Sky Sports F1 Podcast: Was Singapore a one-off or a sign of things to come? | What went wrong for Red Bull?

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Hello, everybody. Welcome to the Sky Sports F1 podcast with me, Matt Baker.

I hope you're doing okay.

To help me look back on a thrilling Singapore Grand Prix and a win for Carlos Sainz,

I'm joined by, well, two ships in the night.

We've got Simon coming back from Asia from Singapore and Anne this evening.

You're going to go out to Japan. Hello to you both.

Simon, firstly, how are you? How's the jet lag?

I'm all right, actually. We pushed on through on Sunday night

so that we got to know Anne with a knowing knot.

We were celebrating a good race and then we got on the night of drop flight

and myself, Danica and one of our producers told me we're heading towards the airport

and then, yeah, got back late yesterday, so all right, ship shape.

Ship shape. Anne, how are you looking forward to Japan?

I am, Matt. Yeah, again, because I was there just last week for the World Endurance Championship,

so I've come back for a week and back out there again today,

so my body doesn't really know where it is.

I've only just got over the jet lag and Simon's been talking now

and I'm going to go and do it to myself all over again, but, yeah, different locations.

Well, we don't get the jet lag in Singapore.

No, because we just live like vampires, as you know,

so we're up all night and stay on UK time,

but you don't have that luxury, do you?

And in Japan, you just don't have any?

You don't, and you've got those lovely rice pillows to look forward to as well

and rock hard bed, so, yeah, as if the jet lag wasn't hard enough,

you, yeah, at least I fit those beds, though.

They're very, very short beds.

I don't notice that, unlike Crofty or not yourself so much, Simon,

but taller people of the team.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Unique experience, certainly is Japan.

Okay, let's get straight into it.

Our One Word Race Reviews from Singapore Grand Prix.

Simon, let's start with you. You were there.

Go on, after you.

Night fever.

Oh.

I'll give you that as one word, will we?

Is that one word?

Night fever.

That's not, is it not even hyphenated, is it?

Night fever.

Go on.

I was thinking about that.

Go Frost, really good guy.

It was good with a couple of weeks ago,

and he was known for having the fever,

and it was on Saturday, and it was night,

and that one's been...

Why have you got night fever,

apart from obviously being at night

and being feverously exciting?

Yeah, that's it.

I mean, it was for any motorsport fan

and for Formula One fan.

It was just, it was good to see, wasn't it?

I mean, to see that the Red Bull,

despite their amazing domination so far,

and it has been amazing, you've got to doff your cap

to what is one of the best cars,

possibly in the history of Formula One,

in fact, definitely in the history of Formula One.

15 in a row, max, obviously, with the record

for consecutive wins,

and then it was just an amalgamation of many things,

which I'm sure will come on to,

which cost them in qualifying and the race.

There wasn't much to do after qualifying on Saturday,

and it just brought a number of teams into it,

and that end that we had, the last 17 laps,

it was outstanding.

It was the best race of the year.

I don't think anybody could deny that,

and everybody was on the edge of their seats

after that late-versal safety car in Mercedes,

kind of taking the chance to go for those two sets of new mediums,

which they'd held back exactly for a situation like that.

A glimpse, isn't it, into what would have happened

if Red Bull hadn't been so far ahead?

And can you beat Night Fever?

And I bet you can, because you'll probably pick one word,

which was within the rules.

It would be one word.

Simon already stole another one during that chat there.

I was going to say refreshing.

It was refreshing to see a different winner,

Red Bull not in the mix right at the sharp end,

and it kind of justified everything

that we had been saying all along.

Not so much to take Red Bull out of the equation,

but you take Max Verstappen out of the equation,

and suddenly you've got a mega race on your hands,

and that's what we've been seeing from second place down

pretty much all the way through this season.

I would say it was different.

It was strategic, tactical.

It had a mix of everything.

The only thing, the only thing at the end,

it was just a shame that,

it was just a shame in a way that,

I think everyone was behind Mercedes in a way,

you want the underdogs to kind of come through,

and they had played a blind over the virtual safety car,

boxing both cars.

Ferrari had left Leclerc out there

to do the defensive work,

get his elbows out, but that didn't last long,

and they were just on this surge to the front,

and it was just, we could all see what was coming.

We were watching the lap times coming down,

and purple sectors flying from both drivers,

and you're just waiting for it to just get right to the front,

and then it kind of, it didn't quite happen,

but it was brilliant nonetheless, absolutely brilliant.

Remarkable, remarkable race.

I've gone for wise, actually,

and I've gone for wise because of Carlos at the front.

I thought he was incredible.

The way he bought Lando in, within DRS,

to give him an extra tool against the,

or tool in defence against the Mercedes,

I thought was remarkable really.

And yeah, I just, I mean, obviously,

and you know this very well,

but how drivers are able to process so much information,

think strategically,

while also driving a car around a track like Singapore,

where the walls are so tight,

I can barely do one thing at once,

let alone what the drivers are doing.

I think it's absolutely remarkable, so yeah.

Yeah, it really was.

