My First Million: Jack Smith: Selling A Company For $800M At 29, Million Dollar Businesses that Can Be Started Just From Reading a Manual, and More

You wake up at something like 3 AM or 5 AM and the first two to three days.

The only instruction they give you is, hey, feel how the breath feels on your lips

when you're breathing in and out.

OK, see you in three days and you sit that's really extreme.

What? This is my management style, too.

All right, we're live here. We have a guest.

Jack Smith, one of my best friends in my wedding.

And amazing person.

I don't even know how to describe you, Jack.

What you I guess like the top line is you started a company

that you sold for like eight hundred million dollars when you were twenty nine.

That's like the that's like the headline impressive stuff.

But we have you here because you have done

you're just like one of the more interesting people I know.

OK, well, thanks for having me.

I also thought kind of an interesting contrast coming after Rob

because like he was describing himself as like the pinnacle of human optimization.

Right. Like he plans how long it takes him to go to the toilet each day.

And I was thinking I'm maybe an interesting contrast.

So I'm like human procrastination, like the exact opposite of that.

It's like, yeah, but you do optimize stuff.

Like, Sean, I don't know if you know this,

but it's like Jack, once I went to his birthday party

and his wife made him a cake and it was in the shape of an Amazon box

because he had this like it was like a walk-in closet,

but it was basically a room in his home and it was full of Amazon boxes.

And you're like, Jack, what is that?

And he has this list, this Excel spreadsheet that he keeps

and anything that he buys ranging from a book bag to baby apparel

or baby accessories, or one time he was obsessed with chocolate.

He would literally buy 50 versions and test all of them

and then rank them on this like attribute system and then have a.

And so he has these huge lists of everything that he's tested.

And he's done this so much that we haven't you been banned from Amazon

like multiple times. Yeah.

And then also, but no bows had this policy for

I don't know if they still have.

I think for many years had a policy where you could return any item,

even if it was used up to three hundred and sixty five days after.

And so I had a spreadsheet tracking when I bought everything.

Basically, I got a new wardrobe every year

because I just sent all my clothes back on the three hundred and forty days

and then got it all as like credit and bought an entire new wardrobe every year.

So yeah, I got banned from Amazon a few times and the no bows should have.

You and Rob have more in common than you think he's planted his poops

and you're planning your returns in a giant spreadsheet.

You what you have this, like Sam said,

this kind of like personal wire cutter you create for yourself.

Sure. Have you always done that?

Or was that like I got too much time on my hands.

I'm going to come up with a new hobby, like, you know,

figuring out the best of everything.

Were you doing that kind of when you were 21 also?

Well, I didn't have any money when I was 21.

I still bought stuff from Amazon,

but I think it probably would connect like Sean,

you've talked on the pod about, you know, having an inquisitive mindset.

And I think for me, I like to go deep on something.

So as Sam said about chocolate, when I was just interested in chocolate,

I wanted to go deep. So I'm like, I want to I bought my own beans.

I roasted them in my house.

I wanted to learn what's the entire process,

because I think it's kind of interesting.

These crafts that go back centuries

and some people dedicate their whole life, right?

Like 50 years, they're an expert chocolatier.

And then for me, it's just kind of interesting,

just have a glimpse into that and keeping that mindset about craft,

but also maybe challenging the way things are done sometimes.

Because if you've done chocolate for 50 years,

you'll maybe like that's the way it's always been done.

But if you come from a fresh angle, you may be like, wait,

what if you did it this way or something?

But I think it's just I'm interested in general to go deep into topics.

I call you when I describe you to other friends, I said,

I think Jack is the most interesting man in the world.

And I think there's this great quote.

It's like, to be interesting, you need to be interested.

And to me, that's the perfect description for you.

You're the most interesting man in the world

because you're interested in the most things, at the most depth,

you know, in the highest variety.

And so I've talked to you about, you know, five different things

and you've gone down a rabbit hole in each one of them.

So it turns out and because of that,

you always have like a really interesting point of view.

What's been the best find?

Like you're talking about this chocolate rabbit hole, you went down

and you're like, you know, you you you may come out with a different conclusion

than the experts or the people who've done this for a long time.

What's an example where you kind of just got you came to a different conclusion yourself?

Well, it was actually I was listening back to our last episode

or maybe one of the previous episodes.

And it was what we talked about there, where it was like,

I just looked me and my co-founder at least just researched

how ad networks work for a week.

And then we were like, all right, we think this is how it works.

And Tomas, who runs Angel Pad was like, dude,

you're thinking you come into totally different conclusions in a week.

I were working at Google for a decade and there's people with decades of experience in this.

But we just fought from the principle of just very basics.

And so the first bit similar with app loving is we were like,

why are these ad networks charging based on how many times someone watches a video?

We built a video ad network.

We were like, apps, they actually just care about the end action.

So they actually only care how many people install their app

or how much money these users are going to spend in their app.

They don't actually care how many people watch the video.

So why is it that the industry charges that way?

And so we kind of made a bet and said, we will charge.

It doesn't matter how many people watch your video.

We'll just only charge you based on how many people install it.

It was a bet.

Luckily, it worked out.

Sometimes you have to kind of make a gamble, right?

Like, especially with an ad network, we had no idea if the business would work

because the unit economics kind of out of our hands, right?

We don't know if these ad network, if it's going to work, which, by the way,

we should like give a background.

So basically your company was called Vongole.

You were you 22?

21, 20.

So basically, like the story that you always tell is you had like,

you got into an accelerator, an incubator.

I think you had one idea, but it wasn't working out.

And then you just like mocked up like a PowerPoint.

You went and it was like on a mobile ad network.

So basically you would see an ad in between levels of games.

You brought it to developers and they're like, oh, yeah, this is way better.

If you could actually build this, we're in.

And you did that a bunch of times where you've got maybe one or I think a million

dollars of the commitments of like, yeah, I guess if you build this,

we would spend like this much money.

And then you took that and you actually hired a developer, Bryant,

who's now the co-founder of Webflow, and you built that business.

And then it like spiraled into this thing where I think you'd only raised 10 or

15 million, maybe 17 million.

And within seven years, I think wherever it was when you sold,

you guys were doing a million a day in revenue.

Is that like the company?

It could be in that region.

Yeah, maybe, yeah, hundreds of millions in revenue.

It was absolutely crazy.

And then you sold it for, I forget, what, 800?

Yeah, yeah, kind of in that region.

And I mean, what's interesting as well is obviously Sean talks about

having worked with Furquhan at App Loving.

App Loving launched about six to 12 months after us.

So I think is another example.

You don't have to be the first to market.

Like everyone's jumping on the AI trend, right?

To be first to market.

But actually, you don't have to be the first to market to be the biggest.

App Loving was one of the slower movers.

And to give context, they at their peak have been multiple times bigger than

Fungal.

They went public and probably at their peak in the region of 10 billion market cap.

Now they're a bit low up smoke.

No, no, they're more 20.

They're 9 billion now.

They were 20 billion at its peak of something like 20, 25 billion at its peak.

What do you think they did?

Why did they have kind of a, let's call it 10 to 20 X bigger outcome

if they started a year later?

What, when you look back, what did you learn from that?

And it was also interesting because one of our investors, besides Furquhan

being a beast, one of our investors came to us and said, like, oh, yeah, we're

backing, we're looking, we're investing in this company.

They do like video advertisements inside of mobile apps, etc.

called App Loving and you're like, you're describing our company.

What are you talking about?

You're investing in that.

That's what we do.

And actually, so they're called, they're called web, wean, web investment network.

They invested in, I think they're the only investor invested in Fungal and App Loving.

They're great guys, but at the time we were like, fuck.

Um, so they have massive wins there.

Uh, one bit we observed is actually App Loving, Vungal.

We thought that like, at the time before Vungal mobile apps were monetized

through like banner ads, like kind of on the internet, you know, when the internet

first launched, she had these crappy banner ads and we were like, well,

they obviously suck.

So we're going to do video ads, which is 10 X better, but a difference

that App Loving did is they didn't only do video ads, they did everything.

They did, they were like, we don't care what you want to spend money on.

We'll just take your money.

So they're like one platform, you can do banner ads, video ads, everything.

And so I think that, um, enabled them to capture a bit more market share and

perhaps, um, the, uh, founding team being more technical.

Like, I'd say that I'm a crappy engineer, uh, like I could not build

Vungal from scratch and Sean listening to your story on, uh, one of the more

recent episodes you described, Furquhan, making that dashboard for Adam, that

he could just look at the apps and poach them.

We did similar bits, um, but there's perhaps more technical.

One of our hacks we did is we actually had a team of people in about 10 people

in Pakistan and Pakistan is so cheap.

So we had an entire office and they had one job to, and that's why it was

really easy to recruit there.

We'd said, just play mobile games all day.

We just got them all on iPhone, which play, play games all day.

And whenever you see an ad, write down what the ad was advertising and what

ad network was using it.

And so they basically built us our lead gen database by playing all the games.

So maybe we did it manually.

They did it by looking at this SDK source code.

Yeah.

That's amazing.

You're like, last night, someone was asking me, I was at this dinner.

They're like, have you ever met anyone who, um, created a business and sold it

and was wealthy enough and they just retired?

And I was like, not really.

Basically everyone I know who's started a company and had some type of success.

Usually after some amount of time, six months or three years, they usually get

into something, sometimes it's more intense, sometimes less intense, but

they usually do something.

You're actually the only person I think I know who was incredibly successful at

a very young age, so 30 years old or whatever you sold it.

And you actually have not ever started another business before.

You do a lot of odd stuff.

Like, for example, I'll be like, Jack, what are you doing now?

You got any projects?

You're like, yeah, I, I have like a ton of pen pals in prison.

And I like set up this thing where it's this website where people, inmates can

order any book they want to.

And I like ask them to create like a book report on it.

And I'm like, that's so interesting.

Do you think, A, you'll ever get back into business?

And is the reason, do you just spend all your days just like seeking out all

these interesting topics?

Is that what you're doing now?

So I would not say that I'm retired at the moment because when I think of being

retired, I think about having no stress and just like sitting around reading

books all day or something like that.

