Between Two Beers Podcast: Sarai Bareman: FIFA’s First Chief Women’s Football Officer, Corruption & Sexism, Eugene Bareman’s Success

On this episode of Tween Two Bears, we talk to Sarai Barrowman.

Sarai is one of the most powerful and influential women in world sport.

She's been FIFA's chief women's football officer since 2016 when the role was first

created.

Her mandate included doubling the sport's global female player base from 30 million

to 60 million, and she's ultimately responsible for all levels of the game, from grassroots

through to elite international competition across 200 countries.

Quite a big geek.

In this episode, we talk about her relationship with her brother, UFC superstar coach Eugene

Barrowman and their humble beginnings, the chaos and stress caused by the Auckland shootings

on the morning of the first World Cup game in New Zealand, how she worked her way up

from a bank teller in West Auckland to the biggest job in women's football, the misogyny,

corruption and abuse she accounted along the way, and all the best pinch yourself moments

from her epic rise.

This one was pretty special, and after making it to the end, you'll be able to see why Sarai

holds the position she does.

She's sharp, articulate, empathetic, and perhaps most importantly, authentic.

There's no FIFA talking points in this one, it's Sarai Barrowman as you've never heard

her before, one of our all-time favourite apps.

Listen on iHeart, or wherever you get your podcasts from, or watch the video on YouTube,

and follow us on Insta and TikTok to see the best video clips from each episode.

This episode was brought to you from the Export Bear Garden studio.

Enjoy!

Sarai Barrowman, welcome to Twin TVs.

Thank you for having me, I'm apprehensively excited.

Don't be apprehensively excited, just be excited, it's good, it's good.

I'm excited, I'm excited, I'm so proud of you guys and what you've done with this podcast,

so I'm pumped to be on here, I'm on it.

Thank you very much.

Thanks so much.

We're excited to have you in the Export Bear Garden studio.

Growing up in West Auckland, you must have had a few garage parties with the Export Golds

back in the day.

A fair few, I have to say I'm not a beer drinker, but in those olden days you drank whatever

was put in front of you.

So there was Export, I think there was Lion Red, we had DB, I mean, whatever it was.

What was it called?

A few KGBs?

A few KGBs?

Yeah, Tattoos.

Tattoos, I forgot about those.

Was it a snake bite as well?

Was that a little one in the green bottle?

Was it called a snake bite?

No, that's the tattoo.

Oh, yes, yes.

Sorry, sorry.

It's got like a black kind of lizard dragon thingy on it.

I've been out of the games for so long guys and I don't know the alcoholic drinks anymore.

Which comes as a surprise to you, Sorai.

I'm shocked, I can't believe it actually.

I want to talk a bit more about this.

So what led to this decision?

You might have seen me on the beers on a few occasions back in the day and it just wasn't

serving me anymore.

Really?

Yeah, the hangovers were getting too much.

The conversations in my head that no one else could hear were just getting too much.

And, yes, Steven helped me one day, said, man, you're out of everybody I know, you're probably

the one that doesn't need alcohol to fit into a social situation.

And he was right.

That's true.

Yeah, and I, from that moment, made a decision and I was out.

So the between two beers name is a bit of a gimmick.

Yeah, man, how the fuck can you do this podcast and not be a drinker anymore?

Anyway, I just muddle my way through.

Steven has the two beers on my behalf, unless it's an early, early morning.

Well, I might have a beer with you today just to make up.

But you know what?

Solid.

Thank you.

Solid fucking good on you, man.

Thank you, I appreciate it.

I'm proud of you.

Thank you very much.

I must say as well that my mum, Jen, sends her regards.

We've done nearly 140 plus episodes and I don't think she's ever been so excited that when

I told her that we were going to speak to you, that you were coming on.

So you met in Papua New Guinea, my beautiful mum, Jen.

So she sends her very, very best.

I love Jen.

Jen and I are like two peas in a pod.

I feel like all the things that Jen loves, I love.

And I know in Seamus' life, if Jen approves of something, then it's totally okay and it's

above board.

And apparently she's on board with Seamus' new love.

New love interest in Seamus.

New love interest in Shae's life.

I love where this is going.

I hear about this.

So Rai's come to play.

She's come to play.

Yeah, Doc Brown, she's very happy with Doc Brown.

So things are going well in that regard, yeah.

I'm excited to meet her.

Yeah.

And yes, see who is it that has taken Seamus Martin off the market?

Tame the world.

This episode is not about me.

That's good.

It's good.

We're recording this on the afternoon of the Eden Park semi-final.

But I wanted to start pre-tournament.

So I think they call it matchday minus one.

Is that right, Shae?

Is that the terminology?

Correct.

Yeah, that's competitions lingo.

I saw Sarai.

I saw you at the OC Congress.

You gave me a big hug, hadn't seen you for a long time.

And I said, how are you?

And Sarai said, I am super stressed.

Yeah.

What is there to be stressed about matchday minus one of a FIFA Women's World Cup in your

country?

Where do I start?

It's just so much has been building up to that moment.

And you just, you feel an immense pressure at that point in time because you don't know

what's coming.

You don't know how it's going to be received.

You've planned and strategised and every single possibility, plan A, plan B, plan C,

all the contingencies are there.

Everyone's ready.

But somehow in that moment, it's terrifying because you're ahead of it.

I don't know.

It's like...

Are those moments like a blur?

I think back to that.

It's a room full of people.

You're greening everyone.

You're probably excited because you haven't seen people for a long time.

But is it that kind of just the blur of going through the motions?

It is a bit going through the motions.

One thing that I've been trying to do and really make a conscious effort to do during this

World Cup is stop and take in moments instead of just blurring through them and rushing

on to the next thing and always being on my phone and just actually just sit in the moment.

I've had to consciously do that because if you don't consciously do it, you end up just

getting sucked into the thing.

Yeah, before you know it, it's over and it is a big blur.

So yeah, I've tried to take in moments but it's immense.

It's a freaking beast.

Like the level of detail of stuff that I have had to deal with in the last 12 months is beyond

anything that I ever imagined I would be thinking about, talking about, deciding about.

It's just, it's nuts.

And my retention for information now is so low and so short because my brain is just

so full of like, how many seat cushion covers should there be in the VIP in Eden Park?

And how many, what colour should the table things be inside the lounge?

And how many bibs do we need?

It's just like this immense level of detail which is involved in an event of this magnitude.

I mean, you know it.

You've been involved.

Yeah, not to this level.

This is a big, big beast, like you said.

On that day before match day one, do you have actual jobs and responsibility?

Is everything in order at that point?

Yeah.

Like are you doing a speech at Congress that night?

Is that kind of on your radar?

Yeah, so no, it's, I mean by that point, like operationally, we're set to go.

We're good to go.

Like there's not really anything else but kind of busy work to kind of keep people occupied

before kickoff.

But yeah, if you don't have it done by then, you're fucked.

So imagine in all your contingencies, unfortunately, the situation that unfolded on the morning

of the match day wasn't on the horizon.

No.

And for those that don't know, we're talking about the shooting in downtown Auckland on

Queen Street, which was on the morning of that match in England versus Norway.

Yeah, that was unbelievable.

Yeah.

And where we're staying at the FIFA hotel, it's like a block away.

And what woke me up was actually the police helicopter.

It was the police helicopter flying up above the area that woke me up.

I was like, ah, this is so annoying.

I wanted to sleep in today.

What is this?

My transport is early.

Oh, mate, I wish.

No, but yeah, I thought it was a joke.

I couldn't believe it.

So I looked out the window.

I saw the helicopter.

I was like, what's this?

Turn on the TV, breaking news.

I couldn't believe it.

And that morning, we had TVNZ set up to broadcast the morning show from the fan zone, which

was directly where the shooting was, you know, in the cloud.

And they were like on the spot reporting.

They just happened to be there.

It was like, it was unbelievable watching it unfold on TV.

Yeah.

Was there a point when you were watching it that you were thinking this might impact

the start of the talk?

Was that going through your mind?

From the moment that I saw breaking news, shooting blah, blah, blah, looked out the window,

saw the helicopter, saw the police cars flashing lights.

And the fact that what the images that you saw on TV in that morning report were fully

armed police like sprinting around, hurting people with their guns.

It was confronting.

It was confronting.

Without having the responsibility of running the biggest event that's ever come to our

country.

We were recording in here.

We came out.

And everyone was around the TVs.

It was like, fuck, now this is heavy.

And then knowing in a few hours, you've got the opening game of the biggest deal on

it in the history of New Zealand.

Honestly.

So my first thing was like, holy shit, this is happening.

This is like a serious situation.

I hope that people haven't died.

What is this?

Is this terrorism?

Is this like, what does this mean?

And then I just went straight into crisis mode and picked up my phone and was like, okay,

what do we need to do here?

And yeah, FIFA being FIFA has this full on like emergency structure.

We have this thing called the C4 structure where like things get elevated and escalated

amongst different levels.

So like the lowest level is like the balls weren't delivered to the team on time inside

the stadium or whatever up to shooting match day one.

International incident.

International incident.

Yeah.

So we went into full crisis mode.

Yeah.

So this was the highest level?

Yeah.

This was the highest level.

Yeah.

We went like everyone is based in the park higher in the FIFA hotel.

I rang up my boss.

She's not a morning person.

But she, I think she obviously knew if I was calling her that early in the morning that

there was something serious going on.

And I said, boss, we need to stand up our crisis management group.

There's a shooting incident downtown one block from here.

I'll be in your room in two minutes and we'll, yeah, set up the meeting.

Wow.

So it was, yeah, it was nuts.

We just got dressed, basically sprinted down to her room on another level.

And then, yeah, we were, yeah, from that moment on in full crisis management mode.

And the moment that it hit me, like how serious the situation was, was when we were on a group

call, speaker phone call with Grant Robinson, the Minister for Sport, the Prime Minister,

the President of FIFA, Gianni, Fatma and myself.

Yohana Wood was there too, the New Zealand football president.

And they gave us information because we had the TV on and everyone was still wondering

what the hell was going on.

Like, what is this?

And in that call, they gave us confidential information about what was unfolding and what

was going on.

So we were privy to this information, which explained the situation and also, by the way,

gave us an immediate sense of relief that this wasn't related to the tournament.

But that's when it hit me like, fuck, this is the big time.

Like, this is a serious moment.

We're talking to the head of the country here.

He's giving us confidential information about the situation, putting us at ease as a big

tournament organizer.

And we've got this whole, yeah, it was, it was surreal.

It was totally surreal.

I couldn't believe it.

Yeah, that day was an absolute blur.

Yeah, because then fast forward a few hours.

Yeah.

The unthinkable happens on the football field.

Oh.

And New Zealand wins their first ever match at a World Cup.

I couldn't believe it.

