Mamamia Out Loud: Nicole Kidman & The Silliest Fight On Instagram

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Mamma Mia Out Loud!

Hello and welcome to Mamma Mia Out Loud.

It's what women are actually talking about on Wednesday the 13th of September.

I'm Holly Wainwright.

I'm Mia Friedman.

And I'm Claire Steedon.

And on the show today, Amy Schumer, Nicole Kidman,

and the silliest fight on the internet right now.

Plus, do you sort of emails your sincerely or slay all day?

I just sound silly just saying those words.

What the hell is formal language in 2023?

And mothers and daughters posing in underwear together.

Melby's doing it and so is Heidi Klum.

And I would like it to stop, please.

So would Mia, but for different reasons.

But first, Mia Friedman.

In case you missed it,

the Taylor Swift Reporter is about to be a real job title.

USA Today in the Network's newspaper, The Tennessean,

are looking for a uniquely skilled journalist for a new role, Taylor Swift Reporter.

The job description reads like this,

Swift's fan base has grown to unprecedented heights

and so has the significance of her music and growing legacy.

We are looking for an energetic writer, photographer and social media pro

who can quench an undeniable thirst for all things Taylor Swift

with a steady stream of content across multiple platforms.

The reporter will be responsible for reporting on the singer's most significant moments,

including the remaining eras to her shows

and will be required to travel internationally for the role.

The job requires at least five years of journalism experience.

Swifties, calm down.

And applicants will be asked to send in a one to two page resume and a video cover letter.

And I think it's really important that this role is filled with the right candidate

and I think it should be me.

We're ahead of the curve because we've already got a Taylor Swift reporter out loud.

I think this acknowledges there's never been a pop star like this.

Like her eras tour, it's pretty much been compulsory for every girl and woman aged about 10 to 60

in America to go and see this tour.

By the end of it, she will have grossed, I think, $1.3 billion

and she's grossing about $13 million US each night.

Is this your job interview?

Are you doing your job interview now?

She's showing off her knowledge.

Because you've already got the job.

You don't need to keep auditioning for the job.

She moves economic mountains and she's iconic and I would think I'd be good at it.

We did talk last week about how you were in a bit of a funny place

and how your solution to burnout is kind of starting a new phase.

I'm moving to Tennessee.

Yeah! Oh my gosh, imagine!

Amy Schumer has been accused of bullying Nicole Kidman on the Internet.

This is the story nobody saw coming this week.

And please brace yourselves for the very silliest fight on the Internet.

This all started because the celebrities have all been attending the US Open Finals in LA over the last few days.

Is this because they're all on strike and they haven't got any red carpets to walk?

Correct, yes.

And also they're bored.

They're underemployed or unemployed.

Like how else are you going to get your photo taken?

But literally they need some more attention.

They really do.

So the likes of Matthew McConaughey, Justin Timberlake, Kylie Jenner, Timothy Chalamet, those two together and kissing,

Mindy Kaling, Leonardo DiCaprio, Amanda Seyfried, Laverne Cox, everybody has been at the US Open.

It's like the new red carpet, but with tennis balls.

It really is.

And I quite like it because they're in like slightly more casual clothes, but they still look beautiful.

Now, Nicole Kidman and Keith Urban have obviously been frequenting the very important matches.

And they're at the women's singles final match over the weekend, as was Amy Schumer.

And on her Instagram, Amy Schumer posted a photo of Nicole Kidman sitting in the crowd

with a hand under her chin and her eyes very wide with the caption,

This is how humans sit.

Almost immediately Schumer's followers started calling her out for being cruel,

commenting that what she posted was mean girl public trolling.

One of the comments said, are you cyber bullying Oscar and Emmy winner Nicole Kidman right now?

Another one said, bringing others down is always a sign of our own internal insecurities anyway.

So the critics here should hold a mirror.

Now she saw those comments.

I assume it did.

Saw the comments.

They were immediate.

And so clearly, well, so we thought she went, missed the mood.

She deleted it.

No, she didn't.

Well, she did.

She apologized with the most sarcastic apology of all time.

So she takes the post down and then she posts a screenshot of like a notes apology because that's how celebrities apologize.

