Mamamia Out Loud: Don’t Interfere. This Is My Canon Event.

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Mamma Mia Out Loud!

Hello and welcome to Mamma Mia Out Loud.

It's what women are actually talking about on Wednesday, August the 16th.

I'm Mia Friedman.

I'm Claire Stevens.

And I'm Holly Wainwright.

And before we get started today, I have a hot tip.

For anyone listening to this Before the Matilda's Game on Wednesday night,

or maybe, just maybe, this Sunday,

it's how to deal with the ridiculous feeling of hope and anxious expectation that you have in your stomach right now.

And if you don't care at all about football,

feel free to just apply my upcoming wisdom to any other areas of your life.

Just call me Yoda.

Where I grew up in the north of England, where soccer is a religion,

we have a saying about football, and it's this.

It's the hope that kills you.

So, friends, to deal with today and tonight, and whatever may come,

you have to do something that is completely counter-intuitive to the Australian sporting ethos.

You have to kill hope.

You have to go into this game like this.

Well, of course, we're going to lose.

Because I really, really, really want them to win, so why would they win?

Of course, they're going to lose, right?

That's how you have to go into it.

That's what I did last game, and I messaged you guys saying they were going to lose.

No, I feel like this is sending very bad energy the Matilda's way.

You have to think, England are the Euro champions.

They have only lost one game in the 37 they've played under their super-female coach, Serena Wegman.

And when that little hopeless voice says, yes, but that game was against the Matilda's,

you have to go, shut up, shut up, hope.

I know what you're trying to do here.

You're trying to trick me into complacency.

You're trying to shatter my heart into a million pieces.

You're trying to make me believe you're a monster, right?

You're a monster, hope.

Until the final whistle blows, or that last penalty is in the net, we do not believe.

Football is 50% excellent skills, 50% vibes.

And those vibes are luck and karma, right?

We've all seen it.

The best teams in the world knocked out by like a few millimeters,

or a ball just bending to do some weird magic thing that it shouldn't be able to do.

And that's all about weird luck and karma.

And is the team good enough to make the most of those vibes?

Absolutely.

Will it happen?

Probably not.

I don't understand this whole.

Firstly, we talk about there's two types of people, a radiator and a drain.

Claire is a drain.

Jesse is a drain.

You are a radiator.

So you are usually a very positive person.

And the second thing, because, you know, the sports stuff's quite new to me.

I'm one of the bandwagoners who's just sort of discovered.

She says while wearing a Matilda's hat.

Oh, you know, I've got a star this.

It's wild in the office today.

It is insane.

We've changed the name of the website to the Mama Tilda's.

Someone came in and said, let's do that.

And then everyone jumped on.

And then it was just changed.

And it's green and gold.

It's great.

It's a great day.

So I'm very much a bandwagoner.

And I don't understand if everyone took that to heart.

No one would go to a game.

No one would watch a game.

No one would disagree.

Disagree.

Absolutely not.

It's like, what I want you to think about, Mia, is I want you to think about the

2016 presidential election.

I want you to think about how we all wore pantsuits.

And we all shared memes about how now there was a sensible woman running the

world.

I want you to think about that before it happened.

You are jinxing it.

You are pulling forward the camera and you're twisting it.

A very important note.

You can only employ this.

I like to call it, it's the opposite of positive visualization.

It's called negative resignation, right?

You can only employ negative resignation if you're a spectator.

So if you're like on the couch with your chips or in the pub with a bit, you

can't employ it if you're actually playing.

That's a different thing.

They've got to believe.

But for us, do your bit for the Matilda's think they're going to lose.

It's a very British way to approach it and it's specifically anti-American

because Americans would do the opposite.

They'd say, believe.

You just believe and then it happens.

But I feel like this is also quite Australian.

We like being the underdog and that's what makes us exciting is that it's

incredibly unlikely we'll win.

And if we do, we will lose our collective shit.

And that makes it so much more fun.

No, no, no, no.

