The News Agents: A financial turning point for women's football? The Lionesses reach the WC final

This is a Global Player original podcast.

Absolutely sublime!

A scare at one end.

A clinical finish at the other.

And England are heading for the World Cup final.

Was it good? It was bloody great.

They played fantastically.

It was a great semi-final.

Australians gave it everything.

And England came out on top.

And I don't know what you're doing on Sunday morning at 11 o'clock.

But I have booked my place on the sofa and I ain't moving until it is done.

Women's football has been talked about for years.

But it really does feel that this is a turning point.

But how much of a turning point?

That's what we're going to be discussing on today's podcast.

Welcome to the newsagents.

The newsagents.

It's John and later in the podcast we're going to be talking about inflation,

the economy, whether the Tories should be on a victory lap

or whether that is still somewhat premature.

But on the subject of victory laps, the lionesses can certainly be doing that

because that 3-1 victory over Australia in a lively Sydney cauldron was absolutely fantastic.

We're going to have a special match report from there in just a moment.

But there's also something that we want to discuss as well about women's football

and just how it feels so different from the men's game.

I absolutely love football.

I'm a season ticket holder.

I've gone to see England play around the world and in the UK.

And I'm a fan.

But you compare to the final, when we were in the Eurofinals a few years back

and we were playing Italy, so many people were coked up, aggressive,

then stormed the entrances in a kind of day of shame

which should have been a day of joy for England being in the final

and all sorts of people getting attacked for no apparent reason.

You just don't feel that it's like that in the women's game.

It's competitive. It's great sport.

But it just doesn't seem to have the same toxicity as the men's game.

And, you know, there are women players who are openly gay and it's no big deal.

We still do not have a player in the Premier League in the men's game who is gay.

That's just impossible.

And maybe this is a really tedious old fart thing to say.

And frankly, football hooliganism has been in the game pretty much all my adult life.

But is there just a sense in which the joy in the women's game has sort of got lost slightly in the men's game?

I don't know. Before we get to that, let's cross now to Sydney

because pity the people who are English, who live in Australia,

but who may have married an Australian.

We're going to hear now from Max, who was at the game with his Australian wife.

He's English. He's my son.

So what was the atmosphere like, Max?

Incredible. The Australians were incredible.

The English were incredible. It was a great game.

England was superb. Rousseau was star. Tuna star. Millie Bright had the back of star.

I was so proud of them.

Barely any England fans in there at all and they were incredible.

They were so brave.

When Kerr scored, for them to come back and score two was incredible.

And a fantastic night.

How's your wife?

She's good. She's good.

The Matilda's are coming round now and they're applauding.

So they're giving them a huge cheer because the nation has got behind them so much.

This is not a football country.

This is an AFL and rugby country and this is being the biggest story ever.

Sam Kerr is a superstar now.

Other TV channels cancelled their programming.

So everyone can watch the Matilda's.

It's game changing.

This team is completely loved and the country loves them.

So they have changed football and women's sport here forever.

Is it going to be all right with you and Kate tonight?

I mean, you know, she's lost. They've lost.

Yeah, it'll be fine. We're both...

I think there's pride for the Matilda's, pride of England.

These are both two great teams and I think everyone's good.

Everyone's good.

All right. Lovely to talk to you. Love you.

When are you flying down for Sunday?

Exactly. All right. Speak soon.

See you. Bye.

Well, that's the emotion, the flavour inside the ground from my son Max.

Let's talk about some of the sort of colder economics of all of this

because we're joined now by Kieran McGuire

and he is the football finance expert at Liverpool University

and he was also the host of the Price of Football podcast

and Kieran, great to have you on the pod.

Thank you so much for doing this.

Does this change anything in terms of how women's football

is going to be perceived economically?

I think it's a further step along the road

as far as the growth of the game is concerned.

We saw with England winning the European Championships last year

that the national team is certainly capable of selling out a big stadium.

We have seen over the course of 22-23 season

Arsenal have been playing quite a few matches at their stadium

getting crowds of 40, 45,000

which is a significant growth on where we were five years ago.

Winning or losing on Sunday won't make a huge amount of difference

because the game is big enough in its own right

to cope with England not winning the World Cup

but it will maintain that level of interest

at both the grassroots level and a professional level.

I was looking at some numbers saying what the average pay was

the average salary of a woman in the Super League in the UK

which is the equivalent of the Premier League

it is a pittance compared to what Premier League footballers are getting.

