Mamamia Out Loud: The Conversation You’re Not Allowed To Have This Week

You're listening to a Mamma Mia podcast.

Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters that this podcast is recorded on.

Hello and welcome to Mamma Mia Out Loud,

what women are actually talking about on Monday the 29th of May.

I'm Holly Wainwright.

I'm Mia Friedman.

And I'm Jesse Stevens.

And on the show today, no spoilers but all your favourite shows are finishing this week.

One of the new rules for how to not ruin someone else's day.

Plus the end of life conversation no one wants to have.

And welcome to Bear Minimum Monday.

Maybe we'll tell you about it.

Maybe we can't be bothered.

But it might be coming to a workplace near you soon.

But first, in case you missed it, Koshy's quit.

Koshy's quit?

Koshy's quit.

David Kosh, aka Koshy, the host of Sunrise for 21 years,

announced on air this morning that he's stepping away after all of that time.

I read that he is the longest serving, I think the word was serving,

breakfast television host in Australian history.

He is.

Here's a little bit of what he had to say.

It really is the world's best job.

I'm going to miss working with the entire Sunrise team.

Sunrise has always been bigger than any one person.

It just seems right to exit stage left on Friday next week.

I will do so with enormous pride and gratitude.

And thank you for having me.

Oh, is this like a real no scandal, not a whiff of mess, the resignation,

just I'm done, Mia?

Yeah, totally.

Koshy is in his late 60s, he's 67.

And what's interesting about him is that he's a very accidental breakfast TV host.

He's not the usual leading man breakfast TV host, I guess.

He and Mel Doyle were a bit of an accidental success

when they were popped on Sunrise.

He was filling in for the host, Chris Reason, who had cancer.

And there was just this beautiful chemistry between him and Mel

and they then took breakfast TV by storm and it's never been the same.

You know, it used to be Channel 9, the Today Show is the dominant force,

but Koshy has really changed the landscape.

In a breakfast TV resignation that was not scandal free last week,

we told everybody about Phillips Gofield and Holly Willoughby in Great Britain

who broke up in spectacular style.

Everybody said that there would be gossip coming out about Phillips Gofield,

who is the breakfast TV host who resigned.

And indeed they were right because in case you missed it,

over the weekend news broke that he had been having a relationship,

an affair with a much younger man who worked on the show

and that Holly Willoughby had asked him directly if that was happening

and Gofield had lied and said no.

And she said that that was very, very hurtful.

So...

That makes sense.

Whoa, whoa, whoa, it's boiler alert.

It's a week of loss for those of us who love TV,

so please keep us in your thoughts and prayers.

From reality shows like Alone Australia,

which I've been watching on the weekend after Holly's recommendation,

even though I do know who won,

also dramas and comedies that we've watched for years

like Marvelous, Mrs. Maisel, Succession, Barry, Ted Lasso,

a lot of our favorite shows are ending forever at the moment.

So I've got a big question to ask.

What is the etiquette with spoilers these days?

Because I obviously want to talk about the shows I've just watched

and once upon a time there was no such thing as spoilers

because you either watched something live or you didn't.

There was no catch up TV unless you had a VHS and taped it

to watch later, which was on you.

Everyone just watched things at the same time.

But now what happens?

Because after I've watched something or even while I'm watching it,

I really want to talk about the shows that I'm watched

because if you wait too long, everyone's moved on to the next shiny thing.

So how do I talk about finales in 2023?

There's all this back and forth at the moment about the etiquette

of spoilers and do you wait a week or do you use spoiler warnings?

And how long after a show has finished airing,

do you still have to give a spoiler warning?

Like, Jesse just started watching Seinfeld.

Do you have to give a...

It wasn't Seinfeld, but it was something like Seinfeld.

I got really into Mad Men, got really into Breaking Bad

and I had to walk around the world saying,

do not tell me how this show finishes.

Holly, you got slammed last week for spoiling a show.

What happened?

I got in so much trouble.

So Alone Australia, which was on SBS,

finished on Wednesday night.

So on Wednesday night, there was a two hour special

that was the last two episodes, right?

I posted about the winner on Thursday night

because I had caught up

and I posted a picture of the winner and I said,

so delighted, love this woman, blah, blah, blah.

And holy schmoly, I got so many messages

that I immediately deleted that post

and put one up saying,

sorry, sorry.

Sorry for telling everyone that Gina won.