And she said, I want to apologize to all the people I hurt posting a photo of Nicole Kidman and alluding to her being an alien.

I will be asking the cast of that 70s show to write letters advocating for my forgiveness.

She added the hashtag taking time to heal.

Oh, that's funny.

Sorry, not sorry.

That's what that is.

That is a very big sorry, not sorry.

That's funnier than the original joke.

People are really, really angry about this.

Now she's taken that down too.

Yes, because everyone was like, no, no, stop bullying.

Just in Australian media, Kyle Sandalands has said, I don't know why she feels she can be an asshole to everyone.

I just don't.

Hillary is coming from him.

I just don't like her.

That is absolutely people, glass houses, Kyle anyway.

You know, it's a bad day at work when Kyle Sandalands thinks you've gone too far.

He said, come on, that was mean.

And he said, she's just a horrible human being.

Nat Baugh said, because it was pretty fierce.

Things have changed since Amy used to start her joking career, I guess.

Holly, why do you think, what the fuck is Amy Schumer on?

Why do you think people are so mad?

I was mad.

I was mad.

I put it straight in our out loud thing on Monday afternoon and I was like,

I have no idea what Amy Schumer is doing because it was weird.

Last Friday we talked about soft trolling versus hard trolling.

That was a post and a comment that belonged in Amy's group chat with her girlfriends,

not out in the world where it appeared because it was that she was belittling a woman's appearance in public and nobody likes that.

I didn't read it as belittling her appearance.

I read it as belittling her behavior or her comportment.

That's such a weird word, isn't it?

But I was watching it because Nicole had been at the tennis for a couple of days and I remember thinking how stressful to be a celebrity

and be in that situation and know that everyone's looking at you and you're being filmed.

And so your face has to be and your body, you can't have a second off guard.

It's not even like walking a red carpet where you can sort of walk and pose and then you go off and you can be yourself.

So it's like you're in a two or three, I don't know how long tennis matches go, long time, a long, long photo shoot.

It's very odd and looks very strange.

Now, Nicole Kidman is amazing, a master at this.

She did sit in a certain way.

There has been speculation that perhaps it was related to her contract with Omega Watches.

We do not know this, but her watch was displayed very prominently in the way she was sitting and it was over her jumper.

But who cares?

That has legs, that theory, because one of the unforeseen knock-ons from the strike is there are fewer places in which you can fulfill all your contractual obligations.

Celebrities, if they're sponsored by a jewelry brand or a fashion brand or a watch brand, they have in their contract a certain amount of times a year that they have to show off that brand.

So is that why they're all at the tennis?

So that could be why they're all at the tennis.

They also could be at the tennis because they're not working, they're on holiday and they get free tickets and some people like tennis.

So there's also that, right?

But the thing about the maybe that's why Nicole was sitting there with her watch on the outside of her jumper, that kind of checks.

It doesn't really matter because Schumer's joke, if we can call it a joke, was so vague.

I mean, I know it was talking about how she sits, but it could also have been referencing her face.

It was mean and I think the reason everybody got really upset rather than laughing along with her is there is no quicker shortcut to pissing off a lot of women

than publicly criticizing the way another woman looks because it's an area of massive sensitivity for all of us.

So even if we might do it in our group chats, people might soft-troll and be like,

Kidman looks like she's had a bit of work or whatever it is that they might say.

Publicly calling women out for that kind of stuff never goes over well.

People get so upset.

Do you think that Amy Schumer hasn't caught up with the fact because I thought this bullying accusation was interesting.

And what does bullying mean in 2023?

I think one of the things that bullying implies is a power imbalance.

I would imagine that Amy Schumer still sees herself very much as an underdog and Nicole Kidman's a big dog.

So she would have thought that she's punching up.

And an edgy comedian.

Yeah.

And that's what comedians do, right?

Like the late night shows, all those men on the late night shows have always and still do.

And would have made the same joke on television.

Yeah, probably.

I don't know.

I don't watch them anymore, but maybe maybe not.

Maybe that type of humor is over.

I mean, the cruelty with which comedians have attacked like Monica Lewinsky and Hillary Clinton and various women over the years.

Amy Schumer hasn't caught up with the fact that she's perceived to have power and be just as big a dog as Nicole Kidman,

which she would no doubt argue against.

