Mamamia Out Loud: Everybody’s Fighting About A Fake Nose

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Mamma Mia Out Loud!

Hello and welcome to Mamma Mia Out Loud.

It's what women are actually talking about on Friday, August the 18th.

I'm Holly Wainwright.

I'm Mia Friedman.

And I'm Claire Stevens.

And on the show today, Bradley Cooper's in a whole lot of trouble about a fake nose.

Also, it appears to be official that Mia was right about trigger warnings.

And our best and worst of the week from a certain woman's right foot,

a statistic we just can't accept and a very complicated graph.

But first, in case you missed it, there's a whole bunch of new baby girl names trending thanks to the Matildas.

According to NameBerry, searches for the classic Australian name Matilda are currently up by 148% on the site.

It's been a popular name for a while.

People may know that the very famous Holly Wainwright has a daughter called Matilda.

Gordon Ramsay's daughter is Matilda.

The late Heath Ledger and Michelle Williams named their first daughter Matilda.

And then this year, actor Kaylee Cuoco named her daughter Matilda.

But it's actually some of the players whose names are seeing the biggest spikes,

not necessarily just the name Matilda.

So searches for the name Teagan are up by 500%.

Katrina is up by 450%.

Courtney is up by 200%.

Unusual spelling, Courtney.

Yes. Well, this is not that Courtney.

This is a different, the one who plays a defensive role.

So there's one Courtney that's spelt.

C-O-R-T-N-W-E.

Yes. Well, this is the traditional spelling of Courtney because there is another Courtney on the team.

And Alana is saying a 125% spike.

Some of those are like Alana and Katrina blasts from the past.

I know.

Making your resurgence.

Even Matilda, is it an old fashioned name hole?

It's kind of become cool in the last 10 years or so.

You always think that you're really original when you name your child.

And some people actually are.

Me, it was much more original than me.

But when I called my Matilda Matilda, I was very inspired by Heath Ledger.

That's the Generation X inspiration right there.

I thought it was really like original and different.

And then now Matilda's Oztag team, for example, there are four Matildas.

She is never, ever the only Matilda in her class.

There's always at least two, sometimes three.

So there's just endless variations of Tilly, Tilda, you know, all that stuff.

So Claire Stevens, I think it might be wise that you back away from me.

I know.

From the name that I love.

I just love that in a few years, we're going to have classrooms full of girls

named after the Australian soccer team.

I really, really enjoy that.

Actor Bradley Cooper is in the headlines today,

even though he's on strike and can't talk back or defend himself,

because he's been accused of perpetuating an offensive Jewish stereotype

in an upcoming movie that he co-wrote, directed and stars in.

And as the Jewish correspondent on the podcast,

I am the one that's bringing this topic today,

because a trailer for the movie Maestro was released overnight.

And in it, Bradley Cooper plays an American, legendary American composer

called Leonard Bernstein, who you might know of.

He wrote West Side Story, many other things.

And in the trailer, everyone's noticed that Bradley Cooper's wearing a prosthetic nose

and also a prosthetic chin in his portrayal of Leonard Bernstein.

So how long do we have to do this for?

We need to build up a very strong connection.

Some people online have suggested that it's an offensive, stereotypical portrayal

of a Jewish person known as Jew face, which is a word I hadn't heard before,

a term I hadn't heard before.

And I guess it's iterative of the idea of black face,

where we know that is incredibly offensive,

a white person painting their face black to portray someone who is black.

And here is the argument from those people who say it's offensive.

A British actor and activist Tracy Ann Oberman said on social media,

if Cooper needs to wear a prosthetic nose,

then that to me and many others is the equivalent of black face or yellow face.

If Bradley Cooper can't play the role through the power of acting alone,

then don't cast him, get a Jewish actor.

It turns out that Bradley Cooper played Elephant Man,

which is a character who had a major physical deformity

and he didn't use any prosthetics to play that character.

