Mamamia Out Loud: Sis, Is This Your Man?

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Mamma Mia Out Loud!

Hello and welcome to Mamma Mia Out Loud.

It's what women are actually talking about on Monday, the 23rd of October.

I'm Holly Wainwright.

I'm Mia Friedman.

And I'm Claire Stevens.

And on the show today, who's to blame for the so-called discipline crisis raging around

Australian schools?

Also, Jackie O's piece of divorce advice that gives everybody a time frame they can work

with.

And sis, is that your man?

How to uncover a cheat in 2023?

But first, Mia Friedman.

In case you missed it, Italian Prime Minister Giorgia Maloney has announced on social media

that she's separating from her longtime partner and the father of her daughter, Andrea Giambruno.

That he was recorded propositioning another woman to have a threesome with them both.

He is an Italian talk show host and he was caught making explicit comments to female

colleagues behind the scenes of his talk show.

So these comments were recorded.

He didn't know they were recorded.

Sounds like a Mike situation where he says to a female colleague, how do you do, darling?

Do you know that someone or other and I are having an affair?

But we're looking for a third person as we do threesomes.

So it's not actually clear if he was actually inviting this person to have a threesome with

him and the Prime Minister or him and another woman that he's having the affair with.

And he also said, we also do foursomes.

Would you like to be part of our working group?

I've never heard an orgy described as a working group.

He has now been kicked to the curb.

She said, Prime Minister Maloney on social media, my relationship with Andrea Giambruno,

which lasted almost 10 years, ends here.

Our paths have diverged for some time and the time has come to acknowledge it.

They were never married, much like Holly.

And now they are not together.

They have a child together, obviously within the serious relationship for a long time.

Also like Holly.

Yes.

Who does not have a working group to our knowledge.

No, absolutely not.

The use of corporate speak to describe cheating is new for me.

He also made some really, really creepy predatory comments that we won't repeat here, but I

think they'll probably be further investigation.

Not a good guy.

I think we can conclude.

No, not a good guy.

I wonder if it's the first time that a sitting Prime Minister has had to make a social media

statement condemning her partner for inviting people into threesomes.

I know.

Could be history in the making.

What I find interesting about this story and it's a bit of a Barnaby Joyce parallel is

that Georgia Maloney, she really proposes traditional family values.

Super conservative.

Very conservative politician and it is always a little bit tense when it is those politicians

that this happens to because you go, oh, there's a big gap between what you're proposing and

the reality of your life.

And that's what we saw in Australia with Barnaby Joyce and his traditional family values and

then having a baby with another woman while he was still married.

On Saturday, the cover of Good Weekend read, class struggle, the growing discipline crisis

in our schools.

The feature was written by Jordan Baker and posed the question, Australian classrooms are

more disorderly than ever, prompting an intensifying debate about how to control bad behaviour.

The question is, how do you disrupt the disruptors?

Baker spoke to teachers and principals at schools in New South Wales, Victoria and Queensland

about different approaches to discipline and how they manage student behaviour.

She identified that there are a lot of reasons for disruptive classrooms in Australia right

now ranging from the complications of technology such as social media fights, the lingering

effects of COVID-19 lockdowns on social development and obviously there are parts of Australia

where we had longer lockdowns than anywhere else in the world, limited resources to deal

with skyrocketing diagnoses of autism, anxiety and ADHD, a crisis of adult authority as

one expert described it and a more diverse social landscape than ever before in which

children are bringing wildly differing family norms into a classroom.

And throughout the feature, there are examples like one teacher who called a mother to tell

her that her child had been in a fight and the mother responded with relief that her

son wasn't a wimp.

There are parents who have offered to sit detention for their kids, that seems to be

a common theme.

That wasn't me.

And parents asking for the education system to fit their autistic child rather than the

other way round.

You can see how profound the challenges are.

Parents seem exasperated, parents are frustrated and it raises the question how discipline

is meant to work in 2023.

Holly, as a mum with two kids in New South Wales' education system, what did you glean

from this piece?

Well, I read every single word because, yeah, I've got a kid in primary and a kid in secondary

in public schools in New South Wales.

So I found it absolutely fascinating and very insightful, but it didn't really draw any

conclusions which is fine.

I don't really think that's what it was meant to do because they interviewed, for example,

principals from some of the strictest schools in the world.

They interviewed a principal from a school in London that is often referred to as the

strictest school in Britain, where you get detention if you forget your pencil case,

where everything is picked up.

