The Rest Is Politics: 134. Question Time: Solving sewage, building on the Green Belt, and the most intimidating person in politics

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Welcome to The Restless Politics Question Time with me, Rory Stewart.

And me, Alistair Campbell.

Very good. So, Alistair, sewage dumping, this is a question you like, Clive Fenton.

I'm sure you'll be aware of all the news covering the dumping of sewage into our country's waterways.

And onto our beaches, I understand you voted to support this approach in a recent vote this year, did you?

In Parliament, is that correct?

I'd like to understand why, and I imagine this may be addressed to me, I'm only teasing you.

I'd like to understand why, and given the absolute mess, what actions you're going to take to reverse this unacceptable situation.

So, Clive, I'm not actually a sitting MP, so I haven't been a member of the British Parliament since 2019,

so I certainly did not vote to support this approach in a recent vote this year in Parliament.

However, it is a good subject and one that's worth talking about.

Basically, at the heart of it, I believe, is the incredible lamentable underinvestment in our sewage system,

which means that the whole British sewage system at the moment and has for a long time depended,

if there's an overflow, in discharging raw sewage into water.

And fixing this, and I was the Environment Minister, so I spent a lot of time looking at this issue,

is an issue of tens of billions of pounds.

The number that was thrown at me was something like 23, 25 billion pounds,

which, to put it in context, is, I don't know, the entire prison budget four times over would have to go into fixing this.

So, it's not a small amount of money, and it would be interesting to see a cross-party approach to put the funding in place to get it together.

And I think there's another thing that isn't communicated to the public, which is that I'm being a bit unfair to colleagues in the Treasury,

but the impression I got from the Treasury was that they thought that 23 billion pounds wasn't worth it for the health benefits

that you derive from not putting the sewage into the water.

Question here related to Lee Williams.

Your thoughts on water companies charging the customer 10 billion pounds over 10 years to repair antiquated network,

despite withdrawing over 50 billion pounds in dividends over the last 10 years.

I think this is what gets people really angry, Roy.

Of all the privatizations, I think this is the one that really gets people to go.

And I think that people just feel that these water companies have been absolutely in it for the money,

haven't really invested for the long term, and at some point they stop caring about the quality of water.

And of course, if you have something like Dary's coffee as the minister,

it always seems to me like somebody who, it's almost like everything is happening around us,

though it's got nothing to do with, oh, yeah, well, it's not very good, is it?

But it's better than it was, or it's, you know, we've got...

She actually went on television the other day, so we've got the cleanest bathing water we've ever had.

Well, you then look at these maps of where this SHIT is being pumped out in massive quantities.

And as you know, I'm a cold water swimmer, and we're always looking for new places.

And you can't even get the data now as to what is clean and what isn't.

I think the government's completely underestimating this issue as a real problem for them.

I mean, it is a really interesting issue.

The one that I was completely obsessed with was air quality,

because when I was the minister, it became clear that at least 26,000 people a year

were dying prematurely from air pollution.

But I remember doing a debate with Diane Abbott in the House of Commons,

and she was saying it's absolutely disgusting that air pollution is worse than it's ever been.

And I had to say, actually, that isn't true.

The truth is, air quality is much, much better than it was 20 years ago, 30 years ago, 40 years ago.

It was unbelievably bad, the nitrogen dioxide, sulfur dioxide that was in our air.

And of course, you go back to the famous smogs and fogs of Victoria and Britain.

That was air pollution. That wasn't weather.

What Dickens thought was part of the traditional London weather was simply industrial pollution.

So it is also true that actually our beaches and water have, on many indicators,

improved over the last 20, 30 years.

But our expectations are also, understandably, expanding all the time.

So just as I don't think it's good enough to say,

we don't need to do anything on air because it was worse in the past,

well, 26,000 people are still dying prematurely.

And you can make the same argument around sewage.

Yes, it may well be that our bathing water is cleaner than it was in the past.

I mean, the Thames famously is much cleaner than it was in the early 80s.

And we've built a huge sewer under the Thames,

being built £4 billion super sewer under the Thames to make it even cleaner.

