Mamamia Out Loud: An Unpopular Opinion About The Vulnerability Epidemic

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Mamma Mia Out Loud!

Hello and welcome to Mamma Mia Out Loud.

It's what women are actually talking about on Friday, the 28th of July.

I'm Holly Wainwright.

I'm Mia Freedman.

And I'm Claire Steedon.

And on the show today, we are constantly being asked to feel sorry for the world's most successful people.

And I'm not proud of this opinion, but I'm a little bit over it.

You've also been hearing dilemmas about when is too soon to announce a pregnancy.

But today we're being asked when is too late.

And best and worst of the week, which include a skin condition, screaming at the movies and the 80s.

But first, Mia.

If you've got little ears around and they don't know what sex is, maybe press pause or put on some headphones.

In case you missed it, the world's most dangerous sex position has been named and shamed in an article by The Guardian.

And it is the reverse cowgirl.

If you are wondering what this sex position actually is, it has been described as when the man lies on his back with the woman sitting on top facing away from him.

So like a cowgirl, but in reverse.

In reverse.

So why is this the most dangerous sex position, you may ask?

Well, that's because the nature of the position can allegedly lead to cases of penile fractures.

Nobody wants a snapped dong.

Because the cowgirl is riding too hard.

The wrong way.

No, because it bends.

Yeah, pushes forward.

Yeah.

And it bends it back.

And that's not the way it's meant to go.

Apparently it's responsible for up to 50% of broken penises.

Oh, I have actually not experienced a broken penis myself in my situation, but I've got friends who have.

I've got one friend who has.

You hear us now.

But I'm going to say, is it problematic because it's only dangerous for the men?

Yes.

What about the most dangerous sex position for a woman?

So Holly put this in and I said, Holly, sexist is always because this.

Oh, so sorry.

We're only considering things dangerous when they affect 50% of the population.

I don't care what's dangerous for a man.

So I went deep.

That is not meant to be a dirty joke.

I went deep on the internet to find what's the most dangerous position for women.

And it will surprise you.

What is it?

Doggy.

Apparently you can tear your badge.

Yeah.

I think reverse cowgirl can also give you a UTI.

Okay.

Because of the angle of the pen.

Yeah.

Anything that irritates your urethra.

Okay.

Look, it's been a while since I've done reverse cowgirl.

But my memory of that position is that it's not ideal.

No.

Not my favorite.

Not comfortable.

No.

I like that it's dangerous actually.

So next time a man suggests it.

Exciting.

You say very dangerous for you, sir.

Better not.

Better not.

I'm a little nervous about bringing the topic I'm bringing today.

Because what we do at Out Loud, friends, is we tell each other.

We've got like a message board and we tell each other.

We say, I'd quite like to talk about this.

I was thinking about this.

I've seen this story.

And we share links.

We share links.

And I put this opinion in the other day.

Like a couple of weeks ago.

And then I was too scared and I immediately backtracked and Claire Stephen said,

I would like to fight you on that.

And I was like, no, no, no, no, no.

I'm not ready.

I don't think I'm ready now.

But anyway, here we go.

I am over really, really successful people talking about how miserable they are.

Let me explain.

I was scrolling the other day and I read a headline that just sort of set me off.

You know, when you just get set off.

You were having a day, sweetie.

I was having a day and I was just like, that's enough now.

It was EL James.

If you don't know who EL James is, she is the woman who wrote the 50 Shades series.

She went from zero to a hundred at an enormous speed.

A long time ago, though.

A long time ago.

The headline of this story was,

I've sold 165 million books and I'm in therapy.

And I was like, I love it.

I don't care.

EL James.

World's tiniest violin.

Writing in the Sunday Times.

EL James admitted, I have imposter syndrome.

Knowing I've sold 165 million books doesn't make it any easier.

I find it really depressing.

Blah, blah, blah.

Now, I don't want to get into EL.

She can feel how she wants to feel.

Her feelings are valid and I understand that at some level,

it's helpful for us all to understand that we can be rich and we can be famous

and we can still be screwed up.

Like wherever you go, there you are.

That's what people say.

But it feels like the latest and possibly like the furthest field of just wall paper

of everybody, no matter how successful and fabulous they are,

showing their vulnerability and their authentic selves.

Holly wants a lesser bash, please.

And it's like now table stakes.

Now, it sucks to be anxious or heartbroken or suffer from feelings of inadequacy.

I get that, right?

