Between Two Beers Podcast: Fletch and Vaughan: 19 years at the top of Kiwi radio

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On this episode of Between Two Beers, we talk to Carl Fletcher and Vaughn Smith.

No one is Fletcher and Vaughn, the duo are radio royalty in New Zealand and host one of the

country's most popular breakfast radio shows on ZM, which is also repurposed as a podcast

and downloaded nearly 500,000 times each month.

In this episode, we talk about their 19-year journey of working together and how they keep

things fresh, their start at the edge and how Vaughn won his job through a competition,

their controversial cross-company move from the drive show on the edge to breakfast radio on ZM,

the shift away from stunt-based radio, Vaughn's parenting journey and how he decides how much

to share, Haley Sproul, commercializing a friendship and so much more.

Fletcher and Vaughn sit at the top of the radio pyramid in New Zealand and it was so

cool to share their journey. Their chat is effortless and interesting and they just emit

good vibes at all times. This was a really fun episode that I know you're going to enjoy.

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from the export beer garden studio. Enjoy!

Fletcher and Vaughn, welcome to Between 2 Bears.

Great to be here. Thank you very much. We're very excited to have you on. Our first

foursome since Jono and Ben which I thought went quite well.

Turns out there's quite a market for sort of 40-year-old friends who love a good chat.

Right, yeah. This is my first foursome since Jono and Ben as well.

I've had a couple since.

I've had a couple of you, Judy Dawn.

I know.

Oh, damn.

Yeah, sorry.

Yeah, without you as well.

Yeah.

I love that you've classed yourself in the 40 category, Steve. It was your birthday this

week and you are only 37.

I didn't want to clog it up. 38 actually.

Oh, sorry.

48.

40-ish.

Yeah.

You know, the beard has a certain…

It's been a long 38.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm feeling that, feeling that.

Three seem to be four children. We'll do that till, man.

Oh, four children?

Yeah.

Oh, we're moving into minivan territory.

Yeah, he's in a hurt locker.

Sliding doors.

What are we, would it all really?

We haven't bought yet.

So we're still…

Care Sportage?

We're looking at a…

It's Highlander, isn't it?

Yeah, yeah, not a sliding door.

Oh, right, okay.

Fletcher, I'm in your camp though as well. Like, I'm…

Kid Chat, I've got…

I've got so much and then I'm kind of, I'm out.

I have a bicycle. No room for anyone.

You want to know those little wagons, isn't it?

Yeah.

For my cats.

You always see people telling their kids in those wagons,

and you're like, you don't really, really value that kid too much.

No, no, especially the ones that the kid sits at the front of the bike.

Oh, yeah, yeah.

And like, so the kid would take the impact first.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I'm like, that's not good.

Daring to…

It's like a kid airbag.

Yeah.

Yeah, not cool.

Right, not many people know this,

but the main reason we started this pod was to hype up Hamilton.

And so every just we have on has some sort of tenuous link to the Tron.

We ask them if they'll be a ambassador with us.

Yeah.

And I'm looking at you, Vaughn,

because we've put together a ambassador CV.

Yes.

That we would like to read out and then see if you're willing to…

Actually, Shay, what is a ambassador?

Just someone who's proud to represent the great city of Hamilton,

doesn't shit on it once they leave it.

No.

Just an advocate, really.

Yeah, yeah, big advocate.

Awesome.

Love it.

Okay, so some of these are a little bit more tenuous than others.

Born and raised in the Waikato in Lawrenceville,

which is close to Hamilton.

Yes.

And your parents are currently in the Waikato.

Correct.

I imagine you sort of go near Hamilton quite a lot.

We do, yeah, because my wife's mom and her stepdad are in Raglan.

Yes.

So we kind of fork Hamilton.

You can't say that if you're a little bit…

No, no, no, no, no.

You can't say that if you're a ambassador.

We circumnavigate.

We go around Hamilton.

Yeah.

But then if we're going from one to the other, we go through Hamilton.

There you go.

And that's us.

Okay, so they're progressively going to get better and worked at the Generator in Hamilton.

Correct.

Yes, that was my first radio job.

I saw you walking down the street doing some promo stuff with those big sideburns for Generator.

Generator, yes.

Yeah, it was wild.

It was a wild time.

Yeah.

It was a wild time.

It was a great time.

Yeah.

And here's our main piece.

Met your wife, Shadei, at the Outback.

That is correct.

Which?

The first time we met was at the Outback.

Was she an export gold girl?

She was an export gold girl.

I believe she was an export gold girl.

Wow.

Unbelievable scene.

Put that out.

False circle.

Unbelievable scene.

False circle.

Can I just share a little?

I had a big crush on her as well.

Because I, yeah, yeah.

And that's okay.

That's okay.

That's okay.

That's okay.

That's a roll.

That's nice to know.

I mean, Vaughn won.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Well, well, John, John wouldn't ever let me anywhere near her.

She was just a name and he was head boy at Boy's High.

Right, and a brother John.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And I'm the same year.

Oh, really?

There you go.

Okay, yeah.

I mean, I'm looking at the size of you and the size of John.

I can't believe you were ever physically intimidated by him.

Well, yeah, I don't know how that works.

He's a very delicate.

Yeah, I think it was a school hierarchy.

Head boy, you've got to respect that authority.

Traditional boy school.

How did this school work?

He won the sports award and he's the most uncoordinated person I know.

Definitely didn't win the sports award.

He sold you false information.

He showed me the sports award.

He had the badge and the thing and there was a photo and his mum's like,

yeah, he won a sports award.

I was like, what sports?

No, he was the theatre guy.

He was the lead in every production.

Not a sport to be had in that body.

I swear.

Okay, but again, absolutely alpha duty.

Yeah, yeah, he did.

For song and dance.

Yeah, he did.

Totally, yeah.

So that's the extent of it.

Anyway, hand bested?

Yeah, absolutely hand bested.

I love Hamilton.

Brilliant.

They need to make better use of the river.

What a beautiful, flows.

Yeah, turn Hamilton around and face the river.

I've always thought that.

We've always had that campaign.

Fantastic.

Great to have you on board.

Carl, you were born in the foothills of Taranaki,

but any links to Hamilton?

Ten years or otherwise.

No, again, I tried to.

We avoided it when traveling from New Plymouth to Auckland.

We'd go the back road.

Out of the Honga.

Out of the Honga.

Butterfara.

Back on.

Yep, Narawhia.

And then you actually successfully avoided Hamilton.

Yeah.

Yeah, so no.

Ouch.

They're a nacky.

I'm a nacky bass, though, really.

It's still Chief's country, though.

So we can sort of claim that now.

Yeah.

It wasn't originally, though.

No, it was Hurricane.

Yeah, it was.

Yeah.

And then we bombed them off.

Well, brought them in.

Bombed off Counties Monaco.

Yeah.

I know they're still in.

So the beauty of this podcast is the guests we have often link up

with other guests.

And last week we had a very memorable episode with Morgan,

the somatic sexologist.

And she has written in to paint a little bit of a picture

of Fletch for our audience.

I'm just going to read what she wrote.

Here we go.

That rules us.

Good luck.

She knows everything.

No, it's actually really wholesome.

I love that.

She says, I've traveled all over the world with Carl.

He's been my fake boyfriend since I was 16,

going with me to get a morning after pill.

That's right.

Third wheeled on dates in Mexico and Cuba to keep me safe.

And would only leave once I felt completely safe with the date.

He makes me check my tire pressures

and organize the guy to come and take tints off my car windows

because I was too scared to organize myself.

He'll drag me into Repco to get coolant.

He's the fastest walker in the world

and is so annoying and pisses people off when he overtakes them.

He loves Mount Taranaki and has climbed it so many times.

He's so bougie though.

He once cut it up a cask of red wine, cinnamon sticks

and orange and cloves.

And in the hut, he made mulled wine, much to the tourist's disbelief.

He doesn't show too much emotion,

but he says the sweetest things to his pussy.

He even called him darling and put on a high voice.

He struggles to keep houseplants alive.

Carl doesn't really want to get old.

He asked if I'll push him off a cliff if he's in a wheelchair

or start losing his mind.

Yeah, yeah.

There would be a vomit agree with all of that, wouldn't you?

Yeah, very much so.

Yeah, is that a fair representation?

Yeah, I'd say so.

Well, I think it was...

We made mulled wine in a hut first, didn't we?

We did, yeah, yeah, yeah.

We took a three-letter goon up.

To Crosby's hut?

Yeah, Crosby's hut.

On the Coromandel Peninsula.

And we cut it in our own pot.

Yeah, honey.

All the star anise.

Yes.

All the...

I can't make out the name of the star anise.

You need a lot of hurt.

What does it...

Spices.

Spices, you know, a lot of spices for mulled wine.

Yeah.

You know, that will tie the spices.

I can see that.

Yeah.

And then you nearly burned down the dock hut.

We did nearly burned down the dock hut.

Mulled wine in it.

Did you spill boiling water all over that hut as well?

And there were some tourists staying sleeping on the floor?

Not you, Vaughan.

I'm looking directly at you, Fletch.

Oh, that...

No, that's another hut I was saying.

And the handle broke on my pot.

And I was carrying water in it.

Yeah, spilled all over the floor, which is slightly embarrassing.

I feel like that paints a really nice, wholesome picture.

But she only had one thing to say about Vaughan,

and it was Vaughan shares his birthday

with another radio royal who he loves.

And he would be far more relaxed and fun

if he just used the prostate massager.

