Mamamia Out Loud: Are We Narcissists: An Intervention

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Mamma Mia Out Loud!

Hello and welcome to Mamma Mia Out Loud.

It's what women are talking about on Friday, the 24th of March.

I am Holly Wainwright.

I'm Mia Friedman.

And I'm Jesse Stevens.

And on the show today, if everyone from Elon to Taylor to Trump to Meghan is a narcissist,

is everyone a narcissist and then is anyone a narcissist?

What one of the most overused terms on the internet actually means.

And our best and worst of the week include Shabbat, TV sets, surfing and protests.

I have to have an intervention.

It's not Shabbat.

I'm sorry.

It's Shabbat.

Jesse's and her family, bless them, have all been calling it Shabbat.

It's a Jewish thing.

It happens on a Friday night.

Shabbat.

Apologies to the proper Jewish listeners.

Shabbat is like, we're going to talk about it.

It's S-H-A-B-B-A-T Shabbat.

Okay.

Sorry.

Art.

Best and worst of the week include Shabbat.

Got it.

I'm sorry.

I'm sorry if I offend anybody who's listening.

Deeply.

But first, Jesse Stevens.

Who gets to complain about the cost of living?

Because God knows I've been doing a lot of it.

But according to the internet, it's time for influencers to shut up.

For influencers and former bachelor contestant,

she came second on lucky season of The Bachelor.

Remember it very well.

I just got married right back.

Yeah.

I don't even, I can't.

I don't even know.

Well, her name's Bella Varales.

And she posted recently about how her rent increased by $400 a week

for her four clues apartment.

That is a lot.

What was it?

To increase by $400 a week,

what must it have been in the thousands?

No.

It's a two bedroom apartment and it is now listed for rent at $1,150 per week.

If it went up by $400, that means that she was paying.

And the sound you can hear are three people who can't do math.

I was very good at math.

Sorry.

Also singing.

Sorry, man.

$700.

Yeah.

So that's almost a 50% increase.

That's a lot.

That's not anyway.

Wasn't that good at math, clearly?

It's, you know what it is?

I got overconfident about my math.

It's more than it was.

And some would say it's $400 more than it was.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And so for clues, for anyone who doesn't live in Sydney,

is one of the most expensive suburbs in Sydney.

It's far east as expensive.

Anyway, Varales didn't receive an onslaught of sympathy.

And in fact, that wasn't really what she was asking for when she said it.

She was just sharing that her rent had gone up

and that's why she was moving house because she, you know,

found that that was a lot of money.

She was more shining a light on rental increases.

And on Wednesday after she got a lot of shit,

which we will go into,

she released a bit of a statement on her Instagram.

And here's what she said to clarify.

Australian media articles really need to sort out their priorities

because it's almost laughable that this is what people are talking about

is me moving.

Guys, I never said I couldn't afford my rent.

Ever.

Not once did I say I couldn't afford my rent.

I actually offered to pay the increase just because I loved that view so much

and also just the effort of moving.

I just couldn't be bothered.

I offered, but it's actually illegal for me to have stayed

because apparently it's legally you can't put it up by that much of the current tenant.

You have to, in order to achieve an increase by that much,

you have to put it back on the market for that price to get a new tenant in.

So I couldn't have stayed it even if I wanted to.

Even when I offered the increase, I was like,

it's not even worth it because half the stuff doesn't work.

But you know, the view mattered to me because I loved being able to look at the ocean.

So stop coming at me because what I do with my money is none of your business.

Now, this segment isn't about Bella's Valkyrie's apartment specifically.

Oh, that's a shame because I wanted to hear more about the things that didn't work in the apartment.

I don't know if that helped her case, but I understand the people she's in

were mad with her because she was suggesting like she couldn't afford it

and they were like, of course you can, you're loaded.

But then she said, yes, of course I can.

Which is why I didn't help.

Influencer updates Australia, which is like a private Instagram account.

That sounds like a bad idea.

You spend a lot of time there, don't you?

I followed them for this story and I'll probably be unfollowing them

because there's not nice things there.

But lots of commenters suggested that Bella ought to get a real job

and they pointed out the irony that she has a feed full of designer bags

as if she's rich but apparently can't afford rent.

People suggested that she move further west if rent is such a struggle

and argued that when you talk about the rental crisis, Bella is not who people are thinking of.

Now, here's my question.

Rental prices not just in Sydney but all over the country are shocking.

In Queensland, they're looking seriously at rental caps.

So many of my friends anecdotally are being notified that their rent

has increased so considerably, hundreds of dollars, that they've got to move.

Looking for a rental means joining hundreds of others

that every other open inspection goes around the corner, it's hell.

And that's if you have a full-time job, dual income.

If you don't have that, if you're unwell, if you're a single parent,

if you lose your job, housing becomes really scary.

But when rent is jumping by $400, a coffee is $7.

It's $32 for a bag of grapes, $17 for a bacon and egg roll and $50 for dog food.

I think grapes are probably out of season but we'll let that slide.

This is the problem.

I think that everybody's rent and the cost of living...

