Between Two Beers Podcast: David Galbraith: The ghost in the machine

On this episode of Between Two Bears, we talk to David Galbraith.

David is a world-renowned mind coach who specializes in performance psychology and

sport and business.

A former clinical psychologist for over 20 years, David is a mind coach to Lisa Carrington

Sarah Walker and Laura Langman, the performance psychologist for the Japanese rugby team,

the mind coach for the All Black Sevens team and was the chiefs for 11 years when they

won back-to-back super rugby titles.

In this episode we talk about being the ghost in the machine, the difference between good

and elite coaches, the accident his then two-year-old daughter had which changed his outlook on

parenting and his career, why Wayne Smith heckled him when they first met, life lessons

from working in Japan and why expressing your true self leads to a happier life.

David is super highly regarded in New Zealand sport circles.

He talks the talk but he also walks the walk which is why he gets so much respect.

He works with so many top athletes in New Zealand and around the world and has such a

thoughtful unique outlook on life.

Listen on iHeart or review your podcast from or watch the video on YouTube.

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a month.

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This episode was brought to you from the export beer garden studio.

Enjoy.

David Gilbrath, welcome to Between 2 Bears.

Yeah, work it.

Work it, love the title.

Have you ever heard the term ambassador before David?

No.

So Seamus claims to have coined it.

I did coin it.

I did coin it.

I like it.

And it represents someone who's proud to represent Hamilton and be from Hamilton and every guest

we have we're in here in the Hamilton export beer garden studio this morning.

Yeah, we ask them are you proud to represent Hamilton would you would you like to be a

ambassador with us?

Yeah, absolutely.

There's a lot that's said about Hamilton for sure and over the years I've really struggled

with that conversation with people because I think they obviously exist in a certain

level that they don't understand where the other levels are and it feels like when we

start to talk about Hamilton like that it's like yeah, certain people get it and lots

don't.

A hundred percent.

That's it.

It gets such a bad rap.

Yeah, totally.

I had a hat made for one thing that I did this thing on TV recently and I had a ambassador

hat made and it got good traction.

It got good traction.

So I think there's a movement.

I think it's happening.

I think it's presidential material too.

Yeah, presidential club.

Have you ever been on a committee?

But you split your time now, part Hamilton, part out in Maricopa.

Yeah, I'd like to be out there more.

I've got a 16 year old who's still at school and in town so I'm sort of just taking care

of those fathering responsibilities and the way the plan works is there'll be less and

less but you know I've really enjoyed the 20 years here.

You know I guess there's lots of layers underneath how I ended up here but in fact I did end

up here and I've been here that long.

It's been a special ride and it's been a location that's created huge opportunities I don't

think would have happened anywhere else so I will spend more and more time out in the

coast because we'll look after my mum and dad and you know they have 76, 77 now so they

start to get to that point where they're recognising their own age and I think you know you get

to that stage where at 70 you're still working, you can kick ass, 75, 76 it starts to hit

you up the arse I think and then by 80 you're like oh yeah okay so I'm just mindful of that

developmental responsibility shift from being a dad to being a son again so with that in

mind I'll be out there probably next year more than I am in Hamilton and beyond so Hamilton's

been it's been a hell of a ride actually yeah.

Yeah we're really excited about unpacking this hell of a ride, the way we do things

between two beers we tell the audience how we know the guests so Shay how do you know

David?

Well you're a bit of an enigma to be honest, you're a name that sometimes appears in newspaper

articles, you're spoken about in athlete circles and team circles and it's the first time to

have the pleasure to meet you.

We've got a mutual acquaintance in Andrew Miller who's a good friend of mine and in

researching the pod and researching the app your styles are quite similar in terms of

the way you deliver your messages which makes me excited about where we're going to get

to today so there's an indirect connection I guess between us but Stevie how do you fit

into this one?

Yeah David's name has come up for regular listeners, you would have heard it over and

over again by some of the athletes we've had on the show so he's always been a figure

of intrigue but then a few weeks ago we had Lisa Counten on the show and at the end of

every episode we asked guests to recommend three people that they think would make good

future guests and she just gave us one and it was your name and so I was like wow okay

we need to do this ASAP so so happy you're here, we've reached out to a bunch of contacts

and friends and family just to get a bit of a gauge on who you are and your story and

I was lucky enough to connect with Jay Carter, now Jay is a national New Zealand golf coach

and someone you've co-hosted the Talking Performance podcast with and he sent me this which I'm

just going to read out, he said the first time I met him was in maybe 2008 and we had

him come into a national camp and the only time he could do was 9.30pm, I thought who

schedules a sports site for 9.30pm, this will surely put us to sleep.

Anyway this tall lanky hairy dude walks in and sits down at the front of the room, waits

for an appropriate amount of awkward silence and sits back and says, I might say some things

tonight that you don't like, insert another awkward pause and I couldn't give a shit,

followed by a billowing laugh and I might say some things that you do like and guess

what, I couldn't give a shit either, from that moment he had me and everyone else in

the room to the point where we had to cut the session just before midnight so we could

get back to the Tron.

One thing I love about him is he is the ghost in the machine, he influences so many people

and works with so many top athletes and teams, not just here in New Zealand either and the

best bit about it, nobody knows, he's not on Instagram posting about who he works with,

he is just the ghost in the machine.

So amazing words from Jay, thank you so much for that but I wondered how you thought about

the term ghost in the machine, that is obviously by design, do you like that?

Yeah absolutely, in essence when we start to talk about, I guess we will go today with

some thought into what that might shape up like, I guess automatically you're starting

to get an idea about how my philosophies and principles work and what the underlying goal

is to coaching and my own philosophy is that it's no different than parenting your children

and the way that I've raised my two daughters, people often ask me how did you raise your

daughters and I mean well, like boys because I'm a guy and I have no idea about what it's

like to be a woman but in line with that I always thought that the way to do good parenting

is to think about them being 18 years old, standing in Auckland at National Departures

as they go through the gate, as the passenger and you're left as a civilian on the side

waving goodbye, so alright so my job is to get them ready to go out that gate thinking

that their ticket could be to Columbia and then I'm alright, there's some real opportunities

in Columbia so I've got to make sure that they're able to make some informed decisions

about the way they want to live their lives and straight away you can see the paradigm

behind good parenting and get to that point as you're always available but you understand

that you're not with them and you don't want them to think what will Dad do or what would