Best thing about negative resignation is the joy explosion when you're wrong.

Yes.

You want to be wrong, but until then, we're very resigned.

On the show today, the great debate about the public holiday that in my opinion

is the biggest jinx ever.

See previous conversation.

Also, what is a Canon event and does your life have one?

Yes.

The answer is yes.

Let us help you find it.

And flaking, apparently not showing up is absolutely fine.

But first, Mia.

Prime Minister Anthony Albanese has flagged the possibility of workers enjoying

a day off in recognition of the Matildas.

Should the beloved team win the World Cup final on Sunday?

Look, these are decisions that are for state and territory governments.

But the Matildas are inspiring an entire nation is what is happening.

And I certainly wish the Matildas all the best.

The whole of Australia will be watching the Matildas and cheering them on.

Public holiday for everyone, it might be.

New South Wales residents have been promised that they'll get the day off.

Premier Chris Minns said contingency plans were underway.

If the Matildas win the World Cup final, then yes,

we'll pursue a public holiday in New South Wales.

Trying to make himself popular.

Not just to celebrate the victory,

but also to have a massive civic celebration

and allow the Matildas to celebrate with the people of Sydney

what would be an amazing, like, life-changing and unbelievable event

in the state's history.

I love how New South Wales and Chris Minns is just claiming it.

It's just saying it's iconic for New South Wales.

Why? Because the victory happened here?

Yeah, I feel like some of the games are getting played here.

I feel like that's a little bit of a stretch.

Opposition leader Peter Dutton, however, rejects this idea

and believes that money would be better spent

being put back into women's sport

rather than paying for everyone to have the day off.

I think a better way to spend the money is to create a legacy

of not just the Matildas, but the Diamonds

who just had a very successful campaign.

Obviously, the women's ashes team in the UK

who had success, $250 million is what we're proposing

to spend on an upgrade of facilities

so that young girls at sports clubs

and, you know, right around the country

don't have to get changed in the car park

or don't have to go to the toilet in the boys' toilets

or, you know, in the change rooms.

And I think that would be a lasting legacy

and a great outcome for participation in female sports

and those young girls.

So, you know, I think they deserve better facilities.

And I think, frankly, that would be, you know,

a great legacy for our country.

There's a bit of mixed feelings about this.

Small business say it's really tough

because it will cost big and small business

public holiday loadings.

It will cost revenue.

Some will not be able to afford to open.

Public holidays are not great for the economy,

let it be said, at a time when

cost of living and things are a bit difficult

for many businesses.

However, day off on the plus side.

Claire, where do you stand?

I read that a public holiday

has a net neutral effect on the economy.

I don't understand that claim.

I don't know if it's true.

I'd just like to put it out there

because it sounds important.

It might be the overall economy,

but for individual businesses,

it can be quite tricky.

I feel like it's good for me as an employee.

Oh, as an employee.

It's awesome because you get paid to not go to work,

I believe.

Yes, yes.

Or you get paid more to go to work

than a lot of professions.

I'm here for a public holiday always,

obviously.

Nothing to add.

That's because you don't own a business.

Correct.

Of course, there are some practical issues.

Cost of living crisis,

what you've said about business owners

and the argument that money could be better spent

at a grassroots level to support women in sport.

But I'd argue, let's do both.

Oh, that's great.

Do you understand how budgets

and the economy works?

I feel like it's a very Peter Dutton thing to do.

It's like, let's have a public holiday.

No, no, no.

Let's not have the fun.

Why do a public holiday

when we could just put more money into women's sport?

Okay.

When was the last time you put money

into women's sport, Peter Dutton?

But I don't think a public holiday is a silly idea.

Money is great,

but money is also short term.

It's one injection into a problem

that is realistically going to take years and years to solve,

which is building up a whole lot of women's sports

that don't have the facilities at a grassroots level

and therefore don't even have the support at a big level.

So what's sustainable and long term is the need for fans

for Australians buying tickets and jerseys

and turning up to support female sporting teams.

