Between Two Beers Podcast: Sir Wayne Smith on All Blacks Career & Culture, Black Ferns, Future of Rugby

On this episode of Between Two Beers we talk to Sir Wayne Smith.

Wayne is one of the most respected and accomplished figures in New Zealand rugby history, an

absolute legend of the game.

He was a 17 cap All Black who went on to win three World Cups, two as All Blacks assistant

coach and one with the Black Ferns.

He's also been the All Blacks coach, won four Super Rugby titles as a coach, two of the

Crusaders, two of the Chiefs and currently works as the performance coach to both the

All Blacks and Black Ferns.

In this episode we talk about the differences of coaching men and women, what rule changes

he'd like to see in the game, why he was sacked as All Blacks coach and the hardest moments

of his career in 2007, his fairytale ride with the Black Ferns, where his resilience

comes from and much, much more.

There's a reason Wayne is considered one of World Rugby's greatest thinkers and this

was a fascinating insight into how his brain works.

It was a real honour getting to share so much of his time and it's easy to see why his

players are all so connected to him as a person and a coach.

Listen on iHeart or wherever you're podcasts from or watch the video on YouTube and follow

us on Insta and TikTok to see the best video clips from each episode.

This episode was brought to you from the export beer garden studio.

Enjoy!

Wayne Smith, welcome to Between Two Beers.

Thanks man, looking forward to it.

Yeah, we've heard about it.

But apprehensive.

I know, but apprehensive.

Don't be.

Don't be.

This is easy compared to some of the stuff you've had to do in your career, surely.

Yeah, not easy after losses, I'll tell you that.

My lucky it's a win.

This is going to be a win.

Yeah, we're very excited to have you in the Hamilton export beer garden studio today,

bit of a change of scenery for us.

Wayne, you must have had a few good nights here on Hood Street, maybe after a Chief's

Super Rugby final win or something?

Yeah, I don't remember much of it.

But after we won our first title in 2012, yeah, Hood Street was the go.

It's different in the cold light of day, isn't it, from a heady Saturday night in Hamilton?

Yeah, like I'm not a big drinker, but I had a few that night.

I remember getting a call about half past six in the morning to say, it's really, we're

at, we're in the Hamilton East, but I'll forget what that's called.

For me, you need to come down.

So, yeah, start again at about half past six, seven o'clock.

It'd be the East Side Tavern, I mean.

No longer there, the East End.

Well, the loaded hog would have been the other one.

Anyway, we are recording this in the middle of the Rugby World Cup.

And while we're not going to talk about the games, because it'll be dated by the time

it goes out, we are interested to hear about how you have been watching the World Cup.

Wayne Smith watching the ABs on TV.

So the 7am kick-offs, are you the kind of guy that wakes up at six and watches all of

the pre-match and all the punditry, or are you a 7am, you just wake up, you just switch

on the TV and you go?

I'm 3.45am.

Really?

Yeah, I generally get up for the early game.

Ah, of course.

Yeah, okay.

We've got that All Blacks bias on.

Sit through that, make a cup of coffee, about 7am, you know, the game is trying to at 8

o'clock now.

Get myself ready.

Yeah, I like watching the previews, you know, and hey, I'm a rugby, I'm a rugby through

and through.

I just love it.

I look forward to this.

Love the fact that the French time zone is pretty good for us, you know, at 8 o'clock

in the morning for the main games.

So yeah, I'm a Trojan.

Sit through all of them.

Do you still get nervous for the team?

Not as nervous as when I'm in the box.

Yeah, clearly I want them to win, you know, I'm All Black through and through, but there's

nothing that can recreate that nervous tension in the box, you know, particularly for those

really big, as big matches, and especially something next to Ted, for example.

You know, you often come out with bruises, so I sit on his left, okay, with bruises

on my right side.

World Cup final on 2-11, I had to get up and go to the back where the water cooler was

with about 15 minutes to go because I just couldn't take any more elbows to the ribs.

We were in, one year we were in Brisbane, and you know, you see those big moss in Brisbane?

Yeah.

You know, about that big.

And it was a really important game, but it was getting pretty close.

Ted was next to me, I think he was getting a bit of a sweat on, and so he opened the

window and this moss came and hit him fair in the face, and he jumped off and the seat

came with him and landed on Steve Hanson's foot.

So Steve got my punch in the ribs.

This is all the stuff you never see, you never see the behind the scenes inside the coach's

box.

And all the while, you know, the game's going on.

So watching on TV, are you a motor, like the All Blacks score a try in a big game?

Are you given a little fist pump or are you getting up off the couch?

I'm getting better at that, in that I'm getting a bit more emotive, because when you're in

the box you can't be emotive, you know, you've got a job, do you look at what you can improve

and messages you've got to give.

Sitting at home, my wife's pretty made up about it.

Me not so much, tend to watch it with quite a bit of faith no matter what position we're

in, you know, I've always got a bit of faith that we're going to come back and win the

game.

I did wonder whether Trish watched it with you in the lounge as well, or whether you'd

lock yourself off in like an office and it's only you in notes.

Yeah, yeah, with an open proof.

Yeah, I tend towards that side, but I do allow her to watch it with me, but I don't

normally like other people.

Is that right?

I've been around, yeah, I'm not sort of going to go around and watch with a whole group

of people.

When I go to games, I don't like going up to a box or anything like that, to have a

few beers or rather sit in the stand by myself and watch the game with a bit of nervous tension

but not too bad.

You've got to switch over to the ACC commentary and see what James McConie and Mike Lanes

take us on the go.

Well, I do at Cricket, but I've only got the app with Sky, I don't know if the ACC commentary

is on for the Rugby, on the Cricket you've got two choices, on the app you can watch

normal one or the ACC one.

I wasn't aware that was on.

They'll take great pride in knowing that you shouldn't be on the Cricket.

We'll cut though, we'll cut rights, we'll cut rights only on iHeartRadio and Radio Hodoraki.

There you go.

I've got a niche nerd question.

Are you the kind of guy that texts fozzy good luck before a game or any of the players

that you still have relationships with?

The odd time, I'm more likely to text them a well done afterwards.

Yeah.

They get plenty of messages for a...

Well that was going to be my follow up is that when you were in that same position and

your phone's getting inundated, are you the kind of guy that takes time to reply to everyone

as well?

Yeah, I reply to everyone.

It's amazing.

And sometimes during the Women's World Cup for example, sometimes I'd have 150 text

matches.

Test matches.

I had those as well, text.

So thanks a wee bit of time, but you know, they'll cut and paste pretty good.

I wondered that whether it was a personal or sometimes you did.

Yeah, normally personal, but if you got 150 you know, it's really dope, dope, dope.

Never just the thumbs up.

That's such a disrespectful reply.

Yeah.

Always try and give a unique response.

Yeah, I love it.

So earlier this year we had David Gelbrace on the show and the chat with him had a really

deep impact and connection with our audience.

We wanted to talk about him at the top.

He's a guy who looks at life differently and is someone who you've worked with very

closely over the years.

What in your opinion makes DG so special?

Yeah, I've been really fortunate with people who have helped make my career, Gilbert and

Ike, a massive one obviously in the same field as DG.

DG is unique.

No doubt about that.

I love the smile on his face as soon as he thinks about that.

Yeah, I'd known him sort of a wee bit, I'd had a few sort of presentations with him previously

to join in the Chiefs, but he joined the Chiefs at the same time as I did in 2012 with Dave

Rennie and I'll never forget his first presentation.

So he got up and he was talking to the boys and he pointed out that his office was over

there and he had Hogg on the front of the office, HOG, and he said, if you truly want

to get better and you're serious about it, come to my office over there.

Have it's a greatness, Hogg, and we'll have some conversations.

And he said, but if you just want a bigger dick, he had a bucket there with a bit of

rope on it and full of stones and he said, so if you just want a bigger dick coming there

and I'll tie this to it for 10 minutes, then I'm wondering, what the hell is this?

Is it stun silence in the room with that?

Or is it a couple of giggles or is it just confused looks around going on?

I was an eruption of laughter at that point, but he'd like he would give a presentation

and then you'd be walking out and he'd spot like a banana skin or a bottle of water on

the ground and so you want someone else to pick that up?

You want someone else to fix your mistakes on the field?

Is that what you're going to do?

You're going to rely on other people to clean up after you?

And so very, could be confrontational, but it's not because it's DG and he's got that

way with him and the boys know he loves him and he gets total buy-in, but yeah, he's one

of life's characters.

He's a beautiful man.

I've got a lot of time for him.