Interest rates as well.

So everybody's got certain incoming and outgoing.

And I think everything's relative.

Who deserves our sympathy more is different.

But I think it's very rare to find someone, although confusingly,

Bella said she's that person who can't afford a $400 increase in their rent, right?

So even if you're paying $2,000, that's what your budget is set up for.

And you've made the decision that, yes, we can afford $2,000,

but we can't afford $2,400 or whatever it is.

It's kind of like the privilege Olympics.

Everybody has to acknowledge their privilege, which I understand.

What does the term privilege mean?

So I was in the Out Loudest group, we'd had a conversation about Prince Harry

in an interview, a person who wasn't qualified, diagnosed him with ADHD,

and we talked about the overdiagnosis and self-diagnosis.

Now, a conversation sparked up in the Out Loudest Facebook group

where people were saying we were tone deaf because professional diagnosis was a privilege

because it cost money and it was also quite difficult to organise.

I mean, yes, of course, that's true, but it's like privilege disqualifies you

from complaining about anything.

And so there was someone in that group who then had to call themselves privileged

because they could afford the $20 a week that it cost to buy their son's crucial medication.

I read that comment and I thought, are we now saying that someone

who can afford to pay the very basics of something their son needs to be okay

has to apologise and say I'm privileged

because there will always be someone less privileged than you, always.

There will always be someone, you know, if you've got a home, someone will not have a home.

If someone doesn't have a home, there'll always be someone who doesn't have a home

and has a disability. And, you know, there'll always be someone further down the chain than you.

Holly, is that necessarily a bad thing to qualify our complaints with acknowledging that we don't have it the worst?

I think it's a good thing to acknowledge it.

I agree with Mia that everybody is allowed to complain

because everybody is being hit by this, whether you rent, whether you're paying a mortgage,

whether you're buying your food at the supermarket, whether you buy it like wherever,

everybody is being affected by how everything is getting more expensive.

So I agree with Mia that everybody is allowed to complain.

However, I don't have a problem with acknowledging privilege

because of course there are people who have more than me

and there are people who have less than you,

but you always sound like an entitled dickhead if you moan about your particular circumstances

without acknowledging your good fortune.

And so, you know, if I was talking about the cost of living and I mean, I rented for so many years

and there is the worst thing about it is the lack of control in any minute that let it can arrive

in the mail or the email or the call from the real estate that upends everything for you.

It's like a really, really stressful thing.

So I can acknowledge my privilege in that I have a mortgage now and I pay a mortgage

and my mortgage has probably gone up about $600 a month in the last few months,

which is a lot of money and it's enough money to impact decisions I'd make about work,

about spending, about my future.

But I'm privileged enough and I think it's worth acknowledging that it doesn't mean I'm facing potentially being homeless.

And I don't think it's a problem for me to acknowledge that

because when people who are in really comfortable financial situations don't acknowledge that when they're complaining,

they always sound awful.

Case in point, Prince Harry, I've had to listen to him whinge a lot about all the things he can't afford

and I'm like, mate, you can afford most things.

And look, I feel like I've sort of argued myself into a corner where it sounds like I'm suggesting we do a go fund me for Bella to help it

because I'm not suggesting that and I'm not saying there's anything wrong with acknowledging your privilege, right?

But the use of the word privilege has, I think, become almost farcical.

It's also used as a weapon to say to someone, check your privilege, which basically means shut up.

And I think she posted on her own social media account about her own situation.

She didn't write an op-ed in the newspaper saying, woe is me, I am the face of the rent increase.

Rent or crisis in Australia.

She just, and what happens so often is that it's then taken out of context and blown up.

It's headlined that she's complaining about and I didn't think anyone would argue that you shouldn't be able to say,

hey, $400 rent increases a bit hectic and now I have to move house.

I reckon this actually speaks to influencer culture and how difficult it can be because she never said that she was a victim.

That wasn't really the intention of what she was saying, but she necessarily has to share her life because her career choice mandates it.

So if everything she filmed was in another house and people would say, hey, why are you in another house?

And so she's sort of just getting on the front foot.

And influencers have to make content about their lives.

That's what they do. That's their job.

And this is why the old school celebrities of the 90s had it right, which is no one should know how you're living because when people know how you're living, they hate you.

But those people were famous for things that they did. They were famous for their jobs.

Influencers, their jobs is talking about their lives.

Yes. But I've said this before, the unboxing, the conspicuous consumption, the gifts, the designer handbags, the endless boxes of makeup is becoming increasingly on the nose.

And there is a tone deafness within influencer culture right now that I reckon we're all feeling.

But this always annoys me because it's like someone saying, well, someone shouldn't bask in the street, right?

Like they can bask. It's up to you whether you give them money.

So the influencers can post what they want. It's up to you whether you follow them or not.

That's up to you. So for you to go and stand in front of a busker and go, hey, mate, I hate what you're playing.

It's like, well, keep walking. But the answer is not for him to stop playing his songs because you don't like them.

This is what I'm saying is that the tide is turning, whether or not that's a vocal backlash or people's investment in your life at a time when the cost of living means that people are going without.