But do you think it doesn't matter anymore who you are?

I'm really surprised by the defensiveness and protectiveness that people have around Nicole Kidman.

I think there is something about Nicole and like for Australians, it's our Nicole.

Don't you say anything about our Nicole?

But I think since she's played particular roles, things like her role in Big Little Lies is like a more vulnerable woman.

No, it's ever since she got broken up with by Tom Cruise.

I think that Kidman used to have a massive likability issue.

I don't say that from myself, but like generally in the culture, Nicole Kidman was until quite recently really one of those actors that people were like,

Oh, I just don't like her.

She just seems a bit cold.

Oh, I think in the last 10 years, everyone's loved Nicole.

I think the age has defanged her because we're not as threatened by women once they get over a certain age.

That's my view on that.

I think there are other women we wouldn't defend so easily.

We might be happy if that was a Kardashian perhaps.

Yeah, I think there are certain women and there are perhaps certain ways of snarkiness.

There are basically far more snarky things that I think have been said that aren't called out.

That was pretty snarky.

But when you actually kind of analyse what she was saying.

So in 2017, Nicole Kidman went viral for her seal clap at the Oscars.

Which was also mean.

I thought that was hilarious.

I thought that was quite endearing.

Why?

And then she explained why it was because of the jewelry, but somebody clapping like this is funny enough.

What's the most endearing is that Nicole can be a bit goofy.

And I think as soon as she revealed that side of her and had the vulnerability of, you know, when I was a magazine editor,

you could never put Nicole Kidman on the cover because women didn't connect with her.

They didn't want to be her.

They didn't want to be her friend.

They felt threatened.

Her thing then was Ice Queen.

And I don't think it is anymore.

I mean, I think it's a good thing if we're having a cultural correction.

Me too.

I mean, let's not make fun of people.

Like the joke here is that Nicole Kidman is a robot or an alien and she's trying to human and sometimes she glitches.

That's what the clapping is about.

That's what the facial expression is about.

That used to be a joke you could make.

And I think we've got to another level of empathy where people see that picture of Nicole Kidman and don't see kind of a symbol.

They see a person and they're like, no, how would you feel if you were Nicole Kidman?

Also, you have to be in on that joke.

And I don't think everybody is in on that joke and Nicole Kidman isn't in on that joke.

And so therefore it's not a very funny joke.

But I do think so we've got that visceral reaction when we're mocking a woman's appearance.

But when we mock women in other ways, we're all very happy to join in.

So a clip that's taken out of context to make a woman look stupid or selfish or inconsiderate.

We all love to jump on that train.

But like, give us an example.

For example, if somebody tweeted something, a joke that was in the context of an interview,

and then you take that joke out and you say, Ellen DeGeneres is a bad person and we all mock her.

That's different. This is mocking.

I think that's a different story.

I think a cancellation or a pylon, which I don't like either, is a different story.

But I think this is mocking.

And what also struck me was Amy Schumer was at the tennis.

Like she was watching it or just, you know, screenshot of a photo that came up on a paparazzi site.

She was there and I was thinking, I thought the same about when Jan Fran had to go at Annabelle Crabb on her Instagram.

These women move in the same circles.

Does Amy Schumer think she's never going to be at an awards ceremony or on a red carpet?

Like, of course, you're going to cross paths.

Which makes you think perhaps it is a joke that makes sense between them or the other thing is.

And my theory, whenever I see things like this, is that Amy Schumer was at home.

She'd had four glasses of wine.

She was at the tennis court.

She thought it was hilarious.

I don't know that she was at the tennis when she posted it.

Yeah, I think it was afterwards.

I think it was afterwards.

I concur with that.

And even if she was at the tennis, people get drinking at the tennis.

Yeah.

And Radha was at this tennis game and she had a big espresso martini in her hand.

Like, I concur with the idea that, you know, it seemed hilarious at the time to Amy Schumer.

Right?

You know, she's had a few drinks and you are the funniest person in the room.

And all of the things you've already said to me is she's like, oh, I don't have to play by the rules.

I'm an edgy comedian.

No one cares what I think.

And she made a joke and everybody's like, ah!

