Mamamia Out Loud: The Absolute Worst Kind Of Boyfriend

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Mamma Mia Out Loud!

Hello and welcome to Mamma Mia Out Loud.

It's what women are actually talking about.

On Friday, the 16th of June, I am Holly Wainwright.

I'm Jessie Stevens and it's my last day.

It is!

I'm running at about 12% at this point.

Baby has won.

I have lost.

It was fabulous.

It was incredible.

I just figured it's the last day I'll probably put on mascara in a while, so I might as

well flick him in.

Look at amazing.

I am Elfie Scott and it is not my last day at all.

I wish.

Jessie, we are all very sad in a way that it's your last day for a while and let's just

remind and reassure everybody it's your last day for a while, but we're also just super

excited.

All of the Out Loud is just super excited.

I'm excited.

For me, as excited in Europe, we're like excited.

And I should let the Out Louders know what my plans are because if anyone deserves to

know, as the Out Loud is, I have told HR that I'll take four months.

Will I take four months?

I don't know.

That is the loose plan.

If I'm not back by then, I'm hanging out with my baby, but that's the plan that I'll come

back to the show after about four months.

On the show today, it's been a grim week for women in parliament again.

So how does the way that sexual assault allegations are discussed in the highest workplace in

the land affect the rest of us?

Plus, one week out from the return of Sex and the City, we can't agree about who was

the worst man on that show.

And it's Jessie's last best and worst for a while and we're talking about the ugly

end of pregnancy, movies that make you weep, and possibly the worst best podcast in the

world.

But first, in case you missed it, Jessie.

No.

No, I'm not bringing it because I don't like it.

I don't like it as a segment.

I'm on the record of saying that I don't like it.

I have an irrational issue with this segment that I find difficult to articulate because

I think at this point it is only about stubbornness and the fact I've always been against it and

Mia fights for it.

And Mia and I would not know who we are if it weren't for the fact she fights for this.

And I say, this is a silly segment, doesn't have enough depth.

Sometimes it's just a thing and I feel like I have nothing to say.

So today, I am canceling my final show.

I'm saying, no, we're not doing it in case you missed it.

And Mia is in Europe and can't say anything, unfortunately.

And because this is Jessie's last show out loud as she gets her own way.

So yes.

And I'm sure after I, I'm off, it will persist.

I will listen on maternity leave and it will grind my gears and I'll go, that's a stupid

segment.

Mia will probably make us do three in case she missed it when you're on leave.

That'll be the whole show.

That'll be the whole show.

Downloads will plummet and I'll say, I told you so.

No, in case you missed it today.

You can hear the resignation in the voices of the female journalists who are

reporting on Australia's parliament this week.

You can also hear it in the female politicians who are being asked for

their commentary over and again.

I've heard so many female politicians on the radio this morning.

It's a sort of tired, disheartened sadness that again, what's being discussed

is a culture of cover up and denial around alleged workplace sexual assault

and harassment.

Now, at out loud, we have been broadly avoiding covering the entirely toxic.

And I do believe that that is the right word in this instance, ongoing

coverage of the Bruce Lerman, Brittany Higgins case, as much as is responsible.

Because at this point, adding to that bonfire is not helpful for any of the

people, and particularly from our perspective, the women involved in it.

But that's pretty much all parliament has been talking about.

Who knew what and who leaked what and who covered up what and what the toll has

been on who to say that what started as a sexual assault case has become a

political football is rather an understatement about even what footballs

are subjected to.

But it was into this atmosphere this week that a new allegation from former

Green Senator Lydia Thorpe was dropped.

She stated and then withdrew and then stated again that she had been the

victim of sexual assault and harassment within the walls of parliament

house, which she says are unsafe for women.

Here's a little bit of what she said in her second prepared statement to the

Senate.

So today I will speak about my experience in parliament.

I experienced sexual comments and was inappropriately propositioned by powerful men.

One man followed me and cornered me in a stairwell.

And most of this was witnessed by staff and fellow members of parliament.

No one witnessed what happened in the stairwell as there are no cameras

in stairwells.

I know there are others that have experienced similar similar things and

have not come forward in the interests of their careers and fear they would be

presented to the world by the media in the same way that I have been today.

To me it was sexual assault and the government at the time recognised it as such.

Now what happened after Thorpe made this allegation is perhaps predictable.

Thorpe is what we would call a divisive in inverted commas figure in parliament.