And they're downsizing or they're seriously thinking, can I afford to feed my family dinner?

And there are families like that.

Oh, we know we've got out louders who are, you know, and our love and hearts go out to you who are having to make really difficult decisions every single day.

I just find it fascinating because there's this other influencer named Sarah's Day.

Her name is actually Sarah Stevenson, right? And she makes lots of content. She's a YouTuber.

She has this beautiful house that she's renovated and she did a big announcement on YouTube the other day about her life and everyone was like, what's it going to be?

And she basically said, I've just bought another property for a photo shoot location.

So I've bought another house to film.

See, I just can't people.

Do you know what that's like, Holly? It's like Gwyneth Paltrow saying what she eats.

So people who are just not reading the room, they're not reading the room.

And this is the room is interesting, right? Cause I can sit there if we went out for dinner and I went, oh my God, guys, my rent has increased by blah.

I feel as though I know my audience. You two know that I get my privilege.

The issue with social media is that there is no one audience.

Your audience is everyone and therefore you're upsetting these people.

Maybe these people care and are happy for you, but you've kind of got to be speaking to every experience.

But then also you're only damaging your own brand, right?

So the thing is, is nobody likes to listen to rich and beautiful people complaining.

No one has ever liked listening to it.

They don't like listening to it if they're Gwyneth and they don't like listening to it if they're Bella.

And I know there are degrees there like Gwyneth is worth $250 million or whatever and Bella probably is.

And let's face it, probably her designer handbags were free, a lot of them.

But like nobody likes to listen to that.

So self-awareness is important.

You know, it's kind of true if people are saying don't live in for clues.

Of course that's her choice to live in for clues, but they're also allowed to say that because they're also right.

Like don't whinge about stuff that to the rest of us sounds like insane privilege.

I think there is a reason to police yourself a little bit because we talk about how polarized we all are.

We talk about how angry everybody is online.

And part of it is because we can see things that we can't have that we never used to see, right?

Rich people's problems used to just be rich people's problems and the rest of us didn't have to know about it.

But now we have this open window all the time into seeing what everybody else is doing.

And it can make you very angry and very bitter.

And when you're like, why are you complaining about your beautiful healthy children when I haven't got, you know, like whatever it is?

Because we can see everything.

So I don't think it's the worst thing in the world to encourage a bit of self-awareness.

Well, I think if they win, I should get all the credit.

And if they lose, I should not be blamed at all. OK?

Big question for a Friday.

Is everyone a narcissist now?

In an article in the cut, Hannah Rosen wrote about how everyone's branded a narcissist these days.

And if everyone's one, is no one one. She wrote,

Ever since Trump perfected the template, grandiose, manipulative, easily wounded, unable to tolerate even minor scenarios in which he isn't deemed central or special.

Very good description.

The label has been steadily spreading.

She writes for women, the bar is preposterously low.

Cardassian Jenner's Taylor Swift, Rihanna, Cardi B, Madonna and pretty much any other prominent female celebrity, not excluding Beyonce and especially Meghan Markle are all possible narcissists, according to one quotable shrink or another.

There is also a book at the moment by this well-respected author that Hannah Rosen references called Jean Twenge, who's written a book about it.

And in the promo for that, it says, narcissism and inflated view of the self is everywhere.

Public figures say it's what makes them stray from their wives.

Teenagers and young adults hone it on social media and celebrity newsmakers have elevated it to an art form.

And it's what's making people depressed, lonely and buried under piles of debt.

So is it true? Are we all narcissists? A quick definition first, right?

Why are they under debt, buried under piles of debt?

I think the idea is you are buying things constantly to satisfy your own narcissism.

Because it's about power and how you appear.

There's a lot to do with it.

For example, is this an intervention?

Is this seriously intervention?

She came to it herself, Holly. We don't need to do the next bit.

Great.

That's all going on.

Because when you're reading that stuff, I was like, some of that sounds familiar.

Let me give you a little bit more of a definition.

The dictionary definition is excessive interest in or admiration of oneself and one's physical appearance, right?

Then there's a psychological definition.

Because you go on Instagram without makeup sometimes.

Selfishness involving a sense of entitlement, a lack of empathy and a need for admiration as characterizing a personality type.

So a narcissist is those things.

There is actually a personality disorder, which is specifically in like the book of mental disorders called NPD is one of the 10 personality disorders.

And I can go through the signs, but it's kind of long.

The interesting thing is no one knows how many narcissists there are because everybody says they know one has either married one is the daughter of one worked with one.

But nobody self-diagnoses narcissism.

Except me.

Except you.

And it says nailing down NPD can be complicated since narcissists tend to think there's nothing wrong with them.

They rarely enter treatment and this may in part explain why we all might feel we know and encounter many narcissists, but only an estimated 5% of people have NPD.

Because why would say?

Okay.

So the best sign that I'm not one is that I think I could be one.

Yes.

That's clinical diagnosis.

Apparently the best way to work out if someone's a narcissist, the quickest way is to ask them.