And I believe a public holiday raises the stakes even further

and galvanizes fans,

and the impact of that is immeasurable.

Give me my public holiday.

Okay.

Controversial, because I also really enjoy holidays.

I want to be on the record with that.

And I want statues of Haley Raso and Catlin Ford

and everyone in every town square in the nation.

And I want the Prime Minister to get a Tilly's tattoo on his forehead.

Yes.

That would really show some commitment.

I do think the public holiday idea is a bit silly.

I'm actually a bit team-mere on this.

Not for the same reasons probably,

but I don't think the public holiday needs to become

like the benchmark for showing that we really care about something.

People already really, really, really care about the Matilda's.

So much money has been spent on merch.

The landscape of women's sport has been changed forever

by what's happened in these past three weeks.

I was reading today about how the TV rights for the women's World Cup

went to seven for $5 million.

They were like, I don't know.

I don't want to pay $5 million.

Can you imagine what the next World Cup TV rights are going to go for?

Can you imagine the shift that has been made

by just seeing what is happening here?

I think people are already obsessed with the Matilda's.

I think we're already celebrating them.

I don't think a public holiday is the benchmark for that.

And I hate to agree with Peter Dutton about anything,

but I do think that genuine investment in grassroots sports

would make more difference.

Holly, how would you feel about swapping out

Matilda's public holiday for Queen's birthday?

Oh, that would be fine.

That would be fine, wouldn't it?

Because we're celebrating something important to our culture

and getting rid of that public holiday that you don't like very much.

That's true.

If we're going to mess with public holidays,

I think a lot of people put their hand up and say there's one.

We should definitely be messing with in January.

So I think the idea that we can just keep pulling them out

and throwing them down and moving them around is a little bit...

I find that exciting.

It's a movable feast of public holidays.

But you never know.

You never know.

Like, sometimes they change the names of a street

or even a suburb.

Yes.

Like, maybe Anthony Albanese would just wake up one day

and say, I'm not feeling it.

Who wants to public holiday?

Me.

Always.

It's Wednesday.

Interestingly, Victoria has form, of course.

You might not realise this if you don't live in Victoria,

but they have two sporting public holidays.

That's true.

I'm not sure if any other states do,

but they have a public holiday for the Melbourne Cup

and they have a holiday for the AFL Grand Final,

even though it's on a Saturday.

I find it so unfair.

They have a holiday on the Friday because there's a parade

and maybe some children want to go and watch the parade.

So, yeah, look,

I don't think it's a very popular political position

to take away a public holiday, right?

So Victoria, if they also have a soccer one,

then you can imagine then the netball people

and the tennis people and the swimming people.

Suddenly, every sport gets a public holiday.

I think it's outrageous

that a whole state has a public holiday for a horse race.

I'm not going to get into it with the AFL fans,

but I just think that's not very cool.

But if the Matilda's win,

and we do get this public holiday,

let's use the public holiday to celebrate the diamonds

and the Australian women's hockey team.

But when you say that,

what do you do on that day, right?

So, for example, Anzac Day,

and you can tell a lot about a society

by what is important to a society

or the people in charge of that society

by what their public holidays are, right?

So in America, they have Martin Luther King Day,

we've got the Queen's birthday,

there's January 26th,

which is a very contentious public holiday.

What would you actually do?

If there was a Matilda's public holiday,

how would that be marked?

We could all go and watch women play sport.

We could go play sport.

We could watch, re-watch all the games.

There is so much we could do on this public holiday.

I would love it.

You're just being bad on your phone.

I think they're talking about a one-off, right?

They're not talking about it forevermore.

It's like one day after celebrating Matilda's.

The only other thing is,

I don't know that our tillies need any extra pressure,

and as previously discussed, this is a lot of jinxing.

A lot of jinxing.

Remember, we're into negative resignation.

I do want it on the record here, though,

that if we do get one, I'm very happy to take it.