You know, actually, I am working on a bunch of stuff, but they're not just

it's not taking approach of trying to build another billion dollar company.

When I think back, a trait I noticed in many entrepreneurs and I observed in

myself is that I think I was successful early on because I had a chip on my

shoulder.

I had something to prove.

And doing my first startup in London, it was really hard to do a startup.

And I also felt like people kind of didn't respect me.

I had they like people just kind of thought I was a joke or whatever.

And I kind of felt inside.

I thought I was like, I think that I can build something successful.

I didn't want, I didn't aspire to be super rich or anything.

I just wanted to build a big company, but I had that chip on my

shoulder, something to prove.

Now, when Vungal Soul, when I kind of reflected, I was like, I don't think

that I have that chip on my shoulder anymore.

And I think if you're going to try and build a billion dollar company, you

or really venture back company or something, you have to make a lot of

sacrifices, right?

And have a drive about why you're doing it.

And when I sat, I'm like, I don't need more money now.

And I don't have this thing to prove anymore.

So when I sat with it, I felt what is going to motivate me more now is where

can I have an impact and kind of impact the world, not necessarily trying to

impact a million people in the world.

But even if I just deeply impact a few people in the world, I think that

will be a driver to a reason why to work on this, because making more

money is not enough of a driver for me.

And all of us three, we're in this chat group, right?

About founders that have sold their first company.

And it seems that the majority of people have this crisis.

I've sold my company, but I don't know what to do with myself.

And I'm good at building companies.

I don't really need more money, but shall I just do it?

Because that's what I'm good at.

And I can't think of anything else to do.

And also, I don't want to just sit around.

So it seems a challenge many others are facing.

For me, the conclusion I came to was, where can I add impact?

And that looks like setting up some charities and a project that I'm

working on at the moment.

You guys have talked briefly about it before, is move to Portugal to set up

a kind of digital detox type place for people to switch off from

technology and be in nature.

So these are the kind of things that I'm doing.

I mean, that one, it will hopefully make money, but money is not the core metric.

If it's been a success or not, even if it doesn't, even if it breaks the

normal, loses a bit of money, if just it can heal people, people say like,

yo, that changed my life was super healing to me.

And people talk about it.

That is success for me with that project.

Dude, you're the first person I've ever met who does a lot of things that are

now more popular.

So I remember one time Sean, Jack and I were hanging out and we were playing

frisbee golf.

It was just us.

It was like 10 a.m. in the morning.

We were playing frisbee golf in San Francisco.

And I was like, Jack, you're being a little quiet.

What's wrong?

And this was like after an hour of playing.

He's like, oh, I, um, I was doing ayahuasca from for the last three days.

And I was like, what?

What's ayahuasca?

He's like, well, you go to this house and you like drink this thing and then

you throw up and you're supposed to like, you know, find yourself or whatever.

And you have like a shaman guiding you.

And I was like, when did that end?

And he was like, oh, I came straight from there.

I was there like, I was there like an hour and a half ago.

And so you would do that stuff like way before this type of psychedelic stuff is popular.

Another thing that you would do, Jack would come and speak at HustleCon and

he's like, Hey, I got to go like literally the next day.

I was like, where are you going?

He goes, oh, I'm going to Bali for three weeks for a silent retreat.

And he would, I would see him leave.

He would bring like basically no clothes and a massive bag, like a whole carry on

or a whole check bag of books from the library.

And I was like, what are you doing?

He's like, I was just overwhelmed with all the people.

I got to go to Bali now for it.

And he would go to the silent retreat for literally three weeks and not say a word.

And now I'm talking to like my quote, normal, more normal friends,

my friends who are doctors and lawyers, whatever.

And now they're doing it.

You do so many things that are so odd.

And now, now everyone's talking about psychedelics.

Like these silent retreats are significantly more popular.

You've been doing that since 2012.

I remember you's telling me about all this stuff,

because this is the craziest thing I've ever heard of.

And you've been doing all that now and it's way more popular.

Vipassana is a is a type of silent meditation.

So if someone says they've done a silent retreat,

often they're talking about this thing called vipassana.

And yes, I think it has got more mainstream nowadays,

but it has actually been pretty popular concept for a long time.

But I've never done it.

And that is actually really extreme approach.

Like many people I speak to who have done them say it's kind of like

if you can't swim and you jump off an Olympic diving board,

it's really extreme approach to switching off and feeling burned out.

Some people, I think they're doing it because, well, I know people

have told me they did it because it sounded like a challenge.

But it's not necessarily a good thing.

So to give an example, you go for 10 days, right?

My friend did it.

His pillow was made. It's run by monks, so nonprofit.

They have about 300 locations around the world run by monks.

And it doesn't cost any money.

You maybe pay small fee.

His pillow was made out of concrete.

You're not allowed to make eye contact with any other person there.

Your meals are like rice.

You wake up at something like three a.m. or five a.m.

And the first two to three days, the only instruction they give you is, hey,

feel how the breath feels on your lips when you're breathing in and out.

OK, see you in three days and you sit that's really extreme.

What? This is my management style, too.

But this is really popular.

But what I did and I was inspired by Bill Gates,

he had this thing called Think Week where he just goes to a cabin

in the middle of nowhere and he just reads for a week.

And I was like, oh, that's awesome.

And I found this place in Indonesia

and it's just totally different to Vipassana because they don't have any rules.

Like you can make the only rule is don't talk to each other.

But you can make eye contact.

You can do whatever you want.

You don't have to do any meditation at all.

But I mean, so for me, I just took loads of books and I came out of that each time,

getting all the benefits these people doing Vipassana retreats to talk about.

Like I feel super re-energized.

My mood feels off the charts, super happy, but I'm having an amazing time.

I'm reading all these books I've wanted to read all year

and the food is amazing.

It's grown on their own jungle slash farm.

So I'm like this amazing experience and I feel awesome and all these benefits.

But the other guys are like, oh, I spoke to one guy this morning.

He's like, totally glad I did it.

Would never want to go through that again.

It was one of the hardest experiences of my life.

And I'm like, well, you can actually get a bunch of the same benefits,

but you don't have to talk to yourself.

But I've never found a place like this place in Indonesia.

And so for many years, I kind of felt that I just have to do this,

which is expand their concept to other continents around the world.

So I'm starting Portugal.

If that goes well, hopefully then expand to America, et cetera.

That's awesome.

You put a couple of things on the sheet that I want to do.

You said business opportunities.

So it sounds like you've been able to resist the temptation

to start another business, even though you're good at business

and you see lots of opportunities.

So share with us a couple of these random ideas that you have on this list.

Yeah, because I know you guys, I think the audience likes different business ideas

and things that are also actionable with my first million whites.

So I was kind of thinking to myself and one business,

I don't know if you guys have come across this,

but it was kind of interesting to me.

It's a company, not VC backed or anything, but it's called Nomad Capitalist.

And it's this guy and he's kind of made a name for himself as

the leader for rich people that just want to go around the world.

He organizes a conference for like family offices and he has a book

and he has this brand called Nomad Capitalist.

And if you look on Reddit, loads of people talk about it.

I actually did a pre-screen call with them.

And I also read the reviews about it, et cetera.

They're basically just a reseller for tax lawyers

because tax lawyers just suck at marketing, you know, and he's got a podcast,

he's got a book, he's just a really great at marketing.

And he's got this like he's like, oh, the best track strategy is to like have

free passports, I help you get multiple passports and set up a bank

account in another country, et cetera, did a call with them.

And they basically wanted $25,000 retainer.

And then what they'll do is they'll just make you a report and they're like,

all right, the $25,000, you can later put it towards whatever things

we propose for you.

But I was like, OK, but then as I did more research, I kind of just

myself found out like, wait, I can just cut out you and just find an awesome

tax attorney myself and pay $3,000.

I don't need to give you $25,000, but he, yeah, he's he's doing really well.

And he also has this level, like if you pay him $75,000, you can like go

and hang out with him on an island in person.

And he'll he'll be your concierge.

So some of these people, I think it's just like rich people having too much

money and they don't want to do the research or reference checks to find

good tax people. They're like, oh, well, this dude, his website looks really great.

He must be fault leader.

He's got this book.

He's on all the podcasts.

I'll just hire him because also I found tax attorneys.

They don't give you a simple answer to the fricking question.

You know, I'm just like, I want to do this, whatever.

And then they're like, oh, it's really complicated.

And they they use all this jargon.

They just suck at speaking plain English.

He does.

So he's built a really good business.

And I was thinking, I think a business opportunity is building a reseller

layer on top of these industries that just suck at marketing

or communicating what they do, you know?

So he's doing it for tax international tax for really rich people.

And I was thinking there's probably other industries where just make an amazing

brand website, write a book, go on all the podcasts and make a brand

about yourself hit really great name, right?

Like Nomad capitalist to do that for other industries.

I thought was one idea.

So what do you get?

What do you get for the twenty five grand?

He's like, I'll make you a report.

They'll make you a report, an eight page report telling you we think

that you should set up a trust in Bermuda.

And that we's going to cost you 30 K.

The twenty five K that you paid us, you can put that towards the trust in Bermuda.

But basically he's just taking a cut.

He's just taking a lease.

He's just taking a referral fee from the lawyer.

You know, it only costs five K to do the trust.

So basically and then if he gives you the report and you don't like it,

he keeps the twenty five K.

So this is this is the business model that the think and grow rich guy does.

And Dave Ramsey, I've come to realize.

So what they did is I know somebody who reached out to

he got into think and grow rich, Robert Kiyosaki's like, you know, book plus.

Well, you're getting confused.

Poor dad, rich dad is the Robert Kawasaki guy or whatever his name.

Robert, something they can go.

Rich is Napoleon Hill. Yeah, yeah.

Sorry, that's what I meant, rich dad, poor dad.

Oh, that's the other one.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yeah, so he reaches out to the rich dad, poor dad guy who I think is that

Kiyosaki guy and he's basically that like he's got a philosophy.

He's like, look, this is the way to get rich.

And it makes sense.