I feel really privileged that he's a mate, you know, we can go out and play golf together

and we'll have a lot of fun.

I love his term quintessential weirdo that he uses and he sort of loves and embraces.

So we went to David.

And if you haven't, get on that episode.

Go after this one, go after that one.

When he's talking about me or...

We're both very weird.

So we went to David to ask what his observations were of you because you worked so closely

with him over the years and David said Rugby was always second, people were always first

and it was heart deep and authentic for Smithy.

He said the most profound memories of Smithy is that he's always first into a team meeting,

sitting with his book open at the front of the room.

He has an amazing and insatiable appetite for learning.

He also wanted us to all learn together and started an innovation meeting on Thursdays

at lunchtime where everyone in the organisation was invited and as important as each other,

no ideas were silly ideas.

I guess the question at the end of that is, were these processes and ideas, did they

evolve over time?

We're probably all a reflection of people we meet, you know, and I'd rather reassess

for meeting people from diverse fields, you know, not just Rugby, but people from different

sports, different working environments.

I read a lot of books and then I was lucky enough to have the working relationships with

people like DG, you know, and so and it helps change your perception over time or the solutions

that you'd find to problems often change because of, you know, the people you've met

and he's been a massive, um, lately, since 2012, he's been a massive influence on my

career.

We'll be right back after this short break.

So we went to your son Nick to ask, you know, what his analysis was of Wayne and then what

his reaction was, oh, it's great, don't worry about it, don't worry about it, don't worry

about it, we got a response and we're very happy with it and I'm going to read you what

he said.

He said, the thing that I think people don't get about Wayne is his insane passion and

dedication to Rugby.

I've never seen anything like it and I think it explains his success to an extent.

A story I like to tell is this one Saturday I came down to visit when I was in Auckland

and he was in Cambridge.

We started the day by watching our friend's son play in his under 15 game, actually funnily

enough it was Josh Lord, and then we decided to stay on and watch Hamilton Boys versus

Rotorua Boys.

We then went and watched a young prospect who by chance was Sean Stevenson play for

his club.

We made it home for the first Super Rugby game at 5.30 and then watched the next two.

I decided it was time to call the tonight but Wayne stayed up to watch two European games.

The thing is, in every game he is thinking about what he calls the trends of rugby.

He's an incredible appetite to digest rugby and I find he's able to be ahead of the curve

simply because he digests more rugby than anyone else.

And the question I had at the end of that is, your appetite and passion for rugby, has

it stayed the same through the course of your life?

Well it's almost been explained, like in that situation you recall names, dates, fields,

you're an encyclopedia, surely it must have stayed the course of time.

I can't remember someone I met yesterday but I can remember scores and who I coached

and events from rugby and I grew up with that passion.

As I said, Pataru was, I played all my junior rugby there, my senior rugby started there

as a passionate rugby player, you know like Pataru was a powerhouse, a high school first

of team, they were a powerhouse, we were, I think matter of matter we were rated one

in the country and George Simkin was coaching them in 74.

We drew with them for the Moscow and the Trickle, we had to play at Moronsville at

Campbell Park because the crowds were too big, you know and I remember someone telling

me that George was so nervous he was standing behind the stand having a smoke towards the

end of the game.

I got to school on the Monday morning having drawn Age All and I got knocked out at the

end of the game.

So I woke up in the changing room with my dad and my uncle there, I got to school on

the Monday morning now and they'd speak to me.

I then found out that at Age All with like a minute left on the clock I'd made a break

from the 22 so I'd done it and gone and I ran all the way down the field, had a winger

outside when I just had dummied the fullback and got the old stiff arm so I ended up waking

up in the changing room and no one's speaking to me at school because I'd lost us the Trickle

and the Moscow Cup.

But that's how Heartland Rugby was, the small schools were strong, vibrant, it was the only

sport I really played.

I did athletics and I played tennis and I loved all that and I played golf but really

the sport that mattered to me was rugby and I was driven to, as I say, to go as far as

I could and knew I didn't have to be great to do it, I knew I could play a role in great

teams.

I've got it on reasonable authority, you turned out for Cash Me Tech every now and

again in senior football though?

I did, I worked with a guy, Terry Sullivan, who played for them and so towards the end

of my career I'd play for Belfast and if it was a 12 o'clock game I'd sneak in a football

for Cash Me.

Where'd you play?

Anywhere near the ball, I didn't know anyone with positions, I just wanted to be near the

ball and have a crack at it.

Yeah, in a classic bit of a case you would have been an attacker, isn't that?

Hang on a minute, wasn't he in the Ranfieldy Shield team in like 82, 83?

I think you guys have done some research.

Yeah, a point of difference.

But back to what Nick was saying, so it's like, he talks about how much, I'm not sure

how long ago this story was.

Josh Lord under 15s, it was a while ago, but in the last podcast that you did, it kind

of went viral because you commented that you switched off a super rugby game at half

time to watch some sort of animal documentary and so be careful what you're saying now.

Was that a one?

Like are you still frustrated by the game?

Do you still love it the same way that you did then?

It's coming up to Shark Week actually, which is always a very big week in the animal kingdom.

Yeah, look, I love the game.

There was one game out of probably a hundred that I switched off, it was frustrating to

me.

But I think a lot of the world's getting frustrated.

You talk to people who watched the, you know, Alphide all the other night, one of the great

sports events of the year, wasn't it, like a phenomenal?

And it's just got a bit more flow.

I think what's made us as a country really a head of the ball for 120 years is we've

always been able to reinvent ourselves quicker than anyone else.

Anytime there's been a law change, we've been able to adapt it quickly and then dominate

the world.

You know, you think that Dave Gallagher on the boat going over in 1905, he read the

law book and saw that there was a loophole there, that you could have a player play in

the backs or in the forwards and they could change when they wanted to do that.

He became a wing forward and they just obliterated every team in Europe having reinvented themselves.

But eventually they got scouted by Wales who decided they'd play this tactic back at the

Orblacks, the originals, and beat the Orblacks in that last game.

And so since then, I think we've been really good at looking into the future and making

changes before they happen.

I think that's really important and we need to continue to do that because that's in our

DNA.

You know, if you're sailing in the America's Cup, you're looking at the horizon, trying

to pick up the wind changes, and then you're trying to have a strategy before you hit that

wind.

I think we've got to do the same.

And if you look at the game currently, there's a lot of frustration around the number of

penalties, the number of yellow cards, the number of rucks, just going straight in the

ruck, there's another ruck, they'll always pick up a penalty because there's a penalty

just for every ruck.

If you want to see it, then you play maybe four, five, six, seven phases of advantage,

then you come back, then it kept a touch, then there's a drive, and so on.

And I think it's frustrating, a lot of people, not just people like me.

And if you are in the crow's nest, it can't carry on like this, so they're going to have

to make some changes.

And as an example, I think one of the changes might be that they'll allow the tackle height

again.

Maybe they'll lower it to, I don't know, belly button height.

So the intended consequence of that would be to save, to stop injury, or dangerous injury,

so it will stop head clashes, they'll need some good coaching movement, a good technique

for the tackle, you know, chin up, eyes open, head to the side, strong grip, drive through,

all those sorts of things, but it will make the game safer.

But the unintended consequence will be the ability to offload.

And so we're going to have to work on support players understanding probably the offload

is going to come now.

That'll lead to less rucks, which will lead to less penalties and less injuries.

And the games will become either exhilaratingly good as the All Blacks were against Italy,

or exhilaratingly bad like Italy were against the All Blacks, but it'll be exhilarating just

the same.

And so I think that's only one example, but I think the game will evolve again, and we've

got to be at the forefront of it.

And I'd like to see a coaching movement now that teaches the skills to be able to play

that sort of game when it's legislated.

That's really interesting comment about New Zealand always being at the forefront of sort

of innovation and collaboration, because I feel like you have been at the heart of that

across the last, I don't know, 20, 30 years, whatever it's been.

And it leads nicely into Nick's second point.

He said, one of Wayne's greatest qualities is that he's never afraid to share ideas

and is not intimidated by rivals.

He doesn't feel like he has to protect his ideas from them.

He learns a lot from sharing ideas and having robust discussions.

I really like this, as I think it is a much more positive way to approach your craft.

I'm an academic and I adopt a similar attitude when it comes to my ideas.

Typically academia can be like coaching, in that people are scared to share insights

out of fear they might be stolen.

Sure, on occasion I've had ideas stolen, but in the long run my ideas have improved through

the interaction.

And from hearing other interviews, I'm wondering, does that go back to what you learned from

Graham Henry in the Blues in 97, where you were kind of surprised at how open he was

and that sort of influenced your coaching?