And then they also interviewed a principal of a school in Sydney's West that deals with

sort of the last chance kids who've been kicked out of other schools that doesn't really have

rules at all.

And both those schools are working for the kids who are in them, right?

So as always, these issues are very complex.

And one of the things that I find a bit frustrating is when we try and draw very simple things

like, well, parents don't respect teachers anymore.

So that's that.

I mean, there is an element of that, but that's certainly not everything.

And then also when people say, well, the problem is there are too many kids with too high needs

and they're disrupting it for everybody else.

So I find both those arguments frustrating.

And I liked how this story explored them all, but didn't necessarily land anywhere.

However, I don't know where that leaves us.

I mean, I understand that there's more understanding, more awareness, and therefore more recognition

of issues like ADHD, autism, anxiety, all of those issues around mental health.

At the same time, discipline within schools has changed.

I mean, if you want to make a child laugh, just tell them that when we were at school,

there was the cane and teachers used to be able to hit children with sticks on the bum.

Like it's wild when you think about it.

They've always been disruptive kids at school.

Is it now that there's just no method to bring them into line or that we don't even philosophically

believe that they should be brought into line and fit into the systems that we've always

had?

There seems to be two ways of thinking.

One is that behavior is a choice and one is that behavior is a child communicating something.

And as a teacher, you're meant to respond to what they're communicating.

And that question over whether behavior is a choice is such a huge philosophical question

that I think we're going to grapple with until the end of time.

You look at things like bad behavior at all stages of life and you can identify where

it's come from and what that person is trying to say and how they may have learned that

behavior.

But I guess my sense is if there aren't consequences for that behavior, then why would you ever

change it?

What this article didn't pick up on but I think is a huge glaring element in this conversation

is that the power dynamic has shifted when it comes to institutions.

So I think we're facing a reckoning where we're somewhat justified in being suspicious

of institutions.

And after the Royal Commission into institutional responses to child sexual abuse, after several

huge cultural moments where we've seen how institutions have failed, we've lost faith

in them.

So parents aren't willing to just trust a school and trust their sense of justice.

And I don't think you can necessarily blame individual parents for that.

You don't know what they've been through.

But if institutions are undermined, then they can't be effective.

And because of these particular cases, what happens is in schools, if say a teacher physically

has to stand in the way of a student to stop them hurting somebody or God forbid has to

physically restrain them.

There will be a complaint from the parent, there will be a full investigation, that teacher

will be suspended.

There's all sorts of shame for the teacher in being investigated for some kind of thing

that they've done wrong in their career, that the damage that that does.

But that needs to happen because of the undermining and the lack of faith that we have in institutions.

Well, yes, it does happen.

But I think we do also focus a lot on the worst of parental responses to teacher interventions.

I trust teachers very much.

But what I do struggle with as a parent of a kid who does have neurodiversity is there

is some truth to the argument that you'll hear a lot from parents in that cohort that

school isn't evolving to meet the changing needs of kids.

And that isn't necessarily only about neurodiversity.

It's also about shortening attention spans, the world we live in.

This is the reality of the world.

And no matter how much there may be a cohort that's like, well, school is school.

It is getting increasingly unrealistic to think that you can invite five-year-olds into

a school and ask them to sit down for hours at a time and focus.

And I know that not every school does that.

I know there are so many different models of education.

But fundamentally, the basics of public education haven't really changed that much in generations

in terms of you turn up, you sit down, we'll talk at you, then you leave.

When I say that, I don't mean in any way that all teachers do is talk at people.

And the thing is, is I know from my own experience of my son, who would have absolutely been

labeled disruptive when he was first in primary school because he was incapable of sitting

still and doing that.

And he would definitely disrupt a class he spent most of year one sitting outside the

principal's office.

I got a first-hand look into those of us who are older.

We think about the naughty kids in inverted commas in our class and whether or not they

were encouraged or whether or not they slipped through the cracks to use the cliche.

That was a moment for my son when he could have slipped through the cracks and his schooling

would have changed if it hadn't have been for really invested teachers, actually, who

sort of said, look, we think that we need better systems of support for Billy and spoke

to us about it.

And then we worked out a way to help that situation out.

The problem with these days, there's just not enough discipline argument is that Billy

would just be a naughty kid in the headmaster's office.

And the people who say that teachers shouldn't be expected to address these needs, of course

they shouldn't.