And you're like, cool, I want to do it.

He's like, awesome.

Reach out to one of our, you know, reach out to our headquarters

and we'll do a call and we'll get to know you and we'll tell you what we think you should do.

And it's just a layer reselling tax strategy.

And so what he did was he paid 20 K to these guys to get a connection

to a tax strategy lawyer, a tax strategist and lawyer who then did,

you know, saves him a bunch of money.

He actually saved him like 80 K or something like that.

So he's like, oh, yeah, that's a great deal.

I put in 20 got 80.

Then he introduced me to the tax guy and the tax guy is like, cool.

Yeah, for all this, it'll be six K.

And I was like, oh, but like, I told my brother, I was like, you know, you, you paid 20.

I paid six.

What do you mean?

And he was like, well, yeah, like that.

I was like, where did the other, you know, where were the other money goes?

Oh, that goes to like their central agency.

Like that filters the deal.

So they don't just take a cut.

It's not like we get a 10% referral fee.

They mark up the whole service by three X and keep 66% of the three X markup.

In order to do this.

And then Dave Ramsey does the same thing.

So I was like, you see Dave Ramsey, right?

Like, you know, America's, you know, favorite uncle or whatever.

And he's doing this call in show.

He does all this stuff.

And I was like, how much and we had done this feature on him on pod that blew my mind.

Sam, you knew a little bit about this, but he has like a huge campus of like his office.

It's like, it's in Tennessee.

He's got like, you know, multiple buildings, hundreds of people on staff.

I was like, dude, how big is this guy's podcast that he could pay for that?

That sounds a little outrageous.

Like what's going on here?

And it's basically the podcast, the books, all of that is just lead gen for people to

come to him.

And if you go to his website, it'll say, what do you, what do you need?

You want insurance?

You want a mortgage?

You want to learn how to save money?

You want tax help?

Talk to people with the Ramsey shield.

And basically what he does is he goes and finds local people in your market.

He, they have to pay to apply.

So they pay some number, some amount of money and like, you know, a couple of

thousand dollars to get certified.

And when they're certified, so he makes money off them, but then for them, it's a

no-brainer because they're going to get leads from his giant top of funnel.

Like his website, if you go to like, whatever the traffic, you know, analysis on

similar web, it says it gets 10 million visits a month on his website.

So he's getting a huge amount of traffic that he just funnels down to these providers.

And he basically gets his cut and they, and these advisors all have the shields.

Like, what does the shield mean?

It's like, our team has vetted them.

That's like, what, you don't know if these guys are, you know, what are you

actually doing out here?

And I'm pretty sure this entire business is making like 300 million a year.

Um, and this is off or more, a combination of basically his, like the Ramsey

trusted advisors, and it's basically like they follow the Ramsey rules.

Um, and it's like, what are the Ramsey rules?

It's like, oh, you know, there's parts of his philosophy that they follow.

And, um, and so they can, they can either pay for the leads or they pay for the

certification and just off this lead gen, he's just generating just like tons and

tons of cash.

And then on top of that, he's got his like, his university and then he's got his

media ad stuff.

So the combination of all those is sort of like a 300 million plus a year empire,

which is pretty insane.

And it's doing exactly what you described, Jack.

It's a, it's a layer that I call it a router business.

It's going to route you to the service you want.

Yeah.

And, you know, I'm the router because I'm the trusted source.

And if I do actually do a good job of curating or hand selecting and people

get a good outcome from it, then this can be a sustainable business.

And so, yeah, I think you're absolutely right on that.

And what's the other one?

Yeah.

What's this RT FM?

What does that mean?

Oh, um, RT FM, I just meant like read the fucking manual.

So basically I was talking to someone, um, have someone shelping me with,

like mid-journey and all this stuff just came out, right?

And then I was just trying to figure out, like, I kind of just delegated to him,

like, all right, we, let's just see if mid-journey can help us.

So I said, I'm building this like physical place.

And I'm like, just see if it can make us some mockups.

So take this image of a cabin and this image of the piece of land and just see

if mid-journey can blend them together.

And we even hire people of artwork to, uh, and for five are like mid-journey experts

to help us and the results sucked.

And then they was not doing what I asked.

And then he had said he'd been playing around with for a while.

And then I was at some point I was like, oh, fuck it.

I should, this is going to be a valuable skill.

I should learn how it works at least.

The first step I did is I read the mid-journey, um, guidebook that they have.

And it explains how to do it.

And then within 15 minutes, I saw like, Hey guys, we can do what I'm asking.

You just have to use this certain command.

Do you, do you even read the fucking manual about how this works?

I think most people don't read the manual.

Like manuals are boring, right?

They read the manual.

They're just trying to figure it out themselves and look at YouTube.

And then I was just like, just read the manual is pretty simple.

And so I think if you just do the basics that most people don't read the fucking

manual about how mid-journey works or chat, GPT or something.

There's so many people that the AI is this merging trend, but they're fucking lazy.

I'm going to read the 20 page manual and you can kind of just tell them like,

Oh, you want to do that?

I'll just do it for you.

It maybe only takes you five seconds, but you can just charge them a premium.

You know, actually, um, my wife, she has a startup and she said, there's this guy.

Um, he's going around.

He's doing conference in a different country, like every few days about AI and

he's teaching business leaders like, Oh, mid-journey, chat, GPT.

This is how you use it.

This is a, I asked my wife.

I'm like, what's that guy's actual credential?

And he's not, he's not, he's just a nobody, but he's saying that he's an AI expert

because everybody is only just came out with something and he's just running

workshops and charging business leaders a load of money about how to

tremendous in your business.

And so I think if you just, you know, if you just don't sleep and just learn

mid-journey, chat, GPT, learn all of these things, only came out with some

you can be a fault leader and write a book, launch it, launch on Amazon,

a book, how to use chat GPT in your business and launch it for each vertical

using chat GPT for lawyers and accounting and whatever.

Um, you guys are in the group.

I don't know if you saw, um, Sean is more active Sam, not, but people were

talking about this business case text, just got acquired by Lexus Nexus for

$750 million and actually in the investor report, it's kind of embarrassing,

but in the investor report, the, um, Lexus Nexus said, the reason we paid

$700 million for this business is because they came up with eight prompts

for, for open AI about how to make it give good responses to law questions.

So they're kind of openly saying this business is just a layer on top of open

AI. They just came up with eight prompt texts and so we're buying them for 700

million. Tell me more about this company.

I mean, I'm not an expert, but someone in the group who is in the industry

said Lexus Nexus is competitor has just come out with some AI thing.

And so Lexus Nexus, which is like multi-billion dollar company was like,

Oh shit, like we need to get up to speed and we need to get up to speed fast.

And so they just paid this ludicrous or what people were saying is ludicrous

some because they need to get up to speed.

But literally in the investor report, they said the reason we are buying

this business is because they have eight proprietary prompts.

And then anyone who's used GPT or anything knows that's like not very much

intellectual property or whatever you're buying, you know, I think case text

has been around for like 10 years, though.

So whatever they were doing before, you know, they were, they were around.

So like, I think they have like on the website right now says 10,000 law firms

use them. So, you know, it's not literally just eight prompts.

But I get I get your point.

And definitely they got the the AI premium on the exit here because

you know, became immediately strategic and urgent for for Lexus Nexus.

And I'm totally with you about the the, you know, you could become an expert

in mid-journey and chat GPT in like nine days, nine days of like trying to do shit.

And then basically figuring out how that applies to certain vertical

or job is is definitely like a thing that that can exist and should exist.

I had the same thing.

I was trying to use it in my business, my Ecom business.

And I was like, how do I do this?

And I just reached out to the guy at runway and I was like, hey,

I'm trying to take an image and make a very similar image.

And I was like, it's not like I can't do text to image.

I can't describe this image.

I have an image. I want another one like it.

And I want actually 50 variations of it. Can you do that?

He's like, oh, yeah, we have image damage. Just go over here.

And I was like, oh, thank you.

Like this would have, I didn't know even which tool to use.

I wouldn't have known what it's called.

I wouldn't have known how to do it.

And then, oh, I did it.

But there's one problem.

He's like, oh, just change this setting, blah, blah.

And then it just fixed it.

I was like, wow, that's that's amazing.

It saved me so much time.

And you really do have to play with these things.

And most people don't have the time or the patience to go play

with these things to figure out how they actually work as a business leader.

You pay your lawyer $1,000, $1,500 an hour to give you tax advice, right?

Why would someone not pay that for a mid-journ person

if they can answer their question in an hour for a world leader?

Mark Cuban has this great blog.

I don't think he updates anymore, but he was writing it for maybe a couple of decades now.

It's really old.

And I used to go back and read his old post.

And a lot of people don't know this, but he actually got his first

like two or three million dollars of wealth when he was 31

because he started this thing called Micro Solutions.

It was basically, I forget how he described it, but it was basically like a like an IT agency.

So like if a big ish or even a small company was like implementing Oracle or something like that,

he would help install it on everyone's computer and then teach people how to use it.

And he he goes, the reason my company was successful

wasn't because I necessarily was an expert on this stuff.

But he goes, I was the only one and he used their same acronym.

He was I was the only one who read the fucking manual.

He goes, I would stay up late at night and I would read the fucking manual

and I would just learn how does this HP computer work?

And the next day I could go and like talk to a business owner and explain how it works

and say, yeah, we can install that thing or this thing or that thing.

And then I would go and read the manual on those other things.

And that's all I did.

And it was hard work and I stayed up all night reading these things.

But that's how I became an expert in the stuff is I just read the manual, which no one does.

And it's pretty funny because he used the exact.

I think he has a blog post actually that has the exact same acronym that you have.

Here's what he said exactly.

It's a blog post called How to Win at the Sport of Business.

He goes, every night I would take home a different software manual and I would read it.

Of course, the reading was captivating.

I'm reading Peachtree Accounting, WordStar, Harvard Graphics, you know, Lotus, Apex.

At every night I would read some after getting home, no matter how late it was.

It turns out not a lot of people ever bother to RTFM, read the freaking manual.

And so it turned out so so people really started thinking that I knew my stuff.