But it sucks a lot more to suffer from all those things and not have any money

or status or achievements that you can point at that would make you feel proud.

It's a voice.

I'm not proud of this.

That nagged at me a lot when I was reading Prince Harry's spare.

Why?

He suffered an unimaginable loss.

We all know that.

He did.

Now I feel like a dick because I just made fun of you.

No, it's okay because I'm going to make it worse.

It's all right.

When his mother died in such a brutal, sudden public way.

But there are kids who lose a parent in horrific circumstances,

who live in poverty and dysfunction and who have no support networks to draw on,

no resources to help them.

And at that point, their lives get immeasurably worse.

Now I know before I know what Mia's going to say.

It's not the suffering Olympics.

I was just going to agree with you, Jesus.

Well, no, but it's not a competition.

Like all these people can be sad.

I totally get that.

Suffering is suffering.

But it feels like every single celebrity and influencer and yes,

even people like us have to make it really clear all the time that our lives are bad

and that we deserve bags of empathy, understanding,

even while we ask you to buy shit from us all the time.

So two things I want to discuss around this before Claire Stevens throws

something at my head.

When we stopped valuing aspiration because I think we used to like be really

into aspiration, right?

We looked at the people who had all the handbags and everything and we were

like, oh, yes, we all want to be like them.

And it's not cool to value that anymore.

We value victimhood, suffering.

And it's become absolutely imperative that everyone who is asking something

from us, so read my book, watch my show, listen to my show, buy my product.

You have to have a sub story to share.

Not entirely new this because when I used to work in magazines,

we used to do it too.

We'd be like a celebrity would said want to be in your magazine and you'd say,

what are you going to give me for that?

Like in a less obvious way, we'd be like postnatal depression.

Have you got anything you want to give us there?

And if not, you're like, hmm, they're boring.

But also my other point and then I promise I'm going to shut up.

My other concern is that if the loudest people talking about poor mental health

are the ones whose mental health was clearly not an obstacle for them to achieve

amazing things, atypical things, things that people would die to achieve.

Are we sending a message to everyone that there is no excuse not to be amazing at all times,

not to achieve, not to climb to the top.

Look at me.

I'm not doing well, but I'm also doing very, very, very well.

Claire Stevens, am I a monster for sometimes wishing all the rich and beautiful people

would stop telling me how miserable they are?

You're a bit of a monster, yes.

On that last point, I somewhat get where you're coming from because I have thought before

that sometimes we get a skewed idea of what mental illness looks like because when your

idea of being unwell is looking at people like Katy Perry and Bella Hadid and Lena Dunham,

they're all extremely high functioning.

And I worry that that misrepresents the messiness and chaos and impact of mental health issues.

I will say as a side note, the EL James thing, the reason you bristled at that is because

it's a humble brag.

The imposter syndrome stuff and like, I've sold this many books and it's hard for me

and you don't know how hard it is for me to be successful.

That, I don't see as authentic vulnerability.

I see that as a humble brag and it is annoying.

But more broadly, I think, I think it is.

I can't wait for me to weigh in on this one.

I think it is a gift when high profile people who appear to have it all and who have tangible

achievements that most of us could only ever dream of share that the reality behind it is more complicated.

Because it points to the fact that the search for meaning and happiness is a fundamental

part of the human condition and it doesn't matter how much money you have, how many books

you sell, how admired you are by the masses, you still have to contend with you.

So what?

Okay.

These are my two reasons why I actually find that so liberating and motivating.

One is it's inspiring to deal with your shit now because there's no magic wand that's going

to sort your demons out.

It doesn't matter about any external validation you may ever achieve.

You have to deal with your shit now.

Now is as good a time as any.

And secondly, it's a good reminder that certain emotional experiences like jealousy and regret

and self criticism are normal and don't reflect reality.

So when I was kind of thinking about the concept for but are you happy?

I'd been listening to choose your podcast where you interview people who are Holly's

worst nightmare.

I do want to be clear that I love that show.

But anyway, go on.

So I had been listening to how to fail with Elizabeth Day and I'd listened to a few episodes

that had really got me.

One was Graham Norton describing himself as a failed actor.

Another one was Jamie Dornan speaking about the sense of shame he feels that he never

graduated from university because obviously he was pursuing another great career.

The other one was Minnie Driver talking about her shame that she never got married.

So she's obviously had this incredible career.

But in her personal life, she's always felt quite self conscious about that.