Yeah, I've always been curious about other sports, other successful people, books.

I love Stephen Covey's book on the Seven Habits.

I love John Wooden, who got coach of the Millennium.

In the States, actually, I got a chance to have a cup of tea with John Wooden in 2007.

And I was really intrigued by his statements that it's not how you run, it's not how you,

it's not winning the race that counts, it's how you run it.

And so I was around at his place, felt really privileged having a chat to him, handed him

a cup.

Actually, there's a few of us from New Zealand Rugby, we took a framed All Black jersey.

And I was about to explain the All Blacks term, he said, I know who the All Blacks are,

I know I worked for New Zealand Government in 1957 or 1959 or something, teaching basketball

around the schools.

But he couldn't find, his walls were just full of photos and gifts from people.

And so he couldn't find any where to put it, so he stuck it down on the ground.

It was right underneath Mother Teresa's signed photograph, that's beautiful.

And I asked him about this, it's not about winning the race, it's how you run it.

So I asked him what he, you know, won 10 championship finals with UCLA.

And I asked him, at that last time out, what did you say to the team?

And I expect that, you know, you'd have a whiteboard and, you know, see those movies

and the X's and O's and they're going, you're going to fake there and you're going to fake

a passing and you're going to score.

And he said to me, I said exactly the same thing in each of those 10 finals in that last

time out, I asked, what was it?

He said, when the final whistle goes, don't make fools of yourselves, how good is that?

You know, so those are the sorts of people that influenced me the most.

And then Graham Henry, 97, my first year with Crusader's big conference at HQ in Wellington.

Graham Henry's, I guess, is the keynote speaker because he's won the Super Rugby title in 96.

So I'm sitting there next to Frank Oliver and Ted's telling us all about how the blues

played, every detail, you know, scrum here that we get slightly that right side up,

nine, eight meter passes to number nine, he's flat, we do this, this, this, this, I'm

writing everything down and so is Frank Oliver thinking, this is marvellous.

And then they went again in 97 and so he, he gives another chat for the next year and

I realised that what he was doing, he'd shared ideas to where they played in 96, but he was

going to, to that point and we were all going to that point.

And so it was a concept of share what you've already done and it forces you to develop

your own game and to, and to keep learning and keep getting better and having new ideas

coming in.

And do you adopt that same method?

Do you share up to where you don't share the latest things you're working on just to

kind of where you...

Yeah, I'm always conscious of that.

When I was 98, when we won with Crusaders, I gave the, I had to give the speech for

the 99 season and I looked down the crowd and there was Frank Oliver writing all my

notes down.

Yeah, I tend to use that concept, I'm happy to share, depends on your sharing with like

when you're in the All Blacks and you're, and you're travelling around the Super Rugby

franchises, you share everything because you want, they're at the cutting edge of the

game with Super Rugby coaches, you know, it's early in the year, you've, All Blacks

have got our season coming up, so you want to learn from them and the best way to learn

is to share, get all the ideas back and then you create a locker, an AMWI pyramid selling

coaching movement where, you know, you're talking to the Super Coaches, you're trying

to get them to work with the NPC Coaches, then you want the NPC Coaches to work with

the club coaches, you know, and that's a coaching movement and I think we're going to be really

aware that that's a big advantage for us in this country and we've got to keep it going.

Was that part of the rationale behind like books like Legacy coming out which could sort

of opened the world to the All Blacks environment and the Netflix doco, the All or Nothing with

the All Blacks as well as kind of that shining a light on what you might not necessarily see

but you guys were already working towards kind of the next level of things?

Normally, yeah, I'd say with Legacy, none of us really knew that that book was coming out,

so there's a guy here, wasn't there?

Yeah, James.

So he had been here with one of the top photographers in the world over the full season, writing

the narrative for a book called Mana and following the season, I was getting a few calls from

James and I think Gilbert was the same and maybe Ted, getting a few calls to talk about

that and I just assumed it was going to Mana and then I got a call from New Zealand Rugby

Union saying this book had come out and questioning why I was part of it and as I was all news

to me, yeah, we did share a lot of inside information in that book but you know what,

it really forced us to make changes or not to make changes so much but to grow what we were doing

and complacency is your enemy and with the All Blacks, I don't know what our winning

record's been like over the 120 years but it'll be close to 80% and so you have to absorb a loss

and again, you don't like it but you've got to tolerate it and you've got to learn from it

but the biggest issue I think when you're catching your All Blacks is to not let winning

be your enemy, you know, complacency is a worst thing you may have in a team and

you know, you've got to get rid of that illusion that everything's going well and

you're all on target, you know, you need Pat Riley, great NBA coach, he used to turn

something like useful worry or something like that positive worry so that you're going to game

with edge, not quite sure knowing you've got to put everything into it to win the game and to

perform and I think that's something that the All Blacks do do pretty well, you watch them

even the last couple of years when there's been a bit of up and down when it's really counted

like the game in Jo Berg, the All Blacks are fronted and they're fronted for their coach

and they fronted it for the jersey, you know, and it was a brilliant performance

so those are some of the, I think some of the challenges that you have as a coach

and the challenges of sharing. Yeah, just on sharing. It's going to be a bit careful at times.

Yeah and just on that note, so you've obviously been privy to some amazing people and have audiences

with amazing people, do you get inundated with requests from people on their way up as

well to have some of your time and to gain some of your knowledge? Yeah, I do a lot of mentoring,

I do quite a few of these things as well and I'm happy to share it. Most of the stuff I share now

is in the past, like I've got a book coming out, I've got a launch tomorrow at my Belfast club

and I share a lot on that because I wanted to have some coaching information in there

but it's retrospective, like the game's growing, it's changing, I've got some stuff in there about

the women and how we adapted to play that game that we played. Enzo, are aware of this?

Yep, don't, don't another legacy situation here. This is my book this time.

Yeah, you know, I also do a chapter on the chiefs. Chiefs are really special

and unique and we used settlement by Tainui, we used the language to change the game,

to change the way, the imagery that we had around the game, the words we used weren't rugby terms,

they were to do with our legacy here, our history, we travelled the region, we do all

that sort of stuff and I tell that story but that was back in 2012, you know, and it's,

it'll be interesting but it's not really applicable today. So I'm pretty comfortable with that.

You share today because tomorrow other people are going to have different ideas.

We'll be right back after this short break.

We've spoken a lot about rugby but like DG said, people first and if you're open to it,

keen to talk about your other son, Joshua, who's in his 30s now and has lived and does live with

cerebral palsy. I'm really interested in how that ride, that journey has changed you as a man and as

a day. Actually he's with us at the moment so he's coming down to the book launch, he's just

finished his, he's just handed in his masters in American history, focusing on President Lincoln,

he's, yeah he's living in Waihi Beach now just down the road from us, happy as, loves the beach life

but it hasn't been easy for him, particularly being a twin, he's Nick's twin and sometimes

as a little kid he'd ask why he wasn't named Nick, you know, so that, so he could be like Nick

and Nick could have been Josh. So it hasn't been easy for him but he's done incredibly well

and it drove me to get involved with other cerebral palsy kids and so through that

I became patron of conductive education who deal primarily with cerebral palsy

sufferers but anyone with disabilities they'll take into that unit, they've got units at schools

or in the country, I started the one in Eddington, Eddington Primary and so over the years I've been

a big part of that, I'm now a life member, some of the girls that I coached last year

are now on the board of conductive education through them, the Bremner sisters and Kendra

Coxedge are now on the board through some visits that we did, this is what they're like, outstanding.

Yeah so it probably changed our lives as much as Josh is, you know, bringing them up.

Well I wanted to ask that because you say it's not been easy for Josh, how was it for you?

Yeah, actually next week he's got to go, he gets a disability benefit while he's studying,

he's got to go in and prove that he's still got cerebral palsy.

Wow, I think some people don't realise it's a condition, really right.