And so this idea of it being a stereotype and a negative stereotype

that Jewish people have big noses,

some people have said he shouldn't have done that,

while others have taken it further and said the role should have been played by a Jewish actor.

Now, Bernstein's own children have released a statement.

They've said, our dad was fine. We love Bradley Cooper.

He's consulted with us all the way through.

Our dad did have a big nose and we think he would be cool with it.

Very brief history.

The hooked nose stereotype is associated with Jewish people

and is deeply anti-Semitic and gained prominence through,

funnily enough, Nazi propaganda in the 1930s.

Claire, do you have a view?

At first I saw it and I gasped.

I went, oh my gosh, I cannot believe in this day and age.

He's done that and that nobody pointed it out.

And there's some funny commentary going around where people are like,

hey, come on now, don't blame Bradley Cooper.

Like, let's look at who directed the film.

That's also Bradley Cooper.

So people are thinking, no, this was very much his artistic choice.

I think it's important to have the conversation

because a lot of people don't necessarily know the associations of the Jewish nose

and you just think it's like this little funny stereotype

that we might laugh about now and that people in Hollywood, for example,

it's been reframed to be positive and beautiful.

And I often look at people and women with really distinctive noses

and think it's super, super attractive.

But I think it's important for people to know what it meant.

It's been weaponized.

And sometimes still is.

Yes, and that the insinuation in Nazi Germany

was that Jewish people were an alien race

who had poisoned the country and that race mixing weakened Germany

and that that hook nose stereotype was part of what they used to propagate this idea.

That they were not to be trusted and that they should have deeply exterminated

which the Nazis tried to do with six million Jews who were murdered.

It was part of the rationale for the Holocaust.

And I think from those photos where you see Bradley Cooper

and then you see Leonard Bernstein and you see that the nose doesn't look similar.

It's almost as though it's not making a non-Jewish actor look more like that character.

It's about making a non-Jewish actor look more like a Jewish stereotype

and that feels really, really uncomfortable.

Look, I don't like getting offended on behalf of people

who are perfectly able to express whether or not they're offended, right?

And the fact that Bernstein's family have come out and said

it happens to be true that Leonard Bernstein had a nice big nose.

That's what they've said.

And is something anti-Semitic because it has something in common

with something that is anti-Semitic, right?

So the problematic exaggeration of noses for the purposes of demonizing Jews

in those examples you've just given is clearly anti-Semitic.

But the choice to change your face to make yourself look more like a Jewish maestro

for the purposes of a biopic that celebrates him.

I watched the trailer.

It looks beautiful.

Are those two things the same?

Do you know what I mean?

Like, are those two things the same?

Because I would suggest probably not.

The broader question is, Bradley Cooper clearly is a passion project for him

just like a star is born, writing, directing, producing.

It's his baby.

Should he be the one to tell Leonard Bernstein's story as a non-Jewish person?

That's an interesting question.

The nose I feel like is a bit of a furphy.

Of course.

And apparently it was Jake Gyllenhaal who was originally kind of signed on

to do a Bernstein movie.

Yes, who was originally signed on to do a Bernstein movie.

And then kind of Bradley Cooper took over.

Lots of people point out though that Jewish, although it is true that lots of non-Jewish people

have played Jewish people over the years.

It's also true that lots of Jewish people have played non-Jewish people.

Lots of Jewish actors are often like, oh, you'll do as an Italian.

Oh, you'll do as like there's a kind of joke about that that goes around.

So it's a more complicated situation.

Mia.

I judged before about being the Jewish correspondent.

I don't speak for all Jewish people, obviously.

But I just wanted before I say what I think, read you a list of some of the actors who are Jewish

that might surprise you to learn that they're Jewish.

