Mamamia Out Loud: Harry & Meghan's 'Car Chase' Unpacked

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Mamma Mia Out Loud!

Hello and welcome to Mamma Mia Out Loud,

what women are talking about on Friday the 19th of May.

I'm Holly Wainwright.

I'm Maria Friedman and I'm Elfie Scott,

filling in for Jessie.

Get well soon, Jessie.

And on the show today,

we need to talk about Harry, Meghan and a paparazzi chase that may never have happened.

Plus, what's a subway t-shirt and why are a growing number of young women wearing them?

And is it possible to publicly change your mind in 2023?

Julia Gillard has some thoughts.

But first, a new job title has just dropped.

Smile Education Coaches.

They're a thing, apparently.

In Japan, the government only recently dropped their mask mandate.

It's been three years of wearing masks.

And at the same time, who the World Health Authority have declared that COVID is no longer a global emergency.

So COVID is officially over, friends.

Well, I know some people who would be really pissed off to hear that.

Including Jessie who's got COVID.

Including Jessie Stevens, yes.

Jessie, you're imagining it.

It's over.

Harden up.

The real emergency, though, now that it's no longer COVID,

is that a lot of Japanese people have apparently forgotten how to smile.

And so they are reaching out for smile education sessions.

Seriously?

Keiko Kawano is a coach with a smile education company.

And she was interviewed in a local Japanese paper this week.

And she said, with mask wearing, having become the norm,

people have had fewer opportunities to smile.

And more and more people have developed a complex about it.

Like people have lost the facial muscle of smiling.

I'm sorry to see how I'm smiling to see if my muscles are getting a workout.

I told over 4,000 people in her classes,

and she now has a business training certified smile specialist

to work all across Japan.

Actually, that makes sense because smiling is a mirroring behavior, right?

Like when you teach babies how to smile, really.

Like you smile at them, they smile at you.

And if we all got very used to no one knowing

what was happening on the lower half of our face,

we might have just forgotten the sort of instinct to,

I see you, Elphi, and I smile.

So you'll smile at me.

Kind of makes sense.

See, we didn't have to wear masks for three years in Australia,

but I found I never stopped finding it weird

when you'd be in a situation and they'd be a stranger

or maybe someone was serving you and you'd smile at them

and they wouldn't know.

Yeah, no mirroring.

Yeah, no mirroring.

You don't do the Tyra Banks' smizing at all.

I've started to do that, especially in airports.

You do like the smile with your eyes.

Just so people know that you're in a good mood.

I don't know.

Two of our officers could have been injured.

New York City is different from a small town somewhere.

You shouldn't be speeding anywhere,

but this is a densely populated city.

I don't think there's many of us who don't recall

how his mom died and it would be horrific

to lose an innocent bystander during a chase like this

and something to have happened to them as well.

So I think we have to be extremely responsible.

I would find it hard to believe that there was a two-hour

high-speed chase.

That would be finding it hard to believe,

but we will find out the exact duration of it.

But if it's a 10-minute chase,

it's extremely dangerous in New York City.

So on Tuesday night, local time, Harry and Meghan

were reportedly involved in a near-catastrophic car chase

at the hands of a ring of highly aggressive paparazzi.

At least that's according to an unnamed spokesperson

for the couple when the story broke on Wednesday.

This instantly made headlines around the world

alongside comparisons to Diana's death,

amid reports that a member of the couple's security team

said the episode, quote, could have been fatal.

So we have a grab here from Omad Skobi,

who is a royal reporter and trusted source

of the Duke and Duchess of Sussex.

This is the version of events he shared with American ABC News,

including his take on whether or not it was

actually a chase.

So it sort of turned into this very aggressive game

of cat and mouse with Harry and Meghan right at the middle of it.

And we saw, despite how great their security is,

and they do have one of the best teams in the business,

they weren't able to completely outsmart some of those photographers

that were desperate to capture some sort of exclusive moment.

ABC police sources telling us

they were escorting the couple when they left.

They say that photographers on bicycles were seen,

but according to authorities,

it was not the kind of wild caravan

described by Harry and Meghan's team.

What's your take on that?

Yeah, I think we hear the words chase,

and we assume that it's like it was some kind of fast

and a furious style sort of hot pursuit

through the streets of Manhattan.

Of course, as we know, it's a city that crawls very slowly

on those streets, but it didn't change the fact

that they were, at many times,

followed by sort of six, seven, eight different photographers,

different agencies, all desperate to capture

at least some sort of exclusive moment with the couple,

but also find out where they were staying.

I think it really shows the sort of extent

that photographers will go to to get that exclusive image,

despite whether the motorcade or the cars that they were in

were moving fast or slow.

It doesn't change the fact that this was an aggressive encounter

with a number of photographers on different modes of transport,

bikes, motorbikes, and cars.