She's a First Nations politician who quit the Greens over their decision to

support the voice to parliament, which she does not.

So there are plenty of people who don't particularly like her opinions.

Happy to discount her account this week.

But then Liberal MP Amanda Stoker echoed Thorpe's allegation.

And now as we're recording this today, a third allegation has been leveled

at Liberal Senator David Van.

And the Liberal leader Peter Dutton has expelled him from the party and urged him

to resign from politics altogether.

Ultimately I made a decision that he would not sit in our party room and I

thought that was the appropriate course of action to take.

And I hope it sends a strong message to anybody else who is conducting

themselves in a way that is not acceptable to our party or to our nation.

We have to state that Van vehemently denies all allegations and he says

that his reputation has been wantonly savaged this week.

And it's important to note that we cannot assume otherwise.

So what I want to talk about today is that as this muck swirls around parliament

house, how are Australian women feeling?

We're watching alleged victims of sexual assault being doubted, vilified

and demonised again and again.

And it feels like the women who are reporting these stories,

both the ones reporting them and the ones reporting on them, are feeling defeated.

And like nothing is changing and in fact it might even be getting worse.

Jesse, is anything that's happening giving women any reason to be encouraged

about how we treat allegations of sexual assault in 2023?

The fact that Lydia Thorpe is an Indigenous woman and therefore she is

statistically more likely to be a victim of assault and also and this is

unfortunately what we saw play out is that people immediately dismissed her.

The commentary, the difference when she said what had happened to her.

And look, you might not agree with Lydia Thorpe's politics.

I certainly don't agree with everything that's ever come out of her mouth.

But when she made that claim, people were so quick to dismiss her.

And then when a white woman made the same claim, we started to look differently.

And that was a really disgusting, uncomfortable moment.

I kept thinking, don't we have to stick to due process?

I don't know if there is one anymore.

And there was a really good point made by Samantha Maiden, which is like,

do we expect these women to seriously go to the police?

Like Amanda Stoker, for example, who had her bottom pinched.

She was the inadvertent commas, perfect victim.

She did everything that she was meant to do.

I think it was really appropriate for her to come forward to support

the allegations of Lydia Thorpe.

At the same time, I believe that sexual assault, sexual violence

is one of the most serious crimes you can perpetrate against another person.

And therefore, I want those crimes to be verified,

like as a person who believes in justice.

But they're so hard to verify, Jesse.

I know, I know.

We talked about this at length last week, and this isn't satisfying in any way,

but they are among the most difficult of all allegations to prove.

Because very, very, very often, there's only two people involved.

And there's no evidence.

And it gets messier and messier if it's the only crime that doesn't require proof.

If you get up in Parliament and you say that someone is guilty of corruption or theft,

there has to be some evidence provided.

I think the point that Thorpe made, regardless of whether or not this is true,

obviously, we can't make comments on that.

That's for court or an investigation to decide.

But the point she made about increased security seems like a really obvious one.

There is not enough security.

There are not enough cameras.

Why are people here at night?

This whole culture is not right.

So that's a great starting point to go, yeah, put cameras in stairwells

and make sure that women aren't walking around feeling as though no one's looking out for them.

Even as like a basic national security thing.

Yeah.

I was very confused when she said that there weren't cameras in stairwells.

Like you would think that any other reason there would be a lot of surveillance in Parliament House.

What Lydia Thorpe was talking about in terms of like how unsafe she felt in the building,

I thought was really striking in that statement in the Senate when she started crying

and she was talking about like how she felt so, yeah, I guess, as vulnerable in Parliament House.

And I don't know if you guys have actually like walked around there before,

but it is like a deeply confusing building where I feel like the architecture kind of

lends itself to things happening in those hallways that don't go reported on.

Because, yeah, it's just so stark and weird in there.

It's a very strange atmosphere.

It's just such a grim reminder of how women are treated

and how their allegations are treated in public conversation.

And when allegations do come forward,

I'm wondering if there's a single additional woman we can point a finger at

because how we have ended up exclusively speaking about women from every side of politics.

I'm just looking at it going, talk about a witch hunt.

Totally. And this is the weird part as well.

When you're talking about all those female politicians who were being interviewed before Holly,

I'm like, I've seen so many female politicians interviewed

and I don't know how many male politicians have been interviewed as well.

It's been like party leaders and that's it.

Yeah, it's so true.

And it's interesting because I've seen, you know, female politicians from all sides.

