Mamamia Out Loud: Revisiting Our Conversation About Matthew Perry’s Memoir

Corn ready meals are the go-to for a convenient time-saving dinner or lunch.

They're meat-free, delish and good for you.

With yummy options like spaghetti bolognese, Thai-style green curry and rice

and butter chicken-style curry and rice, the hardest part is which one to choose.

Try corn meat-free ready meals for an easy lunch or quick dinner tonight.

Available in the freezer at Woolworths and leading independent retailers.

You're listening to a Mamma Mia podcast.

Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters that this podcast is recorded on.

Hey out louders, it's Mia.

With the sad news breaking over the weekend that Matthew Perry has died

We wanted to revisit an episode that we did in November last year.

It was originally for subscribers where Holly and Jesse and I spoke about his memoir.

It came out almost exactly a year ago and it was called Friends, Lovers and the Big Terrible Thing.

And it was about his struggle with addiction throughout his life.

It was a really interesting book. It was not the usual celebrity memoir.

It was very raw. It was very bleak in many parts.

And it was incredibly honest about the reality of struggling with addiction.

Here's the episode.

Of course we'll be talking about this story tomorrow on The Regular Show with Claire, Holly and I.

And if you want to know more about this story as it's unfolding

we'll put a link in the show notes because we've got all the coverage on Mamma Mia.

Friends, well yes friends, how ironic that I'm starting this episode with that word

because Matthew Perry is an actor and a screenwriter most known for his role and friends as Chandler being.

Did you guys both watch Friends?

Yeah, I did. Different times in my life, but yes I did.

I was never like a die-hard watch every episode, think it's the funniest show ever made in person.

It's like a comfort watch. It gives me joy if it's on.

It's also back. My kids friends watch it, like the tweens. They watch it, which I find very weird.

But anyway.

Yeah, my kids have watched it as well. It came back as a kind of nostalgia.

A bit like maybe else watching The Brady Bunch.

Matthew Perry is the first of the friends cast to have written a memoir

and it's called Friends Lovers and The Big Terrible Thing and that big terrible thing is about addiction.

All I want to do is talk about this book. I'm so desperate to talk about it.

In the press release it says,

I saw some people posting about this online and I thought,

just another celebrity memoir, like I rolled my eyes at it.

Yeah, I know.

I think it's going to be something that was ghostwritten by someone.

It's got three tidbits about friends and ultimately it's some naval gazing.

Like I was very, very dismissive of it.

Same.

And then I saw bits and pieces being released and I went,

oh, this actually sounds quite profound.

That's one of the first things about this book that I want to say is like it has no business being as raw as it is, right?

Like he does not paint himself in a very favorable light in this book.

It's not one of those memoirs that is, you know, just a sort of glossy version of yourself.

He doesn't come off particularly well in it at all.

Does he have much self-awareness in that way?

I think he does. I think he's just being very, very honest.

Because the bit that I saw, I've kind of seen bits and pieces and this isn't about addiction,

but it's the gossip that's sort of been released about how he had a big crush on Jennifer Aniston.

And then they started friends and he was like, I don't understand a chance.

He'd asked her out before they got cast on the show.

They'd sort of known each other in sort of Hollywood circles.

Yeah.

And she had politely declined his invitation to go on a date.

And then he was still pretty smitten with her through the thing.

If you're looking for friends gossip, you'll be disappointed because there's not really in there.

I wish there was more and I want to get to that in a second.

But the book opens with a bang.

He's in rehab.

I think it's either just before COVID or during COVID.

He's in yet another rehab.

And one of the things he says is that he's spent, I think $7 million on rehab.

He's been to rehab like 17 times.

And what drugs?

Opioids.

Opioids.

So particularly something called Vicodin, which he was originally prescribed for a back injury

and which he very quickly got addicted to.

And America is in the grip of a terrible opioid crisis.

It's the biggest killer.

But also alcohol, had alcohol for the first time at 14, lay on the grass.

His best friends were like puking around him.

He was surrounded by vomit.

But he remember looking up in the sky and just going, never felt so good.

Because he was carrying around a huge amount of anxiety.

His parents split up when he was a little kid.

Nothing terrible happened to him.

But he had pretty standard anxiety.

And for him, alcohol took that away.

And also he says the disease of addiction.

Like he talked about the distinction between being a partier,

where you can just go really hard and being an addict.

Where the partier, like he said later on in his career,

he did this movie with Bruce Willis and Bruce Willis, massive partier.

Like Matthew Perry was in awe of him because Bruce Willis was the man.

This was in the early 2000s.

And he said, the thing with Bruce Willis though,

is that he could go so hard all through the night, party, party, party.

And they were making this movie and he would just have a whole floor of a hotel

and he would install a disco ball and it would just be party central all through the night.

But at the end of the film, he would stop.