Like, they're not counselors.

That's not what they're there for.

But on the other hand, without teachers giving a shit about kids like Billy, they've got

nothing.

You know what I mean?

It's really complicated.

I really hate pitting teachers against parents because I know that's a reality, but it's

not a blanket rule.

But in that instance, when it was a pattern that was going on and on and it was clear

there were other issues at play, the fact that teachers gave a shit and were invested

and sort of would bend was really important.

And we have the competing needs of the children whose classes are being disrupted.

And I remember with one of my kids casually mentioning when I was asking about their day

and then we had to evacuate the classroom.

And I said, oh, why?

And it was because one kid was throwing desks around and I was like quite shocked to hear

this.

And they said, oh, no, it happens, you know, every few days we have to evacuate because

this kid's having some issues.

Now, this kid was clearly supported by the school and parents and got through and is

now a successful young adult who didn't slip through the cracks.

But that was massively disruptive to the teacher, to the school, to the other kids, to the principal.

So at what point do we have to also think about the effect of that and the cost of that?

And again, there's no answer.

My heart goes out to teachers.

I think it is just so challenging.

There is no answer to that, but school is for lots of things, right?

There is a small cohort of kids at school who are there for academic achievement and

they are going to be in that top 5% on the ATAR and that's what it's about.

And schools, particularly fee-charging schools, they want those kids.

Make our school look good, move us up the chart, right?

The reality is school is also there for all the other kids.

They're never going to get to that stage, but they still deserve to be taught, they still

deserve to be safe, they still deserve to be encouraged.

And I would argue that there are some important life lessons to be learned from the fact that

you're sitting in a classroom with kids of all kinds of different backgrounds, needs,

ability levels.

That school isn't just about getting you to the end with the highest possible mark.

Like, it is for some people, but for the vast majority of kids, it isn't.

And so when I say that schooling hasn't evolved, and again, such a blanket statement, I can

think of all the teachers throwing their phones right now, it's also because we still have

that model, whereas vocational education is so important for a lot of kids.

And, you know, I just think that there is a reason why a lot of parents are kind of

saying, well, can't we throw the rulebook out a bit and start looking at different models

of success and different ways of learning?

And like, it's a complicated beast, but I would always argue in the same way that we

said last week that the measure of a successful marriage isn't always just that it stays together.

The measure of a successful school shouldn't just be that the biggest percentage of kids

got the highest data marks in the state.

And I think this article and this conversation is a testament to the fact that for some reason

we think of schools in this really siloed way and that like discipline needs to be solved

by teachers in schools, when really the solution to a lot of these problems is multi-dimensional.

It's a village because schooling, education, discipline interacts with disability, it interacts

with health, it interacts with domestic violence, it interacts with so many different elements.

It shouldn't all be on teachers and we're not going to get the best results if it is.

Three years is how long Jackie O, whose real name is Jackie Henderson, Jackie O is just

a nickname.

That's how long she says it takes to get over a divorce or get through a divorce.

I shouldn't say get over a divorce.

I've wanted to talk to her for a really, really long time and she's said no and it's

driven me crazy and she said no and said no and said no in case you don't know who Jackie

O is and you're thinking, wait, wasn't she married to JFK?

No, she is the highest paid, most powerful person equally shared with her radio co-host

Kyle Sanderlands in the Australian media industry.

She's the highest paid, most successful and most powerful woman in Australian media, not

just in radio, certainly not just in breakfast radio.

Such an interesting reframing of her, Mia, because as well as the people who are listening

to this and thinking, wasn't she married to JFK, there will also be a cohort of people

who are listening to this and go, oh, isn't she that blonde lady who apologizes for Kyle

Sanderlands all the time?

And actually the facts, as you just stated, she is possibly the most highly paid, therefore

influential media personality in the country, female media personality in the country.

That's right.

The timing was really interesting and the reason why she wouldn't sit down with me for

a long time sort of becomes apparent when you listen to the interview, but at the moment

she and Kyle are negotiating to renew their contract.

When they left their former radio station and de-camped to the competition, the company

they went to became suddenly very successful.

So they know they're worth, they use it, but then at the same time she's 48, she's single,

she's just gone through her second divorce and it was a really interesting conversation.

Here's just a little bit about Jackie talking about the complexity of divorce.

You might feel some sort of relief in there and you think, okay, this decision's now been

made and we're kind of going our separate ways, isn't this great?

