Global News Podcast: US judge says Trump repeatedly inflated property values

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From global current affairs, to art, science, and culture, the documentary from the BBC

World Service tells the world's stories. Search for the documentary wherever you get

your BBC podcasts.

This is the Global News Podcast from the BBC World Service.

I'm Nick Miles, and in the early hours of Wednesday, the 27th of September, these are

our main stories. A judge in New York has ruled that Donald Trump committed fraud for

years by repeatedly exaggerating his wealth. The Speaker of Canada's parliament has stepped

down after he unwittingly praised a Ukrainian man who fought for the Nazis during the Second

World War. And an Israeli minister has become the first member of Israel's cabinet to make

a public visit to Saudi Arabia.

Also in this podcast.

It hurts a lot. You will read a lot what it says. It feels like an elastic band flicking

against your skin, and it absolutely does not. It feels like when you're frying an egg and

you get that spatter coming back.

Ouch, we hear about the growing market for tattoo removal.

We begin in the United States, where a judge in New York has ruled that the former US President

Donald Trump committed financial fraud when he was building his property empire. The judge,

Arthur Engeron, said Mr Trump exaggerated his wealth by over $2 billion. I spoke to

the BBC's Peter Bowes in the US and asked him what else the judge had said.

This is a very serious case for the President.

Just to give you a little bit of the background, it's part of a long-term investigation into

the Trump Organization and Donald Trump's business affairs in New York, a case brought

by New York's Attorney General, the Tisha James. It's a civil lawsuit. That lawsuit

continues, or at least continues in a courtroom as of next week. But what the judge has decided

in this summary judgment, which simply means that the judge believes that there is indisputable

evidence for him to make a ruling outside of the framework of a trial inside a courtroom.

So the judge has essentially agreed with the allegations brought by the Attorney General

that Mr Trump in his business world, part of his property empire had been committing fraud

over a number of years. He found that Mr Trump and his company deceived banks, insurers, others

by massively overvaluing his assets, exaggerating his network. This is on the paperwork that he

used in various deals. And it's significant that the judge believes that this goes further than

just bragging about his riches. He said this company, the Trump Organization, repeatedly lied

about the financial affairs. And the judge said that these were tactics that crossed a line

and violated the law. So Peter, what are the implications of this both now and when it comes

to trial, presumably a jury will then decide? Well, interestingly, this is a non-jury trial.

So this is going to be in the presence of a judge, but maybe that's a small detail. But the

implications right now from the ruling that we've just heard, some of the Trump Organization's

business licenses have been rescinded already. And that's an immediate effect that will limit

the organization's ability to do business in New York when we get to the case. And there are other

issues still outstanding. In effect, what the judge is ruling does is make it somewhat easier for the

Attorney General to prove her case because part of it has been taken off the table. But ultimately,

she is seeking $250 million in penalties against the company and a ban on Donald Trump doing business

in New York. This is a case that could last for several weeks. And we obviously won't know the

implications until it reaches its conclusion. Peter Bose. And Mr. Trump had denied wrongdoing.

Meanwhile, President Biden has joined a picket line in Detroit, urging car workers to stick

with their strike there. He made a brief speech at a factory on the 12th day of major industrial

action against America's biggest car makers. Mr. Biden is the first sitting US president to

join a picket line. He told the strikers they deserved a big pay rise and that it was time for

manufacturers to step up. You guys, UAW, you've seen the automobile industry back in 2004. They had a

lot of sacraments, gave up a lot, and the companies were in trouble. But now they're doing incredibly

well. And guess what? You should be doing incredibly well too. You deserve the significant raise you

need and other benefits. Let's get it. In your factory loss, okay?

Donald Trump is also expected to travel to Michigan on Wednesday to show his support for

the workers. The blue collar vote in so-called rust belt state is key to both men's presidential

election campaigns. US correspondent Gary O'Donohue told me more about the car workers' strike.