Daniel Radcliffe, Jack Black, Rashida Jones, Joaquin Phoenix, Harrison Ford, Adam Sandler,

Seth Rogen, Ashley Tisdale, Mila Kunis, Andrew Garfield, Natalie Portman, Jeff Goldblum,

Jake and Maggie Gyllenhaal, Maya Rudolph, Sarah Silverman, Pink, David Schwimmer, Paul Rudd,

Ben Stiller, Shia Labouf, Scarlett Johansson, so many.

And I want to address Sarah Michelle Gellar.

Oh, look, I'm reading this list and going, oh, I didn't know that when I'm a writer.

You know, all these people, Alison Brie, Jonah Hill, Kate Hudson.

Jewish people don't all look the same way.

And that's why I wanted to read that list.

Having said that, though, Jew face is awful as an expression and just feels kind of yucky.

But I am not fussed by this.

I'm a bit like you, Hull.

I straightaway thought, oh, I better be offended.

And then I looked more closely at it, which we always encourage out louders and everybody to do whenever there's just an inflamed outrage on the internet.

Look more closely and make your own decision.

The other thing is that when you're talking about appropriating someone's culture,

you have to also look at the context of that.

And so in this case, I don't think a big nose necessarily appropriating the culture,

but you couldn't argue that people who are Jewish have been locked out of roles in Hollywood, right?

None of those people that I've mentioned, some of the biggest stars in Hollywood are Jewish.

So not that this has always been the case, but I think that I believe very strongly that actors

should that's the point of actors.

If we start saying everybody can only play a role that is their own sexuality, their own gender, their own religion,

their own political beliefs, their own hair color, their own physicality, what happens?

But then I can also see how we've talked on this show before about Brendan Fraser playing someone who is morbidly obese in the whale

and wearing a fat suit to do that.

It is complicated just when you think, this is what I think.

You'll find an example, but you just go, oh, Gwen Pautra wearing a fat suit to play a character.

The best illustration of that is what you just said.

Historically, Hollywood and more broadly than Hollywood has had Anglo straight men play everybody,

literally everybody playing Lawrence of Arabia and playing Jesus and playing absolutely everybody.

Let's just put the make upon and send the one out there.

And I think it's great that that's not the case anymore because it's opening doors for actors who actually are those minorities

and diversifying the content that we're seeing and looking up to all the time is great.

This isn't really that, as you say Mia, this isn't really what that's about.

And so that's an interesting thing to wrestle with is because something's adjacent to something problematic,

as much as that word is overused, because something's adjacent to something that is definitely problematic.

Is it problematic?

I don't think Bradley Cooper has done this to be cruel.

And I don't think that the movie should be that people should boycott the movie or cancel it or anything like that.

I just thought as soon as I saw the prosthetic and I saw the conversation around it,

I thought this is actually a really interesting and important conversation to have because people don't necessarily know all the connotations of that.

I did think there's a really funny conversation going on at the moment about how Hollywood almost uses prosthetics when they don't need them

because there's this weird association between using prosthetics and winning Oscars.

People seem to always win Oscars when they use prosthetics.

Nicole Kidman playing Virginia Woolf.

And there's quite a few examples.

Brendan Fraser in that spatsuit we were just talking about, he was nominated.

Exactly.

So it's sort of like, is it a gratuitous just use prosthetics because it somehow makes it seem more acting-ish?

But isn't that just a lie?

Like if you've gone, Bradley Cooper is playing a Jewish character.

Let's signal that this person is Jewish by giving him a big stereotypical fake nose.

That would be terrible.

But Bradley Cooper wearing a nose that makes him look less like Bradley Cooper and more like the person he's playing.

That isn't terrible.

I think what really got people was the photo that showed that at least in the photo that people are sharing that Leonard Bernstein didn't necessarily have that nose.

It's a little bit of a gotcha.

I mean, if his own children said he had a nice big nose, well, I think surely we can let this rest.

An article by Jill Filippovich in The Atlantic was published with the headline, I was wrong about trigger warnings and asks whether the obsession with trauma has done real damage to teenage girls.