If he just used the prostate massager,

I gave him and stopped denying his true desires.

Yeah.

So there's only one key question to come out of that.

Who's the radio royal?

Who lordship Paul and Gillespie?

Ah.

Yeah, well, Paul.

February 20th, yeah.

We'll leave the prostate stuff alone.

Yeah.

Which you shouldn't do according to Morgan.

I shouldn't or should.

You shouldn't leave the prostate alone.

You shouldn't.

Yeah.

Oh, no, no, no.

Yeah, she's, yeah.

I'm firmly on board.

Firmly on board.

If I'm, yes, she got me very peculiar shaped.

What is it?

A vibrator?

Yeah, but it was kind of like a bent finger.

Yeah, it was like a bent little finger.

Yeah, yeah.

Has it been, is it out of the box?

No, it's still in the box.

Oh, well, if you don't, it's got no use for it.

Flick it over.

After last week's episode, I'm all in.

Are you all in?

I'm all in.

She sold you on the train.

Oh, yeah.

Between hand bassids.

To be fair, I was always in that camp.

But, you know, yeah, there you go.

Okay.

Yeah.

She turned up with these cray vegs, which are a sex toy.

Have you opened yours yet?

The masturbation tool.

Well, I bought it at home and I talked to my wife.

I was like, oh, how'd the episode go?

Are you good?

The guest gave us a thing.

What is it?

Something just to help me.

Self-pleasure, which is okay for us to talk about.

Yeah.

But you haven't opened it.

Absolutely.

You're still going old school.

Not yet, not yet.

Well, how does a cray veg work?

It's like a creme egg.

But when they changed the recipe, it got all fucked.

Yeah.

It's grainy now.

It's good.

You're supposed to have smooth and sweet.

Just the right amount of sweetness.

It's so good.

It's a little pleasure dome that you would put your member in

with some lubricant to replicate what you're doing.

Wait.

Is there a string on that?

It's like a low-cost fleshlight.

Oh, okay.

You're not insane.

Yeah.

No, you're doing good, I think.

I think you crack the egg, you take the lube out,

which isn't spermacidal, because I asked that question,

pop the lube in, and then you just go to town.

On the egg?

In the egg.

In the egg, right, okay.

I'm pretty sure in the egg, so it's not on the chest.

Yeah.

I wasn't expecting this conversation to go here.

Yeah, it's interesting.

It's interesting.

Four lads can talk about an egg.

100 percent.

100 percent.

And we're here now.

We'll be right back after this short break.

Okay, we're going to get into the

early days soon.

But I sort of just wanted to reflect before then.

You had your 19-year working anniversary last week.

This will be a few weeks when we release it.

But do you ever take a moment, and I'm wondering if you do

every year you have an anniversary, to just reflect

on how far you've come?

Well, I forget every year, don't I?

Yeah.

I'm born at the end of the show.

This is the first year that you forgot, you forgot something?

You forgot something?

That's a negation of remember, didn't I?

That's most good partnerships do.

Yeah, yeah.

Someone's forgotten something.

But no, you remember this year.

No, it feels like it's been forever, but also it feels like

it's been a blink of an eye.

Yeah.

Like, it's crazy.

Like, it really struck me once a woman came out to me,

and she was like, I've been listening to you guys for ages.

And I was like, oh, thanks so much.

I never know what to say to people when they're like,

oh, I've been listening to you for years.

Good.

Thanks.

Thank you.

Please continue to do so, so I might pay my mortgage.

And she said, yes, he says, I remember when you got the job

with Fletch, I was pregnant with this young fellow.

And I looked at this adult man, and I was like,

fuck off.

Really?

Yeah, he was 17 at the time, but he was this big 12, 17-year-old.

And that kind of was a real visualization of it.

Yeah, man, that's awesome.

Yeah, it was a real eye-opening.

People were commenting on that price, weren't they?

Yeah.

Oh, god, I feel old now.

Yeah.

I was 10 when you...

I remember listening when I was 10, and now I'm 29.

It's like, ouch.

But that's an amazing part of the longevity,

is that people have gone with you through that full journey.

There would be listeners that would have listened to every show,

I imagine, over 19 years.

Like, they would know you so ultimately.

But yeah, it's change tips as well.

Like, thank god there weren't podcasts back in the day,

if there was audio.

Like, evidence.

You meant years of evidence.

As we would describe it, evidence.

Item A and the evidence floor.

Yeah, as much, because, yeah, you could say things in...

Well, you did say things in 2004,

but you certainly wouldn't say now.

Yeah.

And will it be 20th or 21st, the big celebration,

without wanting to forecast your future?

Well, that's because the 21st is the birthday, isn't it?

But anniversary, I think it's your 20th,

it's going to be the bigger.

Okay.

So yeah, next year, he's next day.

Definitely.

Yeah, and then you'll do a yardie the year after.

Yeah.

Yeah, 19 is like an Instagram post.

20 is up.

Yeah, big party.

Let's go do something.

Let's go do something.

Yeah, yeah, definitely.

Oh, that's exciting.

All right, so I want to sort of chart the story back

to the beginning.

So in the beginning, there was Carl,

and a quit your day competition.

And Vaughn, you were working at the generator at the time.

Yep.

And you entered the competition.

Can you reflect on what you remember from those very early days?

I remember it was, yeah, somebody said to enter the competition,

and I was like, I'll do that.

And then classic, like how old was I?

22 year old Hamilton only.

And I was like, yeah, I'll do it this weekend.

Did not do it that weekend.

Yeah, no, no, I'll do it.

I'll do it.

And just did it and then didn't and didn't and didn't.

And then somebody I know that worked at another radio station

up there said, how are you doing this?

And I said, I wasn't going to.

I just thought, you know, I've run out of time.

He's like, I'll flick it through to me and I'll take it down.

And then, yeah, that was how I entered.

Was it as easy as filling in a form?

No, no, it was like that classic old, how you got a radio job.

Yeah, sent them in a Skype tape of some of your best work,

which I remember was ringing the local cinema asking,

um, passion of the Christ was on.

And I was like, I already know how it ends.

Do I need to come and see the movie?

And like, what a fucking stupid thing.

Hello, um, cinema seven.

Hey, um, hey, hey, is he passionate of the crisis on this afternoon?

Yes, yes, it's on at 2.30 and then again at 5.30.

I was raised Catholic.

I kind of know how it ends.

Is there any like surprises and twists?

Is there any like post-credits sense?

And she was just like, what?

And I was like, oh, like, I know how the story ends.

And she's like, what, what, what do you mean?

I was like, well, he dies.

He comes back and then hangs around for a bit longer.

And then it sends to heaven.

And she's like, yeah, I haven't seen it myself.

That's good, that's really good.

Wow, that was that.

That wasn't that well done either.

It was like real stuttery and yeah, horrible.

But, um, yeah, sent that in and then got a call and I seem to recall

like a Russell Simmons type stunt as well on Victoria Street.

Russell Simmons.

No, part of that audition process.

Oh, like a jet, like a aerobics.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, there was a public aerobics.

That was when I got to the next part of it and had to do wacky radio things.

And, um, yeah, did a public aerobics display and, um,

river and river sports used to have the running thing around it.

Yes, I do.

I had to like convince people to race me in there and yeah, just a whole lot.

How are you capturing that?

Because this is pre cell phone camera days.

Yeah, no, there was no video.

Oh, go on.

It was literally just the only thing was a crackly ass phone line.

That was all.

There was no proof that it was happening.

But you actually did it.

Yeah.

Oh, amazing.

I'm only looking back now.

They had totally faked it.

Dedication.

I worked a radio.

I could have set up sound effects and everything.

And I absolutely rorted my way in.

That's really one of the job.

Yeah, must have.

What was your Carl side of it?

Cause this was a job to replace Mike Peru,

who ended up halfway through sort of backing out.

Peru, Peru.

Text for Peru, policy promises.

And then it was, was it essentially a competition to find your part?

Like, how did you feel about it?

Just as that was happening, um, Alex decided he was gonna eat,

pray, love and move to Australia or Thailand or something like that.

He was, I just, I just need to travel.

And I remember thinking, oh, you know, we've got a good thing going because I think we'd had

chat. We'd just got Chang on board. Yep. And so I'm doing some good stuff there. And yeah,

it was kind of a bit gutted. And then they kind of switched it because then Mike,

I think the job fell through that he was going to leave for flip side flip side. He was going to

leave. Yeah, he was leaving at a full time flip side. And then they were like, we're going to cancel

that or something like that. Is that what happened? Yeah, I think so. And then so he was he ended up

staying. And then, yeah, and he kind of just slipped into the drive job. And are you sitting there

going, who is this? Well, you saw the chops. Who is this? Yeah. Yeah. Was he still rocking them?

He rocks up in Glasson's jeans, cleared jeans and these chops. I led Zepp Lente shirt. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. I'm like, too much. I think everyone in the office is like, this guy does not fit the

demo. I remember people in the office like, we should do a makeover thing with them, you know,

where we get them a hair cut and like proper clothes. Yeah. Yeah. One of the prizes, it wasn't

a prize until like the last minute, one of the prizes was like a clothing voucher. Yeah. I was

like, oh, weird. That's been edited. Not thinking anything of it. And then like years later being

like, probably what was getting that they were getting out there. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you didn't

meet your wife looking like that. I did. Which is incredible. She saw a Grayland do-up. Yeah.