Well, it's a pretty significant strike. It's the first time the union, this big UAW

auto workers union has gone out against all the major manufacturers at one time. And it's really

about a number of things, partly about pay and conditions, but also about the sort of changing

nature of the industry. And the problem for Joe Biden here is that his green agenda in some ways

is coming up against the union's agenda because he's wants more electric vehicles, etc. That means

battery plants where there are less union representation and they tend to be lower wages.

So this is the sort of constituency he needs to prop up. Those auto workers and other blue

collar workers in places like Michigan where he is today are absolutely crucial to his re-election.

This is the rust belt of America. And this is what gets a democratic presidential candidates

re-elected. And they're crucial too for Donald Trump should he become the Republican Party

nominee. What is he going to be saying when he visits the same place, different crowd?

Donald Trump has successfully, certainly in 2016, persuaded these parts of the rust belt that he was

on their side. Now, of course, when he was in the White House, he prioritized tax cuts for

the richer part of the country. In many ways, the job started to leak away to Mexico and places

like that from these sorts of plants. But he's gone on the front foot again today. He said,

Joe Biden is letting your jobs go. I will save your jobs. He says, I will make you rich.

This is promised to the auto workers. So the old rhetoric is back and significant that Donald

Trump will be addressing non unionized workers. I think that's to ensure a kind of welcome he

wants. His message will be to the wider blue collar constituency in Michigan, Pennsylvania,

Wisconsin, those sorts of places. But he needs to make sure that the optics are right at the time.

Gary O'Donohue. The US government has launched a lawsuit against the retail giant,

Amazon, accusing it of stifling competition across a huge portion of the online economy.

The Federal Trade Commission and 17 American states say that Amazon's actions allow it to

prevent rivals from lowering prices, degrade quality for shoppers and stifle innovation.

From New York, here's Erin Delmore. The US's competition regulator, the Federal Trade Commission,

has been building its case against Amazon for years. It alleges that Amazon biases its search

results, favoring its own products over better quality alternatives. Also that it forces sellers

to offer their lowest prices on Amazon by placing them lower in search results if they don't.

The government also claims that Amazon requires sellers to use its network of delivery services

or risk being left out of its paid for prime program. In a statement,

Amazon's general counsel rejected the accusations, saying the company's practices increased

competition, innovation and selection and resulted in lower prices and faster delivery for customers.

Erin Delmore. In Canada, the speaker of the country's parliament,

Anthony Rota, has resigned days after a former Nazi soldier was honored there as a Canadian hero.

Jaroslav Honka, a 98-year-old Ukrainian, was given a standing ovation in the chamber

during a visit by President Zelensky. Mr Rota has apologized and said he regretted his mistake.

Grant Ferit reports. An event which was intended to bolster support for Ukraine and highlight the

strength of bonds with Canada has turned into a political and diplomatic fiasco. President Zelensky

and the Canadian Prime Minister, Justin Trudeau, joined the ovation for Jaroslav Honka in the

parliamentary chamber in Ottawa. Mr Rota said he'd fought for Ukrainian independence from the Soviet

Union and was a Ukrainian and Canadian hero. It quickly became clear that Mr Honka had been

a volunteer with a Nazi unit. The speaker initially resisted pressure to step down,

but has now announced his resignation. He said he alone was responsible for inviting Mr Honka.

A Jewish organization in Canada is among those who have accused the speaker of handing a propaganda

victory to Russia. Grant Ferit. There were public signs on Tuesday of move towards establishing

formal diplomatic relations between Saudi Arabia and Israel, an idea that was unthinkable until

a few years ago. For the first time, a member of the Israeli cabinet, the Tourism Minister Haim Katz,

has travelled to Saudi Arabia. At the same time, though, Saudi Arabia's first non-resident ambassador

to the occupied West Bank on a visit there has pledged that the Palestinian cause will be a

cornerstone of any normalization deal with his country. Our Middle East correspondent,

Tom Bateman, gave us his analysis. Well, what we've seen is a day of firsts in the

evolving public diplomacy of the Middle East. And you mentioned Haim Katz, who in the last few

hours it has emerged, has visited Riyadh. He's in Riyadh. He's going to spend two days at this

United Nations Tourism Conference. But the point is, this is the first public and official visit

by an Israeli cabinet minister to Saudi Arabia. So that is significant. And at the same time,

and I think the timing is not unintentional about these two things, we've had the first visit

by Saudi Arabia's newly appointed non-resident ambassador to the Palestinians. Now, he's been

in the occupied West Bank, in Ramallah, in the seat of government of the Palestinian Authority.

