Mamamia Out Loud: The Botox Backtrack That Took Us By Surprise

You're listening to a Mamma Mia podcast.

Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters that this podcast is recorded

on.

Mamma Mia Out Loud!

Welcome, welcome to Mamma Mia Out Loud.

It's what women are talking about on Friday, the 12th of May.

I'm Holly Wainwright.

I'm Mia Friedman.

And I am Claire Stevens, filling in for Jessie.

Welcome, Claire Stevens, host of But Are You Happy?

On the show today, one of the world's most famous cosmetic surgery enthusiasts has said

she wouldn't want her daughter to do anything to her face.

Plus, the new rules for bills splitting and a cost of living crisis and our best and worst

of the week, which include remembering jock, complicated conversations and growing feet.

But first, Claire.

I'm cold.

Are you cold right now?

In case you missed it, it's cold.

It's real cold in Sydney.

Yeah.

I think that Australians are such worse bags whenever the temperature drops below about

25, we just start complaining a lot.

We do.

We're very upset, especially when it's windy.

I don't know what to do with that.

Everyone here in Mamma Mia has been walking around like wearing actual blankets and those

odys that have been sent in like promotional things.

And I'm harassing Mia for jacket recommendations.

Yeah.

Seasons have changed.

Claire Stevens.

In a trailer for the new season of The Kardashians, Kylie Jenner turns to her sisters and says

all of us just need to have a bigger conversation about the beauty standards that we're setting.

I don't want my daughter to do the things I did.

I wish I'd never said anything to begin with.

What I particularly like about this clip when you watch it is we all know what she's talking

about, but she could actually be talking.

I know.

There's no content.

It's a trailer.

So it's just dramatic music and cuts.

But you're like, oh, she's unequivocally talking about that.

I wish I never touched anything to begin with like someone else's food.

I don't know.

Anyway, please continue.

But it is clear she's referring to cosmetic procedures.

And she has actually made a few references to her daughter and beauty standards recently.

In an interview last month, Kylie said Stormy's perfect the way that she is.

And she said, I see my features in my daughter and my son now, but you know, my daughter

looks like me.

I get to see my beauty in her.

Now, this whole thing is slightly uncomfortable for a few reasons.

Firstly, no one in the Kardashian-Jenna family has ever been forthcoming about what procedures

they've had.

They're notorious for putting noticeable physical changes down to puberty or skincare

or aging.

They've been gaslighting us for years and years and years.

And they also profit from promoting beauty standards.

So Kylie has Kylie Cosmetics and Kylie Skin.

Kim has skims and skin by Kim.

Try and get those what he syllables out.

Courtney's gone a bit goop.

And a huge part of their wealth comes from setting and then selling the beauty standards.

They also sell diet products often.

Remember, they saw those lollipops.

Not so much these days, but you know, I think Khloe still does an occasional diet lollipop.

Yeah.

Second, the very show that Kylie is questioning beauty standards on is heavily filtered.

If you've ever watched this new version of the show, it's bizarre.

It's like there's an Instagram filter over the whole show.

You can do that.

And you actually can.

I used to think that you could only put filters over still images, but you can do filters

over in time, moving images.

So everything that you see is not real.

And in all their ads, they play with their images and sometimes in a really overt way.

But other times, you know, it's not just their faces also, they've all had extensive remodelling

of their bodies.

Like it's almost black mirror kind of stuff in terms of how they've completely reshaped

the shape of their bodies.

But putting all of that aside, do you both think that a person's relationship to cosmetic

procedures changes when you have a daughter?

And can you tell a child they are perfect the way they are while actively transforming

your own appearance, Holly Wainwright?

Look, my position on this has changed a bit.

First, I don't actually believe Kylie Jenner when she says, I wish I'd never done it to

begin with, because you mentioned Kylie Cosmetics.

She sold a large part of Kylie Cosmetics a few years ago for my rumored $880 million

without wanting to sound awful.

Like her face was a massive part of the success, particularly her lip kits.

And without wanting to sound cruel, her preface, her before face, which a million Instagram

accounts will delight in showing you should you want to look, would not have sold that

many lip kits.

I'm not casting any nasturtiums, as we say in our house, over what Kylie used to look

like.

But the beauty standard that made her...

She did not meet the beauty standard of our time.

...that made her that money.

That ironically was set by her sisters.

And to be honest, I have respect for that hustle.

They are sort of self-creations that in a way, I think that we hold up natural beauty as

if it's an achievement when it's not.

It had nothing to do with you.

You were just born that way.

Whereas all of those women have worked fucking hard for what they look like.

So I'm not disrespecting that, but I don't necessarily believe her that she wishes she

hadn't done any of it, because I think it's been an enormous part of her success.

