

That's very specific.

Do you think technically excellent meant maybe vaginally orgasm?

No, no, no.

Because I think a clitoral orgasm is as...

You don't have to be...

Is clitorally even a word?

Yes.

I don't think you have to be as proficient

to give a woman a clitoral orgasm

as you do perhaps a vagina orgasm.

I think that he knew what buttons to push, technically.

I think also, given the context of the conversation,

she wasn't going to say anything bad about anybody,

and she just said that Brad Pitt was the best sex of her life.

Well, not of her life,

because her new husband wasn't included in this list.

So she had to say something nice about him.

So technically...

It was in contrast.

She was like, Brad was passion, first love.

Oh, my God.

And Ben was technically excellent.

That was the context.

She compares the exes saying Brad was a better dresser

and more romantic,

whereas Affleck was more likely to make her laugh

and they had more arguments.

She said Brad Pitt was a better actor.

They also played Fuck Mary Kill,

where Gwyneth said she'd marry Chris,

she'd eff Brad, and she'd kill Ben.

It was great compelling content,

well done to all involved,

but here's my question.

Let's say John Mayer is a next guest on Call Her Daddy,

and Alex Cooper asks him to eff Mary Kill his exes.

So Taylor Swift, Jessica Simpson, Jennifer Aniston.

Let's say, hypothetically, he describes Taylor Swift

as technically excellent in bed

and said he fought the most with Aniston.

Let's say he'd killed Jessica Simpson,

Mary Aniston, and eff Taylor.

I think we would all be horrified.

When you have such a public profile,

you're afforded such little privacy.

And my question is,

is it really appropriate to sit on a podcast

and play games like this?

Oh, my God.

It feels very exposing, reductive.

I reckon it changes how you see them.

Holly, what do you think?

I think that's the point.

She wants you to change how you see her.

I don't like it, because...

No, it changes how I see Ben Affleck

and Brad Pitt, who weren't in the room.

I'm sorry, yes.

But that's her story to tell.

John Mayer has been on Call Her Daddy,

and he did talk about his exes,

but he has also learned quite a lot of lessons

about not talking about his exes sexually

in this explicit manner,

because famously, he called Jessica Simpson sexual napalm.

We didn't like that.

And she really didn't like that.

I thought that was a compliment,

but I read her memoir recently,

and there's a lot of chapters about how upset she was about that.

I still can't quite understand,

but I think it's rooted in her religious upbringing.

It changed her brand.

It changed her brand without her consent.

And this is why I would argue it's not the same, right?

Because the reason Jessica Simpson hated that

is it sexualized her enormously.

And suddenly, men are yelling at her in the street,

and everybody wants to,

because they want to have sex with her.

Hang on a second.

When you say it's sexualized her enormously,

I don't want to bring it back to pants again.

But she also did say in her memoir,

she wrote a lot about how,

from the time she signed her first deal,

her record company was sexualizing her.

She was sexualized in videos, in photo shoots,

in the whole way her brand was portrayed.

I don't think that's quite right.

I don't think she had a choice after that.

I think there's a difference.

She was a child at church.

But I understand why she was upset about it.

I think that it definitely takes that out of her hands

and makes her into something that she doesn't want to be.

Would you hate it if an ex of yours came out and said,

Holly was an absolute demon in the sack?

Would you just say I hate it?

Because what it does is it conjures up images in people's minds,

very kind of explicitly,

and my family can hear that.

Well, yeah, that's the other reason why Jessica Simpson hated it.

She was like, it's back to Gwyneth, right?

I know you won't be surprised here,

but I loved that interview so much

because it was funny, it was a reverent, it was fresh.

She starts it.

Gwyneth's there with her daughter.

She brings Apple.

And Apple says to Alex Cooper, go hard, roast her,

ask her everything, right?

And so Gwyneth's like showing off a bit to her daughter.

She also says that her daughter,

Apple, learnt about sex from Alex Cooper, right?

So the show has a sexual energy to it.

That's how it started.

That's in its DNA.

Because Alex is very explicit about her own sex life.