And it reminded me that these thoughts and narratives that you tell yourself may be things

that no one else thinks about you, even the rest of the world.

I also think, Holly, what you're missing is that there are elements of fame that are not

conducive to good mental health.

But that's not news to me.

I've never looked at anyone famous and thought that looks great.

It's an awful thing.

Someone like Prince Harry totally agreed.

There are people who would experience, you know, death of a parent and not have anyone

to live with, like have to go into foster care.

Exactly.

Happens all the time.

Yes.

However, there is also, as you said, it's not the suffering Olympics.

And Prince Harry going through what he went through, there were certain challenges of that

that someone in another situation wouldn't have gone through.

And I do think the way that fame works, especially now when our idea of fame has broadened,

more people are famous.

But again, my point is so what?

Like, so I know that Brad Pitt or Katy Perry or whoever has problems in their life.

So what?

There are four reasons, whole people who appear to have a lot of good fortune on the outside

need to use their hardship or an example of their hardship or suffering as insurance

or a defense against tall poppy syndrome.

Because if anyone is just, I've sold 165 million books, I'm stoked.

I eat money for breakfast.

Probably that wouldn't make them, which brings me to number two, women more than anyone else

must be vulnerable and talk about their failures to be likable.

And we've talked about this on the show before when we've said, you mentioned how to fail.

Elizabeth Day's podcast.

My first memory was called mistakes motherhood and magazines.

My second one was called work, strife balance.

It's directly proportionate to how much success you have.

You have to show an equal amount of suffering.

And that doesn't mean you have to fake it.

But once upon a time...

Because all lives are suffering, right?

Of course, there will be suffering, says Buddha.

But at one point, all people showed was the glossy, fancy outside, which was insufferable.

I think we all agree, right?

The way you're saying it, it does make it sound as though it's performative

and that women are using it strategically.

My own question is if we've bent the stick too far the other way,

because you're so right.

It used to be, as I was saying, like aspiration was cool, show me the shiny stuff.

Now we're done with the shiny stuff.

Have we gone too far that we now only listen if you will tell me all your stuff?

I think that a couple of things happened at the same time.

When I first wrote about having anxiety, I was incredibly daunted in doing that,

similar to writing about miscarriage.

I know it sounds absurd to think about it now, but that was only a few years ago

and it was so stigmatized and it was seen as I felt so abnormal when I was going through it.

Now that it's become the fabric of our conversations and our culture,

as you say, everybody talks about anxiety, people talk about depression,

we have an awareness and a vocabulary of mental health that we didn't before

and don't necessarily think that people are making it up.

I just think that people are as comfortable talking about it now,

which is surely a good thing, but I do share what you say.

But the third thing I'm going to say, which is shame on you, Holly Wainwright,

is that the reason they all do it is journalism.

It's a good story.

When you say, does EL James have to talk about her imposter syndrome and her therapy

if she wants us to buy something?

Yes.

It's a better headline.

It's a better story.

It's more interesting, not just because it's sensational,

but it's because it's the grain of sand in the oyster that makes the pearl.

Like Australian story, when I was talking about doing Australian story,

I knew that they'll never just do, oh, look at this success business story,

because firstly, that's not real life.

But secondly, it's just not interesting.

It's much more interesting what you talk about and going,

oh, it looks all perfect from the outside, but it's not.

Having said that, I do share what both of you say.

I think it's really interesting.

You're Northern English, Manchurian, just get on with it.

Stop whinging.

You're bloody lucky.

I get that.

I do get that.

I'm trying not to be that.

No, no.

But I understand that.

It's in me.

Yeah.

And I also think, Claire, what you say about it can feel like they're taking up all the

oxygen for the people who are really so unwell with either mental illness or physical illness

that they can't get out of bed or they can't hold down a job or they can't hold down a

relationship.

I think you said that before, is written about this beautifully, that if the only people

that are the faces of say, schizophrenia or bipolar are very successful and high functioning

in other areas of their life, that just further stigmatizes it.

Where are the stories of the people who can't live properly.

I know how complex this is because I also know that, I mean,

Mama Mere is absolutely built on this and I've experienced it myself that we all know

sharing vulnerabilities and sharing difficulties makes other people feel seen and that's really

important and raising awareness of things is really important. But I just can't get

this thing out of my head that's like, now that it's everywhere, it just feels like a

dog whistle to me that's a little bit like, it doesn't matter what your problems are,

you could be me too.

But you also nailed the part about how what our culture values at the moment is victimhood

and suffering.