What a day of emotions.

It was a complete day of A to Z of the emotional scale, like fear, anticipation, nerves, joy,

just pure, like raw, like ugly crying at the stadium in front of a lot of people.

I was really, me and Chey were both at the game, I was really emotional too.

And I was sort of reflecting back on it.

I was having a pint at a bar in Kingsland.

A friend was in a bar in Sandringham, packed, packed with people, more wearing football

shirts, more going to a woman's football game, packed at Eden Park, opening ceremony, amazing,

like the way New Zealand played the winning goal.

And we've got one of our best mates as assistant coach of the football firms.

So we knew the struggles of his journey across the last 12 months, how hard it's been, the

results, Michael Main.

So after the game, we all went down there and Rebecca Stott, who had had a podcast, you

know, we're so wrapped up in the storyline of these people, we know so well.

And it sort of all came pouring out of me at the end there.

It was such a special moment.

That's so cool.

Yeah.

And so many people have said that.

Like the number of people that I've spoken to that were in the stadium, the opening

ceremony, like the representation of Māori culture was for a lot of people, like a really

proud emotional moment to see the two cultures coming together.

The football, obviously the win, but even people watching at home.

Like, I love hearing people's stories about what that day, what that match meant to them

and how it basically sparked a revolution for women's football and what a dream start

for us.

Like you couldn't ask.

Yeah, you couldn't have scripted it any better, right?

Yeah.

It was incredible.

When you work as a journal at a game, you're meant to remain neutral.

But even if it's your team, you're meant to not sort of show emotion.

Is it the same in FIFA?

Like, are you in the VIP box and you're meant to be keeping a cool head?

Oh, mate.

I had to physically get up and move out of, we have what we call like the protocol heart.

It's like competitions speak for like the real serious VIP area.

It's those people that were on the call earlier in the morning, right?

Exactly.

Yeah, those people.

So we, it's like the seats that have like cushions and a little table next to it and you can

put your drink and whatever so that that's where I normally sit.

And in that game, I had to get up and move because that area is like very somber and

serious and like, you know, and I couldn't, I couldn't do it.

So I looked over and I saw Sarah Gregorius and my Jackman was sitting like a couple of

days over, obviously going nuts.

So I went over and joined them and I watched the rest of the match with them like screaming

my head off, crying emotion, like being totally un-fIFA and un-neutral.

But it was just, it was impossible.

Like it was trying to retain a freaking beast that was inside me.

There was no way I could do it.

It was real.

I wouldn't say fear is the right word, but there was concern that that New Zealand team

were there sort of for the beating and that it could get ugly in that first game and the

public might fall away.

For them to perform the way they did, the best game on the biggest stage and to totally

deserve that win.

Yeah.

Are you, are you in like Gianni and Ian Rice?

Are you in a group chat?

We're like, oh, we are in here.

This is so good.

It's going to be so good for the tournament, right?

We've got a few WhatsApp chats going on.

We definitely do.

But just exactly what you said, the fact that people were like discounting them and that

they did it so well was also like a kind of like a, yeah, like vindication.

I could just imagine like Wilkinson scores and then it's Sarah's like, side-eye emoji.

We're going to fucking do it.

So good.

So good.

But after that game, I had this moment with Ian Rice in the stands because he's here.

He's like doing this really awesome content thing called Rice's Diary and he's been going

around New Zealand and Australia like into the real kind of untouched places on the side

of the World Cup doing stuff.

And so we've been in touch and he's like the most epic, epic woman's football supporter.

And like just through and through believes in it so much.

He's like mates with all the players in England.

He's like just a real diehard woman's football supporter.

And after we won, obviously everyone was totally, you know, elated and emotional and taking pictures

and it was massive.

And then I, we spotted each other like through the Tribune and I was like, Ian, he's like

Sarai.

And we had this like movie moment where we just ran up to each other and just had this

massive hug.

And I think it was just so joyful.

Like just for New Zealand, for the start of the tournament, just for the sheer relief

of the stress of the morning and the shooting and everything.

It was like such a cool moment.

And then that was another pinch myself moment where I was like, oh my fucking God, I'm like

hugging Ian Rice in the freaking Eden Park Stadium.

I'm like, as the boss of the biggest sport in the world.

That was like another little like moment to remember and store away for the kids later.

That is so cool.

And then so after the game, you're on a killer and then Australia win their game and then

we're into it.

And then we're into the World Cup and you're away.

Has each day just bought like a new adventure?

Has it all just flowed effortlessly or has it been stressful throughout the rest of the

tournament?

No, it gets a rhythm.

Yeah, like every venue gets into a rhythm.

Like there's a match day rhythm that everyone kind of picks up.

So I think the first game in every stadium is a bit nervy because that's where all the

teething problems come out.

So I made sure that I got to as many of the stadiums as I could for their first match.

Not that I could do a lot.

Something went wrong.

It was like, I don't know.

I guess just being there somehow made me feel like, you know, karma.

But once that first game was out of the way, like everyone just gets into a rhythm.

Like there's a match day rhythm.

There's a match day minus one rhythm.

There's a post match day rhythm and it just starts moving like a like a machine.

And yeah, once that flow is on, then it just becomes like a beautiful freaking festival of

football to enjoy.

Well, that flow is definitely on across the ditch.

Were you in stadium for the Aussie France longest penalty shoot out of World Cup history?

That is my match of the tournament so far.

Yeah, that is my match of the tournament.

I was in the Tribune watching that and it was all the emotion, everything that you want

from a football match, the crowd, the atmosphere, the back, the forth.

It was so freaking even, even the stats.

I got up and watched it the next morning straight away because I was still like,

it was just such an incredible game and the tension in the VIP area.

I mean the whole stadium, but we had Albanese, elbow.

They call them elbow, elbow.

When you're at your level, are you able to nickname world leaders?

Like in conversation, go, how about this game, elbow?

Is it real like that or is it you still have to retain some form of protocol?

No, I'm all about the protocol.

Yeah, I still do the protocol.

I mean, there's a, yeah.

How about this game, Prime Minister?

Yeah, Prime Minister, very good to see you.

How's it going?

Oh, Prime Minister, did you see that goal?

Wasn't that fantastic?

Yeah, it'd be nice to just drop that.

I can't allow that.

No, I have to say though, when there's big moments in games, everyone loses.

All their decorum.

Yeah, they're all human.

It's everyone is human.

Yeah, and they are human as anything, the Aussies.

Like, you know how I said that protocol heart area?

It's like somber and serious and you don't often hear much.

In Aussie, that is not the case at all.

Like from the top to the bottom, they are freaking screaming.

Are they joining in the old oi, oi, oi?

Yeah, they even get into the wave.

Really?

The waves have been going off in every match.

Yeah, I'm really anti-wave, so I'm like, yeah, I want to sit on the side.

No, no, no, no.

Let me change your mind on that.

It's going to be hard.

You've got to think about the demographic that are at the...

Yeah, I know, I get it.

I mean, we're talking about kids' families.

Yeah.

It's all about you, man.

Yes, you are.

Okay, fine.

Yes, you are.

You guys can all have your wave, it's fine.

The other one I get, like, again...

No, but that's like a big moment for a kid in a stadium,

to witness a wave.

Like, kids bloody love the waves.

It's freaking amazing.

That's a memory.

That's creating memories.

Yeah, all right.

Maybe I'll get on that wagon sometime in the future.

Who knows?

Just on that...

She loves the waves.

She would love a wave.

She would love a wave.

She loves the waves.

I think if she's in stadia, she would be the one kicking off the wave.

It's too cold.

Sorry, you put the kickoffs too late for Jen.

Ah, sorry.

Sorry, Jen.

Just staying on that shootout, I don't remember a game that I've been that captivated with

where I didn't have an allegiance to a team.

I was watching it by myself, it was like 10 o'clock, everyone had gone to bed.

I couldn't even look, like, the tension and the nerves and the anxiety of these players' faces.

I know.

And the Aussie goalkeeper, is it Mackenzie Arnold?

She made that amazing save, and then she stepped up to be the hero.

She won it for her country.

She misses, and then it looked like her head's gone, and she's kind of like, she comes off

her line for one, and you're like, I'll get her out of there if her head's gone.

She comes back and makes an amazing save, and then they have to retake it, and she makes

a save again, and they miss the chat, like the drama.

The drama of it.

They couldn't have planned it, honestly.

You couldn't have planned it.

And every time, I can't even remember who I was sitting next to.

Who was I sitting next to?

Oh, that's right.

I had the French dignitaries next to me.

To my left were the French, like the high commissioner of France to Australia, and the

wife of the Football Federation president.

And to my right were some former Matildas that were there as guests.

They were fucking going full out, crazy, screaming, yelling, jumping up and down, like, living

it as if they were in the match.

And then the French were muted, serious, whatever.

And I couldn't, it was so hard not to cheer for the Matildas in that moment, sitting

next to those French dignitaries, because it was the home country, the whole stadium

was yellow.

And every time that, once it got to that point where we knew that the next goal was going

to win, and the one would just have to score, that was when, for me, it went to the next

level of tense.

Because every time a player stepped up, it was like, oh, my God, this is it.

She can make or break it.

Oh, my God, the entire weight of this country is on her shoulders right now.

If she misses this, it's, you know, and I just, it was just being with the player in

that moment and thinking, fuck, this is the make or break moment of this entire country

in this tournament, on the shoulders of these young women.

Fuck, and didn't they bloody deliver?

We'll be right back after this short break.

I think you said back in 2021 that 2023 will be the year that women's football truly goes

global.

Yeah.

And when I was watching, it wasn't just the penalty shootouts, the quality of the football

and everyone I knew was watching the game in New Zealand and around, everyone was talking

about it.

Yeah.

Has it gone global?

Like...

100%.

Yeah.

100%.

Has it gone better than you could have imagined?

It's gone better than I could imagine.

Like I knew it was going to be good, okay?

Like I'm going to be real open here.

I knew it was going to be good.

We see it building up to a tournament that it's going to be good, because we saw the

Euros sell out crowd for the final.

We saw the domestic leagues, how many they were getting, and you see the data and the

atmosphere kind of stacking up, so you know it's going to be special.

So I knew it, but honestly, it has blown my expectations out of the park, like seriously.

Viewership, attendances, atmosphere, the football, all of it has been incredible.

Unbelievable.

Yeah.

It's hard to take in actually.

I've been trying to enjoy it.

Like everyone keeps telling me, oh my God, this is amazing.

Look at all the numbers and this and that and this.

And I can hear the words and they're telling me, and I'm like, yes it is, it is.

And I'm reading the reports, but I can't sit in that yet.

I think because the tournament is still going, I haven't had a chance to actually just sit

in the success and enjoy it and realise what that means for our sport.