It probably is naive to think that allegations that surface

in the most political place in the country are not going to be politicized.

But it's also worth noting that the female politicians voices

I've heard on this issue over the last 48 hours are from all sides.

They're from nationals, they're from Libs, they're from Labour, they're from Greens, you know,

and Larissa Waters, the leader of the Greens in the Senate,

was just saying that after the investigation and report by Kate Jenkins

about how to make parliament houses safer place, everyone had a bit of hope.

And now that hope's in the toilet.

I also just want to make the point, I feel like there's this growing narrative

that in a post-MeToo world or whatever,

women are throwing sexual assault charges at men they don't like for all kinds of personal reasons.

In this case, it might be political.

In other situations, it might be a personal vendetta,

perhaps, or to score some sort of victimhood points or something.

I think it's so essential to remember that all the data in the world

says that sexual assault is the most under-reported of all crimes.

It's really hard to get stats on this, of course.

But as far as we know, the best Australian stats say that

more than half that all women have assaulted don't tell anyone.

Never mind make a legal complaint, they don't tell anyone for support or advice.

So it's always been a very easy crime to get away with.

And I worry that there's this narrative building that women are weaponising it.

And I think we just need to remember how few women actually report this crime

and how few cases ever go to court.

I agree with you.

I also think that the worry with not proceeding with legal action,

which again, I completely understand why someone wouldn't.

And I think that the police and legal system have a lot to answer for in that way.

I just, when I think about someone being accused and staying accused

and the grey murkiness that sits around them, we need a better system.

We need a better way of investigating it.

Because if that man is innocent, if any of these men who are accused are innocent,

then they deserve to have the ability to have their name cleared.

And if they are guilty, then they also deserve to live with those repercussions.

So I'm not entirely comfortable at all with someone being able to get up in Parliament House

and accuse someone and then it just goes nowhere.

Like, I don't think that that's good for anyone.

I don't think it's good for women or men or perpetrators or alleged victims.

The other thing I'll say is that what I don't need is Pauline Hansen standing up,

talking about crocodile tears, taking any alleged sexual assault survivor back decades.

That was one of the most upsetting.

I think any woman watching that or anyone who is a victim of sexual assault,

hearing her talk about crocodile tears and basically calling people liars,

I just thought, who asked you and how is this what our Parliament has deteriorated into?

The time is nearly upon us.

The new season of And Just Like That is out next week.

And don't worry, we're going to be talking about it, not me, but I will be in my group chats.

But Holly, I know you'll have a lot to say.

Oh, I will.

Before we jump back into the show and we see Shae Diaz's next comedy concert,

I might skip through that bit, but I thought I'd throw out a very important question.

You might have seen through some teasers that Aiden is back and obviously,

Big is not around any longer, spoiler, but I want us to take a step back,

take a helicopter view at all the men who appeared in the original Sex and the City seasons

and decide once and for all who was the worst one.

Earlier this month, Vanity Fair ran an article with their own theories.

My belief is that your answer says something about your own trauma.

I use that term facetiously.

And also, I feel like every person you ask has a completely different answer.

It's based on your history.

It is based on what you saw in that person that others potentially didn't.

So here are the rules.

Each of us need to pick our worst Sex and the City boyfriend

and lay out the reasons why they should be crowned number one worst man, Elfie.

You go first, please.

OK, so I'm going to choose something predictable, which is annoying of me.

But I will say that I did deeply consider Justin Thoreau's character.

I don't know if you remember him.

He was the writer.

Oedipus complex.

Weird.

Got very angry at Carrie because he used to squirt early

and then he wouldn't talk about it.

So he is a strong contender here.

But I will have to say that Alexander Petrovsky is abhorrent

and obviously the worst character.

Holy, there's a reason that they put him at the end.

Like, it's so that big would look redeemable and they could get back together.

He's easily the worst.

I will say he is awful because he is clearly misogynist to his very core.

He treats Carrie, who I don't like anyway, but like point aside,

he treats Carrie like a little child doll to dress up and have sex with

and take around the world with him.

But he has no reading on her internal life or her career or her aspirations.

She is just an accessory to him.

He feeds her little chocolates out of his coat like a 19 year old man.

But he took her out for dinner at three in the morning

and they ate like oranges or something.

I found that very exciting.

Yes, but she is what?

Oh, my God.

OK, but she didn't even want to eat what he was eating.

He just made her eat it as though she was like a little baby to delight.