And that's all I was doing.

Yeah, it's hilarious.

And he like talks and he talks about that in a ton of different blog posts

where he talks about read the read the freaking manual.

It's it's quite good.

And he attributes that to like a lot of his early success.

You have a few others that I got to ask you about.

OK, so you wrote on this little cheat sheet, you wrote,

you know, non obvious barriers to entry for business.

And then you said hacking the iPhone to record screen.

What are you talking about here?

Not obvious barriers, barriers to entry for business.

Sure. And I mean, as I said, you don't have to be the first mover to market

but to be successful in business.

But when an entirely new product comes out, there are opportunities to.

The product, that's why I was able to hack LinkedIn ads

that the hack we've talked about before, because LinkedIn just launched it.

So it was not properly bug checked and all that stuff, you know.

Now, the idea I was saying, or it's not necessarily a business idea,

but where you could discover opportunities for me and to give an example

is that you might have a wedge or like a business.

You might have a you might have a hack that's not a business,

but maybe it can go somewhere from that initial kind of hack, you know.

So to give an example with fungal back in like 2010,

the business I had before, we were making educational videos

like how to use Adobe Photoshop and stuff like this.

So like videos about desktop, like computer applications

and fairly around that time, I think a year before

the iPhone app store had launched and I was reading this Gartner report

like iPhone apps are going to blow up.

And then I was kind of feeling like, wait, so we're doing this for desktop

and apps on your computer.

Why could we not do the same on your iPhone?

Now, that nowadays is very easy to record your screen on the iPhone, right?

Like you just pull down and tap the screen.

At the time, you could not record the iPhone screen.

Now, I read a little bit online and I kind of felt like, hey,

I think I've looked at these different pieces of hardware.

It's like a camcorder mixed with like this cable you plug in with the iPhone,

but you have to jailbreak the iPhone, etc., etc.

I was like, I reckon or just have a hunch that if we put these together,

I might be able to figure out how to record the iPhone screen.

Now, my co-founder, he was like, do this fucking waste of time.

Like you've got 48 hours to try this out, otherwise we need to move on.

All right.

Now, not that many people know this, but actually the Apple Store

lets you buy a product and you can return it within 14 days,

even if you used it.

A MacBook, an iPhone, an iPad, you can return it used.

So we had an intern.

It was his first day there.

And I basically said, our company, we have about $1,000 in the bank account.

And I told him, like, take this credit bank credit card.

And I told him, just spend our entire budget at the Apple Store.

I want you to buy the latest iPhone and latest iPad.

And your first task as the intern is jailbreak this.

And we have 48 hours to figure out if we can record the screen from this.

Because my co-founder thinks it's waste of time, I think it's not.

And and we and then we're going to return it off within 14 days.

So we have a time time buffer because we don't have $1,000 to just throw around.

So we're going to play around with this iPhone max 14 days.

Then we're going to send it back.

We managed to record.

We managed to record the screen.

It was a free.

It was taking like a camcorder cable.

You had to jailbreak the iPhone, etc., etc.

But we managed to get this unique thing where we could record the screen

of the iPhone at that time.

We didn't have anything useful to do with it.

This is like, OK, great, we can record the screen in the iPhone.

What can we do with this?

But later on, when we built the video ad network, when we came up

with the idea about the video ad network, the Vongo is today.

Obviously, if you're going to run a video ad, an app needs to have

an advertisement to run, right?

And we were the only because we had just started with this.

We actually just had an in-house production studio.

That's how we initially made money, but charging $500 to make a video for your app.

But $500 that kind of sucks.

But what we did is we parlayed that idea.

And at some point, we made the best videos of anyone, like app

loving or whoever, they couldn't make a video.

So what they'd have to do is you'd have to spend thousands of dollars

hiring creative ad agency who probably used a camera to record the iPhone screen.

Or you had to do loads of work as the developer and send them all your image assets.

We could literally record the screen of the iPhone that others could not.

And so what we said is like, hey, guys, we're no longer.

You can't buy a video from us anymore.

The people loved our videos, the best quality videos.

But we're like, even if you offer us $2,000, we don't make videos anymore.

But if you spend more than $25,000 on our advertising network,

we'll make you the video for free.

And our videos are the best, so they're going to convert amazingly as well.

But you can you can use the video on your website and stuff,

but you cannot use this video on app loving or any other network.

It's proprietary to us.

So that was a hack that worked for Vongole.

And what I would say, obviously, you have to have a credit card that had this limit

and check that Apple actually allows this.

But what I would do is if I am 20 years old and I have a credit card

because America gives it from credit cards, I would go to the Apple store.

The first day the Apple Vision Pro comes out and I would try and hack it

and jailbreak it and play around with it, look up online and jailbreak it.

And I would try and find hacks like how to record the screen of the Apple Vision Pro.

That's not going to be a feature at day one.

No one needs to do that.

If you can hack it and do that, you have something proprietary.

You could launch a business off the back of that.

And I would return it within 14 days and maybe go to another Apple store

and buy it and get my friends buy it or something.

But that is one opportunity of like, you know, it's a hack.

It's not a business, but that unique hack that no one else has

can lead you to have a barrier to entry to be successful

and build a billion dollar business in a tangential industry from there.

I love that. I love that.

You also have a couple on here.

You said, why I believe in the law of attraction and practice implications.

This is interesting to me because I think there's like people

who believe in the law of attraction and they also, you know,

believe in horoscopes and crystals and other stuff, too, probably.

And then there's people who are, you know,

hyper logical, rational, problem solver types

that typically don't believe in something like the law of attraction.

I would have pegged you as more of the practical, logical, problem solver type.

But you're saying you believe in this.

So tell me why you believe in this and what do you mean by practical applications?

Yeah, people that are really rational, like my brother-in-law,

it's a bit hard to talk about this topic because they're so rational.

I'm pretty rational, but I'm also open minded stuff.

Now, law of attraction, the interpretation, many people with the crystals take.

And I kind of, it was kind of funny because I went to somebody that did this alternative

kind of kind of like massage therapy, but like alternative.

And then she was doing it at her house.

But then on the bookshelf was like a book like how to manifest well

to be able to believe that something.

But then I'm like, well, you're in this like really crappy studio.

So how's that going for you, you know, like on the extreme alternative

side that you're talking about, Sean, like doing horoscopes or whatever.

I'm somewhere in the middle where I'm like

law of attraction, so popularized by the book called The Secret.

If you just do it at the basic level, it's just like, oh, just like think about

what you want and it will manifest and appear to you.

But actually, there's a book that I like called practical law of attraction.

And what is kind of saying, to be honest, it basically, I didn't know about this

stuff when I was launching my business, but it kind of actually reaffirmed the

stuff that I was already doing in my life, to be honest, which is like

clearly, clearly feeling and defining what you want and then taking steps to get there.

Now, why I think there's a practical application and why I do believe in it.

I don't believe that you just think of it and then nothing happens.

I think, now, to give a, let me just give an example story that reaffirms this.

I was living with my roommate and at this time, my business was going pretty good,

but he was trying to launch a business off the ground and he was 35 and he was

trying to fundraise, raise a C round and he could not raise any money at all.

And his mindset was just stuck about feeling sorry for himself.

Like, he was just like, oh, I read on TechCrunch about 18 year olds getting into

Y Combinator, but nobody respects me.

Like, I have way more experience than him, but investors, they must just, they don't

value me, they blah, blah, blah, he's feeling sorry for himself.

He's having negative energy.

I mean, a prime example of it was like one day, he called me and like, really like anxious

and he's like, oh my God, Jack, like a letter from the IRS arrived for you.

And I'm like, uh, dude, I'm sure it's not that big of a deal, but he's like, dude,

well, what the fuck, but he's freaking out, right?

And, uh, lo and behold, it actually was a refund check.

They were giving me a rich one, but he had this negative mindset.

And I feel that obviously people study body language and all this stuff, but I

feel that law of attraction works because there is so many micro signals and body

language, we're projecting to people all around us that we're not in control of

and don't even know.

And so I feel for me, I and my co-founder, we were convinced we're going to raise

funding and we're the shit.

And I think that investors and stuff can tell, you know, you can tell if someone's

bluffing, so he's going into this meeting and he's got a hundred rejections and he's

feeling sorry for himself.

He's already going in with the idea that these people, um, are not going to invest

in me.

And so they are just sensing that this guy's a loser, right?

Um, versus me, I'm just like, we're going to raise funding.

And so when I say something, like an investor one time asked us, like, how's

your fundraising going?

We had no investors, but we told him, like, oh, it's going amazing.

We're just, we got a bunch of top tier people interested.

We're just deciding who's going to be the best fit for our business.

And the guy kind of freaked out and it actually gave us a term sheet because I

think he could tell that we believed it.

We were not lying because we actually believed it.

Now, what was amazing with my friend is at just at some point, I just noticed

him adopt a mindset shift, just one day, basically.

And at some point he basically just said, like, all right, look, what I've

been doing thus far, it hasn't worked.

And, and he also was saying that he looked at me a bit as a bit inspiration

because Jack just, it doesn't worry about this stuff, you know, and he's like,

I realized that I haven't been going all in because I'm scared that if I

don't raise funding, I'm going to look like a failure to my network.

And so if I try and do a business again, then they'll think like, oh, well,

he failed at the last one, I'm not going to do it again.

But he's like, from this day forward, I'm adopting a mindset that if I do not

raise funding for this business, I'm never going to try and raise funding

for a business ever again.

This is my one shot and I'm going to go all in.

And he looked up all his connections on LinkedIn and he was not embarrassed

about rejection or that he would look stupid to them in the future.

He's like, I'm going to ask every single person in my network for investor intros.

Literally within a month or so, he raised amazing seed round.

Business now has raised over $25 million because he just went all in.

And I think that people could tell that he had the conviction, you know,

he's telling them now he's not feeling sorry for himself.

Like, I can't raise money.

He's like, I'm going to raise funding and this business is going to be

fucking huge and just it was amazing to see him adopt that mindset shift.