Dad think I should do, you don't want them to think about you at all in that moment and

make their own decisions and operate off their own song sheet with a real freedom and authenticity

so in that sense if you think about sport it's no different, you want them to get to

a point where in that moment they are fully the unique individual self in the context

of the moment, living that moment, not needing to take a photo and chuck it on Instagram or

show it to somebody that was pretty cool but just a little for its own sake and so if you

go okay that's our objective then coaching is about redundancy from a guardianship framework

not interdependency or codependency from ego and so I just operate that the whole time

as you know understanding that 18 years old going out the airport wanting to embrace the

world and just step into it and then that governs how I operate within spaces so supporting

the head coaches, overseeing four coaches, same conversations, setting up start of campaigns,

what's the picks they're on, season their mind for what this is going to be about and

where we're going to get, with an individual athlete it's the same thing, what's our relationship

going to be, how's that going to look, what do you need him, what I think you need, what's

your goal, what's my goal, so all those conversations for me I can see probably what Jay's saying

but you can see how it's not an intention to be that ghost thing but certainly within

the framework of my own mind it's about well true guardianship is creating a space where

those that come underneath will become your master real soon and then you step back and

let them do their thing so they can then support someone else to come through and then you'll

be back supporting the next one to come through so yeah I'm always really mindful that it's

never abandonment, it's a guardianship framework rather than a leadership or maybe even a professional

framework in that sense of what a psychologist might be or a physio might be or a nutritionist

might be, whatever the job description is it's the developmental responsibilities enormous

unless you're mindful of it I feel that often people's egos are well and truly in the way

there's nothing wrong with the ego but I guess the insecurity based egos aren't aware of

the limelight that they're taking so in my mind it's great to hear that because it's

like the third person feedback you get about you know what sort of parent is your daddy's

weirdest guy I've ever met and that's for me again you know that's cool I like that

because that's certainly been the objective.

It's amazing to me we had a recent guest Dave Wood who works in a similar space with

very high profile athletes and again the authenticity of him and the low profile and not trying

to promote himself anyway is just so magnetic to these guys because their use I guess they're

these world where everyone's trying to you know use them to further their own self in

some way so when you get that authenticity it's really great.

He'll be right back after this short break.

There will also be people that have stumbled into this podcast who don't know who you

are so I'm just going to paint a bit of a picture and then we're going to go back to

the start.

So Dave is a dad, public speaker, writer, former psychologist, community man, environmentalist

and mentor but he specialises in performance psychology and sporting business arenas.

Former clinical psychologist for 20 plus years, Olympic performance psychologist for

high performance New Zealand, currently in his fourth Olympic game cycle, mind coach

to Lisa Carrington, Sarah Walker, Laura Langman and others, mind coach for the All Black Sevens,

Chief Super Rugby team, performance psychologist to Japan's national team, worked with the

brave blossoms of the 2019 Rugby World Cup and the author of the book Unleashing Greatness.

The reason that I'm listing all of these things is because I love hearing from guests who

have these incredibly accomplished CVs and then hearing about their hard start.

You applied, was it 15 times, 15 times to get into psychology and I wondered what drove

you, why did you persevere, why did you keep going back because a lot of people that got

knocked down one, two, three times, they wouldn't keep getting back up.

So what was it about you that drove that?

There's a couple of answers to that.

One, the first one's really superficial and the second one's really deep because I did

my, I went to Christchurch to Canterbury Uni because I was a pretty good footy player.

This is a really opening theme I guess of why I now do what I do but I was better than

good but I was shit on the field and I thought oh yeah my man wanted me to be an All Black

like that was really clear and I thought well if I'm any good as a footy player you're

going to make it in Canterbury because Canterbury, as long as we can remember, has always been

really dominant.

What's the time stamp of this for us?

2000, sorry, yeah, what do you mean?

1991, yeah, 1991.

I took a year off and worked in the freezes at the Freezing Works and did a season sharing

sheep, made some coin and then went to uni the next year, I played some footy and then

went to Canterbury the next year and got my ass handed to me, if rugby was, just got

batted up and sent home, sorry Dad, I'm actually not that good, so I finished down there three

years at Psychology and I remember staying in Islam Campus after my last exam, it was

a real nice day and I just remember sitting in the sun going oh now what, I knew I'd probably

end up with like a C or a C minus average because my grades, you know, you have some

idea and I'd work my ass off, like I'd work real hard and just, you know, I look back

now and understand what that was about, so ended up with a C minus and I thought, alright,

let's just take a moment, probably a good moment to actually think about what's my main

motivation of life, I thought, hmm, man, I'd love a hot wife and then Psychology obviously,

you know, if you never know Psychology, the woman in Psychology is usually pretty good,

lovely ladies, well I'd better stay in Psychology as long as I could, I did learn that in one

of the relationships, the studying relationships and those sorts of things, there's a couple

of principles to follow which is one's proximity and one's similarity, so there are two variables

that if you've got those ticked, your relationship could end up quite good, so I've got to keep

doing Psychology because he's a similarity and proximity is I've got to stay in the

labs with him, so I ended up staying and then I just started applying then, I started applying

off the back of my, at that point, so first applying, you've got to do your Masters first

and then I started applying to all the Unis to do my Masters, but Massey and Parley was

the only place that would take me to do Psychology and Masters in Psychology, so I trucked off

to Massey and then got through my first year and got my grades, it'd be better, you got

them better and then just started applying and so that's 1, 2, 3, so there's five Unis

in New Zealand that do that specialised clinical training and they take, well I'm not sure

what they're doing now, but they take 80 years and so I just applied to all five every year

for three years.

Was it eight a year or eighty?

No, eight.

Oh shit.

So it was actually the eight and then the fifteenth time I talked about before, so then I got

on but then, so the superficial reason was I was...

There's some dry years then if you're going every year and you're still chasing that hot

wife.

Yeah, I told you, I sound like Brad Pitt, but I don't look like him, I don't even sound

like him and then just a long story short I ended up getting into Auckland on the fifteenth

time, got an interview, that interview went great and got in and then I started working

pretty quickly with, well you'll know, Nigel Ladder, so again anything about, I just can't

say enough about the people that I've had opportunities to spend time with and so that

list of things that have been ticked off is really a result of them and I'm incredibly,

you know, because I don't like doing these things but for me it's also a way of saying

thanks to the people that they know who they were and so you think about that, your career

starts off with Nigel and I spent four years with him and Ian Lambie, so there's another

great man that he and I had a great relationship, a raw and open, we'd have some head banging

because he's always really good at making you get to the point, so I really treasured

time with him, so we were working with some of New Zealand's most serious adolescent

and adult sexual offenders and then there's a lovely lady, Linda, of course, who passed

away a couple of years ago, who was my supervisor in that and we were working with offenders

who also had intellectual struggles or what they used to call ID and development delayed,

working people so they would come in at 18, 19, really serious offenders but their brains

are seven year olds and I just remember that work was really forming for me in the sense

of finding who I was and I guess where I've ended up as a direct result of those people

and working, you know, it's no irony that Nigel had, I think his first book was called

The Dark Lens and that's really apt to what we were doing and I remember sitting with

Lynne one day and we were talking about, you know, sharing the shit and talking about

life and stuff, which is often, you know, in that work you do, it's very dark and the

teams are really close and, you know, everything's on the table and we're just yelling about

our lives and I had some stuff going on, my 20s, mental health wise and she said, you

know, why do you reckon you ended up here and I went, didn't really know but it felt

right and so that work was a start up, so I'll get goose bumping out, talking about

it is that when we get to a point where we understand ourselves and that is always on

that line of terror, then just on the other side is deep awareness and clarity and then,

you know, a lot of people spend their life trying to find their purpose and many don't

because that's the way they're trying to do it, my viewers, they tell us that you'll find

your purpose by trying to write on a piece of paper and reflect on it and do these 10

day meditation retreats and nothing against that, there's people that do that sort of

thing, but ironically you find your purpose inside out, not outside in and so the key

is if you can find yourself, you'll find your purpose and you end up finding yourself, you

have some integrity in that space through what you're spending your time doing and then

ironically what you are doing would have been what your purpose would be if you'd found

it externally somehow and then go okay I'm going to do that now, so if you can find yourself

purely internally then what you then do with your time through integrity then is your purpose

and I was just very lucky in that moment with those people, so you take those three people

around you as young, you know, 20, I was 26, 27, 28, maybe 26, 27, 28 was when I was working

between 9 and 30, so five years in that space.