But I think the public still wants things better than that, don't they?

Yeah. Now, Kirsty Savapalan.

I've just ordered Alice's book, thank you.

Somebody who's disabled and lives with the chronic illness, ME,

which limits mobility and exertion.

What can I realistically do?

Do you know of any active disabled, chronically sick politician role models

to inspire people like me?

Actually, when you read the book, Kirsty,

you'll find that I have a section where I pay tribute to three of my favourite MPs.

Jack Ashley, who was profoundly deaf.

David Blunkett, who was, as we all know, blind

and was one of our best ministers by a long way.

And Anne Begg, MP up in Aberdeen,

who I suspect was in there in Parliament with you, Rory.

Yes.

And of course, was in a wheelchair.

And I don't know if you may know, Rory,

I also know politicians who struggle with mental health problems.

I don't know of any who have ME.

We don't know whether you do, Rory,

but I don't think we should think that it's impossible

to be a member of Parliament with chronic illness.

No, I mean, one of the striking examples of my intake

is Paul Maynard, who has cerebral palsy.

He was strangled by an umbilical cord at birth,

developed epilepsy, and has been a very effective MP.

And he was a minister in justice,

minister in transport, very bright guy.

I mean, it's not easy.

And there have been times where he's felt

that he's suffered real abuse as a politician.

I'm afraid to say also actually abuse from the Labour benches

when he's been speaking.

But he's a real example of somebody

who's overcome extraordinary difficulties to be a powerful MP.

Now, here's a question for you.

Charlotte, what are Rory and Alice's views

on Keir Starmer's plans to allow more building on the Greenbelt?

I live on the Whirl.

There are applications to build houses on our Greenbelt land,

which are extremely unpopular with myself and local residents.

I've always voted Labour and was planning to at the next election,

but Starmer's comments made me think twice.

Where are you on building on the Greenbelt?

I think I'm moving towards it.

I don't see how we...

I, as you know, love the Great Landscapes.

I think a lot of it when we talk about the Greenbelt,

we're not necessarily talking about Great Landscapes.

We're talking about land that has been protected

from certain forms of building

into which there has already been a sense of encroachment.

And I think as long as we do have proper environmental policies,

then at some point,

given the housing crisis in this country,

we are going to have to look at it.

I'm on the other side of this.

So, I think the Greenbelt has been an amazing thing around our cities.

I think it stopped urban sprawl.

It was a really smart move.

If I look at a city like Nagoya, where I was yesterday,

you can see what happens when there isn't adequate protection around.

And a lot of American cities,

you can really see how the sprawl continues and see.

I'd like us to be more imaginative though.

I agree, a lot of the Greenbelt Band is substandard land.

So, I'd like to see Kirstama put in his manifesto.

In fact, you and I should write a manifesto for Kirstama.

But in his manifesto,

a commitment to plant the Greenbelt around London

with the largest forest in England.

We could put in 500 million trees.

We could transform air quality.

We could have an impact on climate.

We could have an incredible impact on leisure

by putting the Greenbelt to proper use.

So, it's not just sitting there as sort of half abandoned land,

but get a beautiful, beautiful grand forest planted there.

Okay, listen, Harry Diamond,

what does a UK cabinet minister in 2023 have to do to get the sack?

As in, no resignation given or accepted, plain outright, you're fired.

What do you think a minister would actually have to do

to get the boot without any sense of...

Ron Davis, when he went for a walk on Clapham Common,

that ended up in him being sacked.

We had...

But when was the last sacking in this government?

I think Ron Davis is unfortunate

because I think Ron Davis is a legacy from a period

where the press were pushing for ministers who were gay

and he was stuck in a problem

about not being comfortable coming out.

I think that that wouldn't happen today.

And I think ministers are much less likely

to be forced to resign over affairs.

Although, I guess, Matt Hancock had resigned,

but that was connected with breaking COVID regulations.

What would it take to drive people out?

Well, I mean, remember, the number of people have gone,

have resigned or been sacked.

Not until how he went about his tax affairs.

Yeah, but they always go after a long draw now,

try to defend them and keep going.

There's not a sort of...