When she saw Grayland in the 1970s, it was like, I should buy a block of property for $10

and see what comes of it. Yeah. A good investment. Yeah. So like 19 years later, you guys have

obviously established this incredible friendship which works on there. But those early days, like

did it, did it go smoothly from the start? Do you remember what you thought about each other

in those initial months? I don't think, it didn't go bumpy, but it is, it is weird just to be forced

into a situation with someone. Yeah. It's an arranged marriage. It's an arranged marriage,

rather than you'll get a partnership, right? Totally. Yeah. Yeah. But they've done our star

signs, hadn't they? Yeah, they had them when we worked out. Were they compatible? I don't know.

I mean, those things don't lie. Yeah. And yeah, but it was never rocky. It was like, you're getting

to know something you've never met before in a kind of a high-pressure situation of make this

work or you won't have a job. Well, pretty lucky because I would hate to start a show now

with someone new and you've got all the feedback of social media and

instant responses. Like we had text messaging into the studio, only just. But when it costs

$0.20 per text, people aren't as free and easy as they are on the hero comments.

Probably really making some effort. Really giving as much abuse into 161 characters as they possibly

can. Fuck you guys. And this is why. So we were quite lucky that we had a lot of time to develop

years. I don't think you'd have that kind of time now, not on a network show. No,

after like all those years. I need to just be like, get rid of them. Yeah. This was sort of going

back to 2004, but it was like we spoke about quite stunt-based radio at the time. Very much so.

Jackass was the big, was it Jackass territory? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Did you remember that Icelandic

version of Jackass? Just as a little tangent to insert there, it was like these other weird

Icelandic guys and they used to do some fucking like. Yes. What was their name? I can't remember

now. But they all played Vikings. They did, obviously. Yeah. And there was a cross over like

Johnny Knoxville would appear on. Yeah. And they like jumped out of like big pine trees and stuff

like that at a producer at them. The Dudes. The Dudes. The Dudes is bad. The TV show. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Sorry, it just popped in my head. Karen Steeves. That is such shay areas. The

niches. Yeah, it's what I do. No, no, it's brilliant. But did you arrive at the stunt-based

stuff enjoying it? Like now your show is very conversational and you sort of moved past that.

I feel like quite quickly. Was that by design? It was, it's a lot, it's a lot of work. And I

don't know, it just feels like you're just doing the same thing over and over. Like there's so

many things you can do and everybody was doing it. Like everybody in radio was, well, in youth

targeted radio was doing extreme stunt stuff. And I just wore them, I guess. And as we got older,

the head just fell off Jesus over and over. Is that a sign?

Hey, who's what you said about the cation of the Christ? Yeah.

The head full up for those listening. It's by your feet.

It's by your feet. Yeah. Jesus. There's a statue of Jesus and the head has just fallen off.

Yeah, that is incredible. I think we just call it now. Yeah, well, we had a good run guys.

It's the end of the show. It's like 20th and 21st celebrations guys. Yeah, see you in hell.

Maybe we'll have it down there. It'll be the better place to party. I would say though,

we both hate stunt-y stuff so passionately. Yeah, it certainly wore them. And when did you make a

kind of active decision to move it to being more conversational? It's weird. We've kind of been

fought on it, like, it's okay that we are just trying to have the most entertaining

conversation every morning. And people were like, no, no, no, you've got to like,

when we first came to ZDM, they were very, the management team at the time were very much like

the biggest show in Australia is Kyle and Jackie Oh, and they love like controversy and they'll

have people on. And you know, it could be the most controversial figures, but they've got them on.

And I was just like, why, why? Like, that's not us. Yeah, like we just do just want to

have some lighthearted chat and drop a bunch of innuendo and, you know, to try to have fun

every morning, especially when you're getting up at four in the morning, if you're not, you know,

having creative control and it's been great, like the last and you can kind of see like

where it started really working for us ratings-wise, which I don't put too much

weight on, but I mean, it's how they make the money and everything and commercial radio.

It's tied into when we were allowed to just be ourselves and focus on what we do best, arguably.

It started to work and it's because we weren't putting any effort into being anybody we weren't,

which we never have been, but you know, there was always a little bit of a push that way, I think.

Yeah, I think certainly in the early days, it was like, what are you doing? And we had Chang

with us and it was like, send them out and do stuff to him. And what are you doing today?

Can I just talk about stuff? But that's also, I just don't think you could do what was

happening with Chang in 2003. I think it was something in 2005 or once, I was like, I don't know.

I remember once we were giving away tickets or we sent him to a clothing burn and he's quite a

small man. And I think we just said, get in, get in. And he was like, and he managed to squeeze

in even though it's like a kind of a V so that you can't get the clothes. And then he ended

up getting in there and he's like, guys, I can't get out. And I just remember hearing the fire

engine go past the studio. But it was all on air and it was all brilliant. And the boss, of course,

was like, this is great. He loved complaints. He didn't care at all. But yeah, that kind of stuff.

In the fire department. In New Zealand fires, there was a quite a different view on it. Did they

have to come and get the jewels of life to cut them in? They had to cut the lock off because

they couldn't get a hold of whoever had the power. You're a handy man. I feel like you could cut a

lock off. Well, I don't feel like you need the fire department to cut a lock. Well, now I probably

could have, you know, get down there with a, you know, a, a, a, a two-volt angle grinder and really

get into it. But at the time I was nine and I didn't have any power tools capable of it.

I feel like by just being authentic and having conversations, it speaks to longevity because

it's easier to just be, just turn up and be yourself rather than have these preprepared stunts.

And, but I'm also aware that a lot of planning goes into the show, like the conversations,

are they all like, I'm talking about the edge days now in the drive show, like how structured

was it? So it was a mess. It was so much fun. It was chaos. Drive, you played like two or three

songs in a row. So you'd top of the hour, you'd be like, all right, hey, I didn't even think when

you, what was happening at quarter past? No, you'd play three songs. And then while those three

songs are playing, Vaughn and I most of the time would be like, okay, what are we going to talk

about? Is that, is that what they call a three song sweep? A three song sweep. Oh, so good.

Beautiful. And then I think even if we did phone and topics, you'd do it three breaks. So you'd

be going to like 22 the hour. Yeah. And yeah, and we'd just make it up sometimes with 20 seconds

to go. Yeah. And I remember we said this to a radio store once and we never got invited.

You could just see the guy, was it Larry? Yeah, I think you could see Larry Somerville who,

Mori Femme, days was at the back of the class and you just saw his face just like,

we're not inviting these arseholes back. They're teaching the kids wrong things.

Teaching them terrible habits. But breakfast, you certainly cannot fly by the city of pants.

It's you have to, every break needs to be prepared. And the end of the drive days, we did have,

they started like, because we didn't have a producer when we started.

No. So we'd have to answer the phones, read, you know, sort through everything.

And then when do we get a producer? Maybe 2010. Yeah. So maybe for the last six years,

you two are doing everything. Yeah. And I think even, and by you two, Fletcher's doing everything.

Yeah. I doubt the 10. And if it was literally like someone on prize, I'd have to be like,

okay, so, okay, Dave, what's your last name? Oh my God. Thanks, Dave. And your postal address,

Dave. No, Dave, we don't send a pair of boxes, Dave. If you could just have me with an actual

physical address. Yep, that will be, yep, that will be fine, Dave. And if a mobile number,

yep. Yep. No, that'll do. Yep. And it was just like, that one, we're on in 30 seconds.

And I'll be like, there's two more people that need prizes. And so it was, yeah. So when the

producer came, it was a lot more like, palm that off. But your shows didn't really have,

I think breakfast shows might have had one producer if they were lucky. Yeah.

Who was often a news reader as well. Yeah. New hot guy. New hot guy. Yep. Mark's here.

Very good friend of mine now. Yeah, yeah, really one of the most legendary men in broadcasting

with the Patience of a Saint. They started to kind of take the show seriously. And then when

we got producers at planning and you'd have a prep grid and so you knew what every break was.

And yeah, and then it was a, yeah, it was a, it was a safety net more than a guideline in those days.

When you reflect on those nine years at the edge, like was it like,

how quickly did the snowball build? Like was it after what year one or year two where they

started to get a real attention and like ratings went up? I'd say later. Like, yeah, it was,

it was definitely towards the end, which, which, which was again, when we were kind of left to our

own devices. And yeah, it was later in the piece. There was, there was a couple of like,

there was one year, was it in the same year? We got Africa to number one in the charts.

Toto's Africa. And that was literally like an on the spot. We should do that. Literally,

the idea developed on air. And all the best things. Yeah, totally. Like fact of the day was

page of the day initially, when Facebook first started and people would start crazy Facebook

pages and everyone would be like, yeah, you're not my ladder. You're my step ladder. You're not

my real ladder. You're my step ladder. Funny, like page. And then it became something like weird,

Russian advertising bought three years later. Yeah, but like that was born in the moment.

And then that and then there was it was in 2012, because I remember it was like two weeks after

my first order was born. I was real tired. And I was like, I found this thing and it's this guy's

entire text conversation with this girl. It's amazing. Yeah, what crazy sounds like was what he

put loaded up as I acted it out. And we were like, it's eight minutes. It's so long, but we did it

live. Yeah, I read it to Fletcher. She's like, it's great. It's long. I was like, I don't know.

And the boss is like, it's eight minutes. It's too long. And I was like, I don't know,

it just feels right. And then yeah, we listen to the whole eight minutes again yesterday.

Yeah, it's great. Yeah, it's so good. It was but then again, would you do that nowadays?