Yeah, sorry for telling everyone that Gina won.

And then I said, so how long should I have waited?

And I got so many DMs,

but they were really, really varied

and herein lies the problem here, right?

Because some people said at least 24 hours.

Some people said a month

because everybody's busy.

That's arbitrary.

And other people said,

there's no such thing as spoilers

if you really want to avoid the result.

That's a social media, but I wonder,

there are some shows that the spoiler-ness

isn't so much the thing,

but in reality shows it really, really is, right?

Like it really matters who wins

in order for you to enjoy the experience.

So Jesse, do you think there are different rules

for different kinds of shows?

Yes, the rules are very, very clear.

Reality show, I'm sorry.

You either have to watch it live.

I understand you're busy, we're all busy,

but we make time.

If you cannot watch it.

Prioritize.

Prioritize, that's a really good point.

The other thing is, it is on you.

Put your phone down.

Do not get on Instagram.

Do not get on Twitter.

Do not touch it.

Do not check your group chats.

That is on you because it's about to be everywhere.

So that's a reality show.

I think it's a little bit different for a drama

and tonight is obviously the succession finale.

And unfortunately, I have a dinner with them tonight.

Oh, no.

It's all I've thought about.

It's all I've thought about.

And you know why?

Because my parents organized it and they don't watch succession.

Oh, no.

And it's so selfish.

This is bad.

This is really bad.

Oh, no.

When are you going to watch it?

How are you going to avoid it?

Obviously, we're going to have to wrap the dinner up a bit quickly

and go get home, watch succession.

But what we can't be doing is checking our phone during dinner

because there's going to be...

Or your group chats.

Yes.

Not even the internet.

It's your group chats.

You'll get onto Instagram.

There'll be a main boom ruined.

So that's on us.

And I do think that with a show that's more of a drama...

Like White Lotus, right?

Like White Lotus.

I do think you've got to give people a few days

because it's less appointment viewing.

And you can also...

Oh, I don't agree with that.

I think that when...

Maybe it's just because I was obsessed with it.

But that's very hard.

You can post about something and go...

Can't stop screaming about the White Lotus finale, right?

Yeah.

Yeah.

Without saying what happened.

So I think that media companies are getting better at this.

We knew this even if we write a recap of something.

It's like, just don't spoil it in the headline or the thing

and then people can choose to click.

Remember when people in Western Australia hated you, Jesse?

They have the right.

But your time zone isn't my fault.

When things are live, that's one thing.

But then because we're living in mostly in an on-demand world...

I know I talk about trigger warnings,

but to me, it's around the same thing.

It's expecting the world to protect you and to look after you.

So if you haven't got to watch something, that's kind of on you.

And you've got to expect that if you...

I was just watching Seinfeld or Friends for the first time,

that someone might drop in conversation that Joey and...

I can't even remember how friends ended.

But you know what I mean?

That's going to happen.

I was looking it up.

There's got to be a statute of limitations.

Yes.

And I was looking up if that legally exists.

And there was a search term that came up that said,

how long does it take to forget a spoiler?

And that broke my heart because I thought there will be people

that hear the spoiler for succession.

And then they go, I now have to rely on my brain.

Apparently it takes an average of one month to forget what someone told you.

It's interesting too because, you know,

years and years ago, I worked on TV week magazine for a while.

And what we learned there is that a lot of women quite liked spoilers.

Like in their soap operas and those kind of things,

they quite liked knowing what was going to happen.

And a lot of men did not.

And that was one of the kind of themes of how we'd decide content.

Because often women would want to go and find out.

I hate spoilers.

Succession, for example, it goes to air,

I think it'll be midday our time.

So we will have to actually avoid the internet from midday,

which is tricky with the jobs that we do.

We will have to avoid the internet from midday

until we get to watch it tonight.

Now, if you are spoiling succession at 1 p.m. on a Monday...

Yeah, that's not fair.

I think that's beyond the bounds.

But the biggest spoiler we've had in my living memory,

well, there would be the end of the white lotus seasons one and two,

because that was, you find out at the beginning that there's a body

and then you spend the whole time you're invested in who's it going to be

and you only find out in the last episode.