It gets very complicated when we're trying to instill in our daughters, if we are, that

they are beautiful, or that it doesn't matter what they look like.

That's another thing that you try and instill in your daughter.

It's very hard to do that when you're clearly sending another message.

However, we're all doing that all the time, right?

I tell my daughter that she's perfect the way she is, but I tint my eyebrows, and she

wants to tint her eyebrows now, because her eyebrows are yellow and so am mine.

I put makeup on in the morning, and I used to agonize about that when she was little.

But when she was little, she wasn't in the least bit interested in makeup, and I used

to be really smug and be like, my daughter doesn't care about stuff like that.

She cares about things like saving the rain forest.

I knew I was coming for you.

Exactly.

Now I have an adolescent daughter who loves the skincare, the makeup, the stuff like...

So that ship has sailed for all of us in degrees.

I think that what Kylie Jenner and many, many, many, many women who aren't Kylie Jenner,

who have done other things to their faces, it's a complicated conversation that they

have to have with their kids about that.

But to be honest, it's all complicated, don't you think, Mia?

Our mothers looked in the mirror and complained about their weight, and we learned as parents

that we must have those thoughts silently, but not speak them in front of our kids, and

particularly our daughters.

We understood that.

But when it comes to making changes to your face, that's really challenging.

I was conflicted for a really long time about getting Botox, and when I did last year, my

biggest...

I didn't jump in because I'm like, oh, she's telling everybody that she got Botox.

Guys, I got Botox.

Okay, I got Botox.

I got it at the end of last year.

I was...

That sounds you can hear.

Can I make a comment that probably not what you want to hear, slash not what anyone wants

to hear?

I think you're just as beautiful as you were before, and I cannot tell.

Thank you.

That's because it's faded away now.

No, no, no, no.

But I always think this about my friends who have got Botox.

I think I can't tell, and that is reassuring for me.

Oh, I don't.

I think I can tell.

I didn't know.

I didn't with Mia.

Anyway, Mia, this is your story and your face.

You're allowed to do whatever you want with it.

So, the rule that I made for myself was that I wasn't going to post about it at the time

because I was just like, I just can't deal with everybody else's feelings about it, and

I felt really conflicted, and I was like, I do feel like I've let other women down, but

then I'm like, I can't.

You know, I felt ashamed.

I'm not asking for a prize because I've said it.

It's like, I need to be honest.

It was like, I was waving the white flag.

I can't fight the beauty standards anymore.

I can't.

I'm trying.

I'm trying really, really hard.

But I just can't.

Like, I'm still dyeing my hair, and those two little lines between my eyebrows that make

me look angry and tired all the time are really bothering me, and I can't get rid of them

without a little bit of baby Botox.

So anyway, I got it done just when I was going for a skin check.

I knew that I would never be able to actually go and do it.

I needed to sort of sneak up on myself and get it, and my dermatologist's great.

And anyway, so I decided I wouldn't lie if anyone asked me, but I wasn't going to like

you know, I told my girlfriends, I didn't see you guys because we were on nearly said

hi, I just it was summer, it was holidays, whatever, Christmas.

And then when we came back, we were on a meeting and I was on a Zoom call, we were having a

planning meeting and I was, I really didn't want my daughter to know like I was never

going to tell my kids.

I don't think I'd even told Jason.

And in that Zoom meeting, the subject came up and I was like, oh yeah, no, guys, I had

it.

They were like, wait, did you?

And then I heard what?

And Coco was in the room and I hadn't realised.

And so I was like, fuck.

And she's like you.

And she was really angry with me.

Was she angry with you for having Botox or was she angry with you because she thought

you were a hypocrite?

For like always saying you didn't want to.

She doesn't care about hypocrisy, but she didn't want me to have it.

And I understand it's the same reason that I didn't want other women to have it because

it's like, I'm so sick of it.

Because I'm a role model for her and I fucked it.

But you haven't fucked anything.

This is what, so we can talk about this and we talk about all kinds of things theoretically

about women and our appearances and our weight and our lives and our choices and I know we

are people and we can't be responsible for all the women in the world.

Nobody can.

I don't mean us as in the three of us, but I mean, the problem with this, I think it's

a really interesting conversation to talk about Kylie Jenner, who is super famous, has

made a bajillion dollars out of this, is a massive platform, changing her mind about

something. We are all allowed to do that, but it is exhausting for women to have to

constantly carry the expectations of womanhood.

All of us, if we decide that we don't like the little lines between our eyes, we're letting

people down, it's ridiculous.

There are so many women listening to this right now who've done all kinds of things

in their face and body to make themselves feel better about themselves.