I reckon it still plays. I think it still plays when I listen to it. It pops up on my Facebook

memories of when it was like going crazy. And I listened to it a couple of years ago and I was

like, Oh God, like now knowing, you know, what we know about mental health and everything. I was

like, is it everybody's pointing and laughing at the girl who's not been given a straight answer?

You know, what was it like from her side of things? I don't want to poo poo on our own bloody

best piece of audio that's ever viral online. But now I even I can listen to it and I'm like,

Oh man, I want to. But even attention spans now, like would people give it the attention now?

Well, yeah, I did. But maybe I'm cut from a different cloth.

That piece of audio that gave us listeners from all over the world.

Did it go and read it? Yeah, sound cloud as well.

You can still find it, by the way, listeners. Yeah, it's not sound cloud.

It's yeah, this is what, what is it? This is what crazy sounds like.

This is what crazy sounds like was the audio. Kevin, I'm still friends with Kevin on Facebook.

He goes married now. Oh, he's married. Is that the guy? Yeah. Wow. Yeah, we tracked him down

and talked to him and yeah, he was just like, Wow, okay. So you're able to track that the

cause it blew up internationally. You were able to hook the international listeners.

Well, we just started hearing from people like they'd message in.

Yeah. Well, and we had, we did have a podcast at that stage. It wasn't an every day

full show podcast. It was a secret show.

Is it a secret show? No. No, no. I don't think what's the secret show?

Well, it's a very secret show. It's so secret. I shouldn't have said that.

It was a different flesh and bone, must have been.

The first rule of secret show is you need to talk about secret show.

We'll cut that out. Yeah, cut that cut.

The Toto Africa thing, I really strongly remember. And I don't know. Obviously,

you already had a big audience at that point, but being able to mobilize an audience to do

something must have been quite a feeling of, Oh, wow. What else can we do?

It's crazy. It wasn't streaming. It was that people were paying $1.99 to download.

Yeah. Toto's Africa. And yeah, I think it started.

Which in those days was a lot of money.

A lot of money.

You had to listen to that thing a thousand times to get your values worth.

But I think it was because we were doing, after we started getting international listeners,

we were doing a podcast segment where we would read out messages from people.

Where are you listening in the world? And every time someone messaged from anywhere in Africa,

we'd play Toto Africa. It was like this thing. And then we were just like, oh,

wonder if this would chart. And then, yeah, that was just one of those things that stupidly

in the moment happened. And yeah, it kind of took off.

And they changed the rules as a result of it?

Yes, they did. They changed it because it was radio play and purchases. Now that could be

physical or digital. And digital was a massive part of it because everybody had Apple iTunes

at this stage. It was before Spotify and before Apple Music as it is now. So yeah,

people were just going, bye, bye, bye, bye. I was just going on credit cards and yeah,

and then afterwards they changed it.

They weren't happy.

Haven't they changed it?

Oh, they were not happy.

More, yeah, I can't remember what they...

Did you have any direct contact with them saying like...

The boss came in and he was like, it's all very well and good,

but you're really starting to fuck Rianza off. And I was like, I don't know who the fuck Rianza is,

but say hi to them.

Yeah, you're fucking off the very people that would buy thousands of their own artist records.

Just to rig the charts anyway. It's like, don't come at us like saying that.

Exactly. Yeah, I think a GM.

Bit rich.

It's supposed to be how easy it was to rig there.

This is it. And we also got the rules changed for radio awards too, didn't we? Do you remember

that? It's a couple of fine career moments.

Yeah.

Because the radio awards were like yet to enter.

It didn't specify on your entry was.

Yeah. So we went to the Fisher and Piper factory and was it taken any or something?

Yep.

And we got...

Out South somewhere.

You had to have three, four?

You had to have three, four.

Everything had to be submitted in what's triplicate plus another one.

Quadruplicate.

Quadruplicate.

Quadruplicate.

So it's what we are here.

Yeah, yeah, we're a quadruplicate.

And yeah, so we got four big fridge doors and made it like.

Magnets.

Those magnets.

And our entry was how what appearance fridge would look like a drawing of us and magneted on and then like.

Rating scraps.

And then just went and delivered four fridge doors to the radio awards people who were like.

Because it was all because we didn't want to enter, but they were.

The edge we were working was like, you have to enter.

And I was like, well, if I'm entering, I'm making an inconvenience for everybody.

And then after that, they were like, entries must be on an A4 piece of paper.

No bigger than an A4 piece of paper.

Okay.

It's pretty wild talking to radio hosts because normally you get guests on and you find like.

Two or three of these things to talk about through their career,

which are the highlight.

You've got just like hundreds of them.

You know, we could just continue going on.

It's weird and you forget about.

You forget about them until I completely forgot about that fridge door thing till you see the radio awards girls change.

I was like, that's right.

Yeah.

We'll be right back after this short break.

Okay.

So after nine years, you were number one drive show in the country on the edge

and Fletch gets a call from David Bryce about moving to ZN.

We used to call those to David.

You'd always want the David Bryce call.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So that's what you called it.

Can you tell us about that stage you were at?

And is it a case of the number comes up and you've saved the number?

I didn't know.

I didn't know the number.

And I was back home in New Plymouth and I just answered this number, which you'd never do now

because it'd probably be some spam bot thing.

Totally.

And I was like, hello.

And he's like, hello, it's David Bryce here.

And I was like, oh, fuck.

Here we go.

And I was like, hello.

And he was like, yes.

Some people want to meet with you, blah, blah, blah.

And I just say, okay, sure.

I'll get back to you and hung up.

And I called Vaughn and I said, you'd never guess who I've just heard from.

Yes.

I remember I was at home in the lounge with my wife.

We were watching something.

Fletcher's like, you'll never guess who I've heard from when I pause that.

And I was like, you're fucking kidding me.

And Charlotte is looking at me like, what, what, what?

I'm like, just wait for it.

Wait, I'll tell you the full story at the end.

You know what wives are like when you're like interested in a phone call?

She's like, pause it and tell me now.

We'll put it on speaker phone.

What is it?

Who is it?

Who is it?

This is not a speaker like on my station.

Begging your big laugh.

And being that there's like literally two places you can work in New Zealand,

until you have an offer and have leverage, that was it.

You wouldn't get a pay, you'd get a pay rise, but it would be like, here you go.

Yeah.

You're lucky to have a job.

One of our workmates signed up for KiwiSaver through the company.

And he got a handshake saying, congratulations on your two and a half percent pay rise.

And he came out and he's like, is it a pay rise?

He's like, no, that's illegal.

That's a government mandated savings program.

They can't say that your, their contribution to your KiwiSaver is your pay rise.

And there's like, ah, shit, I signed.

Oh, you're open next time.

Media works.

You're open next time.

Fuck, now.

But is it like, when you're in those situations at industry events and stuff like that,

is there like, you're coming out of a bathroom and someone from the opposition's coming in and,

oh, actually just want to have a conversation here about coming across?

Or was it all cloak and dagger and until you get that phone call?

Oh, the phone call was really unexpected.

Yeah.

Like, yeah, we weren't sitting there waiting for it or thinking, you know,

this year's the year that we, you know, get approached by the opposition.

It was really unexpected.

But I mean, that's only our experience.

I know some people seek it out.

And, you know, as bad as it is, because usually you're just trying to advance your career

and you're trying to see what else is out there for people.

But it was a real, because there's only two companies, if you went to the other one and said,

hey, like, oh, there are any opportunities coming up.

And if they were like, no, but then it got out to the company you were working at,

that you were actively over the road asking what they had.

It was real like.

You're back at the generator.

Yeah, yeah.

Should be back off to Hamilton.

See where you got down there.

But what you shouldn't be, because shit, we're just,

everybody's just trying to look after themselves.

You know, you gotta, it should almost be congratulated that you went to advance your own career.

Because was it not real?

I can't, my memory is fuzzy, but was it not really?

No.

People crossed floors?

No.

I remember like, as a teenager, the new, because we, so I grew up in New Plymouth,

where Energy FM was the first station that Steven Joyce started,

which went on to become Media Works and The Rock and all of those stations.

And so we always had like amazing shows.

I remember we had Rick and Katrina, who, yeah, great.

Ended up working with them over the years.

Great people.

And they ended up going to Christchurch to take over from Phil and Sy, Sy and Phil.

Wow.

Who went from ZM to Mori FM and stayed there forever.

And that was at the time, that was like massive,

because everybody just went with Sy and Phil.

Oh, yeah, yeah.

Those first heritage shows that changed, yeah, it's pretty massive.

And I think like, until we did that, there wasn't really anything like that.

There hadn't been any big changes, no.

Nothing that was as shocking.

People were just like, what the hell?

Because it was such a shock to everybody.

For those who don't know what we're talking about,

it's moving from drive radio to breakfast radio,

which is a big change to your lifestyles as well.

On a different, on a different company as well.

But was it, as soon as you had the call,

did you know you were going straight away?

Like, was it an obvious yes, or did it take a while to think about?

Um, we had to like, we, yeah, we met with them a few times,

because we wouldn't have gone to the ZM that was the ZM at the time.

And we wanted to know that it was.

Yeah, we just wanted some assurances that we weren't going to be

sold the dream and then get here.

And it was just going to be the same old, same old.

So yeah, there was meetings and some back and forth and stuff.

And I think they were kind of,

the management at the time kind of respected that,

that it wasn't just like, you show me the money motherfuckers.

It was like, no, no, we want to know that, you know,

there's a long-term plan for us.

And after two years, if it's taking a while to turn the ship around,

it's not going to be like chuck them overboard or anything like that.