With succession, when Logan Roy died,

spoiler in episode three, which was not the last episode,

because I think everyone would have been expecting it then,

I get often previews links to lots of TV shows

and when I got the one for succession,

which I then subsequently lost,

there was a message from Jesse Armstrong, the creator,

and he said, I just want to say to all our friends in the media

and what's great about this show is that everybody's experiencing it together

and I'd just love it if you could not mention anything that happens.

He didn't say what happened,

but even reading that kind of message from him,

I knew that someone was going to die in the beginning of the season.

And so it actually kind of spoiled my enjoyment of the first three episodes

because I was like, who's it going to be? Who's it going to be? Who's it going to be?

And then Jesse and I happened to be away on her honeymoon when that happened,

because we couldn't watch it, because we were out of Australia.

I had to get out of all my group chats.

Like all my group chats, we had to agree on terms.

Like everyone's like, okay, no, I'm away and someone else was away.

Yeah, people often jump into group chats now and say ahead of time,

don't they? No spoilers, please.

Yeah, and most media were great,

but the LA Times did an obituary for Logan Roy as if he'd really died.

And in the act of doing the obituary, obviously, that became a spoiler.

Tell us out loud, is there a time limit?

Is it different for different shows?

What do you think? Anything been spot for you lately?

Hey now, you are looking very happy.

I am. Guess what happened last night?

Spoiler alert.

I read a story in the age last week that I can't stop thinking about.

It was a joint investigation by Henrietta Cook and Melissa Cunningham.

And it was called, it kills almost 10% of Australians,

but dementia patients have no say in how they die.

And it referred to a catch 22 I'd never considered.

And this is particularly sort of pertinent for my family at the moment.

And so that's probably why I clicked on it.

But basically, when you're diagnosed with dementia,

you still have the mental capacity to request voluntary assisted dying,

but you do not meet the strict eligibility criteria because your own death is not imminent.

Really, what you say doesn't have any legal standing.

Once the dementia advances, the laws then don't apply to you

because you're in the later stages and you're not able to consent.

So that leaves people in this sort of gray zone

when it comes to something as debilitating and distressing as dementia.

We know that dementia disproportionately affects women.

The investigation told the story of a woman named Luba,

who told her family repeatedly that she wanted access to voluntary assisted dying

when she lost her independence and she could no longer communicate.

That was her wish.

Instead, her condition deteriorated

and she suffered a death that her daughter says she never would have wanted.

The explanation of how she died was so confronting.

It was agonizing.

She was choking. It was long. No one would want that.

Her daughter, Judith, told the age,

it was the most horrific thing I've ever seen.

It was everything she didn't want. It was torturous.

She was crying, but because she was so dehydrated, there were no tears.

The reason this is being discussed is because in Victoria,

voluntary assisted dying legislation is being reviewed.

Doctors, families and patients really want to discuss dementia and this loophole.

On the one hand, some advocates say we're kinder to horses.

We would put a horse down if they were in such an awful condition

and no one would bat an eyelid.

A Melbourne geriatrician says there's a misconception that people with dementia

are sort of peacefully confused and he says that's not what we're saying.

What we're saying is aggression, hallucinations, confusion, paranoia.

It can vary though, my understanding, right?

Some people can be just peacefully confused. Others can be distressed.

Still others can become violent and angry.

And it's almost like it's the coming out of it

that can be the most distressing part

when there's an acknowledgement of the deterioration.

Like knowing that you're losing your mind.

Yeah, and one woman told the age she looked after her mother

and she said, I was working full-time.

I spent every evening and weekend providing care for her cooking, cleaning, house maintenance.

It affected her health. She was burnt out.

And she said my mother would have been horrified

that that's what a decade of my life looked like.

On the other hand, how do you ensure that it's a decision of the patient

and not family members?

Other experts say that this is a cop-out

and a way to avoid the responsibility of caring for these people with real dignity.

Dementia is something that will in one way or another touch every single Australian.

Holly, what do you reckon? What do you make of this story?

I know that it's very complicated to legislate end of life.

I don't understand why this can't be stated ahead of time.

I really find that to be a really troubling thing

because like everybody, I have a story about this

and it's about my grandma, Millie.

So many of my childhood memories, Millie is in them, right?

She was funny, capable, caring, just the best, Gran.

And I remember very much the way that she always made me feel

when I stayed with her when I was a kid, which was a lot.

And at first, Gran was forgetful, repeating herself

in that way that we always tease old people about,

and then it got much more serious.

