198 Land med Einar Tørnquist: Ukraina del 2 med Jørn Holm-Hansen

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Then I was also ready for part two of Ukraine.

I'm doing this with a player, making a quiz for this episode.

Listen to the episode, and then you can go into the 190 countries app.

And then you can enter the quiz code U2, and then you can, if you do the best there, win

the award-winning turn-quiz quiz race, which you will get sent in the post.

So do it, and then you will have luck, get 10 questions, answer quickly, and answer correctly.

I really want to come back to Ukraine, and then I'll try to find a way to do it.

And then I'll try to find a way to do it, and then I'll try to find a way to do it.

And then I'll try to find a way to do it, and then I'll try to find a way to do it.

And then I'll try to find a way to do it, and then I'll try to find a way to do it.

Let's come back to Ukraine, folks.

We're sitting here in the studio in Blomster, me and Jörn Holm Hansen, and have used a whole week

to come and say the facts about the box, which is a little new record.

It was very interesting and exciting to talk to Jörn, so we were able to do it like that.

And today, we thought that we might be able to solve the story a little bit, even back in time.

And we might be able to go a little bit back in time, too.

For now, it's like Ukraine is under attack from Russia.

It's war in Europe. We've seen how much we thought that would happen, or not.

But here we are, all of us, out in a bloody war, which doesn't seem to be a close-up of anything.

So, as we did in the Russian episode, we thought that we'd use some time on the radio

for some important events in the Ukrainian history.

I hope to understand the conflict a little better.

And we can start in really old days.

So, if I'm right, Jörn, there's a lot of history between Russians and Ukrainians

around what Ukraine is and what history has been like.

So, if we start with the first Slavic state, like Kyiv-Rica,

or maybe Kyiv-Rica now?

Maybe Kyiv-Rica now, Jörn.

Yes, maybe Kyiv-Rus.

We're starting to tell you a little bit about that. What's that about?

Yes, as you said, the first East Slavic state.

The East Slavic means that it's the people's state that has spoken a form of Slavic,

which was spoken in the Eastern part of Europe, where you speak Slavic.

There's West Slavic and South Slavic, but not North Slavic.

They were founded around Kyiv, and they had a first one called Volodymyr or something like that.

Volodymyr.

Volodymyr in Russian and Volodymyr in Ukrainian.

In Russian and Ukrainian.

It was a foreign language at that time.

It was called Waldemar.

It's a common language, isn't it?

Yes.

Yes, that was it.

According to the most important written language from that time,

next to the Kroenik, it was founded by the Vikings, the Scandinavians.

We Swedes, of course.

We Swedes didn't know that it was going to be Swedish, but it was, in any case...

You know that now?

...German people from the North.

They drove over Östersjön, up Elvenøn in Monas,

which is now home to the Lithuanian people,

or up Nordvina, the Danish Latvia.

They just drove over the country.

The Kroenik process.

It was a powerful carer there.

The pig.

And then they drove to Mikkelagard.

Mikkelagard, if not Istanbul.

Yes, the day after Istanbul.

Before the road to Istanbul.

Yes, Elvekruz.

And I feel that next to the Kroenik,

it was the ones who founded this state,

because they lived there before, they were so sick.

So they had to get out of there,

and founded them,

the so-called variation, or the being.

Yes.

Partly today, in Russia,

they talk about variation.

Yes.

And that's when the president speaks,

or worries that the governor will be elected

in a province, in the region, in Russia.

And that candidate,

comes from a completely different part of Russia.

Yes.

Then he is such a being, a variation.

Okay.

So it is partly, like in the political state,

the language use in Russia.

Yes.

Who is part of the use.

He is Vladimir, Volodymyr.

He was the leader of a very loose community,

but they were under attack,

very loose from the so-called bulgarians,

who are now other than the day's bulgarians.

Yes.

They were nomadic people from Central Asia.

And they were bulgarians?

They were called bulgarians.

Okay.

But they are now different.

Yes, I see.

The day's bulgarians are slaves and so on.

