Between Two Beers Podcast: Jono Ridler: The inside story of NZ's longest swim

On this episode of 22 beers, we talk to Jono Ridler.

Jono is the general manager of a truck transportation business in Auckland, and on the side does

marathon swimming.

Last week he set a new record for New Zealand's longest swim after making it to Campbell's

Bay on Auckland's North Shore on Wednesday night after he set off from Aotea Great Barrier

Island on Tuesday morning.

Jono spent over 33 hours in the water and swam just short of 100km, more than doubling

his previous best ultramarathon swim distance.

In this episode we talk about his epic swim, why he did it and the reaction he's received,

what the training looked like, the hallucinations he had after 80km, why he lost it at his

crew at one point, hour long ice baths and ice swimming, pushing your limits, and so

much more.

The way Jono created a vision for himself which seemed impossible to most, then pulled

it off, captured the imagination of the nation, and his story shows the potential of what's

achievable with the right mindset.

Listen on iHeart, or wherever you get your podcast from, or watch the video on YouTube.

A huge thanks to those supporting the show on Patreon for the cost of a cup of coffee

a month, to get involved, head to www.between2beers.com.

And while you're there, sign up to our new weekly newsletter which has behind the scenes

recaps of each episode.

This episode was brought to you from the export beer garden studio.

Enjoy!

Jono Ridler, welcome to Between 2 Beers.

Thanks fellas, it's good to be here.

Very excited to have you on in the export beer garden studio, been a bit of a week Jono?

Yeah, it has been a bit of a week.

Understatement of the year.

It had a bit on.

So today, timestamping this, Auckland was declared a state of emergency due to the heavy rain

and flooding, and we were worried we might not be able to get you into the studio.

So Shay, old mate Shay over there thinks he's a bit of a gags man, was like, oh, Jono could

just swim over.

That's not what I sound like.

That's not what I sound like.

Or how I deliver it.

And then I heard someone else make the same gag as we were preparing, I guess Jono could

just swim.

Have you heard that a lot today?

Oh, not today, but previously in reference to other, you know, maybe flooding events

or similar.

Yeah.

Old gag.

Oh, sorry mate.

No, that's okay.

Look, a lot of my material gets recycled.

Yeah, Jono will be alright, you can just swim.

Anyway, tell us about the week, man.

You completed, five days ago you completed this epic swim, breaking the record for an

ultramarathon swim in New Zealand, 99 kilometres, is it 99, is it, are we pushing that up to

100?

That's the unofficial distance.

Yep.

But the official distance will be based on a straight line course.

So while I...

That's a long ruler by the way, whoever's going to do that job, who's going to do that

job.

So I think it'll be about 95 is the straight line, so it was a little bit of...

Genuine question.

How do they do the straight line?

Is it like point A of land to point B of land?

Yeah, like latitude, longitude from start point to end point, and we had a couple of

landmarks in the way, so the likes of Little Barrier, and those are considered enforceable

as part of the course.

So they kind of count towards it rather than it being direct route from Kureka Bay through

to Campbell's Bay.

It's the shortest distance between those points, including Little Barrier.

Right, it's a shitload of...

It's a long, long way.

Yeah.

And I feel like my sense of distances after doing my research are just way off, like the...

The Bay swim, I was like, is it 2.8 or 3K from...

Across the harbour.

Yeah.

Back when that was running, it was 2.8.

Yeah, and I'm like, in my mind, I'm like, that's about 20K, easy.

And I'm thinking, fuck, like 99 is a long, long way if that is only 2.8, it's a shit tonne

of swimming to do.

Yeah, it's a pretty far way.

I've heard you do a few interviews in the last few days, so you finished the swim on

Thursday, now we're five days later.

In those interviews, you said the emotion of what you accomplished hadn't really kicked

in yet.

Is there any different now?

It still hasn't really hit home, and you go through this massive rollercoaster in the

lead-up where you're training hard, you probably have a bit of self-doubt, there's like peaks

and valleys as you're going through the training before you even get to starting the thing.

And then all of a sudden you do it, and for me it's been pretty crazy over the last few

days because there's been a lot of public exposure, and people have been really interested

in it, and I haven't really been able to catch a breath in a way.

So no, I haven't really fully reflected and debriefed with myself after the swim, and I

haven't really had any kind of emotional onslaught that I might have thought that I would have.

Yeah, which is interesting because you're an incredibly insightful guy, and we're going

to get into it, but I heard you say in the lead-up that you were emotional and cried

at times with gratitude for the opportunity of the swim.

Is that right?

Yeah, I do a lot of visualisation, and so I'd just be thinking about the swim, particularly

the finish.

It's obvious they're a good part of the swim, and I would literally be crying because it

would just make me so emotional, thinking about that moment.

And this was not doing it.

This was like weeks and weeks before, and it would really get the tears going.

Did the actual emotion of finishing it match the visualisation element that you had?

No, I knew it was going to be a little bit different.

When I actually finished it, it was massive relief, and then eventually pride, but you

know, at that point I was in pretty significant amounts of pain and just happy to stop moving

my arms, really.

Yeah, how was the bod?

Good.

Now, yeah, I've got a few niggles here and there, but I definitely feel like a human

again.

It's a weird thing in a sense, like I'm almost sad that the pain is leaving in a way because

that's like the last physical manifestation of the swim, otherwise it just becomes a bit

of a dream.

It's a memory from here, and obviously we've got like the videos and photos to remember

that it happened, but the experience leaves really quickly, you know.

Wow.

Was it two days in hospital that was pre-planned after the race?

I wasn't pre-planned.

The AMBO at the end was pre-planned, so I always knew that we were going to get into

the ambulance at the end, and I thought I'd just get checked off and then go back home

off the back of that and have a sleep in my own bed, but there was enough to kind of

say, you know, you should be going into the hospital, and it was only one night, so I

spent the night there and got pumped full of fluid and then discharged to about 2.30

the next day.

Was there anyone's responsibility to have a dry set of clothes in that ambulance?

You know what?

I talked about this with Sarah, my wife, after the fact, and she said, we have to sort that

out next time, because, no, we didn't, and I ended up using some of my dad's clothes

in hospital because I didn't have anything.

I just went to the hospital in Toggs, and I still had sand on my face, like…

Gordy, right?

Gordy, Dad?

Gordon, yeah.

Yeah, Gordy.

Gordy, yeah.

Dropped his jeans for you.

I've got it on good authority.

Like, willing to drop his pants and just rock to the hospital in his undies for his son.

He did that.

That's right.

What a guy.

I feel like if you see your son swim 99 kilometres, yeah, you're dropping pants.

Yeah, that's probably the least that you're going to do.

But yeah, I like it.

Those little parts, and we'll get into kind of the logistics and preparation, but those

are all the parts that Joe Bloggs doesn't see.

They just go, wow, that's amazing that he swam all of those kilometres, let alone the

pieces of the puzzle that have to be in place to allow you to even achieve that, which is

incredible.

Really incredible.

Looking forward to delving into that detail.

Personal anecdote, I was trying to play golf today on a day that a state of emergency

was declared.

Jono, you would be amazed how many times this man brings this podcast into his golf space.

Real smart move.

We were out at Mirawai, no one else out there, so we had a couple of coffees and called it

today.

But anyway, when we were discussing who had come up on the podcast, I said, Jono Ridler.

Three of them all knew you.

All different, very different walks of life, they were all buzzing that you were coming

on the podcast.

And I kind of wanted you to reflect on what the last five days have been like, because

it seems like the media exposure and the narrative has really captured the imagination

of Kiwis.

I feel like the story was everywhere, and everyone I've talked to knows about it at

least.

Do you feel like this thing blew up bigger than you could have imagined?

Yeah, like it's just been weird, you know, completely unreal.

Like, we were trying to churn up a bit of public attention, obviously, to bring attention

to the state of the Horaki Gulf, but the levels at which it has gone to has just been completely

beyond anything that I thought we would see, and to the extent that, like you say, people

that had no interest in swimming or no interest in the Horaki Gulf, you know, all of a sudden

they were watching this little red dot go down the map, and, yes, it's still really

hard for me to get to terms with, like, in my head, it's just weird.

But that was, Doc, do you have any theories about why it's resonated so strongly with

people?

I think that people like to see other people doing things that seem not impossible.

I think impossible is the wrong word, but, you know, just kind of beyond comprehension

in a way.

So I think there's that element of it, and then people do really care about our country

and the land and the oceans, and so I think the combination of those two things did pull

people together.

But I could be interested to hear what you guys have to think, like, why you think people

would have been captivated by it.

Steve?

Yeah, I think the first reason.

It seems like an impossible task.

I think people know how hard it is to swim.

If you're not a swimmer, to swim 50 metres, you're exhausted after it.

To think about doing a 10K open water or something is just, like, the hardest thing ever.

So I think people know how monotonous and boring and painful long swimming can be, and

to get inside the mind of someone that's done it for 100 kilometres is just, like,

I've got so many questions I want to ask about, like, how you did that mentally.

I just think that mental toughness is just the most appealing thing to me.

Shay?

Yeah, I think I probably approached it a little bit from the natural environment perspective

where you know deep down in your heart that we should be doing better things.

I've got a bit of a different lens to Stephen in that my mum comes from a Pacific island,

Solomon Islands.