And spend the day worshiping at the altar of our new goddesses.

I think a better way to spend the money

is to create a legacy of not just the Matilda's, but...

Mother Mia, out loud!

...who just had a very successful campaign.

I can't interrupt. It's a Canon event.

That's a phrase you might have seen all over the internet

in the past couple of weeks.

I haven't.

You haven't?

No, and when you said we're doing Canon events,

I did a little bit of research, quick research,

and I still don't understand what it is.

That's lucky I'm here. I'm going to explain it to you.

What is a Canon event?

What does this mean?

I know, because I just watched Spider-Man

across the Spider-Verse with my kids.

And side note, it's excellent, just like the first one.

But it's extremely complicated.

Like, I don't know why kids' movies these days...

Well, not kids' movies, but superhero movies.

They are so complicated.

Like, just stop with all that.

But anyway, I reckon I can explain a Canon event pretty easily.

There are lots of think-pieces popping up everywhere about it.

It's something that happens in your life that is so pivotal,

so essential to who you are,

that even if there were 45 other versions of your life,

because in these kind of movies,

there are always lots of different universes,

so there's a Mia Friedman here on Earth right now,

is a media mogul.

But over in Universe 45,

Mia Friedman might be an evil supervillain,

or she might be a super successful fashion designer,

or she might be a trombone player in a band.

I mean, who knows, right?

So, is it like sliding doors?

Yes, it's very like sliding doors, right?

Because that's a pop-cultural reference, I understand.

The Gwyneth Paltrow movie from the 90s.

Because the most important thing about that

is that she did end up with two different haircuts.

They're short and they're long.

And if Mia was living in lots of different universes,

she would have a lot of different haircuts,

whereas Claire and I would probably have the same haircut

no matter which universe.

I still don't understand.

The idea is, is there are some things that happen in your life

that have been so pivotal in making you who you are.

There might be one thing that is every bit of your personality

that happens.

So in the Spider-Verse example, right?

Every single Spider-Man movie, every single Spider-Man ever,

someone close to him has to die

for him to understand the weight of being Spider-Man.

And if anyone intervenes and stops that from happening,

Spider-Man doesn't exist.

So it has to happen, right?

In creative works, it's like,

is it part of the canon?

Is it essential to the plot?

Is it essential to the storyline?

Think of it like that.

It's something that is absolutely essential

to the plot of your life.

So on TikTok, everyone's posting canon events

and some of them are really silly.

So they don't have to be heavy.

So on TikTok, you'll see things like,

when you see a young girl with beautiful brunette thick hair

going to get a few blonde highlights

and then they put in brackets,

couldn't interfere, it's a canon event.

So does it mean like she needs to go through this?

This needs to happen.

You have to go through it.

For her to be who she is.

It's something you have to go through

or that has to happen for you to be you.

So for example, I was thinking about mine.

I reckon there would have been a few in my life,

but probably the really pivotal canon event

that has to be in my main character storyline

was when I was 19, that I left Manchester

to go and study journalism.

I'm putting in inverted commas, study journalism in London.

Every single thing that has happened to me in my life

since then is a result of that decision.

If I had not have made that decision,

if I'd have got knocked back from that college,

if I'd have decided I didn't want to leave my teenage boyfriend,

which I very nearly did decide I didn't want to do that,

I would never have had the career I had,

met a lot of Australians, moved to Australia,

met my partner, had my children, met you lot,

written a book, that decision at 19

is the canon event of my life most likely.

Now do you get it?

So it's like if that hadn't happened,

or if there was a story written about your life

that didn't include that,

it would miss the fundamental essence of who you are.

I wouldn't be who I am.

Yes, without that event.

Wouldn't you then just say,

like going to the barbecue where I met my partner,

or getting pregnant and having my child?

No.

The condom breaking.

No, see for Spider-Man,

I think the fact that it is having somebody close to him die,

being the thing that spurs him on to actually be Spider-Man.

There are all sorts of little things that happens.

