Mamamia Out Loud: "Fake Feminists Are Trying To Kill Me"

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Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters that this podcast is recorded

on.

Mamma Mia out loud!

Welcome to Mamma Mia out loud.

It's what women are actually talking about on Monday the 28th of August, which is my

mother's birthday, incidentally.

Happy birthday, Mum.

Not that she listens.

I'm Holly Wainwright.

Doesn't she?

Thank God she doesn't.

Really?

I thought she'd listen to Stay in Touch with you.

No.

She thinks all this talking about things endlessly is insufferable.

I forgot about that.

I'm Mia Friedman and my mother listens religiously and she's a paid subscriber.

I'm Claire Stevens and same with my mum.

And she has ideas and thoughts and often topic suggestions, so very helpful.

She's almost always right.

And on the show today, an unsolicited kiss, a furious football team and a storm of mass

resignations.

The Spanish football saga explained.

Plus, what's the 3-3-3 rule?

Can a post about life truths on Instagram really change your damn life?

And a very famous American family is addicted to marrying Australians.

But just like us, their weddings are exposing a few rifts.

But first, Mia Friedman.

In case you missed it, Trump has a mug shot and now you can buy it on an actual mug from

his campaign.

I saw the memes before I saw any news about this.

I was confused for a moment.

See, the internet was very excited because of some recent charges.

He's got 90-something different charges across a whole bunch of different cases, across a

whole lot of different jurisdictions in America.

But this particular one, he was charged last week with 18 alleged co-conspirators with

attempting to overturn his 2020 election defeat in the state of Georgia.

This is a pretty big one, although people say that about everyone and I just despair

about the whole thing.

What's interesting about this?

It was immediately memeified.

He looks like a cartoon villain.

It looks like a deliberate choice that faces pulling.

Yes, it was a deliberate choice.

And like so many of these sort of milestones on this journey we've all been dragged along

against our will with Trump.

You think, oh, this will be his humiliating moment.

But his campaign are so clever in establishing, reclaiming, reinventing the narrative that

they had their fingers on the buttons ready as soon as that mug shot dropped to get out

their merch.

Really?

It's on t-shirts.

It's on mugs.

It's on posters.

It's on drink coolers.

The slogan that they put all over it is election interference never surrender.

Even though he's been charged with election interference, they're making it seem like he's

been defending the interference of the election, which is the reason that he claims that he

lost.

It's worked.

It's raised so much money.

He's turned himself into even more of an icon that he's like this champion of the people

with this mug shot.

Now he's become like a martyr and there's all this stuff going around about the world

leaders who have put their opposition in prison, and it's like Mussolini and Stalin

and now Biden, because apparently the Democrats have done this question.

There's just so much I don't understand.

Is he going to prison?

God, I wish he was.

Oh, no.

Because he's still the front runner, right, for the Republican nomination.

Why mug shot, but no prison?

A mug shot just means you've been charged with something and he's been charged with a lot

of other things.

But there's something about this particular case.

If he becomes president, he can technically pardon himself from a lot of the charges if

he's convicted.

He can't actually do that with these particular ones because their state, even as future president,

would have no jurisdiction.

So the fact that he's still the front runner by a long way for the Republican nomination

and the first round of debates were last week with the Republican candidates, he wasn't

there.

Instead, he very cleverly did an interview with Tucker Carlson, who's a former Fox News

host and it went out on Twitter or whatever it's called, X.

The nightmare continues.

And he can still become president, even though he's being charged left, right and center

for crimes.

People are not clear about that because this is so unprecedented.

Because I saw a headline that was like Trump can't become president, but I don't understand

any of the news anymore.

I can't look at it.

Luis Rubiales was condemned for planting an unwanted kiss on the lips of Women's World

Cup winner, Jenny Hamoso.

And he refused to resign over the controversy, but now FIFA has acted.

Over the weekend, news broke that the president of the Spanish Football Association has been

suspended by FIFA after he kissed a player without her consent.

Now this story has many layers to it, so let's start at the beginning.