And she was like, oh, shit.

Here's another instance where we thought it was okay to mock a woman.

When Kim Kardashian turned up to an award show with Kanye West and she was heavily pregnant

and she was wearing that dress.

The couch.

Everybody called her a couch.

Everybody had kind of a split screen photo of her and then a couch or her and then home

reception.

But revisionist history, because I don't think you'd get away with that now either.

That's yes.

No, no, no.

Sorry.

The Met Guller is different and the couch thing was about the fabric and the print of her dress.

It was about her body.

It was about her body.

I don't think it was.

I think when she was dressed in black and white and they showed a picture of her next to a killer whale

and that meme went around and people thought that was funny.

So I would disagree.

I think that we're allowed to mock silly outfits.

I think that's different because the Met Guller is about taking a big swing.

People come dressed like as a hamburger.

Like that's funny.

Or Sarah Jessica Parker comes with a bird on her head.

I just reckon that we can mock people like Kim Kardashian in a way.

We are no longer allowed to mock people like Nicole Kidman.

Hi Mia, Holly and Claire.

Just a quick note to say how much I love you guys and how you get me through every weekday

because I am a solid subscriber.

Love you guys.

I was just in the background laughing at me.

He thinks I'm the loser for doing this but I'm all for it.

Now we all know that I hate emails and I will do almost anything to avoid sending them

but if I have to send them, how should I end them?

Because I read a piece this week about how formal language in inverted commas is literally dying out

and phrases like you're sincerely and dear so and so are on life support with no chance of revival.

I don't remember the last time I started an email, dear.

No.

Me neither.

Dear Mia.

You're sincerely.

How do you start your emails?

Dear Amy Schumer.

Hi.

Or hey.

Hi.

I often just do someone's name in an exclamation mark.

Yeah.

Claire, that's fun.

That's true.

Claire.

So don't get me wrong.

I wasn't starting my emails, dear Mia, but I have been signing them off all wrong I think

because for ages I was signing them off cheers.

In fact, that used to be so my sign off that I actually put it in my auto signature and

then somebody said to me once that I, maybe not that I was, but that that particular sign

off was glorifying toxic alcohol culture.

So I stopped saying cheers because it sounded like I was saying, let's have a drink and not everybody

drinks, et cetera.

No, cheers.

Cheers is another word for thanks.

Well, that's what I thought too.

But then the other day I was talking to my daughter because she was sending a first ever formal

email like to somebody she doesn't know and she didn't sign anything.

She wrote the sentence.

She was asking a question and sent it and I was like, no, that's how you might do a text,

right?

But in an email you have to say, thank you Matilda or like a sign off.

Yeah.

Or cheers Matilda.

Anyway, I went down to rabbit hole, read this story and I was like, what is the cool way

to sign off emails now, now that we know for sure that you're sincerely and all those things

are dead and that cheers might be problematic and thank you isn't always appropriate because

everyone doesn't always need thanking.

I want some ideas from cool people.

What I do when I want to be really passive aggressive, if you ever get an email from

me or a text and it's signed off all the very best, be scared because that is the most angry

I will ever be, all the very best.

I hate it.

So there are suggestions in this story that we'll get to in a sec, but one thing that

Mia Friedman does and that when I started working at Mum Mia, it was my first job in

an office and like I'd always worked in hospitality, you don't have to send emails and Mia signs

her emails like XXXXX and so I kind of started doing that, but it was like, I cannot express

the amount of times it's been inappropriate.

Like to a senior male at another company, for example, and just, you know, you're negotiating

with an external stakeholder.

me if n' know you, oh, a little bit of like a personalization is Mike did, and then I've

got some did мест also saying bless up unless up.

Think I sent you an email that said bless up at the end you'd be like, holy having a

strong.

I'd say it was a type proprietary options and some sort I don't know what, but it's

appropriation.

another day, another sleigh. I love, I love another day, another sleigh.

Another day, another sleigh. Holly? Like, do I still write my name?

Uh, yes. Sleigh serve survive. Over and out. That seems aggressive. Yeah.

Cold regards. That's, yeah, that sounds aggressive.

Is that like lol, because it's like war. Yeah, I think so.

Irony. Thanks. And then in brackets, not sure what for.