Most narcissists know they are, but don't think it's a problem.

I've made this whole segment about me.

There are three things I can ask you to check if you're a narcissist.

I love it.

Question number one.

Do you feel...

I don't have room in my life for another disorder.

No, no, no.

See, this is going to disqualify you.

Do you feel like your emotions, like when you cry, when you're angry, do you feel like they're genuine?

Yes.

You cry too much for a narcissist.

A narcissist has to put on all emotion.

So you're too emotional to be a narcissist.

I think that's a psychopath.

Anyway, go on.

The second question is, do you think that every person in the world has equal inherent worth?

Or do you look at people...

We'll have to say yes to it.

That's a big question for a Friday.

I have to say yes because the marks are on.

How can she possibly say no?

That's very deep that question.

Yes.

So a narcissist only sees people in terms of hierarchies.

So everyone they meet, they're like, are you the bottom of the hierarchy or the top of the hierarchy?

Oh no, I don't think that.

I don't think like that at all.

The third one is they often think that narcissists are people who love themselves.

That's not necessarily true.

Narcissists are people who think they are better than everyone else.

So which one?

You can be quite self-insured.

I'm better than some people.

Most people, I'm so much worse than.

So you're not a narcissist.

Why are we obsessed with narcissists at the moment?

And what's the difference between a narcissist and a psychopath?

Because I remember a few years ago, I did an interview with a guy who'd written a book about psychopaths.

And so many people I know were like, ah, is a narcissist the new psychopath?

Or are they quite different?

Psychopaths cannot distinguish between right and wrong.

And they have real difficulty experiencing any kind of remorse or empathy.

And they can't learn it.

Whereas a narcissist can learn it.

They're like looking at you and they're like, I don't recognize you.

It sounds like a narcissist can fake it too.

Is that what you're saying?

They can use their emotions to be manipulative.

Psychopaths can as well.

And in the Venn diagram, there are a few overlapping things.

But the difference as well is that a psychopath is more likely to actually be violent or like cross the line.

A narcissist won't.

They don't kind of need to be.

So are we throwing around narcissists so much at the moment?

Because some people find it very triggering.

Some people are like, don't laugh about that.

Don't tease about that.

You know, I used to be married to a narcissist and it ruined my life.

Or my mother was a narcissist and it ruined my life.

It's a serious thing.

But has it entered the lexicon now like a way we commonly talk to each other about everything every day to a point where it's become meaningless?

Or is it true that as the author suggests, we've all become more narcissistic as a culture because of things like you.

We were talked about this the other day.

I can't remember what the context was.

Oh, it was about the people doing the getting ready with new videos.

Social media has made us all more narcissistic and algorithms and the Internet has made us all more narcissistic.

Because for better and worse, it's given everybody an equal voice.

So the New York Times has an Instagram account.

So does Holly Wainwright.

So does Jane Smith.

And everybody can write a blog.

Everybody can publish photos of themselves.

Everybody can be an influencer.

It was a little bit like Bo Burnham's movie about that teenager who like, hey guys, welcome to my channel.

And there's like no one watching her channel.

She tries to be a YouTuber.

Hey guys, it's Kayla back with another video.

So the topic of today's video is being yourself.

Being yourself can be hard and it's like, aren't I always being myself?

And yeah, for sure.

But being yourself is like not changing yourself to impress someone else.

So it's the idea of everyone's performing all the time for an audience because we are.

Even if you're just a regular person with a Facebook page and you're posting some pictures of your holiday, we're all making content for an audience.

So aren't we, haven't we collectively turned the camera around to ourselves to make it a mirror rather than looking out a window?

It's a scale.

And in terms of the scale, we're culturally moving up.

So the research suggests that narcissistic traits are on the increase.

Being an actual narcissist is different to that, right?

So yeah, although as this literature was saying, we don't actually know how many people are actual narcissists.

Does that mean that being diagnosed as a narcissist is a privilege?

Definitely.

I'm trolling, go on.

Research suggests that men are more likely to be narcissists than women.

Whereas in terms of the tendencies, obviously during adolescence and when the brain hasn't fully developed, you are more narcissistic.

Well, babies are the most narcissistic people of all.

Yes.

Because they literally can't distinguish anything.

It's just me, have you met a toddler exactly?

It's just me.

They all are.

And sometimes you look at maybe your own child or someone else's and go, you're a monster.

You're so self-absorbed.

And they just have not learnt yet to hide their narcissism.

Yes, they are 100 on the narcissism scale.

My mum was recently at Esther Perrell.

She's a relationship expert.

She's an author.

She's a podcast.

She's got a beautiful accent.

Yes, she's amazing.

She's just listened to everything she has to say about relationships.

But someone said my ex was a narcissist and then went on to ask a question and Esther Perrell said, I'm going to stop you there.

Please don't use terms like that so flippantly.

It's not helpful.

What I want you to do is go back to the beginning of that question and ask me what you want without using that term.

Because it's become this cultural shorthand that conflates a whole bunch of different things and it's not helping our understanding of each other.

Right.

Because it's an actual disorder, narcissism, but we now use it as a loose personality trait.