While giving out the winner's medals after the Spanish team won the Women's World Cup

in Sydney, Luis Rubiales kissed player Jenny Hamoso on the lips.

She later said it was not consensual and that it shocked her.

After the incident, she released a statement saying she felt vulnerable and a victim of

an impulse-driven sexist out-of-place act and simply put, I was not respected.

What's interesting and I'm sure most out-ladders have seen that photo taken from behind Jenny

Hamoso.

And what struck me is the way he was holding her head.

Completely both sides of her head.

She couldn't have moved it if she tried.

Like in a vice-like grip.

And we've all been kissed like that, willingly and some of us unwillingly, where someone

holds your head and kisses you and you can't move.

What's interesting is what happened next though, because we did see those photos and also video.

As the story was reported more and more, particularly in Spanish media, Rubiales was expected to resign

on Friday, but at an emergency meeting of the Spanish Football Federation, he refused

to resign, instead saying the little peck was spontaneous, mutual, euphoric and consensual.

And he gave this fiery speech where he said Hamoso said okay when he asked if he could

kiss her and that she actually grabbed him and lifted him up.

Rubiales also claimed to be the victim of a witch hunt by false feminists and said the

kiss was the same, I could give one of my daughters.

Didn't he also say I'm going to take legal action?

Yes.

So what happened was the Spanish Football Federation then published photos of the kiss

and like spelt out all the body language that indicated it was consensual and that it was

actually her coming onto him.

So this is like the administration.

The bosses of the boss.

In Spain.

The bosses of the boss and then the players work for them.

They have their own union.

So the Spanish Football Federation then said they were suing Hamoso for defamation.

They said they tried to engage with her and she wasn't responding, which is what they

always say in these sorts of situations.

But her statement makes it really clear that they were pressuring her to make a statement

to justify Rubiales's actions and she was saying I'm not going to do that.

It should be noted he is receiving almost no support in Spain.

Except from his bosses.

Well, from the Spanish Football Association, but even the vice president of the Football

Federation, who had been in charge of women's football, he's resigned as well as at least

two other Federation members and they've encouraged Rubiales to do the same.

Only at the, I'm sorry, but only at the absolute 11th hour when FIFA stepped in and said we're

overruling all of you clowns.

He's got a guy.

He had all the support.

And this is really important to note.

I'm sure you're about to tell us anyway.

Last Monday, Mia and I were talking about the coach, Jorge Vilda, right?

15 of Spain's best female footballers had said we refuse to play for him and this administration,

which means Rubiales and his friends, right?

Rubiales is the one who told them all to get stuffed and that they were standing by Vilda,

right?

Now, eight of those women withdrew their sort of resignation, if you like, and three of

them were at the World Cup.

They tried to push out this toxic administration and it was Rubiales, who was the one who said,

no, they only now are suddenly going, oh, OK, because the pressure has become so enormous.

Yes, but in the media in Spain, the consensus is this guy's got to resign, which makes it

so absurd that he stood up and gave this speech.

So following his comments, 23 members of Spain's World Cup squad, 32 other squad members and

58 former players said they would not play for the Spanish national team while Rubiales

is president.

On Saturday, FIFA stepped in and announced they had suspended him for 90 days to allow

for disciplinary proceedings.

And Amoso's statement says this incident is the final straw and that the attitudes we're

seeing on display have been part of their team's daily life for years.

And as you say, Holly, you might remember, head of the World Cup, some of Spain's best

players refuse to play.

This has been described as Spain's Me Too movement and is apparently dominating

conversation around dinner tables all over the country.

Mia, if the president of Spain's Football Federation is prepared to do this on the

world stage and stand by it, should we be worried about what goes on behind closed doors?

Well, when we were speaking about the coach and about how there was such a division with

the players and we saw when they won the World Cup final and the players and the coaching

staff didn't mix.

And that's why this was even more egregious and flagrant that he grabbed her and kissed

her. And I remember reading that she'd immediately commented, I didn't ask for that or I didn't

want that or something like that, like immediately to waiting media or whatever it was.

Even though we don't know the details of the estrangement from the coach, as Hull said,

we know that there's been stuff going on for years and I suspect that now more and more

is going to come out.