Well, that's, I would need to do that if you're really pissed off at somebody.

Keep it groovy. Keep it groovy. That's very meh, Freeman.

Can I do that? Could be meh. Keep it groovy.

Stay hydrated, Queens. Oh, you do do stay hydrated.

I do. I think that's funny. I also think it's true. You should.

Like a lot of things could be solved with being better hydrated.

With better hydration. So I've seen me sign off stay hydrated

when she's sending like a group email that's like here's lots of instructions.

Yeah. Stay hydrated. So if we're dissecting that,

that's like here's what I'd like you to do. I'm still friendly.

Yeah. Yeah. And take care of yourself.

If it said all the very best, it means here's what I'd like you to do.

You're screwed. Yeah.

You're dead to me. I've got some really great suggestions because there is a lawyer

who has been trolling her boss for the last few months with quite unhinged email sign-offs

to prove that he's not paying any attention to the emails that he receives from her.

And she's been documenting it on TikTok. She's called Body by Taco Bell.

Some of her sign-offs are not a single regard or is butt cheeks one word or are they spread apart?

There's no toilet paper in the bathroom. Don't ask how I know.

Attached with absolutely zero confidence. Please hesitate to contact me.

You know how we've talked about how personal branding is everything now?

So now our email sign-offs also have to reflect our personal branding, correct?

Which I guess they always did because when I used to sign everything cheers,

I guess what I was trying to express is I'm friendly, approachable, formal.

Hey, you could have a beer with me or not because not everyone has to drink beer.

What about Chao? But Chao used to be Jason's catchphrase, your husband and our boss.

He says that IRL. Men of a certain age tend to say Chao.

Is it on the phone? Yeah.

My question is because Claire Stevens, you expressed an opinion that I thought was really

interesting in the meeting. Tell me about how it matters, what kind of language you use.

Yeah. So I do think there's something to be said for understanding the nuances of how language

and communication changes over time because if I get an email now that says dear madam

and ends with yours faithfully or yours sincerely, I perceive the sender to be the type of person

who hasn't absorbed modern ways of speaking and I also unconsciously dismiss them.

And if I'm being really honest, I think they're a bot.

Yeah, you think they're not a person at all?

Yeah. Yes.

Yes.

Which I totally get and that makes total sense to me.

But if you think about most workplaces being multi-generational,

it's also entirely inauthentic for people who may once have been in the yours sincerely crowd

to then be like YOLO or whatever.

Like, oh, that's a good one for you, hold on, try that.

Like that looks really desperate. So how do you strike this balance of going,

hey, I understand that the world is moving fast and I'm catching up,

but not like trying to pretend that you're young because there's nothing sadder than that.

I think there's several types of people for whom this is really, really hard for.

I think young people just entering the workplace.

It is a minefield like email, what the hell?

There is so much to learn about the nuances of that communication.

People changing industries where they might be going from a really corporate industry

to a creative industry or vice versa and people who have been in the workforce for a long time

when that formality was necessary and now it's not.

But I think what we have to remember is that while it's nice to have jokes with people

and to have a bit of kind of lightness in how you communicate.

Slay all day.

You slay all day.

There has to be a level of professionalism because if you're signing something off with

thanks and then in brackets, not sure what for, how do you have a conversation with that employee

about being respectful to coworkers?

It's interesting because what is professionalism at the moment?

You know what I mean?

Depending on the office setting you work in because the way that communication has shifted

to me now emails are quite formal.

Like if I'm communicating informally, it'll be text message Slack.

We use an instant message platform Slack.

That's informal.

No one's expecting a sign off.

But emails now is almost like posting a letter from the old days.

And so I see that as it is quite formal communication that is meant to sort of

stand the test of time.

You know what I mean?

Kept on record almost if you're communicating an email.

And so therefore I would use more professional language than I would in other forums.

But what is professional in a workplace where it's fine to be like?

I think best is actually fine.

Best, love best.

Best is quite professional.

My default template, if I were to give a template, would be high X.

Put your email.

Don't be using Gen Z fancy language in there.

Be pretty straightforward.

And then thanks sign off.

High and thanks.

Hi, thanks.

But I reckon like, yes, it is hilarious.