And so that is an example for me of law of attraction is like, yes,

you're manifesting it and whatever shit, but you're actually believing it

and you're projecting it to others.

Now think he's adopted that new mindset, right?

So if an investor rejects him, in his original view,

that would have reaffirmed his original view, right?

Like, oh, all the investors hate me and I'm never going to raise funding

because I just got rejected if with this new mindset, actually,

it doesn't necessarily have to change every single outcome in every interaction

you have, but it also changes how you view them.

If one investor rejects him, now you'll just be like, oh, well,

I'm going to raise funding.

So I guess this guy was just not fit.

I just move on to the next one.

You wouldn't see it as we affirming that you suck.

You would just be like, oh, this investor is an idiot.

Like I'm still going to raise funding.

It doesn't distract you from the part.

So that is what I was thinking about when it comes to law of attraction.

And I've, we've been friends for a while, but I remember very distinctly

and you might need to fill in some of the details, right?

And I'll try to be vague and you could decide what you want to share.

But I remember distinctly, I think we were, I think we were at my apartment

in Soma, in Soma when you came over, or we could have been at my house

in Glen Park, but I remember like distinctly hanging out with you.

And you had just, Vongole hadn't sold yet, but you had sold some shares

to live off of because you were basically, you didn't have a lot of money.

You sold some shares and you, you got maybe hundreds of thousands of dollars.

But you lived off that for like three years and it was at the very end of that money.

And you had, you didn't even tell me.

I asked like how things are going.

Do you have enough money to last until you think the company's going to sell?

And you're like, yeah, I think it's going to sell for a whole lot of money

for hundreds of millions of dollars and I'll be fine when that happens.

And I was like, but how are you now?

And for some reason, I remember I saw your Robinhood account

or I saw one of your accounts and I don't know if you remember this,

but I think there was single digit thousand dollars left

because you had made like a really dumb trade.

Do you remember that?

And you were like totally calm and I remember like being around you

and it was like you're you're one of my like three best friends.

And I remember thinking like, oh, like you're my family now.

Like you have inspired me because you actually were living what you're talking about now.

Do you remember that? Do you remember when that happened?

And I mean, in line with that, basically, yeah, I got a bit of money,

like as you said, a secondary, right?

And I was living and then the money was running out.

Doesn't last forever.

I think that I I saw from the previous episode,

people like talking about specific numbers, right?

So I think that when I I think, yeah, I think that when I left Vungal

and then tried doing ship and it didn't work out, etc.

But I didn't have any many savings at Vungal.

I think I got a hundred and twenty thousand dollar salary.

We paid us after we raised funding, but prior to that, we've never taken any money.

And then just to help me out because I was like, hey, dude,

I don't actually have any money.

My co-founder Vungal helped give me an introduction to some people

that bought a secondary of some of my stock.

Now, I think that a comment was that I think it was five hundred thousand

and I hadn't held the stock for five years.

So it was not qualified.

This thing called QSBS yet.

So I basically had to pay a bunch.

You probably have to pay the half of that in tax being California, right?

So I had like, let's say, 250 K left.

That's not a load of that's not a lot of money in San Francisco.

To pay your rent, food, you have no other income.

Now, I was advising companies and stuff, but they don't give you they give you equity.

They're not giving you money.

And my money was running out.

And Sam, like you said, I didn't have much money left.

And people were saying to me, like, hey, dude, what are you going to do

if you run out of money?

And I was like, oh, I guess I'll have to get a job.

But I'm not really contemplating that right now.

I don't have a timeline for when business is going to exit.

But I kind of feel something is telling me that is I'm going to be all right.

I'm not freaking out about it.

Even worst case scenario, I'll move back in with my parents, whatever.

But I was not making a plan B.

What was the dumb trade?

I was day trading, like options, trading and all this shit.

And kind of funny.

You're like, 250 K is not a lot of money in San Francisco for food,

rent and my day trading business.

I and with hindsight is very stupid.

But like I was day trading and stuff to try and make some money.

When I look back in hindsight, I actually was spending like a few hours a day

because I just got interested in trading.

So learned options, trading and all this spending a few hours a day.

I actually would have made more money if I had just put it in the vanguard VTR.

It's S&P 500 has wasted all this time and yes, lost a load of money.

Yeah. So that was just a negative trait of experiments.

I guess the way you described it, I've heard described differently.

So Tony Robbins did this.

This is a video on YouTube of him talking about this, where he says, like,

you know, you've ever heard of the phrase like a vicious cycle.

And you know, vicious cycle is kind of like what you described your friend

was initially doing, which is he draws these three circles.

He says, first one's belief, second one's action, third is results.

He goes, like, what do you do when you like, let's say you're you're supposed

to do something, but you don't really think it's going to work.

It doesn't matter what it is.

Like, you know, you're looking for the salt and, you know, your girlfriend says

it's in the cabinet, but you already looked there.

You don't think it's there.

So you kind of you go, you don't really rummage around too much

because you don't believe it's there.

Right. So basically low belief typically creates, you know, lower weak action

and lower weak action almost always creates bad results.

And then the message, the story we tell ourselves is, see, I knew it.

I knew it wouldn't work.

And then it just reinforces the low belief.

And that's the vicious cycle that happens for people.

You know, it could be, I don't really believe that I'm going to stick to this diet.

And so therefore I'm not really that hardcore, but I start to slip.

And then my results say, yeah, you never stick to what you say.

And then you reinforce a low belief, right?

It could be on the end.

It could be business, it could be personal, it could be whatever.

And then there's the exact opposite, which is the virtuous cycle.

The virtuous cycle is massive belief.

This is going to work.

What happens when you believe something's really going to work?

You wake up before the alarm clock, you get out of bed, you start doing it immediately.

You can't wait and you take massive action.

What happens when you take massive action for a while?

You start to get good results or massive results.

When you get massive results and reinforces the belief, see, I knew this shit was going to work.

And so that's the difference between winners and losers,

is which side of that cycle do you go down?

And like the core thing is there's some people who just wait for a result to happen

to inform their belief.

And what that basically means, I'm going to sort of wait to hope to get lucky

and then I'll start to believe.

And I think anybody who's in the kind of entrepreneurial bucket,

the prereq for any result is the belief.

And you have to have that sort of massive conviction or massive belief

in yourself and in what you're doing.

And that part is the, that's the law of attraction part.

That's the part where it's faith.

It hasn't happened yet.

You believe it will happen.

And because you believe it will happen, you're right.

It's not like law of, not like the secret where they're just like close your eyes and you say,

I'm not, you know, there are no weeds in the backyard.

There are no weeds in the backyard.

You look, oh, there's still weeds in the backyard.

Well, you didn't take any action.

You didn't go and get rid of the weeds is, you know, the action is a requirement to actually do this.

You also mentioned one other thing on that, which said, you have to feel it

versus just say it.

Is there a difference there?

Because when I talk to people who kind of really believe in this,

they overemphasize this feeling, feeling it part versus just saying it

or trying to believe it in your head.

So my wife is totally not into this at all.

And maybe it just doesn't work for her, but she's like,

dude, I can't just feel that I'm going to, I can't just feel it's going to work.

It doesn't work for her.

But for me, maybe I'm just delusional or I just have conviction in something,

but I just sometimes just feel it's going to work.

And I guess one bit that is related to this a bit is like perhaps

adopting different mindset personas.

So I saw this interview with Beyonce and they were asking her about like,

she has her thing like Sasha Fierce, her nickname.

And they were like, when do you become Sasha Fierce?

And when are you just Beyonce?

They're saying it was a joke, but she's like, I literally become Sasha Fierce

before I'm going to go on the stage because when I'm Beyonce, I'm nervous.

I think people are going to hate me or whatever.

And I just adopt this alternative persona that I am Sasha Fierce

and I'm going to kill this performance.

People are going to love it.

It's amazing because they're adopting.

She's adopting some persona and she's really feeling it.

I don't necessarily adopt this persona, but that is the feeling that I think would be the same.

Yeah, I do the same thing.

And I also think that who do you become?

I have this persona that I created.

Angry Patel.

Like, what are you going to become?

And again, this is another one that came out of Tony Robbins.

He goes, we all have a version of our personality.

Raise your hand if you've ever been super kind to others.

Yeah, you have everybody raise their hand.

Raise your hand if you ever made selfish choices and been a selfish asshole.

Everybody raises their hand.

We all have all these features of our personalities.

The question is, who's driving the car right now?

And he's like, people think that they come to this weekend workshop and I'm going to,

oh, Tony Robbins, you change your life.

In fact, when you go home, people sort of mock you like, oh, so what happened?

You're a whole new guy now.

And he's like, obviously, you don't become a whole new person after 35 years in one weekend.

But he's like, one thing we will do is he's like, I'm going to take the most badass version of you.

And that's who gets to drive this weekend.

And if it's only for this weekend and you decide after this weekend,

I don't want that person to be the one who's making decisions from now on.

All right, fine, fair play.

But for these next two days, that's who's in charge.

We all have a version of ourselves that is the more badass version of ourselves,

the one that does believe it's going to happen.

The one that is decisive versus indecisive, all these traits.

He's like, and what do you call when you, I forgot what he said.

He's like, we're going to make that personality our bitch.

And he's like, what do you do when you train a dog?

You give it a name and you train it to come when you call it.

And he's like, so you're going to give it a name.

You're going to figure out how you're going to be able to adopt that state when you want to be in that state.

He's like, that takes practice reps and we're going to get a bunch of reps at it this weekend.

And you have to figure out, all right, what is the version of me that does have

those traits that does walk that way, that does make those decisions?

And then can you call it on command or are you only going to do it when you feel good?

Are you only going to do it when the weather's nice?

Like, no, no, you want to be able to have that on demand when you want it.

He says the same thing.

Like, I think his real name is not Tony Robbins either.

It's like his original name was like Anthony.

He's got some other last name.

He's like, people see me now and they're seeing me on stage and all the stuff.

They think, oh man, Tony, you're amazing.

You're just special.

He's like, no, I was Anthony, blah, blah, blah.

I was broke.

I was fat.

I was all these things.

He's like, I created this Tony Robbins motherfucker.