That's the nature of being authentic. It's not authentic to say, actually, I'm really

happy right now. Like, people don't want to hear that.

But that's because the worst thing you can say to someone is that you're privileged.

Not the worst thing, but that's about like a really bad thing to say to someone is that

you're privileged. So everybody is in a defensive crouch or a reflexive crouch because they're

trying to show, hey, I am privileged, but also there's this.

I disagree, Holly. I'm seeing things differently. I know that you can look at media and every

now and then I do see really high profile person has been interviewed and they're saying

something about their personal lives and you kind of roll your eyes a little bit. I get

that. But the idea that people are sitting in interviews being like, I'm fucking miserable,

they're not like a fame and having a profile and promoting stuff is all about saying that

you're in a really good place and you're really happy and I think it is still rare for people

to come out and say, I'm not doing well. I think that's why we respond so viscerally

to it because it means something to us. Maybe I'm on the wrong algorithm because I do feel

like my Instagram is wall-to-wall. I'm not doing well. And wall-to-wall people just posting

pictures of themselves being sad and saying, I wanted to show you behind the curtain. Now,

I appreciate that. Holly would like the curtain to just go back up. I do. I really appreciate

that. I don't want to sound like a monster like genuinely because I think, you know,

empathy is it's everything. We need to understand that. But I feel like we're being asked all

the time to put our empathy and our sympathy to people who have everything.

Having everything is subjective.

But they have so much fortune. I'm not saying they don't deserve empathy. Of course they

do. Like, of course they do. And the people who are close to them, we all know that nobody's

life is shiny all the time. But I think we know that now. Like, I think we know that

now. And I feel like, can't I just go, that's amazing. For example, we've been talking all

week about Barbie. Greta Gerwig right now, she must be, well, I hope she is so happy,

so proud. Like, I hope she is so happy, so proud that this thing that she worked so hard

on and that she put all of these resources into and that she convinced the world to do

and they did it and they love it, that she's loving it. And I don't feel like she needs

to tell me, oh my God, Robbie or any of the people that, like, you know what? It's not

as good as it looks. I don't want to know that.

I'm interested. And she has said in interviews, like, yeah, I get up every hour just to stare

at my bed. She's got a newborn. She's got a newborn. And so the fact is that her life,

like life is never uncomplicated like that. And I find this somewhat ironic, Holly, because

obviously, you know, ideas of fame and all of that are so relative. So I look at you

as somebody who has it all and I see you release a book and I'm like, oh my God, that is so

exciting. And you have a book launch and it's a bestseller and all of that. But you're still

contending with your own shit around achievement around.

Can you write about it?

Yeah, I do. It's true. I mean, I am guilty of doing this too. And like, it is my immediate

reflex. If somebody says to me, the bookstores are not really like I didn't get whatever

I'd think he wants it. Like, I mean, so and so is doing so much better than me. Like,

that's my instinct and my reflex. So I know it's real, but I just feel like it's reached

this new level where I just sometimes wish the rich and beautiful people would stop asking

for our sympathy.

You got a little bit of a dilemma there.

Hi, Mama Mia out loud.

I have a dilemma. Please, I need your help.

It's time for us to answer a dilemma. And today it is all about the right way to announce

a pregnancy. So this is from a listener. I'm after some advice. I'm currently 19 weeks

pregnant and I don't know why, but I'm finding it really hard to tell people. A immediate

family was okay, but telling extended family, friends and colleagues feels strange. I think

it's because I'm anxious. I had what my doctor says was probably an early miscarriage a couple

of months before this pregnancy. And I've had some test results, mine, not the babies

that have come back not quite right and have played on my mind. I think I have a solution

to the conundrum of telling people. But I guess my question is, is this normal? I feel

like I'd be happy to be invisible for the rest of my pregnancy, have a baby and then

have everyone know then. But unfortunately, I'm not invisible. And I've started dressing

weird. And when people ask me to commit to something in December, I know I can't. I've

never been more excited for anything in my life. And it's something I've always wanted.

But even though I'm almost halfway, the anxiety hasn't subsided. I've had people close to

me feel positive and excited from the moment they knew they were pregnant. But I'm terrified

of something going wrong. Has anyone else experienced this? Does it pass? And what if

it doesn't? Please help. Just to note, before we get your advice, this dilemma was written

by me because it is in fact my dilemma.

Bless Stevens is having a baby.

She hasn't told anyone.