And she had periods of lucidity, which as you've just mentioned, Jesse,

were absolutely devastating because I remember witnessing a couple of these

and I didn't live with Gran, so I can only imagine that my grandpa

and my mom and my uncle and the people who are around more

saw it much more often, but I witnessed it a couple of times

when she would almost come out of her dementia

and realize what was happening to her mind

and she would be so upset and so uncontrollably devastated about it

and so much expressing that this isn't what she wanted.

And then of course, as things got worse,

she did become a danger to herself and all those things

and she got put in a care home.

And I remember, and lots and lots of out louders will relate to this

and I know that you're going through something similar, Jesse,

but I remember going to visit her there often as a young adult

and driving away with my mom and my mom would just say,

if that happens to me.

That's what so many of us say, right?

If that happens to me, put a pillow over my face.

That cannot happen to me and I remember thinking,

and I know this is a very unsophisticated thought,

when we drive away from that care home,

which was full of people who I'm sure were working very hard

to look after these people,

but it was the most depressing place I've ever visited in my life.

It was just big rooms full of elderly people sitting in chairs,

not talking, TV blaring, just misery and devastation.

And I remember thinking it would be kinder for that place to not exist.

Now, I know that's not a very sophisticated thought

and there's lots of discussion about the various stages of life

and just because somebody doesn't seem to be participating

or they're not their old selves,

it's not that there's no value to them.

But my personal belief system is that I don't value life above all things.

I don't.

I can't reconcile the idea that it was worth another three, four years.

However, as I could say that, right?

My grandpa would not have agreed with me.

He went to visit her every time he could,

long after he could drive there himself,

he'd get a neighbor to take him or my uncle to take him

to go and visit and sit with her while he was able to.

And of course he wouldn't have said that,

I can't understand how we can't,

as we get more sophisticated with our ideas of how end of life should work,

why we can't work out a way that you can state these wishes

and say, if I get to a certain point, this is what I wish for.

I've got a little bit of insight into that, very anecdotal,

because a few years ago when I went to Mona,

the Museum of Old and New Art in Tasmania,

there was like an installation that was a euthanasia machine

and so you could sit there and experience what the process was

if you were going to experience euthanasia.

I mean, obviously not with the needle in you,

but the way it worked and it sort of said that in some countries,

this is how it's done.

It's a series of questions that come up on a screen that you have to answer

and it explains this is what's going to happen next

and you have to answer yes.

And then it's like, are you sure?

And like, yes, are you sure?

Yes, yes, yes.

So what that allows is for the possibility of changing your mind

because the idea of planning something in advance

doesn't allow for the possibility of changing your mind.

Again, I believe in euthanasia, I really do,

but I understand that why with dementia patients,

it's more complicated and it's not just as simple as

when you are in your right mind saying,

hey, when I'm at that stage,

because a lot can happen between me writing that now.

I think it's a good point made by some experts

about what people are afraid of

because if people are afraid because they look at the current aged care system,

which is woefully inadequate,

we have an aging population,

there are issues with funding, there are issues with staffing.

If you look at that and go, that's not what I want,

then there's a system that needs to be fixed.

Whereas if you look at family members,

and this is exactly the conversation happening in my family,

and in fact, I think that then for the children of people with dementia Alzheimer's,

they almost have this responsibility

that they are not empowered to act upon,

which is mum always said or dad always said.

And then you start getting into really murky ethical territory.

Because often they're put in a situation where their parent will be begging them

to end their life and they can't.

And they can't and that just is so unfair.

I was listening to an interview today with a dementia advocate who is in her 60s.

She was speaking very lucidly about what's ahead of her,

but she was saying that even now she relies almost entirely on technology

to tell her what's happening from one minute to the next in her day.

The thing that was very touching about it was she said she can't think ahead

because it is terrifying because she knows what's there.

She knows and as you said, Jesse, it's the system

and it's not the people who work within the system

who are probably the most caring people around.

But the education around dementia is really woeful

and understanding what kind of care people need

and not sort of stereotyping this sort of benign, happy experience.

And she was saying she has to work so hard to live in the moment

because knowing what's coming is terrifying.

And I think that that's one reason, because this is a deeply primal fear

for very many of us, it's almost one reason why we don't want to learn about it.

No, we want to look away from it because it's our ultimate fear.

And then there's stories in the media about a 95-year-old woman

who was tased and, of course, that's just going to make people more and more scared.

