Lenny's Podcast: Product | Growth | Career: Lessons on building product sense, navigating AI, optimizing the first mile, and making it through the messy middle | Scott Belsky (Adobe, Behance)

Yeah, you know, I've had this conversation quite a few times

over the years with founders and friends who were running a

company going sideways or worse and have had this question,

should I continue or not?

I always have the same answer.

I basically say, how much conviction do you have in the

solution you're building?

I know in the beginning, before you knew all you know now,

you had tons of conviction.

That's what caused you to leave your job.

Now knowing all you know, do you have more or less conviction

in the problem and the solution you're building?

And I'll tell you, like I get different answers.

You know, some people are like, oh, Scott, I mean, I have

more conviction.

Like all that I've learned, all the validation I've received

from customers, we just haven't figured it out yet.

It's driving me crazy.

We've tried three times and it's still like each product

fails, but I have more conviction than ever before.

And for those people, I'm like, you know what?

You're just in the messy middle.

Stick with it.

You know, this is this is par for the course.

But you know, oftentimes I'll hear honestly, if I knew now

what I if I knew then what I know now, I would not have done

this like, holy shit, I am like, then quit.

Like your life is short.

You have a great team.

Pivot do something completely different.

If you've lost conviction, you should not be doing what

you're doing in the world of entrepreneurship.

Welcome to Lenny's podcast where I interview world-class

product leaders and growth experts to learn from their

hard one experience is building and growing today's most

successful products.

Today, my guest is Scott Belsky.

Scott is an absolute product legend.

He's a former founder starting a company called the hands

that he sold to Adobe where he worked up the ranks to chief

product officer and more recently to chief strategy

officer and executive vice president of design and emerging

products.

He's also an author of the beloved book, the messy middle.

He's also an angel investor in companies like Pinterest,

Uber, air table, Flexport, Warby Parker and many more.

In our wide ranging conversation, Scott shares his advice

on how to build product sense, why you should only build half

the features that you want, what it takes to build a successful

consumer product and we spend a lot of time on how AI is likely

to change the world of product and the world broadly.

Scott is such an insightful and articulate thinker and I learned

a lot from this conversation.

With that, I bring you Scott Belsky after a short word from

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Scott, welcome to the podcast.

Hey Lenny, and it's great to be here.

I don't know if you know this, but it's been a big goal of

mine to get you on this podcast since the day I launched it.

And so I'm really excited that you're here.

I wanted to start with your role at Adobe.

So for the longest time, you're a chief product officer at

Adobe and then recently I noticed you shifted to this very

complicated sounding role.

I'm curious what this new role is and then why you made that shift.

Well, in this new role, I'm overseeing strategy and corporate

development, all of design across the company and emerging

products for the business.

If you look back at the last five years or so, it really has

been about getting our core products to the cloud, making

them collaborative, making some critical and interesting

opportunistic acquisitions over the years, ensuring that we

have connectivity between the products, that we launch new

web apps that meet new types of creatives.

And that was an incredible five-year chapter now with the

advent of AI and new and emerging fast growing businesses we

have, like the 3D and immersive space, the stock business and

how that whole space is being changed by new technology, the

idea of bringing that into an organization and being able to

focus on that full time was really exciting to me.

So what is it that you're doing day to day now just to even get

it even more concrete?

I'm curious what your days are looking like.

Well, I think that it's the strategy of a company always

needs to be iterated.

And so being tasked with developing the strategy across

the entire company, there's no shortage of opportunities and

people to meet and things to think about there.

Corporate development, certainly like new M&A stuff and

integration, all that sort of stuff, you know, falls under

me as well.

And I have a lot of feelings about that having been an

entrepreneur that went through integration myself.

So it's kind of fun to be on the other side and try to improve

it, you know, from that vantage point on the design side.

It's been a ton of time reviewing the design across every

product and really trying to raise the bar for the experiences

we're shipping.

And that's that's a hard thing to do in a company that has a

lot of legacy products, you know, and a lot of baggage that

comes with them.

And on the emerging product side, it's really about the new

products we're bringing into the market and how to make them

win.

Something that comes up on this podcast a number of times is

how CPOs rarely last at a company.

They stay like Casey mentioned this and a few other people

they stay around for a couple of years.

They're like the best they can do is just take a few swings at

how things work improve a few things and then they see us

like now this isn't great and then find someone else.

What do you think has contributed to you surviving and lasting

and thriving and, you know, taking on more and more

responsibility at Adobe?

Well, in the in the Chief Product Officer role, I oversaw design

products and engineering.

And I think part of the reason I was even interested in coming

into the company and taking this role is that I felt like these

these boundaries between these functions are, you know, at

best artificial at worst, like really constraining.

And I always have felt like a lot of products win not because

of the technology, but the user's experience of the technology.

And so if you have an aligned team that gets that and makes

decisions accordingly, I think you can ship better experiences.

So a lot of the work I had to do was breaking some of these

boundaries down over the years.

And I think that a lot of Chief Product Officials traditionally

don't oversee engineering and sometimes don't even oversee

design.

And, you know, for me, that wouldn't be interesting.

Zooming into product.

If there's a Mount Rushmore of insightful product thinkers,

I feel like you'd be on it.

And part of the reason is that you have this incredible product

sense, whatever that means, it's clear that you have strong

product sense.

And PMs often talk about the importance of product sense and

how to build product sense.

And I'm curious, how do you feel like you built your product

sense and what advice would you give to younger PMs looking to

build product sense?

First of all, I think the biggest mistakes that teams make

is they become very passionate about a solution to a problem

they're trying to solve as opposed to do everything they

can to develop empathy for the customer that's suffering the

problem.

And oftentimes the empathy gives you the solution, whereas

the passion you have for whatever you think the solution is

might be 30 degrees off with the solution actually is.

And so this development of empathy, you know, is a key

part of it.

And of course, as I think about the discipline of crafting

product experiences, to me, it's all about psychology.

It's about understanding the natural human tendencies that

people have in their most, you know, primal moments.