So the telling people problem has been solved. We love a dilemma that solves a problem mid

dilemma. Correct.

But the rest of the question still stands.

I love this question, Claire Stevens. And I really need to very quickly go on the record

to say this does not qualify in the previous conversation.

I'm not going to say stop whinging and just be happy about being pregnant.

I don't care about your complicated feelings.

I promise. I promise. That's not the case.

Mia Friedman.

Should Claire Stevens have told people she was pregnant a long time ago?

Well, I've been perplexed because I guessed you were over at my house and you for the

second time didn't have a drink.

And I just thought, I just said to you, not so basically bullied you into telling me

in front of the whole family.

And I was thrilled.

But even then, that was only a few weeks ago.

You kept it quiet for a really, really long time.

I completely understand because at first I was what's wrong with you.

Why don't you just accept?

Is this some weird thing where you don't feel like you're worthy of being made a fuss of?

And then I was like, oh, Jesse was happy to be made a fuss of.

She sort of weed on the stick and picked up the phone pretty much.

But then we spoke about it a bit more.

And I really could understand this idea of nerves and anxiety.

And I particularly had it in my second pregnancy.

I think it's a rainbow pregnancy, the one you have after a miscarriage.

And that was my when I was pregnant with my daughter.

And I didn't tell anyone until I was about 16 weeks as well.

I was incredibly anxious and I couldn't deal with everybody else's anxiety on my

behalf, because I'd lost my pregnancy before quite late.

And I remember that there were people close to me who were quite angry

that I hadn't told them until then.

Yeah, they felt really hurt when I say angry.

They felt really hurt that I hadn't.

And I remember very clearly when I just decided to tell people because I think

someone said to me, probably my therapist, at a certain point,

you just have to have faith in this pregnancy.

I thought, yeah, I do.

And I did.

I think I'm going to cry.

Yeah, I haven't been bitching about people crying.

I think I'm going to cry because I think it's so relatable.

You know, we have all these conversations now.

We've run lots of stories on Mama Mia about the convention, right?

Is you wait 12 weeks to tell people outside of your immediate circle.

And a lot of people have written some very pertinent commentary about that,

saying, tell people so that if something does go wrong, you'll have support.

That's one of the other arguments, too.

But it is the most personal decision.

There could be nothing more personal than this.

And you don't owe anybody anything.

I'm in awe of the fact that you don't actually even have to tell your boss

unless you want, yeah, awkward in this situation.

But in New South Wales, at least, and certainly if it's going to be paid.

But if you want to, you have to give 10 weeks notice.

But otherwise, you don't have to tell anyone.

You could just do a full Kylie Jenner and just not even mention it

and just walk around and when people look at you, you just go, what, like, what?

You're going to say it?

You're going to say it? Exactly.

And I think that's your absolute right and privilege.

And that's what's working inside your head.

It's really interesting that pregnancy is the first one of the first big moments

where you realise that other people feel a lot of ownership of you, you know,

that kind of like they give you all the advice and they grab the belly

and all the unsolicited information coming your way.

And you're like, oh, but ultimately this is just between you and the baby and Rory.

And I think it's kind of beautiful that you've kept it this gorgeous secret.

I have to say that I don't like to speculate about pregnancies

because I've been burnt many times in that department.

But the thing that gave it away for me about Claire Stevens

is that she started wearing like really dressy up clothes to the office.

But she came in one day in this beautiful dress and I was like,

oh, you're going somewhere because sometimes, you know,

at work, we've got a function that night or, you know, a photo shoot.

Or are you going somewhere?

And she's like, it's just nothing else really fits me at the minute.

And I was like, oh, this mum and me are office.

No one would ever say that it's not the place where women walk around

and I've put on a few tears. Oh, no.

Like, that is not how it works.

Even though I kind of was.

And I didn't say anything.

Of course. If you tried, you'll be love bombed.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

If you would, you'd be like, you're beautiful.

You are not your weight.

I am so proud of you.

So what I want to know now, though, is that now that you are telling people

what's happening with the anxiety.

So I've started to tell more friends and extended family, all of that.

And I feel like maybe I'm just feeling a bit flat.

And so my emotions can't meet their emotions.

I'm sort of telling people and they're like, that's so exciting.

And I'm like, I just feel a bit emotionally flat.

And I think it's because I am contending with things I didn't expect to contend with.