Another one word for you that I've kind of toyed with using earlier on,

symbiotic,

because that's exactly...

Yeah, that's exactly...

What does that mean, Ant? What does that mean?

It was the relationship,

usually between two different organisms,

helping each other out in some way.

And that's exactly what

the Ferrari and the McLaren were doing

of Lando and RS and Carlos Sainz towards the end of the race.

It was very symbiotic,

symbiosis in full flow that was,

because Carlos knew

he needed Lando there

to help defend him

by him having DRS.

And Lando was protected by Carlos

by giving him DRS.

So it was this two-way relationship

that beautifully worked.

Two of them were obviously very good friends.

They maybe can read each other's minds as well.

They've grown up racing against each other.

And it was...

Honestly, it was amazing to watch,

because it was subtle,

but Carlos,

he played it brilliantly.

And as a driver myself,

I could see exactly what he was doing,

and I was incredibly envious as well

at the same time, because

that was...

It was very hard to execute.

And that's exactly what he did.

There was even a moment when

Lando and George were

fighting each other down towards turn 16.

And

Lando had lost quite a bit of ground

to Carlos.

And before the final corner came up,

turn 18-19,

the gap had risen to over one second.

And I thought, this is going to be George's chance now,

down towards turn 7.

He'll be in the DRS.

But Carlos had spotted it,

slowed down intentionally through the final corner

and the first sequence of corners

to make sure his buddy was right there behind him

once again down the back straight

towards turn 7, had the DRS.

So even the team didn't know

what Carlos was up to. He said,

leave it to me. I know what I'm doing here.

You're probably not going to understand right now,

and I haven't got the time to explain,

but watching this,

it was awesome, absolutely awesome.

He utterly deserved that big treat.

And actually, you could say, couldn't you,

that the symbiosis extended

to his teammate, Charles,

because he was prepared to act

as his rear gunner, particularly as he got ahead

on the softs at the start.

And you've got two Ferraris at the front.

When he got ahead of G. Russell, they were able to

kind of run at their own pace,

manage their tyres.

When they came in after the first

safety card, they double stacked.

You know, Charles had to have

the 5.5 second pit stop,

which hurt him a little bit.

But even after the race,

I was quite surprised that Charles said,

look, we did the job we needed to do

tonight. It didn't work out for me,

but it worked out for the team.

And Carlos deserves it after the way he's been driving.

I think that in a Ferrari,

in his Ferrari overalls,

this is probably as good a run

as he's had since the summer break.

He's just totally on it.

And it feels to me like he's added

Saturday single

lap qualifying pace

to his armory, which was

his weakness. I think it's something like

8-7 now to Charles on a Saturday,

but he's no pushover.

That is, as we were talking about

after the race with everybody,

it's not a 1-2 driver line up there.

It's two world-cast drivers

and they're working together

and driving the team forward

and Ferrari executed

very well. And I think that would have been

one of the biggest question marks. Yes, a lot

was down to the driver, but overall

as a team, they had a good weekend, I think.

Yeah, they really did. I mean, Ferrari have come

under the spotlight numerous times

in recent years, you know, not getting

their strategy completely right,

not optimizing their car.

The two drivers, sometimes not even

really seeing eye-to-eye and not working well

together, but that race, everything

came together. There'll be some

questioning why

they didn't pit Leclerc under the

virtual safety car, because that would

have helped his race.

He was falling, personally, he was falling

back from Carlos.

And that would have definitely helped

Charles' race.

While they say, Simon, playing the team game,

the team looking at it strategically,

they knew they needed to use

Charles. And, you know,

I know, the Mercedes

didn't spend long behind him,

but every little helped in that situation

to try to

further hurt the Mercedes

fresh medium tyres in their quest

to try and get back to the front.

So, yeah, they used him wisely.

He understood the game.

He backed off when he needed to

at the start of the race to give that

three or four second gap that the team were looking for.

I think it took a little while

to sink in for Charles, but

then he realized quite quickly that

that was going to help protect the lead

race for Ferrari from the potential

undercut of Mercedes

or McLaren.

So, but together

they just worked brilliantly well

to make sure that they had covered

their backs and also pushed when

they needed to. And, Carlos knew he had the speed.

We saw it all weekend.

He knew he had the speed to match Mercedes

or even better them

and that of McLaren as well.

And that's why he was comfortable at the end of the race

to do what he did.

He knew on the equal tires

he had the measure of

Landau. It was

Mercedes that were the threat.

So, yeah, it was a strategic race

and I think you can

definitely

applaud Ferrari this time

without question for how they played it.

Strategic, yes.

And sometimes strategic races can be

guilty of not being overly exciting

or the spectacle of it not being as good.

Whereas I think no one is in any

doubt that the spectacle of this race was

phenomenal. Certainly those last laps.

Simon, I want to

just chat to you about

Science vs Leclerc. You alluded to it there that they're

now quite evenly matched. And if we look

at the points, you've got Science on 142

points in the Drivers' Championship. Leclerc

on 123.