So yeah.

And I think they quite, quite liked that we were,

you know, invested in the long-term game and to hear them out.

Sorry.

Are you driving those negotiations as a, as a peer?

Or have you got a third party involved that's helping you,

like, steer those chats?

Until then, we, yeah, you just do it yourself.

Yeah, we, at that time, we kind of also got an agent just for like legal, you know,

just to keep it all on the level and everything at that stage.

So yeah, prior to that, we hadn't been.

So yeah, she was involved in that, but we were, it was,

she was just like, you tell me what you want me to do.

And yeah, I think that management at the time appreciated that we were dealing with it

rather than completely handing it off to a third party and just saying that, you know,

hit that figure and we'll sign on a dotted line sort of thing.

So yeah, there was a whole lot of things.

We were like, well, you know, what about this and what about this and what about this

and what about that area and what's going to change here and there.

And so, yeah.

And it gets a bit complicated then because you make the decision, you sign the deal,

but then you go and garden it like you.

Dude, we had six months.

Six months.

No, not six months.

Gardening leave.

We had six months left at the edge after we said we were leaving and everything just got like,

we will walk into a room and it would just go quiet.

Yeah.

And not because there were people there and still are very good friends with them,

but everybody was told not to tell us anything about any plans.

We were told like, if it was happening on air, we were pretty much told the day it would be

happening.

Yeah.

You know, like like they thought we'd tell.

Yeah.

Like we were like, yeah.

But we actually did like espionage and spines.

You wouldn't have, the listener would never have known.

No, no, no, no.

They didn't.

Right.

They didn't.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And then yeah, we had three months off for gardening.

That was in your contract.

You had to do six months.

Like six months.

Well, we had our contracts left.

And then when you had to give notice with a month or two, right?

So.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And it wasn't public, right?

It was industry known, but or did you on air go, we're leaving at the end of the year?

At the end of the last week, they let us say.

Yeah.

We didn't really say anything because we didn't like,

it didn't really mean much to the listener at the time.

So we just carried on as per and then yeah, just in the lead up to leaving.

We're like, oh, at the end of the year, when we leave, we won't be coming back.

But we were also not allowed to say where we were going.

Right.

Like right up until the announcement, which was not until April.

People are like, you're going to Ho-Racky?

Ho-Racky?

Ho-Racky?

Like, oh, look, we don't know.

And then saying Ho-Racky listeners like, those better not be fucking coming here.

Everybody calm down.

But it was also, it was so good.

And I think it's healthy to step away from it for three months and be like,

holy shit, the world isn't ending.

Yeah.

The world goes on.

Like we're not surgeons.

We're not saving people's lives.

We're just having fun and hopefully brightening some people's days, which is cool.

And it's like an honor to be able to do it.

But at the same time, when we weren't doing it, the world didn't end.

Yeah. We didn't get invited to the Christmas parties, did we?

No.

In our last year.

Yeah.

A few months.

No.

You flick the lights off, didn't you, to close up for a year?

Yes.

Both jobs and radio have left.

I've had to turn the lights off on the way out.

It was Christmas Eve, eh?

We're like, what do we do with the smart card?

So this is Christmas.

Turn off the Christmas lights.

Turn off the lights.

Very trusting.

Yeah.

Very trusting.

You just smashed the place up.

So much shit.

Like I went down to the car.

The price of the carbon.

I literally just backed them up to the price.

And then just pushed them.

Yeah, good stuff.

Right stuff.

Looking back, was that an exciting period or a stressful period?

Like, do you remember?

Very stressful.

Stressful.

Initially.

You looked in Columbia for two months.

What do you mean?

Oh, I know.

I mean, when the deal, because there was a lot of stuff going down like in the face.

In Columbia.

In the face.

When the deal went sour, there was a lot of stuff going down.

I flee to Columbia.

Bang, bang, bang, bang, bang.

No, it's just stressful while the negotiations were happening.

And then once the deal was done, there was still ongoing.

I didn't find it stressful.

I don't know.

Maybe.

I can't remember it as being stressful.

A little, a medium stress.

At the moment, there could have been some stress involved.

But I was quite, it was like an exciting part.

Because we knew that we backed ourselves.

We weren't like, it was an imposter syndrome.

We were like, we can't do a breakfast show.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

You've spent nine years.

Yeah.

You got a bit of basic.

If anybody can get gardening leave, do it.

Oh my gosh.

It's so good.

I had six months once.

It was phenomenal.

Beautiful.

It wasn't gardening.

It was paid out to the end of the year.

Oh, yeah.

It was fantastic.

It's lovely.

Yeah.

Lovely, lovely.

Um, I forgot what I was going to say.

Shall we aim to be made redundant?

But the shift from drive to breakfast is indescribable.

We'll move on.

We'll move on to the next topic.

Young kids at the time, like that's a big changer.

It was, yeah.

I had a two-year-old and then six weeks after we started at ZM,

my second daughter was born.

So I think having a kid who wasn't a great sleeper

was good prep for breakfast radio because it was like,

oh, no, you don't sleep now.

Well, or you are awake now for the day.

There shall be no downtime.

So yeah, I think so.

But it is a massive lifestyle change, like drive,

I think, of those nine years.

How many sleepers I had where I could have been

up doing something productive or I was just like, no,

fuck that.

Snooze at nine and wake up at 11.

Like that's ridiculous.

Roll into work.

And then we always started working when we worked afternoons

with a lunch break.

We're the one and a half hour lunch break.

We make our lunch together.

Yeah, we just sit in the start room just talking

and people will be like, oh, god, yeah, good times.

But no, it is drastically changes.

Yeah, like I'm in bed at 8 o'clock, 8.15 most nights.

My dad's a dairy farmer and has been for as long as I can remember.

And he said, oh, I don't know how you do it.

And I was like, but you get up at the same time as me.

He's like, yeah, but I don't have to talk or think or anything.

I have to deal with cows and just push them in the right direction.

And I was like, oh, okay.

And he's like, oh, I don't know how you do it.

All right, talking at that time of the day.

I was like, oh, okay.

And it is kind of like mentally exhausting,

but you can fall into the trap of being like,

I think I'm mentally and physically exhausted.

So I'm going to have a three hour nap

and then spend all day doing nothing

and eating best ugly bagels for the first six months of breakfast

and putting on 18 kgs.

That happens to a lot of people that's not specific.

Yeah, it is wild dynamic when your day is essentially finished at 9.30.

I know you've got meetings and things after your show, right?

Like you've got a whole day to do things every day.

Yeah, rules, afternoons.

Yeah, it's so good.

But it is weird because unless you've done it, you don't understand.

Because I remember when we were at the edge and breakfast would be like

out the door at 9.30.

You'd be like, oh, look at them.

Yeah.

And you'd be like, it's been so easy.

And but yeah, it is exhausting.

Like because you're just mentally drained.

So you get off here at nine and you're just done.

Some days you decide that I'm done with people for today.

And yeah, the glory days of the afternoon three song sweep,

you know, you're talking after every song

and every quarter hour is going to be looked at differently.

So there's a lot more content and it's just endless.

Does that mean there's a lot more prep?

Like during the day before the next morning show?

Yes.

Yeah, that's when we do most of our prep for what's happening the next day as well.

I mean, we don't lock it in, but we'll send through a list of discussion points

or news items or, you know, ideas that we have the night before

and then and then piece it all in the next morning.

What time are you getting in rolling in these days?

Has it?

Yeah.

It's one of those ones, isn't it?

Gentleman's hours.

Haley and I are in it.

I just after five with the producers as well.

And then Vaughn rolls in anywhere between...

I live a long way away.

You live just by Haley and she manages to make it in half an hour before you.

She drives an Audi and I drive a Jimny.

I'm just saying there's a speed difference.

Okay.

Nah, yeah.

Not as early as I perhaps should, but...

But has it decreased over time?

Like when you first started you're in it like four o'clock and then now it's like...

Mine decreased by 10 minutes, I think.

I was like, I don't need to be...

I literally wake up and just chuck my clothes on and I'm out the door.

Right.

Yeah.

No, well, I've definitely got later.

But you hear about Breakfast Shows getting in at three and I'm like,

that's fucking midnight.

You know, like that's madness.

There was that phase you were going to the gym before...

True.

Yeah, I used to do that.

Work.

Is that still going?

No, God, no.

Secretly too.

He didn't tell us.

No.

He said always bag gyms.

He'd always said, I hate gyms.

Don't go to gyms.

And then he started getting muscine.

Everyone's like, how are you doing this?

I laid off the baggles.

Have you sort of invested in Issa Gym?

Yeah, before work.

And that was good, but it was...

The afternoon was a write-off.

So I was like getting myself up and I'd have all the energy at work

because it was just after the gym and...

But then afterwards, it was just a crash.

And I was just like, I was just a grumpy prick in the afternoons.

And I was just like, this is like not...

I'm not sleeping enough.

And...

You got shingles.

I didn't get shingles.

That did it for you.

Yeah, that laid off the before work gym sessions.

But yeah, it was just Rob and Peter to pay Paul.

You know, you were getting two hours extra in the morning,

but it was two hours that you were too grumpy to do anything productive

with your kids in the afternoon.

So trade off.

Sleep on the couch.

You've mentioned Haley there.

How important is that female voice in terms of your show?

Because you've had Megan and now you've got Haley.

So what balance does it...

A balance of putting words in your mouth, but what does that bring?

Oh, it brings a whole new element.

Yeah, it's just cool having other people in.