I created him.

And I was like, I like that part of the thing that he was talking about because it's,

I think, more empowering.

If you feel like, oh, you just are the way you are and that's it.

You're a fixed quantity and it's based on your genetics.

It's based on your childhood, things you didn't have control of versus this idea that,

oh, I actually have multiple versions of my personality.

There's some that I would want to be in charge more often than others.

And I can craft that.

I can create that version of me that I want.

That's a different mindset.

Some people don't believe it.

Some people are really married to their upbringing and their past traumas and their DNA.

That's not how I look at the world at least.

Dude, this is getting me amped.

I feel good.

I feel like I need to go create my version of Sasha Fierce.

Jack, you inspire me.

I'm happy.

I feel thankful.

We're friends.

I feel thankful that you came here.

You're a very inspiring person.

I just feel, I feel, you do have, it's like you're almost not inspiring because you're

not this like crazy intimidating person or I guess you're the right type of inspiring

because you're not this like crazy intimidating person.

But you have, and you have a very mild manner.

I'll be with you and other friends.

And I'd be like, Jack, I already know, you know all about this topic that they're talking about.

But you're just sitting here asking questions.

Why aren't you like pumping your chest more?

Or like you are dressed like this bum right now at this thing.

All these people think that you're just like one of my loser friends.

But you're like successful not in terms of just finances, but you've got like this awesome marriage.

You're my successful friend, dude.

Can you help me out here a little bit?

Well, I'll be like, you're like successful in like all attributes.

Like I know you're like really insightful.

I know you're successful.

Traditionally, you've got all these like amazing things, but you're, you don't even like,

you want me to brag about you?

That's like, I feel like I've got to like sometimes like put you in a pedestal.

But that's one of the things I love about you is like, you're just very, very...

Meek is a bad word because that almost sounds insulting, but you're very humble

and you're very mild mannered.

And that's one of the reasons why I love when you come on here and you like explain some of these

stories because you never ever brag about yourself.

And I like hearing you do that every once in a while.

Check.

Yeah. Well, thanks for having me on again.

I mean, I pick you up on that.

I mean, what it is very important for me just to, I guess just from my childhood and stuff, but

I've always tried to be humble and I'm not judging anyone.

It doesn't matter.

I will have an in-depth conversation with like to give you an example.

I'm here in Portugal, right?

And there's a guy, I pay a guy to come and pick up on my recycling.

I'll, my cardboard is taking the cardboard to the trash.

So trash man.

I'll have an in-depth conversation with him about how his life is going and stuff like that.

And I think it is good to remember that you can be successful and still be

humble and not judge people about where they're at now.

Sam, like your father-in-law lives with like a celebrity and he said like,

the celebrity just fucking, it lives in the same apartment complex

and treats everyone like shit and ignores him.

He's like, and he, and he's, they're both rich.

And the thing to remember, I think is where people are in their life now

is not where they're going to be in 10 years.

And people, if you treat them like shit, they're going to remember.

Like I, when I was 19, 20, we pitched a VC in London, a venture capitalist.

And we'd been speaking to the associates.

We had a few meetings with them.

And yes, we had nothing and our idea was terrible.

But the associates said like, hey, the partners agreed to have a meeting with you,

just like come by here at like 6pm to come by the office.

And we're like, okay, it's a bit of a weird time to come by, but sure, whatever.

And we had no money, like spent the money.

My business partner especially was in a lot of debt.

We spent the money, got an underground ticket, went there, et cetera.

In within 10 to 15 minutes of the meeting getting started,

because the guy was asking us questions is like,

you guys don't have a business.

This is just like shit.

And at like 6.15, he's just like, yo, I've got to go to dinner.

So this meeting's over.

10 years, 15, however many years, it's been more than 10 years later.

We still remember that meeting.

And that guy treated us like shit.

He's still got a VC fund.

If he asked me for deal flow, I'm not going to give it.

I'm not going to pretend that never happened.

I'm like, dude, I remember how you treated me when I was shit.

You always do weird stuff like this that makes sense.

But I'm like, no, why would you ever do that?

So like, for example, you named your child.

So Jack has a two year old now.

You named your child baby.

Yeah.

You told me you're like, I'm just going to name her baby for the first 12 months

because I want to get to know her.

And I was like, dude, like everything about your life is weird.

Can you just do something normal for the kid?

And you're like, no, I think this actually makes more sense.

And then I got to know her and I like, and then you should talk about the naming ceremony.

But you did this thing where you named her after a year and you're like, this name,

like it fit her more.

And I had to get to know her a little bit.

And I was like, after a year, I was like, that actually makes so much sense,

but it's so not normal.

But you're always doing these weird things that actually appear to be,

well, you've done a lot of stupid stuff.

But you've done a lot of things that actually like are pretty amazing,

but are not normal at all.

And that's one of my favorite parts about you.

You know what I mean?

Cool.

Thanks.

And I mean, also, because I listened to the pot a lot,

I noticed that you guys hadn't talked about Sam had made a massive announcement on

all his social that now he's going to be having a baby.

And so notice you guys hadn't talked about that.

So I had some of the different wackier things I've done with my baby.

If you wanted to talk about them and naming ceremony was one of them.

Yeah.

You know, me and Sam just were just like guys.

We're just like, yeah, nice job with the thing.

All right.

Let's move on.

You know, girls are like, oh my God, congratulations.

I'm so excited for you.

Wow.

How?

Oh my God, you look, you're glowing, Sam.

You look amazing.

And I was just like, hey, dude, good shit about the, you know, all right.

Let's talk about business.

Your stuff's working.

Congratulations.

Well, I wasn't sure.

I wasn't sure like what I wanted to put on the internet.

And I haven't actually made my decision.

What?

Oh, you made your decision.

Sam posted a shirtless picture of himself to celebrate the baby.

I was like, oh, wow, that is, that is an unbelievable combination there.

Like that's what an upsell created in this photo.

I was like, I got a bump announcement with this shirt on flexing.

And Sarah like, in the middle of my stomach.

She's like half cropped out of the photo.

It's like, oh yeah, by the way, there's a baby over there.

Hey, that's the only reason why we did the whole thing.

Do you, do you put your, do you put your kid's face on the internet?

I don't think you have.

Maybe on Facebook, Sean.

Have you checked?

No, I have.

But you only do it on Facebook, right?

Where it's just like friends.

Well, my wife does on her own Instagram.

So, you know, that's like, but you know, it's just her friends.

So.

Yeah, I'm trying to decide what to do.

I think I don't mind, but I don't know.

Anyway, I'm still like working through that.

Let's go through some of the things you did on the parenting side, Jack.

So the naming thing, Sam talked about it.

Yeah, let's do that.

Let's finish that one.

So how'd you come up with that idea?

Do you think it was a good idea?

And eventually, how did you actually end up naming her besides baby?

So basically, again, coming like, basically, I think one of my values maybe is I don't

like being told what to do and relating to what we were just talking about.

I also like to question norms.

So preparing to give birth or maybe even, yeah, you're preparing to give birth.

What I read online and the midwife, et cetera, saying is you have to pick a baby's name

before you leave the hospital.

So we can put it on her birth certificate and health stuff.

And so, and I was like, but why do you have to do that?

Like that's quite a short deadline that you have to pick a name before you leave the hospital.

After you go through this traumatic experience.

Yeah.

I was like, I don't really like being told to do that.

Like, does she really need a name or he or she like just been born?

Like, do you really need a name?

You don't really need.

And so basically, I researched and it varies state by state.

But I found that as long as both parents consent, this was in Hawaii where I was,

as long as both parents consent within the first 12 months,

you can change a baby's name without having to go to court or anything like that.

You just fill out a form and as long as both parents consent,

we just had like a no tree come to our house.

You can change the name pretty easily.

So I was like, okay, well, I mean, the first conclusion was,

I don't want to have to pick a name before leaving the hospital.

There's too much rush for me and it's also telling me what to do.

So my wife, the last name was more important to my wife because she's Korean and in their culture,

they have like a book of last names and whatever.

And we kind of made a deal, okay, the baby can have your last name,

but I get to take a lead on the first name.

But I wouldn't pick it by myself, but I get to take a lead on what is it?

And so then I was like, okay, well, we'll just have the first name as baby.

And so that is what we did at the hospital, like on the birth certificate, etc.

So submitted it.

And then I did get a call from the Department of Health or whatever,

like a week later.

And they're like, okay, we just want to confirm.

And Stan, you've had a recent birth, just want to confirm the name.

And I was like, yes, it is B-A-B-Y.

And they're like, okay, so just to clarify, it's baby, the name of your baby.

And then it kind of surprised me because I was like, yeah, that's correct.

And then the guy was like, okay, that's cool.

I mean, actually I've worked here 10 years and there has been one or two other people

who've done this before as well, actually.

And I was pretty surprised about that.

But anyway, and then I also felt like in Southeast Asian culture, like China,

Korea, maybe some other places, they have this kind of just for fun, they have this ritual

when the baby is a year old or so, they put it, the baby on the floor.

And on the other end of the room, they put down like a stethoscope, a law book,

stuff like this.

And they just let the baby crawl and whatever it picked.

It's like, oh, it picked a stethoscope?

That means you're going to be a doctor.

And then it's just for fun, like, let's do this.

Indians do that too, but it's just three stethoscopes.

Yeah.

Oh, you're supposed to pick up all of them.

Exactly.

Yeah.

Except like 50 years ago, they started adding like little motels that you could pick.

You know, they're like, oh, nice.

An eco large.

All right, thank you.

For my bit, then I was like, all right, what if we actually did that?

But we just have different names.

So then she can pick her own name.

Because I also remembered that when I was, when the first joining high school,

like the first day of school, they were like, all right, everyone go around the room

and say an interesting fact about yourself.

And I remember I couldn't really think about an interesting fact about myself.

And I was like, oh, well, if I do this, then she's always going to have an interesting

fact about herself, right?

Like I picked my own name.

It's pretty instinct.

So I was like, that's pretty cool.

And this like product obsession, you've done this with babies.

So Jack's actually the best gift giver of all time.