And that'll come, it's probably going to come while I'm on holiday and I'll probably have

some kind of big emotional breakdown.

So that brings us to the current day.

Like we said, there's a semi-final tonight at Eden Park.

You seem relaxed.

Like is there any of that, is there any anxiety or stress now?

Or are you just enjoying the ride for the rest of your life?

No man, it's just enjoying the ride now.

Yeah, it's celebration mode.

There's like little details here and there which are minor, like mostly related to tickets.

My phone has just become the ticket hotline for the Women's World Cup.

Did you put the request in, Che?

Yeah, scene.

What better way than to block out two hours of the afternoon of the game here when no one can get you?

No, this is cool.

This is cool.

This is super cool.

But yeah, it's now it's just celebration moments.

Yeah, and just getting into it and actually watching the football.

Because there's a lot of matches early on in the tournament where you're there.

You're in the stadium.

You're in front of the football but I couldn't recall too much details about the match

because you're so tied up and shit that's going on.

Your phone, people are messaging you.

Like there's all types of like little buyers to be put out.

People are pestering you about coming on a podcast while you're back in the country.

So yeah, so that's what I've loved about the last few matches.

Like quarter finals tonight.

This is such a happy time.

Home is great.

It's such a successful tournament.

Nothing to worry about.

You're just there to celebrate it.

So cool.

Exactly.

Yeah.

We've seen some picks and some vids of you and Eugene and Israel and Alex Orkanovsky as well.

They've been regular attendees at matches.

How cool has that been to share that journey with them?

Yeah.

It's been awesome.

Yeah, it's been really good to see them.

I think just having their support means a lot.

Like more so my brother.

I think like obviously he knows what I do now and you know, we're both like very well,

certainly from my side, very proud of what he's achieved.

But for him to see it like unfold in a World Cup in a packed out Eden Park with sold out

crowd in the full atmosphere, everything, like that's for me quite special.

You know, because he's my big brother.

We didn't always get along.

You know, I spent large part of my life trying to prove myself to him and get his approval,

you know.

So it was really special to have him at the opening match and some of the other matches

as well for all the fighters to come for them to be in and amongst it and enjoying it, like

cheering on the team like every other fan.

Like that.

It was a super proud moment for me.

Yeah.

Trying to remain humble but still be like, yeah, bro.

Check this out.

I'm not sure I framed that well for those listening who don't know.

So Rise Brother is Eugene Barrowman, the best MMA fighter in the world, Israel Arasanya's

coach.

Does it work the other way?

Like have you, has he expressed those same sentiments when you've been at a big event of his?

You know what?

September 10th, Sydney, after the final of the Women's World Cup, will be my first in-person

UFC event.

Really?

I can't freaking wait.

And they've got six fighters on the card.

Israel's defending his belt.

And that is my first ever one that I'm going to in-person.

Like the stars have just aligned.

It's happening at the right place at the right time.

I'm on holiday.

So, yeah, I can't wait.

I can't wait to go to it.

I can't wait to, yeah, be in the stadium and just be screaming for those fighters.

And also not to be responsible for anything that's going on.

You know, if I see some shit going down, it's not my problem.

I'm just going to enjoy this.

Hey, Dana, where's my cushion?

Asshole.

Where's my table?

I know.

It's hard not to be, like, super judgmental when you've been in the FIFA world.

Because FIFA does the, like, everything is, like, on steroids.

Like, just the next level of, like, everything that they do.

And it's hard, like, to go to other events and not be like,

ugh, FIFA would never do that in FIFA this and this and this.

And sometimes I have to check myself and be like, no, no, no.

This is the real world.

Like, this is the real world.

Not everything is FIFA.

Not everything has FIFA budget.

Yes.

But yeah, I can't wait.

Yeah, that'll be awesome.

And he's, yeah, he's amazing.

He's done some cool stuff.

Yeah, we're keen to dig around in that family background area.

I love when we get super successful siblings on,

because I'm just so interested in unpacking,

like, what the magic was of the family foundation.

And we were lucky.

We had Eugene on the podcast a couple of years ago now.

Early day thing.

Yeah.

He was one of your first, yeah.

Lockdown guests.

Yeah.

So many good nuggets of wisdom.

But there's one thing I want to read out that he said,

and I want to see if you had anything similar.

He said, I had a really good system where I'd put a stopwatch on

and I'd set it for three hours.

And regardless of if I got my study done in an hour,

I would work for three hours.

I would stop the stopwatch if I got something to eat

and restart it when I studied.

I did that almost the entire year,

and then I got an A bursary and I went to law school.

Do you remember him doing that?

Yeah.

Did you have anything similar?

Something I admire about Eugene,

which I'm like the complete and total polar opposite,

is his discipline and his ability to stick to a regime.

And it's always been that way.

He's always been so organised.

Like, even his bedroom when we were young, you know,

like, you would get the full wrath of him

if you went in and moved one of his fucking tente.

Do you remember those tente ships?

They liked the flash version of Lego from back in the day,

and they had, like, the ships,

like, full battleships, warships, launchers,

and he had, like, the full collection,

and he would spend hours, like, building them.

And they would all be lined up along the dresser.

And of course, us other kids who were younger

and not part of the special world obviously wanted to get in there

and, like, freaking touch everything.

And he used to absolutely lose his shit

if you touched any of his, like, battleships

or tente toys or anything like that.

So he's always been, like, super regimented.

And I quite admire that about him.

Like, he was like that in rugby.

He's like that when he was a fighter himself,

just the way that he trained and committed himself to it.

He's like that now as a coach.

I think he feels it more than anyone,

the results of the fights that his fighters have.

Even from a freaking dieting, eating perspective,

like, he'll jump onto, like, a, I don't know, Keto or something like that.

And he'll do it from day dot from the moment he says,

I'm going to do it.

And he'll freaking do it, like, 150% cleanly to the tee

with no, like, deviations or cheat days or anything.

Like, he's so...

Yeah, he's got iron will.

I'm, like, the freaking opposite.

Like, I'll announce, okay, I'm doing Keto today.

By 3pm, I'm, like, burgers, fries, fucking munching out,

being like, I'll do it tomorrow, I'll start it tomorrow.

Or I'm, like, okay, I've got this project,

I need to do it.

It's due in two weeks' time or whatever.

Put it off, put it off, put it off, put it off.

The night before, I'll crack into it and do it.

We're so opposite in that respect.

Yeah.

Did you open the first city kickboxing bank account?

Yeah.

Is that true?

That's true.

I was, um, my first job out of school,

like, my first, like, serious job was bank teller.

They call customer service offices these days.

But essentially, like, doing withdrawals and, yeah,

deposits, counting, counting cash.

Yeah.

And, um, in those early days when he first set up the gym,

you know, was all new, he was getting started.

And, yeah, I took him and Doug Beiney, his business partner,

yeah, brought them into the bank and helped them fill out

their forms and set up their account for them,

got it all going.

Yeah, that was, that was, I remember, actually,

back in those days, thinking to myself,

fuck, this is a big step.

Like, my brother is setting up his own business.

Like, this is a massive step.

And I think what I love the most about seeing his success now

is the journey that he's been on

and how deserving he is of that success.

Because a lot of people, they didn't see the struggle.

And it was a fucking struggle.

Like, I'm telling you, there were moments where they weren't

making enough in memberships to be able to cover the lease

for the building.

There were many times where the gym almost closed down

because they couldn't stay afloat.

You know, they were topping it up with their own funds.

Um, the amount of time that he spent away from his children

and his family, like, to dedicate to that business

and to the fighters.

And, yeah, it was hard, man.

It was freaking hard.

And there were moments where, yeah,

I know they were, like, close to losing it all.

So to see it now and know that journey he's been on,

I think that's what makes me the most proud, you know,

that he persevered.

He went through everything he fucking gave everything.

And he deserves the success more than anyone.

This might be the coolest story in New Zealand sport.

I'm just thinking, as you're telling it,

you were a bank teller who opened a bank for Eugene

to start his business, both with nothing right at the bottom

of the totem pole.

And now you run world women's football

and he is the best MMA coach in the world.

Like, it's insane.

Yeah, what are the family foundations to support that success?

Because it's not just you two.

I think your two other brothers are very successful

in their own right as well.

What were the pillars of that household

that allowed you guys as a family to all succeed?

I'm going to say sport played a massive part in it.

Like, from a very, very young age,

we were all really involved in sports.

We did athletics at the Athletics Club.

You know, every week, all of us from age five

all the way through to, you know, 10, 11, 12.

We all played rugby.

So sport...

And this is something I only recognise now

as an adult in the job that I'm doing.

The values that sport instills in you as a kid,

like how to lose graciously,

how to celebrate wins together,

how to be a team player,

the fact that other people are counting on you

to show up, you're accountable to others.

I think having such a presence in sport

was massive, but also just our upbringing.

Like, I think we had such a solid family upbringing.

Like, my dad has got this incredible work ethic

that he instilled in us from super young.

He's Dutch, so he also taught us a lot about, you know,

looking after money, not fucking going nuts with everything, you know?

And that was something really like...

Yeah, the practicalities of life

and like just rolling your sleeves up

and getting on with it and having a strong work ethic

was like something he taught us from super young.

And then my mum is, yeah, she's very religious,

so she instilled in us, you know,

those values that come with being, you know, strong Christian.

And I think it was just the combination of those.

And just, yeah, I mean, we were all equal, all of us, you know?

There was nothing, no one that was above anyone else,

and it's still the same today.

I mean, now, when we're all in the country,

every Sunday, it's family dinner at mum's,

you show up or you're in trouble,

you ask permission to leave the table.

Yeah, everyone has to bring a plate,

everyone has to contribute,

everyone has to have their turn at washing the dishes after.

If you don't, you get a whole bunch of shit.

The moment that you walk in that door,

it doesn't matter if you're the best MMA coach in the world

or in charge of the women's World Cup,

you're not anyone when you walk across that mantle at mum's.

You're the same as everyone, you know?

And I think that's also something that has kept us very grounded.

Yeah.

What's the knowledge she liked with you and Eugene?

Do you guys talk about your high-level jobs

and do you share stuff that's going on?

Yeah, we do.

There's a few times I've had to, like, go to him for advice

and just...

Yeah, it's just...

I don't know, it's kind of weird,

because I guess, yeah, in those conversations,

we are talking about quite massive stuff,

but it kind of feels like just like a normal, like, combo.

Yeah.

Like, one of the things we talked about

in the build-up to this World Cup

was dealing with New Zealand rugby and the All Blacks,

because I know that during COVID,

like, Eugene was in some battles around, like,

what do you call that?

MIQ.

MIQ, that kind of stuff and the disparity

between what the All Blacks were getting

and some of the fighters and this and that,

and there were some issues there as well

with branding or something.

I can't remember what it was.