This is really difficult because I'm team nobody in this.

I don't want to say I'm team paparazzi

because I think that the paparazzi industry is awful.

I also don't want to underplay the distress

that ever being followed in a car by paparazzi

or even just encountering paparazzi is

for someone who lost their mother like that.

And I think that when you have experienced trauma,

sometimes you can have an overblown response

to something that's not as consequential as it feels.

So I'm sure for Harry and for Megan,

it felt like it was potentially catastrophic

and he felt threatened and he was traumatized by it

and all of those things.

But when you look at the actual facts,

because of course I read it and went,

oh my goodness, that sounds terrible.

How can that happen?

As well as thinking, hang on,

you can't really have a two hour high speed chase

through Manhattan because Manhattan's not that big

and also there's a lot of traffic.

So what happened is that they were at this event,

a very public event where Megan received an award

for the Women of Vision presented by Gloria Steinem.

You might have seen images of her in a gold dress.

Because of this foundation,

so many of our youth have been instilled with self-worth

and limitless possibility no matter their race,

their gender, their class, sexual orientation,

disability or age.

The collective work of this foundation

in pursuit of a world where everyone,

truly everyone is valued.

It's just nothing short of awe-inspiring.

It was very public.

She gave a speech.

Everybody knew they were there.

They posed for photographs with her mother.

And then at around 10 to 10,

they left the theater to return to the Upper East Side

where they were staying.

We don't know where they were staying.

They say, I think they were staying with friends.

That's what law officials have said.

And this is all from the New York Times,

who is completely impartial in this situation, right?

Because the police have said something

and the couple have said something.

There were lots of paparazzi outside the event.

Of course, everyone knew she was going to be there.

It was public event.

They left in a big SUV,

a big private security vehicle with a police escort

that was provided by New York.

They were driven around then for about an hour

trying to shake the paparazzi

because they didn't want the paparazzi to follow them

and find out where they lived.

So I understand that.

But the fact that they drove around

and then they went to a police station

and say, we want these people to stop following us.

Then they decided to hail a taxi to try to have a decoy.

The taxi driver was a little bit bemused.

He then got stuck behind a garbage truck.

And so they were in traffic.

And then photographers came

and tried to take photos through the window,

which I understand.

Then he drove them back to the police station

and then they got back into their security vehicle,

their big SUV.

And then the police blocked off all the traffic in the area

and then provided them with another police escort

to get them to their place

and stopped paparazzi from following them.

So, Holly, what's going on?

Because to me, that is kind of what it is to be famous, right?

But I understand why Harry found it distressing,

but why all the releasing statements, et cetera?

Harry is increasingly coming across

like a person unhealthily obsessed, right?

If you've read his book and we have,

well, I can't vouch for Elfie.

She's probably got better things to do, but...

I have not read the book.

I'm so sorry.

I spent our January's deep, very deep in spare.

Elfie, it's an official outlawed text.

Oh, God.

Well, I won't see you here next week.

It is not a mystery that he hates, hates, hates, hates, hates

the paparazzi.

He also is absolutely furious

that his security got pulled by his family

because when they moved to LA

and they'd made the now famous Megxit decision

to pull out, he and Megan, and this is all

spelled out in the book from his mouth,

they really, really expected that their royal security

would continue.

They were told by Harry's then grandma

and then the king, no, we're not paying for that.

If you're not going to be working royals,

we're not going to pay for that.

And Harry, in his book, spelled out,

he and Meggs then sat down and did the maths

on what it would cost them

to have the kind of security that they needed.

Now, bear in mind that millionaires and billionaires

and Kardashians and all the things,

they have around the clock 24-7 security

with them all the time and they pay for it themselves, right?

So the fundamental question here that Harry is wrestling with

is kind of, I didn't choose this life.

It chose me.

This is a cost that I have to wear.

And he would argue, and he kind of has done, I think,

that this is one of the reasons why he needed

to make so much money from his book, from his deals,

from all the things, is because he has to pay

for he and Meggs to be safe.

Therefore, he is really invested in proving

that they need that.

He is currently suing, as well as many news organisations,

the UK Home Office in Britain

for refusing to provide him with security free of charge

or even that he could pay for privately

when he and Meghan go to Britain.

He's suing the Home Office about it.

So he has a massive dog in this fight.

It is so important to Harry to illustrate all the time

that this is life or death for him.

And in this situation, it seems like it's backfired.

And you could argue that they could just never do anything

right in the eyes of the media.

But also the fact of the cases you've said, Mia,

spelled out by players like The New York Times

who aren't being sued by the Sussexes

and don't have a dog in this fight,

suggests that their lives were not in danger,

that this was not a high-speed chase.

This was just an irritation of being famous people

going to a public event and people wanting to take pictures of you.

I also question what the hell do the paparazzi want pictures of?