Wasn't he the man to that was violent?

Like, he actually was violent towards her.

And then at the very end, they do a fight and he breaks her diamond necklace.

Yes, yes.

It is controversial as to whether or not he intended to hit her,

but he definitely made contact and slapped her.

Yeah. Also, Miranda hates him.

That was great.

She's the moral compass of the show.

She knows.

And I think that her hatred is the biggest indication that Alexander,

he does that thing where he makes her pronounce his name correctly.

As you know, Alexander. Alexander.

Oh, Alexander.

Alexander.

Say, Alec.

Alec. Alexander.

Alexander, which is why I'm saying it like that.

It's annoying of me.

You're worried he's going to get you in trouble.

Yeah, yeah, I'm sorry.

I think you make a very compelling case.

I don't like him either.

Holly. Oh, I do like him.

I do like him.

I mean, I don't like him like him.

Like, I don't think she should have ended up with him.

He was so insecure and annoying and a lot of Elvis points are correct.

But I did find him quite exciting as a boyfriend.

My least favorite man in Sex and the City is not one of Carrie's.

It's one of Samantha's.

It's Richard Wright.

Do you remember him?

In a wildly optimistic gesture, I ordered you a dirty martini.

Dirty martini, dirty bastard.

Season four made a reappearance in season six.

He was the very fancy hotel magnate who was like a playboy

and he was like the male Samantha, right?

Now, the reason that I chose him is in my heart and you're so right, Jesse,

that all of these choices say something about our lives.

There is a special place in hell for men who love the chase, right?

And he's the kind of guy who he saw Samantha, who doesn't need him,

doesn't really want him, is living an amazing, fulfilled life,

just wanted to have sex with him because she found him very exciting.

But he's like, no, I need to own that.

So he chased and pursued and he broke her down to the point

at which she was like, oh, maybe we're actually in love.

And then he just shits all over her.

It's just sex. I love you.

There, now your heart's broken too.

And those kind of men, and I know many of them and my friends

have dated many of them the worst because it's like they can't stand it

when a woman doesn't need them or want them.

So they have to make them do that.

I know guys who will be, you'll be like, I don't want to date you

because I know you're a player and that's fine.

You be over there being a player, not my problem.

And they'll be very much, I'm changing.

You'll be the one to change me and all these things.

And you go against your instincts, which is what Samantha did.

She went against her instincts, her sort of internal compass

about what kind of man he was and went there.

And then he exactly reverted to form and shadow over her.

And it's an extra humiliation in that.

And also, my last thing about Richard Wright, he reappears in episode six.

This episode really spoke to me.

She, by then, is with Smith, Jared, the hot model.

I like him.

Yeah. And he is also trying to convince her,

although in a very different way, that she is worthy of love

and they can have a relationship and all the rest of it.

She kind of thinks no.

And Richard Wright comes back on the scene, but he's a bit sadder,

a bit older, a bit more desperate.

And he convinces her to go, well, she decides to go up

and have sex with him in a hotel room.

And then Smith's waiting for them at the end and he takes her home.

And he's like, you don't have to be that person.

And I've very moved me a lot.

The Richards make us look stupid and we don't like that

because everyone's going, well, you knew from the beginning,

they told you everything you needed to know about them

within the first five minutes.

But then it is the gaslighting, very overused term.

But it is of just like the lies that they tell you

and the way that they get you on side

and the things they say to you in private.

But they always do that thing where they're like,

but I set it out from the start.

We had our expectations on the table.

You can't expect any more of me.

I told you I was a dickhead.

Yes, exactly.

It compromises all trust in future relationships.

But you're both wrong.

My answer is burger.

I told you not to go fast.

Wasn't that fast?

It just feels fast because you're on the bike.

Bullshit.

Absolutely.

Burger.

Burger is just pathetic.

He's not hateful, is he?

OK, problem with burger.

And I think I have dated a burger once

and I'm quite traumatised by that.

It is because he goes to bed at night,

not thinking he's a bad man.

I think Richard goes to bed knowing that he's not great.

Right?

My issue is with men who go to bed

thinking they're lovely, great men

and they're victimised by the world

and all the women around them and they lack self-awareness.

I think the lacking of self-awareness

is one of the most dangerous traits

and that's what he has.

This is brutal and I love it.

It's like I find nothing more of putting in a relationship

than competitiveness.

I really find it icky.

Sad the most competitive person I've known.