Like OCD.

Yeah, like I'm so OCD or I'm so ADHD.

Yes, for everyone, which isn't right.

Sometimes it's like, you know, taking a selfie can make you a narcissist or Meghan Markle does one interview and it's like, well, look at you talking about Meghan.

But you can be narcissistic.

You can do a narcissistic thing.

And not be a narcissist.

And not be, it's a bit like toxic, it canceled, and again, another one of those words that just sort of completely write someone off forever.

Yes.

It feels irredeemable.

It's a bad thing.

Yeah.

And that's back to that.

People will tell you the stories of the narcissists they've encountered with no humor or affection.

And you know, back to Donald Trump, because as I say, he's the most pure example I can think of.

There is no question.

You look into that man's soul as much as you can.

There is nothing else there except for Donald.

He's such a good example of it.

And I remember reading so much about it at the time when he was president and I was obsessed.

And they talk about the most dangerous time for a narcissist is when they've had a narcissistic injury.

That's when they behave in incredibly unpredictable and dangerous ways.

So for example, when he lost the election, that was a very big narcissistic injury because it challenged his view of himself as a winner.

And as, you know, the top of the hierarchy.

So that's when he started to say the election's been stolen allegedly inside of the riot on Capitol Hill or didn't allegedly actually did because the injury was so grievous.

And that's when he behaved really badly.

So so are we using it too much?

We definitely are.

But I also understand why because I think I just think that we need to use a language more intentionally so someone can have narcissistic tendencies or traits to dismiss them as a narcissist.

Is dangerous and we should probably do less of that.

But I reckon that every well balanced person, usually people have a social media account are battling with their own narcissism every day.

I feel like I am really trying to keep it at bay and I can feel it coming up and self absorption is a trait I hate and I see it in myself and I try and go and I think a lot of people can relate with that.

If you want to make out loud part of your routine five days a week, we release segments on Tuesdays and Thursdays just for Mamma Mia subscribers to get full access.

Follow the link in the show notes and a big thank you to all our current subscribers.

Time for best and worst moments of the week. I'm going to kick off with my worst and I feel really narcissistic even talking about this.

I'm not kidding because it's about Jesse's wedding, but it's about me and Jesse's wedding.

And I feel like you're allowed to have a narcissistic moment.

I feel like I'm buying into every trope of the oxygen, the mother-in-law, which is just not fair to mother-in-laws and future mother-in-laws.

Anyway, I know there are a lot of out louders who are very concerned and anxious about what I'm going to wear because of course my outfit is the most important thing.

I have to tell you, I am so bored of it, right? I'm just so bored of talking about it and yet here we are.

You haven't changed your mind, have you? Because I've really endorsed the outfit.

I took it back on the waiting. This is the problem with having something picked out too far in advance, right?

So I started looking in January. What I'm not good at, I've realized is...

Making a decision and sticking to it.

That, but also shopping for a particular occasion. I don't like that. I don't like that because I'm like, how am I going to feel on the day?

I'm going to write a post about it because there's so many aspects to choosing a mother of the groom outfit.

Have you spoken to your psychologist about it? I'm not seeing my therapist in a minute.

Anyway, on the weekend, I panicked and I bought two more outfits.

The next day I returned them and I returned the outfit that I had already chosen months ago and was ready to go.

So I'm back to zero. Ten days out.

I love that outfit. It was my favorite thing I've ever seen wear.

One week out or two weeks out?

One week out.

One week out.

Okay, I've taken it back.

One week today, we are at Jezi's wedding.

Why did we decide that the one we decided on wasn't right?

Because I tried it on.

Because you know how you have something and I thought at the time it looks good.

I don't know. Maybe my body's changed. Maybe my brain's changed.

I don't know, but I put it on after I got these other two and I thought, oh, I'm boring.

I'll try them all on. I'll see.

And I tried the two on that I bought that were just wrong.

Coco said one was giving Kris Jenner, which is exactly what I didn't want.

So that was going back.

The other one's going back because it was cheap and she said rightly it didn't even look like a wedding dress.

A bridal girl.

Who do you want to be on the day?

Me is going to be in a tracksuit on your wedding day and I'm here for it.

I think I've got a dress, but it's got sequins on it and I don't,

I feel conscious about wearing sequins and I just want to wear something that'll make me disappear.

But then I put it on and I just feel sad.

You blend in in sequins because that's just you.

You're allowed to wear sequins.

You're muted sequins. Is that okay?

Yes.

I'm officially asking you.

I'll allow sequins. Absolutely.

Okay. Then I'm fine. Then I've just got to get an altered again.

At least I've got something I don't have to keep looking.

Oh my God.

So that was my worst, which is now my best because I've apparently gone out there.

My best has been, I've spent this week on set on the Strive set,

the TV show that is the adaptation of my book or inspired by the book

that I'm an executive producer on Jesse as a producer and writer of with Claire Stevens.

So an executive producer is quite an important role, right?

It is, right? Sounds very important.

They always up there collecting the Oscar.

Yeah, you're going to get the Oscar.