I talk a lot about the first mile experiences that we have

across any product we use, whether we're a consumer or

an enterprise user, in the first 30 seconds of using a new

product, you are lazy, vain and selfish.

You want to get it done super quickly.

You want to look good to your colleagues or to your friends.

You want to feel successful very quickly by engaging in this

product.

You don't want to have to watch a tour or read anything, you

know, really endure any learning curve whatsoever.

Of course, if you can get people through the first 30 seconds,

you have so much opportunity to build a more lasting

relationship with that customer and have them understand your

mission and the full potential of your product.

But we need to we need to kind of ground ourselves with the

fact that that's really hard to do.

It's fascinating to me that most teams spend the final mile of

their time building the product considering the first mile of

the customer's experience using the product.

If you can just get more customers through that top of

funnel, you are a world-class product team, you know, let's

anchor ourselves on just doing that and let's use psychology

to do so.

And just to make sure people understand when you talk about

the first mile, essentially that's the onboarding flow

maybe to the activation moment.

I think that's right.

It's the onboarding flow.

It's the initial experience.

It's the defaults that you see.

It's the orientation of where you are so many products.

You actually don't exactly know how you got to where you are

and how to get home and where to get help.

So I would say it's the onboarding.

It's the orientation and it's the defaults.

You've been a constant and early advocate of investing in that

part of the funnel and it's interesting how often that comes

up on this podcast.

When people think about how do we improve retention?

How do we improve growth?

Often the biggest wins from stories that we get on this

podcast are in that part of the flow.

And so another data point to spend more time there and as I

wanted to ask you, are you finding even at the stage of

like an Adobe, there's still lots of opportunity in the first

mile or do you find that it becomes less and less and less

and then it's less important?

The answer is lots of opportunity.

The reason is because the customers change.

Every new cohort of new customers is different.

The new customers you have in the early stages of your product

are typically more willing and forgiving customers and you

might nail the onboarding process for them and then suddenly

realize that wait, it's not being as effective anymore.

And the reason is because now you're engaging more of those

pragmatist customers, those later stage customers who are

initially more skeptical, less forgiving, less willing to

deal with your friction.

And so you have to reimagine the onboarding process all over

again. I mean, when you look at a product like Photoshop, for

example, it used to cost hundreds and hundreds of dollars,

right? Now you can get Photoshop for as little as 10 bucks a

month. And so of course, the funnel is a lot larger.

A lot more people come in with creative desires without the

skills or the tolerance to develop them.

And so that dictates an entire change in the onboarding

experience for a product like Photoshop.

It makes me think if something should share the CF Coda shared

about how he's like, I don't really buy this idea of product

market fit because you have product market fit with your

existing users that love it and know about it.

And you always don't have product market fit with the people

you want to be used the product.

And it's related to what you're talking about, like the newest

people joining up. No idea what you're doing.

I agree with that. And I actually think that the role of AI

going forward will be to have applications increasingly meet

us where we are.

You know, to this day, we've always had to generalize onboarding

experiences for the most part for everyone.

And I'm really excited about the day when kind of products

meet us where we are, you know, based on what type of user

we are.

I have a billion AI related questions for you.

So I'm going to hold off just a bit and I wanted to double

click on the empathy piece.

So you talk about how to become better at product sense,

empathy and understanding the user's problems is really

important.

Give any advice for someone that wants to build that like what

can I actually do to become more empathetic and build that

part of their skill set?

Well, the most humbling moments for me as a product leader

have always been shoulder to shoulder to customers watching

them actually go about their day, not just use my product,

but go about their day because what you end up getting is

context for a lot of data that you're missing.

When customers are using your product, they're using it

amidst everything else around them, you know, in the enterprise

it's all their other, you know, meetings and other products

and pings that they're getting throughout the day and as a

consumer, you know, it's between dealing with their kids or

their loved ones or watching Netflix or whatever the case

might be.

And in order to really understand where the customer is and

where their mentality is, you have to understand the context

in which they're using your product.

So part of developing empathy is being shoulder to shoulder

and just encountering that reality, you know, alongside

your customer and that time.

It just gives you better intuition.

It helps you understand more and with empathy, we can then

better create quote unquote for ourselves, right?

Because by developing empathy for others, we're feeling what

they're feeling.

We can then be the customer and of course we all know some of

the best customers, some of the best products in the world

are made when we are, you know, the makers are the customer.

Makes me think of Mark Andreessen as this awesome code

that I always come back to that everyone's time is already

allocated.

They don't have time for your product.

That's right.

How do I find a new app to suck up my time?

And by the way, as a related note, since I know Lenny, you talk

to a lot of gas around product like growth, you know, and sorry

if I'm skipping around here, but I think this is also, it's

also relevant because everyone's trying to get their products

to grow.

And the other thing that perplexes me is that people expect

product leaders expect people to talk about a product being

great and people don't talk about a product doing exactly

what they expected it to do.

They talk about a product doing what they didn't expect.

And you know, you look at a product like Tesla, you know,

people are not going and talking about how they had a great

drive today, but they're talking about the Easter egg.

They they discovered on the dashboard or the, you know, cool

new feature that, you know, they discovered that is associated

with Christmas or whatever.

And so it always is interesting to me like in consumer and even

enterprise products, maybe especially so, like, why aren't

we optimizing for those things that people wouldn't expect the

product to do as a way to get that surprise and delight to

talk about it, to have like, you know, to develop kind of a

relationship with our products.

I think that's another piece of the puzzle.

That is really interesting and reminds me of something I just

talked about with Gustav from Spotify, whose episode might

come in before this or after this about how every great

consumer product pulls some kind of magic trick and feels like

magic to you like Spotify as an example.

And I like that, you know, magic, you know, sort of a little

mystery, a little intrigue, a little surprise.

It's a classic trick that Hollywood uses all the time.

Why don't we use it in our own products?

So let me pull on that thread a little bit about just consumer

products in general.

You spent a lot of your career, maybe most of your career in

consumer, imagine Adobe, there's a lot of B2B elements now

as well.