Yes, and I'll be competitive in all arenas of my life.

But if I came home with some sort of success

and I felt as though I had to make myself smaller

in my home, what that would do to me?

I think, well, I've felt it before

and I've felt it with someone who there was only space

in that relationship for his successes

and the second that there was any sort of failure on his end

or I came home with exciting news.

Like it was so icky.

It's so sexist as well

because you can only love a woman as long as they're like just beneath you.

Below you, yeah.

And it's the danger of being with someone

who's in sort of exactly the same industry

or has similar ambitions.

Because he wrote a book and it didn't do well.

Yes.

And then his second book or something didn't get picked up or something.

And then he couldn't tell her yet.

At the same time that Carrie's career was kind of skyrocketing.

And then she gave him some very valid feedback,

which every woman in the world agrees with.

About the scrunchie.

About the scrunchie. Of course.

Which to this day, I'm like burger take on the feedback.

And you know what?

Your publisher didn't pick you up.

Write a better book.

And instead, he just sits on the lounge going, oh, it's so hard for me.

Like I just hate those people who just sit there thinking that

poor Jack Berger, the world's out to get him.

Chip on shoulder people are particularly annoying.

Yeah. And dangerous.

It's hard when you're not doing well and people around you are doing well.

Like whether you're male or female, that is tricky.

Yes. But when you're in a relationship

and Elphi, you've kind of got this because your partner is in a similar sort of

like he's a creative as well.

I think you've got to feel like a team and that when the other person is succeeding,

you kind of have to lean into that.

Otherwise, it gets so toxic.

And then the way that he broke up with her is so emotionally immature.

And I just hate him.

I hate him so much.

Sorry, I can't.

Don't hate me.

Post it. I can't.

How do we feel about Aiden?

How many pairs of shoes does one person need?

That is not the way to get out of this alive.

I figure I'm going to need about half this space.

I figure you've got mentally ill.

What? You never wear most of this stuff?

Yet. I never wear most of this stuff.

Yes, someday I will.

We don't end up with Aiden.

Aiden is settling.

We shouldn't settle.

There's something about Aiden that doesn't sit right again.

I think he feels a bit sorry for himself.

I think he walks through the world going, oh, women leave me.

And it's like you're just a bit boring, mate.

Yeah, I just find him a little bit.

He's basic.

He is basic.

Truly.

And then also that thing where they get together again

after she's cheated on him.

That is just like victimhood at its finest.

Yes.

Like just going back for more.

Have some self-respect.

No, you people are too harsh.

Aiden 2.0 when he cut his hair and he had the bar with Steve.

I like that he forgave her.

That's my favorite season of Sex and the City is that one.

I am sorry.

And I know that you can't forget what happened.

But I hope that you can forgive me.

You have to forgive me.

I think Aiden's underrated because everyone held him up next to big

as if big was this exciting adventure.

And Aiden was granola when actually we talk about this all the time.

The person you should be with is the person who makes you feel safe and loved.

Aiden gets his win at the end with his boring woman.

I assume nobody ever meets her, I don't think.

But you know, he has the baby.

He lives the life like I will always have a good life.

But is it for you?

Not necessarily.

And you know what?

Aiden's not funny.

You ever heard Aiden say anything funny?

He's not a funny man.

Yeah.

All right, you have to tell us what you think out loud is.

It is nearly Sex and the City time again.

It's problematic.

We will explore it in many ways, but jump in the Facebook group

and tell us whether we're right or wrong about the worst men on the show.

Well, that's it for my very first podcast.

I'll get better.

So till next time, I'm Carrie Bradshaw and this is

Out Loud.

If you want to make out loud part of your routine five days a week,

we release segments on Tuesdays and Thursdays just for Mamma Mia subscribers.

To get full access, follow the link in the show notes

and a big thank you to all our current subscribers.

It's best and worst of the week.

Now, it's Jesse's last show, so I believe you should go first, Jesse,

because you've got to take the floor on this.

What has been your worst of the week?

I'm very sick of complaining, even though Out Loud is a very used to it.

It's kind of on brand, but this is my last worst in a while.

So I'll just lean into it.

Oh, pregnancy and somnia.

Can't remember if I've talked about it because my brain doesn't work anymore.

That was why on Wednesday, there's like one drug that I'm semi allowed to take.

And so I took it the night before and it made me crazy.

Oh, no, totally.

And I think it was night three of not sleeping and I started losing it.