So I think that even just hearing from experts,

from people who work in aged care homes,

from people who experience it, from carers,

people actually speaking candidly about the experience and what they actually want.

If you want to make out loud part of your routine five days a week,

you can also release segments on Tuesdays and Thursdays just for mum and me out subscribers.

To get full access, follow the link in the show notes,

and a big thank you to all our current subscribers.

So we should introduce Bear Minimum Mondays around here, but I can't be asked.

So I thought I'll just explain instead in the laziest way

that I can manage what a Bear Minimum Monday is.

Now, apparently it's kind of a bit of a trend that started in the U.S.

and it's in the press today because a marketing manager from Adelaide

called Caitlin Winter got a lot of attention after talking on social media

about her experience incorporating this practice into her team.

So she says, Bear Minimum Monday is a way for you to ease into the week at your own pace.

And maybe it looks like Mondays everybody always works from home

or for the first two hours of Monday maybe there's no meetings or no Zoom calls.

And she said, a lot of people think it means I sit in my PJs all day in front of the TV

and do no work, but in reality it's simply a day when we work from home,

don't schedule any meetings and generally just treat ourselves with a little more space and kindness.

The reason I'm laughing is because I'm just...

Looking at Mia's face.

I'm living inside Mia's head.

Is that? Yeah.

I can't.

And set ourselves up for a little more space and kindness to set up for a productive week ahead.

For us, it means not putting pressure on ourselves to get those big projects done.

Write some lists, dust the desk.

She also said, you know, it means that if you didn't get around to doing your washing on the weekend,

you can put the washing on, you can go to the supermarket, take the dog to the vet,

all those things you didn't get around to doing on the weekend,

you can do on Bear Minimum Mondays.

Apparently, this is going to make us more productive on the other days to ease into the week with a Bear Minimum Monday.

So, Mia, can we all just slide slowly into this week, please?

What are your thoughts?

Sure.

I'm wondering if that then your employer gets to just pay you the Bear Minimum on Mondays.

No, that's not...

No?

Because if you're doing maybe 70% of your job...

You all pay us full money for the Bear Minimum is how I check that work.

Like, guys, I just, in all seriousness, on behalf of employers, I'm just like...

It seems like everyone's confused about how a job works.

Like, you get money to do a thing, not half a thing,

not a little bit of the Bear Minimum of the thing, not quite quitting the thing,

not the parts of the thing that you just like doing on the location you want to do it,

but you get paid to do a thing.

And when you get the job, usually you and your employer agree,

this is the money I will give you and this is the thing that you will do.

And I just don't understand what's happened to that.

Look, I reckon that we've got to be careful about saying the quiet part out loud.

I respect a Bear Minimum Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday.

You do not.

Don't talk about it.

If you're burnt out, if you're tired, if you're whatever,

sometimes you can go to work and you can go,

today I'm not going to do my best, I'm just not.

I'm going to show up, I'm going to do what needs to be done,

and I'm going to leave when the day ends and that's okay.

I probably wouldn't brand it because then people know

That's when I take my dog to the vet and do my grocery shopping

and my wash and bear minimum days only work

when everyone else isn't having a bear minimum day.

If I'm going to have my bear minimum Monday today,

I need you guys to carry the load and that's why I need to hush.

Yeah, and so then maybe someone else will do Fuck It Fridays.

Yes, exactly right.

So you can have your Fuck It Friday, but I had my bear minimum Monday.

Or Wellness Wednesday.

Yes, exactly.

I'm also irritated by this, Mia.

You'll be happy to hear because, A, I agree.

Also Monday, just jump in on Monday, right?

That's the point of Monday.

You get in, you can start moving.

We did a subscriber episode last week,

not everybody might have listened,

where Mia and I have a bit of argy-bargy about working from home.

Bullshit like bear minimum Monday

gives working from home a bad name, right?

This is what people used to think working.

Oh, I'm working from home in inverted commas,

meaning, oh, I'm taking my dog to the vet,

I'm taking my washing.

Oh, maybe I kept the kids home from school today.

You know, that is not what we want.

Those of us who would like to hold on to the flexibility

of working from home because it makes our lives better in many ways

and we think maybe it actually makes us work better in many ways too,

do not want our bosses to think that this is what we are doing

because we're not.

Like, well, I'm not.

I mean, I might put some washing on, maybe,

on a toilet break in between videos

or when I have got to start, but like...