And then the reality hits and then you have to start dealing with separating of assets

and child custody and it doesn't really matter how great your relationship is.

That part is so painful and so triggering for everyone I know who's been through it.

I found it so interesting because friends of mine who have gone through or are going

through divorce, it's very recognizable what Jackie says that often, particularly not if

you've been devastatingly betrayed or there's abuse involved or anything like that.

But we were talking recently about how the majority of divorces in Australia and America

and various places are instigated by women.

So it's very familiar to me that there's this rush of relief and adrenaline and kind

of like, yes, and now my next chapter begins, like everything in life, then it's much more

complicated.

So I loved hearing her say that because I've got people I love around me who are like,

what's wrong with me?

Why aren't I over this yet?

Even if it was their decision to go, why aren't I over this yet?

I shouldn't still be dwelling on my relationship.

I mean, obviously Jackie has a lot of assets to split when she talked about that bit.

But even the most ordinary divorce, if you've built a life together and you've been together

a lot of time, there are a lot of logistics.

And if there are children involved, many more logistics.

It is almost impossible to get through that process without bitterness, without any anger

at all.

So I found it really refreshing to hear her say that.

And then I imagine some of my friends who are a bit earlier in the process listening

and going, oh my God, three years.

And so I don't know.

I found that really interesting.

Her talking about what happens once lawyers get involved, the fact that you can make all

sorts of promises to each other, even when you decide to get divorced.

It's like, I'm not going to do that to you and we're not going to play those games.

We're not going to go tit for tat.

Like we're just not going to be those people.

And as soon as lawyers get involved and you have a lawyer saying to you, oh no, you have

to request this because if you don't do it now, it's never going to happen.

Like this is where you need to ask for everything you think you're entitled to.

Because you only get one shot when it's done.

I've always thought when you break up with someone, the person you break up with is a

different person to the person you are in a relationship with, which is kind of why

you're breaking up is because something has changed.

It sort of rung true to me that I was like, oh, of course, when you're going through that

negotiation process, you're negotiating and you are coming up with a plan of how to end

this marriage with a person who isn't the person that you were married to.

Those kind of core things that kept you together have disintegrated and they are looking forward

to the future and you are looking forward to the future and you are no longer putting

each other first.

And that's why it gets so messy and so tense.

And I really liked her honesty about that because I have heard her talk about Lee like

a lot.

They seem pretty amicable.

Yeah.

But to talk about that phase of tension and pain, even things like custody, like I just

cannot imagine sitting down and having a conversation about we had this child and now I'm only going

to see the child 50% of the time.

I wrote a piece a while ago that she is clearly in a phase probably because she's three years

on from her divorce, how far along she is.

You were saying how you've been trying to get her on no filter forever.

She seems to be in a phase now where she's really, you know, she's looking great.

You can't really talk about her at the minute without mentioning that, even though she talks

about how irritating it is that it's all anyone wants to talk about.

She's looking great, but she's sort of clearly in a new phase.

She bought a new house, starting new businesses.

She's interviewing Gwyneth Paltrow on Friday night and, you know, she's very much more

public with her daughter, with her love life, all those things.

I know also a lot of women of that age and myself included who there'll be a phase in

your life where for reasons you can't even really articulate, but you just want to hide.

You know, you want to hide even in the photos with your friends.

You don't want to be social.

You don't want to be out there doing things.

It's not like that when that happens, that's it then.

You're just sort of middle-aged and washed up or whatever words you want to put around

it and that's it.

She's kind of going ready for the next act, which is, I think, quite relatable, even though

she does it in a very unrelatable way.

And she's on hinge.

She's on the apps, which was a surprise.

She said, well, I can't go into a bar.

It just doesn't work for me.

And also that's just not how people meet.

So she said, I'm just on the apps and it's fun.

What's interesting is that those few years, because this relaunch phase and this, you

know, she said that she's given up alcohol and she's changed her lifestyle and you can

see that she's newly confident and feeling like she's ready to emerge in the world again.

It was not right after they split.

No.

Even though there can be a lot of adrenaline around that, as she said, because it's like

finally I've made a decision.

I had dinner with another friend last week who had also decided to split with her partner

at a similar age.

And she's like, you know, I was thinking about it for 18 months.

And that was just so hard.

I was so relieved when the decision was made.

She's now sort of six months or nine months down the track.

And it's kind of sinking in what it means.