In the build-up to this Women's World Cup,

we had to negotiate also with the New Zealand Rugby Union

and the All Blacks around the matches that they have planned

in the build-up to their World Cup

and ensuring that they didn't overshadow

what we were doing with the Women's World Cup.

And FIFA being FIFA, you know,

we've got all these, like, really stringent,

exclusive use periods and stuff like that.

And the All Blacks, they ruled the roost here, you know?

The New Zealand Rugby Union

they used to get in what they want.

So I remember having a good yarn term about that

and talking about, you know, how do you deal with that,

you know, when it's such an entrenched culture in this country,

because I know he battled that,

so it was good to get his advice on that kind of stuff.

But yeah, it was...it's weird,

because it just feels like normal combos,

but, yeah, I guess when you think about it, it is, like...

I love the thought of you doing that

at your mum Helen's house, where you're,

like, he's scrubbing the plates,

passing it over to you to, like, dry the dishes,

and you're like, oh, yeah, so what are you going to do

in this situation?

So what are you thinking you'll do with that

for so long?

I've got to speak the truth here.

I did say it doesn't matter who you are,

you still have to help with the cleaning up.

Eugene has never,

ever, once, ever,

fucking done the dishes after dinner.

I never, ever have seen him ever do the dishes

to this day.

That's an MMA level call-out.

That's a UFC call-out.

No, but seriously,

that's a frickin' extreme double standard.

He just doesn't, and it's at the point where

my mum just doesn't even bother asking him,

like, it's just, like, a given now,

but that's, like, maximum level of unfairness,

and it's, I'm calling bullshit.

I'm glad someone finally had the balls to call him on the shit.

Yeah.

About time.

We'll be right back after this short break.

Another curious thing, and it's not the be-all

and end-all of your journey,

but didn't university, was that ever rights for you?

Nah.

So straight from seventh form common room parties

to marriages and KGBs

into floor of the bank.

Yeah. No, it was, you know what it was.

When we left school,

I feel like everyone was going off to do a BA

at Auckland Uni or whatever,

and I was staring down the barrel of four years

at an institution,

and I didn't know what I wanted to do.

And for me, it didn't make sense.

I just thought, why am I going to commit four years of my life

to studying something

when I don't actually even know what it is

that I want to do with my life at this point in time?

So I remember talking to my parents and saying,

listen, I just want to take this year.

I'm going to get a job.

I don't know what I want to do yet,

so let me just work

and try and figure it out,

and then next year I'll join uni.

And at the time I was playing rugby for Massey,

and there was a girl in my rugby team

who was working at National Bank,

and we were just chatting after a game one day,

and I said, oh, I've got to find a job.

You know, I'm not going to uni.

Everyone else is going.

I've got to do something.

And she said, oh, come and apply at the bank.

Give me a CV, and I was like, oh, yeah, okay.

So yeah, I just gave her my CV at the next training.

I went in for an interview and got the job,

and that was that.

And then, I mean, once you start earning money,

like good money, you don't want to fucking go and study.

Like, seriously, I tried it.

Like, I tried it.

I'd been in banking for maybe two or three years.

I was getting a good salary,

and I thought, oh, man, I'm missing out,

because all my mates were studying,

and I thought, you know what, I'm going to try.

I'm just going to go.

I'm going to have a break from work,

and I'll go and do it.

And I went and enrolled at Auckland College of Education,

and I wanted to do sociology.

Like, I wanted to do a field that would help people.

Six months in, I was like, nah.

This isn't the life of me, man.

This is the one.

This is not the one.

Like, you just get too comfortable, like, earning.

And it just also dawned on me, like,

and don't get me wrong, I'm all for education.

Everyone needs to do education.

But for me, it just wasn't the path.

Like, learning it on the job was, like,

a way better thing for me.

So you're in education.

You're in finance and banking for around 10 years or so.

Yeah.

And then you find yourself in Samoa.

Yeah.

I'm interested.

Was it like an eat, pray, love kind of a situation?

Like, what do you find?

I don't mean to disrespect you, but...

Sounds disrespectful.

I understand, like, maybe, far as Samoa

wasn't a big part of your upbringing.

So was it an opportunity for you to do some identity stuff

or connect with Samoa?

Yeah, big time.

It's...

Like, it happened...

It was...

I couldn't have planned it the way it happened.

Honestly, I couldn't have.

But basically, the...

Yeah, we had this huge financial crisis.

And at the time, I was working in property finance.

So, like, our clients were, like,

rich as dudes, it was all dudes,

who basically have built, like,

everything that you see outside.

Like, the waterfront development,

winyard, quarter, all that stuff.

Like, that was our client base.

Like, dudes that were building those massive developments.

If it wasn't those,

it was massive residential developments

out in Howick or wherever or whatever.

So those were our clients.

And those were the people

that were the most heavy hit

when the crisis came.

Well, actually, no, I'm going to rephrase that.

The most heavy hit were the mums and dads

and their houses and everything,

because they'd mortgage them to buy investments or whatever.

But it was these guys that basically

had so much assets and property,

like, beyond anything that you could even think of,

like, just wealth of property,

but no cash.

And so many of them went under.

So it was, like, a...

quite a depressing, like,

place to be working during that period of time,

just to see people falling all around you

and just, like, it was just not great.

I was never, like, that passionate about finance,

as well.

So it just kind of was this moment

where I was actually looking for something else.

Like, I had updated my CV

and I had started to, like, look in the paper

and whatever and look for other stuff.

So it was during that time

and I went to Samoa for the first time.

Like, I feel very proud of being a Samoan

and that's something growing up

that I identified with a lot.

Like, I thought it was super cool to be Samoan.

I remember even at school, like,

identifying with the cool kids at school who were Samoan

and, like, it was such a thing for me.

But as I grew older, I actually realised

I had no idea what that actually meant.

And even though, you know,

Mama's Samoan,

we were raised as Kiwi kids.

Like, we weren't speaking Samoan at home.

The only time we were really exposed to the culture

was if we went to a fala beloved,

like a funeral or a wedding or something, you know?

And then we got chucked in as the half-caste,

like, trying to do the right thing

with all our Samoan cousins telling us,

do this, do that, and, you know...

So, yeah, I wanted to know more.

I wanted to understand it more.

So I went there to meet Mama's family,

to just go to the country and actually see what it was like.

And, yeah, it was there that the Samoan observer,

just like the New Zealand Herald of Samoa,

there was a job advertised for the finance manager.

And I just thought, yeah, I'm gonna go for it.

By then, I'd be playing football.

OK, I wanted to ask.

Like, the romantic story in my mind

was that you were an international footballer

and you were there playing, but...

Yeah, dude.

Yeah, are those two things disconnected?

Oh, I need to clear up this international football thing,

because it's like, what...

I hate that.

Like, every time I get introduced at a conference

or in an interview or something,

the thing that they lead with is, like,

national team players,

Sarai, Barrowman, Samoa, blah, blah, blah,

and they make me sound like this amazing,

like, professional footballer

that has now gone into administration.

That is a bunch of bullshit.

That is absolutely not what happened.

So I...

My first game of football was at Massey High School,

out in West Auckland.

And then my aunt, who's a big football fan,

she took me to her club, North Shore United,

for my first ever game.

I think I was maybe 14 or 15.

And I was, like, the young gun.

You know, they were a bunch of oldies,

like, the young one that could sprint up and down,

and I was the workhorse of that team, basically.

So I started playing club football pretty young,

and I went around Glenfield, North Shore,

and eventually ended up at Waitak.

And, yeah, so I'd been playing.

By that time I'd come to Samoa,

I think I'd been playing maybe for, I don't know,

13, 14 years by then.

So I was into it.

I loved it.

But never to, like, a super high level.

I think the highest I got was

Northern Region, like, representative team.

And in the first game I fucking tore my ACL.

Literally in the first game.

That was my highest ever representative honours in New Zealand.

Literally went up to head the ball,

came back down, tore my ACL, and it was over.

So, yeah, when I moved to Samoa,

and this will come later, like, yeah, I was, like,

while I was an average footballer in New Zealand,

I was, like, frickin' amazing in Samoa.

So you did play on that trip?

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

So there, okay, so the Samoan Observer had this ad.

I put my head in.

At the time there was a dude, he was a Kiwi.

His name was Colin Tua.

He's an ex-National Team player as well.

Amazing guy, Samoan Heritage as well.

And he was there leading the normalisation of that federation.

So normalisation is, like, this FIFA term,

which basically means that Samoa had been kicked out of FIFA,

because the previous dudes were, like, fully corrupt.

They were spending all the FIFA money, basically,

to, yeah, set themselves up and their families.

So they'd been kicked out and they were getting normalised.

So, like, going into administration as a business, right?

100%. Yeah, exactly.

So he was leading it and they were looking for someone

to do the finance stuff, yeah.

So I chucked my head in the ring.

I got the job.

I was really nervous at the interview.

I don't think I've ever been more nervous

for any interview in my life.

Is that because you wanted the opportunity?

Because I fucking wanted it.

I wanted it.

It felt like this, it felt like fate,

because it was, like, my 10-year finance background.

I was in this moment in time where I was looking for something else.

I wanted to get out of that.

I was playing football.

I loved the sport.

And it kind of seemed like this fateful moment

that these two parts of my life were coming together.

And I researched the shit out of it.

Like, I went to the Samoan Library in Apia

in frickin' red books and did Google Internet searches

about Samoan football and learned everything I could about it.

Like, everything.

Like, studied up.

Like, I was studying for an exam.

And I was so freaking nervous.

I remember I wore this really bad shirt that looked good

but was not the right one.

And it was in Samoan, so it was, like, 30 degrees.

It was saturated by the time I got out of the frickin' interview.

Like, just sweating.

Like, just full sweating through this unbreathable shirt

because I was so nervous.

And, like, rattling off all these things that I had, you know, studied.

But I wanted it so bad.

Like, I really wanted it.

Did you ever get feedback on that interview?

Would I? Like, yeah, it was the best interview

we've ever seen in the history of Samoan.

No, you know what?

And then they called me back for a second interview.

So I went through the same process.

I was like, ugh.

Okay, this is it now, you know.

And the nerves, like, went to the next level.

So I fully prepared and I went in for the second one

and I walked in and they bloody offered me the job straight away.

And I was like, ugh.

Good, but like, come on, man.

I just frickin' stayed up all night preparing for this.

Yeah, so I got the job and I eventually became the CEO.

Yeah, what was the time span on that?

Like, how many years?

I think I was, I think I did the finance job

for maybe two and a half, three years maximum.

And started making a good impression and then the CEO job.

Well, then they, then we went out of normalization.

We became normal.

And like, FIFA accepted us back in

and like they voted in a new president and stuff.

And like, then I got appointed as the CEO

under the new, like, normal Samoan football.