It's even, correct me if I'm wrong Holly,

but it's even who dies?

Yes, so it's got to be someone close to him.

So in a Spider-Man movie, it's always either his uncle,

his auntie, his dad, his girlfriend, someone has to die.

And so the whole reason everyone's talking about this

is in this version of the movie, he wants to stop that.

He's like, I don't want my dad to die.

And everyone's like, he has to.

Because otherwise you don't get to be him.

It has to.

What's your kind of event, Claire?

I guess it's kind of like Harry Potter,

where it's like you can't take away Voldemort.

And it's kind of at the very end of that series,

he realizes that by killing Voldemort,

he's killing a part of himself because who he is

has been completely determined by Voldemort.

So a canon event is not necessarily good or bad.

It's kind of agnostic.

It's just a thing.

So the reason all those funny things on Tik Tok are like a haircut

or the relationship you have after your big breakup or whatever,

and then they use that tagline of,

can't interfere, canon event is like...

Clever and funny.

What's yours, Claire?

My first response to this, because I didn't understand it,

or it's one of those things you think you understand it

and then Holly explains it.

And I'm like, wait, wait, that made it more complicated.

But I think I understand it.

And I think my canon event,

or the first canon event is being born a twin.

100%.

Like I think everything changes without that.

Can't interrupt that embryo splitting.

Can't interrupt.

If that hadn't have happened,

if whatever magic happened inside your mother at that moment,

if that hadn't have happened, you would not be you.

And there's no way to picture my life without a twin sister.

I also think another canon event might have been meeting Rory at 17.

It feels like something that was always going to happen

and needed to happen.

And my story isn't mine without that.

It's sort of like you don't know where the story goes

if that doesn't happen.

Like kind of like yours, Holly, at a pivotal moment,

it's like, do I just spend the rest of my life in Manchester

if that doesn't happen?

What does your gut instinct tell you is your canon event

and then will tell you if you're wrong or right?

I've just jumped around my whole life trying to land on a canon event

and I think I don't really understand it.

But I guess maybe where I sort of have stopped

is having an emotionally abusive relationship in my early 20s

because it sort of recalibrated what I was looking for in a partner

which meant that I was open to meeting Jason

which then dictated the rest of my life,

everything from the business to our children to, you know, everything.

But then also, I lost a baby to Jason halfway through that pregnancy

that would have been my second child.

Had that baby been born, our marriage probably, I don't know.

Well, then I wouldn't have had my two kids that I've got after.

I don't know. I don't know.

I'm confused still a bit about canon events.

No, you've got it. You've got it. That's exactly it.

Really?

Like it's things that happen in your life.

Your story doesn't go on like in the same direction

if it didn't happen.

And you might not think it was a good thing

because the whole premise of this particular example

and the Spider-Man thing is the guy's like, the Spider-Man guy,

is like, well, I'm going to go back and save my dad.

I don't want my dad to die.

And they're like, no, no, no, you can't do that

because then everything falls apart.

So it's that idea of the thing that happened in your life

that had to happen, which sounds callous

because no one just wants terrible things to happen,

but it had to happen for your story to go where it's gone.

It's sort of like the butterfly effect,

that movie with Ashton Kutcha

where he keeps going back and trying to stop things from happening,

but it makes it worse

because certain things needed to happen

in order for things to get better.

Ben, can't you just say that of everything?

Well, that's the question.

People on TikTok are doing that.

That's why they're talking about highlights

and bad boyfriends and, you know, like that's why.

Can't interfere, canon event.

And that's what the butterfly effect is

that like a butterfly bats its wings in the Amazon

and that changes the course of everyone's lives or something.

But I think with your...

Like I often think if I didn't have sex

at a particular moment,

I wouldn't have that particular child.

Yes.

Yes.

Isn't that weird?

Yeah.

That's so weird.

And I often look at if you've ever adopted a dog

or even if you haven't adopted a dog,

any pet that comes into your life,

you look at it and you love it so much and you go,

this could so easily not have been you with me.