It is, I mean certainly the research work that has been undertaken

would indicate we're probably looking at mainly in the 30 to 40,000 pound pay bracket

now the highest paid player in the WSL

is probably on around about 300,000 pounds a year

you drop down into the championship

there's some players on as low as 12

so there is a big range

I think comparing it to the Premier League

I see the logic of that

but the Premier League has now been going for 30 years

and that was on the back of English football

and the Football Association remember it banned the women's game

in effect for 50 years

so I think we ought to be looking at the women's game as a start-up business

and the level of growth which is significant

and whilst the salaries are not necessarily high

what we are seeing especially in relation to some of these England players

is that they are starting to become brands in their own right

and they're now starting to sign the commercial deals

Elisa Russo has just signed up with Oakley along with Kylian Mbappe

that's how high some of these players are regarded by commercial partners

and that is significant isn't it

because the sponsorship deals that you can get

about whose boots you're wearing

and what deodorant you're using

and what shampoo you prefer

those things can bring in huge sums of money

Yes and we've seen that in other sports as well

where the women who have been successful in the sport

you look at the likes of tennis and golf

that they have been able to market themselves

you're potentially appealing to a different demographic

so therefore that attracts in advertisers

different markets, different sponsors and so on

and I think the players are likely to benefit on the back of that

everybody wants to see England holding up that trophy on Sunday

and the money will follow the success

Yeah and the brands presumably see a big plus in associating

identifying with young women footballers

who are in some ways role models for so many others

That's right, they're personable, they're aspirational

if you take a look at the growth of women's grassroots football

it still is a struggle that there are too many schools

where girls can't play football

there are too many towns and cities in the country

where you can't get to join a women's football club

but it's all helping us move in the right direction

and I think the players at the top will reap the rewards

and give something for those lower down

the chain somebody's looked forward to

Yeah, it's just interesting while we're on the subject of the Women's World Cup

that I want to play this clip of Megan Rapinoe

who is probably the most famous woman footballer in the world

in the sense that she was the captain of the US side

and had a very very high profile

Donald Trump absolutely hated her

which probably absolutely added to her profile

but she was sort of asked after the US crashed out

about what she would regard as her greatest achievement

Is there a memory that stands out to you right now in this moment?

I mean, probably equal pay chance after the final

and I think, you know, they were saying equal pay

but could have been saying a lot of things

I think this team has always fought for so much more

and that's been the most rewarding part for me

of course playing in World Cups

and winning championships and doing all that

but to know that we've used our really special talent

to do something that's really changed the world forever

I think that means it most to me

and the players in this locker room here

they're just getting started

and all the players that I've played with obviously

who know what it's like to be in the grind

that's the best part

Equal pay, we're years away from that aren't we?

If you're comparing the women's super league to the Premier League

At the team level, yes

but ultimately the ability to pay wages

is driven by the revenues that any business generates

and the Premier League has a TV deal

which brings in £3 billion a year

you look at the amount paid for the rights by BBC and ITV

of around about £8 million compared to £100 million

that were paid to FIFA for the men's World Cup

so there is a difference at team level

but at a national level

England pay the same amount to both the men and the women

because they are both representing the country

and that's right and proper

And we're talking about this mainly through the prism of England

I was very struck hearing the statistic that in Australia

for the quarter final against France when the Matildas were playing

the viewing figures were the highest

since the opening of the Sydney Olympics in 2000

and you think, wow

there have been some pretty big sporting occasions

since then in Australia

and Australia is a sport mad country

and yet this has clearly captivated

huge percentage of the population

It has and rightly so

people want to be associated with success

they want to be able to fly the flag

if we take a look at viewing figures in 2021 in the UK

with the exception of the passing of the Queen

the highest viewing figures for a live event

was England winning the Euros

so there is certainly a market there

there are eyeballs there on the back of that

and of course that will further attract sponsors

and that will further attract interest into the game

But there were disputes weren't there

over the bonuses that players would get paid

Yes, there is an ongoing dispute

between the England women's team

and the Football Association

I'm not necessarily certain that

the people who were advising the women's team

have conducted themselves particularly well

What does that mean?