Yeah. So I would get the Oscar.

You would get the Oscar.

I'm not just the only, there's a few of us.

There's Bruna Papandreia, who is like the genius behind Big Little Lies,

Nine Perfect Strangers.

Like she's the proper one.

The big dog.

The big dog.

There's Steve Hortensky.

There's about four of us who are executive producers.

Asha, Keri, who is the star.

She's also an executive producer.

So obviously depending on whether you're the star or whether you're Bruna

or whether you're Steve, like different people have different skills

that they bring to it.

I'm still working out what skill I bring to it because so far it's nothing.

But that is why it's my best because I'm on set.

I'm quite important, but I don't have any jobs.

No responsibility.

How about Vibe?

I think you bring Vibe.

Oh, and I should have mentioned Jodie.

Jodie is also the executive producer.

The reason I haven't mentioned her is that she just went off

and had a baby three days into production.

She should be back any day now.

So they're all like, they're all proper.

Do people bring you cups of tea?

Yes.

I've never been on a set before, like never been on a set.

And so yesterday I was sitting around talking with all the actors

and they're like, have you been on a set before?

And I'm like, never.

So it's like I've got an air of authority and like I'm there till the end.

You know, Notting Hill, where Hugh Grant goes to watch Jodie Roberts

and they give him an earpiece.

That's me.

You get given an earpiece.

Jessie and Claire came on the set yesterday.

And all I want is to hear people bitching, but I haven't heard that yet.

Yeah.

Have you heard?

No.

So you get given an earpiece, there are monitors everywhere

and you sit there and you watch the action on the monitor

and they, every scene they'll do a number of times from different angles.

Actors are amazing.

They're so talented.

So they'll have to do the scene facing the camera.

Then they'll have to do the scene with the back of their head to the camera

with the other person.

And then they'll have to do it again for two shot.

Then they'll have to do it.

And there's great food.

So the catering is amazing.

Best fit I've ever had.

I kept going there.

I'm thinking that I might just bring an SQ and get some takeaway.

Every meal from the set.

I came home last night and said to Luca,

Luca, I don't think I could be an actor.

And he said, I hate that you're pretending that that was your decision.

But watching the actors, I went, oh, I actually don't have those skills.

Like the way they remember things and they bring, they are so talented.

So I just went and got like, the other day it was someone's birthday,

the showrunner and the head writer, Sarah Shell, it was her birthday.

So we had cupcakes.

Amazing.

There was extra cupcakes.

So I got, someone gave me a whole box.

So I was just sitting there with my box.

And there was a scene where Asha, she had to do a scene.

And then she had to walk out of the room.

And I was in the sort of the waiting area around near the set.

And every time she walked out, she just walked straight like towards me.

And every time she did the same six, seven times,

every time I'd be putting a cake in there.

And she just like burst out laughing.

She was like, how many cakes have you eaten?

My worth this week is a bit heavy.

For all the best and worst, it can be anything.

It can be silly.

Maybe me as he can.

I don't know.

Or it can be heavy.

Mine is a bit heavy this week because reading the news this week has really,

really pissed me off.

Now we talked about this on Monday,

but the worst for me has been seeing all the divisive dross pouring out

from these so-called anti-trans protests and then the coverage around them

and the bullshit it is whipping up.

We discussed on Monday Kelly J. Keen,

Mitchell, who is a UK anti-trans campaigner who's deliberately provocative

Let Women Speak campaign arrived on our shores and caused the predictable mayhem,

including Nazi protesters turning out in full support.

We discussed that on Monday.

And then she went off to Hobart and she did a shtick there.

And then she's going to go off to New Zealand and she's going to do a shtick there.

And she's just dying for everyone to tell her she can't come so that she can be,

I've been silenced, I can't say anything anymore.

Then midweek, one nation candidate and all-round fabulous guy, Mark Latham.

Hope everybody got the sarcasm in that.

I have to find myself wondering what Mark Latham thinks about this.

He's always got such an interesting perspective.

He is quite fancying his chances in this weekend's New South Wales state election.

So that's why we have to listen to him again.

But what do you mean fancying his chances?

No, he's a one nation dude.

But he thinks that they might gain a seat.

So he's campaigning hard, right?

So this week he went to a church in southwestern Sydney to do a speech

where he was going to talk about protecting schools from alphabet activism.

I think we all know what that means.

That means what he sees as activism from the LGBTQI plus community, right?

Now, about 15 LGBTQI plus community defenders turned up to voice their displeasure

at Mark Latham talking at this church.

They were then confronted by an angry mob of Latham supporters

who started throwing bottles, started basically a riot attacking police

and it all blew up into four more front pages and extending the story.

Now we've got front page stories about this awful woman and this awful man.

And the reason it's my worst of the week is that this culture war bullshit

that is being whipped up by this stuff and then all of the coverage thereafter

is making the world worse.

It's making the world meaner, smaller, less welcoming, more dangerous.

It's stoking up people's fears.

And it's a straw man.

It's an absolute straw man.