And I'm always interested in women talking about divorce.

We know Out Loud is very interested in it.

So have a listen to that interview.

There's a link in the show notes.

If you want to make Mum Mia Out Loud part of your routine five days a week,

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To get full access, follow the link in the show notes.

And a big thank you to all our current subscribers.

You're on a date.

You're at a restaurant.

A woman approaches the table.

You think she's the waitress.

She's not the waitress.

She says, look, sorry to interrupt your evening.

But the guy opposite you, I was dating him until recently.

And while I was dating him, he was also in a relationship with somebody else.

This was the experience of a woman who was being called Sarah.

And it's explored in a story that Tori Shepherd wrote from The Guardian this weekend

about the new ways cheaters are exposed in 2023.

Now, that example obviously is kind of the old fashioned way

that a cheater might be exposed, a random encounter face to face.

And what are the chances of you being in exactly that restaurant?

What's becoming much, much more common is finding the person you're seeing

is also seeing someone else without your knowledge via a Facebook group.

Like one in Sydney called Sis Is This Your Man?

And that's the topic of a story on Mum and Mia today.

We'll put the link in our show notes.

In this group, you can post a photo of a partner you've been dating

or perhaps your partner who you're suspicious might not be being entirely honest with you

and see if anyone else is having the same experience with the same person.

The guidelines for a group like this read things like no fighting in here.

Just post a photo of your man to see if anyone claims him.

This is a safe space.

We're not here to start fights.

And then obviously they have things like put a photo in here with his first name and location.

Be vague in the post like I have tea on this guy.

And then you can say things in the comments more freely.

Don't post sensitive information.

Don't screenshot anything.

This is part of a wider series of groups, too, called Are We Dating The Same Guy?

There are more than 120 of these individual Facebook groups around Australia

where women share red flags about individual men to check out he's not dating someone else.

Basically went to this Facebook group for Are We Dating The Same Man?

And posted a picture of him in there.

Just a picture. No words.

All these women came forward.

And long story short, I basically found out he was in another relationship,

not just on dates, a whole relationship with a woman that moved here from out of state

to be here with him once after we were already exclusive.

Generally speaking, by the way, these are groups moderated by volunteers.

So this is not a business venture.

This is like a Facebook group that's set up by women for women to share this information around.

Is this the sisterhood at its finest?

I think it's a really clever way for women to protect each other

and to stop a cycle at the beginning before the charm offensive and manipulation starts.

And you're stuck and somebody says, I'm dating him.

And you say, she seems like a psycho, like because you're so you're so embedded in a manipulative relationship.

The Australian Institute of Criminology has found that three and four online

daters had experienced some form of sexual violence facilitated by a dating app,

whether that be sexual harassment, abusive or threatening language,

image based sexual abuse and stalking.

I think just the existence of this many groups shows how big this problem is

that women have had to respond to things here, right?

There's the cheating thing.

And then there's the red flag.

Exactly.

And does it all happen in the like, Susie, is this your man?

Is that purely for cheating?

Or is it about, oh, I dated him and he sent me a dick pic and then wouldn't leave me alone?

Other stuff comes up.

So people all say he was awful.

He manipulated me.

You learn all sorts of things about these men.

I mean, I have thought before it's sad because it's not a very dignified way

to find out that you're being cheated on or that something bad is happening.

Like there'd be women who have been with their partners for decades and have kids

together who would find out their partner is a philanderer in this context.

What is the dignified way?

Having someone ring you, having to catch you with a burner phone?

Maybe having it be a bit more private.

I mean, I do think every now and then I'll see something where, you know,

you say that somebody's cheated or whatever and all the comments are like,

leave him, leave him, leave him.

And it might not be that simple for that particular woman in that particular context.

So I'm sensitive to the fact that this rhetoric might not fit the nuances

of what every woman is going through.

But I think the concept of it is genius.

I remember thinking even, you know, when I was a lot younger,

if women just protected each other more, cheating and heterosexual relationships

would be so much harder.

Like if we just kind of made a bit of a pact where it's like,

I won't do that to somebody else.

Not everyone does it knowingly, right?

No, exactly.

Most of these women don't.

It's like, I'm divorced, babe.

I'm divorced.

There's a very famous example of this that went very, very wrong in the United States.

Around the time of Me Too, it was called the shitty media men list.

And it was an Excel spreadsheet that was open to anyone who wanted to add to it.