You can't help but start to know who you are when you're working in the dark lands like

that with those quality people when we had four years psychodrama, we had to do psychodrama

for our practice, not me doing, so your psychodrama is you doing psychodrama, but we had to learn

psychodrama because that was our main mode of operating with the offenders or the young

men that were offending, so doing that and doing the work that we're doing with the people

that I was supporting then became clear for me that that was the purpose, so all of that

stuff to get to that moment, psychology was just a mere, you know, just a small part of

that it wasn't, you know, because a lot of people think they've got to do their qualifications

to get to do whatever they're doing, but the irony is I've probably learnt more from David

Gimmel if anyone reads him, and all his books were just people struggles really, just a

real way that he writes about the relationship between heroicism and cowardliness and relationships

and human struggle, and so I've probably learnt more ironically from Nigel and Lynn and Ian

and David Gimmel than I did at uni.

I'm hoping to jump in here because I want to sort of paint again the picture of how

you are, who you are today, which was different when you started at the beginning of your

career, and from what I understand there was an important focal moment where your daughter

had an accident and fell into some glass, and from what I understand and without telling

your story for you, that was a pivotal moment in the way you changed your parenting and

the way that perhaps shaped the rest of your career and life.

Yeah, I remember now, yeah, I can still see it, yeah, and certainly it's a fascinating

one now to look at that moment at two when she hit by the glass one time, I was smashed

it at two, maybe two years old, and she's 21 now, or 21 this year, so it's interesting

to look at the path I then took versus the path that I'd been on, or even my own upbringing,

because I guess my own upbringing was old school, and then there's this whole dilemma

now about our teenage stats and those sorts of things and just the way of our society

and what's underneath all of that, and so anyway at two when I was home, I was basically

home dadding at that point, I was only working a little bit early on and being dad in play

centre, because one of my colleagues said to me, it's when the children, first child

was born, I asked them what advice have you got for me as I start this journey, they said

man you need to relax, you need to go to play centre, take your kids to play centre and

run out of play, so I can't say enough about that institution that is play centre in New

Zealand and it's not supported enough, it should be supported way more than it is to

keep parents be able to take their children to a pre-school age base and play with them,

because there's 16 areas of play, a play centre and it's all child led, so you learn

to become an auxiliary in their play rather than directing it, and so I guess at two,

I was the director of the play and there were various standards that I had been brought

up on that I was applying to my two year old and that one particular moment highlighted

to me that I was operating from a paradigm which was unless you're perfect on Pist and

anything you do reflects on me as a parent and you will behave, and you will behave like

me even though you're only two, and so her moment when she smashed the glass with her

head, like honestly the glass doors, it's all still there, so I went with fresh putty

around it which is now a 20 year old putty, it's like 30 centimetres off the floor, so

incredibly low you look at it and was she even two, I wish I'd get so low, but it really

highlighted for me at that moment that I was trying to force everything, I was trying to

force my relationships, I was trying to force myself, I was doing some, you know obviously

you've heard about what I was doing at that time and everyone thought I was in a pretty

good space, but I reckon most people lie, oh how are you today, fine, bullshit, that

was me, looking good on the outside, creating some good qualifications, started a good career,

I always thought, you know I had some people, you know I thought some good things about

me so it was in, you know from the outside it looked pretty good, on the inside though

I reckon I was really struggling with having to be PB every day if you take a sports context

and then that's the pressure and the stress of the house need to be spotless, the lawns

need to be immaculate, everything in my life had to be perfect, one thing out of place

and I'm irritable, two things out of place and I'm popping, so I don't remember my oldest

winches at age being very happy, but no surprises there when she's living with a monster, like

I was never physically violent, but I reckon I was a pretty sour dad and she would have

felt probably at that point controlled, so that was that moment when I had that moment

of realisation to go, oh I think that's got something to do with me and then from that

moment I went right, let's, you know obviously this is shortened down into a conversation

but there was a lot of reflection at that point, even though I said before I don't think

much in those moments I do, and then I just went right, if that's got me that outcome

I'm going to then try and reverse something from that and do the opposite, so that, turn

your compass around and go the other way, and then that's where I made a real commitment

that slowing down, connecting, listening and play, really really important, like I'd learnt

that so many times but I really learnt that there, I think that's that saying, we get

back to the start to know ourselves for the first time, and we arrive back at the beginning

to know ourselves for the first time but just deeper, that was one of those moments, and

then just set out from that moment to work on really understanding parameters of how

we define success, because in that moment for me to be a good dad, success equals perfection,

and then I go to bed feeling like I'm a good dad, so you see you've got a success parameter

or rule I guess, and that, so then it was around, well if that's how I'm defining success

now but it gave me that, I better do something with that real quick, otherwise it's going

to give me that much later on and be problematic, and my children, it ended me, so the conversation

there which is often with athletes and teams, which is what's actually success, let's get

real clear about that, because if we don't get that clear, in the end it will undo us

and be shattering, and so that moment really led to a lot of thought and then how that

applies within the coaching space now, it's an absolute critical component of all the

coaching I do is that's a conversation, it's an understanding, and for a long time I need

to help support the space so that they keep coming back to that, and I use now like a

good metaphor, I quite like the metaphor, it's cake and icing, and it used to be hundreds

and thousands but millions and billions now, maybe trillions, I feel like it did, so back

then I was all about the icing, at some degree, what you see now was also there but deeper

down there's that real sense that the icing, icing, icing, icing, I remember my teenage

years at school being about that too, and then what that moment taught me is actually

the metaphor, you extend the cake and icing on, you go to a wedding, there's these beautiful

cakes at the reception, or cake, and again this is not coming on at any one's weddings

but usually it's a beautiful looking cake, stunning cake, and the first thing people

do when they get it is they cut off the marzipan, and then inside you've got this shitty bit

dry fruit cake, and I go well their society represented really quickly and clearly about

what have we got at the moment, we've got a society that is all about icing and looking

good, but not a lot of time is given to the baking of the cake, and so for me now it's

that we bake the cake, that's our responsibility, we will see whether it gets icing or not,

we will find that out when the whistle is blowing, whether we get to put icing on the

cake, and if we're really lucky you get a bit of walnut to sprinkle on top, or a cherry,

so the icing is the performance, the little embellishments on top of the podium or the

medal or the championship, but the cake is where it's at, so in the end we want to have,

you know like I grew up in a time when mum and dad were farm shepherds, mum was a nurse,

she wasn't practising as a nurse, dad was a shepherd, then he was a farm manager, so

we only got icing at Christmas and birthdays, but we were never short of good food and mum

got bake, she can still bake, and so the cakes were awesome, and so there it is, so I want

a good Russian chocolate cake, and then I want a bit of nice chocolate icing, a bit

of walnut on top of that would be quite nice, and a great regular roast coffee, and now

I've got the works, so that one moment with my daughter started a journey which I reckon

has become probably one of the most profound conversations I'll have with people now in

coaching, whether it's in sport or business, which is okay, let's have a conversation

about how you define success, talk me through that, and then in there you see people, that's

when they're like, that starts to go deep, because that definition of success is the

core belief, it's the core belief of who they are as a person, and so you start to get really

into it when you look at that one.