I know they want to find out where they're staying,

but they've just posed for an hour at the party

where Meg's got her award.

So it seems to me that Harry and Meghan,

but I would say much more Harry than Meghan,

is very invested in making it clear how hunted,

how persecuted, and how unsafe they are at all times

because he wants to make the point

that his family threw him to the dogs.

Two other points of data that are worth noting.

One is that the royal family have an agreement after Diana,

and I think even prior,

the paparazzi will not photograph them.

That's why we don't see those kinds of photos

of Prince William, Princess Kate, the King.

We don't see them, we never have,

because there is an understanding,

particularly after what happened with Diana,

that that just won't happen.

So you have, by being a working royal,

you have a degree of protection that Harry wants,

and he wants his family and to pay for it,

but he doesn't want to be a working royal.

He wants to be able to earn money privately.

And the second data point that I would make

is that he's living a public life.

He's choosing to be a famous person, right?

So the part where he's a royal,

he can't do anything about that because he was born into it.

That's his complaint that because he was born into it,

he should be afforded protection all the time.

But the non-working royals who live private lives,

like Princess Anne's children, for example,

they are not at public events,

they are not celebrities, they don't write tell all books.

So they are not famous,

so they are not stalked by the paparazzi.

So it's like, I don't ever want to sound like

I'm defending the paparazzi because I'm not.

But then the third thing that I wanted to say,

and I noticed that there's only two,

but the fact that I'm at Scobie came out

at the end of that interview, which we didn't play,

but he said what is so distressing to the Duke of Sussex,

whatever he's called, Prince Harry,

is that he cannot believe that his father and his brother

have not rung to check that he is okay.

Now, the only person that knows that is Harry.

So he's then obviously said,

I want that out in the world,

that my brother and my dad didn't call me and it's not fair.

And my heart breaks a little bit like that

because he's like, he's still the little boy that lost his mom.

And it's like, even with everything I've done,

my dad and my brother didn't care that I nearly died,

but he didn't.

Like maybe he nearly got his photo taken.

I think he's a bit embarrassed.

And Elfie, I do want to hear what you think

because I know you're not as deep up to your eyeballs

in this as we are,

but I think they'll be embarrassed today

because I think that as much as he is invested

in making this point and you're so right, Mia,

that stuck out to me so much in saying

they didn't call to check on me.

And I'm like, why would they?

After everything you've put them through, why would they?

But also I think he'll be a bit embarrassed

because all those details about them going to the police,

then their security hailing a cab.

Now the professional security that the press

have been talking to in Britain said,

that's a terrible idea.

You would never do that.

If the security knew what they were doing,

they would never just, do you want a fare

to a random taxi driver?

Like it's not how it works.

So it's all a bit mortifying for them.

Elfie, what do you think?

Oh God.

Holly, you know that I am not a person

who is interested in the Royals.

I don't hate the Royals.

I nothing the Royals.

I feel literally nothing in my heart about them.

But what I will say about this,

like from the perspective of somebody who works

in the media and commentates on these kind of stories,

I think that when these sort of things happen,

you kind of have to fall on one side of the fence, right?

So there would be the side of the fence here

that gives credence to the story

who empathizes with Harry and Meghan,

who says, that's fair enough.

You felt violated.

You felt threatened.

And the other side of the fence seems to be these people

who are questioning that,

but then also involved in that circle of people,

those who are making fun of them,

who are posting videos online,

posting videos on TikTok,

laughing at what has happened.

And I just think that in general,

I like to take the more cautious empathetic approach

because I do feel like ultimately you want to fall

on the right side of history with these sort of things.

And if something does happen in the future,

if they do feel more threatened, if things escalate,

then the people who are laughing at them

are going to feel really shitty about that.

And so I would just prefer to say,

okay, you felt threatened.

And like Mia said,

there's a lot of trauma history involved there.

Fine.

Like if that's what it is, then that's what it is.

And I think that you just have to choose that.

I have to say that I felt very sorry for it.

It was interesting how immediately in that statement

and also across quite a lot of social media,

they're saying, don't look at the pictures.

You know, the pictures that were taken,

don't fuel the economy,

the paparazzi economy by looking at those pictures.

And that's an argument I make quite often

that if we're serious about these things,

don't look at the pictures.

But I did accidentally see one of these pictures, Elfie.

I have to admit of them in the back of the taxi.

I really feel sorry for Megan.

Like I really feel sorry for her because my firm belief

on this is, this is Harry's fight.

He is obsessed.

And he's obsessed with protecting her.

Mia's talked about this before.

He's obsessed with protecting her.

He's obsessed with the same thing not happening to his family,

which is so understandable.

But I almost feel like she's just sitting there like far out.

Could this all just die down?

And I feel like he's fueling it.

Now to...

Mama Mia have that!

Thank you for this truly special honor.