Filippovich is one of my favorite writers and she shares how when she was writing for a feminist blog in 2008, readers started requesting warnings at the beginning of stories that touched on distressing topics like sexual assault.

She discusses that warnings quickly became the norm and they all thought they were making the world a little bit better by using them.

But she says the demand for warnings continued to increase.

She says she wrote about a piece of conservative legislation that was so awful it made me want to throw up and one commenter asked for an eating disorder trigger warning.

And she said she posted a link to a funny Buzzfeed photo compilation and a commenter said it needed a trigger warning because the pictures of cats attacking dogs look like domestic violence.

She says she spoke to a man who would run a mental health program at a university for 22 years who had noticed that the way young people were talking about upsetting events had changed.

He talked about a sense of people feeling like they'd been harmed by things that were previously thought of as just uncomfortable, like comments from a lecture or dealing with someone whose personal beliefs were different to theirs.

From there, she says workplaces became toxic, colleagues became problematic and so on.

She's essentially asking, in giving greater weight to claims of individual hurt and victimization, have we inadvertently raised a generation that has fewer tools to manage hardship and transform adversity into agency?

Mia, this has been your argument for a while.

Yeah. And I think it comes back to, I'm working on a piece for the website on this at the moment because I'm going to close the circle connecting it back to helicopter parenting.

That this idea that when you've had someone around to clear your way to help you not experience any bad emotions and then you're in the wide open world and you are reading something or watching something or listening to something

and you have a bad feeling, you're not used to having that bad feeling.

And so you become indignant that you, because you feel that you should be protected from this bad feeling.

And I've always believed that it's actually, and the research that's come out that's confirmed this have been a lot of talk about it lately.

That exposure to these things is the best way to heal and avoidance of things that are upsetting or distressing is a whole world of other problems.

That's actually the worst way to recover from any kind of trauma, whole.

Look, I've always argued when we talk about trigger warnings, I've always argued against you because I don't really think they're very harmful.

My position has always been, if they're helpful to some people, they're great, right?

The other thing is, is that working in women's media, just as, you know, this writer has, we are always asked for them.

Like if we don't put trigger warnings on, and we've gone through phases at Mama Mia of times when we've lent more into trigger warnings and lent out again,

it's not that the writers and the editors are necessarily saying, this needs it, this needs it, this needs it.

It's that very often the audience is telling us and saying, this should have had a trigger warning.

I found this very upsetting. I should have known what I was getting into.

Now, I've read this article too, and I'm very happy to look at the research and go, I'm sure that's true.

But there's a much bigger issue, right?

When we talk about a generation of anxious women in particular, I think it's easier and more convenient to point at individual helicopter parents,

and it is to point at, you know, trigger warnings on websites, then what's actually true, which is what we're seeing is the first generation that's grown up in a world designed

to make rich people richer by steering everything through an algorithm that just serves us more scary and anxiety inducing news, right?

And information, when I was young, I could seek out confronting content.

And I often did, like if you think about those books that teenage girls love to read about drug addiction and even traumatic moments in history,

like the Holocaust and serial killer books.

But the difference is I chose that, like I chose to engage with that, and I knew what I was getting.

But when you're swimming on the internet, and there's just this tide coming at you all the time, more scary, more anxiety inducing,

more awful things that are happening to women everywhere in the world, I don't think you can blame people for wanting to curate like a safer bubble for themselves.

Do you know what I mean?

So I often, my issue with it is a bit more about where the blame of it lies.

Do you know what I mean?

It's the technology that screwed us.

It's not individual snowflakes in inverted commas going, oh, I can't possibly be upset about anything.

It's the fact that we live in a more anxiety inducing world than we ever have, because people are profiting from it.

Yes and no.

I think that's a really interesting point.

But I would say that never in history has anyone felt that it was their right to be protected from negative emotions.