Yeah things like, when he first started university he would have been 24-25,

had been working for me at Northampton as an analyst, a rugby analyst, very sharp on the game,

so's Nick and where they're both growing up with the game, they've been great scouts for me and the

teams that I've been with over the years. So he was working as an analyst for me, we came back,

he was thinking about university but he didn't have the confidence to go. He said to me one day,

no I don't think I'll go because I think I'm handicapped, and I said why is that? Well he said

with my cerebral palsy it's a disability, I don't think I'll be able to go. And I said well

if you were mentally impaired, like you think you are, you wouldn't know that you're mentally impaired,

so I think you should go to university, I think you've got the ability to do that. So the first

year I had, we had a lot of people helping him, Gilbert Anoka was pushing him and had a guy in

Mark Sayers from Australia who was one of our coaches with Orblix and with Crusaders actually

and a skills type coach, he's a professor, he was pushing Josh to go, so eventually we got him

along to the cultural year, so he didn't have to do any exams or essays just to see if he could

understand it, and he could. He was about 24-25 I suppose at the time, then he decided to do a

full year, walked out of his first exam without writing anything down, traumatised, but he passed

the course because his essays were so good and then he just grew confidence and then he became an

A student, now he's finished a Masters and that mark will come to us in the next few weeks and if

it's good enough he'll do a doctorate like his brother, but it has been easy, it's actually been

good for my coaching because he was very much a pessimist in terms of, no I don't think I can do

this, so I read a book by Saligman who did 40 years of study at Penn State University on a

state called helplessness and looking at pessimists as opposed to optimists and following them all

through their life a wee bit like that, the needing study, improved that A you could learn

optimism and B the learned optimists and the optimists were more successful generally in life than

pessimists, so I took some of these techniques and I worked on them with Josh about disputing that he

couldn't do something, you know, if you've got a poor mark for an essay or an assignment,

it would be because he had read the question roll or he had a different idea to the lecturer about

the subject, but didn't mean he couldn't do it, he's done it before and he can do it again,

so that's sort of mindset and something I've used in my coaching for years now is to teach,

learn optimism. That must have come in handy, in 2018 you came out with a cancer diagnosis,

optimism and learned optimism around that and how things are going to work out must have been

important as well. Yep, yep, I'm like everyone, I threw a plane in a coaching career, I had to

know that I could do what I was trying to do and that I was good at it and when I had failures

you just got to sit yourself down and say well I've done it before, every dog has his day,

my day's going to be next week and just get back into it where Steve Hansen would say have a lie

down son and get up when you've got a better idea, you know, that's how we operate and so

yeah it's been really useful technique for me and for others that have taken it on board when

I've been teaching it. Coaches and I, when I was at Kobe, we've created a program called Flourish

to try and create a bit more grit and resilience in the players, you know, it came about through

some of the mental health issues that are arising today and people like Saladman and

Kavi played a big part in that for me for coming up with that program so I used a lot of their ideas

and it's not something that we present to a team, it's something you just do,

like gratitude things, how to gain the community and help kids get to school or

go and talk to kids about bullying and family violence, how to stand up for your mates and

the girls are particularly, the Black Ferns are particularly connected to community

causes and we did a lot of stuff prior to and during the World Cup and you know we took food

parcels around, we went to and I have a dream after-school program and tikipoga,

Whangarei, all sorts of things and I think that builds gratitude in you which then

makes you more resilient to things, gives you positive emotions which are important obviously.

Yeah so I think it's a, again if you're looking into the future I think it's going to be

something that every high-performing coach is going to have to put in place, something like that.

Across all your years have you noticed in general a decline maybe in athletes coming through in some

of those areas of resilience? It's more overt, I think yeah it's more obvious, you're more likely

to have a conversation with someone than you would but it was back in my day, back in my day it would

have been considered, you keep it inside, doesn't mean it wasn't there but you don't show it to anyone

whereas today I don't think it's that, it's not like that, I don't think it's certainly not like

that in the women's game, they're happy to get it out, to have a cry and have a hug and I think

that's really, really healthy you know to help them get through some tough times. When I started

with the Black Ferns I found the selection meetings quite difficult because with the boys it's,

you know my experience has basically been look you're not playing this week, this is why you have

a good couple of clips, yeah all good, smoothie off they'd go but you don't know really you know

what they're thinking or how they're feeling inside, not often anyway. With the women you know

so you'd go around the hubs, I'd always have another coach with me, we'd go around the hubs

and the other coaches helped in the areas as well like down in Canterbury and Wellington

if I couldn't get there and you'd have a decent meeting with them and it'd be half an hour to

40 minutes, you'd go through a few clips, they'd have some clips of what they're doing to get better,

what they're good at, what they're doing to get better, then often be tears,

sometimes I'd get a call a couple of days later to say could I go back, normally I couldn't go

back but I'd open up my zoom for like a couple of hours, two and a half hours probably, give

a whole lot of 10 minutes, send out on WhatsApp 10 minute periods for them to come on and I'd

just let them vent, I'd just sit there like this and yep they understand, yep totally understand

that and then at the end they'd go, oh this bloke great smoothie and all they go is another one

come on, yeah and it is over like a week and at first I was a bit traumatised myself

but yeah because what do you do, what do you do with that?

Yeah you just got to handle it I suppose, I'm pretty resilient but yeah I felt you know sometimes

I'd say can you come back smoothie and I got a trish, I'm not buddy going back there like

you know I've got to have my own recovery and the zoom part was really good and by the end of the

World Cup I was pretty certain inside that it was the way to go, like that's what we need to do,

we need to put more time into caring for them during that period because missing out is a big

thing and so I think the way we did it may be a blueprint for the future.

Is there still room though for some old school values, like how do you blend the two worlds?

I don't really know what I mean by old school values like but just yeah.

Yeah generally I think the people I coach generally come through with pretty good values you know to

reach the level that you're coaching at whether it's Black Ferns or Super Rugby or All Blacks,

they generally all have great family support no matter what their background has been,

they'll always have whānau around them to support them, most of them have good partners,

with the women you know they will work up until now that the game's been monetised a bit more

now and there's more professionalism but generally though they've all done degrees, work you know

Ruihe Demont's admitted to the bar, there's a lawyer, so's Grace Steinmetz, you got teachers like

the Bremner Girls, you know and for them it's a joy to play a test match, it's exciting,

they've had to work hard to get there, they've got supportive family, supportive partners,

very few nerves more going out there with a smile on their face and into it you know

so probably a wee bit like we were back in the 60s, 70s, 80s you know before the game

went professional, you've made it, it's been hard getting there and you're gonna make the most of it

yeah and so there is a difference between the men's and the women's game

but you know it's the women's game's developing and eventually there'll be professional athletes

come through like the men I suppose, the challenge will be with all professional

supporters is to retain the love of the game you know and to remember that it is a game

and it's supposed to be fun and you've got to build a lot of fun into your week I reckon

we're going to talk more about the Black Ferns a little bit later but you mentioned about how

resilient you are and that is built from the adversity that you've been through, people are

probably aware of the successes you've had, Super Rugby Championships, the World Cups you've won

but the adversity there like getting sacked is all Blacks coach, when you think back on that now

are you the kind of guy that thinks that you learn more from your failures than your successes

like how do you reflect on what happened there? Yeah the challenge is to learn from both

I think I'm the only all Black coach to get sacked, is that right? Did he get sacked? Yep

I don't sacked twice and you can read about that in my book because no one knows about the second

time, good tease really good tease really good tease and then probably should have got sacked

the third time in 2007 we were pretty close to getting sacked yeah like 2001 was interesting

because we had lost the previous year in 2000 we had all the trophies won you know at about six

minutes in injury time at the stadium in Wellington and it came over from the referee that next time

out the game's over and the players clearly heard it because we nearly scored in the corner

we were up by two points we'd beaten them in Sydney we'd beaten the box trophies are down there

Tony Gill and I start walking down the steps to pick them up

Larkham there's a long 22 dropout Tana lets it run and touch because next time out it's over

and we've got to play the line out and so it took everyone by surprise and that's history now but

we lost the line out Dowdy tried to win the ball back at the ruck came in from the side

Warraby kicker was off the field Stirling-Mortlock so Eel stood up it wasn't a hard kick but it

wasn't an easy one and he nailed it by the way I'd love to run your commentary with the actual

incident and see how accurate it was because I feel like it's bit play by play accurate there

and so we're halfway down the stairs and all of a sudden he's having a kick for gold and we

lose by a point following year very similar last game against the Wallabies in Australia I think

we're up by maybe four points going into the last minute we get a penalty Mertz kicks for

touched down under their 22 in those days of course the referees ruled the time so you're

never quite sure whether it's full time or not well this one went on we lost that line out

down there so we're in attack down the 22 release that line out might have been trying to compete

with Larkham yeah with the authority on Warraby what an idiot and then the game just kept going

and going and going and I'm thinking oh this is like deja vu or yeah you'd better say like deja

vu all over again I just keep going and going and there's a couple more quick line outs and

Aussie are just tacking and tacking and tacking and finally Kefi scores right under the sticks

and they convert it to win and it was devastating you know and so I come back come back to um