And it was started by a particular woman, her name's Moira Donegan.

This is just formalized versions of the whisper network that's always existed

among women where it's look out for him.

He's a sleaze.

Look out for that guy.

He's very handsy.

Don't be alone with that guy.

So it's always existed women protecting other women.

But what technology and social media has allowed it to do is to be written down.

Now, the danger in this is, well, many fold in the amplification of it,

but also the legal ramifications.

So on this list, the shitty media men list, there was everything from people accusing

different men of rape to had a bit of a creepy conversation with him at a party one time.

And some of the allegations were very specific.

Some were just more generic.

What happened is that it was circulated very widely.

Women could add to it.

It was viewed many, many times before it was then taken down.

But of course, it had circulated through the media.

Lots of people had seen it.

One of the men who was named on that list has taken legal action to sue the woman who started it.

And that's gone through the legal system in America.

I'm not quite sure where it's at, but it's done that thing where it's ruined many, many lives.

You know, there will always be bad actors and things are subjective.

And what we don't know about that.

Now I sound like I'm making apologies for shitty people, but I'm not.

What we don't know is you know it may have ruined the lives of some of those men.

No, but women as well.

So it's now part of this legal case.

The IP of every woman who viewed that list, who added to it, they've all been pulled in.

And the thing with Facebook, we know in Facebook groups, Facebook is not liable for stuff that goes in there.

The people who run the group are the ones who are liable.

Individuals aren't even necessarily liable, although you can go after individuals as well.

So yeah, I get nervous.

So there is a defamation risk, right?

It's small, but it's possible that a man finds out.

And one of the codes in these groups is that you must not show a man that he's in there.

But of course people do.

Like I mean, you know, when people are flawed, there is a small defamation risk there for sure.

If he's going to go all the way with that.

What's more likely is it also could inflame a situation.

Because if these guys are really bad actors and then they find out that a woman's put a picture of them

in one of those groups, it can inflame an already sort of toxic situation.

But I do think it's glorious in some ways because I'm just going to say it.

I think that online dating and dating apps in particular have vastly improved the cheating prospects

of lots of very ordinary dudes who otherwise may not actually be that popular.

But on the apps, they can be whatever they want to be.

And they have a lot of access to a lot of women.

It happened to me actually 100 years ago.

I was dating not on the apps, but on, do you remember RSVP?

I do.

I was dating on RSVP for a while.

That's not how I met Brent, but that's by the by.

And I was seeing this guy and there was something about the way he used to talk about his ex-partner

that made me think that maybe she wasn't that ex.

But I was like, you know, I believed him.

And then I got the call one day of like, you're definitely dating my partner.

Oh, wow.

And that's happened to friends of mine as well.

They'll get a call of just seeing your messages on my partner's phone.

He's playing you.

He's dating me.

Like this is very, very common.

And so anything that arms women against that, because if they're not that bothered, it's fine.

If everyone's just there for fun, that's fine.

I'm not saying that cheating is fine, but you know what I mean?

The stakes aren't that high.

But if somebody is there for a genuine relationship and then they find this stuff out.

And also if someone's misrepresenting themselves.

Yeah, it can be devastating.

And so there's a bit of me that loves that women are wily enough to sort of formalize

the whisper network.

But it can be weaponized against them, as you've said Mia.

So you do, you need to have an element of caution before you act in this way.

What's the etiquette if someone calls you and says, Hey sis, it's my man?

Well, certainly what I said all those years ago was, well, I'm terribly sorry.

I had no idea.

I know.

I think you'd be surprised when I interviewed Brittany Hockley recently.

She has the most amazing story about this, that she was dating somebody for years.

Oh, yes.

And then found out that her partner, the guy she was dating was dating somebody else,

planning the exact same future with them, like exact same baby names, exact same rings,

exact same, like everything.

And when they finally got in contact, they spent like seven hours on the phone together,

going through emails and texts.

It's very bonding.

Yeah.

And I absolutely love that idea.

And I think these Facebook, like what they do is they save people time.

Because if you're a woman, you do not want to waste your time.

And then having somebody say, Oh yeah, by the way, that guy, like he's dating everybody,

there are some really interesting ones where people will say, yeah, he's been on the apps

for like 10 years.

He never changes his age.

So he's clearly not 30 anymore.

That's an old photo.

Like looking out for each other.

The one flag I do have is that when you've got tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands of

members, you don't know how everybody is using it.