And I think that what all the research has shown, and you don't even have to look at the research, you can just think about it, is that this utopian idea of being able to create this bubble for yourself is actually not possible.

And to encourage the delusion.

But we can't now.

No, we didn't hold, because you could always be.

That's your point.

You could.

You couldn't.

But life always throws you trauma.

No, but that's not what we're talking about, right?

We're not talking about trauma that actually happens to you.

You're talking about reading about watching, observing trauma happening to other people that triggers the trauma in you.

You could never know when something, someone's going to say something to you.

You never know when you're going to see something in the street or on a TV show.

And that is not different, you know, because we've also used this word trigger and confuse trauma with just being reminded of something unpleasant.

The idea here is that using trigger warnings and really adopting this language of trauma has actually reframed how people think about their own lives.

And the point is that applying the language of trauma to an event changes the way we process it and actually makes it more emotionally salient.

So I remember studying psychology, learning that after traumatic events, so say you're in a horrible car accident, terrorist attack, whatever,

that it used to be that you would send in people, sort of first responders, but for the purpose of well-being and mental health.

And you'd send these people in and get them to help the people who are involved process it.

And they actually found that made it worse and that made the likelihood of PTSD higher because basically what you were saying to people is you should be traumatized by this.

And the fact is that a lot of people experience all kinds of events and actually process it really, really well.

The amount of people who have a car accident and yes, you might get flashbacks and yes, you might experience some distress in the short period afterwards,

but we as humans are really, really resilient and often we're able to overcome that stuff naturally.

And so the point here is that perception becomes reality and if we're constantly giving people trigger warnings for anything that could potentially be distressing,

we're telling people that you should be distressed by anything in your life that makes you uncomfortable and that qualifies as trauma.

The other thing that I think is really concerning is the idea of being defined by your trauma or being defined by something that bad that happened to you,

that it then becomes part of your identity.

And I think that we also have to look at in progressive circles, there's a lot of status in victimhood.

And not to say that bad things don't happen to people and that we shouldn't be kind and compassionate and that we want people to suffer needlessly, of course.

And that's where, you know, I think the intention of trigger warnings came from such a good place.

As Jill says, you know, it's about saying, hey, I care and I don't want our readers, our listeners, our viewers to be upset and I think that's really positive.

But she says that she now realizes that's become part of the problem because of this idea of everyone being defined by their trauma,

instead of it just being a thing that happened to you or that you experienced that was awful,

but that does not then require ongoing avoidance of certain things for the rest of your life.

But this is my issue with this is it sounds like you're telling people how they should be reacting to things that have happened in their life when the point of a trigger warning is it's just giving people a choice.

Like, if I'm not traumatized by reading about a domestic violence incident or a stillbirth or something, if that's not traumatic for me, I just read it.

But if there's a warning at the top, I can go, you know what, today, right now, today, on Friday afternoon, I do not want to be hijacked by the worst moment of my life when I wasn't expecting it.

So I'm going to choose to put my phone down and walk away.

So as a fiction author, how do you overlay that philosophy into the writing and the reading of fiction?

I don't I don't think that it's like there's this one rule that like if you think that trigger warnings have a place, you should put them on everything always.

But as I've said to you many times, every time I sit down to watch a TV show, it will say this show can trade.

I'm talking about I'm talking about books and the back of a book and I decide do I want to feel like that or not?

Well, Holly, if it playing devil's advocate, your last book, you debated whether it needed a trigger warning.

I did you decided that I know I don't think the book should have trigger warnings, but I don't think they should misrepresent what they're about either.

But then how can you ever have a plot twist?

How can anything unexpected happen to a character if you fly have to flag at all?

I don't think that's what we're talking about here.

We're talking about traumatic events on the Internet where people are deciding whether or not they want to read things like I'm not.

You always want to push me to a place where I think that everything in the world should have a trigger warning and I've never been in that place.

I just really do understand and empathize with people who don't want to be thrown back to their worst moments when they're not expecting it.