If you look at the fact that the leading female soccer team in the world, even before this

World Cup, they were right up there.

Now they're the World Cup winners have had to endure this.

What really cheered me was the fact that the Linus's who were defeated by these amazing

women, all the players Linus has sent an open letter of support saying, this is outrageous.

He needs to resign.

I follow a lot of female soccer players, a lot of American female soccer players and

of course the Matilda's, the American female soccer players have had their own battles

fighting for equal pay and they've been very vocal about it and about the extraordinary

gaslighting of him coming out and saying, it was consensual, I'm going to sue her like

we've got eyes.

We saw it.

We all saw it.

Football Federation are suing her.

They're suing her for defamation because they're threatening to sue the other players.

It's still going on.

To me, this story illustrates, you know, it's very fashionable at the minute to get eye

rolly about me too and to go, it's gone too far.

I mean, these days, like really, this is a perfect illustration of what the whole thing

was always about because this is a case of women who have been putting up with a lot

of shit for a very long time.

We don't know all the details of it, but we do know that they have been making noise

and complaining and saying for a very long time, things weren't right here, that they

weren't being respected.

Now, you know, again, we can't go into detail about that because we don't know, but they

clearly have been trying to have their voices heard for ages and the Football Federation

who hold all the power and men like Ruby Alice who hold all the power and have all his crony

friends and a big legal fund and all the rest of it can always tell them to shut up.

And that's exactly what they did.

They told these players to shut up.

Do you want to play?

If you want to play, shut up.

And of course, they wanted to play because they dedicated their whole life to this.

The fact that it took a moment like that, which if it wasn't for all that context, I

imagine there would be conversations about, well, well, it's cultural.

Well, it was just a moment.

Yeah.

Well, it's just a kiss, a moment of celebration.

What's all the fuss about?

If it wasn't for that context, that's probably what a lot of people would be saying.

Yeah.

When instead, what we're actually seeing is finally, finally, people are listening to these women.

I would like to see more male football players supporting them.

Yeah.

Spain is home to some of the biggest and most successful football teams in the world.

Barcelona, Real Madrid, you know, really, really major football players.

I noticed that.

Some of the highest paid footballers in the world play in Spain.

Only a couple of their voices are being heard.

I was hoping that the men's team would stand down in solidarity or strike or something

because it's really disappointing, you know, that the lionesses have come.

Other countries have supported them, but the fact that it's down to the women,

but also the way that it was done so openly like that is such a power move.

And when you say, oh, but in the heat of the moment and whatever,

we've watched a lot of games.

Australia has a male coach.

Most teams do, except for the British team.

Most teams do have male coaches and male administrators.

I've never seen that.

You know what else he did when they won, when the Spanish team won,

there is this footage of him grabbing his crotch and aggressively shaking it.

Which again, it's just a demonstration of the culture that these women are talking about.

I mean, within this federation, I don't mean a broader national culture.

Like in and of itself, you could argue, well, you know, he was excited.

But it just is such an illustration of the culture they're talking about.

And it's great in a way that there is so much support out there.

But it's also sad because what it's shown is that this is what it's taken

for it to be taken seriously.

What I found that I couldn't look away from with this story was that the federation,

so they then, you know, published this big statement with all the photos

and their analysis of how it was actually her fault.

And in that statement, they said, the RFEF laments that after such an

extraordinary sporting success as witnessed in the World Football Championship,

the situation cannot be celebrated as it deserves due to entirely non-sporting reasons.

AKA, Amoso, you ruined it.

Yeah, you ruined it.

And that is so familiar to so many women.

When you're such a buzz girl, you ladies.

And the sentiment from them is stop making such a big deal out of this.

What I love about everything she has said about this and her statement,

she is not making a big deal.

She's just telling the truth.

All she's saying is this was not consensual.

She has this line where she's like, I did not like this.

She is not trying to create this huge issue, but it is a huge issue

because he will not admit that it happened.

And I'm sure that every single player on that team and in that organization

wishes that this wasn't the conversation that they were having

just after winning the highest glory in their sport.