And you also angel invest and you'd help a lot of consumer

companies.

And tell me if you agree, but it feels like new consumer

products basically never work.

And if they do work, there's like a period where they work

like be real is kind of going through this now clubhouse

paparazzi went through this and then they fail or, you know,

fade away, maybe, maybe they come back and then fade away.

I guess, first of all, do you, you generally agree that like

consumer is just like so rarely successful new consumer

products.

You know, Uber was a consumer product, right?

But it built a network effect that was never there before.

It leveraged excess capacity that was always there, but never

tapped.

It did something under the hood, right?

That gave it lasting power.

You know, I think of Pinterest, you know, and I was Ben's first

seed angel or, you know, and product advisor.

And, you know, with, with, with that product, it was, you

know, he had this like unique insight into the consumer

psychology where it was not as much about getting likes and

portraying, you know, yourself through pictures of you and

seeing pictures of friends and all of this sort of anxiety

that is induced by that, but rather helping people collect

and, you know, represent themselves with their interests.

And so again, that was kind of like a new, a new insight that

I also think developed its own network effect that enabled it

to be lasting.

And there was a fascinating business component, which was

it drove a crap load of traffic to every source of every

pin, which then got those sites to then put pin buttons

themselves because they wanted more traffic.

So they were underlying things under the hood again that were,

you know, sort of tilting the market in his favor.

I think that a lot of these other more recent consumer

products are just kind of clever momentary interfaces.

And they are in effect at the expense of venture capitalist

R&D for the platforms that already have the network

effects and already have the distribution channels and the

ad sales and everything else.

And so I think that's why we're seeing, you know, B-Rills

capability is now also in TikTok and you're seeing a lot

of flashes in the pan, especially in these creative

consumer apps, which I've been very, you know, paying very

close attention to their fun and novel, but if they really

work, those features have been brought into the native

Apple camera, for instance.

So let's double click on that.

I know this is like a big question, but just what have

you found is important for a new consumer product to work?

You mentioned surprise would be great network effects,

maybe a new insight.

What else do you find is important for a durable new

consumer product to work?

Yeah, and it's interesting because I think my answer

10 years ago would probably be different than my answer

today.

I think that there is a nimbleness and a, and maybe

it started in China with these super apps that were able

to kind of do everything and that changed the idea away

from the atomized experiences of a decade plus ago where

you wanted like a specialized product that did exactly what

you wanted in a very like reduced way.

I think Snapchat emerged under that world.

You know, I think Instagram became valuable to Facebook

because of that phenomenon.

Fast forward to today where all of us are far more

technologically literate and we are able to manage a lot

more cognitive load in our everyday technology lifestyles.

And so there, you know, suddenly we don't mind five tabs.

We don't mind features hidden and tucked away in menus

because we're sort of used to that now.

And so maybe that's one of the reasons why these established

platforms get away with, you know, basically copying any

novel new capability as opposed to those becoming apps

in and of themselves.

So let me shift a little bit and talk about a tweet that

you tweeted about what one thing you've learned.

You have this amazing thread of just like things you have

learned over the many years you've been thinking about

products and consumer products.

And one of them was about how you've learned that you should

do half the things that you want to do like half the features

you plan to do, you have the features offer half the options

you want to offer focus on half the market versus market you're

trying to go after you just talk about maybe how you kind of

came up on that learning and then also just how do you

actually do that?

It's like, sure, great.

We're going to do half, but then which half and oh, but

someone wants this feature so badly shoot like we can do them

all.

So do you have any advice and just had it actually execute

that sort of approach?

I mean, one of the first comments I'll just make is

whenever I'm asked by teams what features need to be part of

their MVP, how do they decide, you know, which features they

need to ship first and whatever.

I always tell them to optimize for the problems they want to

have.

You want the problem of customers getting through your funnel

feeling successful using your product and getting value and

then saying to you, Oh, but I need it on this platform or I need

this capability or I want to be able to share this.

I mean, you want those problems.

So don't do those features now.

Only do the things that prevent people from getting to the

point where they care enough to ask you for anything.

You know, make sure they can get through the signup flow.

Make sure they can connect their account.

Make sure they can use Google login if they need to or whatever

the case may be.

So I always remind the teams like optimize for the problems

you want to have and make sure that you eliminate all the

brick walls, the major catastrophe type things that can

happen.

But in terms of the the half the half half, you know, I learned

this the hard way.

When Behance was launching back in 2008.

I was always, you know, trying to hedge us with product features.

And I wasn't sure if people would be coming to join groups or

if people would be coming for the tip exchange where creative

share best practices with one another or if people were coming

to build their portfolios or just share work in progress.

Maybe it's too much to build a whole project of your work.

Maybe we can allow people just to share snapshots of their

work.

And so we actually launched with pretty much all of these

features and and then, you know, it was the most complicated

form of Behance was ironically at the beginning.

And then what we realized is that some things were taking

off and some things weren't.

So I remember when we decided to kill the tip exchange and

suddenly the publishing of projects in the portfolio went

up and we're like, Oh my gosh, like projects being published

is the core metric and it's what drives the traffic back to

Behance.

Let's do this again.

I don't know.

Let's kill groups.

And so we killed groups and low and behold, more people published

more projects and it was like, wow.

So actually, if you make the whole product about one thing,

everyone does that.

That core crank operates at like 10 X the velocity and if

that's the most important metric for the business.

That's that's gold.

And so we basically went on a killing spree.

We just started killing things and over the years we have

actually tried to have this sort of and I pushed us on many

products and I work with now whenever you're adding things

consider what you can replace.

Consider what you can also remove when we updated the

portfolio on Behance.

I remember we used to have this ability to change the colors

of your portfolio in Behance when people clicked on your

profile and saw all your projects.

You could control that and add your brand element to it.

And and so, you know, we were like, you know what, but what

would happen if we just took this away with people?

Again, focus more on projects.

And so we took it away for 24 hours.

We had people reaching out to us being like, damn you.