Go hard.

We can't fight the standards forever.

The other thing that I was thinking about in this space is it seems to happen a lot that

we care a lot about girls and young women.

And once you're a woman who's reached a certain age, no one cares about you and your

own subjective experience.

I was thinking, if I had a daughter, same as you, Holly, even though I'm like, I haven't

had Botox, I haven't had lip filler, I dye my hair, I wear makeup every day.

There are so many conflicting messages.

If I was trying to say to my daughter, you're perfect as you are.

Now, hold on, Mummy's going to tint her eyebrows.

Like, it's all on a spectrum and nobody's better than anybody else for not having done

certain things.

However, I was thinking that, like, as that woman, as that mother, as you both are, as

mothers to daughters, how about your own subjectivity and how about your own socialization?

Like, you didn't choose to live in a world that made you feel uncomfortable about the

lines between your eyes.

You didn't choose that.

I know, but we always want things to be better for the next generation.

So I want in the same way that now, as mothers, we know not to express any negative

feelings that we might have about our body out loud in front of our daughters or our

sons, I would have liked her not to know because I would like to at least pretend that

I didn't have to be subjected to those beauty standards and that I could hold strong.

The other party is I would say that the way I think about my face and my body, some of

it comes from your mum, certainly, not all of it.

Of course not.

There's a huge and the irony that, Mayor, I'm sure your mum, your mum tells you every

day how perfect you are and how beautiful you are.

She does.

She actually does.

So you've had that and you still have the feeling that mothers might be the primary role

models, but the pressure on mothers to be perfect models of self-confidence for their

daughters is bullshit because, A, we're only a primary role models to a point.

Now my daughter's primary role models are more likely to be her peers and the people

she's seeing on her phone.

And I know that I've done all that groundwork and I'm in there in her somehow.

The other thing we need to remember is one of the other things we tell our girls all

the time is how you look is the least interesting thing about you.

That's what we say, whether we mean it or not.

So it shouldn't be such a massive deal, some kind of betrayal or whatever.

What I'm trying to tell my daughter at the moment, because she does really like makeup

and she does really like skincare, is that it's fun, play with it, but it's not important.

That's what I'm trying to tell her, right, is that there is important stuff going on

in the world.

And by that, I don't necessarily just mean worthy things, but I mean things that will

give you pleasure and enjoyment and exercise and connection with people and all those things.

And then like makeup and skincare is fun, but it doesn't matter.

So maybe we need to lift that weight a bit more for each other too.

If you want to get your baby Botox, if I can get your baby Botox, she's just having some

fun with needles.

Yeah.

Out louders.

Hit me.

I can take it.

Be nice.

I'm so disappointed.

You're going to be all like...

Why are you disappointed?

No, no, they're going to say, I'm not angry Mia.

I'm just disappointed.

No one's going to say that.

Hi, my name's Amy.

This is our question for Out Loud.

Look, I need some advice for my 16-year-old daughter.

Okay, we've got a list of dilemma for Friday.

It's very pertinent because there is nothing that anybody is talking about as much as how

expensive everything is.

And what is bubbling up in a lot of our group chats is reflected in this anonymous listener

dilemma that we got.

It says, I need some advice about bill splitting now.

I'm not usually one to be pedantic about who had what when we go out for dinner, especially

with my friends in a group.

But I went to a birthday dinner recently and the bill was split evenly between 10 of us.

The restaurant was chosen by my friend and it was pretty fancy.

I had to work the next day, so I only had two glasses of wine and I had to leave before

dessert was ordered.

But later, I saw the message in the group chat, because that's how we split bills now,

that said everybody transfer X and it was the same amount for everybody.

Some people ordered multiple cocktails, others had entrees and desserts, but were all expected

to pay the same amount.

My rent has just gone up $100 a week.

I don't make as much money as some of my friends and I really can't afford to cover

the costs for the food and drinks I haven't had, but I'm not sure how to say it.

Is it rude to split hairs with bill splitting, should I say something?

Claire Stevens, etiquette expert.

Firstly, one of the problems with this is that you let it get to the group chat stage.

And the thing about communication that I've learned is the earlier the better.

And I am the worst at this, because communication is hard.

So I think what you're meant to do is when you're at the restaurant, you're meant to

say, hey, I'm just going to get a salad or I'm just getting a meal or I'm not drinking

or whatever it is, and just say that really explicitly at the outset at the same time.

Do you mean when everyone's ordering?

Yes.

When you first get there, you make it clear and some of the advice says, even say, I'll

get a separate bill, for example, something like that.

Or...

Because restaurants love that.

Yeah, they really love that.

And you look at that person's soul die when you say it and you go, I'm going to need my

own bill.