We'll be right back after this short break.

Yeah I'm keen to move into that space now, at the start we talked about finding your

fears and walking towards that, when these elite athletes come to you or teams or you're

working with, do you have a process for that first session, is it you're finding out how

they define success, is it you find what their fears are, or does it differ, is it so unique

to the situation or the person you're dealing with?

Yeah absolutely, there is a way, and again I don't want anyone to think that I'm saying

this is the only way, this is just the way that I've sort of evolved over the years,

and again it's very similar, I guess when you talk to a lot of people about the process

they go through to coach and support someone in I guess the psychology space, and so first

and foremost it's, you know there's, I have a framework I follow, that's my framework,

we will use or I'll use that framework as a shared connection to help them understand

what our work will maybe look like if they want to work with me, and then it becomes

theirs, and then they shape it, their language, their way, but I'm still holding it to a scaffolding

which is really important process wise, and you know I'm really clear with people that

first conversation is about whether I want to work with them and they want to work with

me, so we make sure that gets ticked off first because this might not be, you know some people,

you know I'd always do feedback sheets with group sessions, so group session if I do a

group talk they then get an email with a feedback for me to give me feedback on they like it

not like it etc etc, and it's not unusual for me to have them want the same talk, someone

say 10 out of 10, amazing, and someone to go 1 out of 10, terrible.

We have that with some of our podcast episodes, and that's just recognising that people have

a different, I guess a different culture when it comes to talking about themselves and

life, and you know I guess let's full stop that, and so you know first box as I look

at connection, then for me really quickly I want to do some foundational work which is

I want to understand why they are here, so I'm asking them what's their goal, because

I want to hear what their goal is, and then I want to show them what I think my goal is

for them, so they'll come and say usually an outcome based goal, and I never want to

miss that, because that's important too, and I never want to be dismissive of it, because

icing does make the cake, and I just said what the perfect context was, so I love icing

too, and then I'll take that aside, and then usually at that point I'll sing at them, so

I'll sing the ants go march, and that's my favourite song, because I'll show you my

goal for you. So I rip into that, and they're like, so you just see them and they're like

what the hell. I thought it was when the saints go marching in, and you'd got it wrong, and

I was too polite to correct you going, I think you've got that wrong DG, I'm pretty sure

it's the saints go marching in. People have taken off that tune. I guess you'll be working

with Steven and not me now. Yeah, a lot of people like to sing whatever they choose to

after that, but essentially what I'm showing them in that moment, that my goal for them

is the cake, and that's, I have an equation for that, which is identity times courage

equals authenticity, and so I want them to take their handbrake off, and I want them

to be themselves, and I want them to step into the moment, and they're choosing to be

in that moment, and to be, well I do a decibel meeting, reading on that as well with teams

and individuals, so I have a layer which is, well if you're really serious about being

new, you should hit this decibel meter, reading, because to get that you have to let go, so

you can see there's the edge of the plane, and so the first bit is really getting clear

on the goal, making sure that that conversation is about cake and icing, and that our time

together is about having a beautiful cake and an icing, and walnuts and a good coffee,

so that's really the starting point, is now I've got some alignment about our work, so

they still feel they're going to get, at that point they're like, yeah sweet, I'll bake

the cake to get the icing, they don't know that I'm going to work with them too, is

getting to a point where, because a lot of people ask me when I'm working with them,

oh that's just through conversation, oh what's the end picture for you, because I talk about

the word picture a lot of people, what's your picture, and I go, oh my picture's,

maybe take a rugby one, I'll get asked as part of that alignment pre-season, getting

our campaign really clear, what our picture is, and I'll say, oh my picture is playing

Crusaders at home, full house, we're playing Unreal, the coaches and management and players

get together up back at Rooker, coaches you do your spell, do your thing, and then we

all go downstairs and line up outside the bus, and as the players come past we give

them a hug, tell them we love them, go guard, go live it up, and then the doctor and the

manager hop on the bus to the physio, and that's it, doors close, bus comes into the

stadium, coaches go back upstairs, crack a wakato draft, sit down from the big screen

and turn the tally on to watch the footy, bus arrives, players hop off, go and do their

thing, go to warm up, Crusaders are out, more back then it was Blackadder, out in the field

with whoever, and they're looking up to the coaches, box on the chief's side, it's dark,

and the coach's like, oh yeah good DJ, yeah nice, but you can see there for me as we

bake that cake, our job's done, they now know to go and see whether they can ice it or not,

and so for me in that moment, even extension of that maybe would be, we all go back upstairs

and have a beer and forget the final, and then we've gone on, actually we've realised

that the real purpose is bake the cake, obviously you know, you're always going to go and compete

because people are competitive and that's why we do it, but it's a hell of an irony that

you think you can evolve so far that in the end, you don't want the car, you don't want

the house, you don't want the social reputation, you don't want the gold medal, you want none

of those things because you know as soon as you've got those, that becomes people's focal

point and now they've lost you, and most people get lost in that, so the full evolution where

the framework goes is to get to a point where, whether they get the icing or the walnut

or not, becomes absolutely at peace with them, which in another instance of an extension

is at that point, if they were to die, their last thought would be at peace, so the framework

is all about generating that and that's where the identity times of courage equals authenticity,

the authenticity is to be ourself in a real pure sense because that word's key and the

Japanese, and this has changed a little bit since the 15, 1600s because part of my work

was just thinking about themes and so clearly you're going to look at Samurai history and

the greatest Samurai is Mimoto Musashi and there's another one, so this term isn't Musashi

so if people are going to look up, they'll probably find Musashi but it's not his term

and it's in a diary of one of the other greats and it was Kuzumonor K-U-E-C-M-O-N-O and it's

English, literal English translations, Quintessential Wido and I just love that, I like that, that's

a powerful language, so you go identity times courage equals Wido and then I go okay so

we take this step further, you're walking through an Urupaa, you come to a bit of granite

and it's got Tom Jones in 1919, let's say 2022 and then underneath it's got loving father

of, no I'm a solely missed husband of Jan, I'm a solely missed dad of let's say six kids

and I'm like oh yeah and the next one's a similar sort of story and the next one's a

similar sort of story and then you come to this next one and that's Tom Smith, 1918,

2018, fucking weirdo, double take, it's exactly a good stop and the double take would be that

must have been some life because we understand straight away his last word to eternity is

you know he's not struggling to write his epilogue in a way that's, you know, perfect.