But this is the first such visit by a Saudi official in at least three decades. And what is

going on in the background here is that American-driven process to try and forge

normalization of relations would be a historic realignment of diplomatic ties

in the Middle East between two old adversaries. But it would effectively be a three-way deal,

because the U.S. would have to underwrite this. And it would also, very controversially,

mean the U.S. giving security guarantees to Saudi Arabia. And one of the things that we understand

is in that shopping list from the Saudis is they want very advanced American weapons.

They also want, very controversially, the ability to enrich uranium for a civilian

nuclear power program in Saudi Arabia. All of that's the quid pro quo for them

normalizing ties with the Israelis. Now, these things are a very long way off. I think it's

going to be at least months, but we've heard increasing signals, not least from the leaders

of all three countries. This process is continuing.

Our Middle East correspondent, Tom Bateman. Now, have you ever done something you bitterly

regret? Well, it seems many people have, because one market is growing,

tattoo removal. The BBC's Elizabeth Hodgson has been finding out.

On the sunny south coast of England, Brighton hosts one of the UK's biggest body art conventions.

And above the hum of the tattooist needles at this year's event, I chatted to one of

Slovenia's top artists, Simona Borsna, from Tauci Tatu. She says people sometimes regret

their tattoos because they followed trends which like clothes come and go.

I started tattooing 10 years ago and then it was really, really popular to get an infinity sign

and the like bird silhouettes flying out of it and also a lot of letterings.

And now after 10 years, people cover that up because it was a trend then and now it's not

trendy anymore. So I guess what I would recommend is just to get something that you really like,

not something that I don't know some famous person has. But not everyone puts that much thought

into it and getting a tattoo lasered off is an option. And as the procedures become more popular,

the technology has also got better, says Dr Dennis Das, a Beverly Hills plastic surgeon

and tattoo removal specialist. The newer technology is a picosecond

Andy Yag or Alexandrite laser. The newer technology delivers the energy in a much smaller

time frame. There's a lot more energy delivered to the tattoo so that we can destroy the tattoo

more effectively. It's easier to get a tattoo removed but it's still not cheap.

Removery is the world's biggest laser tattoo removal specialist and Joe Kelton is chief

operating officer. Using my own eight centimetre long full colour hummingbird as an example,

I asked how much it would cost to remove. For your tattoo, it would be around two and a half

thousand dollars and that would be around two years to remove. So if you've got the cash,

what's the experience actually like? This is Kirk Diggler's take.

Is the tattoo removal specialist I chatted to at the tattoo convention?

It hurts a lot. I'm not going to lie to you. I mean on a scale of one to ten, I would say the

pain level is probably a good seven or eight. It's up there. What's the sensation like?

Because you've got some tattoos yourself. Have you ever had one lasered off?

Yeah, I've lasered myself many times and I'm going to be perfectly honest with you guys.

You will read a lot what it says. It feels like an elastic band flicking against your skin and

it absolutely does not. It feels like when you're frying an egg and you get that spatter coming back.

Not everyone who wants a tattoo removed regrets getting a massive back piece or someone's name.

Part of the industry specialises in medical tattooing. Back in 2021, Tanya Buxton founded

the Mestectomy Tattooing Alliance, which raises funds to pay for people to have mastectomy

and areola tattoos. And a corner of medical tattooing also deals with removal.

If you have radiotherapy as part of your breast cancer treatment,

they tattoo in tiny little dots. It's like they're markers, they're radiation markers.