If we're here, we're going there.

I couldn't believe that she was asking Gwyneth those questions.

I was dying.

I was loving it and dying at exactly the same time.

I was like, you can't ask her that.

And I reckon she handled it when you actually listen

as well as you possibly can.

Because she didn't say anything mean about anybody.

She only gave compliments.

You know what I mean?

So she made a big point of saying that she didn't want to kill

any of them.

You know so much better than this.

It was all planned.

Yeah, of course.

But I loved it.

I loved it.

I did too.

And I felt the same way as you.

I was like, I think she handled it as well as she could.

No, but she knew every question that was coming.

No, of course she did.

But she still handled it as well as she could.

Yes.

Because it was clearly mutually beneficial.

Yeah.

And so she wanted to come and talk to about her vibrators and

about all the products she hasn't group in the last 10 minutes

of this interview.

They're all about that.

Yeah, that's pretty much what it is.

Just spawn con.

You've got to give something to get something.

So she obviously Alex Cooper and her producer would just like,

well, if we're going to talk about vibrators, let's talk about sex.

We'll talk about your career and stuff.

But how honest are you willing to be?

And I thought it was very interesting and strategic.

Alex Cooper is very good.

The way she seated that at the beginning that Apple said go hard.

Gave her permission.

Gave her permission.

So no one can say it was so inappropriate because she's

made Apple a co-conspirator in that.

And she's now.

But what's wrong with that?

I think that's genius.

I think all of us genius.

I'm just always interested in the behind the scenes of it all.

So I think that.

But what I also think is I don't think it's the same.

I don't think it's the same as if it was a Brad Pitt being asked.

I don't because I think it's still subversive,

which is the whole point of that show,

for women to talk about sex that way,

to be able to talk about pleasure that way,

to be able to talk about how they've enjoyed sex.

It's not the same culturally as men sitting around doing it.

It's just not.

Look, I agree with you to a certain extent.

And also I would say that lots of men do.

Howard Stern, for example, is an American DJ who has made

an absolute killing and has the most enormous following

and media empire on asking celebrities about their sex lives.

And men are say awful shit on that show.

And I hate it.

And I always reckon when we're talking about like gender equality

or sexist questions, the answer is to interrogate the nature

of those questions rather than just to extend them to women as well

so that they end up doing the same thing.

It feels like a betrayal if I had that kind of level of public scrutiny

and interest in my sex life.

And you know what, maybe before this she spoke to them both

and gave them a heads up.

Also you've got to remember the context of all of the sex

that she's talking about is more than 20 years ago.

Like it's different.

If I could talk now about my sex life in my 20s

in a way that you couldn't two years afterwards.

Do you know what I mean?

She's literally talking about the men she slept with in the 90s.

Aren't some things off limits?

Like aren't some things?

No, don't call your daddy.

I don't call her daddy.

When you go, when you've had sex with Brad Pitt,

like these poor famous people that are just trying to have

some private experiences and private relationships.

And then she's being interrogated.

And as you say, 20 years ago, I just feel like it's a real betrayal

and invasion of privacy.

Actually give away anything.

Do you know what I mean?

That's why the skill was in this.

Because me is right.

It's very strategic.

All she really said is that Brad is a great guy

and he was a big love and he was good in bed

and Ben was complicated.

That is basically what she said.

And I'm glad I married Chris because I got my beautiful children.

Like none of that is controversial or anything

that anyone doesn't already know.

The only thing I think that would sting is that she said

Brad was a better actor than Ben.

Yeah, he wouldn't like that.

I think the rest of it, all of her exes would be pretty chuffed.

And ultimately in the F Mary kill game,

she did say she'd kill Ben Affleck.

That might hurt.

But she said 25 times beforehand,

I don't want to kill any of them.

I don't want to kill any of them.

And Alex Cooper goes, OK, we're not really saying kill.

Do you know what I mean?

Like there's context to this.

We don't just take it on this page.

I reckon she made Ben Affleck sound like I would like to kill him.

Sound a bit grumpy.

And like she had this big love with Brad.