Like, how could you take away these controls for for color

in a portfolio after 24 hours?

We basically never heard about it again.

All the portfolios look cleaner and more consistent and people

did the core metric more.

And so I just took from that.

Try to kill things and everything you think you need to do

you probably only need to do half of it.

I wonder if in reality, most of the time you only realize

this afterwards versus ahead of time.

And that's just the way it is.

And then it's just the seal of sunsetting things that aren't

actually important.

I do have to say the Lenny, like some of the best product

leaders that I've worked with, I do feel like they have this

great, you know, a reductionist or minimalistic tendency by

default, you know, they're just like very much.

They anchor themselves on the one thing they want people to

do and do well, and they just are like pretty ruthless about

like everything else being like, okay, but only if we have a

problem with doing this core thing.

Okay, put on the back burner.

You know, it's and so it's something I've tried to I've

tried to get better at over the years.

You know, it's really interesting is this is exactly

like Matt Machari, who is actually the number one most

popular podcast episode talks about when you let people go

and he's helped a lot of CEOs let people go that a hundred

percent of the time, everything just starts moving faster as

soon as you have fewer people.

And so it's the same exact model in people and products.

I think that's right.

And that's why I always feel like, you know, tough decisions,

you know, almost always afterwards feel like a relief.

And that's true for the product.

That's true for people on a team as well.

Let's shift to talking about AI, which I'm really excited

about because I know you've been spending a lot of time talking

with people about AI, building AI products, you all launched

Firefly, which a lot of people are really excited about.

You also have this newsletter where you kind of just share

your implications on how AI and technology is going to impact

the world.

So a lot of questions, I'm excited to ask you around this

and I'll just start really broad and maybe this too big of

a question, but just how different do you expect the world

to be in say five years as a result of AI, both for product

builders and then just people in general.

Listen, I'm an optimist and and I feel like our human potential

has always been held back by the laws of physics essentially.

The mundane repetitive labor you need to do to get anything

done is what holds back our ingenuity.

It's the friction, right?

It's the work in workflows that wouldn't be great if we could

just have flow and no work.

And I think that that's what AI kind of does is it gets us

from workflow to flow.

It gets us into this flow state where any idea in your mind's

eye, you can start to develop it.

I was having this discussion with with Howie who runs air

table actually just earlier today, where we were talking

about we were talking about the leader at IBM who announced

that he's not going to hire 8000 people that he would have

hired because AI is going to be able to do that work.

And what we were talking about was and how he made the point

as engineers have become much more productive over the years.

That doesn't mean that companies have wanted fewer engineers.

It actually just means that they demand more of their engineers

and engineers have more possibility to do more.

And so if human ingenuity goes up, maybe we actually want

to hire more people because if you have more ingenuity per

human being, maybe you can actually do more as a company.

You may be companies that used to have three products will

have five products or seven products or 30 products.

And you know, maybe that's actually the trend that we're

forgetting is that humans bring this level of ingenuity to

every problem and every opportunity.

Whereas computers remember like chat GPT is basically just

giving you what it would look like if right.

It's not truly finding edges that will become the center.

It's actually just mining the center and is trying to regurgitate

the center, which is also very helpful by the way.

So I'm optimistic, you know, I think that there will be far

more people engaged in delivering experiences.

You know, I'm very long the experience economy because I

think that there will be some people liberated to focus more

on the non scalable things that really move the needle for

experiences for customers.

And then I, you know, and I also am excited about humans

having less grudge work to do.

I'm also excited for that.

It reminds me there's a, I have a TikTok account and I have

this team that helps with the TikTok and they, we haven't

shared this, but a few of the TikToks are my voice generated

with AI and they just write a script and it's me reading the

story and it sounds sort of like me, but like, and I showed

it to a friend and I was like, do you see anything?

You feel anything weird about this video?

And he's like, oh, you, you sound great.

You sound like really like a great speaker of like, okay.

Say hi.

Well, while you were reading, instead of reading a script,

you can be, you know, plotting the course of the next episode.

Yeah, exactly.

So I totally see what you're talking about there in the

product team.

Which function do you think will be the most disrupted and

or the most, I don't know, optimized through AI?

We're entering the era where we collapse the stack in every

organization where instead of having to go to someone for

anything, you can kind of do more things yourself.

It's very empowering to get the answer from data as opposed to

having to go to a data scientist or a data analyst in the middle.

So there's going to be far less game of operator across the

organization and, you know, far more empowerment for people

to dig their own rabbit holes, answer their own questions and

get things done.

You know, I happen to believe that that's the advantage

typically of small teams is that they're flat.

The stack is collapsed.

People all can hear each other, you know, in an audible

across the room.

And that's how they run circles around big stodgy like old

companies that are disparate, you know, and dispersed around

the world.

So maybe, you know, maybe this technology allows cross

functional work, right?

And to happen and I'm excited about, I'm excited about that.

That is really interesting.

So essentially what you're saying is a PM will be able to do

more design, more engineering, more data potentially, and

it won't, maybe one day it'll be just as good as having a data

scientist and your team, but there's essentially everyone

becomes kind of as a unicorn cross functional mini team,

which sort of suggests this idea of idea meritocracy, you

know, it's almost like what if people get promoted and

opportunity, you know, based on how creative and how much

ingenuity they have as opposed to, you know, how many reports

or bug things they've gotten through or whatever else.

So there's something about what you're saying that I do

think, yes, it's disruptive to the degree that will you need

a data analyst in the loop, but I also would suggest that

again, a data analyst doesn't have to answer redundant requests

all day.

She can spend time on, you know, thinking of other things

without the boundaries of functions like we just discussed.

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A lot of listeners are product managers and so just going a

little bit further even within the product management function.

How do you see the PMRL changing in the next five years as

a result of AI?

Well, let me start by saying that I think that the greatest

performers I've ever worked with, whether they're designers or

product leaders, basically preserve the time to explore

lots of possibilities.

They call those possibilities down to fewer set.

They get feedback on those.

They refine them even further and then they present to the

team like these are the two or three things.