My sister is really involved in traditional vaka and ocean navigation.

So the importance of oceans is something that's on my periphery, but I don't claim to have

any real intimate knowledge of it.

It's just something that's in the horizon.

And then to Stephen's point, when someone like yourself does an incredible feat, you

go, wow, that's amazing.

And then when you realise the cause behind it, you go, wow, I should actually do and

know more about this.

And why does it take an extraordinary feat to bring that back into the lens?

And I was kind of mortified with myself thinking how much I enjoy kai moana and scallops and

crayfish and then in the research to learn that it's almost virtually extinct in the

hodaki Gulf.

Those things, it's like, shit, sustainable fishing and all of those, all of those parts

that you hear talked about in political circles.

They have like a genuine, a real impact on something so close to a lot of people.

We don't live in Auckland.

We live in Hamilton.

But yeah, I think it's just all of those little pieces of the puzzle to go, I do know better

and I should know better and we should be advocating for some of these things.

Yeah, that's interesting.

Yeah.

Good answers.

We'll be right back after this short break.

I want you to take us back to the start and I'm a details guy, so I'm going to provide

some detail here.

OK, so in 2019, you swim the cook straight, takes you six hours, 22 minutes.

Then in 2020, you do Lake Topol, 12 hours, 22 minutes.

In 2021, do the fovo straight, seven hours, 52 minutes.

Then in 2022, you have a postponed double crossing of the cook straight, which meant

a backup return swim to Pornites Island from Matapori Beach, which took you 13 hours and

20 minutes and was 45 kilometres.

Fast forward to this year, where you decide to double that distance.

You've doubled the distance of your longest swim.

So can you take us back to that decision making of why you've taken, why you took on this

impossible task?

I first had the idea for swimming from Great Barrier back to Auckland back in 2019.

So it's something that's been sitting there for a little while.

I just didn't really do anything with it.

I did want to, like cook straight was always the first big goal for me.

And there was never any intention to do anything beyond that.

But naturally, it kind of just evolved into taking on like Topol and then off the back

of that fovo straight as well.

And those three swims collectively are the New Zealand triple crown of open water swimming.

And then, like you say, last year, doing Matapori to the Pornites and back.

So in the background, like I'd always had in my mind that I wanted to do this swim from

Great Barrier back to Auckland.

I've got a connection to Great Barrier Island and it hasn't been, you know, that swim hadn't

been done before.

It seemed pretty like alluring to me to be able to adventure and be the first person

to do that route.

And then last year, I was like, OK, well, now I'm actually going to be like building

up towards this.

I don't have any other goals.

It's time to get a little bit more serious with it and started thinking about it.

And I can't remember exactly how the thought of building it up to 100K came into it.

It seemed like this almost like, again, the word impossible, this massive target that

I wanted to build towards because it was something that scared me.

So I've always tried to lean into these swimmer's things that scare me a little bit, like going

back to Lake Topol.

Can I actually do that distance fovo straight?

Can I swim in that cold temperature and double of cook?

Can I do that?

Because that's hardly been done at all.

And so 100K, it was like, you know, it's a long way.

Is there something that I can actually do?

And it kind of just came about from that, I think, and massive jump up from what I had

done in the past.

But I had a pretty strong self-belief that I could get there.

Is it a case of verbalising it to make this, how did you announce you were going to, did

you tell someone, I'm going to do it, and then did that solidify that you were going

to do it?

I think I wrote about it first, like in my journal, and then I told, I think I might

have told Sarah, my wife, just run it past her.

What was her reaction?

Geez, I can't remember.

On your journal.

She's always been pretty supportive, though, and she kind of gets it now.

She's seen the journey over the last four or five years, and she knows how much it

means to me as a person, and how much it's influenced my journey and evolution as well.

So I think she's always just backed it, and I'm probably the one that has more, like,

voices, more of the doubts at times.

It could be like Sarah, like, 100 Ks is a long way, and she's like, no, no, you can

do it.

Like, just, you know you can do it.

So yeah, she's a really good sounding board for that kind of stuff.

And then I started talking to Live Ocean about it as well, so we had to start committing

to that, and I think that's when it started getting a bit more real.

You know, it was really under wraps for a long time.

I didn't want to tell anybody really, like, what I was training for, but just told, like,

a small inner circle, and then beginning of April it, you know, it went...

Can you talk to us a little bit about that Live Ocean connection, and how that piece

comes into the swim itself?

Yeah.

So, going back to last year, and when I was looking at doing the swim, I really did want

to make it something that was bigger than me, something that was more meaningful, that

would draw attention to something other than myself, and really using that as a platform.

And I had seen the work that Live Ocean was doing, and really liked it.

Like, I've spent a lot of time in the water swimming, and so I have been able to see first

hand the degradation of our oceans, and specifically the Odukki Gulf.

Yeah, I guess we can go into that in a little bit more detail later, but I targeted Live

Ocean through one of my mates, Olaf, and he was able to set up that connection.

And they were just, yeah, they were fully behind it.

You know, it was something that was a bit unique to them, but they really liked the

idea of, you know, what I kind of had envisioned, and then they took it to the totally the next

level in terms of the public engagement and getting that exposure.

I actually spoke to Olaf in preparation for this, and I asked him, you know, what's

Jono like?

And he said, I don't even know Jono outside of swimming.

And it's an amazing kind of element to this journey that, and we'll get into, it was just

the point I wanted to make now, is that the swimming community is a really interesting

community, right?

I imagine you spend a lot of your time in the water, and then you don't have a lot of

time to kind of chat on land, right?

Because you might have a coffee afterwards, but when everyone else is having a coffee,

you're probably still in the water training for one of these mammoth swims.

Yeah, I mean, when I'm deep in the training, it's pretty solo, it's pretty on my own.

You spend a lot of time just, like, breathing and looking up to the person next to you, but

you do create pretty strong bonds just doing that, given if there's not a lot of talking.

So, yeah, the coffee's afterwards are priceless, though.

But once you put this out into the world, is there a buzz through that community of,

Jono's thinking about doing 100K, he's thinking about doing this 100K great barrier to, you

know, do you think he's going to be able to do it?

Like, does it spread through that community?

Yeah, I think so.

Like, everybody's always pretty interested in what anybody else is doing.

You know, like I hear whispers about what people in, like, Wellington are doing in

Christchurch and, like, Wanaka and that kind of thing.

Yeah, it's cool to follow.

Cool to follow everybody's progress.

And I think in this case, it transcended a little bit beyond just the marathon swimming

community and kind of into the broader open water swimming community, yeah.

So you decide you're going to do 100K, you set a date, which I'm assuming is to do with

tides and things like that.

The training program, I'm imagining you're not doing anything close to 100K swims in

training, but how many kilometers are you doing per week?

How many hours per day are you in the pool in the buildup to this?

Well, I had this lovely training program that I'd put together, so I'm self-coached and,

you know, I do that based on just research that I gather from other swimmers and their

experiences and what they've done.

And I had this lovely training program that saw me build up gradually to 100K per week for

three weeks and then tapering off for, you know, two to three weeks.

And that was a build over, I think six months or something like that.

And was following that to the letter for probably the better part of about three or

four months until I got injured.

And so that was going perfectly and a lot of work in the pool, like, you know, swimming

Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, 10K per day, and then doing some work in the ocean as well.

And yeah, then I got injured, I was out for December and Jan with a shoulder injury.

We reset the window.

And then from there, it was a bit of a mix of gym work and mostly long swim,

swims in the ocean, which made up the training.

So I had to kind of adapt things a little bit after, after that injury.

What's a long swim?

What do you consider a long swim in the ocean?

So the plan was for the second part was that I would build up from three hour back-to-back

swims.

So, you know, three hours on a Saturday, three hours on a Sunday to,

I think it was ultimately building up to 12 hour back-to-back.

It wasn't quite what I've intuated, but, you know, doing three hours back-to-back,

four hours back-to-back, five hours, six hours, eight hours, nine hours, 10 hours,

and then three eight hour swims and a row of Easter weekend.

And that was, that was across both the pool and ocean at times.

So sometimes like over Easter weekend, for example, I did eight hours in the pool

on Friday, eight hours in the pool on Saturday, then two a.m. to 10 a.m. in the ocean on the Sunday,

and then went back for another four hours on, on the Monday.

Have you got an incredibly understanding employer?

Because you've got quite a high, you've got quite a very good job, and 12 hours in the ocean.

I'm fucked up for an hour session in the gym and then having to go to work.

No, but like, how are you fitting it?

How are you doing it?

Other things kind of sacrificed as, you know, as I go through the training journey.

So work is, you know, I make sure that that doesn't get impacted.

And then the things that probably naturally fall off, like social events,

not getting as much like rest and recovery.

But, you know, there's still a lot of hours in the day.

You know, you can, if you work 50 hour a week, you can still do a hell of a lot of stuff around

that.

I love the eyeballing me as well.

And I'm like, I'm shrinking into my seat going, he's right.

He's actually right.

Like the amount of time I waste scrolling through social media and I could be doing an open ocean

swim.

What would be the earliest time that you would start these swims?

Is it, you know, like, are you like two a.m. in the morning to sort of eat into your morning?

I mean, that's over the weekend, right?

So I wouldn't do that over the, on like a weekday.

Not on a school night.

Yeah, yeah.