And I see it on TikTok all the time.

People using funny email sign offs.

Something like Slay, which I would love if I got an email and Mia signed it Slay all day.

Mia, I'd laugh.

But it's also kind of exclusive.

There are people who don't understand what that means.

That's what it means.

It's true.

Here's an idea.

Modify the sign off use depending on who you're talking to.

That's very sophisticated.

Out loud as we want to hear what you say at the end of an email.

If indeed you send them, pop into the group, send us an email

and make sure you sign it off with Slay or Dax.

And we want funny sign offs.

I reckon teachers would get really funny email sign offs from students.

I don't understand things she says.

She's the word manhati and you just use.

Mother Mia, out loud.

It's like I'm watching Squid games without subtitles.

If you want to make Mother Mia out loud part of your routine five days a week,

we release segments on Tuesdays and Thursdays just for Mother Mia subscribers.

To get full access, follow the link in the show notes

and a big thank you to all our current subscribers.

It's every girl's dream to do a photo shoot in sexy lingerie with their mother.

And this week, that dream came true for the daughter of former Spice Girl Mel B.

He used to be known as Scary Spice in an exciting story in the Daily Mail

and many other places who publish the photos under the headline

Mel B.48 displays her toned figure in lingerie as she shoots new campaign

with lookalike daughter, Phoenix 24.

In that story, we learned that the new campaign for the lingerie brand,

Pour moi, which will donate to women's aid.

I don't know what women's aid is, but the campaign's dedicated to women celebrating

women and champions body confidence, which will definitely be achieved

by putting a 48-year-old woman in a push-up bra and a thong

next to her eldest daughter, who is exactly half her age.

Another daughter of a celebrity whose dreams came true recently

is supermodel Heidi Klum's daughter, Lenny.

She's 18 years old and she posed with her mum who just turned 50

in matching lingerie for an Italian lingerie brand.

And look, I know my teenage daughter is going to be thrilled when I tell her

that I'd like to celebrate my next birthday

by posing in matching undies and some nipple tassels

as though we are sexy friends or sisters.

Holly, would you also rather shit in your own hands and clap

than be photographed semi-naked with your daughter?

100% yes!

I actually am really cross.

And I'm not cross about the underwear per se.

I know some people are saying there's something creepy about Heidi and Lenny.

I don't care about that.

What I care about is the celebration in inverted commas.

Of the aging body in inverted commas,

as long as that body looks almost exactly the same

as the body that is 30 years younger than them that they actually gave birth to.

And that's the point.

I know this is not a visual medium because we're a podcast,

but if you could see the images and you covered the heads,

you wouldn't know which was the mother and which is the daughter.

You would have to look really carefully.

You know, they don't look exactly the same,

but the whole point of this really is that they look the same.

And it just actually makes me very sad

because I was thinking about this.

I was looking at my daughter who is an age where she's,

you know, graduated out of kids sizes,

and now she's like in proper adult clothes and clothes sizes.

And I was thinking to myself the other day,

but obviously I didn't say because I'm a really excellent mother.

I was thinking you are going to spend your entire life

trying to be the size that you are right now.

And you don't even know that yet.

I really hope that's not true, that statement.

I really hope it isn't.

I hope things have shifted.

I hope the world has changed.

I hope that the traditional beauty standards

are getting broader and all those things.

But if you look around at the soup we're swimming in right now,

it's probably pretty accurate that for the next however many years,

the goal is stay the size that you could fit into your jeans,

your undies, your swimmers that you could when you're a teenager.

Do not let anything change your body,

not pregnancy, not illness, not medications you might be on,

not your metabolism slowing down or your hormonal shifts.

Nothing is allowed to change your body,

or if it is just for a very brief moment like you get a little pass

if you've got the nice neat basketball tummy when you're pregnant,

but then you better get back to the other side pretty quick.

Now we know all that, right?

But when you put it so boldly as here's this woman in her knickers

and here's her daughter in her knickers and they look the same,

it's this celebration of not ever changing

that I just think is so damaging and exhausting for us.

And also it's just not relevant in any other area of our life.

Where else in our life do we totally celebrate?

No evolution, no change, no shift, except when it comes to women's looks.