Do you think now, would you say

this was the weekend or this period

since the summer break is where

Ferrari now do officially have

two, I mean there's no doubt that

Science has been a world-class driver, but they've got two

excellent drivers who are ready

and if they get given the car next year, will

both be in contention for a world

championship. Yeah, absolutely.

I don't think you can, there's no

doubt about

either driver. Well, there were small doubts

about either driver. I've always said this to

him and he knows what I feel

with Charles. I always think he kind of

he's guilty of making a few

too many mistakes

and I think he's ironing that out.

He's still probably the quicker of the two

Drivers. In fact, definitely the quicker of the

two Drivers over one lap.

But when it comes

to the race itself, Carlos Sight

is, as I always say

he's from racing royalty.

His dad, very cerebral driver

he's the same, they think

their way through things and

as going back to what you were saying about

why's and the intelligence that

Carlos possesses. I'd say he's one of the most

intelligent Drivers and he uses it every single

Sunday. He might not

have had the podiums this year

but he's always there or there about. He's always

been fourth or fifth. He always maximizes

what that car can do.

So if he's given a race winning car,

if he's given a car that can challenge Red Bull

over the course of the season, I think

there's a very strong case to say that

that pairing is stronger than

the Red Bull line up.

I'd say that that is on

a par potentially, perhaps not

quite as good as the Mercedes

pairing, which I'd still say is

number one, but I don't know if I can

agree, but as you said, two

world class Drivers,

given the car, they'll turn it into wins.

Yeah, I mean Carlos has definitely

proven in the last two Grand Prix

that his defensive

skills are

I think they're the best

out there. I really do. He's

so wise in where he places

the car. He can understand

what's going on behind

him so well.

He kept his teammate at Bayer Monza.

He fought incredibly hard

with Max, who's, you know, it's no mean

feat to try and keep him behind you.

And he's willing to take

a good amount of risk as well, but it's a

calculated risk with Carlos. He's a very

classy driver and

I mean, he can still

work on a little bit of that speed

on more higher speed, faster

flowing circuits. Street

track's very different. You often see

different Drivers come to the fore

for whatever reason at

street tracks. You know, we've seen

Louis Hamilton get beaten at Monaco

in the past from the likes of

Valtteri Bottas, Nico Rosberg

and we've seen Max get beaten in the past

by Dan Ricciardo in Monaco

and Singapore is, hasn't

really been an incredibly strong

track for Max. And different

Drivers seem to excel at these

street tracks and I think Carlos is one of

those Drivers that for

reason can get a bit more

out of it than song.

So, you know,

yes, Monza was a great

weekend for him. Singapore's

obviously been fantastic for him as well,

but I want to see

that level of performance roll on

into Suzuka because that's

that's a more traditional kind

of circuit where

you would naturally expect

Leclerc to get the better of Carlos. So I'm

waiting to see that this weekend

come in. Yeah, we're

waiting to see a lot of things at Suzuka, mainly

about the Red Bulls as well. We'll come on to that.

Just sort of finally on the Ferrari story

and Anne, we've obviously

spoken about the Drivers and where the speed

has come in terms of Carlos

and Charles stepping up, but what about

the car because it seems like since

well, the last two races, Monza

and Singapore,

the cars looked great.

I mean, where's this change come from?

Well, I mean, the teams are constantly

updating their cars as well, don't forget.

So, I mean,

I think this year has been

more so than last year even.

Now they're fully understanding these

cars and where the performance

comes from. They

attack this season pretty aggressively with

their updates and we've seen

so that the likes of McLaren,

they've surged forward this year.

Ferrari have made good updates as well.

Mercedes, Red Bull have

stayed constantly up there,

of course, but Aston Martin

are the team that haven't

quite kept up with the pack

and it's very easy when everybody

is making those updates constantly

through the year.

It's very easy just to think, well,

nobody's really bought anything to the table.

It's pretty much a stalemate, but

Aston Martin have lost out.

But it's far from that.

I know from, I mean, I don't want to

give too much away, but just from my

experience in the simulator, I've

seen the car improve.

Taking it back to different circuits

that were earlier

in the year on

say the current aero configuration,

you see that

you see that relentless

improvement through the season and everybody

is doing that. So if you do

stay still, you will fall behind

the pack. So Ferrari are definitely one of those teams

that have kept up with the pack.

Maybe their updates have

edged ahead of teams like

Aston Martin that we're seeing

recently in the last couple of races, but

again, two very different circuits, Matt.

You know, models are

people think of it as this high-speed circuit.

It is, because it's got lots of straight

lines, but it hasn't got many high-speed

corners and you don't run high downforce there.

So it's all about the braking

and the slow speed corners

just like Singapore.

You wouldn't think the two really are on the

same plane here and

in terms of downforce, no.

But in terms of car requirement,

braking stability,

slow speed corners, lots of traction.

That's what you need at

Monza as well. So the Ferrari's been

quite good on those circuits.

All C's not Montreal as well.

Another one, more similar

to Monza. High-speed

straights, long braking zones,

slow speed corners, lots of traction.

That seems

to be where their car shines. So

in the same way I'm saying

I'm waiting to see whether Carlos can match

Charles in Suzuka.