It was like I was laying in bed at one point and I felt someone tap me on the shoulder,

but there was no one there.

Like weird things were happening and I was going, OK, this is not.

Everyone goes, oh, it's preparing you for the newborn phase.

And I'm like, I'd go for one hour sleep at this stage.

It is so, so tough.

So the insomnia plus like weird pregnancy pains, not a vibe.

I always thought maternity leave those couple of weeks to get before the baby comes

and you get to just hang out and wash the onesies would be really lovely.

But no, this is hell.

You are ready for baby to come, right?

You're ready.

So ready as someone who has had a pathological fear of childbirth my whole life.

The fear is gone.

The fear is completely gone.

We're going to try and correct her out of this recording versus doing maybe

the universe has been trying to give you such a shit time.

Yes.

That you're no longer afraid of childbirth.

There's no fear.

Just every surge pain, contraction, I'm going to be like, get her out.

And she needs to just sit over there for a minute.

She's just been a lot.

My best, though, is I did have a bit of a cute long weekend kind of doing

all the last minute things.

I dragged Luka out to do some baby shopping and get our onesies and just

it's like your onesies for you for the baby for the baby.

And it was just like, you know, something we'd never done before.

And we got all these onesies and then Luka was like, oh, but won't her little

feet get cold because these don't have little feet on which it's such idiots

with anything baby.

And then I kept trying to find little beanies and throw them in the trolley.

And he kept throwing them out, saying we've got enough beanies.

And, you know, watching him find a really good deal on Amazon for a nappy bin

was just quite, quite cute.

But it's this weird stage of he described it as it's like Act One is coming to an end.

It's the final pages of Act One and there's about to be Act Two.

And you're terrified, but just trying to lean in and enjoy what we can of this

last moment where it's just us.

It's the weirdest, weirdest experience.

But there is beauty among, among all of it.

Alfie, you're best and worst of the week, please.

OK, so my best and worst of the week.

This is a little bit of a cheat because they are, in fact, recommendations,

but nobody can come for me.

So whatever.

My worst of the week.

I have had quite an emotional couple of days, which I haven't had in a long time.

Like I would say on average, like I cry like once a year, usually.

Yes. And yet I have been quite emotional for the past couple of days.

So I sat down last night while Evan was at work and I pulled the blankie up around

my neck and I put on a good person, which is a movie written and directed by

Zach Braff starring Florence Pugh and Morgan Freeman.

Is it new?

I think it was released relatively recently.

I think it was released like two or three months ago.

Yeah. Is it the best film in the world?

No, it's a solid six in terms of writing.

But Florence Pugh's performance is so striking and so painful

that I just sat on my couch and I cried like a little baby for three hours.

Evan came home eventually and I had to go and open the door.

I waddled over to the door with my blanket around my shoulders

and I was still bawling and he was like, what has happened in here?

So in a way, it was kind of a good experience.

It was cathartic, but basically I have just been quite emotional.

Did you feel better afterwards?

Because I often I like a movie cry because I'm a bit like you,

a bit stunted in the tear department.

So sometimes if you get it all out, watching a film or a schlocky show,

you feel better.

Yes, although he didn't let me finish it.

So my boyfriend came home.

I've still got 25 minutes left and then I feel like I'll be fully released.

I guess. Where did you watch it?

Where can I find it?

It is on binge and it's like a two hour movie.

If you're feeling emotional, I would get into it.

But then my best of the week is a book that my brother has been going on

about for months, if not years, I haven't really been paying attention to him.

But the title of it is The Devil You Know, Encounters in Forensic Psychology.

So this was one of those books that was just kind of like sitting on my shelf

for weeks and I haven't actually picked it up.

But yesterday I started it and I could not stop reading it.

It is by a beautiful writer.

She is a practicing psychiatrist, Dr.

Gwen Adshid, although that's a British name,

so it might be pronounced like Bob or something.

And she works at Broadmoor.

Wow, that's the place they put all the really, really bad people.

Yes, but it is such an incredibly empathetic book.

It does exactly what like criminal reporting doesn't usually do,

which is takes this deep dive into

relatability and the really human aspects of the people who have committed

the most atrocious crimes.

And it is fascinating.

And basically, the thesis of the book is that you call these people monsters.

You think that you can't relate to them, and yet at their very core,

there is always something that you can connect with.

So I highly recommend it.

I'm only halfway through, but it is an incredible book.

My worst is very petty and silly.