The other thing is that sometimes you go out and I've had this happen and it escalates.

So you couldn't predict when you were first ordering that someone was going to get 15

cocktails.

That came out of the blue.

So it's when the bill comes being really definitive about saying, I think if you're

the person who's like, I want to split this, take control.

Nobody wants to take control of the bill.

That's the problem.

That's true.

Taking control.

And I will actually pay anything so long as you tell me what I have to pay.

So if you do the maths for me and say, this is how it works.

The problem is now, because most people have got their cards on their phones, no one's

got cash anymore.

It's not like, oh, will you put in 20?

You put in 15, right?

So the person will come and some restaurants are like, don't break my balls.

We'll split it two ways or three ways, but I'm not doing 14 different ways, right?

And dividing entrees and three cocktails.

So what do you do?

So in that case, this happened the other night, we were at dinner with maybe 11.

I think you've got to be bossy in these situations.

And I think we all underestimate how much we love a bossy person.

So were you that person?

So I was not.

Am I ever that person?

No.

But one girl was like, I'm paying on my card.

Now let's look at the bill.

Everybody calculate what you had.

You're going to transfer me right now.

I'm in a stand here.

Yep.

Claire, you transferred me.

Jesse.

So you don't make it the restaurants problem.

No.

But she just said, this is what's happening and you don't let it get to the group chat

stage because you need confirmation in the moment that the money has hit your account.

This makes me.

No one's allowed to leave until I can see evidence.

It makes me high V that because everything is so expensive now that one person is taking

an immediate hit of hundreds of dollars plus the tier.

Yeah.

And I'm so angsty as somebody who at various stages in my life might not have had those

hundreds of dollars in my bank account.

You're like, maybe they'll pay me back tonight.

Maybe they won't.

Maybe they'll pay me back next week.

It's made life more tense.

The only benefit is points.

If you have like an American Express or a Qantas card, you get like a little boost of points.

So some of my smart money, they say, I'll do it.

I'll get the points.

And then that would be, but Holly, I'm exactly the same.

My partner loves.

I remember when we were traveling last year, he loves if there's a group of people.

He goes, I'll put everything on my credit card, split it all at the end.

I feel like vomiting.

I am anxious constantly because I'm like, what if your maths goes wrong?

What if it's a huge number and you get to the end and someone goes, I can't pay that?

Like it's just so overwhelming.

What if they die?

I know.

I know.

I want to throw one extra layer of complexity on this that was a dilemma that will happen

to a friend of mine recently out for dinner, birthday dinner, expensive place.

She had a babysitter at home who she was already paying for as well, which would be

$100 at least.

And so that meant she could only be there for a short space of time.

She wasn't really drinking much because she had to drive the babysitter home.

She had to leave early, all those things.

When the text comes in the group chat, she's like, no, I paid $100 to the babysitter and

it's caused issues, me and what do we do?

I don't usually go out in big groups.

My husband will often go, he doesn't like the awkwardness, so he'll just pay.

And I'll be like, well, that's expensive.

No.

That's a lot.

That's a lot.

Every time.

Not a good use of our funds.

Yeah, exactly.

And I know that with friends, often it used to just be like, oh, I'll pay this time you

pay next time, but now it's pretty much split.

And if there's multiple people, see, I don't tend to go out with people who drink a lot.

Like I go out for an early dinner during the week and we'll have one to two drinks each.

We'll have a main course and a dessert and some bread.

So you've basically designed your friendship group largely to avoid this issue, which not

deliberately, but it's a happy byproduct of the fact that it's pretty lucky.

I'm sure I've got friends who drink a lot, but not when they're with me.

But I think Holly, what your babysitter story points to as well is that there's more at

play here.

It's about more than just splitting the bill.

I have had recently, somebody goes, let's grab dinner and I say, great, I'm terrible

at food as a topic.

So you choose.

There's the mistake.

You go and you look at the menu and you go, oh no, this is not where I would have ever

chosen to go because main's like 50 bucks.

I would never have chosen that.

That's an awkward situation.

But then you've got it.

That's on you.

That's on me.

100%.

And also, I don't.

Lady girl needs to get involved in choosing the restaurant.

So back to our listener and her dilemma.

Should she say something?

Yes.

I think she should say something.

I think you are as polite as you can be and as lovely about it as you can be, but you

just say, I'm sorry, I wasn't expecting the bill to be that much.

I really didn't have that much drink that much, whatever.

And then I think going forward, Claire's advice is the correct advice, which is you set it

up from the beginning.

So if you're not drinking, for example, and everybody's drinking, you say from the beginning,

you know, because a good host will clock this and they'll go, Claire's not drinking.