I'm waiting to see whether Ferrari

can carry on this pace when they get

to a higher-speed, faster flowing

circuit. It's going to be very, very interesting

in Suzuka.

Simon, let's

move on to Red Bull and

this was a weekend in which, certainly

from my perspective, not being there, it

felt like Red Bull were on the ropes a little bit,

all weekend. And we've seen

throughout the season, we've seen Max on a Friday

perhaps be, you know,

frustrated or annoyed with the way the car's set up.

But by Saturday, by quality,

generally all those problems seem to have eradicated

themselves. That's been the trend across the season

so far. This weekend

in Singapore, that wasn't the case. And

he was having problems, wasn't he? All throughout the

Saturday and into Sunday. What's

your take on

what went wrong for Red Bull this weekend?

The lizard put a curse

on him.

I think that's where

it all started, wasn't it? He saw son of

Godzilla, baby Godzilla. It was

haunting for him and it all went backwards from there.

At least that's what explanation you could say.

But the baseline setup

wasn't right, was it? From the start. So

they were playing catch-up.

You know, he didn't seem to have

any confidence in the first sector.

He was bottoming out under braking,

which was, going back to

what Alan was saying, it's all about

braking. It's all about traction out of the slow

corners. They had neither of those.

And I think with regards

to the car itself, we

know that as an aero platform, it

tends to work on most

circuits now, medium speed corners, high

speed corners. But the slow speed

corners combined, I think, with the bumpy

nature of the track and the fact that there were such

big curbs meant that they

had to adjust the ride height. And

in adjusting the ride height, it kind of

threw the setup off a little bit. They tried

some tweaks between the third

practice session and

qualifying with the software to try to

counter that so they could run it a bit

lower and it just got worse, didn't it, Alan?

So it, you know, I think

it was just a combination

of things. There's been talk about

whether the TDs on the flexi front wings

and the underside of the car

had played anything

into this, but I'm not sure

that's the case. Maybe that's a red herring

but we'll find out, won't we, in Suzuka.

So Christian

was playing it down. The team was saying

look, it's absolutely nothing to do with that. It is

just, we've got an unbalanced

car. We can't get the setup right.

And I think

it got slightly better in the race.

They got unlucky, didn't they? They were

holding out for, the safety car

came too early for them, really, because

they both started on the sets of hards

and then they pitted and then, what was it,

three apps later, the virtual safety car

came out. So timing

wise, they got a little bit unlucky in the race.

They knew what they were trying to do, but

ultimately, it all stems from the fact

that they didn't get quantity right. And that's

back to back years now where it's not

paid off for Max Verstappen and he was saying,

look, it's totally unacceptable.

This car, you cannot drive it.

And it looked like it was just like

skating across the track at times. So

I thought for

then, it was a horrible weekend,

but for

everybody watching from the neutral's perspective,

it kind of

it was, it just was a breath of fresh air

for the competition.

We needed that weekend. We needed to see

that there was a chink in the

armour and obviously, Red Bull

being Red Bull, we'll go away and work on that

and clearly improve the car for next year.

So it kind of, you know,

it's double-edged saw. We got on, you know,

Ferrari think we got on this year

in Singapore, but

they'll get it right. That car has got very, very

few weaknesses.

Yeah, I mean, Red Bull, it's an interesting one, isn't it?

It reminds me of when Mercedes

were in their dominant years and they arrived

at Singapore and that was their Achilles heel

and everybody else had a chance to

get the better of them there and they went away

and worked on that circuit

relentlessly because it was their only

weakness. They understood they had a weakness

there and then they came back and they

in a couple of years, they had sorted it out. So I fully

expect Red Bull with a great engineering

team that they are, we'll get their heads

around it and

kind of engineer that into next year's car,

the RB20.

But I also think it's not a circuit

that Max particularly

enjoys so much.

You know, beaten by Perez there last

year and you know, the way the strategy

unfold and everything kind of went against

him as well, but

Max will be much more in his element

and the car will be much more in his element in

Suzuka. I'm fully expecting that.

I don't think this new

TD, the

rule change in terms of the

more static from

wings, not allowing them to flex quite as

much and the floor,

I don't believe

that was the

main issue for Red Bull in Singapore.

I think

it requires a lot more mechanical

compliance

and agility from that circuit

not just downforce.

Obviously, downforce helps you everywhere

as I say as a driver, downforce

is your friend,

but whatever speed, that's why we run

higher downforce at Suzuka. It's like Monaco

and Singapore because it does work at

slow speed as well. It's not just a high

speed, but it has less of an influence

in the slow speed compared to the high

speed. I don't think

it was all to do with that.

There'll be many teams out there crossing

their fingers and hoping that

that's why they lost it.

But I'm fully expecting them to go back

to Suzuka

and the car will be flying

again. But it is interesting and it's nice

to know that they have

this weakness in their car.

What I was hoping for you to say there

is that there is some hope and that maybe

when we get to Suzuka, Red Bull might not look

as good as they did. Maybe that will be the case.