I tried to be cool in January.

I went and got multiple piercings in my ears, not anywhere else.

Don't get excited.

I always had three holes in my right ear

because I was a rebellious teenager in the eighties.

That's how old I am.

And I had multiple piercings in this ear and none at all in this one, right?

Because I don't know, maybe that was cool in the eighties, or maybe I was just an idiot.

But anyway, I decided to even them up and I went and got multiple piercings.

I thought I could be like Mia.

I can have a curated ear.

Yes.

All I've had is pus and pain.

For whatever reason, my left ear, the piercings do not want to take.

I wear cool earrings, then they get infected.

It hurts, it hurts, it hurts.

I don't understand why one hole can be fine and another hole can be festy.

It's not pretty.

It's not good.

Is it to do with the type of metal?

Because people always say, oh, my ears need real gold.

And I'm like, well, my ears aren't rich enough to afford real gold.

Is it not because Holly spends her entire life with headphones on?

Like, surely it just can't heal because it's in like a little terrarium.

It probably is very true, Elfie.

And I've tried different materials.

I've tried titanium and all this.

It's just annoying.

What I actually think is the universe is telling me, you're not cool.

You're not Mia.

Just go back to the stupid ordinary earrings.

Holly, you're extremely cool in your own way.

Thank you, Elfie.

My best, I'm so excited to share this.

And Out Loud have messaged me.

Out Loud is always sending me things they think I like, which is great.

And a very wise Out Loud alerted me to something that I didn't know was in existence.

And that is that Sarah, the Duchess of York, the one who used to be married to

problematic Prince Andrew, the mother of Eugenie and Beatrice, has a podcast now.

You know, I don't like to be critical, Jesse, but it is the worst thing you have ever heard

in your life.

And it is brilliant.

And you've listened to every minute of it.

It's called Tea Talks.

And it's Duchess Sarah and her best friend, entrepreneur Sarah Thompson.

Just having a cup of tea and chatting about things.

And because they are among the richest and most privileged people in the world,

the things they talk about are not really very relatable.

And they have to call them out.

Every time they mention something unrelatable by yelling,

posh talk, posh talk is a tiny example of what I'm talking about.

Have you called posh chat?

You've got to call posh chat.

Oh, OK.

Yeah.

OK.

Just so I'm declaring posh chat.

Declaring.

A great friend of mine gave me a Rolex watch once.

And I was wearing it on the ocean, on a boat, posh chat.

And it fell off into the sea.

And I saw exactly where it fell.

It was very deep.

And you sent a diver.

I dove.

You dove.

I did.

Do you like that?

I said dove, not dived.

That's very posh.

I dove.

I like that.

Yeah, it is.

I dove.

That's why you say dove.

I dove.

I dove.

So I went into the sea and I went down so deep with no nothing on.

So desperate for that.

So desperate for my Rolex watch.

Suddenly, yeah.

Yes.

And I got it.

Wow.

It is full of stories like that.

The other lady has a villa in Spain

and she's always talking about that.

Sarah Ferguson talks about how she's inherited the Queen's corgis.

And how they don't get along with her Irish wolf.

Like, it's just insane.

And it's been the best thing of my week.

It's made me smile so much.

It's so bad.

It makes us seem incredibly professional,

which obviously we are.

This is exactly what the world needs.

This is exactly what the world needs.

And we need to start a segment called posh chat.

Like when I brought up the other week,

my bath privilege, I should have prefaced that

by saying posh chat.

I've got a bath.

And warning, warning.

Oh my God.

This is so exciting.

Wow.

You have a bath?

I have a bath.

Oh my God.

And I was really reluctant to bring it up

because I was like, don't come at me.

You're not one of us calm people.

Exactly.

Exactly.

Wow.

We've got two recommendations.

My first one is a story by our missing co-host,

Mia Friedman.

So Mia has a favorite theory that she and I

like to argue about a lot about helicopter parenting

and how she believes it's ruined the world

and invented a generation of what she would

like to call snowflakes.

And I don't always agree with her about this.

However, she has been working and working

and working away on this cover story for Mama Mia

about it, which is called

How Helicopter Parents Broke a Generation

by a helicopter parent, Mia Friedman,

because she, as well as being critical

of helicopter parenting, which of course

is the idea that you're always hovering

so you're never letting kids make their own mistakes.

And there's a lot of theory about how it's

bred a much less resilient generation.

But she also cops to being one.