I'm sure they would, but that's not their fault, is it?

Because they've been raising the alarm for a while.

There's a list of 30 life hacks that's going viral at the moment.

These things happen from time to time.

I think it's headlined 30 things.

I know at 30 that I wish I'd known at 20.

And I'm usually a little bit eye rolly about these kinds of things,

because I'm like, look, how wise can you be at 30 anyway?

Let's be just frank for a moment.

Excuse me, I'm very wise.

But then I started reading them and I was a little bit taken

with some of them and I'm going to just draw your attention.

To number seven, it's called the 333 plan.

It was on an Instagram page called Library Mindset.

It's credited to a guy called Chris Sarka.

I don't really know who he is, but I just like the hacks anyway.

I'm going to read you one.

Some kind of investment, man.

Is he?

Yes.

OK.

Yes, he's very successful, I think, actually.

Yeah.

So he says, write down your 333 plan.

So the first three is to spend three hours of deep work

on your most important project.

Now, the second three is to execute on shorter tasks.

These are urgent to-dos.

These are like sticky note items you may be avoiding,

you know, managing, delegating, providing feedback, coaching,

calls, meetings, smaller work tasks that, you know,

maybe like their tasks that you really haven't been wanting to do.

Now, the third three is your maintenance activities.

So this gives you nine hours of solid work.

Defining a productive day is crucial.

Or else you'll never be at peace.

And I just had such an aha moment about that,

because I'm in a constant state of overwhelm.

And I'm also very...

I've got a lot of things swirling around my brain.

And I find the pressure from not doing those things

and not having done those things is so much worse

than actually just sitting down and doing them.

But I don't know how to just sit down and do them.

So this, to me, is a very important thing.

So this, to me, is a framework that I can really understand.

So in another one of the 30 life hacks,

Chris Sarkis says,

identify what time in your day is most productive.

So some people are night owls.

And I know that Jesse is, Claire, I'm not sure what you are.

Yes, I'm a night owl.

Except you're in pregnancy, I'm really tired.

Yeah, I'm not a night owl.

I'm not productive at night.

I'm morning between about nine and 12.

I think that's because when my ADHD man's kicking

and I'm just very focused.

And he says, block out those three hours

to be the times that you spend on your top priority.

He said, if you do that, you'll never worry about money again.

That's a bit of a simplistic way of looking at it,

because it might not be indexed to money for him it is,

but it's just basically, you really get shit done.

Because I spend a lot of time like a hummingbird

just skipping over things.

But here's my question and I get nothing done

and I'm never at peace.

This is my question about that,

because I like you feel like that me at 100% of the time.

Whenever I read these productivity hacks

and I know that Claire and Jesse have consumed

much of this kind of content and I dabble in it too.

But I'm like, I like that idea.

So the example would be like today for my work day,

the most important priority is mom, me or out loud.

We've got to get in, plan it, script it, record it.

That's that.

And then a secondary one might be a project

that we've got to do

and then the maintenance ones would be answering emails,

getting back to all of it.

So that would be how that is.

But in our lives, it doesn't just have to be work as well.

That's true.

Imagining in a work productive sense.

But in our lives, we are constantly interrupted, right?

So if you're doing a job like yours, Mia,

certainly like mine or certainly the one I used to do,

I might go, right, my priority for today is this,

but then I'll be here five minutes

and it'll be, oh no, actually the priority shifted

because there's a fire over here.

There's a project over there.

There's a thing that needs to happen there.

All that email is actually really important.

Can we get back to it now?

Can we do this?

Can we do this?

Can we do this?

And then you pulled off in a million directions.

Same thing with personal life.

You're like, I'm going to make all the doctor's appointments

for the children and then, you know,

inevitably meltdown, drama, whatever.

So it's great in theory.

Does it ever work in practice, class students?

I am feeling cynical about life hacks lately.

And I don't know if it's to do with my own mood

of being tired, but behavior change is far harder

than we give it credit for.

And I think there's a big difference

between knowing what we should do and actually doing it.

So that three, three, three plan,

I'm exactly the same, Mia.