Maybe it will hinder

them a bit. There are rumours going around

and not suggesting for a second that this is Red Bull,

but there are rumours going around

that teams were

using the

titanium skid blocks in the

underfloor of the car

in a way that would

I don't know the exact technicalities

to it, but would move

and allow the teams to run their cars lower

and as we know in this ground effect era

if you can run the floor closer to the ground

you're going to get a bit more suction

the car have effectively more

downforce and happy days

because you're not

a drag penalty by

gaining downforce from the floor of the car

as much as you would from a wing.

So if things like this

are going on with different teams up and down

the field

it must be a little bit of a negative impact

but

I'm not pointing at

anybody, it's all I've heard

I've read it

online as well

and these rumours are out there

but they didn't come from

Sinair

and the regulation wouldn't have changed

if the FIA didn't feel like this was going on

I believe

it has been going on

they're clamping down on it

let's see if there are any

shake-ups, but

I don't think it's going to really affect

red strangle hold on the competition

in those high-speed circuits

Simon, I want to just move on

and talk about

Red Bull this weekend

because it was the first weekend

like I said that Red Bull looked uncomfortable

we know obviously he was fielding a lot of questions

at the start of the weekend

on the helmet Marco comments

and then as the weekend progressed

he was obviously fielding a lot of questions from the media

on the lack of performance

and the lack of improvement in performance in the Red Bull

how did he

or how was he this weekend

you must have interviewed him a fair few times throughout the weekend

how did it change

I guess this is where you earn your money isn't it

as a team principal when the chips are down

and when you've got to come out and face the media

yeah I think

it's not like you're responsible for a squad

of 24 players

like you might be in a Premier League football team

you're responsible for a squad

and a team of up to a thousand

maybe more than a thousand people

in the case of some of the bigger teams

so I think as a team principal you have to wear

a number of hats

I think Christian is actually pretty good at it

I think

there's a reason that he's the longest serving

team principal

there's a reason that he's like the second youngest team principal

I think he's second only to Colin Chapman isn't it

and there's a reason that he got that

that early he is driven

he is focused

he is an absolute competitor

and

I think over the last few years

they've been used to a lot

of criticism coming towards them

for the right

for the wrong reasons

but whatever the reasons are

you have to be the judge of those yourself

but they've certainly in Christian

particularly has had to field a lot of negativity

so

I think

he had to do that at the beginning of the weekend

because Dr. Marcos comments were

unacceptable

he did when we interviewed him

I asked him about

why there wasn't a statement

released by the team

that is because he's an employee of the

wider Red Bull group

when you look on the company's house website

he is one of only two active

directors of Red Bull racing

so you could say there was an element

of spin there

Dr. Marcos apologised Sergio Perez accepted it

was that enough

what would it have cost them

I think the team to put out a statement saying

it's just not good enough but

according to the team they did that via

service TV from the wider group

that's where they drew a line underneath it

so number one

he had to deal with that

and number two he had a struggling car

and two very frustrated drivers

all weekend

but I think there's an acceptance

they're just so far ahead

the championships both of the championships

are theirs it's not a question

of if but when

so I think they've got

that leeway that he's able to take it

on the chin and say ok we'll learn from this

we'll move on

I think he does it very well

I think

that team occasionally

I would say is a very

unforgiving environment

the pressure that goes on to the drivers

I'm just looking at

what Liam Lawson's going on

going through at the moment but certainly

there is absolutely no room for error

and it's a highly highly pressurised

team and environment

and perhaps differs

to some of the other ones

I'm thinking of

just some of the bigger teams

it's definitely a different way to go racing

it's their own way

Red Bull's way

so I think he handled it as best he could

horrible weekend

came out faced with music like they all did

I think they just were like right ok

bad weekend move on

we'll be good for Suzuka

and to be fair

it's exceptionally likely that Max

is going to win the Drivers' Championship

in Qatar so I guess that will help them move

forward and move on very very quickly

I want to honour all mentions

to some other people within the field

and George Russell

we need to give a shout out

and commiserations to George

he obviously crashed out in that final lap

and I think it just goes to show

the fine margins involved in this sport

that one lapse in concentration

if that's what it was

and he's into the wall and he loses all the points

and I don't know if you've ever had

any sort of similar experience

but particularly in Singapore

particularly with the physical demands

particularly with the mental demands of that track

after 62 laps

you then crash out and put it in the wall

and lose all the points that you gather for the team

I mean that must just make you feel sick

mustn't it?