Or at the end of the night, he would stop.

Matthew Perry just couldn't.

And he talked about, you know, needing to get 55 Vicod in a day.

And this is a prescription drug.

So he said every morning I'd wake up and have to do the math

of trying to get through all these various illegal doctors and drug dealers.

And this was when he was at the height of his career.

But the book starts when he's in another one of these rehabs.

He's with his assistant and his colon explodes basically.

He's in so much pain, they don't want to let him leave

because they think he's just faking it to try to get drugs.

Which he admits he has done many times in many rehabs.

His assistant just gets him out of there.

They have to practically run these people over.

The rehab people who are trying to block his car.

He gets to the hospital. He's writhing around on the floor in pain.

His colon explodes.

Breathing tubes put in, which he immediately vomits into.

He said he hadn't been able to go to the toilet for 10 days.

He vomits into it.

So it's sort of like Elvis, right?

Oh, it's hell.

And so he's just like in a coma for two weeks,

colostomy back.

Like it goes on and on and on.

That's how it starts.

Wow.

There's a fine art to writing a celebrity memoir, right?

And it'll be very interesting to see how Prince Harry handles this in January.

But which stories are your stories?

And which stories are other people's stories, right?

So he talks about the friends cast and stuff broadly,

but there's no dirt on any of them in there, right?

Because all the dirt is about him and himself.

But one of the things that is so interesting about it to me

is the lessons about fame.

Because he says about that incident,

about the time he nearly died, which is only recent.

He says that fame has saved his life quite a few times

because doctors have probably gone above and beyond

to try and save him in his various health crises

because they're like, Matthew Perry is not dying on this table.

But then also sometimes it hinders him

because some hospitals won't even take him

because they're like, we're not having Matthew Perry dying on this table.

So it shows this amazing insight into how celebrities are managed.

Like when he's going to a hospital,

his assistants will call ahead and say,

high profile coming in, high profile coming in,

and there's a whole different protocol for them

than there is for ordinary people in LA.

But also what's really interesting about it

is he says that when he was at the beginning of his career,

he and his group of mates, all they wanted was to be famous.

He talks about getting down on his knees

and praying to God for fame.

Like, I want to be famous more than anything else in the world.

And then of course, because we've all heard this story a million times,

do we believe it? I'm not sure.

He gets famous and it solves absolutely nothing for him

because his addiction is so deep.

Do you think that if he had never become famous,

if he'd never become rich,

then the struggles with addiction wouldn't have happened

or do you think that they were inevitable?

He was going to be an addict either way, I think.

For me, it is a very good illustration

of how addiction is truly a disease

because there's no sense, there's no logic,

there's no rhyme or reason, as Mia said,

that childhood was turbulent, but no more so than many.

But he ended up entirely helpless in the face of this thing

that other people can walk away from

or get successful treatment for.

He talks about how his dad just gave up drinking

because he was also a problem drinker.

Even now, he can't.

Like, he's still only a couple of years,

well, not even, I don't think.

Like, still wrestling with addiction all the time.

I was watching some of the interviews that he did to promote the book

and the interviewer makes the point in a voiceover

in the introduction that you're not allowed to ask an addict

how long they've been sober for.

Why?

Because that's very private.

And if they want to volunteer that to you, they can.

But you should never ask.

Oh.

You should never say when was the last time you used

or when was the last time you had a drink.

Do we know if he currently is using?

I would say he has a lot of slips.

Like, right up to the end of the book,

which goes up to almost current time.

Yes.

Which is one of the things that's so fascinating about this

because often people write these kind of addiction memoirs

10 years later, 20 years later, and it's all in the past.

But he talks very openly about the fact his life is pretty miserable.

That he's very lonely.

He lives in these beautiful homes with amazing views,

but only with people who he pays to be his friends, basically.

His assistant is sober living coach.

Like, I find it so fascinating that insight into

sober living coaches and all the way all different rehabs work,

it's absolutely fascinating to see what goes into it.

Ask anyone who's been separated.

It's rarely ever simple.

But there is help available.

Simple separation is a fast and affordable end-to-end

legal separation option for couples looking to separate

amicably for a fixed fee.

They use mediation and legal advice to help couples

with their property settlement, children's arrangements,

divorce applications, and more.

They're advocates for low-conflict, affordable separation alternatives

that prioritise family's wellbeing without going to court

or breaking the bank.

Separate amicably and quickly at a fraction of the cost of legal fees

with simple separation.

Did he ever get married or have kids or anything?

No.

And he talks about the episode when Chandler and Monica get married.

Like, I thought this was going to be the most difficult thing

I ever had to do.

But when I saw you walking down that aisle,

I realised how simple it was.

I love you.

He said he was in rehab then,

and he was driven by a sober escort in a van to the set,

did his lines, he had a drip in his arm,

and was driven back to rehab at the end of it.