What's a subway shirt and why do they matter?

Well, young women in New York City are making content for TikTok

about the big oversized t-shirts they wear

over their going out clothes

to try and stop themselves from getting harassed on the subway.

That's why it's called a subway shirt.

New York City rule,

if you're wearing a cute outfit and taking the train,

don't forget your subway shirt.

A slightly more effective way of avoiding creepy stares on your commute

than doing nothing at all.

This shirt has become a TikTok phenomenon

that's grown to the point where girls are making content

about themselves like all getting to a party

and then taking off their big t-shirts

to show everybody their fit.

Do you remember that scene in that terrible second

or third Sex and the City movie

when they're in, I think, Dubai?

Oh, and they take off.

They go to that party and the women throw off their burkas

to show that they're wearing all these fancy designer clothes underneath.

Yes, I do.

So it's like that.

Unfortunately, I do remember that deeply.

The Sex and the City movies don't have to be part of the canon.

It's okay. We can ignore them.

That was bad.

So that sounds kind of cute,

the whole party reveal thing,

but really it's not.

The motivation behind the subway shirt

is about hoping that if you're not dressed up or showing skin,

you might not be cat-called or worse

when you're getting to where you're going.

Elfie, I have a suspicion that the subway shirt

is not just a New York City thing.

What have you heard about it?

Okay, can I just say for a start

when I actually Googled this,

it just came up with shirts for subway, the sandwich franchise.

And I was like, I love this.

I would definitely want one of those sandwich artists.

Yes, exactly. I fully respect them.

But I would say that this is not only not a New York City thing.

This is not a contemporary thing either.

I feel like everybody has been doing this for a very long time.

I remember when we were teenagers,

we used to head out in the tiny little slutty outfits,

but it always bring a big hoodie

so that when you're going home at 2 a.m.,

you feel relatively safer.

And I think it's worth pointing out

that that is obviously a misconception

that anybody who is dressed in a smaller outfit

or, you know, in a sluttier way...

We're using the term slutty in a...

In a positive way. I loved dressing slutty.

I think it's just, yeah, it's worth pointing out

that you're not any less susceptible

to being sexually harassed or sexually assaulted

or, you know, getting unwarranted attention

regardless of the outfit that you're wearing.

I think you're more likely to get catcalled

and street harassment

if you're wearing a revealing outfit.

I'm not saying that's right or fair,

but I think that all the language around this is so awful

because I'm going to say any outfit

that draws attention to your body,

but that's kind of what it is, right?

And this is really, really confronting

because there's a time in the life

of every mother of a teenage girl

where she slut-shames her daughter.

She doesn't mean to,

when she's the one that says,

you can't go out wearing that.

And of course, young women now

put it straight back on you and say,

stop slut-shaming me, mum, or stop body-shaming me, mum.

And I remember being really confronted about it

when it happened for the first time

with me and my daughter,

and I remember thinking about it afterwards

and had a conversation with her and I said,

look, I hate that this is a thing.

I hate that you are going to get harassed,

catcalled on the street

because of what you're wearing.

I'm not fighting for that not to be the case,

but while it is still the case,

I want to try and protect you

and I want to try and protect you from that experience.

Did you, at that point,

hand her an oversized hoodie?

She finally came to the understanding,

but I remember being that age myself

when you still think you can control the male gaze

because you are enjoying the attention

if you are a girl who likes attention from men.

I remember enjoying that attention.

It felt very grown up.

I liked the idea of being sexy,

but only to the people I wanted to be sexy to.

Yeah, I didn't enjoy the issue.

No, but I wanted to dress sexy,

but I thought that that would only mean

that the people I wanted to find me sexy would find me sexy.

But of course, very quickly, you realise,

ooh, dirty old men also.

And that's confusing.

But here's my issue with this

because my daughter is just beginning over the past year or so

to be out in the world wearing clothes without me present.

It's just a relatively recent phenomena.

And like all her friends, the clothes she wears

are often little crop tops and little shorts.

And now that it's called little crop tops and giant pants.

That's a cute outfit.

It is a cute outfit, right?

And I notice, of course, the male gaze on her

when we're walking through a shopping centre

or we're going to a place.

But I am trying so hard

not to say any of that stuff to her

because it's true, you can't control it.

But also, so what?

Let it happen.

I can't control what that man is thinking when he's looking at her.

I can't control it, right?

I can't police his thoughts.

Why should she be police in what she's wearing?

And my only exception to that,

like I remember saying to her, so quite recently,

she was sick and we went to the chemist to pick up a prescription.

We'd been in there for a minute and then she said,

I'm going to go and sit in the car.

And I was like, fine.

And when I got out there,

she said there was an old man in the queue

and I hadn't noticed.

But he was, in her words, like really leering at her

and I didn't notice.