Obviously that's done at the hospital, so they're quite significant dots that look a bit bluey.

Like they're not very attractive dots to have. Many people find it's a permanent reminder and a

lot of people don't really want those radiation dots there anymore. You can kind of tattoo that

saline solution in to draw that radiation dot tattoo out. And you can also tattoo in

like a colour corrective pigment colour to neutralise the radiation dot colour and make

it look like it's like a freckle kind of thing. It's really clever what you can do.

People's reasons for having a tattoo removed are massively varied,

but whatever the rationale, it definitely pays to do your research.

Elizabeth Hudson reporting there.

Still to come.

Unlike sharks that never stop growing new sets of teeth, humans only get two sets.

But what if we could grow new teeth? Hope may be breaking through in Japan.

3. Where you can save on hundreds of culinary favourites. Cheese, crackers,

charcuterie, olives and chocolates plus short ribs, caviar and produce all on sale. Plus you'll

save on a large selection of wine including those made with organically grown grapes starting at just

$6.99. Whole Foods also offers the type of specialty items you just can't find in most supermarkets

from specialty flowers and mixes to a large selection of international foods

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2. Nagorno-Karabakh

As we heard in the earlier podcast, a top USAID official has called for international

access to the region, describing the testimonies of ethnic Armenians fleeing the disputed territory

as harrowing. Samantha Power promised nearly $12 million in support for them.

Armenia says it's now received nearly 30,000 refugees from Karabakh who left fearing that

Azerbaijan might start ethnic cleansing. Armenia and Azerbaijan have discussed the situation at

EU-backed talks. I spoke to the BBC's Kazranarji who's been seeing the refugees arrive in Armenia.

I am at this village called Kornizur which is the first village the refugees from Karabakh.

When they come to Armenia they arrive at this village and in front of me there's a long stream

of cars with their lights on. It's dark here now but you can see it for a mile. I can see from

where I'm standing. So they're still coming, big numbers. I've been talking to quite a few of them

in fact. They are days, they are confused, they are angry, they are tired and they don't know

what is going to happen next. Many of them I talked to didn't know where they were going.

A lot of them don't think they will ever go back to their homes.

What are people saying to you about the conditions in Nagorno-Karabakh that has meant they've had

to flee? A lot of shooting, a lot of insecurity, a lot of explosions around them and all the reports

of Azerbaijanis around them made them pretty fearful and a lot of them decided to leave

because of that. When I asked them whether they believed Azerbaijanis, when Azerbaijanis say that

they will guarantee their security, nobody said they will believe the Azerbaijanis. Don't forget

the two sides have fought several wars in the past three, four decades and there is no trust at all

between the two sides. And Katra, to what extent is there concern within Armenia itself

that what has happened in Nagorno-Karabakh may well not be the end of it?

Oh, there is quite a lot of concern on the out front because there are fears that Azerbaijan

with the backing of Turkey has territorial ambitions in Armenia and that is why people

are particularly concerned. Nikol Pashinyan, the prime minister, was talking about this,

blaming Russia for what is happening in the last week or so because Russian forces,

there were 20,000 of them were peacekeepers here, were supposed to keep peace,

but they looked the other way while the Azerbaijanis took over the land in Karabakh.

Kazanagi in Armenia. The British home secretary, Suela Braverman, has told a right-wing think

tank in Washington that the United Nations refugee convention, which was drawn up after

the Second World War, is no longer fit for the modern age. She argued that uncontrolled and

irregular migration was an existential threat to the West and that fearing discrimination for being

gay or being a woman should not be enough to qualify for refugee protection.

There is an optimal level of immigration. It is not zero. There has been more migration

to the UK and Europe in the last 25 years than in all the time that went before. It has been too

much, too quick, with too little thought given to integration and the impact on social cohesion.

If cultural change is too rapid and too big, then what was already there is diluted.