Christchurch I get a call from Anton Oliver who's coach about a week later how you going I say

why haven't been out of the house I was building a real do you know what a real is it's like a

little canal there's building one in the backyard yeah Trisha wasn't very happy with why do you

know what else to do because I wanted something to do so I was digging holes and I was brick and

brick in it and and Anton said well I haven't been out either I haven't even been out to the supermarket

so Hopner's car and he came up and um Norm Maxwell and a couple of others came around

and we sort of just sit in there with a thousand island a thousand mile stair I said this is

ridiculous but we should we go and have a beer down at the local so we got into the Teppanui Tevin

went there because it's mainly a rugby league um pub and I thought

they won't they won't know who we are so we're going there well his bloke comes straight up to the

bar buys us a beer turns to Anton you said hey because Anton had thrown the ball into the light

out indication I got it all right I don't know that mate and he said hey Anton um I heard you

threw yourself under a bus but you missed at the start of the area it was you know it got us back

life yeah because you can you know you can feel like everything's against you I then had a

so 11 days after that result I'd go to Wellington for a review and I'd had a review from the players

and staff and NZR and whatnot and my contract could have continued so I still had an existing

contract just for a couple of months could have continued and I could have gone on to the next

year but um I was questioning myself wasn't sure I had the support of the union for a start or the

people um and I wanted to be certain that everyone knew he was taking responsibility just like the

players have to so the interview panel was made up of some of the great men of New Zealand rugby

history you know I'm talking about Brian the whore DJ Graham those sorts of people Lane Penn was there

Andy Dalton I think Andy Dalton was there a great man anyway and but when I look back I think

they were all of the same they're all the same type of men um similar views

and I don't think they could understand why I was questioning myself I was all black coach

firstly why can't you beat Aussie and and why why are you questioning yourself and so um

um I decided to reapply for the job rather than have it rolled over and I wanted to know that

I could go through an interview and get the job again and that would have given me confidence

that I had support and I could have gone ahead but it soon became obvious I didn't have support

yeah so I went to the I went to the interview missed out on the job

I was actually Trish and I were with really great friends

Mark and Janet Vincent up in the mount I wanted to get away we're up at the mount

um we were heading to a winery actually in the phone window it was Dave Rutherford the

Chief Executive so I pulled pulled the car over and um answered the phone and he told me that I'd

missed missed the job um so I just sort of sat there I had my great mates in the car and Trish

so he thought I'll keep going to the winery we didn't eat much for lunch we had a fair fair little

wine um and then that went through the process of naming the next coach and so on so it was a

pretty difficult time um but I was the architect of that you know and um I'm I'm still aware of that

there is a story following that in the book that took me somewhat by surprise an action by the union

following that but you'll have to read that he's teasing it well he's teasing this book well

and it shocked me a bit um but you know I look back and it gave me an opportunity to

to go overseas and get some experience became head coach of Northampton um

I loved it there absolutely loved it had had a great team great um just uh able to work in a

really professional environment um when so just before we move on to Northampton

I've heard you say that if you had internalized those thoughts instead of speaking them you still

would have been the all blacks coach do so do you look back with regret of the way that you

handle not now I probably did at the time I was singing damn what I do that yeah um

but I wanted the players to understand that I took responsibility as well as them

you know and the outcome for them if if they haven't played well is to get dropped

you know and um I actually I should took um or sent a book to quite a few of the leaders in that

team it was Lord Jones's book the book of fame if you haven't read it if you're rugby fan you haven't

read that the book of fame you should do I was going to ask about the end of the episode for

some book recommendations so it's about 19 it's a novel on the 1905 all blacks and um I wanted

the players to read it and just put a wee note in um that I was responsible like like they were and

basically the consequence was this that I was got um but you know we were early in the professional

era um there were two of us so it was myself and Tony Gilbert that was us

had uh the Colonel Andrew Martin came on board um he's a workaholic and so he was a great help

and I had a a girl called a woman called Callie Hyde as my PA who was outstanding

and she would often have a phone in that and type it in that hand and talking to a customer coming

into the office that we shared um but that was us and Gilbert Anoka um joined and was a huge support

for Tony and I that it's the bones of what you'd have today like yeah and and having to handle

I was overwhelming for me coming from Crusaders um without with an office behind you um

being sort of by myself in Christchurch was difficult you've got you know media you've got

um commercial obligations your strategic planning yeah I was doing everything and

it was a tough tough job so going to um so leaving in 2001 was was yeah I was regretful but

it gave me an opportunity to work in a professional a really professional

violent with other coaches um so I headed that campaign I was I was on the board I went to

board meeting so had some influence there um had great players coming through made a couple of finals

at Twickenham we lost both of them I think that was good for me in terms of learning resilience

again you yeah standing out in the middle in front of 85 000 our the owner of our club had

put on 120 buses for people to come down to Twickenham and you're picking up silver medal

that's a real dose of reality to you you know how does that adversity of 2001 compare with 2007

because that is the other what I imagine low moment where you know all blacks getting up

to the quarter final you're obviously you know a big role in that team and I hear you say that

you learned who your real friends were at that time yeah yeah no doubt about that um yes on 2004

at Northampton I got a call from Graham Henry who's applying for the all-black job and he

wasn't enough I would come back to work with him if he got the job and initially my answer was no

so Trish definitely didn't want to come back my boys they held a bit of a grudge the boys and Trish

they didn't want anything to do with New Zealand Rugby so I'm on the phone and they're running up

the stairs getting no dead so I said um Ted look I'm not sure about ruining back in a week I had a

lot I wanted to meet Northampton people want to talk to Trish and the boys so ring me back

on the Saturday actually a week later and I said no I'm not I'm not going to come back

but then other people started ringing I remember having a conversation with Gilbert

and okay um Steve Hanson who was going to go who decided he would go back with Graham

and I sort of knew deep down inside that I needed to go just for myself I had to prove to myself

that I had wanted to to go back in that environment improve myself and I didn't want to be thought of

as a failure like I was I wanted to I want to show you that I had that resilience and so leading

into 2007 yep that was a tough that was a tough tough time as you can imagine probably the worst

day in my life other than deaths in the family would be landing in Tokyo coming back after the

quarterfinal and seeing all the tour groups heading over watchers playing the semifinal

now that was yeah that was for someone like me that was really tough get home and

yeah difficult time because Rob Rob's good mate of mine Robbie Dean's been my manager in the in

the Crusaders took over Crusaders and for him to miss out on the job in 2007 was seen as unfair

in Canterbury and like his Canterbury son so yeah it was difficult it was difficult living there

I found that my bad because I like um I sense that sort of stuff you know and I I want I want

people to talk to me and to connect but there's a lot of people looking the other way you know I

spoke at I had to speak at a couple of clubs we were we weren't ordered to go in the clubs

but we felt we should go and talk and that was difficult specifically about the Robbie

wheel cart well it always came to that I spoke at one club and um Shidbolt spoke before me

I don't know if you've ever heard him speak Tim Shidbolt but he's the wittiest funniest

most accomplished speaker I've ever seen he spoke before me and had the had the club in an

uproar you know of laughter and then I got to speak you know so they were pretty difficult times

um and we pined to the Papua Nui Tavern and that rugby league uh spot or we had a few in there

no we had a we had a few in there it calmed your nerves a wee bit and um brought you back into

community you know you can't you can't hide away you've got to be out there but you know I've

made and I haven't had the fact that they were pretty difficult years 2007 through to 2011 um

you know from 2004 to 2011 we won 89 tests out of 103 but we were still ratchet because we didn't

win a wheel cut and it wasn't till I'd never felt that we we got um people on site until

we thrashed France 87 in that final you know and I remember going to the press conference all of a

sudden the mirror one changed yeah you know from being no we'd won we won Grand Slamms in 2005 2008

2010 we never lost a game on a European tour other than the World Cup quarterfinal

but European tour we'd never lost a game we'd never lost a Blaise Logue and we'd won most of the

Tri Nations yet we were hopeless because we won a world cup and it changed in an instant

at the end of that game and I remember walking back into the change room at Eden Park

um from having a positive press conference which was unusual for us walking back into the

changing room and there was John Key drinking out of the cup you know I thought how the world's

changed yeah there's a lot in that 2011 I'm keen to dig around in resilience has been a word and a

theme we've talked about a lot you had front row seats to watching what Richie McCord did

at that tournament moon boot on during the week got himself up and played but was that that must

have been just incredible to witness the the strength of the man yeah um there could not have

been a more difficult set of scenarios for us in that tournament I reckon um so there's a Richie

thing clearly now that's superhuman isn't it I don't know anyone else who could have done that

because he was in pain you know it wasn't wasn't just to protect his foot he was in pain as well

and to get that thing off train Thursday um play Saturday back in the moon boot Sunday

and still play like he did I think is just phenomenal um and then of course we had

the DC um injury before the Canada game I'll never forget that because I was I'd taken over

as kicking coach because Mick Byrne was with um Japan and so after the final training um