I go, oh my God, genius.

I can't get anything done.

I am always flighty and I can never prioritize.

Imagine if I did that.

Imagine if I just did three hours a day

on my most important project, how simple.

Because how else do you define a productive day?

And my problem is I don't have a definition

and therefore every day is not a productive day.

Exactly.

Like sometimes to me, oh, if I make a list

and get the things out of my head,

that's not really productive.

And also I never, ever, ever feel

like I've accomplished anything.

But I wonder what you say about feeling overwhelmed

and feeling like you never have a productive day.

Is that because of self-improvement culture?

Is this just a cycle?

Because I read so many life hacks

and I read so many things about habits.

Do you think you need to actually do your work in that?

I just like, I could quote the most profound things

about how we should live our lives.

I'm doing none of them.

Have any of them work though?

Cause I know that you have tried a lot of these.

So that one, for example, about identify

which three hours of the day you're most productive,

because most people don't necessarily get to choose that.

They're like, well, my work hours are this to this,

so I'd better just fit my life in around it.

But if you do have the freedom to do it,

have you found that some of these things do work?

What I find works is, and I think this is what

we should be focusing on,

you actually need an emotional shift in order to change.

When you think about behavior change,

for me, it's things that have provided an emotional shift.

So like examining your life and thinking about

what you're actually passionate about.

But that even still, for me, that took years

to actually turn into action.

I also worry that the focus on individualistic

self-improvement is a cop out.

Because there are huge things that could change

on a social level, that could change our behavior.

One of the things in this 30 life hacks

was the best productivity tool on your phone

is aeroplane mode.

Yes, but that's interesting to me,

because that's on the individual,

that it's like aeroplane mode,

that's resisting all the tech companies.

Like it is on me.

This isn't what I always argue, it's them.

They've ruined our lives.

Yes, I think our built environment

and a whole lot of things about how our world

functions at the moment are built

to make us feel not good enough,

make us feel overwhelmed.

And to distract you constantly.

And to distract us.

And then we're just seeking out more and more life hacks

to try and resist it.

Why is it on me?

It should be on society.

Okay, I had this conversation with Alfie recently,

where she said the same thing.

Alfie, who is one of our co-hosts on Out Loud,

she said, it's not about this idea of individualism,

because I don't believe in it,

it's about society and it's about structural change.

To me, I can't change society.

I can't change the tech companies.

I can't put the genie back in the bottle

and take away smartphones.

The only thing I can control is me.

It just feels so defeatist what you say, Claire,

because then it's like,

well, I've just got to wait for tech companies to change,

or I've just got to go to a protest.

And by all means, go to that protest.

But in the meantime.

Well, here's the interesting thing though, Claire,

because I agree with you in lots and lots of ways.

However, what does actually change billionaire's minds

is whether or not people still want the thing they're selling.

So, for example, there's a whole movement here

about our fractured attention.

And for the first time, people are requesting,

can I have a dumb phone now?

And so some phone companies are designing clever dumb phones

and all that kind of stuff.

Slowly, slowly, the market does shift things to a point.

Only to a point, I agree with you very much

that there's much bigger structural thing here.

But I think the reason we're addicted to productivity hacks,

as you say, is because in the face of all that,

we do feel helpless.

And we're not entirely helpless.

Like, some people are more helpless than others.

But I can choose to draw boundaries around my work.

It will piss people off.

You know what I mean?

I can go, I'm spending three hours focusing on this thing today.

So, Mia, I'm not answering your emails.

I mean, I know you're not emailing me, but you know what I mean?

I can draw that boundary.

I would probably, exactly.

And then she'd find a way.

Then she'd come and wrap on the window to your house.

And I get all that.

But you know, you can do that.

I genuinely believe that the most powerful

you'll ever feel in your life is when you do effect a change.

And I think that whenever we do successfully change behavior,

you're 100% right, Claire, that it's hard.

It's really hard.

But when you do it, it is the most empowering feeling

in the world.

I guess the question is, with all this life hack culture,

there are 30 life hacks here.

I know.

You're not going to do them all.

No, you're not.