And obviously I was going to go back in that fucking shop

and tear his head off, but he wasn't there anymore.

But like, unless it's scary and threatening,

it's none of my business, her business,

anybody's business, what people are thinking when they're looking at her.

Why should she be police for that?

Yes, I think that's a really good point.

But I think it's really hard to know where the line is

when you're talking about personal safety, right?

Because like attention is attention,

but you just never know when there is going to be somebody

who just like crosses that line,

regardless of what sort of thoughts they have in their head.

But as you've already said, predators are predators.

Yeah.

I mean, remember that campaign that was what I was wearing when

and it was all these women posting pictures of the clothes

they were wearing when they were assaulted.

And it was everything from a school uniform to a track suit,

to doctor's scrubs, to a burqa, to a bikini.

Like, it's not true.

And if we are policing girls in their clothes,

we're letting them believe it is true.

What about though, Elfie, the idea that we know

that what a woman wears has absolutely no bearing

to how much she's up for sex

or how much she wants to be looked at, right?

But men don't know that.

Not all men, of course,

but there are a lot of men who haven't got that memo yet.

And they still believe that if a girl is showing her cleavage

or wearing short shorts or revealing her body in any way,

then she is inviting, welcoming, open to that attention.

So what do we do about that?

That, like, we can live our lives as if the world is one way,

which we know it to be.

But what about if they didn't get the memo?

And what about the way the world actually is?

Don't you think it's changing?

Yeah.

And I would also say, like, those sort of men

are always going to dehumanise women, right?

If they think that that is a sexual advertisement,

what you are wearing,

then they are missing a part of their brains, basically.

They're missing a huge amount of empathy

and they can't read social cues.

And those people are always going to exist.

So I feel like it's kind of a moot point.

But Holly, explain this to me.

You said before, let it happen.

However men want to look at my daughter,

that's not up to me to place.

But then you said, when Matilda told you

that the guy was looking at her in the line at the cameras,

you said I was going to go back in there

and have a word to him.

Which is it?

Because those two things are different.

I think that leering at little girls is different

from a man like turning his head

to look at somebody walking past him, right?

I agree.

How do you distinguish between a leer and a stand?

Oh, come on.

Like, as if you don't know.

You know when somebody's invading personal space, right?

I think you're being deliberately combative on this

because everybody knows the difference

in somebody just looking at you

in a way that they're appreciating you

and looking at you in a way that is threatening.

I could write a thesis about that.

Like, women can tell the difference 99% of the time

of people who are safe and who aren't.

Not always, they think they can.

I don't know.

I don't agree with that.

But in terms of those kind of looks,

and so my problem is it being our problem.

Because you're saying,

well, you don't know whether that man's dangerous or not,

so we should all act as if all men are dangerous all the time.

Put your daughter in a bag.

That's what you're saying.

And I'm saying no.

Like, it doesn't have to be 100% one way

or 100% the other way.

I was in, have at it, everybody.

Can't call my daughter.

Say what you want to her.

I'm not saying that at all,

but I am saying it's not her responsibility

to control your thoughts.

But don't you think that it takes a little while to learn that?

Like, we all get used to it,

and we all then make our own decisions about it.

But when you are 11, 12, 13, 14,

the reason that that's when mothers are like,

you can't go out looking like that,

it's because they do still think of themselves as a little girl,

but we know the world is starting to look at them

as sexually available and sexually attractive.

Yeah, but you know when I started getting cat called

when I was like 13 years old,

I was walking home in my big, like,

Presbyterian girl school uniform.

School uniform girls get called out all the time.

That's when adult men started sticking their heads out of windows

and shouting at me.

How short was your skirt?

See, it doesn't have anything to do with what you're wearing.

Yeah, it really doesn't.

But I think as someone who catches public traffic,

like, and when I was young, I was always on a bus, right?

Always because that's how you got around.

And if you were dressed up for a night out

and it didn't necessarily have to be that you were showing skin,

but you know, when someone's dressed up

and they've got the hair done and they make up and they may be like,

people will look and they'll comment and they'll say things.

And I totally understand the feeling and the desire

to be invisible when you want to be invisible,

which is why I think the subway shirt is genius, right?

Because I don't think that girls should have to wear a subway shirt.

You know what I mean?

And that it's a responsible thing to do.

But I think that you often, when you're a young, visible woman,

wished that you were invisible.

It doesn't mean that you don't want to get dressed up

and go and dance with your friends and have a great time

and wear that awesome crop top, but you don't want to be so visible.

One of the lovely things about getting older, I think,

I actually genuinely think, is becoming less visible.

As you can walk down the street without feeling quite so seen all the time.

That's so interesting.

What about swimmers?

So now that a lot of young women are wearing the Brazilian cut at the back,

which is basically just kind of like a G string.

So the young women want to wear that because it's the fashion

and it's what most places sell and what all young women want to wear most.