I think we should do.

And that's the way a great designer works.

You know, for example, that is a function of time.

If you have the skills and the capabilities, it's just how much

time, how much time do you have to explore the full surface

area of possibility and find the best possible option?

In my world, in my mind, generative AI and AI for all, you know,

any talk to about just like product leaders exploring

possibilities, this should expand the surface area.

I was talking to a pretty well-known director in Hollywood

world and he was telling me that he uses chat GPT.

I was like, no, are you serious?

You do?

He was like, yeah, I don't use it to write any scripts.

But sometimes when I'm developing something with a writing

partner, I won't ask chat GPT, you know, what would you do?

And I'll explain the full instance, you know, the full

situation in extreme detail and it will spit out like five

scenarios and I actually don't use any of them, but it just

like gives me more surface area.

It tells me the things that I wouldn't want to do, which is

also good data.

And I just thought that that response so interesting.

And so when you ask about product leaders, I think that's

what we're going to have is we're going to have the superpower

of exploring far more surface area in far less time.

It reminds me of something I always share about like, why

do you need a PM?

Why do you need a designer?

Why do you need researchers?

It's not necessarily that they're just like very good at

these specific skills.

It's that they just have time to do this one thing that needs

to be done.

Like you can have engineers do the PM role, but they don't

have time.

They want to code and they're not they'd rather do that.

And so this is really interesting that it connects to

it'll give everyone a little more time to get better at

the thing they want to be doing.

That's true.

Is there anything you're doing with PMs at Adobe at this

point that help them leverage these tools and just the ways

of working that you're actually using today?

One of my obsessions has been bringing design earlier into

the process of product development.

So it's not necessarily AI yet, but it's the idea of designers.

First of all, being in the room, even being in the room with

some of the customer research and some of the debates around

even the value proposition to the customer and some of the

things that traditionally happen only with the PMs.

I just find that again, like collapsing the stack, if you

will, like having a designer hear these things and contribute

gives them like a golden gut as they are then sitting down

later and going through possible interfaces to solve the

problem.

So I love bringing design upstream like that's in fact,

that's probably been the cheat code of my career as a

product leader as has just been disproportionately empowering

design throughout the process.

I think what we're going to start seeing is generative AI

augmenting the designer's work in real time.

So right now, I mean, in Photoshop, we're experimenting

with when, you know, instead of just reducing an image and

cropping, you can also extend an image and and that's of

course using generative AI for outpainting.

And so you can imagine as you're doing edits and that as well

as in other forms of design, getting kind of thumbnails of

what you might be trying to accomplish and then touching

them almost like predictive text to go to the next step to

the next step and take leaps in the creative process as opposed

to incremental steps.

I think that that's going to happen far more and hopefully

product designers, product managers will be involved to

some extent in some of these decision points, you know,

as as designers have more options to choose from you

throughout this term golden gut.

What is that about?

The golden gut is when you're when you're designing an

experience and and a flow.

You are playing around right with all kinds of options.

You're moving things around.

You're saying actually that's too complicated.

Maybe I'll separate this one page into three steps as opposed

to one page with three steps in a row.

How do I break this down?

How do I simplify?

You know, you sometimes have instincts like, oh wait, what

if I just remove this altogether?

You know, what if you didn't even have this whole series of

steps?

What if I just had a presumptuous default instead and

customers could change it if they think they need to?

And you know, in some of those sorts of I wonder if I wonder

if I wonder if to me is the difference between a very junior

product thinker and a very experienced product thinker.

I think experienced product thinkers with that golden

gut of, oh my gosh, wait, reduction of cognitive load.

Maybe if even if 10% of people get confused to get 90% of

people far faster through this process is a big win and a

great opportunity cost trade off.

Like I think those sorts of little micro decisions that we

make in the process of building products.

That's the golden gut.

I love it.

I've not heard that term before.

4 p.m.

is listening and they're like, okay, AI is happening.

I don't know what to do.

What would be your advice for them to kind of stay ahead and

be aware where things are going and not be left behind?

Quite simply in one word play.

You know, we all have to be playing with this technology.

We have to find ways.

The risk of becoming more experienced in your career is

you get stuck in your ways and you're like, oh, no, I don't

need to have that automatic draft in my email and get chat

GPT to suggest what I want to respond with.

I'm fine without that.

Make sure you try it.

Make sure you play with it.

You know, write poems for your friends.

You know, try a lot of these various generative AI tools

out there just to see what's possible and and pursue every

curiosity.

The reason I started the implications newsletter is

because I was seeing this high velocity of new stuff every

day and I'm like, I have to force myself to make sure I

understand all of this and think about how these implications

will change my business as well as the world that I operate

in and there was no better way to do that than to have to

write about it, you know, and promise my readers, I'll get

a monthly thing out there.

So I just think we all have to do some version of that.

Let's plug implications while we're at it.

How do people go subscribe or do they find it?

Yeah, I know it's implications.com.

So it's easy to find, but this is a it's just a it's a

monthly exercise where throughout the month, I try to

capture a few things I think are important and I really try

to go deep down the rabbit hole of what the implications are

for, you know, various parts of our work in life.

And it's been a fun it's been a fun exercise and also I get

some good polarizing feedback in the process.

Oh, you do.

Interesting.

You should share that.

That'd be interesting as like, here's what I'm getting in

response to the stuff I'm writing.

This also touches on a thread that comes up a lot in this

podcast is the power of just writing to help you think

through stuff.

Like a lot of people think my newsletter is I'm just sharing

all these things.

I know I'm just like, I know it in my head.

I'm just going to share it in the thing, but it's more the

writing helps me figure it out and gives me an excuse and like

you said, it's a forcing function to spend the time

crystallizing it.

And so that's another reminder for that and capturing those

things.

I think that the thing I've kind of learned over the years

with writing and also with product development is, you know,

as soon as you capture these little glimpses and things or

sketches and they become relevant years later.

So don't always capture and write because of a foreseeable

need for that content.