But you can cherry pick the ones you like best.

Which one did you like best?

So, this isn't so much a hack as an attitude,

which is a truth that I believe, right?

So it says, number six, success comes down to a simple choice.

Now, clearly it's not that simple.

But number one, decide exactly what you want.

That can be quite hard.

But once you've done it, determine the price you have to pay.

And three, choose if you're willing to pay it.

That is a truth.

It has taken me to this age to realize.

I think that women in particular believe that we can do everything.

If we're just more organized and if we're just better people,

the whole you can have it all, but also the busy, busy culture

that we've got, we believe that somehow we can do everything.

And if we don't do everything, we're failing.

When in actual fact, everything comes as a trade-off.

So for example, right now I'm in the middle of an intense riding phase.

I've been here before.

This is my fifth time.

It's always a surprise to me that the hours in the day

that it takes to actually sit down and focus and get a job done

don't just come from the ether.

That actually I have to say, no, kids, I can't come and do this thing

with you on Saturday afternoon.

I've got to spend three hours riding, you know, like that payoff is real.

And it always happens.

And then it's up to me to decide whether or not the cost is too high.

It's not helpful back to the point in the conversation about it's back

to the individual responsibility, but I find it freeing.

Like I find it freeing to be reminded of that and go, you know what, it's true.

Because when people say to you like they do to women all the time,

how do you do all these things?

And I know this has become such a cliche, but because it feels like

no one's ever listening, the truth is you don't do all these things.

You know, I don't do a lot of things that I'm sure that other parents

would do with their kids because I prioritize work sometimes over that.

If your definition of success is not to do with work, it might be,

I want to run a marathon.

You're going to have to find four hours in your week to train for a marathon

and that's going to come at a cost.

See, I think what I find helpful and what can be distinguished,

that's almost a decision making tool rather than a life hack.

Yes, it is.

Whereas what I enjoy is the decision making tool.

So there was one in there about, you know, choose what it is that you want to do

and you have to say no to everything else.

And I love that kind of stuff.

That really crystallizes things for me.

And I can often apply it directly to something in my life

and then look at how that's going to change my decision.

But stuff like the three, three, three plan,

I think I've just got so much in my head about what I meant to be doing

that it's paralyzing.

And I wonder if all the life hack stuff,

you just end up feeling so helpless and so overwhelmed

that you can't possibly do it all so you do nothing.

That's kind of where I'm at.

There's also life hackers procrastination, which I'm quite good at.

Yeah.

Hi, Mama Mia out loud.

This is Kate.

I used to have a way to remember there was an Avon lady

and her name was Mabel.

And every time she came to my door, I could not remember her name.

I actually came up with get off the table, Mabel, the money's for the beer.

Whenever I get the knock at the door, I look at her and think,

get off the table, Mabel, the money's for the beer.

Mabel, how are you?

It's so good to see you.

And literally, I never forgot her name again.

Keep up the great work.

Love your show.

If you want to make Mum Mia out loud, part of your routine five days a week,

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To get full access, follow the link in the show notes

and a big thank you to all our current subscribers.

Stop the presses.

Miley Cyrus's mum got married.

Now, if you're all going, why are you talking about this?

There are a couple of reasons.

One of them is that Tish Cyrus married an Australian, Dominic Purcell,

who was a massive blast from the past for me

because anyone who remembers the show Prison Break,

it was like really big in the noughties, early teens, maybe.

It was him and was his name went with Miller.

Yes.

And they were the hottest du jour for a while.

I was in Gossip Mag then and for a while everyone was briefly obsessed with them.

I haven't thought about him for 15 years.

But anyway, he's just married Tish Cyrus, who's Miley Cyrus's mum.

And Miley was at the wedding and the pictures are in vogue

and they're absolutely beautiful.

And Miley says to see my mum is happy and in love is very emotional for me.

They share the most sweet and genuine love.

And Tish says she feels like she's in a fairy tale,

which is red flag for me, but this is not about me.

She says she's in the most romantic fairy tale you could ever imagine.

Anyway, one of the reasons we're talking about this is,

A, the Cyrus women love Australians.