She's not paying for any of the alcohol, but everybody by that point is merry and far down

the line and they've forgotten.

So you've got to say up front what you're willing to put out for.

My kids are always saying to me, why do we need to learn maths?

This is why.

Yeah, it's true.

You should see Jesse trying to split a bill.

Just splitting bills.

It's the most embarrassing.

You've got all the confidence and none of the skills when it comes to maths.

I should say, don't worry, guys, I've got it.

Everyone's paying 23 dollars and you're like, that covers none of it.

Shut up.

So just if you go to dinner with Jesse, don't listen.

Out loudest, tell us how do you handle group dinners?

How do you handle bill splits?

Hit us up.

If you want to make out loud part of your routine five days a week, we release segments

on Tuesdays and Thursdays just for Mamma Mia subscribers.

To get full access, follow the link in the show notes and a big thank you to all our

current subscribers.

It's time for best and worst of the week where we talk about our peaks and our troughs.

I'm going to go first with my trough and it's not my dogs.

Wow.

Do you know what it is?

It's my shoes.

I am wondering if shoes shrink or feet grow, maybe during Peri, I think probably it's about

my feet growing.

I've just pulled out because it's cold weather.

I've pulled out a whole lot of boots that I haven't worn for ages because I'm trying

to not wear sneakers.

I feel like I've worn sneakers for about six years and I'm trying to step it up a little

bit and maybe wear some boots.

So I've got some boots that I haven't worn since pre-COVID and I pulled them out and

I put them on and I got down the stairs and I had to turn around and take them off.

Oh.

And these are boots that I wore, heaps, and they were quite expensive.

They're really nice ankle boots and I've got them in a couple of different colors.

They were always my go-tos and I'm like, oh, maybe I'm wearing socks that are too thick

and then I put on thinner socks, still pinchy.

So your feet have grown.

Is that possible?

Can somebody tell us, does like leather shrink?

Is there any?

No.

I was joking about shoes shrinking.

It used to be a size 36, so I've had stupidly small feet.

Claire, you're the only person I know who's got feet as small as mine.

It's upsetting because sometimes she gets sent really nice shoes.

Yeah.

Claire's the only one who benefits from my shoes that I don't want anymore and he's

about to benefit in a big way because your feet have not yet grown.

When you said your feet had grown, you were the best part of my day.

So I'm now a 37, I reckon.

Wow.

I wonder if it's true.

I don't know if it's out loud as if that's a perry thing, but that's very upsetting.

Because it does, this is what I was telling you guys this morning, Jesse says it does

happen during pregnancy.

It does.

She's gone up a shoe size.

They swell, but do they grow?

Apparently they get longer.

Yep.

Did they stay longer?

I guess you can.

Apparently.

Seriously.

Google it.

You know how you get shorter as you get older, like your shrink as you sort of spine compacts

or whatever?

Yeah.

I wonder if your feet get smaller as well.

Anyway.

My best of the week was actually about a group birthday dinner.

Group chats for friends' birthdays.

When you were exposed to new people, I really, really enjoyed it.

So my girlfriend was having- Anyone, you can talk to in a group chat, you're happy.

So true.

This is just even out-chatted me.

So you know I'm fairly prolific in a group chat.

So there's a group chat that Jesse, Claire, Holly, me and producer Lies are in.

And Holly's the quietest.

I'll often go through a bit of a moment.

Sometimes Lies will, occasionally you or Jesse will.

But in this group chat, oh my God.

So there were maybe 15 women, a lot of them are journos and media people.

I would have a shower and look back and there would be 68 messages.

Oh my God.

That's my favourite kind of group chat.

And that would just be in a few minutes on one day.

That would make me so anxious.

Oh, I love it.

So it was this chat without the birthday girl that was planning what we were going to do

for the birthday girl.

And at one point, just all the different dynamics in a group chat.

And when you're in a group chat with people you don't know very well, like, main person

decided that we were going to do a craft project, like we were all going to do a little square

of something that represented our friendship with this person.

And then everyone started messaging privately going, oh my God, I can't do this.

And then so I just went into the group chat and just went, I think we've suffered enough

with COVID.

I cannot do craft.

Do not give me a job of craft.

So it was just, it was just delightful.

We had so much fun in this group chat and you know, it's funny when you sometimes go

and search your group chats and you just see all old legacy group chats, like you search

the word dinner.

There'll be like a thousand different group chats, which are lots of fun.

But yeah, that was my best of the week.

My best and worst of the week are both related to television, right?

My worst is actually one of the most beautiful things I've ever watched on television.

But me and the kids have been watching Frozen Planet 2, which is David Attenborough.