What about that?

So, Elfie, do you wear those?

Yeah, of course I do.

But also my arse is so disproportionately large

that normal swimmers look like that on me anyway.

So, you're a Kardashian.

I guess that's another thing.

So you've got parents who you're in a family setting

and there's, you know, all kinds of people around.

Say you're at a family barbecue.

Yeah, but when your family is looking at you sexually, that's weird for them.

Yeah, but it's also just a lot for if you've got sons and daughters

and then your daughter is like in a G string basically in that kind of context.

Part of me is like, you go girl, wear what you want.

And the other part is also like, you know what?

No one has to see your bottom.

You're like on Christmas.

You know what I mean?

It's cover up.

Exactly.

I'm very torn about it.

Well, and I wrestle with it too because I think that particularly in that mothering context,

it's hard because there's still little girls to you, right?

I think ultimately I'm kind of trying to work out whether it's actually more damaging for me

to be constantly saying, put yourself away, put yourself away.

You're putting yourself at risk by dressing like that.

Then it is for me to just let her be and, you know,

trust that every man who she sees in the street is not going to attack her.

Yeah.

And ultimately, I think that like, you know, if you're trying to protect your daughter,

I mean, that's an incredibly noble cause,

but I think you're better suited doing that by educating her about different things like consent.

It's not about what she wears.

It's about all these other facets of her life as she's growing up.

If you want to make out loud part of your routine five days a week,

we release segments on Tuesdays and Thursdays just for Mamma Mia subscribers.

To get full access, follow the link in the show notes,

and a big thank you to all our current subscribers.

A word for our regular listeners.

We are not going to do best and worst this week.

In fact, we're going to retire best and worst at least for a while.

So usually on Fridays, we do a round up a best and worst of the week.

We always looking at out loud and deciding what we can shift, change, tweak,

make a better show for you all.

And we've decided that we've been doing a lot of talking about ourselves lately.

A little bit sick of ourselves.

And that instead we are going to do what I think and I hope we do best,

which is to talk about what you're all talking about.

If anyone would like ongoing updates about my dogs,

just, you know, drop into my DMs,

or I will post them in the Out Loudest Facebook group.

Former Prime Minister Julia Gillard has admitted she was wrong about same-sex marriage

and it sparked a conversation about changing your mind.

You may remember that during her Prime Minister ship,

Julia Gillard opposed same-sex marriage and she actually voted against

a private member's bill in 2012 that sought to legalize it,

which is so funny when you think about that now.

Because you know who else voted against it and continued to vote against it?

It's Peter Dutton, who is the leader of the opposition.

But isn't it funny to think that Julia Gillard was voting with Peter Dutton

on same-sex marriage in 2012?

And at the time, Julia Gillard and presumably Peter Dutton

said that she believed in the traditional meaning of the union,

that it was between a man and a woman.

But this week she told the ABC that she got it wrong.

Here's what she said.

It was a political issue because it was about what the parliament was prepared to do.

I mean, I think the sense of same-sex marriage,

marriage equality being a reform, the time of which it well and truly come,

didn't happen in an instant.

It happened over years.

And I was Prime Minister during that process.

And, you know, for me, I, as a feminist, had always wanted us to have a deeper debate

about the role of marriage.

I thought maybe this was the moment for the deeper debate.

I got that wrong.

You know, I got it incredibly wrong and very happy to say that.

And then as the campaign for change grew stronger and stronger,

and it became clear that the only debate to be had

was marriage equality, then I was very happy to support marriage equality.

Do you know who else opposed it? Barack Obama.

Really?

Yeah.

At first he also changed his mind.

And so did Kevin Rudd.

Wow.

So it's interesting.

Like, it would be easy to remember incorrectly that everybody was in favour of it,

except, you know, bigots and homophobes.

But that's not true.

A lot of really left-leaning people were also against it.

But interestingly, they are all politicians that I've mentioned.

So they all have admitted, well, certainly what Julia Gillard was just saying

is that politically she knew it couldn't get up.

There's a certain amount of self-interest and political opportunism

that you have to be realistic about what you can achieve.

And then of course, five years after she voted against it in 2017,

then liberal Prime Minister Malcolm Turnbull

oversaw the same-sex marriage plebiscite

and more than 60% of us voted in favour of marriage equality,

which was legalised a few months after that.

So it's got us thinking a little bit about changing your mind.

Elphi, is there anything big that you've changed your mind about?

And where do you think we stand now in 2023 about this idea of backing down

or flip-flopping?

Do you think we've still got room to change our minds about things?

I hope so. I love this.

I love when somebody can publicly admit that they were wrong

and they made a mistake and they've changed their mind.

I really do think that that shows a depth of personality

and thought that otherwise doesn't enter public debate.

Oh, God, when I think about the things that I've been wrong about,

I'm a dumbass.