I've got a feeling I know what's going to be on your tombstone.

And so it's, if people are listening to that and they look at what's the framework, I then

go to work to help them fulfil the identity times courage equals authenticity because

in the end when they come to compete, it's their turn in their ancestry line to be all

they are and all they've been given because the cake is effort and in modern sport we

know what the effort is because GPS tells us.

So I know whether they've died or not and you see how now we build the metaphor on is

that in the end true success as you honour your ancestors, how you do that or you die,

full stop because when they observe that moment, their pride in you is not whether you win

or lose but it's how you fight.

And so that becomes the narrative and the dialogue that we have and then the journey

through the sessions is about insight, about understanding, about awareness raising and

then building a framework that's in their language and their understanding about who

they are as a person, what the intention is for that person to have integrity, what the

mindset or attitudes or values or whatever they end up calling them that sit underneath

that, that hold that integrity and then the action plan and then the action plan is, I

just call it the courage plan which is the recognition that this is a daily wake up,

you become conscious because the universe don't care what happened yesterday or we've

gots right now and so that integrity is the ultimate challenge in that moment, in that

now, in the next now and then all of a sudden they might be at a final, well your ancestors

in the universe are watching to see what the GPS data says and so now you can sort of see

the framework but that doesn't matter whether you're an athlete, a father, a business person,

whatever the performance is, it's always the same framework and so that framework then

helps people step through our work together so it doesn't become, I'm going to go and

see DJ and be entertained, I'm actually going to go and see him and he's going to ask me

to hold to this framework to show that I've got deeper since the last time and then I

will go away again and have to have integrity every day and come back and prove I've got

integrity and I'm really clear with all the people I work with is that your first task

is when we catch up is you have to prove you love what you're doing and love who you're

with because the father of those change, our work is now shifted, we are now about your

retiring or leaving.

This might lead in to my next question, just to stay in that rugby space, you have worked

with a number of the very best coaches New Zealand has produced, Wayne Smith and Gordon

Titchens and Dave Renie, what is the difference?

Is there a common trait that separates a good coach from a great coach from an elite coach?

Is there something with those elite coaches that they all share?

Yep, it's a funny one because we live in this era where it feels like there's a transition

happening between automation and earning the right and when I look at those three coaches

and again what I was saying before is you know you can't help but grow when you spend

time, a long time with those people and they're all very different, like you know you go

to the Wrens and Titch, goodness me you probably wouldn't get more of those three coaches,

all beautiful people and you know best of people but underneath it all the one variable

that they have is they're all the grizzly bear and people might, because you could chuck

Jamie into that mix as well, so you chuck Jamie in, so Jamie Wrens, Smithy and Titch,

you know number one value for them is loyalty, so everything about them is loyalty but there

is never any doubt that they're a head coach, full stop and I reckon that's the bit where

if we feel like we're in this era where there's conversations about what a head coach should

be like and what a culture should be like and how you do that in a way which is athlete

led, athlete centred and so there's a whole conversation in that which is really loaded

off I liken sports teams to families, that any family where things are going good is

there's a boss, whenever there's not a boss you've got a hell of a teenage period coming

where someone's all you're not going to be the boss, I'm going to be the boss, what

do you mean, could there be two, can mum and dad be the boss or does she have a boss?

Or is the mum or whoever's driving the car that day, it's a definitely mum and dad.

But one of them has to be the boss, you can't have two bosses?

No, I think in the family setting you can see how you have co-parents, so that needs

to be mum or dad, I think there needs to be some equality between dad and mum so in that

case it's a little bit different but as far as the children are concerned they're really

clear where their role and responsibility lies and depending on the age, I see a lot

of parents struggling with parenting because they're trying to give parenting responsibilities

or adult responsibilities to 15 year olds and I'm like yeah, 18 they're going to go

out the airport but that doesn't mean it's at 15 they're now responsible paying your

mortgage and running the house, they should be able to do lots of things by 15 to be ready

at 18 but at no point should you be loading on them your responsibilities and so if we

maybe take that role of parenting to mean mum and dad or dad and dad and mum or whatever

the combination is or mum or dad and in the team environment there's a hierarchy which

I reckon is reflective of a really healthy framework which is, let's say it's one head

coach, three assistant coaches, a leadership group, captain, management and players.

All three of those men that we've mentioned in Eddie Chuck Jamie in there, when they walk

in the room everyone knows that his coach has walked in but their head coach might walk

over and pick up a guitar and then start playing Bee Gees, right but they all still know and

he's not even running the session he's just in the back playing the music and the coach

comes up or a leader comes up or a player comes up because I'm always working within

the space and we all are often in our modern era too which I think should be helping people

be empowered but the one variable with those guys is when they walk in the atmosphere changes

and the other place you notice it is if they aren't in for the day and the assistant coach

now has the ship and you notice it boom straight away and the training numbers of the GPS data

and this is how you know whether the system's set up or we've got the right coaches coming

through that changes and all of a sudden you've got if you take that to a family environment

mum and dad aren't home parties on so that would be the one thing that for me that differentiates

between the great coaches the good coaches and maybe coaches who are good but they're

just lacking what they end up lacking I reckon is that one element they still may be a talk

coaching and all of those things and be great men and great ladies so there's nothing about

them as people and I've seen a lot of it is that there's nothing, this is not a conversation

about them who they are as a person or a good or not so good person but that one variable

is all of those men are really really comfortable when being in charge.

Is it right that the first time you met Wayne Smith he was calling you and doing some speech

and he sort of called you out within a minute of listening to what you were saying?

Yeah, you know it was a funny, it's a funny moment because at that stage sports psychology

and rugby was you know Gilbert was working with the Orblacks, Rod Corbyn was working

with Rowan, I think there might have been like two or three that were making money from

sport then and I worked with Hotupper at Cambridge for three years just for fun and then from

there I spoke with Rod Corbyn about getting some feedback sheets scored so we could look

at how they're always playing out in the club scene and then he spoke, he knew someone

in rugby and they were looking for someone to work with counties and North, Northland

rugby academies and so I jumped in and did that, it was the extension from Club Foote

and then that led to the coordinator at rugby in Wellington pulling together anyone at that

particular time trying to build a baseline for how we're going to be working in sport

and psychology with rugby and so I was invited as part of a group of five, let's say four

or five people to Wellington to talk about sports psychology, mental skills training

and specifically with rugby and the guy was Mike Chu so he was a huge part in influencing

that growth and he said oh I hear you've got a program that you're running with academies

and was called Killer Instinct Sports Psychology for Rugby, that's what was my first take

and he said would you present on Killer Instinct Sports Psychology, I went oh yeah absolutely

so anyway in Wellington and it was when they were down on the waterfront in the old building

and then downstairs in the big room with all of rugby's memorabilia and there's five of

us sitting around this little massive room but five of us were in the small table and

all the tables were set up and I was like that's a bit weird, anyway he goes oh yeah

David you'll turn, oh yeah Dave Hatfield has been for me, there's another name that's

he's been real influential in helping me to get there so there's another name, anyway