So, yeah, two a.m. I think that was the earliest start.

I did one swim overnight, like starting in the evening after it was like a Friday.

And I just finished that work, went home, got my food together, drove out to Takapuna,

got my stuff ready and then started swimming and didn't stop until the next morning.

And like, we'll talk about the importance of a support crew a little bit later on.

But for those training swims, you haven't got a like a kayak person next to you

supporting you on that either.

So is it just leave a note?

Hey, Sarah, off on another swim at Takapuna Beach.

See you in the morning and just hope that you come back like flipping aside.

But like it's, do you have to put checks and balances in place to ensure your safety as well?

Yeah, like I'd tell her, you know, these are the hours that I'm going out for.

If I'm not home by this time, you can probably get worried.

I'll give you a call, you know, around this time.

Personal Located Beacon, have you got one of those on you?

No, I don't.

So it's pretty simple when I'm going out and doing those long ocean swims at night.

I'm going out with a tow float, which is like a little inflatable kind of balloon in a way.

And that has capacity for one bottle in it.

And I'd have some liquid feeds in the back of that.

And then the rest of my liquid feeds I'd have under my cut.

So I'd park my car on the Takapuna boat ramp.

Wow, this is great.

I'd have, you know, just swim up and down the beach from 2am, 3am, whatever it is.

Have my have my drinks.

And then once that the bottle in my tow float is used up, I'd go back to my car,

swap it out, and then get back in the water.

So, you know, like a minute or two into change between.

But it just keeps it, it kept it simple.

You know, I didn't have to jack up mates to try and join me at silly o'clock in the morning.

Right, because in my, again, in my rudimentary mind, I'm thinking you're

swimming like miles out into the middle of the harbour and then coming back again.

But you swim parallel, like a long parallel to the beach.

Okay, you got it.

Okay, I feel safe.

I feel safe again for you now.

Okay, so the training's all done.

You're all set.

We went out on Wednesday morning, right?

Tuesday morning.

Tuesday morning.

So I was, yeah, about eight hours into eight hours or so into the swim at this point.

Okay, take us to Monday night.

So the night before you're starting, what are you thinking about?

Are you feeling nervous or excited or anxious or what's gone through your head?

Did you sleep much that night?

I can take you probably a few days before then because, you know, that's part of the

journey and some of the emotional rollercoaster as well was trying to pick a weather window

or like some dates that we could actually do this thing on because the wind was howling

and we just said these strong northerlies, we still kind of have them at the minute.

And while we had picked this window of April 25th to May 5th, there was no guarantee around

getting any kind of calm wind in that period.

And so if you can imagine, like there's been all this media, we've got bloody billboards and

all the training and like really put it out there.

And then the weather was totally out of my hands and yeah, just massive levels of anxiety because

of that lack of control.

And that was probably for about two weeks before the swim actually have ventuated because I was

checking the wind forecast on, you know, predict wind and windy like 12 times a day.

Yeah, wow.

To try and see, you know, are we going to be able to get a window for this?

And we finally, you know, it was kind of becoming clear that on maybe the Friday before that maybe

there would be an opportunity on the Tuesday, Tuesday, Wednesday, we knew that Tuesday would be

good and then Wednesday would be muck.

And it was just whether that was something that we'd be able to accept or not.

And then, you know, fast forward to Sunday and I'm sitting on the or lying down on the

massage table having a call with the co-skippers of the boat and making a decision on whether

to actually go ahead or not based on the wind conditions.

And I said, oh, you know, it's coming out.

Are you comfortable with it, Jono?

And I said, yeah, like, you know, let's go because it didn't look like there was going to be

any other opportunity and we just kind of had to take it.

And from that point of move from, you know, more anxiety to excitement,

like the emotion switched kind of immediately in that moment, really.

And so we activated the crew and headed out the next morning.

And, you know, going out the next morning, there was still like three meter swells and

like really strong winds and we're going into it on the boat and all the swimmers

on the boat were just, you know, pretty green and not having such a good time myself included.

The sailors were, you know, they were totally fine.

But I was like, wow, like, this is, yeah, this is, this is a pretty big sea state.

So that night before you did get like a full night's light, did the build up of what was

happening affect your sleep the night before?

No, fortunately not.

It was pretty good, actually.

Like I have had that before where I just haven't been able to sleep.

And I was Topol, Lake Topol.

Yeah, that was terrible.

Yeah, I got 90 minutes sleep before doing a 40k swim.

It's just, yeah.

I think because I had to wake up, like we started the swim at 3.30.

So I had to wake up at, I don't know, 1.30 or something like that for that one.

But do you have like a ritual, like a pre, you know, like team sports,

they people have, I put my left boot on before my right boot or I listened to this.

Do you have a pre swim ritual that you follow to the letter or try to follow to the letter

to get you into the zone or is everything treated differently based on its merits?

Yeah, that's interesting.

No, I don't really have anything that's conscious.

Maybe there's some unconscious things that I do in the leader.

Yeah, stuff that you avoid eating?

Not having too heavy of a meal before.

You know, at that point, you're not really going to get any benefit out of

having like a big pasta dish or something like that.

Yeah, okay.

So you take off Tuesday morning.

Yeah.

Are there little, in your head, are there little checkpoints that you know, like

you'll be fine to 10k, you'll be fine to 20k, you've done 40k before.

Is it kind of on autopilot in those early stages?

Like that's all in control.

It's the later part that's going to be challenging.

I try not to think too much about the larger distance and just

really stay in the moment and not, I think, chunking it up, even though in my mind,

I kind of knew, you know, to a little barrier is going to be about 20k and then

to car well is going to be another, you know, 25k or something like that.

And then Tiri Tiri's is like 20k to the end.

And so I knew these things in the back of my mind.

So that was hard to avoid, but it was really trying to stay on autopilot and

just stay in the moment as much as I could.

So that, you know, the idea of, oh, I've got, you know, 90k to swim.

I've done 10k, that's great.

But I've got 90k to swim.

That's a long way that that wouldn't kind of mess with my head.

And what's the support crew's job?

Like at what points are you ever like stopping and treating water for a bit and eating?

Like, does that happen a lot?

Yeah.

So we had planned feeds every 40 minutes.

And the crew, so there's, there were 16 people on the crew

and three shifts across the support boat, the support boat that was alongside me.

And that would always have one observer, one feeder and one driver.

And the, you know, one of the responsibilities of the feeder or support on that little boat

next to me, this, you know, four-meter tender is to chuck out food every 40 minutes.

And most of that was liquid feeds.

We did add a little bit of solid in the mix as well.

But, you know, during that time, you're just treading water.

You're not grabbing onto the boat or doing any of that to abide by the rules.

And did your foot, did your foot hit something in those early stages that you weren't sure what it was?

Around a little barrier.

Did my foot hit something?

Or did something hit you?

I remember hitting a stick, you know, just, yeah, it made me leap a little bit in the dark.

Yeah, that would scare the shit out of me.

Like, I'm bad.

I'm bad in the water, in the dark, in a swimming pool, let alone in the open ocean.

Like, I know you've done FOVO straight and people talk about great white sharks and bits

and pieces like that, but yeah, is that sort of, is that just like someone gives you a jump scare

in the middle of the night?

Like, if you, if you bump into something in the ocean like that,

is that the kind of scare that it is?

Or is that like, fuck, there's something here, park it out of your mind.

What does that look like?

I think for that one, it was a bit weird because I wasn't expecting there to be anything,

let alone like some drift that I was swimming into.

If it's seaweed, I think it's kind of par for the course, you expect that.

And I don't really get impacted by that at all of, you know, swam through jellyfish and that kind of thing.

And that, you know, if it happens, it's a bit of a bugger, but it's not like I'm,

that is kind of shocked by it anymore.

You know, so I think it is either that sensation has been dulled like the shock of,

oh, you know, there's something's just touched me.

But in this case, I just, I totally wasn't expecting it.

And yeah, it got me.

Take us into the mind, because I mean, this is the part I'm most fascinated about.

The mental control of you saying you're not thinking about distances,

you're just, I'm guessing, very present.

Like, do you have techniques or strategies to, to repetitively do the same thing for so long?

Yep.

So I think first off is, is that when I'm training, a lot of that is mental training

as much as anything else, like these, you know, eight hour swims, especially in the pool,

it's really about not letting my mind take over and put me in that negative space.

And so that gives me a lot of opportunity to, to develop the tools that I can use for later.

And one of the most simple ones is if my brain starts getting into this bad space because,

or mine, I'll let, I'll let it run a lot of the time, right?

Because it's kind of, it kind of entertains me, just whatever thoughts come up,

you know, I'll let that come through until such a time as it, as it gets negative.

And then as soon as it gets negative, I bring it back to the present.

And the easiest way to do that is just through counting.

And yeah, just counting over and over and over again, until you get back into that flow stage,

and then everything's good again.

Do you count up to a certain number or do you just keep counting?

Most of the time I just count to two, one, two, one, two.

Yeah. Yeah.

Wow.

And you're that confident with these strategies that you knew you were going to be okay?

Yeah, I guess I've used them enough and, you know, they've served me pretty well so far.

I've had enough experience with doing these long swims that the mental sides,

yeah, it wasn't anything that I had any doubts around, I guess.

Do you practice stuff like meditation outside of the water?