We all know that Miley was married to a Hemsworth, which one, Claire?

Liam.

And then she went out with Cody Simpson.

So she's got a thang for Australians.

And I totally get that because I'm from somewhere else too.

And when I first met a Kiwi and then an Australian, I was like,

oh, and I never went back.

Anyway. And then Billy Ray is also engaged or married,

we're not quite sure, to an Australian as well.

There you go.

They're everywhere.

We really punch above our race with the Cyrus family.

We really do.

But also why we want to talk about it is that this celebrity wedding

with all its bells and whistles and beautiful flowers

also revealed a pretty full on family rift, which is very relatable

because we all know that weddings are the moment when often things go

if someone isn't talking to somebody and somebody isn't invited to such and such.

Claire, tell me about the complicated rifts in the Cyrus family.

Who went to the wedding and who didn't?

OK, so Miley was at the wedding and she was the maid of honour and full support of mum,

full support of mum, help plan the wedding, team mum.

Now, her younger siblings, Noa Cyrus, who you'd probably know, she's got.

She's got music.

Yeah. I like her music.

And Bracen, who's also a musician who has one song.

Is he like the Rob Kardashian of the Cyrus family?

Very much, yes.

So they skipped their mum's wedding and spent the day at Walmart.

Noa was wearing a Billy Ray Cyrus t-shirt.

Thank you, break your heart.

Yeah, and there were a lot of kind of jabs the whole day where they were both

Noa and Bracen were on Instagram, kind of documenting their whole day.

Passing aggressive.

Yes, being like, look at us, we're here.

Bracen had flown in to see Noa,

but it's like he hadn't flown in to go to his mother's wedding.

But then the older siblings, so Miley, Brandy and Trace, were in attendance.

Sorry, how many of them are there?

There's a lot.

Six of them.

So there's them, but then there's also it's like the Kardashian family,

where there's like previous marriages and all of that.

There's a whole complicated family trait.

Basically, what happened is you could just see a complete split between

who has sided with dad, Billy Ray Cyrus, and who has sided with mum.

It made everybody look into all these things about who's following,

who and Miley and Billy Ray Cyrus and not following each other,

which I think is do that on your private accounts.

I love how that's now the official statement of who you've got beef with,

is whether you're following them on Instagram.

Weddings can be very difficult, though.

Like it's interesting because on Dominic Purcell's side,

his ex-wife is a friend of mine, someone I was at school with.

And she was at the wedding, Australian, with their children.

They were all there as well.

You know, she's since remarried and now he's remarried

and the families get on famously and it's not always easily won from the beginning.

It's often hard one.

I don't know them well enough to know what their situation was.

But there's something about when your parent remarries that really

crystallizes loyalties and it can be very, very compromising for adult children,

particularly if one of your parents is perhaps marrying someone

and there was a little bit of an overlap in those relationships,

the betrayal can feel epic.

And somebody feels responsible for the marriage breakdown.

I think this is such an example of like such a high profile wedding,

but it's a wedding that happens in every family because weddings

sometimes necessitate lines being drawn.

And it's to do with all the roles and traditions, even Miley being made of honour.

There are other girls in that family, do you know what I mean?

But the mum choosing her and there are some families where that would be fine.

There would be some really clear justification.

It's a moment where people rank things.

You know, how we've been teasing Mia that she likes to rank things.

Weddings force people to rank things.

Who gets to sit at the top table?

Who's the best man?

Who is the best man?

Not just a pretty good man, but the best one.

How many made of honours do you get?

Who do you choose and then where do the other people get to sit?

And then are you ranking your friends?

Is partners as important enough to be invited?

Or basically weddings force people into making little tables about people.

And that is not great.

And then putting those people from the tables on actual table,

which is a whole lot of figurative and literal.

Yeah.

And I think that there can be a lot of expectations that come from outside,

like, for example, what the bride and groom will do with their siblings,

like whether the sibling should be the maid of honour or, you know,

the sibling should be the best man and a lot of pressure can be put on people.

But now that there's more and more divorces,

marriages are more likely to end in divorce than not.