Your first, Mia.

Oh.

It's time for a best and worst of the week.

I'm going to go first and my worst, I've been to two funerals in this last week and just really hard and sad and particularly around people you love having lost a parent.

That's something that I think is often really underestimated and people are like, oh, well, they were old.

It's not unexpected.

And in actual fact, you can change who you even feel you are.

And, you know, I've got people close to me who this has happened to recently and not only have they felt completely unmoored by it, but also that not that no one cares.

But the level of distress they feel and grief that they feel is not just a shock to them, but it's a shock to everyone else because it's like, oh, but they were old or they were unwell or wasn't, you know, they had a good life.

So yeah, that was my worst.

My best is a diagram that was sent to me this week of the connection.

Someone, someone very, very dedicated has created this incredible sort of interactive or this incredible diagram when it looks a little bit like COVID under a microscope, but it's actually this very detailed diagram of the connections between all the women on all the World Cup teams,

the ones that have dated, the ones that have hooked up, the ones that have been married, the ones that have lived together, the ones that have children, and it's so detailed and so clever.

And it is this beautiful interconnected web.

And the other part of my best is just this idea of the visibility.

I was reading a piece yesterday that said this is the gayest World Cup ever.

And the way that we have just seen all different kinds of families and relationships and types of love on display over the World Cup has been my best.

I've just loved it.

My worst this week is heavy.

Trigger warning, it is heavy.

Last week, a 30 year old woman called Taylor Cox was murdered in Rockampton, Queensland, along with her 11 week old baby Murphy.

Her husband has been charged.

On Wednesday this week, as we all pulled on our green and gold, a young mother of four, Drew Douglas, who'd also just had a baby a few weeks before, was murdered in St Mary's in Sydney.

Her partner has been charged and police have said that the couple, and I quote, had a history of domestic violence.

Also this week, the Minister for Social Services, Amanda Richworth, announced a new five year plan to reduce the number of women murdered by their partners by 25% each year.

Now, I struggled whether this should be my best or my worst this week in a way because the fact that the government is talking about this, it should be a best, right?

This is a number, the statistics of women murdered by partners or former partners or men they know is a stubborn statistic that we can't shift.

And it's something that absolutely needs to be talked about more and more and more and acted on government level.

But there's something so broadly horrifying about the idea of trying to reduce the percentage of dead women that just speaks to the scale of the problem, right?

And how impossible it seems to be to tackle it.

There's really good things in this plan. For the first time, for example, there's going to be a dedicated body for Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander family safety, which is really needed because Indigenous women are six times more likely to be the victim of this type of murder.

But 25% of a year, what 75% of women's deaths are acceptable? It's August, right? And we're at 35 women murdered in 2023, which eight and a half of those should and would have been saved under this plan.

Taylor or Drew, like which one? I just understood how complicated it is.

I just didn't say it like that. I just saw it. I mean, I get what you're saying when you said that, I sort of gasped.

But I saw it as the government holding themselves accountable because 25% is measurable and it's a brave anyone that sets a measurable target.

And I know it sounds awful when you're talking about lives. It's like, oh, well, sorry, sorry to those 75% that we couldn't reduce their risk of being murdered.

But in actual fact, we've seen so much empty statements about we must change, blah, blah, blah, but saying 25%, it's like, well, wow, okay, that's a line in the sand.

But I also know what you're saying. And we do it for, I guess you do it in a medical sense, like you do it for reducing stillbirth numbers.

Or the road toll. You talk about the same thing with the road toll hole. Exactly.

Oh, I get it. Like I totally get it. It's like from a policy position, it makes sense.

There has been no action and there needs to be action, right? I'm really glad that the government was talking about it.

As soon as I heard about it, I'm like, great. But 25% is not an acceptable target. It's just not.

All of those women should have been waking up with their families this week, like every one of them.

And so I get it. And I don't mean it's my worst because I don't think the government care or they're not trying hard enough.