I'm up there and the door's open, I'm about to start, the door's open and all the super

rugby coaches come in so at the start of every pre-season they do that super rugby conference

so all four or five from each franchise or three or four from each franchise over here

and I'm like oh yeah let's just change things up and then Chui goes to me yeah there you

go carry on, I go oh sweet and I've got my first slide up and then the door's open again

and I'm walkshack dead interestingly and they sit basically front stage, you know things

have really changed now, tighten up my sphincter a little bit and ripped into it and then Smithy

just puts his hand up like this and I've spoken my first opening statement which I've given

a lot of thought to, I can't remember what it was, he put up his hand and I'm like yes

Smithy and he goes mate I don't know what the hell you're talking about, well that's

probably Shag's time isn't it, I don't know what you're talking about but I think you're

on the wrong planet and completely disagree and I'm like oh that's the first comment and

then I went thanks Smithy, I'll make a note of that and something like that, I just thanked

him for his comment and then I'd just carry it on and then Shag came up afterwards and

that's where Shag's tone and he goes I think we're spot on, I think that's exactly right

so that was my meeting, first time I've ever met Smithy and then Fozzie came over and said

I'll where are you from and I went Hamilton and he said I'll come in and have a chat to

the coaches up there when we're going over a coffee and then that was really started

with Fozzie and then he was super, super understanding because that was my first time I'd gone club

footy and then into super rugby and it's a hell of a machine and if it hadn't been him

I reckon in that first I was with him for three years and he really helped shape, he

gave me permission to get it wrong and the other thing that made that work is Liam Messam

was part of the Hotapu crew and so I knew him from out there and then I walked in from

my very first group meeting with the main team and Liam jumped up from the back and basically

run to the front and gave me this massive big bro hug in front of everybody and Euron's

like oh yes we, he must be good, yeah Euron and that was the start of that so Smithy's

comment and then obviously we've worked together for a long time.

He'll be right back after this short break.

I've heard that very successful period you worked with the Chiefs, you were there 11

years and they won back to back super rugby championships and I'm not sure if this timeline

links up with it but I've heard that one of the things you were really proud of was when

the team got moved out of Waikato Stadium and they ended up sort of building a base

out at Rillkura and all the team chipped in, is that just the best representation of team

culture and why they had that success at that time?

Yeah absolutely, you know some things that when you look back and you start to ask the

question how did it happen that you went from what we were to what we became really quickly

and that whole sense of being really grounded and really humble, I reckon it is the ongoing

struggle for any good coach is how to maintain a culture of humility and gratitude and Renz

won't mind me saying this, I remember really specifically that our first goal in 12 was

not, you know the icing was to win the championship and even that is a statement back then was

a little bit outside the box but the first real goal was to have more community hours

than the breakers and we made that really apparent to the team that this year we were

going to, I think they had like done two and a half thousand hours of community service

or something so we made our goal to try and hit three thousand hours of community service

and then that sort of reflects what that was about, you know Tom Coventry was the man behind

the idea of Rillkura, his dad was the at Rillkura and so that's how he knew of the building

and then from there it became really clear to Renz very quickly that that could be an

amazing venue and then it wasn't anything like it is now and that required the man

had to go in, pull down walls, paint, clean up, change the whole set up, we didn't have

grounds while that was happening, the boys had to ride on push bikes every day to different

school to train, we were based at St Paul's Cricker Pavilion for the pre-season right

through until I think just before first round I think and so you can imagine what that was

like is that we were driven to do community service, the hours were kept and recorded,

there was a little wee alleyway that went through from the medicine floor into the team

room and I kept all the hours on the wall, photos, anything that boys had been doing

was on the walk, so they had to walk past that every single time they were going into

the room and Renz, the coaches, everyone was involved in any community service so they

were biking into the community, they were playing, doing training at schools, having

to interact with the kids every day and then community service so for me that's a critical

ingredient to why they did what they did in 12 was just the camaraderie and the closeness

but also the fans and the fans, we really made the fans family and really pushed that

and then I've just you know it's been an experience that and again why I say it's

you know that team potentially should have won more than two championships it was good

enough and the coaching crew were good enough but we didn't and then 14 and 15 on the back

of 12 and 13 you could just feel it slipping away and when I say slipping away and what

is it that was slipping away is the spirit and the unconscious feeling of humility and

you can feel humility and you can feel gratitude and you can see it in people's habits and

so you know but that would also coincide, oh they're playing some good footy now too

so again there's layers and layers to this, that's not just one or two things but it's

not, for me it's no irony that there was also the time we got a new gym, we got a sprint

field in the gym itself so there were three sprint tracks and the mezzanine floor and

everything became plunge pools and...

Is that your job when you feel it slipping away, this feeling that you've had before,

is that on you to pull that back?

It's certainly on conversations with the coaches and the leadership group about what

we're noticing and how we're going and you know because we're still doing the same hours

of community service, I'll give you one memory which is a hard case one, in 2015 or 16 we

were playing the Highlanders in a quarter-final in Dunedin and we lost, the Tuesday or Wednesday

I was in charge of the community service part, that part and I'd organised with transit

for us to plant two community gardens on the other side of the old Wintek up which is going

to be Rota Kaori I think it's going to be called and so we had a massive, if people

are listening and you know that area go over there now because the apple trees are actually

in full apple at the moment so that's 15, 16 so we planted hundreds of Fijau trees and

apple trees and made two beautiful gardens and frankden trees donated like huge tonnage

of mulch and I thought that we'd got a digger to move all this mulch around and we rock

up and there's these massive piles of mulch and there's no digger or those bobcats anywhere

and I'm like, Rens like, where's the bobcat David, I'm thinking the same thing.

I said, but we've got 30 shovels and 10 wheelbarrows so anyway we get to work and that was like

six or seven hours the boys were just going in the heat like this, going nuts, moving

this mulch around and it was the night of our dinner and some of the senior boys came

over to me about four o'clock and we're getting close to finishing but we hadn't finished

and they go, DG, I said, yeah, I said, we've got to call it a day, I said, we haven't finished

and they went, no, no, you don't understand, we've got to go and have a shower and go and

pick up our ladies and we've got awards and I'm like, yeah, I still don't understand

what you're saying and they're like starting to get bit, you know, like, no, we're done

and then Rens comes over and goes, what's up and some of the senior boys go, Rens, we've

got dinner at 6.30 and he goes, we haven't finished and then that's Rens, all right,

and that's him to a tee and we finished that damn job and then we lost and Rens and I

still laugh about it now that Orchard cost us the game against the Highlanders, it didn't

cost us the game against the Highlanders but man, the boys were being poked after that

so I guess that humility, I'm always looking for that, always, I watch what time people

arrive, I watch them at community service activities, I look for level engagement, I look for what

time they go home, I look at the rubbish bin, I look at the toilets to see if they're clean,

I'm looking at everything that tells me whether people are really, really respectful and grateful

to be in that building and because I get, you know, time each week, that's my time to

come to church with them and have some conversations and for me the number one thing is the cake

and so I'm constantly checking the quality of our cake and often, you know, I apologise

for it, I'll say some things that challenge that space but that's an individual and a

collective, you know, that individual has a culture as well so that one ingredient, massive

and it's the hardest one because it's the people so you can have all the knowledge that

you, you can have the best knowledge in the world but not the people synergy and you won't

get it, you can have limited knowledge and limited skills but people synergy and you'll

get that long magic feel it and you walk into any environment, any organisation you walk

in, you go, this feels cool, there it is, you can watch them train and you see it straight

away, you look on a schedule and you get an idea about whether that's a, let's say it's

a green, orange or red session, so easy walk session, a 70% session or a full noise mouth

guards required session, you can just watch those and you can see it in the way that

the intensity is delivered and then that no surprises flows out in those key moments

and a competition moment.