Yes, I do actually, yeah.

Yeah, is it a daily habit for you or a daily pillar?

In an ideal world.

It used to be, like I did it pretty solidly for probably about seven years or so.

And just recently, over the last six months, I've been a bit lazy with it.

But yeah, that helps as well.

So that ability to let your mind wander and then just bring it back into.

Yeah, yeah.

And just to be aware of what's going on as well,

you know, because a lot of the time, if you're not aware, it can take you places that you

don't necessarily want to go to, especially over a long period of time.

I'm fascinated as well by those regular breaks.

What's the vibe or the atmosphere like in that feeding kind of treading water period?

Are people trying to rack you up, keep you calm?

Are you looking for support from externals?

Is each break different?

Is it like a boxing fight where, you know, like a little pep talk?

Yeah, exactly.

Like that sort of stuff.

Like, is that what it's like?

Depends on the stage.

I did ask the crew to give me a little bit more encouragement.

And yeah, from there, you know, every time I pop my head up, like great work, you know.

And that helps because otherwise, I am in my own head for a lot of it.

The, toward the latter stages of the swim, there were some more, I guess,

straightforward conversations between me and the crew.

Which way?

Or both ways?

Oh, both ways.

Right.

Yeah, because I was getting, I guess, a little bit impatient and exhausted.

And, you know, I unfortunately took some of that out on the crew and they managed to

wrangle me back into a good headspace.

Well, can you give us an example of that?

Like, what do you mean you would take it out on the crew?

Would you just give them a bit of attitude?

Why don't you get in the fucking water and do it then?

Got any idea how far I've been swimming?

I think one line in particular, I remember I was like,

they were telling me to do something and I'm like, I'm buggered.

Like, I've been swimming for 30 hours.

Give me a break kind of thing.

But yeah, I'm quite ashamed that I took some of it out on the crew.

I feel like after 30 plus hours, you've got some leeway to fire some verbal salvos at some

people if they're encouraging for you to get a little bit more.

Did I hear right that there was like a hype playlist that was supposed to be played at some

point as well?

Like a curated group of tracks to kind of, was that for the whole 30 hours or was that

just a little short period of time?

Oh, that playlist was probably like an hour's worth of content.

But yeah, the intent was that if things got to a bad place that you could use those,

I used those songs when I was training in the gym, for example, and there was like quite a

mental cue that was associated with them.

Love that.

Yeah.

And so over time, I managed to build up like a really positive emotion with these songs.

But I just didn't hear any of that.

I think they played them, but...

Can you give us a little taster of what might be on that playlist?

Is it a publicly available playlist on Spotify that people can upload themselves to a long

distance film or support group?

Yeah, what's on it?

Okay.

This might surprise people.

There's this song by 36 in St Mars, if you know the band.

And it was the same song that I listened to when I left the country for Canada.

I was moving overseas for a short period of time for six months.

And I played that in the plane and it was like bawling my eyes out.

And so I had this really kind of positive association with that song.

And that was one that, you know, when things got tough, when I was doing like a really hard

gym workout or I was blasting myself on the stationary bike or something like that,

that would really, you know, pick me up a bit.

I love that.

I love that you've attached memories and moments to those songs.

It's awesome.

What else have you got on there?

A bit of Justin Timberlake cry me a river.

Good.

Yeah.

Yeah, good.

Some flume.

Yeah, a few other kind of pick me up to rudimental and the like.

Yeah.

This is such a classic shake question that they normally fall flat,

but that produced some real gold.

So well done.

But genuinely, is that available?

Can people like download that?

I'll share it with you later.

Yeah, please do.

I'm like, music's my thing.

Music's my jam.

I really like it as you can possibly tell by my enthusiasm to delve around.

And we'll be right back after this short break.

The mental psychology, whatever it is of swimming at night,

like, is it different?

Are you able to stay as in control at night as you are in the day?

Yeah.

One of one of my concerns coming into the swim was just from a physical perspective,

could I stay awake for the duration?

And that was totally fine from a psychological perspective.

I personally really enjoy swimming at night.

It's really peaceful.

You know, it's just, yeah, there's not a lot to distract you from what you're doing.

It's really just you and the water.

And especially when you're out in the middle of the ocean

and you don't have the city lights, the city glow,

yeah, it's an amazing experience.

It must be an incredible time when you've swum through the night and the sun is rising.

Like, is that a really special part of the journey?

Yeah, massive boost, psychological boost to have that.

It wasn't like there was this amazing sunrise, unfortunately,

because it was more like rain and cloud.

But no, it's definitely a boost because I think as much as anything I knew,

yeah, like we've got through the night,

we've got through a good chunk of the swim now,

and now it's like now it's business end.

Yeah, go ahead.

So I was going to say speaking of weather,

like it's three meter swells and some of the support crew are spewing and feeling dog shit.

How different is it for you in the water?

Are you also feeling dog shit with being on the rolling waves and stuff like that?

Because we gather that some of the medical support were like injecting some of the support crew

with like anti-nausier stuff in those swells as well.

I heard about that later and that kind of amused me,

like the imagery of my friends having their pants pulled down and just injected.

It's quite funny to me.

Meanwhile, in the water, I was fine.

Like I wasn't getting any kind of motion sickness at all.

Right.

Yeah, I think you can just manage it a little bit better when you're in it

and what you're seeing actually matches up with what you're physically experiencing,

because when you when you get motion sickness is where the two don't quite align.

And I think that that's where it's harder when you're on a boat, for example.

Take us to the home straight, maybe 80 kilometers in where, I don't know,

I guess you're starting to feel like you're close.

Do you, I don't know if you know at all times like how close you are to the finish,

but do you remember again mentally, I think I've heard you say on some interviews that

you were kind of in and out of consciousness.

I'm not sure if that's the right word, but you're hypothermic.

Like do you remember it being a real struggle in those last periods?

Yeah, big, big physical and mental struggle, I think.

After, well, even before Turrituri passage, like it was getting quite difficult mentally.

I had hoped to be at a certain point based on the tides.

And when I heard that we were outside of the passage and the tide was changing,

I knew that we were probably about five K or so behind where I hoped we would be.

Terrible idea.

I shouldn't have even mapped it out in the first place.

But and I kind of, I didn't, but I created this expectation in my mind,

but that set up a little bit of a negative headspace.

And so I carried that forward a little bit through that period.

And then as soon as I started seeing landmarks that were familiar to me,

so the likes of the Gulf Peninsula and Long Bay, for example,

I got a much stronger sense of where I was.

And you might think that that would actually be exciting to me because I'm coming close.

But I think it was actually, it had the opposite effect.

Because I just, I really wanted to get there at that point.

And I think if I'd almost closed my eyes, I would have been better off

because I wouldn't have had that relativity to where I was.

I think when night, when night eventually came, and we were again behind where I thought we

might have been because we'd said, you know, 30 to 35 hours will probably finish around then.

I said 35, but I was actually in my head, I was thinking 30 hours.

I had this rough gauge, like it's been about this period of time.

I didn't know exactly because I didn't want the crew to tell me.

I said, don't tell me how far I've gone or time that I was kind of calculating it in my head.

So we had already passed that time and mentally that kind of got to me a little bit.

And then the conditions started whipping up and my legs were just bloody sore as anything

and shaking and they were dragging behind me and my upper body was in a pretty bad way as well.

And then I start hallucinating and so it all kind of came together for those last,

I think it was probably the last three or so hours where we got really tough and

that's when we actually started looking at, okay, well, can we finish it?

Naroneck, which was the original landing point.

And then when that got revised, and I didn't quite know that at the time,

like I was really just trying to put one arm in front of the other and just keep going and

really trying to stay on task. But it got revised to Takapuna and they told me,

I asked, which was a bit silly, I said, where are we going?

They said, just head toward that red light over there. And that was Takapuna,

which was like the revised landing point. And it was just so far away.

Like, yeah, in my head, I calculated it would probably take another three or so

hours or, yeah, there are there about some to get there across a pretty short distance,

which is based on the ebb tide and how I was feeling at the time. And it was super disparaging.

But, you know, I was getting some really good advice from the crew.

One of my good buddies, Mark, he was on the line to Phil Rush, and he said,

just take it bay by bay, you know, just just chunk it down like just keep going basically.

And but don't look at the wider distance.

Was there any part of you at any time that seriously considered packing it in?

Only at the start, funnily enough.

Really?

Yeah, after about 20k or so. Because I had some really bad gut distress.

And I think that that was a mixture of the anti-inflammatory pills that I was taking with,

potentially with the food. And I got some pain around then as well. And I thought, if I've got

this now, if I'm cramping up now, if I've got gut distress now, it's going to be hard to hold

that for the next 80k or so. And had some doubts then. And then at the end, I think I was just so

out of it. I was just like it was machine like, you know.

Yeah, you said you had hallucinations.

Yes.

Do you, what does that mean? Do you remember them?

Yeah.

What was it?

I had a few in particular that I remember like, I think at that stage you were,

and I've never experienced hallucinations before like ever. So it was quite fun for me in a way.

But it was also very surprising. And on the support boat next to me, one of my mates was

wearing a white puffer jacket, which I found out later. But I was seeing a snowman. So I was

turning and I was seeing a snowman. I guess because your brain just equates like the two images to

be something similar. And one of my other buddies, Mark, who was on the boat,

I saw him in a potato suit.