Could I have loved another dog this much?

Yeah.

And where would you have lived?

Yeah.

Because you still would have existed,

but who would you have lived with?

Oh, my God.

And how could you have lived without me?

There's simply no way.

Out Louders, if you do understand what a canon event is

after this very enlightening and straightforward discussion,

tell us what it is.

We're going to go in the Out Louders Facebook group

and find out a raft of canon events from women's lives.

If you want to make Mum Mia Out Loud

part of your routine five days a week,

we release segments on Tuesdays and Thursdays

just for Mum Mia subscribers.

To get full access, follow the link in the show notes

and a big thank you to all our current subscribers.

A recent article in the Atlantic called

There's No Shame in Flaking, Embrace Chaos, Don't Show Up

by Ian Bogost has us all debating whether flaking

is actually an important and healthy social tool.

The article opens with an anecdote

about the writer's former colleague Rocco.

Rocco was incredibly reliable to the point of being neurotic

and everyone kind of wanted Rocco to lighten up a little.

Then one day, he just didn't show up to a scheduled meeting.

When he eventually did appear, he was smiling from ear to ear.

I flaked, he said. I just flaked.

Did he apologise? No.

Did he have any actual excuse? Absolutely not.

He simply flaked because sometimes we all flake

and maybe there are times that's worth celebrating.

Now, of course, there are rules around flaking.

A lot of them are based on instinct.

You flake too much, you become a flake.

That is not a good thing.

You flake in the wrong circumstances,

the night before a big presentation,

just before a one-on-one dinner.

Your wedding? Before your wedding and that's bad.

It could become a canon event. Exactly.

The author of this article writes,

One can flake only if having done so will injure no one

more than it benefits you and that's important.

I have this argument with a girlfriend all the time.

So she is whatever the opposite of a flaker is, right?

She's the anti-flake.

And I have these fights with her because she's like,

I have to go and I'm like, no one will care if you go.

But if you don't go,

your life will be immeasurably better.

Yes. Like it will make such a difference in your life

to not go, but it really won't make a difference.

The meeting Rocco missed, for example.

No one can remember what it was about.

The stakes below, he knew if he was going to flake,

that was the occasion to do it.

Can I ask about the definition of flaking?

Am I right to understand that it's not about forgetting,

it's about knowing and just not turning up?

Absolutely correct.

And what it's about is actually not having an excuse.

Not having an excuse.

Can you just, if you meant to be at dinner on that night,

can you just go, I'm not feeling it?

And is that still a flake?

Or do you have to just literally not show up?

That's a flake.

That's a flake.

So the author explains,

one must refuse to investigate a flake's rationale.

The reason behind a true flake need not be known.

The flake is to recognize that the vastness of the universe

and the many forces that work within it

cannot always be unpacked like a suitcase.

We're very deep today.

This is very spider-verse.

I love this.

Holly, when was the last time you flaked?

One of the things I was thinking about and I was thinking about this

is that flaking doesn't matter to you

until you're the one with the skin in the game.

Mia, so you know what you said before about no one cares if you go?

If it's your event, they care a lot.

Like if I'm organizing, like I've had like book events, right?

If everybody wakes up and goes, I don't want to go,

then I'm in an empty room.

Oh, I see.

And I care a great deal.

If I'm having a birthday party for my son

and everybody wakes up and goes, it's raining, flaking,

then I've got a kid who we're going to have to throw

one of those viral lonely kid parties for.

So, Holly, you're saying that there's a collective element to it as well.

So an individual act of flaking might not have an impact

if everyone's flaking.

Well, my point is, is that it does have an impact.

You're wrong in that idea of like,

it doesn't make any difference whether you go or not.

It makes a big difference whether you go or not.

And you only notice that when it's you

who's asking people to do something.

Do you know what I mean?

Like all of us, we're selfish and we go,

oh, I don't really want to go to that party.