How did that chief's experience compare to your Japan rugby experience because I imagine

there'd be some parallels but some massive differences as well.

Yeah, look the Japan teams are very special place and I guess the way you start to understand

the Japan culture is recognising that the men aren't paid to play for Japan, they get

a daily allowance which isn't a lot of money and they get looked after, they get looked

after really well but they do not get paid to play for Japan, playing for Japan is an

honour, there's nothing else for them, that is the one thing that they aspire to and it's

not for the money, the money that they make is in the company rugby.

So I think that really starts to help us understand the culture that underpins the Japan team

as one that we have to almost try and create in a professional era in New Zealand because

when players get really good they start to look at their conditions, they start to call

the shots a little bit about I'll come to play for you guys if, there's none of that

in Japan and so that, nothing against the men doing that in New Zealand so that's not

a, it's just a comparison and so that degree of honour and gratitude is very, very deep

and then so you can then see how that would come through in their application, they're

already a society that's very driven to be perfect so you combine absolute gratitude,

loyalty, a work ethic which I haven't seen repeated anywhere, no one, I haven't seen

anyone train harder than they train, they just, they train the house down.

One of their ancestors.

Exactly, exactly, for them it's like their motivation isn't, it's, it isn't anything,

obviously they enjoy, I guess there's a, many of them have got quite a status in Japan so

they'll enjoy that I'm sure but the integrity is the key.

I don't know how much you can talk about this but Jamie Joseph is there coaching Japan

and he reaches out to you to come and help the group, does he give you specifics of what

he thinks needs work or does he just say come over here and you figure out what exactly

you need to do to improve this team?

Yeah, when I first met, I met Jamie and he, you know I laughed about this actually when

he only connected me with me pre Tokyo World Cup and I was working with Rens in the 20s

program under Dave Hatfield as a mental skills provider until 2009 and it was a morning tea

position specific skills coaches come in all the time to help coach up the lads and Jamie

came in for forwards and for some reason I just oriented to him to have a cup of tea

one day and we yarn for probably half an hour and I remember vividly thinking in that one

day I'll work with you and then he messaged me to talk, to catch up on the phone and talk

about Japan and our first thing that we both said is, I see you remember that cup of tea?

Yeah, I remember it right now and I said I thought that day that you and I worked together

one day and he said that's why I'm clinking in with you because I thought the same thing

and then so we were just really clear that my first trip over there was to go and see

whether, because we weren't clear whether the way that you know that I work, he and

I weren't sure whether we'd, we both thought we'd get on real good but we weren't sure

whether we'd work together well or whether the way that I worked would be understood

by the Japanese and so the first camp we really agreed that that was about me coming in, connecting

with him with the management and the coaching group, doing a couple of group sessions with

the team with the interpreters and to see where that went and because, I think because

Jamie and I both operate at the cake level and the Japanese are, even though despite

it when you look at them, they are about appearances and wanting everything to look really really

good, they are also at the cake level and so that became a connection real quick and

understanding that the Japan team is so multi-ethnic, you know we've got huge Pacific contingency

and that team and a lot of those players have Japanese partners or wives, they've been there

since university so it's a beautiful mix of, you know you feel like you've got a, you

know Maldi Tongan Samoan real real deep feel and then that, when Jamie and I saw that operating

with how we operate it was like yeah this is going to work and then we just wove in

because the layers of high performance were already there, it was really about the Amsterdam

to build, you know a real sense of possibility because no one thought they'd do what they

did.

Yeah, incredible.

And they did it well too, you know they just did something pretty amazing but they did

it with style, so that was, you know a real sense of I guess being patient and not forceful,

you know I think Jamie and I set it up properly which is we didn't expect it to even work,

we didn't go in, go in, you're going to do it this way and then obviously he and Brown

he run an amazing ship so I always laugh with them that they could have done it without

me, didn't need me but he's smart, he knows that you bring a group of people together

who have the same culture and then that becomes like a, you know if there's four it becomes

like a fifth person or if there's five it becomes like a sixth spirit and so the players

end up feeling contained way more by a collective culture and so that's the magic is that there

isn't at that point a coach or a psychologist or a physio or a manager, they're all part

of the spiritual culture that exists within the place.

All of these lessons we're talking about in the sport context, transferable over to business,

I know you do corporate work, do you have to reframe your message or is it pretty much

the same thing?

Yeah, no it's crazy how similar it is, you know I've found that it works both ways like

there's a lot sport can learn from business and there's a lot business can learn from

sport and you know I think one of the key things in business that they really connect

with is accountability or I think more responsibility because in sport you can't hide and the integrity

is apparent to everybody, every time you put your bloody rugby jersey on and run on the

field and business is both scared and inspired by that to bring a sense of well let's have

a look at your plans, let's have a look at your vision, who you say you are, let's look

at that and then let's look at what your actual business is and then what your plan is for

what you want to achieve and by the way what is it you want to achieve and then if they

give me a figure, I'm like oh I had to get to that figure, so if you want to win the

championship eight times, how did you get to that and let's have a talk about that

and so bringing, let's say they want to, let's say our business wants to do an hundred mil

because part of the cake baking is about getting very, very clear, I talk about the train which

is you're either driving your own train or you're on someone else's train and the other

person's train is whoever is in charge, you know, locally or nationally, so when you wake

up in the morning life is, the metaphor of life is it's a train and you're either, you

know, you're either a captain or driving your own train or you just get up and I'll

pick up your phone and grab a coffee and jump on carriage 45 with the rest of the sheep

and so that whole essence of the train and waking it on is connect that to my thinking,

ah yes, there's three carriages, there's the friends and family carriage, the professional

carriage and the hobby carriage, so the hobby carriage is a choice, you know, you can choose

to have that or not, you can't discard the first carriage which is your friends and family

and the professional carriage and so the crossover to business, let's say the professional carriage

and rugby is win in super championship, then in business it's a what's yours and then I'm

really pushing them to go actually what is that, what are you earning, what's the number,

what's the number you're chasing and then there's a couple of great little clips I send

to people often which is one is a Ferrari tire change and Formula One and although Red

Bull has the world record, I like Ferrari, Tom Selleck, it's a really great reference

and it said like full tire change, full load of fuel, a pie and a flat white and like I

think it's 1.8 seconds and I go that's pretty impressive but the detail behind that is just

next level and then I've got one of a little wee old school mini tow and a 40 foot caravan

across a four wheel drive track through a creek and gets up the other half way up the

other side and blows the engine and the caravan tows it back into the creek and I go over

these two examples of the plan and so the business bit I think which they really take

from and joy from sport and inspired by it is if you're a genuine athlete with integrity

and credibility you've already won or got on the podium before you even get there and

that's in the detail of your plan and the layers of no wriggle room and a lot of businesses

want that but I pause because they say they want that and then a couple of my mates and

I go well in the end you become the last person that they want to talk to but the first person

they need to talk to and then that's where I reckon the connection is they know in themselves

that they are only performing at 50% or 70% and it might be a staff thing or it might

be themselves thing and so it does fit really closely and really well.