DC decided he wanted a few kicks and he shanked he shanked the first one so I'm behind the post

and he shanked I've never seen him shank a kick in his life and then he shanked the second one

well it was a bit stranger than the third one bang he went down with that ripped growing at the start

I wanted for his having me on I saw look to them then I saw Conrad Smith go over and look down and

go oh like that and um yeah it was like that just that feeling at the time was devastating

through going to the changing rooms and Ted picked everyone up he stood up in front of the

group and he said boys we're gonna win the world cup nothing's gonna change but we all know

how big a part of it Daniel is but he's gonna stay a part of it we're gonna win the world cup

and it just created a real positive us against their attitude and then there are other things

took place you know the um that that happens publicly when you're talking to the team privately

as the coaching group getting together and going fucking hell what are we what do we come

to do here and like are you starting things straight away as soon as you realize he's out

okay like is that your job well I can tell you about that the next coaching meeting we had

it's been well documented but we're suddenly wondering who we can bring in you know um

there's so DC's out um we've got um Colin Slade out now we've got Creed and come in

but who are we gonna who are we gonna bring in we thought of every first five in the country

and they're all either overseas or injured and then Mills Molyena passed by the door and um Ted

ran out and said Mills is um is Beaver in Bath yet or is he still in the country

and Mills said oh I'll find out Ted so I think he rang Beaver's girlfriend couldn't get hold of

Beaver who got hold of Steve and then he rang and we're in the middle of a meeting and and so um

he rings Ted and Ted goes oh what are you doing Beaver and he said oh I'm whitebaiting you know

down the Waikarewa and um said you you caught much Beaver and he goes you got a couple of pound

Ted and Ted said that's a shitnader whitebait Beaver he said if you bring that to room 424

that the heritage you can play in the World Cup final that's how it happened

incredible story they should make a movie out of it yeah uh so yeah they were difficult times

we had that incident we we hiccup with um Cora Jane and and Izzie and um you know Mills had

been capped 100 games one of the greatest stars we've ever coached Mills Molyena and um

and he was injured um got injured so um we needed we needed those two to be at their best and I'll

never forget this because neither of the smart guys they were they were heroes of that World Cup

um played brilliantly I thought those two and and um Richard Cahoe for three weeks were probably

the best players in the world but they needed to do something um you know Corry and Corry Jane and

and Israel Dag to make up for an evening out and instead of apologised to the team I still remember

this Corry Jane was playing in the quarterfinal as he had an injury so he couldn't play um

but Corry got on from the team didn't apologise he said I'm going to get a player of the match

in the quarterfinal yeah he can't do better than that and that's what he did and that's what he got

and Izzie did the same for the semifinal I'm going to be the best player on the field in the

semifinal which he was and you just look back and think you know apologies and that to teams are um

you know not but sincere you go out and make a statement like that and you and you do it

that means a lot to the team so um they're all pinnacle events and at us winning that

there's a lot of a lot of adversity in that campaign but um yeah there's a lot of desire as well and

I'd heard you say in interviews that after that that it was the highlight of your career

it would be very hard to beat but there is one which I think they're coming down the line but

before we get to that I've heard you also say that Graham Henry is the best analyst that you've

worked with or in World Rugby like what is it specifically about his eye like why is he such

a good analyst does he watch more rugby than you um probably about the same but we watched it at

different times so I always worked late at night so I'd worked him over 11 o'clock help us live in

and I'll match day I'd normally do my first bit of coding until about two in the morning

and if Tush was with me she'd be reading the magazine or something having a

glass of white wine I'd have a glass of red wine while I'm doing my first coding just to get on

top of it he does all his he starts early in the morning help us for and then we we'd end up at

breakfast and he'd say did you see what um England did against Ireland and I would have seen it the

night before and he's just seen it then we'd have the same discussion we'd seen the same thing um

but he's yeah he's a step ahead are the rest of the staff sitting around the

so we're gonna have a day off you two and play some cards or something Jesus all hard workers is

that right oh man this all black staff are hard workers you know Pete Gallagher George Duncan

Gilbert um Doc you know Gillie the s and c and they work hard it's a really it's a

working environment that really pushes the boundaries you know of um of fatigue and

you know you're under pressure all the time but it's beautiful but that great beautiful

coming together of of totally committed people all after the same thing they're all prepared to

dedicate their lives to it and with families that support them to do it it's it's an amazing

environment I want to jump on that family point really quickly because how important is

Trish it's a two-parter one to Wayne Smith the man and two Wayne Smith the coach

can you separate her role across those two areas um no she she would say that

Wayne Smith the man is a coach and she often says we've been together

41 years but really only 20 of them because I've been away so much um yeah that supports

really critical and support of the my boys have been really supportive and as I say helpful to

scouts they've got a good eye for the game both of them um they put like for as an example when

I was at chiefs they put me on to Anton Bennett Brown and um left to read that story in the book

as well here we go uh yeah and so you know I've had huge support from them obviously but also um

the rest of my family no mum and dad my sister Wendy and her husband Rod Rod's like my brother

they've always been supportive and just a meter you know where I've got to

Trisha's side of the family the same her mum lived with us for years and yeah

I always felt I had loving support to do what I love doing and that was coaching

we'll be right back after this short break

such is the depth of the Wayne Smith story that we're going to brush past the other

World Cup when you had in 2015 just because I'm a bit weary of time and I want to give

the ferns story what it's worth but sort of take us to about two days before you had applied for

the pension and then all of a sudden you're appointed as the black ferns coach the conversation

with Trish you said hey going on again you know how I went for the pension two days ago actually

I'm now head coach of the Warns World Cup team um she was totally supportive I actually got home

after that first week I was buggered like I hadn't coached for a while I took every session

unfortunately people had resigned when that mental health report came out and

I was sort of stuck in the middle with Wes Clark Whitney Hanson who'd been a one day a week intern

Glen Moore who'd been the head coach it was really hard on Glen he's a good mate

um it was really difficult on him so I got home after that first week I could hardly speak I

laryngitis you know taking all these sessions I'd been pushing the girls and you know I'd made a

statement and we're going to win we're going to win the World Cup at Eden Park in front of 40 000

but we're not going to win it today we've got we've got a lot of work to do and so they bought into

the game we wanted to play and the skills that they needed to play that game so we started

early um but I got home that first week I said to Trish I was starting to feel I don't reckon I can

do this like um it was just so hard and she put her arm around my neck and gave me a hug and said

you got to do it like it's too late for anyone else you've got to do it so yep so I thought right

I've got to steal up here and um managed to get Mike Cron my old mate Mike Cron on board Scrum Doctor

who's yep more than that way more than a Scrum Doctor Mike Cron just a brilliant coach I'm best

in the world on two World Cups with him with the man and now one with the woman um and he was the

ideal mentor for Whitney so Whitney was made head forward coach um and Crono was a mentor but you

got the best coach in the world mentoring a woman with huge potential you know so um that balanced

out well had Wes Clarke who I'd been working with for quite a few years before that anyway as a mentor

he was the defence coach and um I fought hard to get Alan Buntingen I'd heard a lot about Alan Bunting

as a um in terms of culture and leadership that he creates in the sevens he a huge success

loved by the girls Olympic gold multiple World Cups so I was working with New Zealand Rugby

to see if I could get him in to run the cultural leadership side because it was taken as toll on

me I like it was I was under the pump um I was working with the leaders on a concept

and I needed someone to run it so luckily Bunts was able to come in can I just say a long way from

second year university at University of Waikato Alan Bunting to who he is now yeah like that

progression as a man is incredible just not that I claim to know him very well but I just

remember the dreadlock guy who was kind of on the fringe of the seven circuit to see who he is

and what he's doing now is an incredible progression yeah and he tells that story too because he had

some tough years but we've all had you know when we're younger doing things we shouldn't do um and

that's what makes him a great human and in that environment so he and I worked really well together

you know initially initially we were going to base everything on a waka and we designed these

ideas we haven't a chat one day with a leadership group and decided we're not actually going anywhere

so we don't need a waka um and we decided let's let's use our fari

pellets base everything on our fari and what does that mean so who are we what's our identity

let's everyone tell us about their fari and so we started a process to Faritapa where everyone had

to um had to present to the team at some point about where they come from who they were what

was their upbringing was like what their purpose is what their strengths are what do they need to

work on you know all that sort of stuff who their mentors are what was your just pause it what was

your Te Aomari knowledge before your rugby journey um my Te Aomari knowledge comes from