Did you have to interview for that?

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, that was stressful.

Yeah.

But by then, the thing that had made the difference for me then

was that, yeah, I knew it inside out.

I knew what I was talking about.

Yeah.

And although my job was finance manager,

like, by then I had gotten fully involved.

I was doing coaching.

I was doing refereeing.

I was like doing development stuff,

coaching kids every Saturday morning.

Like, I was in.

I was full, bought into rebuilding Samoan football

from the ground up.

So you thought you would get that CEO job?

Like, were you voted in or was it?

I was appointed.

I had to do like a whole interview process

and the president appoints in football world.

It's the president that has the power to appoint.

So, yeah, I was a bit nervous

and other people were applying, all men.

But I felt like I had it.

Like, I knew exactly what the sport needed

and I had been in it enough

and I was passionately tied to it by then.

So it was a no-brainer for me.

Were there a lot of female CEOs

in positions of real power in Samoa at the time?

Was that a thing?

Not at that time.

There is now.

Like, they've got a female prime minister now.

But at that time, no.

And it was quite shit at the beginning.

Just being a woman

and I think also that the big thing was being a half-caste

or awhakasi.

I say that about myself.

People say I shouldn't because it's like derogatory

but that's how I saw myself.

And I couldn't speak the language.

I didn't know anything about the culture when I came in early

so I was treated basically like a palangi,

like an outsider.

And, yeah, it was pretty shit in the early days.

Like, just not being respected.

There were some, like, quite horrible, like,

incidents with, like,

basically being yelled at by, like, club presidents

and stuff about getting into the kitchen.

Like, stuff that you...

Yeah, just not nice.

There was a few moments where I questioned,

like, why the hell am I doing this?

Seriously, why?

But by then it was too late, like, I was in love with it.

Yeah.

I've heard you speak really passionately about being in Samoa

and, I guess, the moment you realised the power that football had

and I think it was around a relationship with Special Olympics

in Samoa.

Yeah.

Are you able to kind of talk in detail around that for yourself?

So, we partnered with Special Olympics

on this thing, the Just Play program.

You know that one.

It's like a social responsibility program

that is basically used to expose kids to football

and through football teach them life skills.

And things as basic as, like, in Samoa,

we were doing stuff like the importance of washing your hands

and drinking water instead of coke and whatever.

So, it was through that program,

we did this one with Special Olympics.

If you know Special Olympics,

we work with athletes with intellectual disability.

So, like, Down Syndrome, different kinds of, yeah,

intellectual disability.

So, this is, yeah, it's going to be hard for me to talk about this

without crying.

We, with this program, we went out to Goa.

We call it Goa, which is like the outback of Samoa,

like the villages that are far out from the main town centres.

We had done some research, so we knew in which villages

these kids or athletes were.

So, we went out with our football van

and our big bag of balls and all our equipment and everything.

And we ran this program and what shocked me,

and this is me growing up in New Zealand, you know,

having what I've had, where we got out to these villages

and in some cases, these kids were, like, hidden in their houses.

Like, there was a stigma and a lack of knowledge

and understanding about their disabilities

and their family, for one reason or another, were hiding them.

They were ashamed.

They weren't coming outside.

They were, yeah, not part of society.

And I remember this one boy in particular,

and I just remember going into the house,

because if you know of Fales Samoa,

it's like a very simple, basic structure.

And we went in and we sat down,

crossed our legs on the floor, you know,

we had ear-lover-lovers on to cover ourselves.

Our team was speaking in Samoa into the parents,

and we were trying to convince them

to allow their son to come out

and be part of this football activity.

And eventually, they did.

And we had this game.

It's like a modified game of football on a small field.

And we had the kids with intellectual disabilities,

as well as other kids from the village,

all mixed together, they call it unified.

And they were playing, and it was incredible

to see the parents of that young boy in that moment.

Everything that they thought about their son

and his ability changed.

Everything.

He was playing with the other kids.

The whole village was watching.

Everyone was cheering him on.

They saw this level of acceptance that their son,

that they never even dreamed would be possible

because of football.

And the other kids were interacting with him,

and he was freaking enjoying it,

like just having the best time of his life.

And that's when I realised,

holy shit, this is so much more than just a game.

Like, this is life-changing.

This platform, this sport, look at what it can do.

And that was, for me, like,

I already loved the game at that point,

but that's when that love just turned into,

like, a deep passion for using it

as a way to impact kids like that kid

and that family and that village.

And, yeah, it was so special.

And even today, now today, if I'm struggling,

and this is fucking hard sometimes in FIFA

and women's football as well,

I think about that kid,

and it gives me, yeah, the energy.

Give me if I can tissue someone.

Yeah, it's a good man, Ed.

Thank you.

Holy shit, like, in the telling of that story,

it just became so clear to me why you're in the position.

Yeah, 100%.

Not, I mean, what we've covered already,

but the authentic empathy and connection to the game

and the power of its importance, like, it's so special.

I'm not meaning to,

but I want to dip into the well again,

because I do know this was another foundation moment,

which was speaking at the Pacific Youth and Sports Conference

in New Caledonia.

I don't know the timelines of those Special Olympics

partnership and that address,

which I understand was very powerful,

where you spoke to the challenges of being a woman

in Pacific society ascending to a leadership position.

Can you take us to Newmere?

You've got the tissues now.

Let me have a drink.

God, okay.

Sorry, Mum, I just blasphemed.

Okay.

We'll remove that, so she doesn't listen.

Okay.

Yeah, that was after.

So this is, by this time that I did that speech,

it's when I understood and knew what football was,

what it really meant.

And it was around that same time

that I was experiencing, like, quite a bit of sexism,

like, just innuendos,

like, these kind of, like, gross innuendos

of everything, like, I'd stand up to address a meeting

and you'd just get gross comments and wolf whistles

and just yuck, like, walking through the office,

like, getting groped, like, just gross stuff.

And I was over it.

I was over it. It pissed me off.

Because I thought, fuck this, like, why is it like this

when actually this is such an awesome sport to be working in?

Why do I have to deal with this kind of bullshit

when I'm trying to deliver

and do something I feel so strongly about?

And that was at that time that Frank Castillo,

who's now the General Secretary of Oceania,

he was running this, yeah, Pacific Youth in Sports.

It's basically all youth from all around the Pacific,

from different sporting codes,

they all came together in New Caledonia

for this massive, like, conference.

And he had asked me to speak.

And I was thinking for a long time

about what I was going to speak about.

And it was actually that anger

from a moment in a meeting

where I literally got yelled out of the room.

It was the time that I got told to get to the kitchen.

And by then, my Samoan was getting a little bit,

a little bit okay, you know.

And I understood what they were saying.

Because in the early days, they would speak about me and Samoan,

like, say heaps of shit about me.

And because I couldn't understand it, like, you know.

But once I started to pick it up, anyway.

So it was at that moment, it was in a particularly bad low point.

And I remember walking out of this meeting

and closing the door to my office.

And I cried, and I remember thinking,

fuck this, like, why am I doing this?

I'm away from my family, I'm in this country.

Like, why am I even bothering?

I should just pack it in.

And it was around that moment that I decided

that I would talk about those challenges.

Yeah, and I was angry, and probably a bit naive too

about what it was that I was going to be saying

and who I was going to be talking to.

So I had this whole thing written out.

And, you know, I went into detail.

Like, I actually went into detail saying, you know,

this moment, this happened to me.

I've been groped, I've been sexual and you end those.

This, that, like, I went into detail.

And it was also my first time, like, doing a big speech

in front of, like, more than a thousand people.

So it was like a kind of a, yeah, I was super nervous.

And, yeah, I got up on the stage,

and I got emotional during it, but I spoke my truth.

And I was, it was driven by this kind of anger.

And what's actually, well, it's a funny thing

that I always remember is some of the people

who had harassed me were in the room.

Yeah.

And that was also, like, important to me

that they heard what I had to say

without me telling it directly to them.

And I even remember, like, thinking,

yeah, I hope you fucking know that I'm talking about you.

Yeah.

So I said it, and the crowd started to respond.

Like, I started to get these, like, whoops,

like, encouragement, encouraging me to go on.

And I started to, you know, I felt,

I could just feel this buzz in the room

that people were, like, into it.

And then at the end, you know, I finished,

and everyone just roared, like, totally roared.

And that was cool.

I was like, holy shit, okay.

This was good.

But it wasn't until I walked off the stage,

I couldn't even get past, like,

one step away from the stairs,

and I was just swamped by women.

Other Pacific women from all those islands

that were there, Cook Islands, Papua New Guinea,

Tongan, Solomon Islands, Fiji, Tonga,

like, all these women that I'd never met.

And it must have been, it must have been there for, like,

I don't know, two hours, talking to them.

And all they were saying was, thank you for sharing,

because I'm going through this in my country,

and I have this going on with me,

and this person is doing this to me.

And they were so grateful that someone spoke openly

about what was going on.

And I was so grateful to learn, holy shit,

there's a whole bunch of women out there

that are also dealing with this kind of bullshit.

And that is not good enough.

That is rubbish.

Yeah, so that was also, like, it just,

I don't know, that was a pivotal moment for me,

also as a woman in a position of leadership

to understand the power that I had in that position

to influence change for other women.

And also to know there's nothing that I'm going through

that other women are not going through as well.

And that somehow gives you strength.

Just being able to express to another woman,

yeah, this is bullshit, this is absolute rubbish,

I'm dealing with this, you're dealing with this,

just to have that connection, that's powerful, man.

So that was another moment, and it was,

yeah, it sounds, I don't know how it sounds.

It sounds fucking awesome, yeah.

What was the response?

Like, what happened in the days and weeks after?

Like, was this a catalyst for your right?

Like, did you get on people's radar

because of the way that you spoke?

100%.

That moment, that speech,

that's when I kind of, people knew about me.

And yeah, it was that led to a whole bunch of other stuff.

Yeah, I mean, I eventually started working

for Oceania in the Pacific region.

But people were, people still talk to me about it.

Yeah, really?

People that were there still talk to me about that.

They come up and go, I was there at that moment in 2013

when you did that speech.

We'll be right back after this short break.

So we're gonna start charting your rise to FIFA.

Like, was this, did you become OFC Deputy General Secretary

a year afterwards, right, 2014?

Yeah.

Do you think that was directly related to that speech?

Yeah, 100%.

It was, at that point,

I felt also, you know,

the time I moved to OFC was also the right time for me

to move on, because football in Samoa

was fantastic at that point in time.

We had kids programs, grassroots going every weekend.

We had talent ID programs.

We had the national teams playing youth, senior.

We had the National League.

We had the business competition that was,

everything was going and it was smooth and it was awesome.

And I just, I had, I was kind of at this point

where I felt like I, it was time to move on.