Unless countries can prevent or rapidly remove illegal migrants,

pressures on the state will compound over time. But the UK director of the Human Rights Watch

Group, Yasmin Ahmed, says it is more important than ever to support refugees and those who

offer them protection. The debate should be won rather than about how do we stop people from

seeking protection? How do we dilute our human rights protections and the international conventions?

What we are saying very clearly is the debate should be about how do we do global responsibility

sharing? How do we provide safe routes? How do we support the countries that host the most

refugees and asylum seekers, which are neighbouring countries? Once we undermine and

unstrip the international system, it means that we can no longer be saying to Russia that you

shouldn't be occupying Ukraine. We can no longer say to China that you should not be exerting any

aggression in relation to Taiwan. There are many, many and extreme consequences of the UK

unpicking and undermining the international rules-based order.

Well, the UK helped to shape the United Nations Refugee Convention in the 1950s.

So what's the core of Ms Braverman's argument against it now? I spoke to our political correspondent

Rob Watson. At the core of her argument is just that there are levels of legal immigration are too

high, but that also you're seeing such large movements of people. She says maybe the argument

should go that you would tighten the definition of who constitutes a refugee and her point being

that her argument being that perhaps you should make it clear there's a difference between persecution

that would definitely entitle you to refugee status, but possibly not discrimination. Say,

for example, she argued whether you were whether you were gay or whether you were a woman. And of

course, as you were hinting at there, Nick, what's really kind of striking about how the

modern Conservative parties moved so much to the populist right, it's worth remembering that back in

the 1950s, when this was being debated, it was Britain that was moving for a sort of a wider

and more universal definition of who would be a refugee. And Rob, this speech was made in Washington,

but it was mainly intended for a domestic audience, wasn't it? Absolutely. I mean, I think the first

important thing to say, Nick, is that Soella Braverman believes this. I mean, she is someone very much

on the right of the modern Conservative Party, very much on the right of European politics. You

heard a clear line on immigration, that there's been too much of it in Europe, that multiculturalism

had failed, as she put it. But look, I think that would be naive not to think this was directed

a domestic audience. And no doubt having in mind that the Conservatives, the governing Conservative

Party, a long way behind in the polls, are not seen to have had a good record after 13 years of

office. The thought being that maybe Soella Braverman and others in the Conservative Party will use

these kind of values issues, these culture issues in order to perhaps chip away at the opposition

Labour Party's lead ahead of the expected general election next year. And Rob, there's no doubt it

will be popular, this redefinition of what is a refugee amongst certain members of British society.

Yes, absolutely. It will certainly be popular in the governing Conservative Party amongst its

activists and MPs. But the opinion polling does consistently suggest that there is concern amongst

the British voters, primarily Conservative voters, about the levels of immigration in this country

and asylum, legal and illegal. Rob Watson. Well, the UN Refugee Agency has defended its convention

on refugees after the comments made by Soella Braverman. As we just heard, she had suggested it

was absurd and unsustainable and called for its reform. It said the convention had saved millions

of lives. Imogen Folks reports from Geneva. The UN Refugee Agency rejected the suggestion the

Convention on Refugees first drafted in 1951 needs reform. The agency also questioned Soella

Braverman's distinction between persecution and discrimination in relation to women or gay people,

saying it was crucial those at risk because of their gender or sexual orientation could seek

protection. A better response to increased arrivals and the asylum backlog, the agency said, would

be faster decisions on asylum and safe legal routes for refugees. Imogen Folks. Here in London,

five people have appeared in court accused of being part of a Russian spy ring operating from a

hotel in Norfolk in eastern England. The Bulgarian Nationals allegedly conspired to gather information

on behalf of the Kremlin between 2020 and February of this year. Daniel de Simone followed proceedings

at Westminster Magistrates Court. The five Bulgarian Nationals, three men and two women,

have lived in Britain for years. Some had apparently normal jobs, including a beautician

and laboratory assistant. But they're accused of secretly working as spies, carrying out

surveillance on places and people targeted by Russia to apparently assist Moscow in carrying

out hostile actions, including potential abductions. The alleged cell is said to have been run from

the UK, with members operating both here and in Europe. One of the alleged spies, Ivan Stoyanov,

is a one-time mixed martial arts fighter known as the destroyer.