The Painted Turtle, seen here in a special filming chamber.

They hatched last autumn, but have remained in a state of suspended animation ever since.

Their hearts have stopped beating.

And only their brains have remained active and even then only very faintly.

Like those nature documentaries that the BBC makes must be among the most beautiful things

ever committed to film.

There's just been a second series of this show, Frozen Planet, which is all about wildlife

and things in there.

You know, like it's going to be depressing.

It's cold places.

Well, here's the thing.

This is why it's my worst, because it's been so much fun watching it with the kids because

when they're at the age they're at now, it's actually hard to find co-watching things

because Billy's 10 and Matilda's 13 and their interests are quite different.

But both of them have been obsessed by this, mostly because whenever a cute animal appears,

you immediately know it's going to get eaten by something or become extinct.

And so then you're immediately like, oh, what's going to happen to that cute baby seal?

And then we can all get around that, you know?

Which is fun.

It is so beautiful.

But the reason it's my worst is for the predictable reason that of course

David Attenborough, living treasure that he is, takes us through all these amazing landscapes

and introduces us to all these animals.

And then at the end of every episode, he says, of course, the glaciers are retreating at a

terrifying rate and none of these animals will be alive in three years.

And then he's just like, oh, my God.

So my climate change anxiety is back in a big way, which I'm sure many people would say

it's good that we need these shows to bring that back.

But like both of them, the kids, they're just like, oh, the polar bear is so cute.

Now it's got to walk down a city street looking for a KFC.

I saw a video the other day.

You know how Venice is sinking?

I saw a video of Venice sinking and I went, I can't take that on.

I know it's like lately between that and AI and how it's all going to kill us.

And I'm just like, no, it's a mental load.

I know.

Anyway, but my best was also TV related and bittersweet because I've been watching

Masterchef 2 this week with the kids.

And on Sunday night, I watched the tribute that the project did to jocks on Frillo.

Food's been my entire life.

I remember going home and saying to mum and dad, I'm going to be a chef.

I said, like, forget about school.

I want to leave tomorrow.

They're like, you're 12. Forget it.

You know, leave the school tomorrow.

The most important thing for me is giving back to people in our kitchen.

Like it was beautiful.

And I cried a lot.

I know everybody did.

Andy Allen, his co-host on Masterchef and obviously one of his best mates

spoke about him on Sunday in the which would have been so hard to do.

Like so hard to do.

It was so fresh.

Just a few days after.

What did he say?

Well, he said how he'd had lunch with Jock on Saturday.

Jock died on Sunday night.

I had lunch with Jock on on the Saturday before he passed.

It was a usual lunch.

We went to lunch.

We went to Tipo.

He bought all of the whole menu.

We hadn't seen each other for a while.

So it was it was a good old catch up about what we've been doing or excited about.

He was so excited about Monday.

And then he was so excited to get back over to to Rome.

He couldn't wait.

He couldn't wait just to just to start that with his family.

It was just heartbreaking.

It was.

But the reason it's my best, because I know that seems a bit counterintuitive,

is that then I did watch Masterchef with Matilda

and we've watched it a couple of times this week since I always used to love that show.

I've gone in and out of phases of loving it.

And one of the things I love about it is I love how diverse it is.

I love food, so I love watching all that.

But it's so positive.

And I love those three hosts like I love them.

So watching Jock, I know we ran a story on Mamma Mia.

I think Charlie Begg wrote it saying that she couldn't watch it.

She found it too sad.

I actually felt the opposite, like watching this beautiful man do what he does,

connecting with these people, being so generous.

It's actually like it's kind of beautiful to remember him rather than to sort of

just shuffle it off under the carpet as if it never happened and he never happened.

So what's it like watching it?

Can you sort of forget?

At times like Matilda is very invested in Jock as well,

because she knows how much I used to like him and also she is very interested,

you know, in what happened to him.

But you can also just be swept up by the show as you always can.

And like, oh, why is that lady making ice cream out of mustard?

That's going to be disgusting.

And you know, like, so it's still good TV.

I'm kind of loving seeing him in action, even though it's sad.

I have to say on the project tribute, the thing that broke me was they had Jimmy

Barns sing this old Scottish song and bagpipes and the whole thing.

And oh, my God, it was really emotional, but beautifully done.

So my strange best of the week has been watching beautiful jock in action on MasterChef.

I've thought this recently that because we are so into content,

whether it's videos, photos, we document our lives in so many different ways.

It's kind of like the first generation where you really have like audio and video

of people who have died in a really tangible way.

That tribute was so well-sourced.

It's like you have so much.

You have so much that you didn't have 10, 20 years ago.

And I think it makes grieving different.