And having that speech and that moment of recognition,

but also that greater understanding of what I could do

with my platform, it gave me this motivation

to kind of go out and go bigger, yeah.

So, yeah, I went, I came back to Auckland.

I was here for a trip in Auckland.

I went into the office in Oceania and asked them for a job.

I said, listen, I'm ready to come home.

I'm ready to move on.

I want to stay in football.

It's really important to me that I stay in football.

Do you have a job for me?

And they did.

Yeah.

And then a couple of years later,

the FIFA World explodes.

And it's the worst crisis in global football history.

Like, you're like, listening to your story in isolation,

global financial crisis.

There's a catalyst for change in your situation.

And then there's FIFA crisis in 2015.

And there's a change, it's like you're, somehow,

the universe has attracted you to chaos,

but also smoothing out those waters,

because you were really pivotal

in terms of that reshaping of FIFA.

Yeah, big time.

Yeah, it was, it was so interesting,

because at the time I was working in Oceania

I was a Deputy General Secretary.

And they have these massive FIFA Congresses every year.

So FIFA Congress is like all the 211 countries

from FIFA come together in one location.

They stay in these amazing hotels

and have this beautiful experience,

and they all go in and vote on things like statutes

and whatever.

So it was like this huge event.

And I was there with all the OFC people.

This is in Zurich, in Switzerland, in 2015.

At the same time, the under-20 World Cup

was happening here in New Zealand.

It was.

Yeah.

Yeah, it was.

Yeah.

So we were there having our usual meetings,

and we woke up, and I remember waking up,

and it was almost the same as the situation

on match day one with the shooting.

In the hotel room, woke up,

my phone was going off.

I was like, what is happening?

Turn on the TV.

And on CNN.

And that's when you know shit is real.

When it's on CNN.

They showed the Boralac,

which is like the swankiest hotel in Zurich,

which is the one where all the main, main dudes

were staying, like the President

and all the executive people.

They showed police cars

warming outside that fucking five-star hotel,

and police escorting people out

in handcuffs, under bedsheets,

into police cars.

And the headlines were like,

FIFA officials, arrested, blah, blah, blah.

And I couldn't believe what was going on.

I was like, what is happening?

It was so surreal.

It was this other moment.

So, yeah, we went, again,

it was like this kind of crisis mode.

I mean, we didn't have anything to do with that, obviously,

but I just remember everyone on that day

were like, what is happening?

What is going on?

Like, this is the biggest global body

for sport internationally.

Our President,

all the main, like, executive dudes

were basically being arrested.

On live TV.

On live TV.

I just remember sitting there and thinking, fuck,

what does this mean?

Yeah, and they went, yeah, I mean, fuck,

they were all corrupt.

They were all corrupt.

And I, yeah, I mean, they deserved it in the end.

They got their just desserts, but, yeah,

that was another moment.

And what that meant was FIFA

was like inches away

from being declared

a criminal organisation

by the US Department of Justice.

What that actually means

is FIFA was about to be declared

the same level as the mafia,

like an actual criminal

mafia organisation.

Like, that's how serious it was

and how deep the corruption was

and how entrenched it was.

And the money changing hands,

the backdoor deals that were going on,

I mean, it's all been documented now.

You can read books about it.

Fucking crazy levels of corruption.

And, yeah, FIFA

was seen to be

part of that, like criminals.

And so they decided to create

a reform committee.

And 15 people, you get chosen.

Because of the work you'd done in Samoa,

sort of rebuilding that situation

from corruption?

Yeah, so little old Samoa,

tiny island in the Pacific,

200,000 people,

went through the same thing,

obviously on a way smaller scale,

but essentially it was the same

rebuild that was required.

Normalisation of FIFA.

FIFA normal again.

There's an excerpt from the FIFA

reforms committee report,

which Stephen has pulled out to quote,

to kind of put some context for those that aren't

super into kind of football cop politics.

What it meant.

Yeah.

I don't know if I'll read the whole thing.

It says, FIFA is currently going through

the worst crisis of its history.

The current crisis should also be considered

as a unique opportunity for FIFA to renew itself.

Thus, in order to restore confidence in FIFA,

significant modifications to its institutional structure

and operational processes are necessary

to prevent corruption, fraud, self-dealing,

and to make the organisation more transparent

and accountable.

So they, I guess, to set up this committee,

they're looking for people with integrity, right?

Yeah.

That is the key component.

And then you get selected to be in this select group.

And then, yeah, that was another pivotal moment.

It was like little old Samoan,

New Zealander going on up to Zurich

as part of these reforms.

And that was, yeah, I was the only woman in the room,

and I distinctly remember the very first meeting,

feeling super nervous and walking into this boardroom

to all men in suits.

And I remember also quite vividly,

I was wearing a skirt on that day,

skirt and heels, great pair of heels, actually,

and thinking, holy shit, I'm one of a kind in here.

Yeah.

Did you have the flower?

I had the flower.

Did you have the flower?

I had the flower.

Can you explain to us the significance of the flower

and why you wear it, particularly, again,

you've described it as a room full of suits.

For those that aren't, FIFA then was probably

a very traditional, well, it was, I was part of it.

It was a very traditional organisation,

all-way suits, very, very formal.

Yeah.

The sight of a woman with a flower in her hair

was maybe only a handful of people around the world

did it at the time.

Yeah.

Yeah, so I, it's a say.

We call it a say in Samoa,

and I wear it everywhere.

I go, actually, like everywhere.

And I do that because,

well, I explain to you guys the experiences I had in Samoa,

like that Special Olympics programme,

the passion that I felt for the game,

it all grew from my time in Samoa.

And honestly, I think, like,

Samoa, for me, has a very special place in my heart,

because it was a turning point for my life,

my career, my journey into football.

I met my husband there.

I understood my culture, my roots.

I became who I am today because of my time in Samoa,

and I never want to forget that.

And I never want to forget that it's what I learnt there

in that journey that put me on the path to where I am now.

And it doesn't matter how high I get

or what organisation I end up in,

I never want to forget that.

And that's why I always wear it.

It makes me feel connected to my purpose in the sport.

And sometimes it gets so intense.

I mean, football is the most political sport in the world.

The money, the interest, the commercialisation of it,

like, it's just so intense.

And sometimes it's easy to forget why we are there

and who we serve.

And for me, the flower is that.

It always reminds me of that boy in that village

whose life changed forever because of football.

And sometimes you just have to be reminded of that.

Yeah.

So I had it.

I had it on that first meeting.

Yeah.

And I felt it felt out of place, real out of place.

Does it feel normal now?

Now it's totally normal.

If I don't wear it, people are like, where is it?

Yeah.

Demanding to see it.

That's what we said.

Put it back in.

Okay, so this is where it starts to get really epic.

So 2015, you're in the Reform Committee.

2017, FIFA appoint a Chief Women's Football Officer

for the very first time.

And have I got this timeline right that in that Reform Committee,

you and Gianni, who's now FIFA president,

were working really closely together

and he was really impressed with the work you were doing

or you guys had a really good relationship.

And then was it his job to appoint you?

Yeah, so that was the first time I met him.

He was the secretary general

or the big boss of UEFA at that time.

So he was on the committee representing Europe.

I was there representing the Pacific region in Oceania

and because I was the only woman,

I advocated strongly for more women to come into football,

especially in leadership

and for women's football to be more resourced.

And we did all these things

and it was like a super serious full-on FIFA committee atmosphere.

So you had to table proposals,

you had to write and draft like reform regulations

and he's a lawyer, he has a legal background.

I'm like West Auckland Massey High School,

no university education,

I'm a street smart but maybe not, you know.

So I needed help.

I knew what I wanted, I knew what we needed

and why we needed it.

But to articulate it and put it into legal speak

and put it into actual reforms

that could be written into the constitution,

that's where he came in.

And he was actually in that committee,

every time I put something on the table or spoke up,

he was the first guy to back me and support me

in all those cases and he helped me to draft

what I needed to draft to get it approved

and now, in fact, what we drafted together

is enshrined in the statutes of FIFA.

Yeah, so it's also like a kind of a full circle moment

because I was able to get those things across the line.

He somehow became the president of FIFA,

like neither of us were even dreaming of anything

beyond what we were doing at that point in time in that committee.

But he eventually became the president.

I went back to my job in OFC, I was super happy there,

like working in Auckland and I had a dream job,

like working across the Pacific region,

expanding my impact.

Yeah, I was so happy.

And then I was in the office in Mount Smart Stadium

where the old OFC office was

and I got the Swiss number on my mobile phone

and I was like, ah, and I didn't...

Actually, the first time I saw it, I was kind of a bit busy

so I didn't answer it.

I just, like, blanked it and, you know,

I don't know what's that like.

That was Seamus' move for about five years.

No, he didn't blank.

Don't know what it's like to get blank by so long.

I don't worry about you the other way when you get a competition.

Yeah, so eventually I answered it

and it was, um...

Yeah, it was Switzerland

and that first call was actually from Matthias.

I don't know if you've met Matthias.

He's like the right-hand man to Gianni.

He's the right-hand man to the king to use a Game of Thrones analogy.

He works the lobby.

He's the guy that works the lobby.

It's incredible to see him at work.

He's the dude. Yeah.

He's like a savant, like, seriously.

Like, working with him is like...

He just operates at this other level.

He's on the Matrix level.

Anyway, it was him.

And, you know, I know now I know him well.

Then I didn't.

But he opens up the call like,

How's things?

What's happening?

And it's like five to ten minutes of small talk

and I'm like, what does this guy want?

Like, seriously.

And eventually he got to the point.

He asked me, yeah,

basically said that they wanted me to come.

They've set up a division

for women, dedicated to women,

as part of the reform

to drive forward

everything that we had written in to those reforms.

And they wanted me to come and lead it.

And I couldn't...

I actually didn't believe it.

I didn't believe it. Yeah.

But, of course, I was, like, blown away.

And I think I even told him I needed to get back to him.

Like, as if I was gonna say no.

But I did, yeah.

And then I hung up that phone call

and I just stood there for, I don't know,

it felt like ages.

And then I rang my mum straight away.

And as soon as she answered, I started crying

and I said, mum, I've just been offered this job.

I don't know what to do.

And mum, immediate mum response, immediate,

was let's pray.

And I got down on my knees in the office in OFC

and I was on the phone and my mum was praying

and I was crying and we prayed together.

And then, yeah, I accepted the job.

Did you have moments where you were talking to someone

maybe outside of the football circle

and you'd be talking about your new job?

They'd be like, oh, cool, what is it?

I'm kind of chief of women's football across the whole world.

Oh, yeah.

Sorry.

You're not doing banking anymore, are you?

No, I kind of moved on from there.

211 member associations.

Yeah, it's kind of my job.