It's alleged the spy cells operations hub was a now closed seaside guesthouse in Great Yarmouth,

occupied by one of the accused, Allyn Rousseff, who's said to have been directed from abroad

by a man known as Jan Marselech. He's not charged and is wanted in Germany in a major

fraud case. He's now believed to be in Russia. The five defendants appeared in court by video link.

They've yet to enter police and were demanded in custody to appear at the Old Bailey next month.

Daniel de Simone The International Criminal Police Organization,

Interpol, has issued a red notice for the arrest of the fugitive Venezuelan gang leader,

Héctor Guerrero Flores, who escaped last week from a prison where he'd lived a life of luxury.

He fled before the arrival last Wednesday of 11,000 soldiers and police who regained control

of the compound. Our Latin America editor, Vanessa Buschlukta, told us more about the

wanted man, Héctor Guerrero Flores, known as the boy Guerrero. He is the leader of a criminal

enterprise called Tren de Aragua. Tren de Aragua is a Venezuelan-based criminal gang which

started by extorting locals and then extorting migrants. There are many thousands and hundreds

of thousands of Venezuelans who've been leaving the country. And then, of course, as those migrants

left Venezuela, the Tren de Aragua also established itself in the countries where these migrants went

to. So, they've been seen in Peru, in Chile, in Ecuador, Colombia, Venezuela, of course, and Brazil.

Now, the leader, Héctor Guerrero Flores, who's now a free man at the moment, somewhere we don't

know where, had been in prison. It wasn't any old prison, though, was it? He pretty much ruled the

roost. That's right. So, he had been in and out of Tocoron Prison in Aragua State in Venezuela

since 2010. And he constructed parts of this prison into almost a luxury resort. There was a

swimming pool. There was a makeshift bank. There was a betting shop, a restaurant, a baseball

diamond. There was even a petting zoo because a lot of the inmates' families actually moved into

the prison because life there was more pleasant than life on the outside. So, during Venezuela's

economic crisis, there would be locals queuing to get into the prison to get the basics from the

inmates who sourced them from further afield. And this was widely known. The authorities didn't

seem to do much about it. It begs the question, why, if it was so luxurious, why would he want to

leave in the first place if he could carry on running his empire from there? Exactly. Well,

what some of the experts who know the inside of this prison have said is the reason why he stayed

in there for so long, because he was able to come and go as he wanted. He was once

seen by police on a yacht during a luxurious carnival party. And he actually showed them a

safe passage that he'd been given by the prison authorities that allowed him to come and go.

The reason why he now escaped is that it seems like President Maduro of Venezuela came under

increased pressure from presidents in the region, like in Chile, to do something about

the Trenderagua, this gang that he led. And so he decided to conduct a massive raid. He sent 11,000

soldiers and police into the prison to clear it and to regain control of this penitentiary.

And our man, Niño Guerrero, as he's known, he was tipped off to this. So he left just before.

Vanessa Bush looked at there. Now, in some countries, the Tooth Fairy or equivalent

rewards children for losing their baby teeth with money left under the pillow. After that,

if you happen to lose your adult teeth, there is no reward, of course, and it is a lot harder to fix.

But imagine if you could simply grow new teeth. It would be a world first if it makes it through

human clinical trials, but there is hope in Japan. CB Hobson reports.

Unlike sharks that never stop growing new sets of teeth, humans only get two sets. And if you

damage your second adult set, you don't really have many other options than perhaps a toothless

smile or paying for expensive dentures or implants. But scientists at a pharmaceutical

startup in Kyoto, Japan have announced they plan to start human clinical trials for a drug that

could help you maybe grow some new incisors, canines and molars. They hope it will work by

stimulating dormant tooth buds that disappear once we have our full adult set. But don't

stop brushing just yet, as the trials won't start until next year, and then it could take

several years for the drug to reach the market. If it does, it will be the first of its kind.