So what he does is like for my big, my big life events, he'll like one time when we got married,

he sent me this, maybe like three really big boxes.

I bet you there was like three or $4,000 with the products in there.

And he'll send me like a variety of products.

And then he sends you a list of a paper that's like three pages long.

And it's a detailed description that says like, this is blank.

The reason why it's the best.

And he like explains it.

And it's like, sometimes it's really random, for example, he was like,

these are the best baptiles because they have a little bit of copper in them,

which prevents molding.

Or he even like my wife uses lotion all the time.

He's like, this is the best lotion.

It's the best because it uses this vitamin or whatever.

And it was like crazy.

Or it was even like, these are the best gummy bears because they're low in sugar,

but they still taste sweet, but they only use stevia.

And you did it with like maybe 50 items.

And then when I told you we were pregnant, you sent me this box.

But it was all baby stuff.

And you're like, this baby formula, it's meant for babies that are three months old.

But I actually think it's best for newborns because it's the same thing as the newborn one.

But like there's a small very, I forget exactly everything,

but it was like this massive list.

And you're doing now, are you doing that now with all the baby stuff?

Or you're just like literally analyzing every product?

Yeah, I test out quite a bit.

I mean, the reason I gave it to you as a gift is because you and Sarah had told me like,

oh, you should create a business like Jack's box of like your favorite stuff.

I didn't actually want to do it in the business because I don't think you would make that much

money and quite a bit of effort.

But I wanted to do for you guys because you kind of come up with the idea.

I research different products now.

Do you publish your research?

Well, not for baby products yet.

I was actually thinking maybe to make like a baby book or ebook just with different recommendations.

You've seen on my pinned tweet on Twitter, I have my favorite products, random products.

So I have whatever favorite, I don't know what I got on there,

but I've got like 20 products I shared as my favorites on Twitter.

And you're underscore Jack Smith, that's your thing.

Let's talk about some of the other crazy things you're doing.

So you have a guy watching your baby on a baby camera in Pakistan or something like that.

What's going on?

So what are you doing with this baby sleep monitor thing?

Yeah, I mean, I kind of feel bad because, you know, when speaking to new parents or if someone

says like, are you having a baby?

Like people say like, oh, prepare to like never sleep again.

You're never going to be able to sleep.

I kind of don't say anything.

But inside I'm like, dude, I'm sleeping better now than I was before having a baby.

And that's due to setting up various things.

But one of those is that, I mean, you have to have a house big enough for this.

But basically we put my daughter a few doors down.

And so initially if she would wake up and cry in the night, we found that, you know,

she would wake up cry for like five minutes, then often go back to sleep.

So she only really needed help if she's crying like longer than that.

And I actually got the idea from Jonathan Swanson, who's the founder of FumTac.

And he called it like digital night, nanny.

I called it like deep Sentinel for babies.

I know Sam invested in deep Sentinel.

And basically what it's doing is having a virtual assistant I have in India.

And basically he just watches my baby cam all night.

And he basically has specific instructions like, okay, if the baby wakes up and starts crying,

you start a timer.

And if she just cries for like three minutes and goes back to sleep, don't do anything.

But if she cries for like more than seven minutes, then call me and wake me up.

And we have like, you know, I have a special phone for that.

And we have a backup phone in case that one broke or something.

So basically we only get woken up if our daughter is crying longer than seven minutes.

And then so now I would say only have to tend to her.

She's two and three months, two years, three months.

She now only wakes up maybe once every two months we have to go to.

Otherwise we don't have to do anything.

So that was one Jonathan Swanson came up with had been really good for me.

What does that assistant say that Indian person say?

Like when you're like, yeah, here's the job.

I mean, that's a pretty odd request.

Yeah.

Well, one of the guys actually it was, I'd been working with this guy as a virtual assistant.

And then he's like, oh, my brother's in India.

He speaks a little bit of English, but not perfect English.

He's looking for a job.

Do you have any tasks that I can give him?

And then so I was just like, all right, just do this.

So I think for him, pretty awesome job because he can be multi-tarred.

He can be doing whatever else.

I mean, the downside is that I don't know how they're working this,

but he actually doesn't take off a single day in the year.

He's working 365 days a year out.

So I guess he's having like Thanksgiving and Christmas

and the baby monitors on loudspeaker with his family.

I don't know.

So he doesn't take any time off.

Yeah, he's just not there, Jack.

He hasn't looked at the camera in months.

He's like, this baby's two years old.

He's going to, your baby's going to have some horrible separation anxiety.

I feel like a big crime for like 15, 30 minutes and like nothing ever happens.

Your baby's like his Twitch stream.

So what about some of these other things?

So you said, I don't think that universities will exist in 20 years

and don't plan to send my daughter to school, let alone college.

Okay, a bunch there.

Say more.

So what I'd read this book, somebody on Twitter had recommended it.

And it's called like, don't tell me I can't.

And it's written by this guy, a kid who was like 14.

And he, it's this trend at the moment, it's trending now,

but he's talking from his perspective that he was doing this

since three years old or something, how he was brought up,

that he was not homeschooled,

like homeschooling has been around a long time, right?

He was what they're calling unschooled.

And this is actually a trend at the moment.

And he described how it worked for him.

See how it worked for him?

It's like his family was super poor.

And also his dad was an army veteran, like injured in the army.

And so was in a wheelchair and stuff.

And so he was always kind of having to help out his dad and be self-sufficient.

And so, and the local school was like the worst in the country or something.

And they didn't want to send him there.

So initially they were like, all right, we'll just try homeschooling you.

And so he was homeschooled for like six to 12 months,

but he didn't go that well.

And one day his dad, he said,

normally they were more encouraging, but for whatever reason,

one day he just asked his dad, like, hey, dad, how do people,

how do people get rich?

And his parents were like really poor,

so maybe also touched on an insecurity.

His dad is just like, oh, why don't you just figure it out yourself?

You know, why don't you just watch some videos of Warren Buffett?

Because I don't know, we're not rich.

And then he did that.

He went and listened to loads of Warren Buffett stuff.

And it actually spiraled from there.

So unschooling is the concept that homeschooling is trying to replicate

the school curriculum, right?

Like math, science, and you still have to do the tests and all that.

Unschooling is there is no, there is no curriculum.

The kid just learns whatever they want to learn and whatever is useful.

So he was saying from around an age of like five to seven years old,

he was repairing their car and doing things like this.

And he'd grown up in a poor family, but he actually started his own business.

And by the time he was 13, he like parlayed it.

Like so initially he bought a tiny piece of land and got some animals on it

and like sell the produce in his local town and stuff.

Then he got, he built, he bought a super rundown house.

So I was falling apart and the seller, they'd built the house themselves.

And so they didn't want to sell it just for money.

But he's like, hey, look, I'll buy your shack that's falling down and I'm a kid

and I'm going to dedicate all my time to repairing it.

So it's restoring your legacy.

And so they really liked that and they sold it to him for cheap.

He repaired it and then flipped the house.

By the time he was 13, he had something like hundreds of acres of land he was managing.

And he said one time when he was about 12, he went out with some friends

and they were complaining about what they were learning at school.

They're like, oh, we had to learn the names of the planets in alphabetical order.

When the hell are we going to learn that?

You wouldn't need to use that in life, you know?

And they ask him, they're like, hey, Cole, what were you learning at the moment?

And he's like, oh yeah, well, I've just been looking into recently found

a kind of interesting how rich people generally have like a pass through LLC

and then a C Corp and then they can deduct this from their taxes on this.

And the other kids are like, what the fuck are you talking about?

Do you know that he got so not like crazy rich, but he got,

he was only 100 acres of land.

He actually was like loaning money to his parents.

He's like, they never asked me for money and I never asked them for stuff.

But like in tough times, like I loaned money to my parents.

I bought our car from them just to help them out, you know stuff like that.

And then for me, I was thinking back in school, like I learned piano.

In school, I had some piano lessons.

And then at some point had to do like gray, you had to do, you know,

playing chords and I had an exam and then it was just so shitty, you know,

it was not fun.

Like I don't want to learn how to play these chords and music theory and stuff

to pass the exam.

And I'm like, this sucks.

And then I'm just looking now, especially nowadays, kids learning piano,

they'll do it by just seeing what's their favorite song.

And they'll just learn to play the song.

And that's just really fun.

And I think that exams and stuff just ruin the fun and curiosity of learning skills.

And so for me, my daughter, I'm just like,

how can I ensure that she's just having fun for as long as possible?

And, and like this kid said that was unschooled.

He said like, he didn't learn traditional math.

But just whenever it seemed that he had a need to learn a skill,

obviously he would then learn it.

Like he's doing his taxes, so he has to learn math to do his taxes.

But it's not because they're like, oh, learn the Pythagoras theorem.

And you have no idea when you're going to use it.

He identified himself, I need to do my taxes.

So I need to figure out how to do math.

And I think that's just a philosophy that I subscribe to a lot.

I mean, he's wacky, obviously.

But when you look like Elon Musk, he created his own school for his kids.

Jeff Bezos created his own school for his kids.

I think he only has like seven kids.

I think that you don't have to be billionaire to take this approach.

Like billionaires seem to be thinking the school system is kind of fucked up.

You don't have to be a billionaire.

You could make it poor.

What are you going to do then?

So fast forward, she's six or eight years old.

What are you going to do?

Well, at the moment she goes to this thing, it's called, is that another trend?

It's called forest school.

It's actually nothing to do with school.

Basically, they just go to a forest, a bunch of kids, and you're just playing all day.

Like you have a fake mud kitchen and you are like picking oranges and turning it to orange juice

and you see a sheep and shit.

I'm planning to just create my own thing like that, but go into a bigger age.

I'm just like, let's just bring a bunch of kids.

Anyone in the local school thing can come around.

And also I feel like instead of teaching them like how to write and studying whatever,

I'm like, wouldn't it just be awesome?

Like whatever topic they can pick the topic, if I can suggest some,

wouldn't it be awesome if I just ping my buddy and be like, hey, Sam,

could you just teach the class a lesson on copywriting?