And what it made me think is about the whole time

that they were all on this show, which was 10 years,

and they were at the top of their game,

and he talks about early on, I think it was at the end of the second

or third season when it was already a massive hit,

but some of them were more famous than others.

They each had certain seasons where they were the star.

It just happened.

At the end of this particular season, David Schwimmer had all the power.

I think it was at the end of season one or season two.

And David Schwimmer came to them all and said,

hey, I think we should negotiate as a group

when we're renegotiating.

Matthew Perry said he didn't have to do that,

but he said because he did that,

by the end they were getting $1.3 million US,

so that's like more than $2 million Australian per episode.

And he said, but the last season was shortened,

and the reason it ended is because Jennifer Aniston

didn't want to do it anymore, and they'd all made this deal

if one of us goes, all of us goes.

And you got the sense, even though he didn't say it,

that some of them were still wanted to get the money.

Jennifer Aniston obviously was going to have a big career in movies,

even though none of her movies has done very well.

She had a level of fame that none of the rest of them had,

but it was decided that because she wanted to do it,

and also this season was shorter,

he said we were all arguing for a shorter season,

which is so insane given that we were all making more money

than we would ever make again.

Lisa Kujo actually writes the forward to the book,

and she writes this,

how's Matthew Perry doing?

Over the many years since I was first asked,

it's been at different times the most asked question for me.

I understand why so many people asked it.

They love Matthew, and they want him to be okay, me too.

But I always bristled at that question from the press,

because I couldn't say what I wanted to say,

which is it's his story to tell,

and I'm not authorized to tell it really, am I?

I would have wanted to go on to say,

this is very intimate personal stuff,

and if you don't hear it from the actual person,

it is to my mind gossip,

and I'm not gossiping about Matthew with you.

What it made me think whole is that

his addiction must have had a really big shadow

over that whole 10 years of that show.

It would have been so stressful for all of them,

because he talks about, I mean anyone who's watched Friends knows this,

it became almost a cruel joke about like,

is Matthew Perry thin or fat in this season?

Like in very cruel terms, that's the language used.

And he talks about it, and he says,

if I was skinny, it's because I was on pain pills.

If I was bigger, it's because I was on booze.

And he one time fell asleep on set,

and Matt LeBlanc was the one who had to wake him up.

They must have been thinking all the time,

is he going to make it today?

Is he going to get there today?

It must have been a big deal.

He was also doing movies at the time,

because they were all trying to do movies,

and he kept talking about doing a geographic

where he said he would just move location,

like buy another house.

That idea of if I move location or I'm somewhere different

then my problems will go away.

Jennifer Aniston had come into his dressing room

and said, we know you're drinking.

He said the use of the word we just crushed him,

because he said he thought he was hiding it so well.

So he went and did this movie.

He said to his agent, get me out of here,

I just need a movie.

So he was doing a movie called Serving Sarah,

or Serving Sarah.

Never heard of it.

My job sucks. Got no future.

Got no benefits.

What are you, some kind of machinist?

You trying to say masochist?

But I always have great luck with women.

Well, almost always.

Nice.

That's me, Joe, the process server.

You're hereby served to appear as a witness

in the trial of Freddie Markuzzo.

I've got an important assignment out of Texas.

Don't mess this up.

Elizabeth Hurley was in it.

It was her first sort of big movie,

and in the middle of it he got so unwell

they had to close down production and he had to go to rehab.

It was very public.

Everybody knew, and it was the first time

a big celebrity had publicly gone to rehab.

I mean, of course it had happened a million times,

but because I think he'd crashed his car

on the way to rehab, something had happened.

Everybody knew, and the movie was shut down

because he had to go to rehab.

So when he came back to the set,

he said they were doing a table read,

and it was the beginning of a new season,

and to break the ice, the executive producer was like,

so let's maybe go around and say what we did

over our summer vacation.

And he said he spoke up and went,

well, I'll go first.

And he said it broke the tension,

and everyone started laughing because, yeah,

he'd been to rehab and everybody knew.

You also just get the sense that ever since friends,

and this must be true for all of them

at different ways and at different levels,

he has been searching for respect for,

you know, he talks about like almost begging

for roles in high profile TV series

that he wanted just to, and he wrote plays,

and he did like just trying to get gigs

that would give him the professional respect he wanted,

and it made you kind of realize that he walked away

from that time with more money than God,

never having to work again, literally,

but no purpose in his life, which is just so sad.

Interesting and sad, and when we do think about,

I mean, not that I'm suggesting these are the people

in the world who need all that sympathy.

He paints this really honest, lonely, brutal picture

of being this man child.

It's the worst and so different to what you imagine

that level of fame and wealth would be like,

and it's not the first addiction memoir that I've read.