The bit for them I think which is shocking at times is just how brutal it is in that

sense of and this is where I can see why sometimes people might think high performance

sport is a little bit edgy in that space because it is brutal and it's brutal because the difference

between first and second can be a hundred thousandths of a second and you're like sorry

a thousandths of a second which you can't even click on a stopwatch and so you're going

that's what I mean by brutal it's not like in bullying it's just brutal because if the

difference between a gold and silver is that's that close you're going to have to be very

special with where you live every day for a very long time but if you look at business

well you know the moment where the global economy is some people are going to go under

and some people are going to fly or ones who fly you can guarantee they look like they're

an Olympian or a good Olympian so huge crossover both ways I love the buzz I get we're talking

to people in business because they all of a sudden their eyes are opening to holy heck

I've only been operating at 20-30% and I go how cool is that and then they're away and

some of them really grab that and it's quite special because it's you know no one needs

no one sees them it's all them you know their ego quietens down and they really drop into

what they're good at and where they go and the team comes with them if they're a leader

so you know it's a there's lots that can go both ways must be quite an incredible feeling

opening their eyes to that being the one that is helping them guide their way yeah and I'm

going to start to wrap us up but Shay have you got some bits and pieces here oh the more

kind of anecdotes are interesting interesting parts and one was is there any truth to you

delivering a message to a visiting sporting team about you should just go and shave your

heads because it doesn't matter what you look like it's about and it's it's along the same

lines of the cake analogy and that it was a female sports team and one of those players

did do that later on albeit albeit to raise raise money for cancer but like those sorts

of messages again I think another another person for that touring group said that that

conversation has just changed my life on the way out like those profound moments that you

have with people must be incredibly rewarding as well for you yeah it's yeah I do you know

part of my daily processes to recognise that yes I love coffee and I love to make my own

little coffee and a little Italian stovetop one one person so it's tiny you got to grind

the beans put them in pack it down put on the stovetop wait for it to heat up takes

time I'll make myself do that versus where you know we're possible by no take away or

a yeah I don't do instant and when I sip that I just remind myself you know because

how I say to myself I just go remember our soul this is a bloody privilege mate don't

you ever forget it this is a special thing so I'm goose bumping now eh so I'll do that

or tearful actually once or twice a day I'll sit there and just give that five or ten minutes

and then that also expands into doesn't matter where they come from so it's just recognising

that that it's a hell of a hell of a space that people let me in or join and you magnify

that in a team so that that one's obviously I remember exactly who that was and what the

team is that was a real special team too and they were poised to reckon to go on and do

amazing things but they didn't but not because of their own um doing I think that was a system

era where they weren't mature enough to system about to see the trajectory that team was

on was that team would I reckon would want to go middle next games not the one that they

were at that I was with them at but they if they had carried that team in a way and provided

the scaffolding to keep it together had all that had all the dimensions of the next time

through they'll win it and the way New Zealand sport set up is it's not set up on potential

it's set up on numbers and if you don't have these numbers your funding's cut and then

that's all of a sudden you do that and then you just the garden gets um influenced so

you know I remember that and that that one comment as part it's not like it's a throwaway

comment because it's in by itself um it's a conversation over time about whether you

are um prisoner of your ego or you've found enlightenment and freedom from living inside

out and then that's that point where in the end you actually don't want the gold because

you're just going to pollute the moment and so you know the men it's the same conversation

as the most with the with the men the last place I go before a game is I was hanging

out on the corner I can see the mirrors and if I see you guys doing they're here which

is a lot of them I will see them the next week and say talk me through that talk me

through that that when we're huddling up you're going to check your ear you see how they are

and now let's see you go prison um and so same comment with them which is well how do

you release it out and I go I don't know I go I do shave your head no way I go I will

talk again so that's where that that comes from and this is just a a curiosity one you

were in the all black sevens hat that's a unique sports team in itself and then they assemble

here and then they deploy for various tournaments do you do you travel where there is all your

work done here domestically can they call on you when they are overseas at those legs

if you don't travel I yeah I try not I'll go to I'll go to the home tournaments so I'll

use the home tournaments an opportunity to be involved better see what's and how it's

rolled out so as a as a general rule I don't travel at all unless it's a you know some

less as part of us putting together information to look at planning and seeing where baselines

are at and doing observations and those sorts of things so I try and do that at home if

I can I'm definitely at that point the technology is so good now you know you can be in the

room in a meeting now and you've lost like you there so I'm always you know available

and often in meetings but almost linking that right back to the very beginning I don't think

I should be just on the my practicing model whereas a lot of psychologists think it's

important there excuse me and that's fine that's just their practice in model but often

when you have the conversations about why that is it's just in case and I'm right okay

so now we're now we're getting to the conversation then yeah hey I'm gonna throw to shave for

the outro but before I do thank you so much for giving us your time I feel like this is

a conversation that it could there's so many different paths we could spend so long on

like there's so much infinite wisdom there so it's great it's when I feel the audience

will go back and listen to again I certainly will there's so many deep messages there that

need real time to sit with but thank you so much it's been such a cool chat and I'll throw

to the outro guy to wrap us up you use my first word which I noted down as we were talking

which was deep and it has been it's deep it's been measured packed with metaphor and personal

stories and you've spoken a few times about humility and that humility has come through

in the way that you deliver your messages and I don't think it's better captured than

in your own words which I'm gonna read back to you which when I read them for the first

time I was like oh yeah maybe but then having spent time in your presence I think these

are far accurate so these are your words that we're gonna kind of enjoy but I'd like to

share a few words with you even though I don't know who you are and I might never get to

meet you there are two things I hope for you first when you gaze into your lover's eyes

or the eyes of your children your friends or family I hope you feel deep connection and

peace in short you feel home second when you gaze into your own eyes while standing in

front of the mirror you feel pride and joy go on try it today for a couple of minutes

when you can experience these two things deeply you've truly arrived at the meaning of life

it is a place words will never adequately portray it resides in the unconscious dimension

and one all can access sadly though it is only a very small minority whoever do I wish

with all my heart it is you I think that's beautiful and sums up what we've spoken about

today so thank you very much for your time yeah awesome that's lovely yeah cool cheers

David yeah you're back hey guys if you've made it this far hopefully that means you've enjoyed this episode and if you feel

strongly enough about it to share on social media that would be much appreciated also make

sure you subscribe to the show in your podcast app and leave a review that stuff is really

important for helping us grow catch you next week

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