It is poking at people's fears that somehow their rights, their way of living,

blah, blah, blah is going to be taken away from them.

The reality of all this.

And that there's some kind of clear and present danger.

Exactly.

From trans people or people with different sexualities to you.

It's like, oh.

And it's so depressing to see that back, right?

It's so depressing to see that being on front pages of our news services again.

The truth of it is, and the thing is, is all these people want to convince you

that they're punching up when they're attacking trans people.

They're punching up at some kind of oppressive force

who's trying to change the way we live.

In all reality, they are punching down.

The truth of it is that trans people face discrimination and violence every day.

We said on Monday that we were surprised and shocked by the language on the posts

of those Nazis outside the Melbourne place where this awful woman was speaking.

You know who wasn't shocked and surprised is the trans community.

They hear that language all the time.

It's in their comments on social media posts.

It's being directed at them in the street.

They're unsafe walking around.

And if you live in a bubble where you've just seen world pride go on

and you've seen the sequins and the glitter

and you've seen everybody going,

yay, then you can convince yourself that we live in this progressive place

where we are so accepting and trans people are safe.

That's not the reality for most people.

And these dickheads are making everything worse.

This is their business model though.

As you said, because we're old enough to remember

when one nation, their target was Asian Australians,

then their target was refugees.

It was Muslim people and now it's trans people.

So they literally just move from persecuted minority group

to persecuted minority group and use, you know,

the idea of straw man is when you create this pretend enemy

that everybody needs to fight against

and portray all of these different groups

as being a threat to our way of life or a threat to our safety.

And it is such bullshit.

And all it is is trying to harness people who are unhappy

and who are prejudiced and who just want to hate.

Exactly. The problem is is that then when it is put forward

as some kind of legitimate debate,

it opens the door to a lot of hate.

I encourage us all to keep our door closed to that shit.

Let people live their lives. Mark Latham, bite me.

I wish I had something more.

Get in the bin.

Anyway, my best surfing, not me surfing,

because I'm not doing that.

But you know, last week I had a little whinge about my daughter

and how I couldn't get her to read a book.

And this week, my daughter brought me a great deal of joy

when I watched her surfing.

She loves surfing, my daughter.

And I can't tell you as a woman who grew up in the north of England,

in the middle of a dark city, no offence, Manchester,

you're a wonderful place, but there are large swathes of the year

where you only see daylight for a few short hours.

They're not known for their surfing beaches.

They're not known for our surf beaches,

not known for our sunshine and our athletic activities in said surf.

Seeing my strong, beautiful teenage daughter in a wetsuit

like paddling out, it just makes me feel so joyous.

And what's particularly makes me feel so joyous about it

is I see so many girls surfing,

like so many girls surfing down near where I live.

And even though I didn't grow up in Australia,

I'm certainly very familiar with that kind of puberty blues.

Where the girls bought the chico rolls, right?

And sit on the beach in their bikinis with the towels

for the boys when they come in.

I'm sure that still exists, but I can't tell you...

And that last brilliant saying in puberty blues

where the girls go and hire their own surfboard.

Yes, it's like that.

Come to life.

I can't tell you how joyful it is to see so many girls in the surf.

And so that has been my best of the week is...

Just make sure she slips slop slaps.

Of course.

And I...

It's so funny because I was joking with my other teenage mom friends

like, she's not on her phone.

She might get eaten by a shark.

She might get pulled out to see in a rip.

I don't care.

She's not on her phone.

I do really care if she gets eaten by a shark.

No offence.

Jesse Stevens.

My worst...

I would just like to echo what you said, Holly, as well.

It's shit that trans activists have to show up

and argue for their own identity in a public space like that.

And then even them showing up and voicing their opposition to this

is then being put forward as like,

yeah, you won't let me speak like this.

Just everybody just needs to take a deep breath

and have a look at what they're seeing.

It's hard to know what to say whether you...

They shouldn't protest it because then they just make it worse.

But like, also the standard you walk past

is the standard you accept.

But it's also personally dangerous for people to go and protest.

And I just think, yeah, it's awful.

But my worst this week as well is family related.

Just the health of a close family member

is really deteriorating.

And all I can say is that it's so sad.

And when you see the brain and independence

and rationality in all of those things

that we take for granted just sort of disappear,

the worst part of it is seeing how distressing it is

for the person experiencing it.

And feeling like, and this is so awful,

but you're speaking to your family and to the person

and you have this instinct,

sometimes it's like, I can't take this on, it's too much.

It's too sad.

And I hate that part of me too.

And so I'm trying to do the complete opposite.

But it's just awful, awful to watch.

And I just feel for anyone who has a family member with,

whether it's dementia or Alzheimer's,

or it's just awful, awful to see.

And of course, people who have it themselves.

My best was, of course, my pre-wedding Shabbat.

Shabbat, Shalom.

We went to Luke's grandmother's house.

Is this like a traditional pre-wedding?

Yes.

It's not a thing.

So, I mean, Shabbat dinner is like, you know.

You do after Friday, right?

Fridays.

Depending on how observant you are in your due days.