Weird time for that, Mark.

Just on the snowman.

Was it the traditional carrot nose and little twig hands on the snowman? Like,

did you make out that level of detail?

There was like a twig pointing forward and that might have been Jamie's arm or something.

I have no idea.

I really want to know about the carrot nose though. Was it a,

or not enough detail on the recollection?

Yeah, I can't remember.

All right. And then do you snap out of that? And then you consciously

aware that you were just hallucinating and then you're back?

No, I don't think it's so much that you can control it so much at that stage.

The hallucinations just happen. And you're like, okay, well, I don't think that's real.

But then, you know, I kept on seeing stuff.

And you get to the hospital and you're like, hey, guys.

It's a funny question.

I know this might sound crazy, but why the fuck was that snowman on the support crew for just

that little period of time?

Like, I don't even know what an hallucination would actually look or feel like.

Like, it seems like one of those things that you'd make sense of later on in the piece.

But I guess when you're in the middle of it, it's just weird.

Yeah, it's just like, it kind of comes out of nowhere.

Another one that I had was seeing solar panels on the water.

And when I saw it, I was like, okay.

It's a bit weird, but then it almost kind of made sense because of, you know,

maybe ripples on the water or something like that.

Like just your brain associating like images.

I know you mentioned just before you spoke about your kind of, your lost,

you got a bit angry with your crew at some point.

When you're recalibrating and you've got that sense of shit,

it's still another three or four hours.

Does Anger boil up inside you?

Or do you have to push that down and just,

I don't know, to use a boxing term,

bite down on the mouth guard and just go for it?

Yeah, I think I was pretty frustrated, you know, and maybe some of that was

good energy as long as I channeled it towards the right direction.

I really did lean on my crew quite a bit there to give me some good words

because I wasn't getting myself back to that positive headspace.

So it was a bloody good thing that they were able to give me some good words

and actually be quite firm with me.

And that sent me rice and then eventually I kind of got out of my own head

and just went back to, you know, machine.

Yeah, and the self-control as well to either not try harder to get there sooner

to slip back into that machine type movements is incredible control as well.

Yeah, I don't think I would have had enough energy to go in a fury space.

Yeah, true, true.

Okay, so home straight now.

How far out did you allow yourself to like,

do you celebrate it before you get to the shore?

Do you, is it like a kilometer out?

You're like, holy shit, I've done this.

So when the decision was made to go into Campbell's Bay,

and that was a safety decision based on the, you know, the size of the waves

and just basically that there wasn't any suitable landing spot for the next couple of k,

I think as soon as that was made in my head, I started not celebrating,

but I was starting to get a little bit of that sense of relief at that point.

And then I still had, you know, I still have a little bit of work to do to get into the beach

and get past the waves, get past the breakers and be able to stand up and walk past the water line

myself unassisted before, you know, this one's actually marked as complete.

So, you know, I don't think there was like a pre-celebration of any kind.

And again, I was, I was just out of it, you know, it's just super dazed and, and yeah.

Does it feel weird having the earth underneath your feet again after so long?

Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.

I mean, if you guys have seen the video of me exiting the water,

like your legs are all over the place.

Yeah, like a big night out.

Hey, yeah, yeah.

So for those that don't know, there are certain like rules for this to be considered a record,

right? Like no, that's touch the boat. No one can assist you.

I'm making that one up.

But what you've got to walk past the water line once you touch, touch down on the beach.

Are there any examples of people that have gone for these record attempting swims

and they've done like a huge distance like that, but then they haven't been able to actually walk

past the line?

They've done the old Craig Barrett for those that can remember the Commonwealth Games,

where he just could not physically do it.

He was a walker that was miles out of here and then just so close to the end, just done.

Wow.

Absolutely done.

Yeah, there's no examples that come to mind.

So you weren't worried about the actually the walking part after your legs have been

sort of numb for so long?

I didn't really think about it until until it was happening.

And then it seemed okay.

My backup was to crawl out, but didn't have to.

How far is that?

How far is that from the water line to where you actually need to get to?

Is there a standard distance?

And then if like the tide's out, you're like, ah, I've got to go further now.

Yeah.

Yeah, just basically where the water comes up to, right?

Yeah.

Right.

Okay.

And then, okay, so you walk out and how many people are there?

I bring you home.

At this point, the snowman, Mr. Patato here, and about 50 other people.

There might have been on the beach, like again, memory at this point, probably not so great,

but maybe 10 or so people.

I heard afterwards that there were a lot of people that were expecting it to be at Takapuna.

And so people were lining up to see me in there or even the more optimistic types at Naronek.

So there weren't too many people there.

Some people were following in their cars going from Bay to Bay,

kind of just following the red lights on the IRB,

which was out to see and using that to mark where to go.

So my buddy Aaron, who took that video, he was one of those.

But within a pretty short space of time, this was after I got an ambulance,

there were a bunch of people there.

I didn't get to see them, but yeah, just like I saw some of the images afterwards.

It was insane.

It's got to be a surreal time.

I'm assuming these other long-distance swims you weren't in as bad a state at the end.

Like was this a lot worse than those other ones?

Yeah, like I've definitely felt physically in quite a bit of pain at the end of other long-distance swims.

Topo, I lost my legs at the end of that one.

But I still managed to eat my Vegemite sandwich at the end of it and not go into a hospital and

cook straight.

So I had some really bad kidney pain and I pissed blood back later.

But again, I wasn't in hospital or anything like that.

So it was kind of next level in terms of the physical sensations.

And how long after you finish, are you able to appreciate what you've done?

Is it when you're in hospital with the IV dripple linked up, or was it straight away?

In the ambulance, I did get a real sense of pride, of just what we had done,

pride for both my efforts and the crew's efforts.

I was there with Ivan, Marcel, who were part of the crew, and my wife, Sarah.

And they were asking, what are your thoughts or something to that effect?

I was really proud.

Hard to say that I was feeling anything else.

Well, obviously physical pain, but yeah.

We've done a 96 hour fast in the past.

And coming back to eating solid foods is like a gradual process.

Is that the same for you post-event?

Like how soon are you gnawing down on solid food afterwards?

And second part to the question, have you got to go to meal after you've done one of these long

swims? You mentioned Vegemite sandwich a second ago, but is that like have you got a little

mouth to burger fuel or something? Really enjoy it.

This time it was, and it has been quite hard coming back, because there was just so much

salt water that passed through my mouth, through the course of that 33-odd hours.

And my throat was super raw.

Like I'd really struggled to eat anything.

And my tongue, it's been really interesting.

It's completely lost its top layer, and it's just regenerated.

So it's been painful for me to eat for probably the last four days or so since exiting.

It's only coming right now.

But straight away in the hospital, I was just chowing down yogurt,

because that was about all that I could eat without it being that painful.

And if I had my own way, it would be pizza all the way.

That's the best kind of after this one.

I think they still come in the pizza store.

I had some sales pizza afterwards, a few days afterwards.

We'll be right back after this short break.

Just for the swim nerds, is your technique perfect?

I mean, I'm assuming that over the long distance, any little abnormality in your technique is just

going to get found out.

So are you just like, is your form on point?

And you don't really kick much in these long distance swims, right?

It's just all arms and upper body?

My technique is definitely not perfect.

If you look at like a nice pool swimmer, you know, they've got amazing technique, right?

They just move through the water effortlessly.

But it's very different when you're doing, say, like a 400 meter freestyle event versus,

you know, 100K swim, you do apply a different technique.

Some of that is wanting to put less pressure on your joints and have something that can be

sustainable for a long period of time.

So I've got a very, I don't know, a unique style.

I don't think it's a bad technique by any means.

If you look at it, it's relatively pleasant to watch.

Doesn't look like completely like I'm flailing.

I did get found out somewhat technically.

So, you know, you can see I'm wearing this wrist brace at the minute on my right wrist.

And the reason for that is because my pinky goes up probably three centimetres or so each

time I take a stroke on my right hand and you do that 50,000 times.

And yeah, it's painful.

So that's the technical deficiency that I'm really working on.

How would you go, sorry about the kicking thing?

The kicking, yeah.

You just do little kicks, right, just to keep your float?

Yeah, just a two-beat kick.

So every stroke has a kick that accompanies it.

And the reason for that is so that you sit better on top of the water

and that you're minimising your drag, basically.

I don't get a lot of power out of my kick or I try not to put too much effort into my kick

because I find I get better purchase out of my upper body.

My question is going to be, how would you go in like a long distance pool competition?

Would you go, okay, is your style of swimming translate into like

national pool swimming champs?

Like a 1500 metre kind of distance?

No, I'm fast-ish, but I'm not like competitive pool swimming fast.

Yeah, it's again, rudimentary novice understanding thinking like, yeah,

this guy must be able to kick some ass in those long distance pool swims,

but I guess they're very, very different.

I do all right in the ocean swim events.

And typically placed pretty well in those.

That's a little bit different again because you're, it's almost like a sprint,

even if it's 3K, very different kind of energy system that you're using over that time

where it's more anaerobic versus over 100K swim.

It's super aerobic, you know, you don't ever want to get past that aerobic threshold

because the buildup of that lactate over that period of time

would just be debilitating.

It's mind-blowing.

It's been, that's been so captivating.