I think perhaps sometimes you've got agents

and other people that start quoting telephone numbers

which aren't necessarily realistic

and on the back of that

it's led to dissent

and a fallout between the women's team

and the Football Association

Now the women's team did put out a press release

prior to the start of the tournament

and said, right, we're not happy

about the level of effectively

the bonuses available on the back of success

but we're going to park that, we're going to focus

because it's every player's dream

to play in a World Cup and to win a World Cup

and we've seen that with the quality of the play

and the quality of the coaching

and that issue now has to be resolved

at the end of the tournament

Is there any risk that you get something

that you have in the Olympic Games

where you suddenly find yourself fixating on a sport

that you knew little about

because England are doing really well in it

and for five minutes

we can think of nothing else

except the tactics in how to play a badminton game

or obscure martial art form

where we're in line to win gold

that kind of we have a golden moment now

for women's football

and actually then we sort of just

start to forget about it a bit

I think that there is that

as a potential danger to the sport

but we are seeing the written media

and certainly the broadcast media

have started to embrace the women's game

matches are being broadcast

and I think it's important

there's a combination of both subscription

and free to wear available

so for those people that can't afford subscriptions

they can still gain access to seeing

Arsenal women's team, Manchester City, Chelsea

all of these other teams on a regular basis

we've got to make sure it's not a lost opportunity

as far as the game is concerned going forwards

but if you take a look

at the level of income

generated by the women's game

the clubs now are

I would say on a par with

League 1, League 2

in terms of revenue

so that is a substantial progress

to where we were four or five years ago

and what we've got to do

is to ensure that perhaps some of the mistakes

that have been made in the men's game

where there is

unequal distribution of money doesn't then

transfer to the women's game

because you don't want football to become a procession

or scrapped between two or three clubs

because I don't think the women's game is able

at this stage to deal with that on a club level

you need competitive balance, you need jeopardy

Kieran I think that's a really fascinating point

that you made that the revenue being brought in

by the women's teams

are akin to what you would get in a League 1

or League 2 side

so I mean that would make the argument

it's not just a bolt-on

that Manchester United or Tottenham

or City or whoever

have a women's side just to look good

there is a commercial reason for this

Yes, the clubs are losing money at present

but that's again what you'd expect in a start-up

and if I was owning a football club

and looking for growth

if I've got a stadium which holds 50 or 60,000 people

I know that there's a finite number of time

that the men's team can play there

and fill that out

but as we've seen at Arsenal this year

you are getting fantastic crowds

on the back of that

you can start to sell hospitality packages

you can start to sell merchandise

women's kits are still as expensive as the men's kits

so there is money to be made

we're not there at a point where it's profitable

but then 18 out of 20 teams in the Premier League

lost money on an operational level last season

so the women's game is not alone

Absolutely fascinating Kieran

Thank you so much for being with us

I hope we talk again maybe after Sunday

when we've lifted the World Cup

Absolutely, thank you

That was Kieran Maguire from the Price of Football

podcast and also from the University of Liverpool

and we've heard from my son Max on the podcast today

so in the interests of sibling equality

and to show that I love both my children equally

Anna has asked will we get a bank holiday

if England win the World Cup

I think probably not

but who knows

we'll be back in just a moment

on the economic circumstances

which would allow us to have a bank holiday

This is The News Agents

Welcome back

and delighted to say that I've got some company finally

in the studio I'm no longer Billy Nomates

and our spirit is here

editor of Red Box from The Times newspaper

and regular contributor to The News Agents

and great to have you with us

How are you?

Thank you and well, how are you?

Yeah, I'm doing very well, thank you

We had today the inflation figures from the government

which given the sort of almost lap of honour

they were taking

you would get the impression

that we were back on to the 2% target

which is what inflation should be

and we're nowhere near that

and indeed we're not forecast to be near that

until well into 2025

if I'm correct

Jeremy Hunt did make reference to that today

said we want to get back down to the 2%

but of course Rishi Sunak's target is more around the 5% mark

because he himself pledged to Harvard

back in January

inflation then around 10%

and so he thinks that he is well on course

to do that on account of today's figures

I get the impression that what John Glenn, the chief secretary

to the Treasury is now saying is

well it was always we set ourselves

the most difficult, punishing, impossible target to reach

and I don't think they thought that

I think they thought this was going to be a much easier

nut to crack

Well it's very interesting as a target

because it is one of those targets

where it's not necessarily clear

exactly which government intervention

is going to make a huge difference to that

and I think there was a gamble

in some senses inside number 10

that on account of projected falling energy prices

that would near them towards this target

actually some prices have stayed really doggedly quite high

and I think today's figures

you know food inflation around 14.8%

that will worry people inside number 10

I think we take a closer look at these figures

that's worrying and the other thing to note

is indeed we've seen a fall today

and I think it's fair enough to say

that people should be cheered by that

but there is a projected

rise potentially next month

people have seen warnings from inside the Treasury

saying that they're readying themselves

on account of wage growth for a slight rise next month

and the consequences of that could be huge

because John Glenn, who you mentioned

chief secretary to the Treasury

before the summer resetted indeed

been in talks with Mel Stride

which are ongoing about possible welfare cuts

that was reported in the...

And Mel Stride is the welfare pension secretary?