And people's standards of what constitutes bad behavior is different and also people change.

And we know that especially in the context of relationships, certain language can get misused.

So for example, if somebody ghosts you, that is not necessarily gaslighting or emotional

immaturity.

It could just be that they didn't feel it.

So I think you've got to kind of read between the lines.

Women are smart, right?

I've dated people who I'm sure their exes wouldn't all have lovely things to say about them.

At least if I know, then I can make that decision.

So I think that, you know, the woman in the restaurant, for example, back at the beginning

of the story, when that woman came over and said that, it doesn't mean she has to immediately

walk away from that guy and never see him again.

But she now has some information that she can explore with him and have in the back of her mind.

So I think, I know what you mean.

It's like, well, somebody just not calling you for a few days.

Does that deserve their photo in the group?

But I think that we should give women the benefit of being smart enough to make those

distinctions for themselves.

I've got a recommendation before we go for a TV show.

Is it about sport?

And it's not.

For me, it's given me a hard time out loudest because of my Friday recommendation about

Rexham.

I tried to watch it.

She tried to watch it.

I had high hopes because she started watching Beckham for the second time.

Didn't like it.

Okay, that's fine.

You don't have to.

That's too much sport in it.

This one isn't.

You'll like this one.

Oh, there's a little bit of sport.

All of you have read, I think, lessons in chemistry.

Loved the book by Bonnie Garmus.

It was made into a TV show almost before it was finished.

That book almost before.

Because they knew.

They press send.

It was optioned by Apple TV and it's now on our screens and it stars Brie Larson,

who is Captain Marvel.

You're on the verge of a major scientific breakthrough.

This institution has a reputation based on the world-class scientists,

not the theories of a pretty lab tech.

We have rules.

You're firing me.

I would like to offer you a job as the host of our cooking show.

Are you concussed?

No. You are poised to become a TV star.

Welcome to the final show.

We're live in five, four, three.

Welcome viewers.

This is separate six.

Is it a TV series or a movie?

It's a series.

Of course it is.

I've only watched two, so I can't necessarily vouch for all of it.

But the first two that I watched, I really enjoyed.

It's funny because Mia said before,

oh, I didn't really, even though I loved the book, I didn't really.

And I was a bit like that on Saturday night.

I was like, and then Brent was like, let's give it a go.

Anyway, it's great.

It's very well made.

Brie Larson is amazing.

She's actually perfect in that role.

Perfect.

She's just the right kind of brittle and the guy who plays Calvin.

I've seen him before, but I don't really know him well.

He's called Lewis Pullman.

He's also great.

Just the right kind of strange.

It's about a woman who's a scientist

who it's set in the 50s or the 60s.

Very early 50s.

51 is started.

Pre-feminism, first wave feminism.

And she then becomes surprisingly a TV star

while she's also a single mother.

It is such a good book.

Okay, good.

I'll go watch that.

And she's such a complicated female lead, which I love.

Anyway, it's on Apple TV and it's called Lessons in Chemistry.

And for my money, it's a very good adaptation.

I know if you love a book, sometimes you're trepidatious.

I've been burnt so much in the last few years,

like me loving a book and then seeing a movie or a TV series.

You're talking about called ads, friend?

Yeah, maybe I'm talking about called ads.

I have to say, my initial reaction to this was,

did it need to be a TV show?

Is it going to translate?

But okay, I trust you.

I do trust you.

I love it.

It's really good.

If you're looking for something else to listen to,

on Thursday's subscriber episode,

Mia let Elfie and I go through her makeup bag.

And she shared some of her favorite

affordable makeup products that she uses all the time.

I have to say over the weekend, I was in Priceline

and I was like, I'm overwhelmed.

And then I went, no, no.

What do you mean you're telling me to look for?

So true.

You can buy all the products from your local chemist

and it was just incredibly pervy and helpful.

Next up will be Holly.

Yeah.

A link to that episode will be in the show notes.

Thank you for listening to Australia's number one

news and pop culture show.

This episode was produced by Emily and Gazillas,

the assistant producer is Tali Blackman

with audio production by Leah Porges.

We'll see you tomorrow.

Bye.

Bye.

Shout out to any Mamma Mia subscribers listening.

If you love the show and want to support us as well,

subscribing to Mamma Mia is the very best way to do so.

There is a link in the episode description.

Machine-generated transcript that may contain inaccuracies.