Yeah, that's, that's so, so, so thank you for coming on and sharing with us.

But when you achieve something like that, there's a bigger purpose at place.

And I want you to talk a little bit about the why,

because this is driving you to write the live ocean stuff.

So can you tell us like why the Hauraki Gulf is in such a bad way

and why it was so important for you to do this in that day?

Yeah, so the Hauraki Gulf, I've got a really strong connection to, you know,

I've been born and raised in Auckland and spent a lot of time both growing up

and more recently in the Hauraki, swimming up and down the coast and around the islands.

And I've been able to have some like really special experiences out in the Hauraki.

And yeah, that's, that's been amazing.

But there, I think what I've seen over time and particularly so as I've spent more time swimming

is the, that the difference between like a healthy ocean,

which I've seen in other parts of the country.

And what I'm seeing in the Hauraki is just really obvious now.

And that's, you know, that's my experience based on what I'm seeing,

but it's backed up by a lot of research, what the scientists are saying as well.

So, you know, some of the things that I've seen in which there's research behind,

so canterbarons, we've just had a massive increase in canter taking over kelp forests,

because they don't really have the functional predators in the ecosystem

anymore that they previously did have.

And so that has like a cascading effect to all of the other marine life

that relies on kelp forests as well.

We've got massive increase in sediment in the water,

because we're just pumping stuff out off land into the Hauraki.

It's like a, like a disposal system in a way.

Fish stocks have decreased massively.

Yeah, there's a few other ones, but I think those are the main ones that kind of

I've seen myself and experienced myself.

And so as an ocean swimmer, as an ocean lover,

somebody who spends a lot of time in the water,

I, in seeing this, I did really want to do something myself

and felt like I could contribute towards it to add my voice, whatever,

however big or small that was, to bring people into that story,

to make people aware of it, because a lot of people aren't aware of it.

And it's only really by dint of me being in the ocean

and having spent that amount of time in there that I really got an appreciation for it.

And so that really motivated me to just want to drive,

or see what I could do to drive some positive action, you know.

You've done a fantastic job of bringing awareness to this.

What can people do?

What is someone listening to this?

What can they do to help?

Yeah, it's a really good question because it can feel like it's

a lot of the power that's actually going to drive the action is centralized in our government.

So for the average person, it's something that, you know,

they might feel a bit powerless to in a sense.

But the biggest thing that I think I'd ask is that you remain aware of it.

You talk to your local MP about it.

You raise your voice in whatever way you can and you share the message

because the more people that share the message,

the more collective voice we can raise,

the harder it is to ignore with any kind of change that's been brought about.

By the people, it's when it becomes that.

It's when it's something that can't be ignored anymore.

I think I saw an Instagram post today that you were heading to parliament or going to parliament.

Have I got that right?

Next step, the behind was the LinkedIn sign off.

It was a kind of aspirational, you know, like that's what we're pushing for.

To try and drive some action, you know, and actually take the next step,

which is having those conversations with the people that can make the decisions.

Can I loop back to one of those positive experiences that you've had in the ocean?

And that was some amazing footage I saw of you swimming with a manta ray.

Like, was that a particularly, I don't put words in your mouth,

like a spiritual or just an, like, how did that, one,

how did that come about?

And two, how amazing was that?

Because it looked phenomenal.

Yeah, there was an amazing experience.

How did it come about?

We set out on a bit of an expedition with Man to Watch, New Zealand.

We've been surveying mantas around ocean and manta rays around the Hodaki Gulf.

And went out with Live Ocean with the purpose of trying to cite one of these things.

And we managed to find one off of Little Barrier.

And then after a briefing,

we had an opportunity to jump in the water and swim with it as well.

They're just, yeah, they're amazing, amazing creatures.

You know, I was able to approach that one and kind of almost get an eyesight of it

and just make a connection with it.

And then we swam for about 10 minutes or so, just me and this manta ray,

which is, yeah, totally a spiritual experience.

Because I feel like for me, that visual representation was the one that struck a cord most

because you can see, like seeing marine life in its natural environment,

cohabitating with humans and thinking that if nothing's done, that may be lost

is the part I think that had a lot of power for me personally.

It really resonated with me.

I suggest anyone go and watch it because it was a particularly kind of,

even just to watch it was moving, I can't imagine what it'd be like to be in the water

with it as well. It would just be phenomenal.

I'd love everybody to have an experience like that, you know,

so that they'd be more motivated to want to keep that because it is really special.

You know, that's one experience that I don't think I'll forget for the rest of my life.

Yeah, it's amazing and you do really get a sense that we're not the only inhabitants on this planet

and we forget that sometimes.

Yeah, nice. We're not done yet, but I just want to say, well done.

It's such an important, powerful message and to have swam 100k to get it out there,

like it's just perfect, perfect mapping out.

But look, Shay's been doing the mahi on this one this week

and he has been in touch with Mrs Riddler, Shay.

Yeah, one of the things we do is to try and build a picture of who you are as a person.

Now, on this episode, we couldn't go past the feats that you've just achieved,

but to try and contextualize it, I did pick up the phone and speak to Sarah,

to try and get a picture of what you were like outside of swimming and she initially said,

there is no Jono outside of swimming.

I don't know whether you can agree or disagree, but I'm going to try and paraphrase

or stick to script as closely as I can to some of the things that she said about you.

I'd be interested in your take on them.

So here we go.

Jono is very, very single-minded and full of tenacity and drive.

It was a superhuman effort to be able to focus so tightly on these big goals

while working full-time with a pregnant wife.

It would be easy to let things slide.

An example of his single-mindedness, at uni, I would go over to hang out

and he would finish his assignments before he would spend time with me.

On our wedding day, he still managed to do a naked three-kilometer swim in Devonport

to defend his title in the morning and then boost out to the ceremony in Pihar afterwards.

He's very good at breaking down tasks.

His favorite saying is, how do you eat an elephant?

One bite at a time, which is how he approaches his swims.

One stroke at a time from one checkpoint to the next.

And when I spoke about, I guess, the messaging or things that came out of the swim,

this is what she said.

The choices we make manifest our personal limitations.

You decide what your limits are.

For him, he doesn't want to be ordinary,

so it's a deliberate choice to push himself and to be better at everything that he does.

Now, do those kind of statements all reign reasonably true?

Yeah, particularly so the naked swim.

Thanks for bringing that up.

I actually asked her for clarification.

I said, is that like just a turn of phrase or is it genuinely a naked swim?

There's something called a freedom swim that takes place every year around North Ed.

And yes, I may have done that on the morning of our wedding day.

Was that just coincidence that that particular swim was done on that morning?

Yes, yeah, yeah, complete coincidence.

And full nude.

Full nudie.

Yeah, there's a freedom category.

And yeah, you get into the water, take your togs off, put them on a boat,

the boat meets you at the other side.

Yeah, so you don't walk out of the water.

Well, that was what I was thinking is you go in and out full nude.

But no, your modesty is maintained in the water.

Everything else, though, that was quite powerful,

especially what she said at the end there.

I can't remember exactly what you said, but I know it's struck a chord.

Just the thing about the limitations, like.

Yeah, that you set for yourself and not wanting to be ordinary.

I don't think it's so much about not wanting to be ordinary.

It's not wanting to be less than I can be.

You know, ordinary is like, I think that's like a relative term, right?

If you say somebody's ordinary or extraordinary, you're always comparing it to somebody else.

Whereas for me, it's just not wanting to be mediocre in terms of my own standards

and what I can achieve.

And so these swims is a way of expressing that.

And it's kind of the highest expression of myself, like being able to understand

what my physical and mental capabilities are.

There is a me outside of swimming that she probably hasn't seen it recently, to be fair.

It's a phenomenal mindset that you have and an incredible one as well to think that

this isn't your full-time profession.

Like you're dedicating a ton of time towards this, but you're also holding down a nine to five.

You're also going to be an expectant father as well.

You are an expectant father.

Is any of the routine going to change when that fatherhood?

You can take some tips from Stephen here, father of three soon to be four on how that's

going to impact on your potential time that you can spend swimming.

Yeah, no more 100k swims.

I don't know.

I think you're that solid that solitude.

You might appreciate that solitude in the water that provides.

Yeah, it'll be a big change for sure.

I don't exactly know what it's going to do to the scheduling, but we'll work through that.

Was there ever a moment when you went, no, this is what I am.

This is that pushing the boundaries and pushing your limits.

Was there ever a salient moment where you went, yeah, that's what I'm going to do?

Or has it been something that's just grown in you over time?

It has been pretty gradual really, but I remember, I do remember a specific moment after Cook

Strait, you know, I'd been building up to that swim for so long and it was kind of the first

of the epics that I had done and had some battles along the way and touched the, when I

eventually touched the rock off the South Island.

I did really get a sense, maybe not immediately, but afterwards in reflecting that, you know,

I could, if I put my mind to something, I really could achieve it.

And I think that was, that was a big turning point for me.

Yeah.

That Cook Strait swim seemed to have a little bit of adventure about it.

Yes.

Is it, you get chased by a seal at the start of it.

And was that the one where your wife threw up overboard and you swum through it?

If I got that, it was lined up.

That might have been correct, yeah.

Is she much of a sea goer?

She's joined me on a few of these swims.