You know, there's nothing seems to be cut and dried anymore.

And this whole thing about the...

Sunak appears to be sort of using the ethics advisor

in much the way as previous Tory prime ministers have done

to sort of say, let's see if we can sort of kick the process

into the long grass a bit.

Oh, I'm not sure that's fair.

I think this ethics advisor, Laurie Magnus,

is not only pretty good, but pretty quick.

I mean, I know people suspected that,

but actually what happened with Adam Zahabi

is I think he was back with him four days.

As soon as he produced his report on Adam Zahabi went.

No, I think that's working pretty efficiently.

It's not kicking it into long grass

like a royal commission or something.

Okay, James OB, who's the most intimidating person

you've both come across in politics?

Is that James O'Brien?

No, I don't think it is James O'Brien.

I think James O'Brien is called James OB on social media,

but I don't think this is James O'Brien.

The most intimidating person?

I'm going for Helmut Cole.

I found him incredibly intimidating.

More than Vladimir Putin?

Yeah, partly because of his physicality, I think.

He was very...

I don't mean intimidating, by the way,

in a Dominique Raab type way

of bullying and aggression.

Just incredibly intimidating because of his size.

And there was a power about him

that sort of emanated.

I found him very intimidating, yeah.

Well, I'd put my money

on the leader of Zimbabwe.

I was the first minister

to meet President Manangagwa

after his inauguration.

And he killed his first man,

I think when he was 14 or 15,

and then led Mugabe's security service.

And at that period when he came in,

there was a real desire to believe

that now that Mugabe had stepped down,

that Manangagwa was going to lead

a new liberal opening,

that they were going to open up economically

and politically and run clean elections.

And he marched in to see me

with two men

in full military uniform on either side of him.

Sat down.

And he began talking about

Lorna Kabila

and his time in military training camps

in Angola

in the 1970s and early 80s.

And I sort of remembered

and I gently tried to suggest

in the weird way that British ministers are supposed to

that maybe we should allow

Zimbabweans outside the country to vote

and we should have independent electoral monitors in.

And he looked at me

and said,

what are you going to get Mugabe in?

And he looked at me

with a sort of extraordinary

sort of mingled, pity

experience

and sight sort of derision.

And I left the room thinking

that the idea that we were going to get

amazing reforms out of a man called

Emerson the Crocodile Manangagwa

was not very likely.

Well, the one that I almost said

but I didn't want to was also Zimbabwean

and that was Mugabe.

It was not utterly repelled and revolted.

It's one of the most expensive suits I've ever seen.

You've got a good eye for expensive suits, haven't you?

You're always noting on Michael Heseltine

who else did you think had an expensive suit?

Philip Hammond. I saw Philip Hammond recently.

He had a very, very, very expensive suit.

And what's the sign of an expensive suit

as a man that doesn't notice these things?

What do you notice about expensive suits?

It's the cut you can tell.

It's just very, very, very well cut

and the cloth sort of...

I noticed with Philip Hammond for example

when we were sitting together

and we were sitting down maybe for about two hours

but I noticed that when he stood up

it still looked like he'd just put it on.

It was the weight of the cloth.

I mean, I don't know.

Maybe it was Mars and Spencer's but I don't think so.

So Mugabe was wearing this incredibly expensive suit

and it was at the Chogham, the Commonwealth

Heads of Government meeting in Edinburgh

and his first question was on the lines of

why did Tony Blair surround himself

with nothing but homosexuals?

Jonathan Powell and I were both sort of very confused

with this question but so

then he went to add that a brief about

Tony Blair's gay mafia

or very, very, very odd.

Gosh, good, it's gross to me.

Oliver Merriman, year abroad story for Alastair.

I am, like you were,

a student of modern languages at Keys College

in Cambridge. Is that Gonville and Keys?

That's the one.

Gonville and Keys College, Cambridge

where you went, right?

September I'm going on my year abroad

and would therefore love to know the most memorable story

from the time you spent on your year abroad

and as a modern linguist at Cambridge University.

It was one of the best years of my life.

Totally random.