It's one that every driver has been through

in their career

whether it is in your junior

career or you know

in the limelight and spotlight of Formula One

while watching over you

let alone for the leader of the race

or potential leader of the race like it was

for George so you've been that hero

for so many laps in the race

and you just feel like you can walk on water

and then suddenly

reality hits you

very hard in the face

and yeah he'll pick himself up

he definitely will

he's young, he knows he's got the talent

he knows the team are right behind him

but it's embarrassing

as he said himself you know

it's a very elementary mistake

silly mistake

and it's not like

it happens through a corner

and he just lost the car

or understeered wide

it's just placing

of the car before you turn in

and I've seen it happen so many times

people just dippin' a wheel

like Sergio Perez in first practice

a lap in Budapest on his outlet

dipped a wheel on the grass

and spins off and goes into the barrier

they've all done it

it happens to the best of them

yeah he's just got to pick himself up

but it's going to hurt for a couple of days

was he thrown though

the question was

because Lando hit the wall as well

Lando hit to Tenny he glanced it

and I wonder if he's kind of like you're hypnotised aren't you

you're following him so closely

he's trying absolutely everything he can

to you know

to get on his tail and make the miracle move

but he's so close he just

he's misjudged you by a fraction of an inch

and hit it slightly harder than Lando's kiss

and that's kind of what

what did it for him

yeah he only called it pathetic didn't he

once all the dust had settled

once he'd got through the emotion of it all

which must have been

absolutely coursing through his veins for about an hour

I think by the time he'd got

through all the TV interviews

it kind of started to settle

that's another one that got away

and you could tell from his radio comments

that he thought

this is what we could win

and he said it in the press conference

after qualifying

we're the only ones realistically

that could physically do a one or a two stop

dependent on the safety car coming out

because they had that extra set of mediums

and it worked out almost perfectly

that they were able to get those

and strap on the new mediums

and just throw caution to the wind

and attack, attack, attack

but once he didn't get the pass on Lando

done early

I think he was game over for him

and then he was gambling a little bit

and therefore made the mistake right at the end

so

yeah it's a shame for George

but he'll bounce back

he's going to win a load more Grand Prix

in his career

the thing I love him for

and the team for

it's so easy just to skip there

in second place, like Lando did

he would have picked up a nice shiny trophy

with P2 written on it

and yeah it would have been good

the team would have scored loads of points

and it would have been

quite a boring race actually

towards the end watching four cars trundle around behind the Ferrari

and after its tires

everybody else on the same set

it could have been a really boring end to the Grand Prix

if you think about it like that

but George wasn't willing to accept that

and neither was Lewis and neither were the team

and I really

loved them for the fact that they saw a bit of an opportunity

driven

pushed by George the whole race

what can we do to win this? I want to win this

I don't want to finish second, I want to win this

I can't overtake him on track

we have to think outside the box

and them doing what they, they made it a race

they all

Mercedes and their drivers made that Grand Prix

a fantastic Grand Prix

and one that was nailed by

and I don't

I don't care that George ended up in the barrier

because

he showed fighting spirit

and determination

and a will to win

and that it was

I win this race or nothing

for him and that was

I just

in a year where you're not going to win the world championship

it's Red Bulls, it's Max's

why not?

let's turn it into a motor race

exactly what it was to it

I

would like to think that I would have done the same thing

if I was in that situation

just go for it, what have you got to lose?