She's, she doesn't spend a lot of time in the ocean herself, like not a lot of time,

you know, swimming around in the ocean or doing anything like that.

She's spent a little bit of time, like, on and around the ocean growing up.

I mean, we kind of all do around Auckland, don't we?

Um, but not, you know, not to the same extent that I do, I guess.

Where did you keep the ring on your person after you, because for those that don't know,

you proposed to Sarah on the sand of Lake Topal after completing that swim.

Did you have the ring on your person, the entire swim?

No, so, so the ruse was my dad was there for that swim.

He doesn't like boats.

Uh, so he, he stayed off the boat.

He gets a little bit seasick and he was there at the start.

And so I said, dad, dad, just quickly come up, come over here.

I said, I'm going to propose to Sarah tomorrow.

I'm going to put it in the pocket of my like swim jacket.

I want you to put the swim jacket over me at the end,

and then I'll be able to take it out from there.

And so that's what he did.

He put the jacket around me at the end and then, you know,

probably 15 minutes after getting out of the water.

Yeah, I was going to say, was that top, was that top of mind when you get out?

Like, oh, shit, that's right.

I've got to propose when I get, when I get something I had to do.

Gave me a bit more courage, I guess, you know, having, having,

having done that, that swim beforehand, proposing is a bit daunting.

In comparison, shit.

Has anyone ever said that you've got a bit of Ryan Reynolds about you, by the way?

No, no, thank you though.

Yeah, you're welcome.

I'm like, I'm staring down the barrel.

I'm like, yeah, there's a decent Ryan Reynolds impression in here somewhere.

I'm not sure I see it.

You need to get a better angle.

I'm on a swim journey at the moment.

So I used to, I used to run a lot and I've been injured a couple of years ago.

Can't run any more arthritis in the hips.

So I started swimming.

I hated it to start with, but it was something that I knew for the long term.

If I needed a cardio workout, it was either cycling or swimming.

I chose swimming.

And I've learned to love it.

So again, the pool three or four times a week.

And I just, yeah, I don't do as long as you, but I've found that I've really

sort of enjoyed the, the space where I'm unplugged from everything.

And I'm just alone with my thoughts, just doing length after length.

Like there's something really cool about that.

But was it similar to you?

Like you, you played football at youth and you did a lot of running.

And then I understand you got an injury.

Is that how you found your way into the pool?

I think I found my way into the pool through training for ocean swimming.

Like it wasn't so much that I was doing it, like what you're describing,

which is where you're pulled into the pool swimming for its kind of

meditative benefits as much as anything else.

Well, at least that's what it sounds like, based on what you're saying.

But the pool swimming for me has always been complimentary to ocean swimming training.

So it's something that I've needed to do.

I do, I do enjoy it.

Like I do genuinely enjoy it, like, you know, doing pace swimming

and pushing my body in that sense.

But it wasn't like I got into pool swimming and then,

you know, really enjoyed that.

And then then got into ocean swimming on off the back of that.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Or was it swimming in general as part of rehab for you in terms of injuries?

Yeah, it was, yeah.

Was it like a, was that a low impact solution to some of the injuries that you'd suffered?

Correct, yeah.

Through your kind of various sporting endeavors?

From a snowboarding injury in particular was what got me doing a bit more pool swimming.

And then off the back of that training for an ocean swim.

So like I do hell of a lot of pool swimming.

And I do actually have a bit of an appreciation for it now as well.

Like the, what you're talking about in terms of just getting into that zone and,

you know, you're just in your own space for however long you want to be anyway.

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah.

It's quite a nice space to be in for some people.

Drives them bloody crazy because they're up in their own head for too long.

But if you've got a particular leaning, I think it's, it's a really enjoyable space to be in.

Yeah, I've really connected with it in a way that I didn't think,

I didn't think that side of it would appeal.

I just thought I'd get a good workout out of it.

But yeah, I think there's so much going on in life and so much screen time

that that is a time where there's no, there's no way I screened.

Isn't it like particularly so with the screen time because you don't have a choice?

Like there's no picking up of the phone or anything like that.

So can you imagine for 33 hours, I didn't look at a phone bloody once and like,

how fantastic is that?

What did your phone look like afterwards?

How many notifications and messages and well wishes and all the best?

Crazy.

Did it take you a while to clear all that off?

Yes, it did.

I could imagine.

Yeah.

I could imagine.

But like good problem to have, right?

I guess, I guess so.

Are you still rolling around on the old Brazilian jiu-jitsu mats as well?

No, I've still got a couple of geese in my, in my wardrobe,

just in case I do decide to pick it back up again.

But no, I dropped that probably three years ago or so.

Really enjoyed that.

Are there any lessons from those other pastimes in sports

that you can apply to your swimming journey or vice versa?

Oh, 100%.

Like I think, you know, thinking about something like jiu-jitsu or judo,

which I did a little bit of the, just the resilience,

the physical and mental resilience to when it gets tough, keep, you know,

moving forward because you're in some situations with jiu-jitsu,

maybe somebody's on top of you applying the full pressure of their body weight.

And it's an uncomfortable position to be in.

And when you first do that, like, oh, this isn't nice.

I want to get out.

But you learn to just be able to sit with that.

And I think that that's something that I've definitely carried over to swimming as well

is that kind of sense of, you know, it's,

maybe it's uncomfortable, but you can,

I can sit with that for a little while.

Speaking of sitting with discomfort, ice baths,

I've heard you sitting in ice baths for one hour plus,

like proper, proper ice baths for one hour plus.

That is a level of discomfort which-

Proper ice baths.

Yeah, like some ice baths aren't proper ice baths.

Well, like some people go, yeah, I'm in an ice bath,

but that ain't like, that's not an ice bath.

You're fully submerged for one hour plus, right?

Yeah, that's kind of my PB, one hour at three degrees.

More recently, it was getting up to about half an hour at one degree

and, you know, a little modified chest freezer that I've got.

Yeah, great tips, by the way.

Check out Jono's website on how to make your own home ice bath out of a chest freezer.

Very, very good instructions.

Very detailed.

It's been deep in the trenches.

Yeah, and you write as well.

You write so eloquently.

Your journal of your experiences, your blogs,

is really, really detailed and really, really good.

Thank you.

You're welcome.

Get on that ice freezer.

Is the ice bath thing, was that in preparation for the long swim?

Like, is it to get used to being in cold water for so long?

Like, I first bought it for 5.0 straight and they lead up to that.

And I had seen, I don't even know where I saw the whole chest freezer ice bath thing.

I think it was on YouTube or something like that.

And I was inspired to give it a crack.

There wasn't really a lot of, at least that I knew of,

there were a lot of people that were doing that at the time.

And so I bought it and modified it and went through a bit of a learning journey to do that.

Hence why I wrote that blog so people don't have to make the same mistakes that I did.

And I was sitting in that at something like, I don't know, 7 degrees for long periods of time,

just to try and build up my cold water adaptation.

Because that was something that I was a little bit worried about.

The water up in Auckland was like 21 degrees and I was going into, you know, 14, 15 degree water

in 5.0 straight.

And so the, how my body would respond to the cold water was something that I was

a little bit conscious, yeah, definitely conscious of and that I needed to do some work around.

Yeah, that seems like a long time.

It was a pretty long time.

I wouldn't recommend it to most people.

And the only reason I do it for that period of time is purely for the cold adaptation.

Yeah, you know, it's not for, it's not for health.

It's like, you get out after like, say, recent experiences, 30 minutes at one degree and like,

you have a wicked after-drop.

And the after-drop is when the cold blood from your extremities starts pouring back

through your core and then circulating out.

And so you have this drop in temperature after you get out of the ice bath and you're just

like shaking like a madman.

And yes, it's not that pleasant, but I think it's helpful.

Are you a Wim Hof guy?

I do a little bit of maybe not specifically Wim Hof breathing, but do some breathing exercises.

Do you get intrigued when that sort of blew up?

Was that you all in on kind of wanting to learn more and wanting to research more?

Yeah, I've watched quite a bit of Wim Hof stuff.

Like the guy just fascinates me.

He's an interesting fella and super passionate.

That's an understatement.

Have ice baths been part of your recovery since the swim?

Like, have you been doing them in the last few days?

Not yet.

No, I haven't gone back in the ice since, actually.

Not a bad idea, too.

And get in there tonight after the pod.

Such a thing as ice swimming, right?

Yes, it is, yeah.

Which is a five degree water temperature?

Less than five degrees.

And is that like pool lengths?

Is that classified as ice?

Is there an ice swimming championships?

Again, novice intelligence.

My guy has been doing the mahi on the swimming.

Yeah, I mean, I think we're getting you in the pool.

Are we turning you into a swim show?

I don't actually know how to swim,

so it's going to be a challenge in itself.

I reckon we're lining up a few lessons.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

A aquatic center in Helton, Sheddock.

Yeah, maybe.

But there is a, like, are you a president of the Association?

The Ice Swimming Association?

Of the International Ice Swimming Association,

Aotearoa, New Zealand.

Which we set up over the last couple of years.

So, pretty new thing.

The International Ice Swimming Association came out of South Africa.

And it's bigger than you might expect.

Yeah, I'm genuinely interested by it.

Yeah.

Like, are there world champs that you can qualify for?

There's a world champs.

Yeah, yeah, there was just,

earlier this year, there was the first New Zealand team

that went up to the world champs up in France.