And so I just, it just makes me sad.

You say you don't have a problem with the lingerie aspect of it.

I do have a problem with the lingerie aspect of it.

I find it so bizarre, like congrats you look like your daughter,

but also the role modeling of composing your underwear with mommy.

Come on, let's airbrush the photos together.

Like that is just so disturbing.

It's lovely to have generational objectification, don't you?

I don't know about that because like, oh come on.

This is her job, right?

This is Heidi Klum's job.

She's been in underwear forever.

Her daughter would have seen her in her underwear forever.

And so it probably seems incredibly normal to them

and they're getting paid.

I just don't think that role modeling is doing anything for anyone.

And we culturally, I've thought it since I started working at mum mayor

that we love celebrity mothers and daughters.

Like our audience clicks on them so fast.

And it's because people can't believe they keep growing older.

Like their celebrity kids, they're like, how is she 20 now?

And it's like, yeah, that's inevitable because we keep aging.

And the ultimate compliment to give a mother and a daughter

is you could be sisters, which is becoming more and more outrageous.

What's the ultimate compliment for the mother?

It's not true.

The daughter's not necessarily thrilled.

But it's becoming more and more outrageous with the fact that

the average maternal age is increasing.

So that's becoming less and less likely.

But I think we love celebrities looking like their daughters

because it makes us feel like nothing ever changes and time is a circle.

And if we look at Gwyneth Paltrow and Apple

and we look at Reese Witherspoon and her daughter Ava,

we love to see that there's like this next generation.

It's like, yeah, time is cyclical and you don't have to worry about aging

because Reese Witherspoon doesn't age.

Just like Benjamin Button, it's like you're frozen in time.

I think that's really true what you said.

But it's not in any way attainable.

It's such bullshit.

In fact, what you nearly always see when I used to work in gossip mags

and you watched the kids growing up,

there'll be a point in which that kid hits adolescence.

And they actually get bigger, physically bigger than their mum

because their mum who's been swimming in diet culture her entire life

is working out with an inch of her life,

maybe getting surgery, definitely restricting her eating,

and the daughter's just being a kid.

And then what happens is the kid hits a certain age when she's like,

shit, those are the body expectations I'd put on me.

So then she starts doing that toxic behaviour that we all do.

Like I'm not in any way sitting here and saying on any moral high ground.

In fact, when I look at these, it just makes me feel and look at my daughter

and as I was saying, thinking for the rest of your life,

you are going to be in a battle to try and get back here.

And it's exhausting.

It's so exhausting and we're wasting so much energy on it.

Yeah, I think it's really interesting when your daughter does get to that age.

I really had a sense of passing the baton not in a good way.

Like I remember being with her,

it wasn't the first time she experienced street harassment,

but we were together and I've talked about it on the show before.

She thought that they were shouting out at me,

but I knew that they weren't, that they were shouting out at her.

And it's really interesting because it's at a time when society is telling

Heidi and Mel Bay that they're invisible

and that they're not hot and sexy anymore,

that they're being relegated to the stereotype of Karen.

In many ways, there's a defiance in that.

It's like, I will not go quietly into that.

Which is why I won't be criticising them for being in their pants.

Yes, but I think that there is something very important

about not competing either explicitly or implicitly with your daughter.

Yeah, it's toxic.

And giving her some space to be sexy or to be seen by the world in that way

and put your dress again on.

No, not that, but go and do what you want, but don't do it next to her.

There's something creepy about that because you are inviting comparison,

which I don't think is healthy for either of you.

And you are also inviting objectification.

I don't think that that's a good thing for young women or women of any age.

But all of that is because, and I know you know this,

but all of that is just because of the value system that we're talking about.

Beauty standards.

You know, 50-year-old mum doesn't need to look like that

and be an underwear like that to be attractive and sexy.

You know what I mean?

So I don't know that it necessarily has to be as binary as like,

well, this is their time to be sexy and attractive and your time to go away.

It's like, no, but this is the fight we always have whole,

because when women have those milestone birthdays and pose nude,

the latest example we saw was Trini Woodall who posed nude

on a horse in an homage to the Beyonce thing.

J.Lo does it all the time.

It's only the women who have bodies who do look like they're in their early 20s.