And you know, maybe Ben was good with his...

Maybe he was.

Maybe cheated on her.

I know.

But even that, it's like, I don't want to know it.

I just feel like I'm itchy.

I wanted to know every little bit of it.

If you want to make out loud part of your routine five days a week,

we release segments on Tuesdays and Thursdays

just for Mamma Mia subscribers.

To get full access, follow the link in the show notes.

And a big thank you to all our current subscribers.

I read this amazing article the other day on The Atlantic.

We're kind of always looking at me for those articles that say,

the secret to happiness is.

And obviously we've recently got this podcast,

the class even is hosting called, but are you happy?

So I've been thinking about happiness a lot.

And this is a column in The Atlantic about happiness and meaning.

It profess to have the one trait that lots of happy people share.

And so click.

I went in there and the one trait that lots of happy people share

and they had all this started to back it up is enthusiasm.

Now that might surprise people.

Let me give a tiny bit of context.

So people who are either really enthusiastic about something in their life.

They love their job or they love something in their life

that's giving them purpose and meaning.

So they have a certain level of energy that's really attractive to other people.

Is that like positivity is enthusiasm?

I think it doesn't have to be positivity all the time

because I think that you can be enthusiastic about something

that kicks your ass sometimes,

but you have a passion for something.

Arthur Brooks describes it as enthusiasm is defined as being friendly

and sociable and leaning into life.

So I guess that is kind of positivity.

But leaning into activities.

It's like someone who lights up when they talk about fishing

and they love reading and they like it's the opposite of depletion.

You just have this energy.

I think the other reason why they say it's a secret to happiness

is it builds connection because everybody loves someone

who can bring enthusiasm to them.

So like you're telling me about something you're enthusiastic about is contagious.

So we want to be around people who are enthusiastic.

And what I thought when I read this is I thought that's funny

because enthusiasm is so uncool.

It's very counter cultural, isn't it?

Whenever I talk, you don't have to be young people,

any people that they hate people who look like trying too hard.

Well, when I say hate people, take the mickey easily ridicule people

who look like they're trying too hard,

like gosh about their passions too much,

like who are too positive is something that we all kind of profess to hate.

So how do we handle that something that society is decided is capital letter cringe

could be the thing that makes us all happier?

Jesse, you are so enthusiastic.

I wish I was more enthusiastic.

It's the thing I'm really lacking.

I think that there's something quite vulnerable about enthusiasm

because it professes that you care and that's embarrassing.

So it's like, yeah, that's what why is it embarrassing?

Because if other people don't care, then you feel ostracized, I think.

It's quite childlike in a way, isn't it?

Enthusiasm.

Kids have it in space.

Maybe not having your level of enthusiasm about something met.

And that can be quite, yeah, you can just feel on the outer.

But what I can't work out is if enthusiasm can be mustard,

because when I'm feeling depressed or depleted, enthusiasm is the first thing to go

and I look for it and I can't find it.

And the people that I know who struggle with serious mental illness,

the enthusiasm for anything disappears.

And I don't know where you create it.

And then I think about the happiest people I know and they're ridiculously enthusiastic.

And this article said as well that enthusiasm has a correlation to extraversion

and a lack of neuroticism, which are traits that lend themselves more so to happiness.

I guess it's like, did the loss of enthusiasm happen before the mental health crisis?

Or is the mental health crisis led to the lack of enthusiasm?

Like it's very chicken and egg.

As you said at the beginning, can you muster it?

Like if you are not instinctively an extroverted enthusiastic person,

can you make yourself be one or would that just make you more miserable?

Yeah.

I don't know if you can fake it.

I think you can fake it to a point.

It's a stick to beat yourself with, but then I've described in the past

and I've been on medication and different dosages and tried everything.

And I think that happiness is something that I'll always struggle with.

And I've been on medication and I have felt at work when I have felt this indescribable swirling in my stomach

that is like anticipation towards a thing, right?

And most recently when I went on a higher dosage of medication,

I was standing at my bench and I looked at this tub of brownies

and I felt what can only be described as enthusiasm for the most time in a while.