And that was reported in the Sunday Times

that on account of possible rising inflation

putting possible pressure on rise in state pension

that actually you could see welfare cuts

being needed to pay for this

so there are huge knock-on effects of this

and I know that we have this cycle

whereby every month we focus on the monthly

inflation figures

but I think taking a longer view on this

it's very hard to see how Jeremy Hunt goes into

the budget in the autumn with a considerable amount

of fiscal headroom before the election

The other thing that struck me

looking at the figures this morning

was the numbers suggesting that

wage rises were outpacing

inflation now

and of course that is inflationary

now the Bank of England Governor

didn't exactly make himself very popular

when he started advocating that people needed to take

below inflation pay rises

but if you're going to crack down

on inflation

that is what you need to do

to get more than the rate of inflation

in your pay rise

then you've got more money to spend

and that drives inflation

Yeah and it was interesting yesterday

wasn't it with that news

that kind of 22 year record

in wage rises really have been stagnant

for a long time

that Rishi Sunak was cheered by that

and did make kind of optimistic intonations

to the regard of we're all actually

maybe potentially on a more positive path

out of this

but like I just said

that wage growth for many public sector pay packets

will be kicking in pretty soon

that is part of the reason why I'm saying

that we may well see a rise in inflation

the following month and why today's figures

shouldn't be taken as a kind of indication

that there will just be fall upon fall upon fall

so that itself is something that I think

people inside number 10 will be worried about

Yeah well that was something that

Angela Reina picked up on

to suggest that things had not gone

quite as well

as the government might have us believe

here she is on Sky News

It shows that we're not in the position

that we were in when Liz just

crashed the economy

but it shows that we're still in a very weak position

when we look at ourselves internationally

and as I said the Conservatives

still haven't got a plan on how we

you know tackle the low wage

the low growth and the high tax economy

that they've left us with after 13 years

have been in power

so whilst the inflation rate isn't going up

in the steep curve that it was

people are still going to see prices rise

and people are still going to struggle

and of course these are bills that

families can't get away from

mortgage, your rent, your energy prices

your food prices are all

costs that you can you know

offset that you can't get away with not paying

so it is having an impact on people's

cost of living at the moment

Okay well that was Angela Reina

doing what Labour does

there was a really interesting interview

I thought on the Today programme

between John Glenn the Chief Secretary

and Nick Robinson

over the way the economy

was bouncing back or not

The UK economy has grown

faster than Italy, Japan and Germany

since 2016

If you look at the way

that UK services exports

are growing up 18%

since 2016

if you look at our trade with the EU

is also growing

if you look at the opportunities

that we've taken with CPTPP

to join a 12 trillion

trade bloc

there are significant changes happening

in the UK economy

forgive me Pushey on this

but inflation has not fallen this month

because of anything you can

identify that Rishi Sunak

or you at the Treasury along with

the Chancellor have done has it

Well I think active management of public finances

is a core function

of the Treasury

and this Prime Minister

Laura there was something you said a minute ago

that I thought was really interesting and that's the possibility

of kind of welfare cuts that could affect

the elderly

One of the great things that was introduced

was this so-called triple lock

and just I want you to explain in a second

what that is but also

why it would be so important

and why politically

it is also so risky

So the triple lock and you're right

it is very politically risky and it would be

I think one of the most fascinating decisions

that the Treasury will make in the autumn

The triple lock is a system whereby the state pension

rises in line with whichever is highest

out of inflation, earnings growth

and it's deemed

extremely politically risky to touch it

partly because pensioners are very important voters

but also partly because

and I think this is often missed in the commentary on it

it came in on the back of considerable

financial insecurity for huge numbers of pensioners

one-fifth of pensioners it was estimated

when needing a means-tested top-up

pension credit top-up to their state pension

in 2010 before the coalition

introduced that final earnings point

and now though my colleague Jerry Scott

at the Times reported last week

was that by 2025

the state pension will cost

I think 135 billion

it's already risen 6 billion on last year

that 135 billion

is more than the budgets of the Home Office

Defence and Education departments combined

so I think it's really important to put that in context

it's just how much it is

but the costs of scrapping it

politically will be very very hard

and actually if you read the reporting on this

there's not really any suggestion that it will be scrapped

the boldest suggestion that you see

in this idea that potentially

there could be some sort of arbitrary freezing around the 5% mark

because of course we could see both inflation

and wages above 7% come the autumn

and Rishi Sunak

of course when Chancellor

did freeze the earnings part of that

because of this huge rise in the cost of it

so the previous argument around the triple lock state pension

being that it provides security

for pensioners, that it's inviolable and stable