Patataru that's about it ehor we call each other ehor um you know I I know a lot of words

tauranga puka and all that because you use them in everyday language in Patataru I'm going to

study it I think at some point it's very same vowel sounds as Italian yeah I speak Italian so

hopefully I'll be able to pick it up but even the even the concepts of Māori Māori them like

they seem to be really strong through your coaching now is that something that you've

picked up along the way yeah I think um well obviously kind of where I came from but also

the chief's experience um the looking at the history um known and to admit the

about the settlement by Tainui and and having followed what where they went we we followed

their trail um we united the region so yeah um I have had some experience in it but I wouldn't say

um I'm anywhere nearer um an expert in it and I don't speak it very well um when I

gave my PEPER I use the odd room the odd word but I can't I've never started to do a proper PEPER

but this um this experiment we tried with it to phototopify

created huge social capital in the team and massive vulnerability which is always important

and it really united the group and I'm forever thankful for Buntz coming on board because

he was able to drive that and he and I presented first along with I think Ruby Ruohae and Kendra

Coxidge and Wes Clark we were the first ones to present and then you know we fitted girls in

or right through the season there were some traumatic ones um there were some funny ones

um but through it all there was a lot of support a lot of tears um

but a real understanding of who we were and everyone knowing each other and I think it was

a massive part of us doing what we did at that World Cup this story is so epic the whole coaching

journey which we've spoken about sort of culminated in this using all of the experience you've gathered

along the way it's like 159 days to turn this thing around and you end up winning it the story's

been well documented but when you're going in there and you're meeting the team and you've got

fresh eyes on them like how are you establishing leaders like straight away are you throwing out

the knowledge that's been passed on are you just going in with a fresh approach um well having

people like Wes and Whitney as my co-coaches I call them not assistants um they knew the players

I didn't know the players um an example of how we operated so um the end of that first week

we had a game planned against the Lincoln Academy boys I wanted to play the boys and men all the

way through to really challenge ourselves and we were getting a bit of a hiding but we were

practicing all week a new game plan which was all out attack and it was about learning from each

play so that we could attack the right space next time and offloads supporting and offload is

different to supporting a ruck and it takes a long time to teach cue recognition beyond the ball

is the offload going to be on here or not is she going to pop off the ground maybe change lines for

that no she's not now I've got to clean and that's quite a sophisticated thing to do and you can't

touch it quickly but you've got to start somewhere so anyway we the fourth quarter of our match against

Lincoln um I went out to listen to what the girls were saying and this woman called real

hey demont was put on to play in the last quarter and she spoke and she spoke eloquently to the team

about what the effort you're doing girls like we spent all week practicing the stuff that smithy

wants us to use and you're using none of them where's your courage and that fourth quarter was good

it was brilliant I was able to cut some clips from and say yeah now we're cooking with gas if we

can play like this so it gave us some light but I went back to the bench and asked the other to

so who was that girl who was speaking they said that's Rui Demont was she a black fan yet she

played for the black fans um I don't know if she'd been a first choice player or anything

was what they said and um I said well she's going to be our captain for a start

that's my first thing she's going to be our captain and I go

but you know sometimes you just get that feeling for it and then

it soon became obvious that some of the older leaders went went get to make it which was hard

it's hard for them hard for me telling them that but it was a reality we've got so many young

women coming through the game and so many exceptional women we had about 55 I reckon

that could have played at the World Cup and so it made it difficult and we had to be really sharp

with who we wanted I still remember Ruby ringing me um one day and saying you want to see this

you want to see this 18 year old girl in Auckland plays midfield um I said what's her name Sylvia

Brunt you've got to have a look at us maybe like she's phenomenal so just things like that you

know I started learning about different women around the country giving them opportunity we gave

everyone opportunity um during the pack four we played the whole squad I've all got a chance

um then we had a trial and we had a um a Riley test over in Aussie again we gave everyone a chance

um and I'd always said to them we're not the coaches aren't going to pick the team you pick

the team with your performance and it'll become obvious through the year um who can who can do it

and who we're going to take the World Cup so um that's the way we operated and yeah we um we ended

up with a phenomenal group of women as I said before they'd give to community like sighted

um you'd hop on a bus coming home from training and someone would get up and say

oh we were shit today girls doing that um hop our seven up in the team room we're on

Smithy's tactical mat coaches will come but we hardly had to say anything you know that you want

them teaching each other um yeah yeah you know as as a leader you need to keep thinking

is what I'm doing helping these people flourish you know are they are they responsible for their

own learning that's the way that we were coaching and the girls just adapted to it they were awesome

and so they'd fix things up upstairs next day they'd be a bit more prepared again and we just

we continued that on for the whole campaign and we just got better at what we were doing

though the biggest mistake I made was that we were that we worked so much on identifying

the attacking possibilities or the and or the opportunities in every situation

that we failed to understand had a close out of game

you saw it yeah you can't too far um but you just couldn't move the girls I remember um

when we played Japan just prior to the tournament Eden Park there was a big wind coming down the

field and before the toss I went out tested the wind came and saw Ruhe and said um the

big wind coming down the field just check the app it's going to stop at about half time I think

we should take it if you win the toss she looked at me like I was mad she said hell no if we win

the toss we want them to kick us aboard so we're going to attack so I have a big I have a big

idea that's my girl but that's the attitude that we run because we knew that's the only way we're

going to win yeah but to play that game you've got to have an exceptional skill level be able to pass

close to opposition um no ticking the pass because you've got time um pass off either foot

you need the support player to be excellent you know and so we had to teach all these all these

skills and the women would take over so at the start of training they'd do their own warm-up for

20 minutes and a leader would whistle and right now we're going to do the um box support drill or

now we're going to do the knife through butter drill or whatever and they took over a lot of the

a lot of the activities so that we could when we got into training where you just go hard at

you know um at the game rather than having to me having to run all my um skill drills again

we'll be right back after this short break

it's it's just the most perfect story with the most perfect ending but how much do you think

about those small margins those like sliding door moments right that kick goes over in the

semifinal by France and then we don't have this epic story that was a makeable kick that she should

have made and then we don't get all of the goodness that's come to New Zealand rugby afterwards and

that you know like do you think about that stuff yes and also the luck of the other red card

I mean that the instant it was a red card but um that then creates an opportunity for you against

England you know and um we all know how powerful they were uh that gave us an extra opportunity

I think so there's a bit of luck there the miss kick was lucky but we had opportunities in both

those games to seal the win so we had a we had penalty down on the French half late in that game

we could have kicked the touch our lineout drivers going pretty well we probably even

could have scored from that but instead we tapped and went my fault because um we had this call

find it so every opportunity if we had a penalty and the other team got slack and started walking

back to where they thought the the kick was going to go out then we'd call find it and we'd just

attack um but probably wasn't appropriate with four minutes to go in a semi-final and the same in

the final um so Ruhe lined up that we so we had the penalty our 10 meter line should probably

want to kick down 22 our lineout throw England probably not going to score from there it's

certainly not going to they can drive but they can't not even they can drive that far and so um

um we thought the game was over there as Ruhe lined up and Kendra Cox edge could find it

are you knowing your assistants at that point and the boss the magnificent Kendra Cox edge

I must say she's uh she's she's a fantastic athlete she was a she was a great guest on

the podcast as well she's brilliant and yeah and so what played out played out how did how's

Wayne Smith celebrate that that that finish was edge of your seat gripping uh you get the win

like does emotion pour out of you at that point yeah um it was pretty like I can't say we were

I was that composed in the box because I was screaming at Chrono to get someone up and the

line out get Jonah up but he didn't have a ziplug it so he couldn't hear me Whitney he was a bit

more composed than me she got hold of um Rene Wickliffe who was running the water and said

pongo get out there and just make sure Jonah goes up but Jonah had it sussed he talked to