I'm tired, whatever.

She won't care, right?

If it's our party and our best friend doesn't want to come

because it's raining, it matters a lot.

Do you know what I mean?

So I think you've got to have 360 perspective on flaking.

I'm not a flake, but I hate to admit it.

I'm a flake in certain circumstances.

I flake a lot.

Much more in social life than work always.

And I don't really like to admit what that says.

Do you know what I mean?

I flake parent things all the time.

You know that, right?

Like there's an event at the school today

and I know all the non flaky parents are there

with their trays of baked goods in there.

Everything's ready.

And I'm like, I'm totally going to do that thing.

I'm going to do it.

I'm going to do it.

Oh, I can't do it.

You know, like I flake a lot on that kind of thing.

I do too.

I don't like what it says about me.

I either embrace it or I fight it.

I've only got two modes.

So my natural tendency is to embrace it.

And I do flake a lot because I find that as you get older,

you know yourself better because I think sometimes flaking is

about when you've accepted an invitation to do something that

you don't want to do, or you know that you're not up to doing,

but you accept it because it's easier in that moment

not to disappoint someone.

And so then you end up going down the flake route,

which is worse.

But I started saying to myself a little while ago,

a bit like what you're saying,

whole turn up, show up, show up for the people that you love.

Like for example, there was a funeral last week that I went to

and I didn't know the person,

but I used to be very close friends with someone close to the

person who died.

Literally no one would have noticed if I wasn't there,

but I was like, show up, you know.

So there are times when I know it will make a difference that

I have to fight my tendency to flake,

but I often don't commit to things in the first place.

So I avoid the flaking.

I've got much better at saying no to begin with.

I remember noticing this years ago,

there is something to be said for the quality of the people

who don't flake.

They're brilliant people.

The people who turn up no matter what.

And I think this idea of almost glorifying flaking,

a funeral is such an interesting idea because so often,

well, it's not about me.

Nobody will notice if I'm there.

No one will notice if I'm there.

It matters.

It just does.

It matters to the people there, how many people show up,

who there is.

Like a hug from somebody means the world.

But make no mistake, I've flaked on funerals before

and I've regretted them.

I always remind myself you never regret going to a funeral.

I mean, not that you enjoy it,

but there are funerals that I really regret that I didn't go to

to this day.

I think we're all, including me, flaking too much.

And I think this whole disconnection thing that's growing

and growing socially means we feel we have no obligation

to each other.

100%.

I reckon COVID enhanced flaking culture

because we realised everything can be cancelled last minute

and the world doesn't fall apart.

But if everything is an option from social commitments

to a day in the office to a deadline,

I think that fucks with our heads.

And I flaked on Monday night.

I had a dinner.

It's flaking, but I'm the person who rattles off 5,000 excuses.

And they were all true, but I feel really bad.

And I'm talking to my psychologist at the moment about flaking

because I think there's something really scary

about not being able to stick to your word.

Like, keep promises to yourself and other people.

And in one of our recent appointments,

she made me cancel a social event in front of her

and sit with the fact that the people I was cancelling on

were probably pissed,

but that it was ultimately a better outcome

than flaking 20 minutes before.

Yes, 100%.

I'm going to go back to an episode from last week

where you and I had an argument,

which a lot of our letters have misinterpreted,

when I shouted at you about weak language.

Oh, yes, yes, yes.

And everyone was like, oh, me is so horrible to Claire.

And it's a power imbalance.

And because I said, I've experienced both sides of you.

It was sort of in two weeks.

And people misunderstood that.

And I meant to tell you afterwards,

the reason that I did that is that I've seen the toll it takes

on you when you use weak language

instead of saying how you feel about something.

So for example, I don't want to go or I'm too tired or whatever.

You'll just be like, oh, yeah.

I'll see the toll that takes on you.

So it actually came from a protective place.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Of like actually say what you feel.

And I think the solution is probably to get better

at being upfront and honest about what we will

and won't commit to.