and you prevent having this kind of

annual row between the Department of Work and Pensions

and the Treasury about what the price should be

you prevent that uncertainty

actually it hasn't proved inviolable since it's come in

we have seen tinkering

albeit kind of relatively minor tinkering

but still tinkering

I think in the context of possible welfare cuts amounting to billions

as the Sunday Times has reported

I think that decision becomes potentially

a lot more complicated for Jeremy Hunt to be making

Yeah and it's interesting that Rishi

Sunak has come back from his holiday

and I suspect will be keeping a very wary eye on that

because as you say

it's not just that pensioners are a very important group

when it comes to voting

they vote in much higher numbers

traditionally than young people

and young people without going into

sweeping generalisation

tend to be more liberal, labour

older people tend to be a bit more

conservative and so it is a key constituency

and of course the other thing

that the Tories want to avoid

is headlines which suggested

that Mrs. Miggins

in her place and she's 85 years old

can no longer afford to heat it

and therefore she's sitting shivering

the other side of that argument is that

the elderly pensioners

have been protected

in a way that every other group in society

has not

Yeah and there is, and this is credit

in some senses to the coalition government

there has been stability by and large

for that group as a result of the triple lock

for some time

I think looking demographically at the changes

that we'll see in society, something like 30%

of people by 2070 will be that a long way

off of state pension age

I think there's no surprise when you look into the research

that people like the Institute of Fiscal Studies have done

which shows that high numbers of people

around 30% of people don't think

that the state pension will last

I don't expect the state pension

to exist in triple lock form when I come

to be eligible to claim it so that is

a question of generational fairness I think

and it's something that you'll see people debate

a lot more openly, it's important there are leading

conservative voices like Lord Hague of Richmond

for example, former party leader who himself

criticised the triple lock before has raised

I think valuable questions about how sustainable

it is, it's not that there is this echo chamber

in the Conservative party whereby you just cannot touch

it whatsoever, I think you are seeing a situation

where people are having a meaningful debate about

its long term viability, that said

the prospect of altering it before

the next election in the current context

I think very very difficult to see how Jeremy

Hunt does that in any fundamental form

and where is Labour on this and if one was

to be unkind in caricature

you'd say well probably exactly where

the government is?

Labour haven't pledged to scrap the triple lock

if that's what you're asking

they haven't pledged to scrap the triple lock

I think there would be a huge amount

of wariness about doing that

in a context where like you mentioned

the possible headlines as a result

of that but also the genuine credit

that we should give the triple lock in lifting

a huge number of pensioners out of poverty

and I think that is a case that Labour

have made and will make and I think it would be

surprising if you saw them row back

with their commitments.

Meanwhile Keir Starmer has been out and about

and he's been with Anasawa

the Scottish Labour leader

and he's posting these videos

do we think they have vote winning

or not I'm not sure

How are you doing? Nice to see you

Thank you very much

How are you?

Good combination

Fantastic

Thank you

And I got you a ton of tea cake

My tea cake

Thank you very much

I mean I know it's August

but laughing with a tea cake

and we should say in the interest

of impartiality and showing our workings

Lara Spirit did bring in buns

into the office today

before we recorded so

we're all on a bit of a sugar rush in here

but I just thought the idea of posting a video

just eating a tea cake

and giggling

I think the idea

in setting out what they would have wanted

from that video the idea would have been to try

and convey Starmer's warmth

that he is good with people

that he is sociable

things that we perhaps don't usually see of Keir Starmer

My question with that video actually

was less the content of it and more the music

I'm sorry that that's a very

inane thing to say but it's that

I immediately felt that I was

waiting on hold for something

that I didn't particularly want to have

You were waiting for customer service

we will send your concerns to Keir Starmer

and the Labour Party

we share those concerns here at the news agents

Lara Spirit thank you very much indeed

Thank you

This is The News Agents

And before we go just to remind you

The News Agents USA

which we had a fascinating episode

because we interviewed Christopher Steele

he's the former MI6 officer

who wrote the Steele dossier

which led to the whole

Russia investigation

into Donald Trump

and his reflections now as Donald Trump

faces huge legal difficulties

in the United States

Don't you have a desire to see him brought down

given the shit he's given you

I certainly hope

he doesn't become

US President again and I think he represents

a real threat to Western democracy

in my opinion

Do you think the intelligence services in the UK

also probably think similarly

I'm sure they do yes

Do you say I'm sure they do

because you school in touch with people

That would be a reasonable assumption

And you can hear that on

Global Player and wherever else you get your podcasts

and we will be back tomorrow

and Lewis Goodall will be here in the studio

Hurrah!

Machine-generated transcript that may contain inaccuracies.