we all owe the Mercedes team

a debt of gratitude

to make it such an interesting race

a race at the end

a couple of other stories, the Lando

obviously finished second

but I also want to bunch this in with a chat about Aston Martin

because

McLaren are closing in on fourth place

with 28 points behind Aston Martin

and I think what's interesting here is

we talk about how

McLaren now, with the upgrades

have got two drivers who can score points

consistently over a weekend, Oscar Piazza and Lando Norris

are generally

they're all there about since the summer

you know, going to be scoring points

on the Aston side, yes

you've got Fernando Alonso, no one's doubting his

abilities and his ability to score points

but Lance Stroll, I've got down here

he's had one point in the last five races

and they do not have, as things stand

two drivers in that team

that can score points consistently

so Simon, I wonder

what you made of Mike Crack's comments

he said after

Stroll's crash and quality, it was a big hit

he wasn't in the race on Sunday

he said it's proof that he's in

I think this is another proof that he fully has it

he tried to make it a positive

spin it so that it looked like, yeah he's committed

do you agree

do you think that's maybe a bit of a PR

line from Aston or do you think Lance

is genuinely struggling in that car

well first of all

we're all glad he's alright

because that was a big one

I think Martin in his column

on Monday morning said, you know

you wouldn't have survived that in his time

perhaps in the 80s, 90s

whatever, before all of the safety

changes

became standard

that would have been a very, very nasty

shunt, it still was a nasty shunt

and I think a combination of that

and a hugely expensive

and extensive rebuild

of the car meant that they just

thought, right, let's take the decision

pause, get him right

get him back for Suzuka

so that we can

you know, so that we can get there

and just wash our hands of this weekend

because it didn't work out for Fernando Alonso either

he had that little pit stop, talking about the gambling

you know, 25 seconds he was stuck there

he got the 5 second penalty for crossing the pit line

pit lane entry line

so, all in all, that was a horrible weekend

for them, bearing in mind

that they'd earmarked this one

as a very good

opportunity to at least get a podium

and potentially for Fernando to push for the win

but they didn't look like they were on it

from the start of the weekend

really, so for Lance, look

you're benchmarking yourself against

to me, one of the top 3 drivers

on the grid

and you know, quite possibly

on a par with Lewis

and Max

because Fernando Alonso is that good

so you're always having

to compare yourself to that

and that is hard because he's not at that standard

he very much is not

Fernando Alonso, it's very unlikely

that Lance Stroll will become

Fernando Alonso in the future

so where's his head at after that

he was able to be, you know, reasonably

competitive against Sebastian Vettel

towards the end of Sebastian Vettel's career

but he has been blown away

this year, he's been unfortunate

he had obviously the pre-season accident

which he

came back strongly from but

he's not on that level and

if he was closer

they would be challenging for second

and they wouldn't be now trying to hold

their own for fourth, so they've got

an issue

and I'm fascinated with his father

only seem to see how

how it pans out because

I wonder if it's

a case of

is his heart in it, is his head in it

I hope for his sake it is

and that he bounces back

in Suzuka but only

time will tell on that one

it's one of the great kind of

quandaries at the moment I think in

Formula One what goes on there

Very unique to Formula One as well

not many sports have your father

owning a team and your son

driving for that team

very unlikely to happen in football

and other team sports

I can't really imagine that happening

or if it did that would be quite

kind of amazing. One

other story I just want to wrap up before we move on

to Japan and that's the Liam Lawson story

we mentioned him earlier

incredible performance from him

it was his first points in Formula One, finished P9

he also knocked for Stappen out

of Q2 which meant he

could proceed into Q3

and where do you see

the future because I'm seeing reports on

Twitter that stuff is

worrying around that obviously Yuki

Sonoda is going to be announced for

Alfa Tauri for next year so that leaves one

remaining seat which might well be

Daniel Ricciardo so what more could

Liam Lawson have done and what more could he

do in Japan

to ensure he's on the grid for 2024

Well I had a brilliant

saying during my time

as a driver Matt when they

asked you she would defer and

from him and I was

asking him at the time

what do you think I should do when I was a test driver

what do you think I can do

is there a chance, how do I

propel myself from being a test driver onto the grid

he said it's simple and

you take care of the present and the future

takes care of itself

and I never forgot that

that is a brilliant line

it's so true and that's all that

Liam can do and so far

he's really performing well

I'm super impressed what I'm seeing so far

out of the last three

Grand Prix two of them have been

incredibly tough

I mean Zanford with those mixed conditions

thrown into the deep end

with no testing

hardly knew the car at all

I think he'd only done one filming day

or something like that around the short

circuit at Silverstone so thrown into

the deep end in Zanford what a Grand Prix

to try and survive he did

did really well

made a brilliant plucky move

down the inside of a formidable

Charles Leclerc into the turn 11

chicane

precise

excellent showcase of visibility

and determination

and then Monza of course another good weekend

but an easier circuit

must say one that any rookie would choose

looking back at Nick DeFries

from last year

any drive would choose

Monza

have their first go out

or an early time behind the wheel

and then this

incredibly hard weekend at Singapore as well

I mean what a track

to try and

drive your fastest around

in a car you barely know

in those tough conditions then

my goodness he did a great job there

like you said Matt in qualifying

pipping Max Verstaff

and knocking him out

maybe

and sealed the nail in the coffin

at that moment we're ever getting a drive

it did cross my mind

oops sorry about that

guys yet

but he out there for himself

and I think he should be out there for himself

if the Red Bull deal doesn't work out

for him I know they've nurtured his way

and they've paid his way

to come about

for this opportunity to come about

but in the same way

that we've seen Pierre Gasly

in his own bed somewhere else

if he has to do that

and I don't know how their contracts work there

maybe take a financial hit as well

because I'm sure they sign up for a long time

with the Red Bull program

so be it

he was annoyed with himself and he stopped by

to talk to us afterwards because of his start

he achieved that

it got into the points

they've had four drivers there

and only Yuki scored points alongside him

and only one point more than him

he can't

can't have done any more

I think what they might do

is if they are going to announce Yuki for another year

and the likelihood is that

they trust Daniel Ricardo to come back

and give him the spot that they've

held out to give him

then what do you do with him?

so if you look with Alex Albon

maybe they'll send him out

on a piece of elastic somewhere else

that they can come back

and we were talking about it

I think one of the likely places for him

to end up is Williams

he's the kind of guy that's made such an impression

that

as my wife comes through the door

there we go, oh gosh, interrupting the podcast

I've just gone for a morning coffee

anyway

let me continue with my train of thought

hold on, what are we talking about?

Liam Lawson

I just think that Williams would be a good fit for him

imagine that as a combination

Alex Albon and Liam Lawson

he's got a really good head

on his young shoulders

I think he's exactly like Piastri

I think they've come in and they seem

let's go back to Y's

Y's beyond their years

so I think that

I think that would be a good option

I wonder if it is an option

or whether they just hold him back

as a reserve driver for next year

and then slip him in when they have the opportunity

but right now I think he's the kind of guy

that is a breath of fresh air

and we need more of that next generation

because

he seems like he's to the man of born

I reckon, I really do

I think what will be interesting as well

is what happens with Logan Sargent

and I think it's tough to say

but you can be a rookie

you can come into a car and you can look

really really good

I think we've seen that with Oscar Piastri

we've seen what Liam Lawson's done there

and I do wonder if perhaps you might see James Vowles

looking at what someone like Lawson has done

and go actually

is Logan Sargent our driver for 2024

but I'm sure time will tell

as to what happens with that

If you're a Red Bull and you're looking at it, look

you've got potential hot property here

in Liam Lawson

you have to nurture the young talent

and finding time behind the wheel

it's tough these days

you've got Daniel Ricciardo still there

once he's fit he'll be back in the car

of course and Lawson will go back to his super formula

or will he?