You want to shake him and go,

don't, like just the bad choice after bad choice

because of his addiction, where you're just like,

but you've got your sobriety, just don't,

and he would have like two years of sobriety

or like one year, and then did you watch the reunion?

The test is ready.

Rachel wrote Ross a letter and demanded he read it

before they got back together.

How many pages was that letter?

18 pages.

18 pages.

Front and back.

Front and back is correct.

Wait, wait, do it one more time.

Oh, my God.

Here we go.

Where's the tissue batch?

The cost of friends.

So what had happened, like he said,

I would be able to get sober,

but then something would happen,

like something good or something bad,

and it would fuck with me.

And because he's completely destroyed his body,

and he also gave himself emphysema,

because he smokes 60 cigarettes a day,

so addicted to nicotine.

He was sober and he was like just trying to be okay,

and he bit into like a piece of toast with peanut butter

and all his front teeth fell out.

Then he had to get all his teeth removed

and then put back in.

And you can imagine the pain and the dental surgery

and everything.

So then what do you do?

You needed painkillers.

But how do you do it?

And so he said, because he was in such a mess

when he did that reunion,

because at the time people said,

oh no, he's had dental surgery

and everyone kind of rolled their eyes

and went, yeah, sure.

But he actually had.

That wasn't the only reason.

Clearly, his brain is not quite there.

I thought that recently.

Macklemore has come out and talked about his relapse

and his addiction to exactly the same thing,

like opioids.

And then there was a picture that he put on Instagram

of him after getting knee surgery.

And my first thought was,

that is a very different experience to you

than it is for anyone else.

Because the only way you can get through it

is through painkillers.

And how do you...

There are ways.

So Matthew Perry was like,

there are ways of doing it, of course.

But part of it is that you can't ever have the bottle

in your hand.

You can't be responsible for administering

the pain medication.

Before we go, Mia,

why do you think he has written

such a seringly honest memoir?

Because really,

if you were ever thinking of hiring Matthew Perry,

I would read this and I would go,

no, I'm not going to do that.

Obviously, it's going to be a big seller

and make him a lot of money.

But it probably would have been that anyway

if he'd just told funny stories about friends.

So what do you think the strategy is for this

like blisteringly honest take?

He talks about looking for his purpose

and the fact that it was very confronting

for him on the show

that Chandler was hitting

all these milestones that he had never himself hit

like getting married and having kids

and talks a lot about relationships.

And I mean, he dated Julia Roberts.

He broke up with Julia Roberts.

He talked about being so scared of abandonment

that he broke up with every woman

that he was ever with, even Julia Roberts,

because he was so scared that she would leave him.

He talks so longingly about the relationships

that he fucked up

and wanting to find a person

and wanting to have kids.

He also talks about the times in his life

when he's felt best

have been when he's been helping other people

with addiction.

He feels that that is his higher calling

and he talks about, you know,

not finding God, but a lot of that

is about recognizing that there's a higher power involved

and that you've got no control over this.

And then it's all about helping other people

through addiction.

And I feel like he's known for so long.

He's been a laughing stock in Hollywood

and everyone knew he was an addict

and then the Friends reunion

and everybody else in the cast,

except for him and Jennifer Aniston,

have become parents.

Isn't that interesting?

I think he needed to reclaim the narrative.

It's hard to have empathy

when you've never heard the story

from his own perspective

like what Lisa Kudrow said was so true.

It's like you become rumors

and it becomes a punchline.

Then he turns up and people are analyzing his face

and his speech and to hear that

and then, yeah, his own kind of pain

I think will reframe how people see him.

Yeah, highly recommend this book.

You listened to it on Audible, didn't you, Hull?

I did and I loved listening to it.

His voice.

It's like listening to a long podcast.

I'm obsessed.

I really respect the honesty

and it's interesting Jesse that you said empathy.

It's so true.

He talks about how hard his life has been

which seems like a ridiculous thing

for a multi-millionaire Hollywood star to say,

but you just have empathy for people

who have addiction in their families.

Life is just so frickin' hard for him.

And for those who love him.

Do you shy away from wearing light-coloured pants?

Do you find yourself racing to the bathroom all day?

Do you cancel social plans?

You're not alone.

Three and four women have experienced heavy periods

and for 28% of those,

their period is either short or short.

You're not alone.

Three and four women have experienced heavy periods

and for 28% of those,

their period is either often or always heavy.

Heavy periods can have a big impact

on quality of life for many women,

whether it's missing out on family activities,

sport, travel, or even impacting you at work.

The good news is that help is available

and you don't have to compromise on life.

There are a number of treatment options available

that you can ask your GP about.

It's time to reclaim your life

and not be held back by your period.

It's time to start living comfortably.

Visit the Live Comfortably website for more information

and treatment options for heavy periods.

Always seek the advice of a healthcare practitioner.

Machine-generated transcript that may contain inaccuracies.