Because I mean, we probably know what each other are going to say before we say it.

We've worked here for so long and you can kind of be like,

I know if I say this, he's going to pick it up and slam it and it's going to be all good.

It's just good having a third person in.

Just another perspective and like the female perspective is needed because the stations

we've worked at have been female skewed.

And while we don't, you know, dolly up content for lack of a better term,

I'm going to get cancelled for that content.

I don't know, maybe.

We've said a lot worse.

And we're still going.

Yeah, come for us.

Um, yeah, I think it's just important to have that female perspective because we can

sometimes if you were specifically like, okay, now we've got to remember we're female skewed.

So if someone could come in a little with more of a female friendly angle,

it could come across condescending or disingenuous.

Yeah, it's good to have.

But you were able to sort of bring your team with you as well when you made the move, right?

Yeah.

Producer James and Megan came across.

So that was like a non-negotiable.

That would just open said who do you currently work with?

And we're like, we're established a working relationship with them.

We thought if we're getting up at four o'clock in the morning, new day part, way more content,

we're not going to know anyone else that's on that team outside of our team.

It would probably be best to bring in our team as one less hurdle to get over in it.

So yeah, it wasn't a non-negotiable, but they said who do you want to bring?

And they were just people were really happy with them.

We're working with at the time.

So yeah, I spoke to James and prep for this.

And I want to talk a little bit about you, Fletch, because in the background,

he yelled at him, didn't I yell at him?

He yelled at James a lot.

He said Fletch is the best anchor in radio hands down.

And I don't think people perhaps understand.

And I was just talking to someone out there in the radio game.

He's like, yeah, he's what they don't understand.

It's a little bit like we had Jack Tame talking about husking.

They don't realize that the level of expertise it takes him to nail to the second

what he's talking about and the little time breaks and work in the tools.

But the same has been said about you.

And maybe you could speak to it, Vaughn, because you'd have a closer idea.

Like the ability to just platform the show and work the tool.

I don't know that.

Oh, it's insane.

Yeah.

People in radio that I've talked to are like, does Fletch still pan him?

What panels like the pushing the buttons and fading the songs up and down?

And I'm like, yeah.

And they're just like, Jesus, it doesn't happen anymore.

Like no one doesn't does it panels their own show.

You know, a lot of people have panel ops.

But then Fletch would hate that because he's a control freak,

which is what makes him good at that.

But he also participates in the show at the level of someone who's not doing it.

Because he's been doing it for so long.

So yeah, it is.

There's nobody I'll say.

I'll say it.

I'll go on record.

I'm not going to comment.

I'm not going to receiving compliments.

I'll go on record and say, look at me.

I can't look at it.

Look at me in my eyes.

You're the best at it.

He is.

Yeah, but you're right.

There's no one else I don't think is as competent.

It is harder because like there'll be times when like, I think this week I set a stat

and I didn't hear because I was sorting something else.

Some audio or Googling and you said, I just said that.

Because sometimes I'll listen back to a segment.

I'll be like, I do not remember Vaughan saying that.

Because I listen to shows from like three weeks ago and I'm like, what?

I don't even say that.

Okay.

That must just be our age.

That's just, yeah, maybe that's a nice thing.

No, but yeah, you're just constantly thinking.

So there's a lot happening.

So yeah, it's not always perfect.

But yeah, I couldn't not panel.

I think a lot of people still panel like Kyle and Jackie are like Kyle panels.

Yeah.

Jace panels.

Okay.

There was a year, I'd say a year period where Fletch, we were doing a lot out.

Because that's another good thing about afternoons is you can broadcast from places

and people have the time to come down.

Like you could broadcast from a bar and so if we were doing a like the parties where I met

my wife, if you were going to a town to do something, you'd broadcast from there.

But I come down and grab some last-minute tickets or whatever.

Come down and see blah, blah, blah, blah, do whatever.

But when you're in the art, when you're on afternoons, it means that all you've got is a mic

and somebody else is taking care of it all at the station.

And we had a period of a year where we were doing a lot of outside broadcasts and Fletch

fucking tore through panel ops.

Like, there was one guy and he was, I was just, I was sitting there with my hands like

horse blinkers just saying, oh my god, oh my god, oh my god.

Fletch's like, you had three fucking souls, man.

But this guy just kept making the same mistake over and over and over.

The next gen system that we have, you press pause pending.

So when you're going to talk after the song, it will stop.

Whereas if that's not put on by you, the panel op, the song would just run into the next

thing, which would be a trailer or ads.

And yeah, he missed two breaks in a row.

And then he missed the third one.

And I was like, and there were three fucking songs every time.

And I just, I just, and then we lost it and we're like, hey, are you there?

Are you there?

Ring the station.

We're like, what's happened?

We can't hear him.

And they went in there.

He's gone.

And it was just like, and they found him out the back and he was like, it was too much.

It was too much.

It was too much.

And someone was like, what happened?

I forgot to press the pause button.

Oh, that's all right, mate.

Three times.

Oh, no, that's not okay.

Shouldn't have made that mistake three times.

Three strikes and one shift.

Wasn't that the same guy that went in for a job and he had another radio station?

Dude.

Boss said to him, what do you think it would bring to the station?

It was, I am, I'm not going to say the guy's name, but it was Brad King at the rock.

I won't say the guy was applying for the job.

Brad King, Brad King told us this story because this was after the panel op incident.

And he's like, you guys did this with this guy.

And we were like, yeah, yeah, yeah.

And he's like, are you going to fucking love this?

Brad King would be like, you're going to fucking love this.

And he came in for an interview and he said,

Oh, what do you think you would bring to the station?

And the guy's like, fuck.

Um, fuck, fuck.

Um, fuck.

Nah, fuck.

And he just got up and walked out.

And he just said something.

And then he left.

So he was the most basic question in the world.

Not cut out for the pressure cooker that is radio.

I would say that now.

Oh, God, it's so good.

You had one job to press pause like with a mouse.

It's not hard.

Yeah.

Not for everyone.

Now that next gen system, though, they can catch people out, huh, Steve?

We did a episode with David Nica, the boxer.

Two hour chat.

Amazing, in-depth, vulnerable.

And I was working the tools for the first time.

He's a good looking guy.

Yeah, he's a good looking guy.

He's a good looking man.

Yeah.

You'd hate to waste his time.

Are they all like that in Hamilton?

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Good spot.

Yeah.

Good spot.

Holy shit.

And that's it.

This guy gets it.

Anyway.

Didn't record a single second of it.

Oh, no.

Didn't record a single second.

I was gutted for about a week.

I couldn't let it go.

Oh.

He's actually never been back to the country since.

So yeah, there is a skill.

There is a skill to it.

I think we had our first show.

We recorded a few things and they didn't work,

but we always run a backup now.

So we've learned from that in a sec, too.

We've all made it.

We'll be right back after this short break.

The other thing James said, I sort of asked,

why, in his opinion, have you been so successful over the years?

And he said a number of things, but one of them

was that while other shows sort of made fun of people,

there was a butt of the joke you guys never did.

There was never a loser in the gags.

And it created this fun, happy vibe,

which has obviously been able to last through 19 years.

Do you think that's fair?

Was that deliberate?

It wasn't deliberate.

John Campbell was the first person that ever said it to me.

But you know what?

I love a bad new show.

Hey, it wasn't a great John Campbell.

It's not bad.

It's not bad.

It's not bad.

It's not bad.

It's marvelous.

You've got to say marvelous to get into it.

Marvelous.

Oh, it was awesome.

I was listening to the show.

And he said, you guys don't punch down.

And I was like, what?

And he's like, if you're making fun of people,

it's people in power or people who probably will never

give a fuck.

What do you think?

And I was like, oh, OK.

And he's like, is that a conscious decision?

I was like, no, it hadn't been.

I just, you don't punch down, do you?

And on the odd occasion where you're tired or whatever

or you accidentally do, it feels wrong.

You feel like a cracker.

Yeah, you're like, what a fucking asshole.

And then like, there's been various times where I've

like, we'll come back and then it's breaking up.

Just before I said this, and I didn't mean it to sound like that.

And if it came across like that, then, you know,

I can understand that that was really inappropriate,

but it certainly wasn't my intention.

And I think if you're vulnerable enough to be like,

I've made a mistake and I'm sorry.

And you don't punch down.

People don't feel they can punch back.

Like we've talked to some radio shows and they're like, oh,

what's your listener feedback like?

And I'm like, oh, it's all good.

Occasionally, they'll be, if you delve into something political,

you know, there'll always be that, you know,

the political bullshit retorts for the sake of it.

But I'm like, no, it's generally like really good and kind.

And, you know, if people don't have something nice to say,

they won't say anything at all.

And they're like, our audience is like, they are ready to go.

They're ready to go.

And I'm like, when you talk to them about it,

and it might not necessarily be them,

but it could be somebody else on the station that is toxic

or aggressive or punches down and just makes fun of anybody that

manages to get in, you know, in the line of sight.

And I'll be like, that's probably it.

Because they've heard one of the members of the flagship

show on your station doing it.

So they think that's the attitude of the station.

Yeah.

And then when that's pointed out to you,

you're kind of like, well, we'll do our best to not.

It's the same.

I guess how we're kind of trained our listeners over the years

to, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, they're just not.

Well, if they are, they don't share it with us.

You know, if that, yeah.

And we understand everybody has bad days and stuff.

But yeah, we've never really, you know,

you don't put negative stuff on ear and you tend not to get it,

you know, echoed back to you in various forms.