Do you really want him to be doing that

or do you want him to continue

to hone his skills in Formula 1

it's probably a better option

I would be wanting that

if I was a team owner at Red Bull

I'd be thinking he's done well so far

and he's done this with such limited experience

where's the limit for this kid?

I want to see that

I want to put him still out of the spotlight

relatively speaking

potentially in the Williams

they get a good driver from it

and we get our talent

to continue learning his skills

and against a formidable driver

like Alex Albon

in a nice environment

and yeah, go and learn there

and then when we think you're ready

or there's a space for you

we'll definitely have you back

and then you're going to be closer

to the finished article

It feels like the right step doesn't it

for both the driver and for the Williams team

and Anvals he said that didn't he

when he came into after Monza

he just said, look I've said to Logan

it's in your hands, you've got the next few races

to prove whether you can pick up the points

and at the moment

he's not

you see the opportunity to get somebody like Liam Lawson

you go right, okay

for the team

you know that's a really

potentially very good line up

and one that they've not had

for a few years and with Alex

pulling them in the right direction

if they've got a second driver

that can help him do that

then all of a sudden these

green shoots of recovery at Williams

are growing into smaller

plants and you know taking hold

and that's exactly what he's wanted to do James

and

it feels like at last Williams

is moving in the right direction

so I wonder if that will motivate them

for his signature

if they can get it

Time will tell

final couple of things

just before we say goodbye

Japan and you're obviously going out there

this evening rather I should say

what are your expectations

I know in terms of

we've spoken about the Red Bull

and we've spoken about we think that perhaps

they might be back with a vengeance

what are your expectations for that

and who do you think is going to be looking good

around Suzuka

Well I think the Red Bull

will surge back to the front

I think

they'll be the team to beat

it's a circuit I think will really

play to the strengths of their car

Max flies around that circuit as well

as one that he loves

so they'll be the ones

to get them with a target on their back

with the rest of the pack trying to catch them

I'm sure it will be

you know

a much more plain sailing weekend

as far as Red Bull go

after that I think it can be

it's going to be quite tight

I'm intrigued to see whether Ferrari can keep this pace up

my gut instinct is that

they won't

I feel like it will be more

Mercedes and McLaren

that none of them are picking up the pieces

and don't forget that we'll have

Oscar Piastri on the updates as well

that he didn't have in Singapore

so he'll be closer

should be closer to the

to Lando's performance

that track

and I really expect a really close fight

that battle

from Singapore will continue between

McLaren and Mercedes

Will Aston Martin be better?

I feel like they've been

slightly left behind

in recent races

the updates

haven't really been working out for them

other people have leaped in front of them

in the development race

left in front of them I should say

and

yeah I think it will be Ferrari

somewhere close to Mercedes and McLaren

but this time I think it will be

I think it will be McLaren and Mercedes

with whichever order in front

of the Ferrari come the end of the

race on Sunday

for interesting, Simon you'll be up

will you at 1am

from home?

yeah of course I will

to be honest

Japan is

just such a great circuit

you want to get up

to witness cars

going round Suzuka

taking

the S's

180R and all that kind of stuff

it's an amazing track

and it's a chassis track

it's effectively

it's going to be Red Bull

again unless

something

stratospheric happens

it's going to be Red Bull

but I just fancy I think

McLaren and the team are just doing this

with the upgrades this year

they've sorted out one of their Achilles heels

which was the low speed corners it seems

on Lando's car

that update worked really well for them

but just look at how we went at Silverstone

you know

and it's

becoming a good car

at most circuits now

and I think if you had to pick one team

that have developed best over the year

it's obviously McLaren

and you can see that in the results

and how they've got better so yeah

bring it on can't wait

it would be for my sofa

and not from the

tiny hotel rooms that Ann's got to get into

with the device

Crofty always says

you just pour some hot water on the rice

pillows and it fluffs them up

makes them more comfortable so remember that tip

we're going to leave it there

Simon and thank you very much

and sleep well

give my regards

for Yokoichi

we'll do Simon and Sushi

as well I know you love

you'll be missing out on it

explain who they are

what's that

is it a person or is it a place

who Yokoichi or Sushi

Sushi's a food map

Yokoichi is the place

we stayed but we're just outside

Yokoichi

and if you're not a Sushi fan

Domino's was recently opened

and Anna McDonald's

but that's brand placement can't do that

so yeah there's options but

it's an extraordinary

place Japan I urge you to go

if you've never been before

on that note

we'll leave it

Simon and thank you very much for your time

we'll be back next Tuesday to look back

at the Japanese Grand Prix

hope you can join us then bye for now

Machine-generated transcript that may contain inaccuracies.