But I wonder if it makes it better or worse, easier or harder.

I was catching some of it the other night, the one with Jamie Oliver.

And you're right, you get so into they're making.

I don't even know what, but I was so into it.

It's quite beautiful to see jock in his element.

Yeah, exactly.

It makes you believe that maybe like, I don't know, he's at peace

and he was doing what he loved.

Like I was so good at it, so good at connecting with all the people

and so loved by his co-hosts.

And yeah, it's a beautiful thing.

What's your best and worst the week class, Stevens?

So my worst, this could be weather related, which is incredibly boring.

But my motivation and energy is gone.

It's gone overnight.

All I want to do is lay in bed and watch television.

And I'm not exercising.

I'm not doing life admin.

There's some kind of tax thing I need to do.

And there are unanswered emails in my inbox.

I just feel like I'm not getting through what I need to get through.

And then I feel profound guilt because obviously we live in a hustle culture

where it's all about productivity and I'm very aware that on the weekend,

for example, I did absolutely nothing productive.

And I often think about the fact that I'm so incredibly privileged

to be able to fall in a hink.

So on a Sunday, I can get up and go, I don't feel like living much today.

And most people don't have that because they have kids who are dependent on them.

They have parents that they're caring for.

I have no one I'm caring for, so it means I can just fall in a hink.

Stop it. Like stop it.

Do you think it's depression related?

I don't know. Or if it's just I have heard this from a lot of people at the moment.

Maybe it is just the change of season that your routine changes a little bit

because the sun's coming up a bit later, like and it's going down earlier.

I think you've got to adjust to it.

But what's wrong with lying in bed?

Like what I've come to realise, because I know what you mean,

what I've come to realise is that because I have friends like Holly Wainwright

who, less so now that you've moved further away and things are more difficult to do

in terms of activities, but I have friends who are very like full of activities.

Or I can't hand on heart.

I have never just stayed in the house all day. Oh, my God.

I would quite like to.

See, I thought it was really horrible.

No. Why would it make you feel horrible?

The things I'm doing are fun.

She's not better than you.

Doing this, they're doing that, they're like like the idea of spending

a whole day without leaving the house.

Like, I don't know that I've ever done it.

Well, I have, obviously, when I was young.

But like, I would love to do that.

That would be fucking brilliant.

But my point is that what Claire's saying is that with this culture

and also with social media and everything, you're just like,

oh, I should do this and I should do that.

And I should be out making the most of the day and I should go to the markets

and I should have a coffee with friends and I should do brunch

and I should do all of these things.

And I've realised that our weeks are very social, a lot more at work,

a lot more social than most people.

And I did have a very big week last week.

One of your triggers, I know because I've listened to you on,

but are you happy?

And Jesse's the same.

You have this massive, like, I'm not productive enough guilt.

Whereas to the outside eye, I think me, if you even want to agree with me,

you two are two of the most productive people we've ever met.

Like, last week, how many podcasts would you have recorded?

How many meetings were you in?

How many stories did you write?

You are doing a lot, but in your mind, you're like, I'm not doing a lot.

That's a psychological issue.

Because I think as well, when you're doing a bit of freelance stuff,

you approach every day, though it should be a workday.

There's like no excuse.

But I have that.

It's also the same when you run your own business.

Because there's no off switch.

So I've realised because my weeks are really social

and I get a lot of social, like, we get to work with friends.

It's like, we're really lucky here at my mirror.

It's fun.

And then I go home and my weekends, I need to not have any arrangements.

I need to not see people.

I need to potter.

Like, I need to potter for two days.

And because also my kids are older now,

so I don't have the burden of having to organise their lives

on weekends and do activities with them.

They run their own race.

So now I can almost find what my natural setting point is

and take a load off.

But I think what your point is, Claire, is that you're still doing the things,

but it's harder.

Yes. It feels harder to do them.

Coming up against something that feels very tough.

This will make you feel poorly, you two,

but we have a new tradition in our house.

Oh, no, what is it?

You're growing, you've got your veggie garden,

you've got your egg things, you've got your bloody...

Because I'm worried about the family drifting apart

as the kids getting older, we have a Saturday morning outing.

Oh, stop it!

Where'd he go?

If it's raining, like it was the other week,

we went to the movies, like, but we all go

and then we have dumplings afterwards.

And then last weekend, it wasn't raining, so we went for a bushwalk.

OK, I want to come to your outing.

Let them drift.

All they want is to bloody drift.

But then I did the rest of the weekend, I did very little,

and it brought me a lot of happiness anyway.

I need outings, but my my dog is really slowing down.

He doesn't want to be outside.

What's your best, sweetie?

My best.

The conversations I'm having, we did.