100%.

And I think that's a prison.

I think that's a prison for all of us.

Even if it makes you feel good in that moment

and it's good for your status or self-worth or whatever it is,

I think you're creating a prison for all of us,

because there's only one type of older woman's body that's celebrated at that age

and it's one that doesn't look like any different to 23.

This is only a thing taking a photo in lingerie with your daughter

when you look ridiculously young and when your body is a certain type of weight.

We're not looking at average mothers and their daughters.

But interestingly, in the Mel B story, that was all in the context of weight loss,

that she apparently put on some weight during COVID and she's now lost that weight.

And I just think what message does that send to your daughter

that it's okay to be in lingerie when we've lost weight?

And I think growing up and seeing your parents have normal bodies

and being in their underwear and look how people of their age are meant to look

is probably one of the single most important things for healthy body image.

And then to see these images be plastered everywhere,

I just feel for those daughters.

I feel for the kind of life that they're about to enter

and the ideas that they are going to have around beauty and their bodies and what makes them valuable.

I don't feel sorry for the daughters as much as I feel sorry for all of us who

are swimming in this sea of having those beauty standards reinforced.

I've got a recommendation and it's because of Out Loud.

Remember a few weeks ago we talked about a drama on a show called Below Deck Down Under

where a male crew member of the boat who was on the show

got into bed with another female crew member on the boat and producers had to intervene

and he ended up getting fired and it was a really interesting story.

I decided to go and watch that show and I'm not a reality show person.

I'm not being snobby if you are more power to you but they just can't hold my interest

or hold my attention but I cannot even tell you why.

This is like meditation for me.

I think because the stakes are so low that was like high stakes on that episode

but there's two seasons of just Below Deck Down Under the episodes are really really long

not much happens at all.

It's like oh no someone's broken a glass on the deck who's going to clean it up

and then someone has to fold the towels and the ironing's not done in the laundry

and maybe one of the guests is vegetarian and that is like the big drama.

Chef am I being told off?

No we're going to have a conversation to stop let it all go

and just deal with what you've got in front of you but we just have to get on with it.

They wanted this style so you do it the way you can do it.

It's just like planning something all day in your head and getting quite excited about it

to last minute.

You can't have Colby, you can't have this and everything I've been planning,

getting excited about just done.

I just really love it.

No there's a type of reality TV I love and I think it's also what you love

and I think I know why we love it.

It's workplace reality TV I love so there used to be a show

Christine Cavalier, it was called Very Cavaliery and it was her running her business

and it was all like this person's just lazy and she's not doing enough so I've got to go

and yell at her and I'm like I love workplace reality TV because that's what this is.

It's like the chef isn't pulling their weight.

Yes that's very true because I've been trying to watch the reboot of Real Housewives of New York

and I've never watched any of those Real Housewives but there's a woman called Jenna Lyons in it

who's like this iconic fashion woman and so I thought I'll watch it but it's all just contrived,

it's all just like they have to pretend that there's a fight about something and then everyone

just sits around talking.

I like that they're doing things, it's workplace, just love it.

If you're looking for something else to listen to on yesterday's subscriber episode

we got deep and revealed the traits we deplore in ourselves and other people.

So I'd stop thinking about that conversation.

Me too.

Actually, yeah, no I'll have to talk to you guys outside the studio because yeah.

I kept thinking about it and I kept thinking I must tell Mia that she was wrong.

She was wrong.

I must tell her so we'll have another fight about that at some other point.

But it's based on the proofs to questionnaire and their questions to sort of really unveil

your character and we're going to keep asking each other these questions on subscriber episodes.

You can find all the questions in a post on Mamma Mia we will link to it so that you can

tell us which ones you'd like us to answer next.

Yes please.

So a link to that episode will be in the show notes.

Thank you for listening to Australia's number one news and pop culture show.

This episode was produced by Mling Azilles.

The assistant producer is Tali Blackman with audio production by Leah Porges.

Bye.

Bye.

Shout out to any Mamma Mia subscribers listening.

If you love the show and you want to support us,

subscribing to Mamma Mia is the very best way to do it.

There's a link in the episode description.

Machine-generated transcript that may contain inaccuracies.