I remember when I separated from my husband for a few years

and we already had a child then.

And I remember thinking we are going to have to keep seeing each other at weddings

and Bummitzvers and birthday parties and all of those things.

And I know all of my friends who are divorced have to navigate those things.

It's just so that Tish and Billy Ray are not doing that, right?

So in my in-law family, Brent's parents, when they broke up,

they never spoke to each other again.

When Brent's brother got married, they eloped for that reason.

I've got lots of friends who did that, too.

They just said it would be way too complicated to work out who can go where,

who can be what.

I've got friends who've had to have two 30th birthdays,

two different wedding celebrations just to accommodate this kind of thing.

It's actually very common.

Do you guys think that when it comes to weddings, it needs to be like weapons down?

Because what people on social media got really upset about was that they said

with both Noah and Bracen, it wasn't about them not going like that's OK.

You can make that decision.

It was about them pulling focus.

It was about the mocking and it was about making it public on Instagram

and posting about it and kind of acting quite immature and pulling the attention.

That was the sentiment that people were looking at it, going,

let your mum just have her day.

I think you're totally right, Claire.

It's about weapons down because it's about not being the main character.

And the worst situations I've seen are when people insert themselves

as the main character on someone else's wedding day.

I'm recommending a movie called Licorice Pizza.

Now, it's written and directed by Paul Thomas Anderson,

who you might remember was the director, writer of Boogie Nights.

And I think he's also, fun fact, married to Maya Rudolph,

who is one of my favourite actresses from Saturday Night Live.

She's so funny. So many things.

I love her so much.

The movie actually stars Alana Hyam.

You know, the Hyam sisters?

Hyam, they're called Hyam.

Yes, I am.

Yeah, everyone's obsessed with Hyam.

Exactly. Sorry, I'm not calling him Hyam.

They're three sisters, which if you're more of a basic bitch

and you're not cool enough to know about Hyam,

you'll know them as the three ugly step sisters

at the beginning of Taylor Swift's Bedazzled.

No. You know, walk in the room.

Yeah.

Make the whole world shimmer.

You know, the beginning of that.

Laura Dern's the other stepmother.

Yes, yes.

But Jude, thank you, not Bedazzled.

That classic Taylor Swift song, Bedazzled.

Anyway, so this is all a very longwinded way to say that it's this gorgeous

film that's like a coming of age story of Alana Cain and Gary Valentine

growing up, running around and falling in love in the San Fernando Valley

in California in 1973.

Do you know who my girlfriend is?

Barbra Stray Sand.

Barbra Stray Sand.

Sand. Yeah, like sands, like the ocean, like beaches.

Barbra Stray Sand.

No, Stray Sand.

Sand.

This is beat that Barbra together.

Our roads took us here.

They're not my director.

Do you really want to see my boobs?

Can I touch them?

So it's about a young woman's journey of self-discovery

and trying out different jobs and clothes

and priorities and personalities.

And it's just so gorgeous.

It's on stand.

It is such a fantastic film.

I can't recommend it highly enough.

It's called Licorice Pizza.

I'm a little bit late to it.

It's not new.

It was like this indie cult hit a year or so ago.

If you're looking for something else to listen to,

on Friday's subscriber episode,

we unpacked the finale of season two.

I thought about nothing else all weekend.

Same.

I could have carried on for three and a half hours.

Oh, my gosh.

I want to do that episode all over again.

Me too.

Like a part two.

Oh, I know.

I've got so many more feelings.

Join that conversation.

A link to that episode will be in the show notes.

The out louders also could do their own version of a podcast.

Oh, they're so cool.

They have so many feelings.

Thoughts and feelings.

Thank you for listening to Australia's number one

news and pop culture show.

This episode was produced by Emmeline Gazillas.

The assistant producer is Tali Blackman

with audio production from Leah Porges.

Bye.

Bye.

Shout out to any Mamma Mia subscribers listening.

If you love the show and you want to support us,

subscribing to Mamma Mia is the very best way to do it.

There's a link in the episode description.

Machine-generated transcript that may contain inaccuracies.