I was the thing I was most surprised about,

because it's interesting you say that was the giveaway, Holly,

because I thought the giveaway was that I was in the office, you know,

those first 12 weeks, and I was so nauseous that I was eating constantly,

like constantly, because when you don't have food in your mouth,

you feel nauseous.

And I felt so self-conscious that everyone was going to be like, Claire.

Not only if you walk around with little dried crackers in a bag.

Yeah, but I was just constantly eating stuff.

And I went to see my psychologist and I was talking about it.

And I had a full blown breakdown about the body image side of it.

I was like, I don't know how I'm going to do this.

I have always felt whether imagined or real that you have some control over your body.

I've never had any disorder.

I'd say, like, disordered eating, like not not a clinical.

It's also an area being a woman in the world.

But it's also an area you know a great deal about.

Yes. And so I didn't expect to have that reaction.

And especially in the early stages where you don't have a clear belly,

but you have just kind of changed shape, like just expanded, changed shape.

And you feel so self-conscious about it.

And the fact is that I have been eating a whole lot

and my body has changed more significantly than it ever has.

And I'm only at this stage.

And I feel complicated about it.

And I know so glad you said that because I think it's really important

that women can say that.

And I know that the right answer in my psychologist was great

and said, like, your body is not about you right now.

Your body is about that baby.

And if it takes, you know, five packets of chips to get through the day,

you do that and you do not feel an ounce of guilt about it.

You know, I'm even following somebody on Instagram

who's, you know, at about my stage of pregnancy.

And it's very like, very proud.

We're very proud of our body and we're very excited about the changes

and inactive wear and that sort of thing.

And I couldn't think of anything worse.

And I wonder if that changes.

Maybe that does change when it's, I mean, obviously,

I'm not going to tell you how to feel or what you will feel.

But I know for me, there's a point at which you just look visibly undeniably

pregnant and in some ways, that moment's quite freeing.

I remember knowing.

Yeah, and I remember that Jesse saying this, I was pregnant in summer

and I used to go to the beach and like roll, literally like roll like a barrel.

That bread would like roll me into the ocean.

It was the only place I'd be cool.

And sadly, being a woman in the world, it was probably the only time in my life

I have not felt self-conscious in a swimsuit.

But I was like, I can't do anything about this.

Yeah.

And this is a big round, beautiful top.

Like that's a different stage to what you've been going through.

And everybody's so different.

And I know there are lots of women who feel like you do.

And also, I have a bit of this in me all the time where I'm like,

if you're outwardly happy, proud, like it's like you're inviting disaster.

And I know that you struggle with that too.

So sometimes you're like, when people are like superstitions, you're like,

well, yes, if it all works out, like me or I have had miscarriages.

So I was very, I also felt that like, don't congratulate me yet.

We're not there yet.

You know, but there has to be a moment of, as Mia says, trusting.

And mum said that to me.

She was like, do you remember when you were at school and you used to tell me

that you would purposely worry about something, like worry about an exam or an

assignment, because you thought it was protective, that if you worried about it,

it would mean something didn't happen.

She's like, I think that's what you're doing with your pregnancy.

There's a reason that women do that.

We dress for her tragedy so that we feel more prepared.

Yeah, she's not wrong about that.

And I also think that the stuff about the body and the stuff about

being anxious, whether the pregnancy will be OK, is about the big, big battle

that you have in motherhood that's forever about the lack of control.

Yeah, yeah.

And your physical body is the physical manifestation of the fact that you have no control.

And that is huge to get your head around.

I think everything you're going through is normal.

Doesn't make it any easier.

We're all just so happy.

We have to have a couple of questions for the out loud as they'll want to know.

So baby is due December 24.

She's a troll.

She's a little troll.

This also makes her one of us because I'm December the 20th.

You're the 21st.

Yeah. So weird people whose birthdays are close to Christmas.

Yeah. So that will make her how much younger than Luna?

Just over six months.

And she's a girl. Obviously.

Oh, sorry. Little girl.

Gender reveal. Little girl.

Nice one, huh? Sorry.

It occurred to me the other day that me and Jesse's daughter's maybe in the same

year at school, which is very odd.

And then with the worry thing, I started going down this thing where I was like,

what if Jesse's baby's really smart and my baby's not very academic?

Then we do it and then they'll be doing the HSC at the same time.

And then it popped into my head.

I went, no, Luna will do the IB.

You know, the international baccalaureate kids do.

I was like, I bet Luna will do the IB.