You know, it's definitely still a very young sport,

but the aspiration is to get it into the Winter Olympics.

Makes sense.

There is another, there's no other swimming.

Yeah.

Another avenue for our top swimmers.

And is there a crossover between, like,

hot water swimmers and ice swimmers?

I don't know.

Fucking normal swimmers and ice swimmers.

Like, is it the same group of athletes that crossover both?

Or can you specialise in ice swimming?

Yeah, you can definitely specialise in ice swimming.

The top ice swimmers around the world are pool swimmers.

But they're, you know, guys and gals

that are coming out of these colder countries.

So they're kind of, you know,

they're getting that cold exposure.

I think for most of our elite pool swimmers,

they really struggle getting into, you know, three-degree water.

Whereas they're training most of the time to 28 degrees.

The challenge isn't how fast you swim.

It's how do you navigate those colder temperatures?

How can your body deal with that for that period of time?

And, you know, if you chucked, like, a really good pool swimmer

into that kind of environment,

I think they would struggle

because they've got pretty limited body fats

and those kind of things, which helps.

Yeah, maybe I am a go for ice swimming.

Maybe a hot pool swimmer.

Definitely not.

I'll be an ice guy.

Look, not much more for me.

I imagine the answer to this is just chilling out for a bit.

But are there any things on the horizon

that you're working towards?

No, nothing actively at the minute.

And yeah, you're not the first person to ask what's next.

What's next, yeah.

No, there's like a little seed of an idea that's in my head

and we'll see what happens with that.

But like we talked about earlier,

I'm going to be a dad in a few months

and I'm sure that's going to consume a bit of my time.

It will be.

It's a big adventure.

You know how there's great walks in New Zealand?

Are there like great swims around the world

that you can tick off as well?

Like is that a well-known thing?

And what are examples of ones that are on that list?

There's the Ocean Seven, which is popularized

for probably the best part of a decade now.

And that's made up of seven kind of gnarly swims

or big swims around the world.

You've got the likes of Cook Straight, which is on that.

So that sees a lot of, yeah, tick.

That sees a lot of international travelers

coming to New Zealand to do that swim.

English Channel, which most people know about

between France and England.

The North Channel between Ireland and Scotland.

Molokai Channel, which is in Hawaii.

Gibraltar Straight and Sugaru Straight up in Japan.

And then the last one is Catalina Channel,

which is Catalina Island back to the mainland

off the coast of California.

So you're one of 10 that's done the New Zealand Triple Crown.

How many people have done the Great Seven?

I think maybe, I don't know, 50.

Yeah.

There's, guys, there's some amazing

marathon swimmers around the world.

Yeah, where do you rank in terms of like,

is it, are you able to rank?

Is there a ranking where you are?

It is really hard to, you know, say like,

this person is better than this person.

And because every day is different

and every swim is a little bit different.

But, and how do you measure things?

Is it based on distance?

Is it based on time?

There's kind of like a, there's a few people out there

that are really pushing the boundaries and that inspire me.

And, you know, they're kind of more well known

and in the swimming community as well.

Yeah, who has the world record longest ocean swim?

Longest ocean swim is, I think it's Neil Adjus,

who's a guy out of Malta, and that's 125.7 Ks.

He's currently aiming to do 100 miles.

We had Ruth Croft on from a running perspective,

who's done some incredible things.

That, where do you do a swim like that?

Like, how do you, where the, yeah, fuck.

I've met a Mediterranean, this guy's doing it.

So, which I think that's a good place to do it

because it looks like the waters are generally

a little bit calmer and quite warm as well.

You know, so you can kind of take hypothermia out of the mix.

160 K, like it's unreal.

And he's expecting it to take 70 hours.

Like I've just done half of that.

So, you know, I look at guys like that and I'm like,

okay, like if this guy can do this, I reckon I can do a bit more.

Amazing, amazing attitude to have.

If you've enjoyed this check on listen to Chloe McCardale,

she was our ultra marathon swim we had on,

I think she did it 100, she did over 100 kilometers.

I should know this.

We should know this.

But it was in that same area.

She did it.

Yeah, that's right.

130 maybe?

Yeah, that's right.

No, that wasn't the Bahamas was it?

She got pipped by Neil.

Her record recently got broken.

And I think it was up in the Bahamas about 120 K or so.

Yeah, fascinating.

And there's something about warm water versus cold water swimming.

And there's all these little kind of really intricacies

into validating the attempts, right?

Yeah, like hypothermia versus hyperthermia.

So, you know, becoming too hot versus becoming cold is just swimming.

So, and for my recent swim, it was more hypothermia

because the water was cool.

But some of these other swims, these guys are taking down drinks

with like ice cubes in them because,

because, you know, they're getting too hot in a way.

And then, yeah, the verification and massive amount of like

documentation that you need to put forward to the governing body

to make sure that everything was done according to the book.

And, yeah, that can take months to actually get it verified.

Have you done any swims overseas?

Then you've really long swimming.

Obviously, you've swam overseas.

No, not yet.

No, I'm booked to do North Channel next year though,

the one between Ireland and Scotland.

All right.

So you do have a 2024 long swimming.

Long swimming in motion.

Cance out of the bag.

Bit of a weird one, but your job in logistics with,

we can shout out DHL, right?

Sure.

Does that help you in terms of like planning for these things?

I mentioned right at the top, like you must have a meticulous plan

in terms of how everything's going to fit

and how everything's going to go.

Because it's not a case of just,

I'm going to jump in the water at point A and we get out at point B.

You 16 are going to come along for the ride in happy days.

Like how much detail goes into it?

Oh, massive.

Yeah, because you've got the training amount,

but you've also got the logistics and everything to map out.

And is that all you that does that?

Is there a program coordinator or someone in the top,

over the top who oversees everything?

Or are you captain coach?

I was doing a good amount of it.

And then Live Ocean really came to the party

and put a little bit more professionalism around it.

Like there was a health and safety plan

that was like 20 pages long, you know,

that sat behind this and the whole event plan.

And luckily, yeah, there was somebody

that was actually able to add some structure

in the last few weeks in terms of that event management.

But yeah, I think in terms of the logistical piece,

definitely there's some crossovers

between what I do professionally and what I do as a hobby.

And probably more so from a resilience perspective,

like crossovers there in terms of just dealing

with some of the stuff that I have to do in the workplace

and then transferring that over into swimming

and vice versa as well.

What's the biggest lesson that swimming has taught you?

Wow.

I think that the biggest lesson that the doing

these big swims has taught me really is that

you're totally the master of your own destiny

and that you go as far as you want to go.

So you're only really limited by your imagination

and by your belief and by your hard work and dedication.

I think that would be the biggest lesson.

It's been a really insightful and inspirational episode.

I just want to say I'm going to tee up Shay.

He's our outro guy.

But I love that you have created this challenge

for yourself out of nowhere.

No one, there's no one else's radar,

but you've just made up this thing I want to swim 100 kilometers.

And then you've trained for it.

Everyone, well, most people would think it's impossible.

It seems impossible and you've done it

and you've sort of pushed through all of these barriers

and you've come up with the mental fortitude to push through.

And in the process captured the nation's attention

and pushed up this very worthy course.

Like it's just such a great story.

And it's been so captivating.

So I think you've come in on and sharing with us.

But I don't think I can.

I'm not sure I can top that outro.

I'm going to try my best.

But Steven's right.

And hearing the measured nature of your approach to things,

I think is, I've been really impressed by it in the research for it.

I mentioned to your wife how articulate you are

and how composed and well-spoken you are.

And I think it's lessons learned from hours and hours of dedication and swimming.

You're not rushed in your thoughts.

You've got a plan and you execute that plan

in terms of the long swims that you do.

And to Steven's point, single-handedly, essentially,

yes, you've had support.

But to bring this cause into the consciousness of the nation

is an incredible achievement

and testament to what people can do as individuals

if they don't put those limitations on themselves.

And the power that a voice can have

when it brings other people along for the journey,

I think is a really, really important lesson from this.

I'd love to see hearing the determination behind

the challenge to push yourself further.

I can't wait to see what challenges are in store for you.

I know you've got a massive challenge

in terms of adapting to fatherhood coming up.

So I wish you all the best for that journey.

But I look forward to seeing what amazing experiences

you can bring forward in the future.

Brilliant.

Thank you, guys.

It's been great to talk.

And hopefully this does provide some value for people as well.

Something that they can take away and in some way

impacts them, inspires them in whatever small way.

I'm sure they will.

Cheers, Johnny.

Cheers.

Hey, guys, if you've made it this far,

hopefully that means you've enjoyed this episode.

And if you feel strongly enough about it to share on social media,

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That stuff is really important for helping us grow.

Catch you next week.

Export Ultra and the ACC are giving you and a mate the chance

to go on tour with the ACC and visit the best bear gardens

outside of New Zealand.

It just so happens, the Export Ultra Bear Garden Tour

will be on at the same time as a certain tournament in France

in October.

Flights accommodation for a week in Paris.

Hosted by G Lane, Matt Heath, and Maniah Stewart.

Just text Paris to 3236, follow the link to register,

and you are in the draw.

Easy as that.

Give the new Export Ultra a try.

99% Cub free refreshment.

Machine-generated transcript that may contain inaccuracies.