Anyway, it is a beautiful, beautiful piece, my God.

I mean, as if we didn't already know

that Mia Friedman could write,

but it is so well argued.

It is so insightful.

It's funny in places.

I wanted to argue with it in other places.

When I was looking at it before it was published,

I was supposed to offer any helpful editing suggestions.

And instead, I just argued in all the comments.

Are you going to argue with her about it

when she's back?

Yes, probably.

But it is really good.

If you haven't read it, go and read it.

We will put a link in the show notes.

She's pretty good at Mia Friedman.

I hate to say it, but she's not here,

so I can say it now.

It is a brilliant, thoughtful piece.

You should all go and read it

so that we can argue about it next week.

Jessie, you've got two more things

to tell everybody about.

Yes.

Once you are done reading Mia's piece,

I have a book recommendation.

It is called I Have Some Questions For You

by Rebecca Mackay.

Holly, have you heard of this?

No.

Okay, you'd love it.

It is about a woman named Bodie,

and she's in her 40s,

and she returns to the boarding school

she went to as a teenager.

And she returns as sort of a teacher.

She is teaching podcasting and film studies and stuff.

And one of her students is doing a project

like a podcast series on a murder

that took place at the school

back when Bodie was there.

So it was a girl that she vaguely knew.

A man has been convicted of the crime.

They're just not sure that it was him.

It's Pacey, and it's beautifully written.

Her last novel was nominated for a Pulitzer Prize.

Like, she's a very, very highly respected writer.

Sounds fantastic.

It's called I Have Some Questions For You

by Rebecca Mackay.

And it was only released, I think,

a few months ago, earlier this year.

So it's very sort of topical, interesting, love it.

And before I go, I am handing over the baton

to my twin sister class, Stevens,

who will be keeping my seat warm while I am on maternity leave.

It's very convenient for us that there are two of you.

Exactly.

I know that's a slightly dismissive phrase

that shits you both,

because you are very different people

with very different, like,

interest levels of intellect, all that stuff.

But you are, it's very convenient for us.

And we don't have to change the cover art.

No, people won't notice.

It's all very, very easy.

Often what you do in a job,

with, like a mat leave,

is obviously you do a bit of a handover.

And so I got Claire in the studio to do a handover,

and we had a very private conversation

that was recorded about how to handle grumpy co-hosts,

shitty pictures,

me as crappy in case you missed it ideas,

how you should be nice to the producers and why,

how to deal with the out louders,

whether or not to read the reviews.

We went through everything.

Claire asked questions.

That is a subscriber special.

So we have a bonus handover episode.

Here is a taste of what we chat about.

Yeah, if the out louders want to give me any pointers.

No, no, no, no.

Don't do not ask the out louders for feedback.

They will give you a lot of feedback,

and it will hurt your feelings.

Okay. Thank you.

All right, we love the out louders.

We do not ask for feedback.

I have one final question.

Oh, what is it?

Do you read the reviews?

Never, ever, ever read the reviews.

The reviews are written by trolls.

The reviews are never good.

We do not find good things in reviews.

Okay, I learnt this years ago.

If you read a single review when you're in my seat,

you'll be immediately fired.

It's against the law.

How do you cope when people say mean things about you?

I watch my dog lick her foot and I get over it.

Okay, so that's what you do.

Just move on with your life.

That episode is available now.

Link in the show notes.

Thank you so much out louders.

I'm going to miss you so much,

and I will be popping up in the group

and all around the place putting in my two cents

and yelling back at the podcast.

We are going to miss you so much, Jesse Stevens,

but we cannot wait to meet your daughter

and also to see you become a parent.

It's going to be incredible, and we love you so much.

So, God, I hope you get some rest.

That's all I'm going to say.

That's the only thing I wish for you at this point

is a tiny bit of sleep and rest.

Yes, please.

That is all we've got time for on Mama Mia Out Loud today.

Thank you, Elfie Scott, for filling in for Mia Friedman.

Thank you to all of you for listening to Australia's

number one news and pop culture show.

This episode was produced by Emilyne Gazillas

and Susanna Makin.

The executive producer is Eliza Ratliff

with Audio Production by Leah Porges.

Bye.

Bye.

Bye.

Shout out to any Mama Mia subscribers listening.

If you love the show and you want to support us,

subscribing to Mama Mia is the very best way to do so.

There's a link in the episode description.

Machine-generated transcript that may contain inaccuracies.