Consider it almost like a, you know, a back burner that you're

constantly tending to and imagine that three years from now,

the stars will align and this will become invaluable content

or some crucial idea, you know, for a problem you're facing

at the moment.

There's a lot of people actually in your shoes that want to

write more and put content out, but that also full-time job

with a lot of things on your plate.

Any advice for actually getting it done the way you've been

getting it done?

You know, listen, there's, there's, there's no hack to it

other than ruthlessness of time and prioritization, you know,

saying no to most things, you know, this morning I went for

a run and I was like, I have 40 minutes exactly until I have

to get in the shower and I have to be somewhere in 30 minutes

from that moment.

I'm going to take those 40 minutes or at least 35 of them

and I'm going to write.

I don't care if I write five words or five pages and it's

just a great, you know, without that discipline though,

it's, as you said, it's super hard to get it in the, you know,

in the, in the, in the seams of the schedule.

Speaking of discipline, you wrote a book called The Messy

Middle and without even talking about what it is, the title

is pretty, I think people feel like I get it and imagine many

people listening are founders or PMs that are feeling like

they're in this messy middle.

What is one piece of advice for people in this period that

you might, you think might help them through the messy middle?

The bottom line is that these years in the middle of whether

it's a venture from your new startup, bold turnaround

within a big company, they are messy because they are full

of lows, you know, it's very volatile when you're in those

lows, you need to find a way to endure them.

You need to endure the anonymity and uncertainty and anxiety.

I'm sure a lot of listeners are whether they're in big companies

or starting their own company.

It's hard to be doing something that no one knows or cares

about.

I always like to remind myself that the life expectancy of

humans 100 plus years ago was 25 years old.

So the idea of spending three to five years of your life on

something, especially if it might fail was a bad decision,

you know, and I think biologically we feel the need for

constant rewards and affirmation to stick with something long

enough.

And in fact, like if any of you know, most of your listeners

are we're all we're all building things that take many,

many years to defy the odds and we have to overcome our natural

human tendencies in this instance by sticking together long

enough to figure it out.

So how do you do that?

Right?

I mean, obviously part of it is culture wanting to serve the

customers you serve and working with the team you were working

with and that being enough to kind of stick it long enough.

I think part of it is short circuiting the reward system,

you know, finding micro goals and milestones that are mutually

agreed upon.

We're going to celebrate these even though in the greater

scheme of things, they don't matter much.

I think that's a key part of keeping the team and keeping the

dream alive.

I always like to use the analogy of we're driving our teams

across country as product leaders with the windows blacked

out in the backseat and everyone's sitting in the backseat.

And so if they don't know what we're doing that we're making

progress, this traffic is clearing where we just cross

state lines.

If they if they don't receive the narrative, they will go

stir crazy.

And so there's a lot of research around progress be getting

progress and how progress is a source of motivation.

And so as product leaders, we have to merchandise progress.

We have to be the steward of this narrative.

And you touch on this a bit as you were just talking, but

there's also this moment where it makes sense to quit like

you shouldn't stay with things endlessly.

And I guess any advice on just when something is like, okay,

should probably move on from this makes me think a little bit

about there's all these companies that just keep going that

maybe should keep going because they have enough money or

they're just like, no, founders never quit.

Any advice or thoughts that you share there?

Yeah, you know, I've had this conversation quite a few times

over the years with founders and friends who who were running

a company going sideways or worse and have had this question.

Should I continue or not?

I always have the same answer.

I basically say and I really ask how much conviction do you

have in the solution you're building?

I know in the beginning before you knew all you know now,

you had tons of conviction.

That's what caused you to leave your job.

You know, that's what caused you to take all this risk and hire

people and raise money and all this stuff.

Now knowing all you know, do you have more or less conviction

in the problem and the solution you're building?

And I'll tell you like, I get different answers to some people

are like, oh, Scott, I mean, I have more conviction like all

that I've learned all the validation I've received from

customers.

We just haven't figured it out yet.

It's driving me crazy.

We've tried three times and it's still like each product

fails, but I have more conviction than ever before.

And for those people, I'm like, you know what?

You're just in the messy middle stick with it.

You know, this is this is par for the course.

But you know, oftentimes I'll hear you know, honestly, if I

knew now, would I if I knew then what I know now, I would

not have done this.

Like, holy shit.

I am like then quit like your life is short.

You have a great team.

Pivot do something completely different.

If you've lost conviction, you should not be doing what

you're doing in the world of entrepreneurship.

Sometimes there are moments of that, I imagine.

And so there's probably some spectrum of just like how little

conviction and how long you felt that, right?

I think so.

But at the same time, listen, we all have ups and downs.

We all have good days and bad days.

However, I do think that great founders are just they absolutely

know in their core, you know, that something needs to exist

and they will just be ruthless and relentless until it does.

But if you lose that, I actually don't know if you have the

fuel to continue.

So listen, I'm don't you're right.

Don't make a bold decision on a bad day.

But if the conviction generally dissipates, be open-minded

about other options.

You do a lot of angel investing.

Talk to a lot of founders.

What is it that you look for?

What do you think is important for a startup to show you for

it to feel like a good bet that it'll likely work out?

What are some of the important attributes you look for?

I'll talk a few for a few things on team and then a few things

on product.

Perfect.

You know, you know, on team.

I really value founders who listen, you know, who really

learn, who long to shake shit up a bit, you know, and and and

also value the mission that they're on more than the money

that it yields, because I do think that especially during

a period of time where you don't have revenue, you're going

to need to be motivated by something grander and bolder

than revenue.

I also have an allergic reaction to founders that are real

promoters, you know, who are constantly trying to sugarcoat

the truth who, you know, like to gloss over the hard parts.

I've always admired leaders that are optimistic about the

future, but very pragmatic and somewhat pessimistic about

the present.

So the founders that I have like a great sort of chemistry

with are people who are like, this is how big the market is.

This is how amazing this is.

I know this needs to exist, but you know, we've got a lot to

figure out.

There are things that are not working.

We don't have these data sets.

These are the major obstacles we're struggling with.