And I went, oh my God, the enthusiasm's back.

And I didn't create that.

Like I didn't look at that and go, there it is.

But it's like you find it and then it creates more.

And then there's this social contagion of hanging out.

And this is what Arthur Brooks writes about as well with other enthusiastic people.

They're really good for your mental health.

You don't want to sit around with a bunch of cynics who barely speak and roll their eyes at everything.

Not good for your mental health.

See, I think Holly and I are very enthusiastic, right?

And Jesse, you're...

Well, it's interesting because you are passionate about things

because I don't think a lack of enthusiasm means laziness,

which you could misinterpret it as.

Like you're one of the hardest working people I know.

But I never get the sense that a lot of things brings you joy.

Maybe you hide it because you're cooler than we are.

She would hate to show joy.

That would not be cool.

And I actually find that really hard is people will say, are you excited?

Are you nervous?

Are you looking forward to this thing?

And I'm like, fuck, I wish.

And that sounds awful.

It sounds so ungrateful.

But I would do anything to feel those emotions.

And when I do, I'm so, so grateful.

But I don't know where you pluck them from.

I think that's different.

I think looking forward to things is a little bit different.

I mean, I certainly heard that a lot in the lead up to your wedding,

not just a view, but of me.

Are you so looking forward to it?

Are you so excited?

And I couldn't say that I was any of those things.

Like I had one of the best days of my life,

but the anticipation of it, I wasn't enthusiastic about it in advance.

So what makes you enthusiastic?

What are the things in life that you're enthusiastic about?

I think it's around motivation.

What makes you feel highly motivated?

Because if you're enthusiastic about something,

it means you really enjoy it and it doesn't feel like a burden.

So you're enthusiastic about clothes?

Yes.

I'm enthusiastic about making content.

I'm enthusiastic about my friendships with my friends.

I'm enthusiastic.

I was going to say I'm enthusiastic about my dogs, but that's different.

My question is, where is it different to obsession?

Because you also know that I can get obsessed.

I have enthusiasm that are like, everyone's got to do this.

We've all got to do this.

And then I'm on to the next thing.

That's true, right?

And so that bad?

Well, no, I think it's, we might have enthusiasm challenges, right?

So you are, your enthusiasm is contagious, which is great.

And I know that Jesse and Claire may disagree,

but I think that it's an important trait in a leader to have enthusiasm.

Yeah.

But then I know that when I was a more direct manager of the editorial team,

Liza used to give me, Liza, who's a head of podcast here

and has worked with me for many years,

she hated how I'd come in in the morning and be like, hi!

And so did Claire and so did Jesse and so did all the cynical little ones.

I was going to say enthusiasm in the morning is too, it's aggressive.

But my feeling is always you can't like slope into the office being like,

and expect you to have a good day or for anyone around you to want to do anything good.

So you're like, fake it if you make it.

Fake it till you make it.

Like I might have, I've probably done 20 million things this morning

and my hair's on fire, but I'm going to smile and fake it till I make it.

Because it is contagious.

But that is very uncool back to the uncoolness.

So I think we might have enthusiasm challenges that sometimes it can be perceived

as fakeness and sometimes it is.

But with you, you're very enthusiastic and it's contagious,

but often once you have transmitted all the enthusiasm to someone,

you're not enthusiastic about the thing anymore.

I'm evangelical about the things that I'm into.

In fact, I'm very, I'm almost prescriptive.

I'm like, I love this thing.

I want you to love it as much as me.

Meet me at my high level of enthusiasm, which is very hard.

But you're right, Holt.

And by the time people get there, I'm like, oh, that's boring.

But the idea of how it's very counter cultural,

it's the language and the tone of the internet is cynical.

Ironic is piss taking, which is quite Australian in a way.

But I just want to, before we wrap up, talk about some enthusiasm's are sanctioned.

And I would say enthusiasm's that men have, for example, around sport.

That's not even considered enthusiasm.

It's certainly not cringe.

That's just seen as, I don't know, Australian or normal or default.