So yeah, it didn't start out as a conscious decision.

It was just what happened.

I remember, I remember reading an article with Hamish Nandi

back in the, it was always horrible to be like,

Hamish Nandi are doing this.

Oh, God.

Yeah.

How often was it compared?

In the 2010s, all the fucking time.

Late Norts and early 2010s all the time.

They've been like, Hamish Nandi have dropped a car

out of a skydiving plane in the desert on onto a target.

And you're like, they've got millions of dollars.

We've got like no show budget.

I remember talking, I talked to Andy Lee, came across and did

an episode of Have You Been Paying Attention.

And I talked to him about it.

I was like, you know, every like male duo on radio after you

guys took off were just told to copy you.

And he's like, yeah, I know.

And he's like, and I know you guys don't, but you hear about

New Zealanders dob in New Zealanders who copy Hamish Nandi.

I think they made a segment out of it.

Yeah, yeah, without ringing the stations or shows that were

like copying them.

And they were like, I mean, it's flattering because, you know,

imitation is the highest form of flattery, but he's like,

at the same time, it does get to the point where it's like,

that was ours.

Yeah.

And I was like, I totally get that.

But yeah, I remember them saying though, always about

punching up and knock down.

And they would, I remember one of them saying that they would

imagine being in front of that person, would they say the

same thing?

And that was always quite a good comment I thought too.

Yeah.

That's what my mum used to say.

Wise words.

Good bit of Christine.

Wise words.

Wise words then.

Having the audience well trained is a good way of putting it.

But like your audience is huge.

Your podcast is the most popular podcast in New Zealand.

There's a spin off to the radio show.

I know you put a lot of effort into that too.

But like the audience is just there.

And I feel like it's because of the way you engage with them

too.

Like bringing in calls is quite unique to your show for

breakfast radio.

Like the amount of call-ins, am I right in thinking?

Yeah, drive was easy.

Like everybody's active or driving home or, you know,

towards the end of the work day, they'll be like, I'll take

10 minutes to make a bloody phone call.

But like mornings is different.

And yeah, it took a little while to turn it around.

Yeah, we're amazed at the time people.

Time and story people give up so good in the morning.

Yeah, our first few weeks at ZM, we did some phone-ins and

we were just like, fuck.

It's hard.

Because I don't really think they used to do that many phone-in

topics on ZM in the morning before we took over.

So they're, yeah, but mostly giveaways and stuff.

So yeah.

I love the bit you've got at the moment.

I was listening on the way in.

Your audience is obviously so big that you think up an

impossible angle that surely like it's going to be really

hard for someone to relate to the story and phone-in.

But there's always people that do.

And also the trick is the minute you tell people they can't do it,

they're desperate to do it.

I get the piss taken out of me, don't I?

Yeah, before that, Fletcher would be like,

there's no way, there's not going to be anybody listening.

But all that does is stir people up.

I'll fucking show her.

I think we did one, have you died?

And like we had all these calls from people that are,

oh yeah, I died for like 10 minutes.

I died for 20.

It was brilliant.

Yeah, it was insane.

I think the listeners have been the strongest part of our show.

Absolutely.

Absolutely.

Like just the yarns you can have with them.

It's just brilliant.

Yeah.

They're like, sorry, Karen.

No, we were just speaking about how a lot of podcasts are now going down the route,

the route of radio shows, like having listeners to their podcast on.

Episodes where they record it.

But like the Always Sunny in Philadelphia podcast where Conan.

Conan does it as well.

Conan has, Conan O'Brien needs a fan where he talks to someone

that listens somewhere in the world.

The Always Sunny Guys do an episode where they literally

tweet out a number saying, we're recording live if you want to talk.

Now they'll call in.

Yeah.

I was like, podcast is a digivolving back into radio.

Yeah.

You're writing these ideas.

I've got these all.

I wanted to ask is, does that continue off air,

that sort of familiarity with your audience?

Like, does it get to a point where people just come up and they feel like they know you

and they know everything about you and you have zero idea about them?

Yeah, it's weird, isn't it?

Yeah, it is weird.

Yeah.

And I guess radio was always good because you could hide a little bit in your anonymity

but with social media and it kind of becoming a hand-in-hand part of promoting the show as well.

People might recognise you a bit more or just scream Fletch at you to which I turn around

and I say, that's fucking right.

Fuck you, wrong Fletch.

All the time, all the time.

So yeah, but people, as we said, like people are genuinely really nice.

Yeah.

It's never a bad, yeah.

I mean, maybe sometimes people are quite drunk.

I was at a wedding recently and the guy was real drunk.

He's like, you know what I hate about your show?

I was like, oh, please do tell me, I'm absolutely hanging.

That fact of the day, jingle.

I was like, oh, what do you hate about it?

And he's like, I just fucking hate it.

But I like the rest of your show, you're all right.

And I was like, okay, man, cool.

Just that fucking jingle.

And as I walked away, I was like, okay, thank you.

But yeah, people, it's weird the things people recall and know about you,

especially if they've been listening for a long time.

Yeah.

And then when they come up to you, they're just like,

like, and they forget that you don't know who the fuck they are.

You're in the car with them every day.

So in their mind, you are in the car with them every day.

And they're like, hi.

And you're like, hi.

Like, wait a minute, you don't know me.

I'm like, no, I don't.

But what is your name?

And it is nice to meet you.

And it always takes me by surprise.

I'm like, why are you staring?

Oh, that's right.

Yeah.

It's my job.

Seamus, I hope I'm okay to say this.

Seamus is in a new relationship.

And you're not, but that's fine.

Is this a hard launch?

Is this a hard launch in the relationship?

We had launched it with Morgan last week.

And his partner was a fan of the show.

So I remember Shae saying on the first date,

like she knew a lot about,

because she'd listened to a bunch of episodes.

So she felt like she knew him really well.

And he's like, this is a weird dynamic where, I guess,

yeah, similar to what you were saying.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

It's hard.

Yeah.

I mean, it means you've got a job, right?

Like people listen.

Yeah.

It's great.

It's getting more and more of a thing for Stephen and I.

Definitely.

Like people coming up and going, hey, love the podcast.

How are you?

How's this?

How's that?

How's this stuff?

It's quite cool.

Has your partner thrown anything in your face yet?

No, not yet.

Oh, I'll afford to that.

You think you can talk about fucking anything on that radio show?

As of right now, our episode with Morgan hasn't aired yet.

Well, that or it's going to open a whole lot of new doors.

Maybe, maybe.

Vaughn, one of the evolutions of your radio persona

was your dad's journey with the kids, which I think,

I mean, I've certainly related to it.

I followed you on Instagram and stuff like that.

How do you decide, and has it changed over the years,

how much of it to share and how much of it to put on social media?

Yeah, it was, it's an interesting one.

I remember when, when my second daughter was born,

someone in management said,

how much is he going to be talking about the kids?

Because, you know, we're not like a dad's station.

But like it was good that that feedback got through.

It was flesh.

But it's, I always get so much engagement on it.

Like, if you talk on air about your kids,

people love talking about their kids,

so they'll call them with their own stories.

They're their kids, but I don't care about other people's kids.

I don't care about my kids.

But it is one of those things and it gets you, like,

instant engagement with people.

And you might have nothing in common with someone,

apart from the fact that they're a dad too.

And I hear from so many people that are like,

I don't listen to the station.

It's not my music.

I'll listen to the podcast sometimes.

But like, when you talk about the dad stuff,

I'm like, oh my God, I'm going through that too.

I've been through that or I remember going through that.

But like levels of it to share have,

well, my kids are kind of old enough now where I'll ask them.

I'll be like, do you mind if I put that photo of you doing that on Instagram?

And they're like, no, that's okay.

Or like, that's cool.

But and there was one that blew up and got out of control.

And it was when my daughter August was two,

maybe under two, about two, and she was pouring milk.

And she was pouring it.

And she was like, oh, and then panicked.

And the milk went everywhere.

And I put it on Instagram because it was such an adored,

like just watching her face be like, how do I stop this thing?

And I put it on Instagram on like a Friday night.

And I woke up on Saturday morning and it was everywhere.

Like people were sending gifs to me and like memes that were like,

when I see a guy with red flags, but I don't know how to stop.

And it's like, my favorite was they were pouring

what she was pouring into the hut river, which was flooded.

Yes.

Yes.

Yeah.

And her face was like, it was everywhere.

And it was all like mostly good.

But then there was the occasional one that was like,

just name was Trolls saying, ah, well, one was like,

you can see the autism from here.

And I was like, what?

Like, what does that even mean?

Like, well, like kids are starving and you're wasting all this milk.

That was another one.

The milk, I can't afford milk.

And it's like, well, it was a free promo bottle of milk.

I don't mean to be wasting milk.

We didn't know it was going to happen.

But I mean, I didn't engage with any of it.

But there was a few that people that shared it that I just messaged.

I was like, hey, like it's kind of, if you're going to monitor the comments

and delete anything, because my wife really didn't.

Some of the comments really got to her.

Like that's a waste or, you know, like kids shouldn't be unsupervised

or what's that kid doing?

All that parenting, blah, blah, blah, that the internet's famous for.

She kind of really felt it.

Whereas I'm just like, water off a duck's back.

Fuck them.

I don't know them.

I couldn't care what they think.

But so I'd messaged them about it.

Hey, if you can leave it up, monitor the comments, but we'll just take it down.

And people were really respectful of it.

They were like, absolutely.