I say stupid things all the time and I'm happy to admit that.

And I think that you've never said anything wrong in your life.

Nobody ever has.

But something that I think about now was when I was younger

and I was writing columns when I was 19 or 20.

And I used to write anti-women sentiment stuff where I didn't think

women or femininity was very cool.

What kind of thing?

Turning my nose up at girls who acted girly and things like that.

And I think that that was very much part of the sentiment of the time

that to be a woman wasn't a particularly cool thing

and you had to play up your masculinity.

But I've really turned my head on that now.

I don't believe that at all.

And I think it's very interesting when you work in the media

or if you're a public figure or anything like that,

there is very little room to be wrong about things.

And I really think that we have to be more accepting of the idea

that people have multifaceted personalities.

There's a lot going on in terms of thought processes.

And your opinion can change day to day.

So I appreciate Julia Gillard saying this

and I think that we should all own up to being wrong a little bit more.

Hull, do you think cancel culture has made that harder?

I think it definitely has

because one of the most favored weapons of cancel culture

is to go back and find all the things that you used to think

and that maybe you said publicly

and then serve them up as if you definitely still think them.

Now, sometimes that's true.

I think there are some things it's very hard to come back from.

We had an argument on Out Loud a while ago

after the then New South Wales Premier,

it was revealed, had worn a Nazi outfit to that 21st.

Do you remember?

Oh yeah, there are moral absolutes here.

And we argued because I said there is no world in which that is okay.

Like it wasn't okay when Dominic Perotet was 21

and it's not okay now.

But he says that he knows that it's not okay.

Like he would never do it now

and obviously want to give someone the benefit of the doubt

but it will always slightly color what I think about him.

Do you know what I mean?

Because I do think there are some things

that it's hard to come back from.

I don't think I'm going to challenge you on that.

I think you did at the time, my friend.

I was the one that said on behalf of Jewish people,

like forgive him, I'm joking obviously.

I can't say anything on behalf of anyone.

You waste your wand.

Yeah, exactly.

But my point is that if we believe that the more we learn,

the better about things.

So that people often will say, you know, learn better, do better.

You can't do better unless you know more, right?

So as we know more,

surely we can go back.

I mean, even Fred Nile,

who's famously the hardline Christian politician in New South Wales

who used to pray to God that it would rain on Mardi Gras.

And he was very, very anti-gay.

And I was looking at him.

He was interviewed recently, 20, 30 years later.

He's still in Parliament and he talks about he's got gay friends now

and he regrets that he did that.

He still would prefer things were between a man and a woman,

but even he has changed his mind.

And that's based on fundamental religious grounds.

I think about all the things that I've got wrong,

which as you say, Elphi,

the problem is that most people can change their minds

and there's no record of the opinion that they used to hold.

When you've been writing publicly or speaking publicly

and certainly when you've been writing online,

that she sticks.

A hundred percent.

And I know that, right?

So I know that on that criteria,

I should definitely be more forgiving of Dominic and his Nazi alphabets.

God, no.

But I do think there's a difference between

you didn't know so you used the wrong word,

you didn't know so you said something a bit ignorant.

I think there are still some shades of grey in the crimes here

because I think that you could argue about Fred Nile

that a lifetime committed to shaming gay people

and making gay people feel awful about themselves

and like they're going to hell and it's against God.

That's a pretty big deal.

That's not an Opsie.

Yeah, that's not the spirit.

I agree.

And so I don't...

I'm just saying...

No, I know what you mean.

Do we accept that he's changed his mind

or do we just say too late?

I can't accept that he's changed his mind

but I don't think it absolves him.

No.

I agree.

I think that there is a complete difference between being wrong

about something and espousing hate

and dehumanizing people and ostracizing people.

It's a completely different kettle of fish

and that's why I think the Dominic Parrot thing is so interesting

because it kind of falls in between, right?

It's a mistake that's very hateful.

In general, I 100% agree with Elfie

that I think that it's a sign of real maturity and emotional intelligence

to be able to say, I was wrong and I'm sorry,

which is what she has said in this situation

and you're absolutely right me,

that there are political motivations then and now

but it's a big thing to say

and there are lots of people, particularly people with big egos

who are in powerful positions who can never say those words.

I'm thinking about a lot of men perhaps

but who can never say, I was wrong, I'm sorry

and really mean it

and I think it's hard because I was thinking about me

and I was remembering that I voted for Mark Latham

to be the Prime Minister.

Everybody was duped though.

I think about that all the time though

because the thing is, is that we all know

that when politicians are trying to get elected for something

they'll put their best face forward.