I can't believe you're already thinking about what your daughter's going to get

out of the HSC. Oh, Jesus.

It ain't normal. It ain't normal.

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It's time for best and worst, because it's Friday, time to wrap up the week.

I will go first.

My worst, I feel like now everything is going to get Holly's ire because it's just complaining.

I promise, maybe there was just a moment in time.

I think I was having a bad day.

I think Holly is cranky.

So my worst this week, someone said to me that I was a lot this week.

And when I am overwhelmed or overwhelmed,

I'm like, I don't know, I don't know, I don't know, I don't know, I don't know.

When I am overwhelmed or overexcited, I am a lot.

I mean, I'm a lot at the best of times, but there's nothing that makes me feel

more ashamed than someone telling me I'm a lot.

And I just had a little quiet cry and just felt that sting of, you know,

and you just like, you feel disgusting and you're like, what is this emotion?

Am I hurt? And I'm like, no, I'm ashamed. I'm ashamed.

So anyway, I won't dwell on that.

My best is actually not my best.

It's Jesse's best or might not even be her best,

but it's something that she told me that she did.

She went on Monday to a Mums and Bubs session of Barbie.

So in our group chat, Holly recommended,

because we'd all been to see Barbie over the weekend,

and Jesse's like, I really want to go.

I'm looking for a Mums and Bubs session.

And Holly's like, I used to go to this cinema at this time.

And Jesse looked and it was still on all these years later.

And she went and it was Barbie, of course.

And everyone was there.

She said everybody in Sydney that had a baby was at that session

because I had my kids a long time ago.

This wasn't around when I had my kids.

We've got a little voice note that she sent us of the noise in the cinema.

She said the only bad thing is that there weren't subtitles.

But she said it was like everyone had prams.

Every mother looked quite shell shocked.

There were newborns.

There were kids probably up to the age of about six months.

She did a little video.

There were kids doing headstands on the chairs.

And I just loved the optimism of the Mums.

Like there were people changing babies in aisles and breastfeeding.

And I just loved that because when I had my kids,

I felt really, really lonely and really isolated.

I think there should have been an archway

that all those women should have gone through

and we should have given them a big clap like football is going on

to the field at Grand Final because getting out of the house

with the babies is really hard.

I used to go to that Mums and Bubs session on Monday mornings

when I was on Matley with Matilda and it was the highlight of my week.

And the best story about that is very quick,

is that when I went back to work, Brent took over paternity leave

and he went every Monday morning too.

And there was one day that he was there because you go whatever's on.

So I saw all kinds of weird movies just to go and do something.

I saw some really weird movies.

But he was there once in the ocean of women and babies

with six month old Matilda watching Eat, Pray, Love.

And he sent me a message being like, I think things have gone really weird.

Quick, best and worst, I've mentioned this before.

Why won't people just get over fancy dress parties?

I know I'm such a grinch.

I know that for some people this episode is brought to you by Holly's Grinch.

Holly's a Grinch today.

I know that for some people, a theme party is the pinnacle of happiness.

I hate it.

I'm going to an event on Saturday.

That's a school event.

I was really happy to go.

Lots of my friends will be there, my new-

What's the theme?

My new-ish friends.

It's 80s.

So I was really excited to go until I saw it was fancy dress

and then I didn't want to go.

Like, literally, I hated so much that I was like, can't wait to go.

Now I want to stay home.

Why didn't you just ask me to bring you something you'd be curious?

Well, the thing is, so my worst was the angst and grinchiness.

But my best has been that I went in the out loud as Facebook group

and I said, help a lazy girl to steal a trademark line from Claire and Jesse.

Go to an 80s night without having to make any effort at all.

Like something in my wardrobe.

And the out loud is a genius.

They've given me so many great ideas and double denim for the win.

Oh, genius.

Great idea.

Going to do a double denim.

Going to do a big hair.

And I am in.

That's my best class.

Stephens wants your best and wins.

You've got to post a photo of it for the out loud.

Oh, I will, friends.

I have recurring dermatitis around my eyes.

Oh, no, that's really annoying.

And I'm sick of it.

It's so bad.

I definitely did something with skincare that has aggravated.

It's like contact dermatitis, but it just keeps coming back.

You've disrupted the acid mantle.

I have, I have, but a long time ago.

So if I, Holly, Holly and I were there in lockdown when we put every serum

known to man on our face.

That was the trigger.

I went too hard and now I've got damage.

So I did this thing where for months I just used CeraVe and it went away.