And if you don't have a sporting code or a team that you're passionate about,

that's almost seen as strange.

Whereas for women, if you're enthusiastic about reality TV or clothes or about Taylor Swift

and Taylor Swift, it's a queen of uncool enthusiasm.

If you're a striver, then it's kind of uncool.

That's the cringe.

No one's ever cringe about men's enthusiasm.

It's so true.

And in fact, back to the key to it being important to happiness.

I think when I used to be, I used to be more enthusiastic about sport than I am these days,

but I used to think it was very good for you as a human to care so much about something

that you literally had no impact on.

One of the really good things about being obsessed with the sporting team

and how they do every Saturday is you have no impact on that.

And in some ways, I think it's quite a good life lesson.

And it has no impact on you.

No.

Well, except it does.

I mean, we all know people, I mean, men in particular, but not only,

he'll be in a terrible mood.

No, but not in a real world way.

Not in a real world way.

But I think that there's something quite good for you in learning that,

that you know, it doesn't really matter how much you care about this particular thing.

You can't impact it.

It's quite a good thing to learn.

But you're so right.

That's not questioned.

But what is questioned is being enthusiastic about either things that are viewed by the

culture as silly or being enthusiastic about things that are maybe a little too earnest.

And enthusiasm makes you a part of something,

which is one of the most important parts of mental health.

It's bonding.

It's bonding.

It makes you part of a community.

I really want to know what the out louders are enthusiastic about.

Us.

They're enthusiastic about out loud.

Yes.

They are.

And that's why they're in the out louders.

I love it when you get someone onto something that they are like a specialist topic.

Please tell us what you're enthusiastic about.

Let us know in the out louders.

I am so curious.

Quick recommendation.

I watched tar.

I started watching it on a plane on the way to Fiji and I'm now doubting my recommendation

because you know how everything's kind of better on a plane because you're captive.

I absolutely loved it.

You were raving about it.

I was raving.

I only watched half of it and on the way back we were flying a different airline.

So I didn't even get to finish the movie.

So I was thrilled.

The tar is the movie with Cape Lanchette that she almost won the Oscar for.

Lydia tar is many things.

As a conductor tar began her career with the Cleveland Orchestra.

How's the writing going?

Not so well.

I keep hearing something.

She was playing a lesbian conductor and she gets embroiled in a bit of a me too situation really.

It's incredible.

I loved the film.

I was never going to go to the movies to watch it.

So I've been waiting for it to come to streaming.

It's now on Apple TV.

I have a question.

So you can pay to rent it.

I know I should watch this movie because I've heard it's really good.

Why do you feel you should?

Why is it one of those?

You know there's always those movies that are going to get nominated for Oscars and they've

got amazing cast and great directors.

But you kind of suspect that it will be like a couple of hours of quite hard homework.

So I haven't watched it even though I want to.

Am I wrong?

Is it good?

See I thought it was like a biopic of a female conductor because Kate Blanchett learned to

conduct an orchestra.

She learned German.

She did all of these things because she's so amazing.

So I thought it was going to be boring because I'm not interested in classical music or

orchestras.

No, that's just the environment.

It's actually a me too story.

But about a woman who is accused of impropriety around relationships with young women in her

orchestra.

You should be doing the marketing for it, Mia, because now I want to watch it.

Oh, it's a cracker.

I loved it.

So I then watched the rest of it.

You rented on Apple TV but highly recommend and I'd watch Kate Blanchett do anything.

Well, yeah, she's amazing.

Yeah, I think it's one of her best performances and I'd read so much about how she prepared

for it that I just wanted to see.

Thank you for listening to this episode of Mama Mia Out Loud.

It was produced by Emma Gillespie with assistant production from Susanna Makin.

Audio production by Leah Porges and just a reminder that we have an emergency debrief

about the coronation available for subscribers right now.

There's a link in your show notes.

Bye.

Bye.

Shout out to any Mama Mia subscribers listening.

If you love the show and you want to support us, subscribing to Mama Mia is the very best

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There's a link in the episode description.

Machine-generated transcript that may contain inaccuracies.