I wouldn't have put it up if I thought there was going to be any negative or,

yeah, I'll turn off comments and stuff.

So that was kind of a bit of a wake up for you.

Can't control how crazy it goes.

So you do have to be a little bit, you know, there has to be a little bit

of thought go into it.

So yeah, yeah, there's thought, but like on air, like the story's sharing it.

I haven't said anything I regret sharing on air because yeah, it's just like

people can relate to it.

Yep.

Yeah.

So and the emotion is slightly taught.

But the part that I really relate to on the show is when they break you.

Yeah.

It's like your dad seeing a really message and like,

we don't say this stuff out loud to each other or something with your kids.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

That element of it, yeah.

It just creates a deeper level of connection, I think.

Yeah, yeah.

People will really like that.

And Fletch doesn't have emotion.

So I've got to carry that burden.

It's lovely to see.

It's so nice to see.

Yeah.

And then I remember the, my, the producers went down and recorded a video for my dad

on one of my birthdays and it was a lovely message.

But like, it just broke me because my dad growing up was like,

a hard man dad.

Like he was in debt up to his eyeballs.

He had to work.

Like, you know, he worked nonstop as a dairy farmer trying to like feed us all and everything.

And as a kid, you don't appreciate it.

But when you get a bit older, like that's why he was tired and grumpy.

The guy never took a day off.

And as he's got older, especially when he had grandkids, he just softened right up.

And being him emotional now just sets me off every time.

And then I remember in this video listening and be like,

oh my God, my dad's saying the nicest things.

And I was crying and I was looking at Fletch and he was almost like that evil kid.

Mamie was like looking, licking his lips just when I looked at him.

This is good radio, radio cold tears.

Cry the tears, the tears are what fuel me.

It kind of, for a minute, I was like, and then I was like back in the moment and I go.

Radio gold.

Yeah, it was radio gold.

Yeah.

Hard to put that on an A4 piece of paper.

Very hard.

To the radio wall.

Put it on a fridge door though, Ari.

Yeah.

Um, not many more for me.

I just want to touch on ratings.

Like 19 years, I imagine, did you follow them closer through the drive show?

Or through the beginning of the breakfast years?

Or do you still, like it's a quarterly, right?

Quarterly ratings coming out.

Like do you still sweat on those?

Are they still?

Well, it used to be just twice a year, didn't it?

And so all the radio stations would be like,

we're $10,000 now, we're $50,000.

And so kind of skewed a little bit.

Whereas now it's 40 weeks of the year.

Every week.

And so it's kind of made consistency the more of the winner,

which is good for us.

Yeah.

But it's hard.

It's kind of difficult for people that aren't on radio.

It takes a long time for a radio show to establish and build listeners

and even a station years and years and years.

Like, I mean, when I started at the edge,

it wasn't even broadcasting in Auckland.

Few stations that like we were in Auckland working

and we couldn't even hear the show.

And then you'd go to Christchurch and people would just mob you

and you'd be like, oh, weird, people listen.

And then, yeah, we got a frequency in Auckland, I think.

Was it the year you started?

Yeah, just before I started.

2004.

And then by the time we left in 2002.

10.

10.

I don't know.

12.

4.

13.

14.

13.

We'd literally just got to number one in the drive and breakfast.

So it took like 10 years and then we were like,

okay, we're leaving now.

We're going to work for the station with the low ratings.

See if we can do this again, eh?

Break yourself, shall we?

Yeah.

But I'm, yeah, I don't worry too much.

I know people, and rightly so, because people's jobs and stuff

depend on it and you've got to be able to sell it

and so the company's got to be able to make money

and that's all there is to base that sort of thing on.

But I don't tend to worry about it too much.

I know how to read it and how it works and,

but like, yeah, you look at the longer trends

and if it's kind of going up and that's in the right direction.

But I try not to stress, if you stress about it,

I mean, there's so many factors that are out of your hands.

You could be having the best shows of your life,

but a natural disaster means everybody's going to be

listening to New Silk's ZB because they want to know

the latest with it and it was like COVID hit and we're like,

okay, so no one's in cars and we know a lot of our

listings in cars and everyone's going to be listening for

where we're at, what's happening.

You could be, and it was great, but the people that were

at that stage, we weren't getting as much ratings wise,

but the feedback we were getting from people was like,

invaluable. People were like, oh, you know, it's,

it's just nice to be able to listen to you guys

and it's not just all bad news and lockdowns and stuff.

It's positive or it's taking my mind off it.

So yeah, I've always liked that a lot more and put a lot

more value on it for my own personal achievements and stuff

and that sort of thing rather than the ratings.

But they've gone, they've kind of got back to where they were

pre-COVID, like it took a big hit because yeah,

people like you said, people just weren't listening

in their cars and they were at home.

Looking forward, we've obviously got the 20th party next year,

but outside of that, and it might be a question you get a lot,

but do, how much longer, how long can you go?

Like, do you think about what you'll do for the second half

of your career? Will you stay in radio?

Have you, have you thought about it?

No.

How long have you got left on your mortgage?

Five, 84 years.

Okay, so yes, he will be here.

I will be here forever.

Yeah, I don't want to be one of those people

that's desperately clinging to it.

If the writing's on the wall and it's done, it's done,

and I definitely don't want to do talk back

and I couldn't do a show by myself,

just like introducing old classic rock songs or whatever.

So I would happily, like, when it's done, it's done

and walk away from it, move to rural New Zealand,

probably Hamilton, actually.

Yeah, yeah.

Right, right.

What a beautiful climate.

Out of the Golden Triangle.

Yes, food production and other transmittable diseases.

And that's the Chlamydia Triangle.

Yes.

No longer existing anymore.

I think we broke that.

We broke the Triangle.

Well, it's just a straight line now between Fungarangas, but...

I would easily move to rural New Zealand and, I don't know,

I don't know what I'd do, get a bit of land

and try to make some money off the land or buy out.

I always say to my wife, it's an orchard up north.

It's an orchard up north.

Like, that's the dream.

Just to retire on the land and have an orchard where...

I do the most amount of pottery I can

without actually having to do hard work.

That's my fletch.

Yeah, I don't just, I guess, while we're enjoying it,

because we've always said like, yeah, it would be a

horrible day to a breakfast show

if you didn't enjoy working with the people you do work with.

All right, it'd be nothing like that.

Especially those hours if there was stress and it'd be horrible.

But yeah, just ride it out for as long as we can.

We should, before we wrap up, we should briefly touch on Hayley

because we had her on, go back and listen to this.

Yes, I did, listen.

If you were at this point, a fantastic episode.

Very talented woman.

Is she still busy?

She's still busy.

Dude, she loves being busy.

She loves.

I have to tell her to cancel things sometimes.

I'm like, you're doing too much.

Yeah, you're allowed to not do something for the day.

So busy.

Well, her marching, like, she'd be like,

I've never really had weekends.

I'm like, weekends, when you're getting up at four o'clock in the morning,

weekends at the end of the night, you've got to have them.

You've got to have time to chill and pretend you're going to sleep in

and then wake up at 6.30 and be like, fuck.

I'm awake now.

But yeah, she is very, very, very talented.

Like, annoyingly so.

She is.

We played the song she made for your 40th in our episode.

Yeah.

What a tune.

Like, she's come out with that and put that much effort into it.

Yeah, I know.

And it's, but she makes it look effortless.

Like, yeah, she's.

And literally, sometimes it takes her like five or 10 minutes

to write one of those things.

Oh, yeah, parody songs.

And then watching her do it live, you're just like insane.

Phenomenal.

So talented.

So talented.

Yeah.

But yeah, absolute workaholic.

But she loves it.

Yeah.

Thank you so much for,

have you got a few bits and pieces there, Chef?

No.

All right, I'm going to do my mini intro,

mini outro.

I'm going to pass to the outro master.

But thank you so much for giving us your time.

Coming out of three hours radio,

it's probably the last thing you felt like doing a long form pod.

But it's been so great retracing your journey.

And yeah, we really appreciate you guys coming on.

But here's the outro guy.

Fuck yes.

So bad.

It's actually been a real inspiring conversation

and spending time with you two because the fact that,

and I don't mean to use this term,

but you've commercialized the friendship essentially.

Or at least you get to show that friendship off.

And that's what Stephen and I are doing.

And this is, it's amazing to spend time with one of your best mates,

just chatting and being vulnerable and opening up.

And the subjects that you talk about,

it's almost sort of reshaping masculinity in a way.

And we're all of a similar age.

And the fact that you can show different sides to your character

has a massive impact on a generation.

And it's really awesome to know that as well,

you can look back on where you've been,

where you are now and where you're going to be in the future

with pride and with joy and look back at that body of work

and go, fuck, there's some pretty awesome things that we did.

And I hope that we can aspire to do that as well.

And maybe one day we'll be celebrating

our 20th kind of anniversary of doing this pod,

or 21st, whatever it is.

But it's just so cool.

It's so cool to see two guys that have achieved the success they have

and to share some time and to share some tips with us.

So thanks very much for your time.

All right, I know, how a pleasure, thank you.

You are better at the intros, at the outros.

I felt.

That was lovely, thank you.

I felt.

Yeah, Fletcher and Vaughn, thanks for your time.

All right.

Thank you, Ambassadors.

Hey guys, if you've made it this far,

hopefully that means you've enjoyed this episode.

And if you feel strongly enough about it to share on social media,

that would be much appreciated.

Also, make sure you subscribe to the show in your podcast app

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Catch you next week.

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Machine-generated transcript that may contain inaccuracies.