You know, these are the things that keep you up at night.

Those are real people and you know that in that volatile

middle, you know, messy middle that they're going to

inevitably go through that their team, their investors are

going to have the real truth and they're going to be able to

engage and find solutions.

So I really love finding those types of founders and I and

I'm very wary of kind of the name dropping overly promoting

folks who are unlikely to be able to partner in that way on

the product side.

I am looking for an object model way of thinking about a

product that I am confident the will scale, you know, and as

they as they solve their their problem.

And when I say object model, what I mean is, is it clear

whenever you're seeing the product like how it works,

where you came from, where you're going?

You know, those are the three questions I always ask when

I'm doing product reviews.

It's like, how did I get here?

What do I do now?

And what do I do next?

And I feel like every screen and every product experience,

you should be able to answer those three questions.

Sometimes I'll be talking to a team that says they're design

driven, you know, says that they're building an incredible

product and they'll show me a demo and I'm like, this is all

over the place.

Like there's no clean, clear breadcrumbs and object model

for how this thing works.

How are they ever going to get people through their funnel?

Clearly they don't value this as a core principle and that's

also always a red flag.

And then finally, I just obviously have to believe in

the, in the problem they're solving.

So, you know, those are some of the things I think about.

And you focus primarily on consumer or do you invest

all over the place?

And I'm asking in case people want to reach out and maybe,

hey, Scott, you want to know, I'm pretty agnostic.

I look for product design oriented teams, you know, making

things that need to exist.

Beyond that, I try not to be too prescriptive.

Okay.

Excellent.

Any last words of wisdom that you think it impact the way

people build products in the world, the tens of thousands,

hundreds of thousands of listeners listening.

Is there anything else you want to share before we get to

a very exciting lighting round?

Two quick things, you know, one for the moment that we're in

and then one for why we do what we do.

For the moment that we're in, you know, we're in a resource

constrained environment.

Let's face it, we're all going to have less money, fewer head

count, all that kind of stuff.

And I've always found that resourcefulness, you know, brings

you further than resources, despite the fact that over the

last seven to 10 years, we've basically thrown resources at

every problem.

Oh my gosh, this is not scaling, throw more money at servers.

Oh my goodness.

You know, we need more people on the social media team, throw

more people at head, throw more money at head counts.

Like we, we've had a resources way of solving our problems as

opposed to a, well, let's refactor how we run that database

or let's refactor how that team answers customer service

requests.

Let's bring in new technology to make it more efficient.

Let's leverage and play with AI to see if that can help us.

You know, we are in this area now where we're being forced to

be resourceful and to refactor as opposed to hire and, and

throw resources at problems.

I think that's a great opportunity.

I feel like this is where the best teams are going to build

that muscle that are going to go the distance.

That's why all these VCs say it's so cliche that the best

companies are always built in areas like these.

So my one, you know, my point number one is capitalize on the

crisis, everyone, you know, it's a, if, if, if resources are

cards, resourcefulness is like muscle.

It stays with you.

It makes you stronger and it helps you, you know, have a better,

better intuition, you know, and, and better, better performance

over time.

And then I guess taking a step back, I would just encourage

folks to recognize that, you know, anything, anything amazing

in the venture world is ultimately an exception.

And, and with all the best practices, Lenny that you and I

just discussed and all the stuff that we read in books and

whatever else, I always try to remind myself that, you know,

at the end of the day, sometimes exceptions are the rule when

it comes to doing something truly transformative and that

nothing extraordinary is ever achieved through ordinary means.

And so while we should always like take these best practices

and sure listen to some of the lessons I learned the hard way

and whatever else, but at the same time, if everyone says

you're crazy, you're either crazy or you're really onto something.

So, uh, so take that with a grain of salt.

Love that.

Speaking of extraordinary, I thought it'd be cool to just

give you a chance to talk about what you're doing at Adobe.

What are some of the products that you're working on?

What should folks know about potentially what's happening in

Adobe?

They may not be aware.

Yeah, I know.

Thanks, thanks for asking.

You know, for, for us, I would say there's really three trends

that are driving or three waves of transformation.

I would say that are driving the strategy right now for us.

One is just that people are becoming more creatively confident.

It's kind of wild that we're like most confident as five year

olds creatively when we're drawing and our parents are like,

Oh my God, that's beautiful.

That's amazing.

Let's put it on the fridge and then creative confidence kind of

goes down from there for most adults.

And that's really sad.

And with generative AI and tools, we have something called

the adobe express and market and our gender value offerings

called firefly.

These types of tools make people feel more creatively confident

right away.

It's pretty amazing to see people that would never pick up,

you know, a pen and draw or suddenly feeling confident.

So that's, I would say that's like wave number one, you know,

wave number two that we talked about a little earlier were,

you know, is the fact that creative professionals can now

explore 10 X the surface area of possibility.

These tools are making them so much more efficient and some

people are like, Oh my gosh, creative pros are going to be

replaced.

No, no, no, no, they're not.

They're just going to find 10 X better solutions.

They're going to have that capability to explore more

possibilities.

And that's what makes design great is finding, you know,

exploring more surface area.

And then I would say the third wave that's fascinating to

me is personalization.

You know, I think we talked about this a little bit, like

our apps will meet us where we are.

I think that every marketing experience will be increasingly

personalized for each of us, you know, every commerce

experience, they'll know who we are.

They'll just show us our shoe size and no one else's, you

know, these sorts of transformations will really

change the entire world of commerce and content and

media and everything else.

And Adobe has a big digital marketing business that is

focused on enabling some of that.

So those are, that's really the, those are the factors of

strategy that I would say are driving some of the new products

we have under development.

And, you know, now it's all about let's talk more ship.

I love that you need a banner of that.

It's been amazing to watch Adobe's rise over the last

decade.

It just kind of felt like it was going nowhere and all

of a sudden it's, it's a juggernaut.

And so, um, great work, Scott and everyone else involved.

But with that, we've reached our very exciting lightning

ground.

I've got six questions for you.