That's an anecdote, right?

First day in the office, there's a world map behind you.

Yeah, because the world's a big place.

It's a fucking big place.

And when you go into FIFA and all the executive officers,

they have these giant world maps behind the desks.

And I remember on my first day,

I don't know if you've been to FIFA.

The building FIFA in Zurich is like a freaking bunker.

It's like this massively impressive state of the art,

incredible building on the hill in Zurich.

And it reminds me, even now when I drive in underground

into the bunker of this program I used to watch

when I was a kid called Maxwell Smart.

Get smart.

I can't remember the tune.

Yes!

And you have to...

And in the start of that program,

he goes through all these doors and all these things

and these secret things and blah, blah, blah.

That's what it's like when you enter into FIFA.

You enter down and the door's open

and you have to use your fingerprint to get into...

It's like this intense environment.

And that's what it was for me on my first day.

And I actually remember video calling my mum on my first day

when I was walking into the office there

because I was still in this moment of like,

oh, my God, I can't believe I'm working here.

And holding my phone up in front of me with mum on video call

as I was walking into the office and being like,

yeah, look at this mum.

And mum was on it at the same time,

like being in this moment of like, you know,

and we got to my office and my name was on the door

and I remember holding up the phone and like,

look at my name on the door and whatever.

So it was like this really cool moment.

And then I went in and I sat down

and all the people that were greeting me left

and I was like left in the office.

And there's like this massive football pitch to one side

with all the 211 flags of every country there,

like on the side of the pitch.

So you kind of see it and you're like, oh, fuck.

I just remember looking and looking for the Salmon flag

and spotting it and being like, okay,

then I sat in the chair and then I turned around

to this giant like world map that was behind the desk.

And I remember thinking, holy shit,

we are not in Samoa anymore.

Like it was just this, it just dawned on me

the magnitude of the job.

And I freaked out.

Like I just had this little moment sitting alone

in this office in Zurich in the middle of winter.

It was snowing.

I had the wrong shoes on.

It was a terrible start to the day.

And yeah, just looking at the world map

and thinking, oh my God, what have I gotten myself into?

It is quite daunting because it literally didn't exist before.

The job.

No.

Was the job description like a blank bit of paper?

Yes.

Like are you just making it up as you go along

in the initial stages?

Well, the job description was like basically two sentences,

which essentially said in a roundabout way,

you're in charge of women's football

all over the world, everywhere.

Hey, Gianni, you know that law degree?

I want it back, mate.

The job description is unreal.

It's unreal.

Yeah.

So it was, yeah, I just remember that first day

like just thinking, oh man,

have you heard of imposter syndrome?

I've written imposter syndrome on my nuts.

Yes.

Like right there.

That's exactly what it was.

Did you have that?

100%.

For how long?

I think it was the first, I don't know,

probably the first like couple of weeks

because it wasn't just starting a new job and a new company.

It was moving to Europe in the middle of winter

with freaking minus 10 degrees and snow fall outside.

Coming from West Auckland, living in Samoa,

you know, I'd never seen any of that.

Which was harder for you?

The transition from New Zealand to Samoa

or the transition from New Zealand to Switzerland?

New Zealand to Switzerland.

Yeah, 100%.

Hands down.

It was a culture shock.

Like people talk about culture shock.

That's the first time I actually understood what it meant.

Like I think New Zealanders have a certain way about them.

In fact, I know now New Zealanders have a way about them

because I've seen enough countries now

and met enough people to understand how New Zealanders are unique.

And I carried that with me to a country that didn't accept that.

How do you mean New Zealanders are unique?

What do you mean specifically?

I've learned now with this woman's world cup,

they call it Manakitanga.

And it's something that we live in the way that we interact.

It's lining up at Pakinsave in the checkout counter

to get your groceries

and having a full, deep and meaningful conversation

to the person behind you

that you've never met before in your life.

And you walk out of there knowing what the names of their kids

and whatever and blah, blah, blah.

It's that. I don't know how to articulate it

apart from explaining it like that.

That doesn't exist everywhere

and it certainly doesn't exist in Zurich, in Switzerland.

Like if you go up to someone with that same kind of feeling of knowing,

they look at you in disgust.

Like they feel offended.

And I only know now it's a cultural thing.

In the beginning I just thought everyone was assholes.

Like really.

But now I know it's like a cultural thing.

Like the Germans and that part of Switzerland,

they just culturally, they're very close off.

They have very, very tight knit groups that they grow up with,

like their friends from young and their family.

And that's their group and that's that.

And you, I mean to try and penetrate those friendship groups

and try and, it's just impossible.

So the way that we are like just yarning to anyone

and having a good chat and a laugh and whatever,

over there they get pissed at you if you try and do that.

If you're too familiar with them and you don't know them,

they get really offended.

And that was a shock for me in the beginning.

Because I just went in there super naive.

I didn't think there was any kind of cultural lessons

I needed to learn.

It was Europe.

I was like, okay, this is going to be fine.

But yeah, I learned really quickly.

And it was lonely in the beginning.

Because I moved alone.

By that, I mean my husband was working.

He's a quantity surveyor, Mark.

And he had a good job.

He was in a good company.

He had just started like in a new role.

He was doing awesome.

And I was like, wow.

Like just let's not uproot everything.

I'll go.

Let me like go out there and just like see what it's like.

Let's see if this thing is legit.

Let me just boss women's football in the world for a little bit

and just see if it's all that's cracked up to me.

No, but it was.

It was like this big unknown.

And I was really like, okay, let's not uproot our entire life

and like turn everything around.

Like I need to go see if it's real.

So the first year, I went alone.

Just me.

And combined with that culture shock,

the distance, the time difference,

and just getting into a new company,

like the first month was lonely.

It was fricking lonely and it was hard.

And it had me in that same position questioning again.

And then you combine it with this new world,

the world map, the 211 countries.

Women's football was also relatively new to me.

I mean, I've worked in football for a long time by then,

but I hadn't been specialized in women's football.

So I was also having to learn a whole bunch of stuff

about the women's game as well.

And I felt like an imposter.

Like really, I really did.

Was there a moment when that subsided?

Or was there a key part or a trip or anything that you can think

like you have pinpointed in your Samoan journey

where the penny dropped?

Yeah, yeah.

I would say it's a collection of moments,

but the thing that gave me confidence,

which I realized really quickly,

is that I had a leg up on everyone there

because I had been in a federation.

I had rebuilt the sport of football from scratch

in a country.

I had been exposed to football in a developing setting

with challenges in front of it.

And the people I was working with, awesome people,

but many of them had never even been into one of our member countries

and visited them.

And I realized when we were having these conversations,

we were going into meetings,

and I was trying to get my head around it

and develop a strategy quite quickly

that actually little old Samoa and what I learned then and there

and the lessons that I still carry with me now

gave me a massive leg up on all of those people.

And I was able to contribute to the conversations

and build, in fact, the entire global strategy

to grow women's football

and those experiences in the Pacific.

Which, as a sentence, is nuts,

but in practicality, 211 countries,

like South Sudan and USA,

you couldn't get more polar opposite

in terms of women's football experiences, I imagine.

First, the newest country in the world

and the powerhouse of women's football.

And you've got to bridge the gap between those two.

Yeah, that's a daunting task.

But I remember the first session,

the first thing we had to do, which we were tasked with doing,

which is also like a nuts moment,

was like, okay, we're here now.

We've got this new division.

We've reformed the organization.

We have all this constitutional change.

We need to come up with a global strategy for women's football.

I was like, okay.

Here's your first task.

Easy.

Fuck man, I was like, what?

Okay.

And we, in the bunker,

the thing about FIFA,

this office in Zurich is like,

there's all these Swiss restrictions around the building.

So it's six levels, right?

There are two levels that are above the ground,

and there are four levels below the ground.

So we're in, I call it minus three,

where they have all these meeting rooms there.

And I went down there with my team,

and we spent a full day just like,

with what do you call those?

Sticky notes, post-it notes, post-it notes.

Just writing, like, all the challenges,

the reality, what it means.

And I remember, like, we must have been down there for,

I don't know, like eight hours.

We had lunch delivered and everything.

And the whole entire wall of this entire fucking thing

was just covered in multicolored post-it notes.

And this was another moment.

And the team were exhausted and whatever,

and I was like, that's fine, you know,

we'll set it up for tomorrow and whatever.

And so they all left, and I remember sitting down

and looking at all the post-it notes and being like,

holy shit.

This is, what is this?

But that was literally the start of it,

and we were able to, you know,

and eventually that room full of post-it notes

and, you know, obviously the experience of the room

combined with visits to many different countries,

conversations, meetings and everything,

we were able to develop this strategy.

And that's carried me through to today, yeah.

How did your nerves compare

Match Day Minus One, this World Cup,

versus Match Day Minus One, 2019 World Cup?

Because that was your first major event, right?

Yeah.

It was different, because in this World Cup,

I've been involved from the get-go,

like the bidding, the selection of the host countries,

like the first initial meetings,

like everything from A to Z have been in it.

Whereas in 2019, the structure was slightly different.

We had like a whole events delivery kind of arm

that were in charge of delivering the event.

So I was in charge of what we call the product,

the strategy, like setting the tone, the brand,

the overall kind of product,

but the delivery, I just washed my hands of it,

handed it over and it was like a whole other area

that was in charge of it.

Whereas this one, I'm it from A to Z,

the product, the strategy, the brand, all of it,

the whole building of it, the expansion to 32 teams,

everything, as well as physically delivering it,

meetings, the logistics, the operations of it.

So yeah, this one was way more intense.

And just the fact that it's here, it's home,

like I feel a lot of pressure.

And the fact you've smashed it.

That's got to be amazing!

This is just like the best episode ever.

Perks of the job, meeting Maradona?

Yeah.

You met Maradona?

I met Maradona several times.

I actually played football with him.

No.

I swear to God.

We have this Congress football tournament

where the delegates from the 211 countries,

they get to play like small-sided games

with some FIFA legends against each other.

So it's like Oceania versus Africa versus Europe

and the FIFA team and blah, blah, blah.

And Maradona was one of the legends

who was involved in that tournament.

He wasn't on my team.

I played against him.

But that was a moment where I just remember

going out onto the field, seven aside,

and Maradona, I mean, he was old by then.

His knee was heavily strapped and whatever,

but man, he still had the magic.

He still had the magic.

And I just remember thinking,

who the fuck can say

that they have played a game of football

with Maradona?

Who can say a lot of the things you've said?

Who can say that?

Yeah, it's an incredible body of work, really,

when you put it down.

And also, like, it's really, again,

putting the pieces of the puzzle together,

it's really easy to see why you are successful

because you've seen it from ground zero

right the way through.

I imagine, though, as well, it's not without its challenges

because we talk about women's rights,

we talk about women's football,

we talk about discrimination, we talk about racism.