I know I've mentioned it a little bit,

but because of the podcast I'm doing, but are you happy?

We have been doing all sorts of content around it.

And the other day in the office, we were making a video

and I was sort of going up to people and asking them.

She did it to me, and then I've spent 24 hours

torturing myself about my responses.

I really thought that was just me.

We made it, obviously.

And Emma's saying the same thing, but I was like,

I should have said this and why didn't I say that?

And that will make me sound like that.

And I was like, oh, anyway.

That was Emma, too.

I produced Emma.

My text, Claren, said you can't use anything that I said.

Why did we, anyway, please continue.

But I will say we did people in the office,

we did people on the street, people who work in the building

that we've never spoken to before and went up to them.

And with no prep, they didn't have any time to think about it.

Just ask them these questions.

And I realized after a few times of doing it

that you are putting someone on the spot

and there's a little bit of terror in their eyes,

but you get such honest answers

because they don't have time to worry about it or filter it.

And we spoke to an 80 year old woman

who was at the bus stop downstairs

and she gave a really honest answer

about how she's struggling with happiness right now

because her mind is full of hope,

but her body is letting her down.

And I thought, what a profound thing to say on a Tuesday.

And then we talked to a woman in the lobby who just,

she was just having a nice day.

She was just very giggly and I was like, oh, I like this person.

So I asked her a few questions.

I forget what the question was that triggered this,

but she said, oh, I lost my mum recently

and I've really been struggling with that.

And I could see her eyes get a bit glassy,

but we ended up having like a 10 minute chat

about her mum and grief.

And I just thought, I am putting people on the spot.

I am giving everybody vulnerability hangovers

that have been traumatizing for so many people.

I just pretty much started crying.

She's like, but are you happy?

And I'm just like, no.

This was I was like, sweetie.

But I do think even if it was uncomfortable for everyone else,

it was really insightful.

That is amazing.

Those kinds of conversations.

They're the conversations everyone wants.

Where are we going to be able to see that or watch it all?

That will be coming out soon.

It's just to promote the podcast

so it'll be in the next probably week.

I just encourage everybody to just, I don't know,

if you're at coffee, just ask a direct question

and see what happens.

Because I think it can really build connections between people.

There are people in the office

that I hadn't kind of connected with before

and they answered a question and I was like,

we are a lot more similar than I ever thought.

Wow.

Mia, you've got a quick record before we go.

I do.

It's about washing.

So this is not sponsored.

And I can't even tell your brand.

So I'm just going to tell you to search for it.

Like on Amazon, right?

I really like washing and no one in my house

does any washing but me and it drives me crazy

because my teenagers make a lot of washing and so do I.

So I always divide things into three piles,

whites, darks and colours.

And I've been trying to teach my kids how to do this.

So I went and found we've all got our washing baskets

in our rooms, but mostly they then just

dump them on the floor of the laundry.

So what I did is I went on to Amazon

and I searched lights, darks, colours, washing hamper

or something like that.

And it came up with this.

There's three compartments.

It's labelled on the front.

It's colour coded.

Oh, my God, I need one of these.

So many wheels.

So you can all wheel it in and out of the laundry.

It's really good to get your children

to just even think about their laundry in that way.

I need this because Brent does a lot of washing in our house.

He loves to put a wash on.

He doesn't like to fold, but he likes to put them on.

But he just washes everything together.

That's me.

Towels, whites, jeans, t-shirts.

And it makes me crazy at the least.

Like I like my towels in my bedding to be separate from my.

So I need this because then if we did that, then he would just

because you cannot wash towels with clothes,

but I don't think there's a washing basket for that.

That's just something that you need to.

I need to write it on the front of the washing machine.

I'm not kidding. You should do that.

I've got notes stuck all up in my laundry,

but this has been just so amazing.

I'll take a picture of it.

I'll put it on our Instagram in the Outladders group

so you can see just go on to Amazon.

It's like 50 bucks or something.

Maybe maybe it's a bit more money.

Well spent. Good record, Mia.

That's all we've got time for this week.

Thank you for listening to Mamma Mia Out Loud.

Thank you to Claire Stevens filling in for Jesse Stevens,

who is fine. Everybody in case you're worried.

She's just had a very busy week.

Busy girl.

Busy girl.

And this episode is produced as always by the brilliant Emma Gillespie

with audio production by Leah Porges,

an assistant production from Susanna Makin.

Goodbye. We love you.

We'll see you next week.

Bye.

Shout out to any Mamma Mia subscribers listening.

If you love the show and want to support us as well,

subscribing to Mamma Mia is the very best way to do so.

There is a link in the episode description.

Machine-generated transcript that may contain inaccuracies.