And I was like, oh, my gosh, I'm amazing.

And I was telling my friend, you know,

I'm amazing, problem solved.

And she was like, just promise me you won't take any risks.

Like just keep it safe.

And I went, oh, of course, tried hyaluronic acid.

We can't use anything.

So honestly, people with your fancy skincare is so sad for me.

Oh, it's so bad and makeup makes it worse.

And it just lasts for days and days.

It's tragic.

It's tragic.

That's sad.

But my best.

I have been very restrained from making Luna my best every week.

Because obviously she is.

Obviously every best is really my second best.

So this week I'm doing it because Maya did it.

So I'm allowed.

I have my first solo babysitting opportunity on Saturday.

And I cannot wait opportunity.

Hasn't even happened yet and it's your best.

It's my absolute best.

It's going to be me and Luna.

No one telling me to calm down or that I'm too much.

No one asking me to hand her back, just two best friends.

And to add another level of best, our producer for cancelled,

the wonderful Tulissa Vizazz, got a lazy girl onesie made for Luna.

It's this pink and it's tiny onesie that says lazy girl on the front.

And so all I'm going to do, I'm going to put her in a lazy girl onesie

and a stupid little hat and some socks.

And then I'm going to get comfortable and we are just going to eat and sleep

and cuddle and I'll stare at her and talk to her.

And I just I'll probably lock the door.

I hope she doesn't scream uncontrollably.

How many hours are we doing?

She would see.

I haven't even got that far.

Like the irony is they're probably going out for half an hour.

But I'm like, I have a day every second.

I have a day.

I have a quick recommendation.

Now, it's this is a little bit of a reverse recommendation

like the reverse cowgirl.

So there's a story of mom and me this week that went a bit nuts.

And it was called I tried the happy dog hack with my husband.

It reignited our relationship.

I heard that headline.

It reminded me of some TikToks I've seen lately

where women are performatively excited

when their partners come home from work.

And it made me want to vomit a little bit in my mouth

because, A, the dynamic here is always woman at home.

Man comes in door.

Woman goes, darling, so wonderful to see you.

Oh, my gosh.

Haven't you been working hard all day?

You're just so done.

I'm like, is that literally what she says?

Pretty much, right?

But I realized I was being too hasty to judge.

I read this story.

It went crazy on mom and me.

But also, I realized that that is actually the same theory

that my mom told me to apply to my children.

And I do.

One of the things she said to me when I was becoming a mom

with Matilda, she was like, everybody needs someone in their life

who is always happy to see them.

And you are that person for your kids.

So like a dog.

This is happy dog theory, which I apply more to the children.

Brent does not need this kind of validation in his life.

Most men, in my experience, do not.

Well, he can be your happy dog.

He can be happy for you.

I think that it applies can apply to anyone that you live with

or even anyone that you see.

I really like that because people often say if you've got teenage kids

and you want someone to be happy when you get home, get a dog,

because no one is ever as happy to see you as your dog.

It's true. My dog is always very happy to see me.

So what do you do?

When I see my children, whether they're walking in the door

or I'm walking in the door, I always.

And I mean, obviously, occasionally, I'm a bit grinchy like today,

but I always I'm like, oh, babe, like happy to see them smile, hug.

And they're like, but I think deep down.

Yeah. And every time I see them in the morning,

I don't do the whole happy dog.

That would be weird. Roll over on my back.

Start weighing.

LBL, like blood leakage.

Although who knows?

Oh, no. It happens to the best of us.

Make a point of the smile, the acknowledgement.

I'm happy to see you because I think we all need some people in our lives.

You're always happy to see us and arts.

I love that.

Recommendation is pick a person this week and happy dog them.

Oh, I love that.

It's gorgeous.

If you're looking for something else to listen to on Fridays,

we drop our special subscriber episodes where we unpack the new season of

and just like that.

Hayden's back.

Hayden's back.

Oh, and today we dive into his return and we have lots of strong feelings.

We have some interesting words.

I have a very specific reaction to the first moment we got to see

Hayden on and just like that.

My word is flaccid.

Spoiler.

A link to that episode will be in the show notes.

That's all we've got time for.

A Mama Mirror Out Loud.

Thank you for listening to Australia's number one news and pop culture show.

This episode was produced by Emily

with audio production by Leah Porges

and the executive producer is Tulissa Bazaas and we'll see you on Monday.

Bye.

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Machine-generated transcript that may contain inaccuracies.