I'm really glad they are. I think it's my worst because of what it speaks to. It speaks to the fact that these numbers are big, that we hope we can chip away at it, but we can't be sure.

It's just so sad. My best is the Matilda's changing the world. I think all our best are a little bit Matilda related.

Very short. I'll keep it very short because I wrote a whole story about this thanking the Matildas for changing absolutely everything.

And as soon as that game finished on Wednesday night, I had this overwhelming feeling of, I hope they don't feel like they've let us down.

I hope they know what they've done for sport and for women and for the whole country.

And so thank you to the Matildas and I'll be watching them play tomorrow night.

And I feel like it's our chance to say thank you again. So thank you.

And I'll put my thank you link in the show notes.

My worst is we spoke about flaking earlier in the week and I had a horrible flaking experience that I am deeply ashamed of because it was just, oh God, it makes me feel sick.

So what happened was my phone, I have somebody in my life who I love very, very, very much, but who has been calling me about 60 times a day because there is a certain musical coming up and he's very excited.

But I was trying to get some work done.

So what I did was my phone kept filling up with notifications from when he calls.

The out loudest who might not know who you're talking about.

This is your cousin, Simon, who has an intellectual disability and loves a musical.

And loves a musical and it's Wicked's coming up.

I can't go to opening night because I have something else on and he is very upset.

Anyway, so I was like, I will call him back, but I need to not get the 60 notifications of every time he called, I get a text.

Well, what I thought was really clever was that I feel bad muting him.

So I went to my phone and I turned off my text message notifications completely.

Now, that night I was meant to be having dinner with two friends and I saw that one friend said, oh my gosh, sorry, I can't come.

Like, I'm so sorry, can we reschedule?

So in my head, I thought, okay, we're rescheduling.

And then I didn't look at my messages again.

Then last night I get into bed and I'm just about to doze off and I go, oh, I forgot to check my messages again.

I check my messages and the other friend is like, hey, I'm here at the restaurant.

Are you here?

And that had been sent at 7pm and it was now 11.

And she had sent a series of messages that I had missed and I haven't felt that sick.

I was like, I am a horrible...

The imagery of somebody turning up somewhere and me not being there and then not being contactable.

And I'd also put my phone on do not disturb because I was calling anyway.

So I sent her a big message this morning and just said, I am so embarrassed.

But all the out louders in the Facebook group talking about how bad flaking is, it is horrible.

And I am a terrible, terrible person.

I don't think that's a flake.

I think that's a mistake.

That was an explanation I had to go into.

Because remember that you've just broken the cardinal rule of flaking, which is you don't explain.

Because that all sounds like a lie.

Oh my God, it's so bad.

But I feel like I am dropping balls all over the place and I dropped that ball.

And I went, who on earth mutes their text messages?

You do.

So really, what if there was an emergency anyway?

So I've got the notifications back on, but he's still calling about Wicked anyway.

So I just feel horrible and I'm just shout out to Katie if she's listening.

I'm so sorry.

I'm so sorry.

My best.

Sam Kerr is right for it.

So when we were all watching the Matilda's, that goal by Sam Kerr was unlike anything I've ever seen.

And the people I was watching it with, the reaction was so pure because we could not believe that everybody was just yelling,

you don't take a shot from there.

I know.

You don't, it's too far.

When you're watching the replay, so she's running, she's run half the field.

She's got two players coming at her.

She stops, lines it up and kicks it as she's running and they're charging.

And it's just, it doesn't happen.

You don't, you don't see that.

It was also so wonderful that she got to do that because we haven't seen her do that at all right during the World Cup because she wasn't playing.

And before the World Cup, everyone would have said, oh, I know who Sam Kerr is and she's really good, but we haven't seen it.

And so I'm just so glad that she got to do that.

Same.

And everybody's like, oh, shit, they weren't lying.