Just make sure you log it.

I'm working.

And the idea that imagine if you're a nurse

and you're like, bear minimum Monday.

Yeah.

It's very privileged, isn't it,

the idea of bear minimum Mondays

or an air traffic controller?

You know what?

I'm just going to find it in today.

Take it easy.

So people stop making it look like

working from home is a bludge

and also it seems like a bit of a way to fake up four-day week.

If you don't want to work on Mondays,

talk to your employers about it.

Jesse, you've got a record.

I do.

I read a book a few months ago now

and it was an early, I got an advanced copy

and I wanted to recommend it,

but it's just come out this week,

so I can finally recommend it.

It's called The Shot.

Oh, I read it too.

Man, you read it too.

Love this book.

It's by Naima Brown

and it's a really unusual book,

but it's the first in what I imagine

will be an emerging genre.

It's fiction, fast-paced,

really good page tenor,

but it is about a reality TV show

and it's a producer who finds a woman

who she wants to completely make over

and basically get an ex-partner

that she had to fall in love with her again,

thinking that she's someone else entirely.

So it's like a bachelor meets

an extreme makeover,

like one of those shows

and it's about the line between exploitation

and empowerment.

She's got some real insights

into reality television

and what goes...

She went and worked on The Bachelorette,

I think, as a producer for a few seasons.

And you can tell.

Sounds amazing.

She's so interesting.

She actually came into Mamma Mia

a few weeks ago, we were talking,

because she's also a podcaster.

She does all these different things.

She's really impressive.

She's already written her second book.

This is her first novel,

but it reads like...

If you like Taylor Jenkins' read

or Leon Moriarty or Sally Hepworth,

it's like roller-king,

I guess you would say women's fiction,

but just so good.

It's been coined

to be one of the biggest fiction books of the year.

So it is very good.

I reckon it'll be made into a movie.

It's called The Shot.

Go and read it.

It's great.

And you've got a new podcast.

Is that the rumor to be true?

It drops today.

Unlike your baby,

who hopefully will not drop today.

Yes, hopefully not dropping today.

It is called Hello Bump.

And you may remember the first season

that was with Monique Bowley and Beck Judd.

And I inhaled that podcast.

It's one of my favorite podcasts ever.

And I keep saying that those two hosts

knew I was pregnant before anyone else,

because I went back and listened.

Like as soon as I found out I was pregnant,

I went back and listened to them.

We were discussing it at work.

And the way that pregnancy and birth

and even first six weeks,

all of that works is that there's new information.

There's new expertise.

It's changing so, so fast.

And even in the,

I think it's probably only five or six years

since that podcast came out.

The advice has really changed.

And so myself and Gemma Preneda sat down.

We have made a 10 part series.

So you're knocked up.

She's got two little kids.

She's got two.

And what's great about Gemma,

she's so honest and candid about everything.

She's had a boy and a girl

and had two very different births.

So that was really interesting.

This is different because it looks at

basically that fourth trimester,

which I think was really important.

Really big focus on mental health.

You talk about your own stuff.

For people who just want to hear.

Oh my God.

Jesse's story.

So even if you're not pregnant,

but you want to hear the details

of Jesse's physical symptoms.

So many personal stories.

And like sitting with a midwife

or an obstetrician or a doula or whatever.

And like any question that you find yourself having

at five months about discharge,

you just get to ask them.

So many discharge questions.

So many times.

Oh my God.

There's just so much to ask.

So it's so interesting if you're pregnant at the moment.

You know someone who's pregnant at the moment.

Or if it's just something you think about.

I'm obsessed with pregnancy birth.

Or if you're just weirdly obsessed with Jesse.

Yeah.

There's a link in the description.

You can get all the details.

How many episodes are there, Jesse?

10 episodes with myself and Gemma Preneta.

Hello, Bump.

Go on, listen to the first episode.

It dropped today.

Thank you, everybody, for listening to Australia's

number one news and pop culture show.

This episode was produced by the wonderful Emma Gillespie

with assistant production from Susanna Makin

and audio production from Leah Porges.

And we will see you tomorrow.

Bye.

Bye.

Bye.

Shout out to any Mamma Mia subscribers listening.

If you love the show and you want to support us,

subscribing to Mamma Mia is the very best way to do it.

There's a link in the episode description.

Thank you.

Machine-generated transcript that may contain inaccuracies.