And probably in the case of Rocco,

it would have been better for him to look at that meeting

and say, you know what, that's not a great use of my time

rather than.

That's a sort of language.

I also think that it was good that he just said,

I flaked because that's the other thing it's admitting it.

But to your point, Claire, about how our acceptance of flakiness

is what's wrong with the world.

I would agree to a large point.

And I think it started back when we started celebrating

introversion so much.

And we started being like, it's fine to never want to go anywhere.

And it's fine to just want to be on the couch every night.

And it's fine to say, oh, a canceled plan is my idea of heaven

because that's all true in the moment.

But when you pile all those little moments together,

what it leaves is a lot of people sitting on their couches

by themselves on their phones.

And that's when we see the loss of connection that I think

is what we're loving about a moment like the Matilda's

is that we're reconnected over something.

We should remember that it feels good to do things together.

And I think it means we forget that it's kind of normal

if you're about to go out and it's cold and it's raining.

It's kind of normal to think, oh, I kind of rather just jump in

the shower and jump into bed.

That's actually something a lot of people feel.

The idea of saying, no, actually, it's important to turn up

for my friends and I know I will feel better having gone.

That's something we need to remind ourselves of instead

of just bailing because the people who don't bail,

like they need a bloody pat on the back.

The non-flakers, people who never flake, need a bloody prize.

I have a recommendation from an Australian ladies'

startup, a little tiny small business run by a woman.

It's called Barmy Lip Balms, B-A-L-M-Y.

And it's jewellery like bracelets that have lip gloss in them.

It's hard to explain.

We'll put a link in the show notes.

But they're these really gorgeous bracelets in silver and gold

and some of them have got like an evil eye

and some of them are jeweled and some of them are just quite

really simple.

And so it looks on the outside just like a bracelet.

But then there's like, if you think about the mechanism of a

locket, the top of it flicks open and inside you have a lip balm.

So you've always got a lip balm with you.

This woman invented it because she was somewhere on a beach

and she was around a campfire and she needed a lip balm

and she's like, I've never got a lip balm with me.

You're looking at it now, Clare and me.

Oh my God, it's stunning.

Yeah, right.

Because kids have these in like rings and things,

but they're not cool.

No.

It's a stunning standalone piece of jewellery.

I would want it not knowing that it had the lip gloss.

I wear it even when I'm not using the lip balm.

And what's even cooler is that it's got a magnet.

So you can put in just a normal one or there's like tinted ones.

So you can change out the lip balm depending on whether you just

want a different color, which is so good for the environment.

Oh, it's such a great, great idea.

So the website's getbarmie.com B-A-L-M-Y

and they're completely natural ingredients

and totally toxin and preservative free

and just a little Terrigal New South Wales local lady startup.

I'm obsessed with anything that makes it easier

to leave the house without a bag.

My favorite thing is leaving the house just with my phone.

Yes.

And the only thing I'd sometimes need my bag for

is something like lip gloss and the idea of having,

sorry, I've gone down a rabbit hole.

These are amazing.

They're around like 50 or 60 bucks.

But you'll have them for like a long time.

When you think of how many lip balms you lose, highly recommend.

If you're looking for something else to listen to,

we did an Ask Us Anything subscriber episode this week

and it was great.

We talked about Mia's grandma experience and how it's going.

I got very honest about how my move to the country has been going.

If you want to listen to that, there's a link in the show notes.

And if you want to send us a question for the next,

Ask Me Anything that we do,

email us at outloudatmamaMia.com.au.

Thank you for listening to Australia's number one

news and pop culture show.

This episode is produced by Suzanne Amakin

and Tali Blackman.

The executive producer is Tulissa Bazaz

and there's been audio production by Leah Porges.

Bye.

Shout out to any Mamma Mia subscribers listening.

If you love the show and want to support us as well,

subscribing to Mamma Mia is the very best way to do so.

There is a link in the episode description.

Machine-generated transcript that may contain inaccuracies.