I'm, I'm so glad that we got that moment.

And it's also a reminder that within, within disappointment and within losing, there are moments of greatness.

And this is a tenuous link and I'm sorry for plugging myself again.

But my, my related best is that the second season of But Are You Happy is dropping next week.

And I do think looking at something like the Matilda's, it's the perfect example of people who appear to have it all.

They've got the whole country on their back and the tension in that and the complicated feelings and their conversations this season are very much about kind of fame,

success and all the kind of uncomfortable emotions that can come with that.

And you're not always winning.

And so I think the Matilda's is a very big reminder of the fact that people in the spotlight, people who we look up to are having all their own issues that we can't even comprehend when the stakes are that high.

So it drops next Thursday.

Please listen.

I'm very excited.

I've got a recommendation before we go.

So Kitchen Cabinet came back on the ABC this week, right?

Which is a show that Annabelle Crabbe hosts where she goes to politicians' houses and they have to cook her dinner.

Now it's been rested for a few years and some people do not like this show.

There's a lot of criticism of this show because they say that Annabelle Crabbe, who obviously is the most respected political, one of the most respected political journalists in Australia,

gives too much of a free kick really to politicians with all kinds of problematic views because she goes to their house and she talks to them like human beings and we get insights into their lives.

I love this show.

I have always loved this show.

But for that exact reason, I love getting to peek behind the curtain.

And the first one of this new season is with Dai Lee, who is a federal politician who, in this sort of big upset, she stopped Christina Canealy, who's a really famous Labour politician from winning the seat of Fowler in Western Sydney.

And she kind of, she's an independent and she is from Vietnamese background and she's just a real, she used to be a liberal.

Like we're probably quite, she and I am sure probably wouldn't agree about that much if we sat down over her delicious crispy Vietnamese pancakes.

But her story is so interesting.

She talks about being a little girl, hurried out of Vietnam by her mother.

They have no idea what happened to their dad.

It's so interesting.

It's about resilience.

It's about taking whole communities for granted.

It's really good.

The food is also nice.

And personally, I like seeing the human side of politicians.

I can't believe I have lived in New York for 35 years and I've never been to Korea.

And just like that's nearly finished.

We're on the second last episode.

Do you know every week I have a text fight with a friend of the pod, Bex Barrow, about Aidan and Carrie.

And because people are invested in this show, we're invested in this show, we have recapped the episode for subscribers.

There's a link in the show notes.

Schedule your husband's vasectomy.

Check that your overseas friends haven't become monks.

And if you're going to shit talk your ex, make sure they're not sitting in the crowd at your comedy concert.

Episode 10 of And Just Like That is here.

And we have some thoughts.

This episode, I couldn't deal with it.

Hated it?

There's a link in our show notes.

Thank you for listening to Australia's number one news and pop culture show.

The executive producer of this episode is Tulissa Bazaas.

The producer is Tali Blackman and there's been audio production by Lies Ratliff.

Goodbye.

Bye.

Shout out to any Mamma Mia subscribers listening.

If you love the show and want to support us as well, subscribing to Mamma Mia is the very best way to do so.

There is a link in the episode description.

Hey, it's Claire Stevens here and I'm back for a second season of But Are You Happy?

The podcast that asks the questions you're not really meant to ask in conversations with the people who appear to have it all.

But Are You Happy is the podcast that taps into the universal vulnerabilities we share as human beings

and goes behind the image we craft for other people.

We're all battling with the same questions and no matter how successful someone appears,

life is messy and complicated and gloriously imperfect.

When did the world tell you you'd be happy and you weren't?

Do the people closest to you celebrate your success or ignore it?

Who do you compare yourself to?

This season we're talking to Matty J, Laura Henshaw, Brittany Hockley, Deal Buckley and many more

and I cannot wait for you to hear it.

But Are You Happy starts next week wherever you get your podcasts.

Machine-generated transcript that may contain inaccuracies.