All the students were given the choice of having

year abroad in a school

teaching English for 12 hours a week

or going to university. I went for

the school. It's then

total potluck about where you get sent

and I got sent to a school in Nice.

So I had a year

living in Nice, down by the port

and it was absolutely wonderful.

The highlight moment in a bizarre sort of way

was probably

when I realised that I could make a very, very

good living as a busker

because I had my backpipes.

With your pipes? Yeah, I had my backpipes.

I went and found a very quiet place

out in the open but a sort of

random car park in the middle of nowhere

tuned them up, started playing them just from

my own entertainment and this crowd

came out and started throwing money into the

into the box and I thought, oh my god.

You were just practicing? I was just practicing.

This evening I went to the

Promenade des Anglais

and then Rue Masséna which is the sort of

pedestrian precinct and I stood there

playing my pipes.

I thought, god, I could make it absolutely

fortune. So then what I did, I persuaded

the head teacher of the school, can I pack

my 12 hours into one and a half days

and then the rest of the year I just spent

the time travelling around Europe

making a lot of money with my backpipes. And that's how you

made your fortune? Well, fortune overstates it.

So, Rory, if you're asking me

specific questions aimed at me,

Carl Wiseman, could Rory please share a few

of his lessons from staying overnight with ordinary people

during his mayoral campaign? Yeah, so

that, thank you. So this was

something called Come Kept With Me

and I put out a tweet saying I'd love

to be invited

to stay in people's houses and about

6,000 people wrote back

almost immediately and there were lovely emails

coming in from people saying, they were

often very long emails trying to explain

why I should be staying with them and what I'd learn

when I was staying with them. But it was

really eye-opening. I stayed

with a co-operative

for older women up in North London.

I stayed on the sofa

of a guy's family flat

in Wandsworth where he was living

with his parents and his sister and a younger

brother in a two bedroom council house.

Did you have anybody

check them out before you went? Yes,

someone from our team would call them.

When you're an MP, obviously, you're often leafletting.

So you knock on a door

and you put a leaflet through and you ask a couple of questions

and you move on. If you stay in someone's house

you have the whole night

and the morning and you talk late into the night

and you wake up and you often you can

walk to work with them in the morning

or walk to the underground

station in the morning and I learned

so much.

I learned so much from just getting a sense

there was a stable woman who was volunteering

in a homeless shelter

out towards Stratford and

a lot of the times I was sleeping on people's sofas

but it just gave me an amazing

insight in a way that

is so important for London because London isn't

really one place. It's

sort of 32 cities connected

to each other and you've really got to spend

time on all of them. And did you

literally stay on your own or did any of your people

your team stay with you? I'd stay

on my own except one

case I think my friend Will came and stayed

once but generally I'd stay on my own

and we'd have

sometimes have supper. I'd bring some milk tray

with me.

Milk tray? Yeah, Cadbury's

milk tray. Always milk tray?

Always Cadbury's milk tray, yeah. Why?

Well because someone had made a joke about my

being the man with the milk tray

so it was this kind of crap joke.

Ah, I see, okay.

Matt Hancock was the milk tray man as well, wasn't he?

That wasn't because

he went in through people's windows for the present

I think it was more because he wore a dodgy

black polar neck.

Right, well let's just take a quick break

and Rory Stewart the milk tray man.

Welcome back

to the Restless Politics Question Time.

Jonas, you both seem like very busy people

constantly on the move, travelling to different

countries, working on multiple different projects.

I wonder what are your tips for work-life balance?

I manage communications

for a UK diplomatic mission

while also having three kids under the age 5

I feel burnt out most days for the struggle of wanting

to give my all for the job

and also my family.

I'm the last person to answer that very, very well

because I don't think I do it very well at all

the work-life thing.

I feel completely burnt out most of the time

as you know I'm running this charity gift directly

which means that I have to be in Africa

quite a lot and fundraising the states

quite a lot

and I feel very, very

guilty. I've got an 8 year old

and a 6 year old and

I won't see them now for

almost three weeks.

Oh Lord!