Jonah she had it sussed she's a very smart woman she knew what the cues were we knew what the cues

were the line out but we were struggling to pick them but she picked it abbey ward slight slight

nod um she yelled at crystal Murray to lifter I think it was either Elana or Chelsea being rid of

as a back lifter and she was screaming at him to lift her and the rest's history yeah um and then

afterwards yeah it's um I suppose that one because when I started it was unexpected

you know I made brave statements about are we going to win it

be in park in front of 40 000 but it doesn't mean it's going to happen you know and a part of

here feels well it's a long way to go it's a long you know we're going to make a lot of

improvements before we can do that and then for it to happen it's sort of becomes surreal

at that stage of your career as well for it to happen there's this opportunity which you never

could have seen coming and then to do it on short notice and win and I mean I know you're

still working now but it kind of was the sort of the icing on the cake there's cherry on top

yeah yeah like I thought I I could give the coaches a bit of advice

during the year I knew I thought I was going to be the head coach and running everything and

we had a very disparate sort of group of um people on the staff they'd come from all over the place

and initially we were to high performing group at all um but we became the intelligent people

in all the roles who grew to understand what we were trying to do and ultimately loved what we

were doing whereas at the start they'd been they'd been call it as well by the mental health report

they were pretty shattered but it was just great to see these people all come together

and a couple examples so um I've I've worked with players in a dojo since the Crusaders in 97

because I believe you've got a condition for combat now it's a tough tough sport and you've

got a condition for that with full contact but you've got to do it in a safe environment

so when I started it with the woman there was very much a shock horror reaction from the staff

holy hell we're not going to have anyone left for the tournament and my argument was always the

opposite no it's we're going to have more people available because we're learning

safe techniques safe safest techniques are always the most effective as well

people think of you teach teach safety you're not going to be competitive teach safety you'll be

more competitive because like chin up and eyes open allow you to see the opportunity or his head

down smashing into contact doesn't so um we're teaching these things and I think most of us

just met all the staff would say now if you interviewed them one of the key things at that

world cup was a dojo because we never got any any contact injuries sorry for the ignorance is it

is a dojo a metaphor or are you actually going in actually in dojo wow yep padded walls um what

metaphor did you think it was well like coaching coaching deals a metaphor like you're going to

going into battle you're not actually going into battle but you know what I mean there's a there are

horrified looks on the faces when we started from the girls but man they did it as hard as any

men's team I've had in fact we got um Adrian Chowton when we were at a dojo in North Harbour

and you know he's I love the way he plays it as a seven and he's great making decisions over the ball

so I got him in to um help the girls with a bit of queue recognition and I think he was stunned

at the intensity of the combat and we're doing our with the backs forwards have been doing weights

and then they'd swap around and because one group had tried to be better than the other group

and so whilst it looked violent it was it was a really I think um influential part of

us being ready for those big games so that was important um and you know as I say the

the staff in in general bought into everything we had club nights on a Tuesday night our girls love

a club you know they love the club they love a club night few beers and a bit of fun we didn't

have time to do it after game so we'd have it on Tuesday night I read the club dues he's had a club

captain Asia let the linger was a club captain we got her a blazer pink blazer from an op shop and

we all brought badges along you know our club captain's badges on and then she ran the show on

a Tuesday night and we we had a through the whole campaign we ran a competition called

power wars so we had many teams and you got points for winning competitions so we have

competitions at club night still going to the chiefs isn't it yeah yeah that's right and um

we'd we have competitions that on the field um everything we did was competitive

and so initially too that was sort of frowned on a wee bit I think by the staff because I'd

allow them to have a beer if they wanted a beer and um or red wine we had food trucks often um

but it was superb at getting laughter yeah and you've got to you got to enjoy it we had a lot of

laughter and after a Monday and a Tuesday of hard work Tuesday nights a great time to to relax and

then you've got the next day to to ignite yourself for the Thursday Friday and then the game so we

worked out pretty well but yeah it wasn't wasn't wholly accepted at the start I'd say the whole

careers worked out pretty well Wayne um we're sort of getting to the end now but you're you're still

involved high performance mentor so we talked about is that individual mentoring or like what

what do you do in at the moment well I'm not too sure I don't know I talked to Bunce and

so we were delighted to come in and you're so I can come for a couple of days down at camp

so I'll go and I work with Mike Delaney oh Mully what a guy yeah Mully's here um Tony Christie

two really great young coaches open open to learning um just want information you know

want to get better Steve Jackson um he was head coach of North Harbour he's coaching the forwards

and of course Bunce in there and um Craig 20 when the the um strength and strength and

distance coach that we had so um I love it I love going in and looking at training giving

some ideas at a coaching meeting they can take them or leave them but you know we have some good

discussions and with Razor I'm not sure what that's going to look like so we haven't we haven't

met yet we're in contact um on whatsapp he's coming up in a couple of weeks for a chat can I just

ask a quick question does he sign off his messages to you with a little Razor emoji

or is that just for people he doesn't know and doesn't with me yeah just just

Stephen got the Razor emoji on trying to get him on the podcast that he said back and he had a

little Razor emoji at the end I wasn't sure was that only in your cat yeah maybe hey well

yeah sure so he hasn't responded um yeah so we go back a long way obviously coached

him and Crusaders know him well I'm looking forward to that looking forward to uh been up to um

exchange ideas you know I know that um he'll listen and he'll take what he wants and

leave out what he doesn't want and that's fine that's the role of an advisor so I don't know what

exactly what it'll look like um but we'll work that out along the way is the Women's World Cup

a full stop on the head coaching career well you never say never um but I really enjoyed it

I really enjoyed getting back on the field I'm a head coach the coaches I don't like I couldn't

stand just um other people doing doing where I want to be out there I want to influence the game

through coaching on the field um yeah whether whether I'll either do do that again I'm not sure

but um I say I'm retired but I'm not really I'm sort of semi-retired with um often a sort of maybe

I'll get back into it but you never know you probably won't but one more I kind of picked it up along

you've got analysts at your disposal do you do your own clips still though yeah I do my own clips

so you get um you get your codeine done through sports code and you've got analysts that code

extra stuff it's very sophisticated you know we have KPIs that measure different things I I really

like um the unsung hero KPIs you know because your result is is deeply attached to your effort

and so get off the ground quickly get in the position quickly been efficient with your movements

um supporting the ball carrier everyone coming forward and attack all those things

when your championships so I tend to code in those areas and get charts set up charts that

that show players effort and many units efforts and often often compare them with the opposition

many unit you know to to show did we did we out effort them or not um so yeah yeah um

you get a lot of help there's a lot of information but I still like to

code areas that I'm responsible for and it's a good way to cut your clips for your group that's

going to present afterwards and do you like the nickname the professor well I like it better than

the mad professor which is what they thought I was when I started with crusaders they put it

please they got rid of the mad uh no I don't think too much about it and last one for me you

now a published author so if you got the um by the time this goes out the book will be in stores

so you all all leading bookstores will be selling it you got the sales pitch really yeah it's a bit

of a overstatement so I'll uh I'll an author it was um Phil Giffords idea he is a pest actually

because he'd ring every three like probably six years he rang every three months um to say you

really do that book I'd go no not interested Jan his wife would begin to ring me on my birthday

oh happy birthday smithy um well can I come up and maybe we have a chatter about the book no

interested finally he wore me down my mum who's 92 and still living in padauro with my sister or

rather or she planned the idea be quite good for me to write a book that she could read before she

before she departs so I start thinking about it yeah um maybe I'll do it but he's put it together

I just did the interviews and as a hell of a big job he had 40 hours of transcripts and then I'm

sending him stuff as well we were over in Europe um while he was putting it together he was sending

me um what he'd written I'd put some more stuff in or edit it a lot of things got mixed up from my

end and in the end I couldn't remember if I'd sent him stories or not and so I was uh I'm hoping to

bring out a second edition next year and add in some stories yeah nice because uh I got a lot of

mates are going to be ringing me going you didn't even mention me in your book yeah I'll go well I

had a story on you but I don't know where it is but oh yeah yeah so I've got a bit that I've got a

few relationships to fix up I think after this comes out there's been a few nice teasers in the

set so go and check it out I'm sure there'll be an amazing read it's been such a pleasure and an honor

actually just um going through your life and career so thank you so much for coming in and giving us

so much of your time um I've learned a lot from I know the audience will too but Che

yeah your dedication I think to your craft has been evident through this conversation

and it's no wonder that you're the only person to want a menswell cup and a woman's will cut the

amount of time and effort and care that you put into the sport of rugby particularly um is incredible

you're well deserving of your knighthood um and I think it's amazing that you're so willing to share

that knowledge with other people not just in rugby but in other sports as well so thank you very much

for sharing some time with us and sharing some of those insights and um look forward to reading that

book it's been a real pleasure um thanks everyone who's watching and you guys that's standing I can

see why you're number one um it was really enjoyable I'm just worried now about the car because I

probably get $150 fine for over parking we'll pick it up lad hey cheers lad okay thanks guys

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