Dr. Katsu Takahashi, who is working on the study, told local media that the idea of growing new

teeth is every dentist's dream. The team has already had some success growing new teeth in ferrets,

which are both baby and permanent teeth similar to humans.

Phoebe Hobson, the world of mountain climbing is in a dilemma at the moment.

The legendary mountaineer Reinhard Messner has been stripped of two world records after a researcher

sitting at a desk using maps and satellite pictures declared that Messner had in fact missed the

summit of Annapurna 1 in the Himalayas by a few meters. It is apparently easily done.

The researcher has never visited the Himalayas, but did enough to persuade Guinness World Records

that Messner messed up. The record for the first ascent of the world's 14 highest peaks

has now been awarded to an American, Edvaistus. So it does seem odd that 38 years after the actual

climber, an amateur cartographer, a continent away, can act as referee. Messley himself says

it's nonsense. Evan Davis spoke to the mountaineer Alan Arnett. He's climbed Mount Everest

and in 2014 became the oldest American to summit K2, the world's second highest peak.

So does he think that Messner has been hard done by when his record has been taken away from him?

I think the overall situation doesn't really have a lot of point to it. If you talk to most

people who climb mountains, and I think Messner has said this himself, that he doesn't climb to

make records, to set records. He climbs for the personal challenge. And I think that's how most

people in the mountaineering community feel about climbing. However, there are exceptions in the last,

I guess, handful of years with people seeking headlines and documentaries and all sorts of

self-promotion by way of setting records. What is the most interesting about this, though, is the

idea that you can accidentally not make the peak. Now, just tell me how easy is it to go up all that

way and just get the wrong, the wrong little bit poking up? It's a really good question. You would

think that you would climb until there's no place to go ever higher. And by definition, now you're

at the tallest point of that mountain. But a lot of factors come into it. There's false summits where

you have unglading ridge line. The one that was really in question for Mr. Messner was Anna Perna.

It has eight unique summits on it. And it's kind of a ridge that goes up and down, up and down.

And, you know, if it's really cloudy or if you're in a blizzard and a whiteout condition,

it's quite plausible that you think that you're at the very top, but you're not.

You know, I think that there's really two buckets here. There are people that make an honest mistake,

and then there are people that knowingly don't make the summit, and then they come back and claim

they did. And that's fraud. And I think that's where the root of all this comes down.

But no one, no one is suggesting Messner did that. I mean, Messner didn't know. And he didn't

presumably know. Don't you have little devices to tell you whether you've hit the peak or I mean,

you just have to rely on your eyes. Exactly. We have GPS devices today, you know,

satellite photography. We have high resolution maps that you can look on Google Earth on the

internet and figure out where the true summit is. But back in the 70s, when he was doing this,

none of that technology was available. So really, it was up to the individual climber to make that

determination. Have you ever messed up ever climbed a mountain and come back and summited?

Actually, you made the wrong bit there. No, the real peak's over there.

You know, I have not. But comparing someone like me to right old Messner is truly apples

and airplanes. You know, I climbed with Sherpas. And in fact, my own story in this realm happened

on Manusloo, another 8,000 meter mountain. I got to what I was told was the true summit

in 2013. And I was told by the Sherpas who fixed the ropes. In this particular Sherpa had 20

summits of Everest. So I trusted him implicitly only to find out years later that in fact,

we had missed the true summit. And it was revealed by a drone footage taken a couple of years ago

that we had reached a four summit, not the true summit. The mountaineer Alan Arnett.

And that is all from us for now. But there will be a new edition of the Global News podcast later.

If you want to comment on this podcast or the topics covered in it, you can send us an email.

The address is globalpodcastadbbc.co.uk. You can also find us on X, formerly known as Twitter,

at Global NewsPod. This edition was mixed by Caroline Griscoll. The producer was Leah McChefrey,

the editor, Karen Martin. I'm Nick Miles and until next time, goodbye.

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Machine-generated transcript that may contain inaccuracies.