We'll try to go through it pretty fast.

Sound good?

Okay.

Sound excited.

Sounds good.

Let's do it.

What are two or three books that you've recommended most

to other people?

First is build by Tony Fidel.

You know, Tony is just an amazing charismatic, deeply

pragmatic product builder.

You know, he, he's been brave enough to do both Adams and

bits as he says.

And, uh, and his book is just chock full, chock full of wisdom.

You know, I do, I do appreciate like some of these kind of laws

of nature laws of power type books.

I love psychology books.

I'm trying to think of some offhand that have really struck

me, but understanding the natural human tendencies of people.

I think the laws of power like talks about tons of wars over

centuries and, you know, what, what, what sorts of natural

human tendencies or inequalities drove, you know, massive

rebellions and revolutions.

These sorts of insights, believe it or not, uh, parlay

into decisions we make in products and making people, uh,

feel successful and productive.

So I don't know.

I love those books just because I think that they remind us

of sort of the limitations and opportunities or possibilities

of humanity.

What is a favorite reason movie or TV show?

What I love is these, uh, documentaries about like the

cosmos and about, um, the sort of the, the edge of our understanding

of black holes and, you know, and what happens out there in

space.

So I don't remember.

I know one is called cosmos on Netflix.

There are a few of them, but in my downtime, I get lost in,

in some series like that.

You have kids, one or plus, one or more kids.

Yes.

What are you doing to help them plan for this future?

I think about this all the time.

You know, what are our, what are our children going to do in a

world where, you know, if you know, if you believe Vinod

Kosla's prediction that 80% of the work of 80% of jobs will

be replaced by AI, what, what will, uh, what will people do?

As we talked about their ingenuity will be unleashed.

That's great.

But ultimately, I always revert back to this one belief that

if people are passionate, they become successful in something.

So I've always just been focused on trying to make sure that

they find something they're super passionate about.

And it doesn't even matter if the thing they find now is the

thing they do later, because I do believe that passion in itself

and taking initiative on your passion is a muscle memory that

once you develop it, you know, I have a daughter who loves

horseback riding.

I don't know if she's going to do horseback riding forever

or whatever, but, uh, I think that the passion that she has

for it, this, and this desire to be better and to constantly

learn more and do more.

That in itself is like a replicable muscle memory.

So, um, I don't know what the future holds, but I believe that

passionate people will always have a path.

Love that.

What's a favorite interview question you like to ask

when you're interviewing people?

There's a real one and there's a snarky one, right?

So the, um, you know, I do, I do love trying to understand if

people are introspective, you know, and, um, and so I like

asking about something people have learned about themselves

that reveal the limitation in how they work.

You know, it's a way for to test like introspection and

when this person hits their limits, uh, or struggles, can

they be open and introspective?

Are they going to blame and point fingers?

So I do ask that.

I also like the question that do you consider yourself lucky?

I think it's a fascinating question because it also, you

know, some people who are super insecure about, you know,

where, where they are and how they got there might decline,

uh, admitting luck, you know, those who are comfortable should

admit that they were lucky.

I mean, I think the truth is we're all very lucky and, uh,

and certainly privileged.

And, you know, I just think that that's always an interesting

conversation.

What's a favorite recent product you've discovered app or physical

product?

Anything that comes to mind?

I've been playing with a product called Q and it's Q, U,

E, U, E, I think, and it's basically a way to keep a Q of

all of this content you want to watch across every streaming

platform and it's because there's so much content across so many

streaming platforms and to make your own Q and then to see your

friend's cues and to see what content is in most of the people

you know is cues.

Like it's actually an incredible graph of kind of stuff that

people want to watch or have liked that.

I think we're going to need in this world where there is just

a billion sources of content.

I'm definitely going to check that out.

I've been looking for an app like that of like I'm sitting it

in the evening.

What the hell should I watch?

I've seen everything that exists on the internet.

So that's awesome.

What's a favorite AI tool that you've recently discovered or

find useful that isn't something Adobe has made?

Okay, well, I'll, um, I will mention if it's okay, like a

product that I did invest in, but, um, it's a product called

Tome and, uh, and they can take a narrative or that you want to

put into a presentation and with AI basically create a, um, you

know, just like a draft of this presentation with imagery and

compelling points.

And it's pretty, uh, it's almost as if you like handed this off

to an intern and said, come back to me with something I can

work with.

And suddenly it's like instantly there.

So, um, that's been like a fun one, a fun one to play with.

I will check that out.

We'll link to that.

Also reminds me, um, Kevin Kelly on Tim Ferriss was talking

about how AI and chat GPT is basically an intern.

That's like the level of their skill right now.

They're just this intern that's helping out with stuff.

I think that's right.

And that's why we have to see it as a resource, but not a

constraint because, you know, again, it's, you know, it's

answering that question.

Like, what would it look like if, uh, as opposed to doing,

you know, true distinct thinking per se?

Scott, this is the first time we've ever chatted, but I feel

like I know you, you are wonderful.

Thank you so much for being here.

Two final questions.

Where can folks find you online?

If they want to reach out, learn more and how can listeners

be useful to you?

Yeah.

No, awesome.

Like listen, thanks Lenny.

And, you know, your, your podcasts and your emails are

probably among my more forwarded, you know, uh, pieces of nuggets

and resources that I send to product teams I work with.

So thank you for elevating the field for all of us, I should

say, and it's an honor to be on this podcast.

I'm easy to find, uh, just Scott Belsky.com or at Scott Belsky

on your favorite favorite social network of choice.

Um, and, you know, implications.com is where I'm writing these days.

And then, you know, and I, I welcome, I welcome folks to share

what they're working on.

You know, I just love taking as much data points as possible.

I love connecting dots for people and making introductions.

I feel like, you know, that can be a contribution to this whole

world of better and better products.

And I, I welcome you to, to reach out.

Awesome.

Scott, and again, thank you for being here.

Thanks Lenny.

Bye everyone.

Thank you so much for listening.

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Machine-generated transcript that may contain inaccuracies.