We all know that but Mark Latham has become,

for anyone who doesn't know, he was the leader of the Labour Party

at a time that Labour Party were challenging

John Howard in an election

and I think it was the first federal election

I was allowed to vote in because I'd just become a citizen

and like I was even quite enthusiastic about him

and the thing is, is that since then

he has revealed himself to not just not be a good dude

but to actually be a really abhorrent person

with a lot of very awful views about a lot of things

and he's clearly a misogynist, he's clearly a homophobe

and it alarms me to think

that so many of us were so hoodwinked by that

and it makes me think, I know it's different to

have been to change your beliefs

but I think that I was wrong though

to think that he was a great guy at that time

but it doesn't ring true that you've got more information

since then and you haven't changed your philosophical

because you didn't vote for him on a philosophical basis

like it wasn't like a, I believe

that men and women shouldn't be paid the same

and then if you, you know what I mean, it's like

you thought he was a good guy because of what

the evidence you had in front of you

and then you learned that he was not.

Ironically, that was the first election I didn't vote Labour.

So you're on the right side of history

but yeah, no, you are right.

It's not the same as fundamentally changing your views

but it just kind of reminds me often that

I don't know, you can be very certain of things

and then all kinds of things, you can be very certain

of things that you would take that idea to the bank

and then you, what I've learned as I've gotten older

is certainty is very dangerous.

And there's a part of me that agrees with Gillard

on the marriage thing.

Of course, not on the not marriage equality thing

but I'm a feminist who isn't married

and I have some philosophical issues with marriage

but I think it's big of her to say basically

I was in a bubble, a feminist bubble in a way

who believed that was more important.

I don't think that's what she was saying.

I think that that informs her view of marriage overall

and that is kind of a feminist spin on it

but the reason, and she admitted this,

the reason she voted against it was because it wasn't

politically viable for her to vote in favour of something

even though she believed it fundamentally

because she said that they were not the views

that I personally held.

Out louders, tell us what you've changed your mind about.

We want to know.

You know, I'm characterised by my family

as strong opinions loosely held.

Which could be the name of this podcast to be honest.

Maybe that's her new tagline.

Mia, you have a recommendation for us before we go.

I do.

If you just want something mindless to watch, that's funny.

I started watching a show called The Other Two on Benj.

Hey.

Would you be mad if I went somewhere anti-gay

for my honeymoon?

Hello, sweet sister.

Brooke's still killing it as a manager.

You represent Pat Dubek and Chase Dreams.

Also draped disasters with Miriam and you know.

Brookey, we have a lot of good programming.

Yes, I am proud to be a part of all these vital shows.

What we both do is nothing.

What we do is fucking nothing.

Don't you want acting to be more?

I'd love to not just act, but also to make a difference.

So, I want to be Gay Albert Einstein and win an Oscar.

Elfie, I believe you've been watching this as well.

I love it so much.

I've never heard of it.

I just discovered it.

I can't remember how.

It's kind of in the vibe of 30 Rock or The Incredible Kimmy

Schmidt.

It's like it's a comedy.

So, it's these two adult children that are living in New York.

One wants to be an actor.

The other one used to be a dancer and just kind of doesn't know

what she is going to do next.

And their younger brother, who's only 13.

They're both in their late 20s.

Their younger brother, who's like 13, has just become

like a Justin Bieber-like sensation with a song

I want to marry you at recess.

Oh, my God.

That sounds so good.

It's so good.

Oh, my God.

The comedy writing on this show is just incredible.

It is so ridiculously joke-dense.

It's very much like a 30 Rock.

Yeah.

Highly recommend.

No coincidence, because Lorne Michaels, who's the

executive producer of Saturday Night Live and 30 Rock,

is the executive producer of this show.

So, it feels very familiar if you like those kind of

Saturday Night Live star comedies.

And Molly Shannon, who last made an appearance as the

mother-in-law in the first season of White Lotus.

She plays the mother in this.

And she's another Saturday Night Live alum.

It's just easy.

There's three seasons to watch.

I'm kind of halfway through season one.

The manager character, who's called Skeeter.

It's a take-off of Scooter Braun, who was the manager

of Justin Bieber when he was coming up.

And it's just really, really, really funny.

So, the other two on binge.

If you're looking for something else to listen to

on yesterday's subscriber segment, funnily enough,

why I wish that I cared less about work.

And we debated whether not caring about your job

is actually free to mom misery.

Have a listen.

There's a link in your show notes.

You can listen right now if you're a subscriber.

And if you aren't, please become one.

Thank you for listening to Mom and Me Out Loud.

Thank you, Elfie Scott, for filling in for Jesse Stevens.

You've been amazing.

Thank you.

This episode was produced by Emika Lesby

with Assistant Production from Susanna Macon

and Audio Production by Leah Porges.

Bye.

Shout out to any Mamma Mia subscribers listening.

If you love the show and want to support us as well,

subscribing to Mamma Mia is the very best way to do so.

There is a link in the episode description.

Machine-generated transcript that may contain inaccuracies.