So I think it's tough

and I think it's tougher

maybe this isn't true but I sometimes

feel it's tougher for my friends

or women. I think it's particularly tough for Shashana

who's running a big charity in Afghanistan and Myanmar

and it's also having to

do an enormous amount of other stuff

in the house. I think

it's pretty tough being a young parent though

I guess any gender

because the expectations are generally

pretty impossible aren't they?

I listen, I'm a lot better than I was

in that I rest more than I

used to

but I still feel I have to exercise

every day. I've been out swimming this morning

and I'm doing boxing later on. I've got to

exercise

I've got to sort of look after myself

and you know our kids are growing up

but we still see a lot of them

and still worry about them

and still want to be kind of connected to them

I guess you do have a job

to have quite a lot of freedom

Yeah, I think that's true

I mean I'm the boss which helps

and a lot of what I'm doing is fundraising

so a lot of the time I'm travelling around

trying to raise money and it's true

actually as a member of parliament too

that you are your own boss as an MP

and you can pretty much, MPs do work hard

I mean whatever we think about them

maybe evil, maybe incompetent but they do work hard

No, I think very few are evil

some are incompetent but I agree with you

that most work very very hard

Listen, we've got a few critical questions this week

which I think we'll come back to you later

We've got a lot of people asking

suggesting that we were very dismissive of doctors

and the question of why we've got such a

problem with training doctors

which I said we'd come back to

but given the level

of the number of people who got in touch

to say that they felt we were dismissive

I think we should come back at it when we've really looked into the issue

and here's another one we've got

a bit of criticism, Fritfly

The most popular country in Africa held their election this year

the results of which remain controversial

I haven't yet heard you guys mention it once

Can you give some thoughts and analysis on Nigeria

before the swearing in of Tanubu

at the end of the month? In fact, Fritfly

you must have missed the episode

where we talked at good length about the election

We've done a couple of Nigerian episodes

Yeah

and we talked quite a lot

about Tanubu

I mean it is very difficult

to know who

could have brought Nigeria out of its current

malaise

but it's difficult I'm afraid to believe that Tanubu

can because he is absolutely

a veteran machine politician

and the guy that was meant to be

breath of fresh air came

third in the end. Who was Peter Obi

and Tanubu famously had his assets frozen

by the US government

for heroin dealing in 93

it's pretty worrying

Simon C

I'm genuinely interested in your answer to this

and I think I know

the answer is going to be but I don't really

I'm an art teacher, Simon

I wonder how you both feel about art

are you artists yourself

do you make time to be creative

do you have exhibitions

or galleries that are favourites

to paint?

I do paint a little bit

I paint and I draw

my first book placed in between has got

my drawings in it. Oh, they're yours?

They're my drawings yet? They're not bad

They're not okay, yeah

a bit of watercolour

yeah and art galleries

I mean I huge shout out if anyone's

interested in London at the moment

amazing free exhibition

on St. Francis in the National Gallery

if you want to pop down and have a look at it

which has the robe that St. Francis

himself wore in the 12th century

has incredible

manuscripts but also

paintings and artwork going right the way through to the current day

including film clips on St. Francis

so there's my

art gallery recommendation

I don't

I'm the worst probably not the worst

but I can't paint and I can't draw

and I really wish that I could

I really admire you

but you're much much better at music than I am

so there we are

yeah but I just wish I could

and I have had a go

we've got an artist

Sarah Pickstone who lives just up the road from us

and she did help me

I did a painting for a charity

it was actually to raise funds for

a swing pool down in

the West Country

and actually

it wasn't bad it wasn't bad

with her at my side telling me what to do

but I would need to have

that if I was to

I do like wondering

I do like wondering around art galleries from time to time

my complete

fantasy if I was going to do something

if I managed to retire is I'd love to

make pots I love ceramics

I love the feeling of clay

I'm just an ore of

Chinese ceramics, Islamic ceramics

Japanese ceramics I'd love

to be a potter

okay there you go Simon C

when Rory Stewart becomes a potter

he can come along and teach your students

how to pot

well I've got a good one for you here

could you both give an example the fun side of politics

is if there's a story involved even better

any fun stories from politics

I understand

I can remember one in Japan

Gorman?