Your job will take you to places where access

and those things still don't exist

and are still challenging

and are still, I guess, open secrets.

Are there challenging moments in the role, as well,

where you feel like as much as you're trying

to break the door down, the door staying locked?

Yeah, yeah, big time, yeah.

But I feel like I've learned enough

to know how far to push it.

And that's a fine art and a skill, actually,

to know the environment enough to understand

that this is the limit.

Don't push past here

because that's not going to benefit anyone.

But, yeah, there's hard moments, as well.

I mean, even in the build-up to this woman's World Cup,

you know, there are some, I would call them scandals,

but a few moments that were tough to deal with,

there was some stuff about Saudi, Visit Saudi,

who is a FIFA sponsor.

They sponsored the World Cup in Qatar.

They're a sponsor for the Club World Cup, as well.

There were some talks about them coming on board

for women's football, as well.

And here in New Zealand and Australia,

people were absolutely up in arms about that.

You know, just because of, I guess, the human rights stuff

that's happening in Saudi, that was tough

because I've seen a part of Saudi through football,

which is totally different.

Like, we've been working with women in Saudi Arabia

for, like, three years now,

and they've stood up the first ever women's league there.

They had their first ever national team game.

So I have this different lens on it

because of the work that we've been doing through football.

And it was quite hard for me to deal with some of the rhetoric

around, you know, how could FIFA do this?

How could you be talking to a partner like this?

I got a lot of DMs, like real negative ones.

Some of them quite abusive, as well,

which you get used to as a public kind of person.

But, yeah, there are definitely challenging moments.

And we got through that, and it's fine.

But, yeah, it's never easy, let's say.

Where do you go from boss of women's football across the world?

Like, what is the next?

I mean, there will be a time when you move on,

but, like, is the jump precedent?

Oh, dude.

I didn't mean to ask that question, but, like...

Honestly, I don't know.

Like, I can't...

What has worked for me until today

is not planning anything.

Like, everything that has happened on this path,

because I get this question all the time.

How did you get here? How did you get to this position?

Cross that one off before we ask.

I feel like we've done two hours on this.

No, but you see, it's like there's no, like, one answer to that.

It's like, actually, like, you know,

it just happened that the girl in my rugby team was working

at the bank, and I got a job there.

It just happened that I was in Samoa when that job was advertised.

You know, it just happened that I was in the role in Oceania

when the FIFA corruption happened.

It just happened I was the only woman in that reform committee.

You know, it wasn't...

I couldn't have planned it the way that it happened.

So I often get this question, like, what is next after this?

And I think...

I don't know.

I think there's a path for me, you know?

I'm a Christian.

The influence of my mum is really strong on me.

She reminds me every time I see her that I need to pray.

And I believe that my path is already laid out.

So I don't think about what's next.

I never have.

And whatever has planned, you know,

I know that God has already set it up.

Yeah.

Through your journey, you also became a mum to Matisse.

How did that impact your work-life balance?

Because I imagine the demands on you in a professional capacity are huge.

And then you bring a life into the world.

Oh, man.

And you've got competing agendas.

Yeah.

And maybe as a follow-on to that, the role of Mark, I guess,

in kind of terms of balancing all of that out.

Yeah.

I had quite a...

Let's say a stressful pregnancy.

Like thinking about that,

just thinking about what it would mean for me in my position,

heading into a World Cup,

on the other side of the planet,

and how I was going to manage being a mum within that.

And I'm really, honestly,

blessed.

It sounds like hashtag blessed, like, you know,

but really, Mark has just played a role in my journey that,

without it, I wouldn't be where I am today.

Not just with the baby and what he's doing now,

but the way he has supported me in my career,

coming to Switzerland with me, you know,

giving up his own career, moving.

He spent 12 months learning German

to get a job and integrate into Swiss life.

You know, and he, while I was pregnant,

just came up to me one day, totally out of the blue,

and said,

I want to resign.

I'm going to look after the baby full-time.

And I kind of couldn't believe it when he was telling me that,

but obviously I was so grateful.

So from the moment that Matisse was born,

yeah, they've been with me.

I took my maternity leave.

That was our special time together as a family.

It was amazing.

Mum flew over from New Zealand.

She was there when the baby was born.

He was born during COVID.

Oh, God.

Mark got COVID in the week of my due date.

Yeah, you couldn't have...

Honestly, it was, yeah.

So that was tough.

Basically, Mark wasn't allowed to come in

because he had COVID, and I had to, yeah.

So he eventually, we managed to negotiate

that he was there in the operating theatre

when I gave birth,

and he was in full, like, PPE, head to toe, mask, everything.

But he wasn't allowed to stay with me.

He wasn't allowed to, yeah, come into the hospital room

and visit me.

It was like a...

It was a scary but special

because it meant that those first six days of Matisse's life

was just us.

And, man, that was, I would say,

the most special and important moment of my life,

like, spending that time with my newborn son

and just understanding what it means to be a mum.

And it eclipses every fucking thing that I've talked about.

Everything I've done in my career,

everything that I've achieved

is totally eclipsed by having a son.

Like, it's just unbelievable, indescribable.

I don't know.

Does FIFA have a crush?

Nah, I'm advocating.

I'm advocating.

You know what?

It is actually like that.

Like, I'm in the management board of FIFA.

Okay, so I have this kind of privileged position.

In FIFA, the management board, we all have our own offices.

Like, we can close the door.

We have our own office with a desk and meeting table and blah, blah, blah, whatever.

Everyone else in the organisation has to share an office.

It's like three or four or six to an office or whatever.

When I returned from maternity leave, I had to pump.

I had to pump milk every day while I was away from the baby

to, you know, keep the supply going

and to be able to feed them the next day.

So I would lock the doors in my office.

I had a little sign which I put up to say pumping.

It's kind of a joke, yeah.

Boom! Boom! Boom!

Exactly.

It's like being milked like a cow.

I swear to God, anyway.

The places where I have been sitting pumping milk.

Oh, my God, I can't even tell you.

Airports, aeroplanes,

prayer rooms and stadiums and Qatar at the World Cup.

I've been pumping milk in the weirdest locations

in the first, like, six months, honestly.

But anyway, the point of the story was

it dawned on me one day while I was sitting there pumping

with my doors locked and, like, in my office

in that comfortable environment, I was like,

what do all the other ladies do?

I'm not the only mum here.

Like, what are the others doing that don't have their own private office?

So I went and spoke to a couple of the other mums.

I was like, where do you pump?

Like, how do you do it?

Oh, we go to the toilet.

Oh, we find an empty meeting room and da-da-da-da.

I was like, what the fuck?

That's not good enough. Like, why?

So I contacted HR and I was like,

why don't we have rooms where mums can breastfeed

and express their milk?

And now every office in FIFA has a dedicated

breastfeeding room with a fridge

and a comfortable couch in a private area

where mums can go and express and pump their milk.

How good is that? That's power used, right?

Yeah, let's get that shit out of this.

It's true, though.

Yeah.

In Qatar, and this was the other thing,

it's not lost on me that I'm in this kind of very

visible position.

And it's hard to be a working mum in football,

especially in Switzerland.

The way that the Swiss system is set up

where FIFA is based,

it's not friendly towards working mothers.

Like, even in primary school,

for the two hours or one hour and a half of lunchtime,

parents have to go pick their kids up from school

and take them home for lunch.

So the kids don't stay at school.

So it's real hard to be a working mum

because someone in the middle of their day

has to go away from the office,

the mum or the dad or whoever,

go pick up the kids,

bring them home to feed them lunch.

So the whole system in Switzerland

is set up to make it real hard to be a working mum.

And in football, it's even harder

because of the nature of what we do,

especially if you're involved in tournaments

and you're travelling and whatever.

So in Qatar, like, I came back to work

in September and the World Cup in Qatar

was kicking off in November.

And Mark and Matisse came with me

because I was still breastfeeding.

And every single match that I went to,

at every stadium in Qatar,

I took the baby with my baby bag

and I was breastfeeding and expressing

and I was in the VIP Tribune

with my baby and husband there

because I knew that me being visible,

being the baby, being seen to have the baby

and still be operating in my capacity and my job

was really, like, really important for me.

Yeah.

That's right, I reckon this is one of the most

epic episodes we've done.

We've covered so much ground there.

Seriously, it's so impressive

and you articulate and tell your story so well

and it's full of empathy and authenticity

and it's just, man, it's been so cool

and we're so grateful of you giving us your time

because we know this is the longest interview you've done

and we know how valuable your time is.

You've got the whole woman's world of football to look after.

But thank you for coming in.

Thank you for stopping by and sharing this.

People are going to get so much out of this

and I just really appreciate it.

Thank you so much.

Thank you, man.

Me and Seamus go way back.

Yeah, we've got some yarns and some stories

and I'm so proud of you and what you've achieved,

both of you guys, and I've loved this.

Honestly, I feel more relaxed sitting here

right now talking to you guys

than I have for the last six months.

It's just been a lot of tense,

pressure, stress, anticipation.

And I feel so chilled now.

Yeah, thank you for this.

Like, this has been such a valuable moment for me,

just talking to you guys.

Yeah.

That's so cool.

Shay, you got an outro?

Yeah, I'm going to battle through this, I think,

because nothing personally makes me proud

in seeing someone from the Pacific succeeding on the world stage.

And you combine that and the football element,

which to me personally was my life for 10 years.

And it's incredible to see what you are doing now,

but also it's really easy to understand how you do it

and why you do it because of your journey.

And there's so much power in New Zealand,

in the Pacific, in our ability.

The world can learn a shit ton from our people.

100%.

And I was amazed,

and I'm going to steal words from one of your staff.

I'm not going to tell you who it is,

but their summary of who you are

is exactly my kind of take on who you are

and hopefully what's come through in this episode.

So these are their words.

From my personal point,

and having worked closely with Sarai

over a number of years,

I can only tell you positives.

She is authentic, loves what she does,

cares about others, is smart,

and has absolutely no attitude.

Furthermore, she has an amazing leadership style

with a good sense to feel people.

Despite her top position in a global organization

and all the FIFA glamour,

she never forgets about the people on the ground

and how the power of football can be the voice

for the ones with less opportunities and access to the game.

To me, Sarai is more a friend than a boss.

Aw.

Oh, shit.

Okay, get me the tissues again.

All the best for the remainder of the World Cup.

It's going to be epic

and you deserve an amazing holiday

and hopefully you enjoy that pay-per-view in Sydney

and seeing your big brother go to work

with some other Kiwis

that are doing amazing things on the world stage.

Can't wait.

It's going to be amazing.

Thank you so much, you guys.

Cheers, Sarai.

Epic.

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Machine-generated transcript that may contain inaccuracies.