Or I kind of feel if they just ping someone on Twitter, if a 10-year-old kid pinged me,

like, hey, I underscore myself and I've decided I want to learn business,

would you mind doing a lecture to my class?

And we'll have my parents will bring us to you.

I would totally do it.

Yeah, so I'm kind of thinking stuff like that.

So I love this.

My sister actually runs a school like this called Nature Kids.

And basically they're just outside all day, just walk around, they go on trails.

If they find something, they like learn about it.

And if they want to go climb trees, they climb trees, whatever.

And it's basically has two things.

One, so she has a traditional school and she has this nature school.

And the nature school, the kids are like, by the end of the day,

the traditional school kids are like dead.

They have like no energy.

They're like ready to go home.

And they kind of like want to just watch YouTube and whatever.

And the nature kids, even though they've been out walking around all day outside,

they have like way more energy, which is like kind of counterintuitive.

That's the first thing I noticed.

The second thing is, yeah, like they know a bunch of things that are interesting to them

versus like in school, it's sort of like, you know, you're forced to learn something

that's not that interesting to you.

And you sort of begin to associate learning with boredom,

learning with sort of like, you know, being forced to do things versus on the other side,

you know, with self-driven, it's great.

And exams, right?

Yeah, the pressure of that.

Now, the, and I love the story you told about that guy, but my question would be,

I think, I think unschooling or sort of self-driven learning is awesome when you're driven.

So what happens if your kid is not trying to like,

you know, flip a house and learn about pastoralities?

Like, I guess like the fear I would have, and I think most people would have is

your kid doesn't really have any interest.

They kind of just want to, you know, sit around and do nothing or, you know, they're,

and so now you're unschooled, but you're not really having this kind of like awesome,

you know, self-driven curiosity.

Do you like, are you worried about that?

Or do you think like, no, I can create that or this situation will,

will mold a person to be more that way?

And also on the other side, what if she wants to be a doctor or a lawyer,

where you need, you need to learn how to write credentials.

Yeah, well, and you need credentials.

Yeah, I mean, great questions.

I mean, at first sight, I definitely agree with you, Sean, and it's one bit my wife has said,

like, you know, some kids are not like you, Jack wanting to,

I was trying to make money when I was really little and stuff,

and might not take that approach.

Things just have to see how it goes as we go along.

One other bit that was interesting is I visited a local Montessori school.

And so Montessori, studying a bit, we're learning these different things,

just my wife and I just have interest.

But one bit they had, which is awesome is exactly as you said, Sean, school finished,

and we went there at the end of the day.

So whenever school finishes 4pm or something,

actually, there was a bunch of kids still there, and they have a farm outside.

And the head teacher was giving us a tour, just because my wife made friends with them

with her.

And she was walking around speaking to the kids about what's going on in the farm,

but she was not telling them anything to do.

The kids were just giving her an update.

So she's like, oh, I see the rabbit cage is broken.

Like, what's going on with that?

And the kid was giving her like a detailed plan, like, oh, yeah, we've seen this broken,

and we've come up with a new roofing methods that we're going to implement, etc.

The kids run the farm.

And I was like, that's awesome.

What if you just have that, but just scrap the school part?

And this school was also quite religious.

So we're like, what if you just scrap the religion part as a whole?

Sam, about a bit, if she wants to be a doctor.

I mean, yeah, I guess one approach is that could just like go, yeah,

shed out of luck or take the total opposite approach and just hire loads of tutors and

be like, all right, if that's the approach you want to take, then okay,

I guess we're going to have to get you up to speed faster than other kids.

And I don't know how much you actually learned when you're five in school anyway.

So maybe just like, all right, you've got, if you want to do that,

you're going to have to be super smart and skip a bunch of grades then will help you do it.

I just, I love hearing your stories.

I mean, we could, we could do this all day.

I don't know.

What do you think, Sean?

How do you feel?

I've had a few times, Jack, where I just call Jack randomly and I just ask him about something and

I think you are kind of more of a one of one, at least in my life, of people who are very,

like, I don't know, independent minded is kind of like the best way I would put it.

Like, I think you choose to lead your life how you want.

I think that's aspiring.

I also think that you are extremely, like Sam said, sort of curious and like,

I think you're a great competitor when you need to compete in something,

but you're not constantly trying to compete when unasked for it.

And that's a very Silicon Valley trait.

People are trying to compete in times that are, what are you competing on?

Why are you trying to, you know, show that you're the smartest, you're the richest,

you're the most whatever.

It's an annoying trait and I think it's great that you don't have that.

So, you know, it's good to, good to talk to you as always.

Do you leave us with either a book or product recommendation?

One of Jack's finds that you think people should check out that you're passionate about,

something you think is awesome.

Well, the book that I mentioned, I guess the book that I talked about unscalling is like,

don't tell me that I can't.

And to, I guess, like, spoiler alert, like the kid, it really sucks because this kid was

building something amazing.

He actually drowned and died right after he wrote the book.

Kind of sucks.

But it's a really short book.

We should have listened to Life's Word on that one.

You should have told him not to go in there.

Sick way to end it.

Good job to end the pie view, moron.

So what's the name of it?

Don't tell me I can't.

And then it's just a short book you can read in two or three hours and challenges a lot of

assumptions you might have about education and stuff.

And so for me was like really inspiring seeing this book.

I'm looking at your products on your Twitter too, by the way.

Wait, Sean, did you just say you should have listened to the Life's Word?

The Life's Word was telling him, don't go in.

He's like, have you read my book?

I'm going in.

You're an asshole.

Jack, I'm looking at your Twitter list of products and you have this buckwheat pillow.

I think I bought one of these.

Are these like hard as a rock?

Aren't they just like super, super dense?

You can adjust how much buckwheat is in it.

And then I also have a pillow case that divides it into three sections.

So you can adjust it.

Why do people love these so much?

You need to get used to it a little bit.

But actually it cured my neck pain and I can't sleep on another pillow.

And I think, Sam, you said as well, some of your friends even ship the pillow to the hotel

before they arrive.

Nick Gray does.

Nick Gray is, have you heard of this?

Nick Gray, our buddy Nick Gray, literally every time he goes to a hotel,

he has his assistant send this pillow to the hotel.

And then he just leaves it there when he's done every single time.

And sometimes if he's going to stay at a place for more than I think like four days,

he ships them a mattress.

A mattress?

I swear to God.

You could eat if you Google Nick Gray.

Google Nick Gray pillow and he'll tell you the story.

And I have been to like whenever, if I'm in a city and he's visiting,

I've go to his hotel room and he always has that pillow.

He gets it shipped there every time.

How would you get rid of the mattress?

Well, I don't know what he does about the mattress.

But if you Google it, I think he has a blog post on it, but it's not just talk.

I've like, whenever he's staying somewhere, I'll go to his hotel and just hang out with him.

And the pillow is there every time.

This is so funny.

Wow.

So basically it's the best for neck pain.

A pillow normally is like, you know, it's a rectangle.

And then ideally you actually want your head to have less support than your neck

because otherwise you'll put your head at a weird angle, you know?

So with this, you can pull the buckwheat to one end.

And so it's giving a lot more support to your neck, whereas your head is a bit lower.

And so it allows you to kind of be laying completely flat.

And so you're not kind of cranking your neck and waking up with like neck pain the next day.

I was listening to this podcast of Derek Sivers on Tim Ferriss.

And Derek Sivers, he's an interesting guy.

And they were like, oh, you do this.

He has this one business, I think it's like web hosting or something like that.

And he was describing it.

And Tim was like, why did you decide to do this?

He goes, you know, sometimes I'll pick a project.

I'm paraphrasing here.

He's like, sometimes I'll pick a project because I think about who's my customer

and are those my kind of people?

And he goes, this is a business that lets you host your own personal website.

And I just realized that people who have their own personal website for no reason,

like just their own name.com, those are my kind of people.

And I was like, oh, that's really great to figure out your filter for like,

what's a simple heuristic where like, not everybody you like does this,

but everybody who does this, you kind of like.

And I think this like, try every product to try to find the best quality of life levers.

I think this might be one of those things because everybody who I've met that does this,

I like that person.

And you do this, Nick Gray does this, and it's kind of amazing.

Do you still have a sheet?

Are you still tracking everything?

I'm not really a spreadsheet.

No, I mean, for example, with the baby box I sent you, I just looked around my house at like,

like I just kind of anecdotally buy a bunch of stuff,

try them all out and then send back ones I don't like and just keep the best.

So I wrote it down for you.

So I don't have a fixed sheet.

As I said, maybe I might turn it into a baby book, but haven't yet.

He had this closet at one of his houses that I used to go to.

And it was like, again, a walk-in closet.

And it literally had, I bet you it had $30,000 worth of supplements in there.

Like it looked like a, it looked like a pharmacy.

It was like, any bottle you could imagine.

And I was like, does any of this do anything?

He was like, no, not really.

You can't really feel, he goes, except this one thing.

And he had like a Ziploc bag and it had like tar in it.

It looked like it was like, I was like, is this like heroin?

What the hell is this?

And he was like, yeah, it works.

Yeah.

It was like, he's like, this is like Himalayan something.

And if you just take a little dab of this, it gives you some, what was that?

It's called shillijat.

Haven't consistently found it repeatably amazing.

But yeah, Himalayan shillijat is like an extract from a volcano or some crap.

Dude, it was like, I swear to God, it looked like a pharmacy.

It consistently impresses anybody that you tell about it.

That's what it does.

He had like scales and it had like white powders on it.

I mean, it looks like a drug dealer.

And I was like, does any of this do anything?

I don't know how much money you spent on all that.

It was tens of thousands.

And you're like, this one thing is the only thing that like is amazing.

And it was like a Ziploc bag of just this like tar.

Amazing.

All right, Jack, we got to wrap it up.

This was fun.

Thanks for coming on.

We should do this again.

Thanks so much for having me.

Love the podcast.

Listen to it and don't listen to any other podcast, to be honest.

I just listened to it in the car.

So thanks again so much.

Thank you.

Machine-generated transcript that may contain inaccuracies.