we had a gathering recently for Tony Blair's

70th birthday and there's lots of people who were

basically people who worked for him the whole time

and

people were remembering some very very

very good fun times

and

I think I've told you the story about Tony once

sort of impersonating

an Ulster Unionist in the Bath

in Hillsborough Castle but the one that

popped into my head because we've been talking about Japan

was when

I got a message

that he wanted to see me and this was

he was in his bedroom at the British Embassy

in Tokyo

and I walked through and he

he discovered

he discovered the crash helmet

under the bed

in case of an earthquake

and there was something surreal

about walking in to see Tony Blair

lying on his bed

wearing a crash helmet

pretending that he was in the middle

of an earthquake

so you know

we had a

we had a good laugh quite a lot of the time

and I also think there is a fun in campaigning

I mean campaigns they can be hellish and

as Bill Clinton once said election campaigns are

the one form of activity that makes

everybody look like their passport photo

but elections can be very very good fun

I can think of lots of really really good moments

what about you, when did you have fun?

I think what's amazing about

being a politician is that

it's one of those rare professions which

actually allows you to get into

everybody else's house and I think

there are a couple of other professions that might

allow you to do that maybe a police officer

maybe some kind of journalist but basically

people often live quite a

limited life you see your friends

and you go to their houses

but as a politician you can with your constituents

you're knocking on doors you're going to every village

and you're going to see

everything from the grandest houses

to the most remote outlying farms

to going into people's caravans

and I loved it

I'm quite nosy and I love

the privilege of being able to see every

different type of life being able to

spend time in the travel community

or spend time with

help with lambing

there's a lot of participation

I mean I spent a lot of time as a politician

in strange vehicles

canoes driving tractors

driving a mole plow

riding horses

all as part of being constituency MP

I mean there's a lot of fun to be had there

particularly if like me you're lucky enough

to represent a remote rural constituency

I don't think it would be quite the same if I was

representing Slough

Yeah but it would in a way because you're

absolutely right it's the same with journalism

I think the thing I used to love about being a journalist

is that you could literally walk up to anybody

anywhere and start talking to them

Hi I'm Alistair Campbell from the Daily Mirror

I'm doing a piece about X

five times out of 100 people would talk to you

Yeah I totally love it

and I think it's

I would recommend

as a way of getting to know your fellow man

there are very few things as good

so final question what books were reading

I put another plug in

for Raphael Baer's

Amazing Politics a Survivors Guide

wonderful wonderful book

it's great on Russia

it's great on populism it's great on Britain

and another book

I strongly recommend it

I'm in Japan it's called Lost Japan

by Alex Kerr

and a lot of these recommendations on Japanese books

came from Twitter so I'm hugely

hugely grateful to Twitter

that's fantastic if anyone's ever looking

for a book it's just such a brilliant way

of getting book recommendations

That is one of the best I agree with you about

social media gets a lot of flak

deservedly but actually when you

say when you put things out

like anybody know a good book about so and so

a nice restaurant in such and such an area

it is amazing how

nice people are about

sending you information about stuff like that

I think it's just

absolutely brilliant and then finally

I mentioned

Tanaka Kakuya so in our

distribution I'm going to send a

book with a lovely article about Tanaka Kakuya

I am currently

reading a book that is

was sent to me by my good friend

Karl Bernstein

who and it's a book not about

Watergate it's about his life as a young

reporter

and any young

reporter out there or somebody who wants to

aspire to be a journalist it's just a

brilliant brilliant account of

and you get a sense of why he became one of

the greatest journalists of all time

and it's just about his relentless curiosity

and I think that curiosity

is one of the most important

characteristics for all of us frankly

but obviously

for journalism and the other thing that I'm

that I'm reading is

it's a short history

of Germany

and it's called how we became what we are

obviously

of Deutsch very very good

well thank you Alison have a

you know good luck on the continuing extraordinary

successful book tour and look forward to speaking

again next week a book tour which I will be

suspending for the afternoon

as I am due to go to court

and be a witness in the Prince Harry case

about which we'll hear more in the next

podcast coming up soon

thank you all the best bye bye

Machine-generated transcript that may contain inaccuracies.