And some people just gather and have a meal on a Friday night

as part of the family coming together.

The idea is that the family come together.

And there's, you know, various ways you can observe it.

But food is a big part of it.

And so, because Jesse, I shouldn't explain this.

You explain it.

Well, what we did was because I'm not Jewish,

but Luca is Jewish.

A rabbi couldn't marry us because we would both have to be Jewish.

So because Mia's family, Luca's whole family is very progressive,

their rabbi offered to give us a blessing.

She can't do it in the synagogue,

but she can do it at Luca's grandmother's place.

She's a lady rabbi.

She's a lady rabbi.

As your father said.

Lady rabbi.

Lady rabbi.

Catholics can't get over it because they're like,

we'd love a woman priest.

He thought that was so great.

Lady rabbi.

And he was like,

can she do all the things that the man rabbis can do?

And I'm like, all the things.

Can you believe it?

It was like a pre-wedding blessing.

Yes.

So beautiful.

What did Mia wear?

She was like, grass outside.

Just don't go there.

Keep going.

Luca's grandma.

I came straight from work just in my defence.

Go on.

Nita, she made a, it's called a hoopa, right?

Hoopa, yeah.

Which is you hold it over us

and she made it out of this beautiful fabric.

It's like an open canopy with like four poles

that she got from bamboo sticks from her garden

and she had a sarong

and she just like tied the sarong between the four poles

and the four poles.

It symbolises, I don't know, the shelter.

I'm going to get this wrong.

But it's open because it's all the love flows through

and it was almost like a wedding.

It was amazing.

It was so beautiful.

It wasn't official.

And it was immediate family

and then everyone has to go around

and give you a blessing.

So like, you know, Luca's little brother

and dad and what they wish for us.

She got us to close our eyes

and imagine like the first time we met

and we knew that we're falling in love

and like when we knew that other person was a good person.

That got me.

That's when I started crying.

I of course looked around.

Mia was crying from the beginning.

But it was just so beautiful.

And my family are obviously Catholic

but just love ceremony and religion

and learning about how other people do things.

I think they're all going to convert.

They loved wearing the kippah.

Well, at one point I was like, oh, is it too due?

Are we going too due?

But they loved wearing the yamakana kippah

and you know, it was just a lovely thing.

You know, it was very lucky

and there was like another rabbi who played the guitar

and just sang some songs and blessings

and it was just beautiful.

And you know, Jackie, the rabbi has as many religious leaders.

I have been with our family at some really important times.

So funerals and births and you know, all of that.

And she's going to bless the little girl

when she comes along.

And I just, it's all very, very exciting.

I get to choose a Hebrew name.

I'm so excited for you.

Well, for the baby.

Oh, for the baby.

So this time next week, Jesse Stevens will be a married woman.

I will.

I don't want the out loudest to panic

because I know what they're thinking.

They're thinking what's going to happen to our Friday show

if Jesse's getting married on Friday.

We can record it early if you don't mind.

Yeah, it will happen.

It'll be coming live from the wedding.

We'll be like, Jesse, quick, get those vows over with.

We've got to get in the studio.

Mia, you have a quick recommendation before we go.

I do.

My recommendation is two things.

It's a book and it's also a book club.

It's a book that I found out about because of a book club

that's run by my friend Beck and her friend Jane.

They've got a number of book clubs and they're online book clubs

and they're these incredible ways to connect with other women

to sort of read books.

Men can join too, I think.

But one of the books that they are discussing

is The Angry Women's Choir by an Australian author

called Meg Bignell.

And it's blurb says a heartwarming and uplifting story

about a remarkable group of women who discover

they are all capable of incredible things

if they're strong enough and angry enough to take up the cause.

It's such a great title.

It's a great title.

I've seen it everywhere.

That's my title.

And I can really imagine it being a movie.

It's brilliant.

So we'll put a link to the Beck and Jane book club

and also The Angry Women's Choir.

You can get that wherever you get books.

Quick recommendation for something else to listen to.

If you're watching Daisy Jones on The Six,

which Mia and I are, Jesse is not.

Look, I don't know what she's doing.

It's like anyone would think she was busy.

She's helping me find a dress for who I am.

But Emma Gillespie, our amazing producer is.

Anyway, we have recorded a special sub-zip

that was all about that.

Obviously it wasn't.

It was before the finale.

So we kind of go up to about episode five, six.

There are a few spoilers,

but Mia has one really big bug where she can't get past.

And I bet a lot of out louders will share it too.

So the link is in the show notes.

If you're watching Daisy Jones on The Six,

come and debrief with us.

That is all we've got time for.

Mama Mia out loud today and this week.

Thank you for listening.

We love you lots.

Today's show was produced as always by Emma Gillespie

with audio production from Leah Porges

and assistant production from Susanna Makin.

And we'll see you next week.

Bye.

We do love you lots.

Bye.

Bye.

Shout out to any Mama Mia subscribers listening.

If you love the show and want to support us as well,

subscribing to Mama Mia is the very best way to do so.

There is a link in the episode description.

Machine-generated transcript that may contain inaccuracies.