But he had to have another young partner,

and Byzantium was good to have.

And how did he...

Byzantium is a microgar,

and Constantinople is Istanbul.

Yes.

And that was an important city.

Yes.

And it was Christian,

Orthodox Christian,

Eastern Christian.

Yes.

How did they all start at that time?

They got married.

Yes.

And then,

Byzantium had a daughter,

like Anna.

Yes.

And she was married to Volodymyr,

and as a part of the pack,

they had to go to Kiev,

to go over to the Christian community.

But...

Is that what you do as a start-up in Ukraine?

Yes.

What do you do?

I do it as a start-up in Russia,

and in Belarus,

because it was in the fall.

Yes.

And there,

in Eastern Europe,

or Eastern Europe,

which I don't know how to call it,

it's more of a memory politics,

and it's very important to talk about history.

Yes, because...

It's almost understandable to us

how it can be talked about and finished.

And history,

that it's not just...

You can think that fag history doesn't talk about it,

but it's based on archaeological evidence,

and archives,

and that kind of thing,

but it's very politicized.

Yes.

And the Russian story is that

Kiev-Rica was the start-up in Russia.

Of course.

And only that,

and that in other folk songs,

which later became Ukrainian and Russian,

is actually a kind of Russian,

but a slightly different version of Russian,

and that the three folk songs

should actually be heard together,

not in the same city,

but in any case in a close relationship.

Most of the Ukrainian official stories

are completely different.

For them,

Kiev-Rus,

Kiev-Rica,

the start-up in Ukraine,

and only in Ukraine.

So this city,

was a very loose meeting place

with the main center in Kiev,

but there were different firsts around,

which were loose in connection with Kiev.

It was Podotsk, Nagorno-Karabakh, and so on.

It was surrounded by a roof.

Nagorno-Karabakh?

Isn't it in Russia?

Yes, in Russia,

so Kiev-Rus' roof,

most of the ones that are Ukrainian,

and most of the ones that are Russian,

and most of the ones that are European,

Russia,

so it was very difficult.

But after the 12th century,

it started to go up in resolution.

Was it in Mongolia?

Yes, it started to go up a little before they came.

They came in 1240.

And in the meantime,

many have moved north over,

into the Tyga,

the Barskog region.

The world's largest forest.

Yes, right up.

Moscow was a little bit of a landscape,

but it started to grow,

and that started to become a power center

in the Eastern Slavic region.

But then the Mongols came

and made this region under itself.

Moscow was the first one,

it was allowed to continue

its effectiveness,

but it had control over the Mongols.

Was it the Yulno-Horde?

Yes, the Yulno-Horde.

While Kyiv was in power,

and the western parts of the old Kyiv region

came into a big heart attack with Lithuania.

They could enter Lithuania,

it seems strange now.

Yes, there was another type of Lithuania,

but it is now.

It became very multinational,

and Baltic Lithuania was a little...

They were leaders,

and became Christians at the time,

at the time of the 13th century.

When they were going to have administration,

they had to go to the Eastern Slavic region,

because they had the church and the written language.

The administration language,

in the first place,

was something called the old Belarusian language.

The old Belarusian language?

Yes.

Just like that,

the western parts of the old Kyiv region

came under a different cultural heritage

than the eastern parts of the Yulno-Horde.

This was a big success with Lithuania.

At the end of the 13th century,

they gradually entered the Poles,

and became pollinated.

Okay, pollinated, that's the word.

They became Polish, at least the elite.

They began to speak Polish,

and to relate to the Polish.

In other words,

it became a dominant culture there,

and the effect of that was that

those who were going to become Belarusians,

they came into the western influence,

they came into the western church,

under the Roman Catholic Church.

Yes.

And they weren't very happy

with the science,

with the nature science,

with the research,

and it wasn't just to say that

Jora wasn't at the midpoint of the universe,

but it wasn't as much of a science

as the Orthodox church was then.

They were completely wrong.

No, and it had a different form of power.

For example, Adelaide had...

It was a democracy for those who were Adelaide.

They could meet on the Polish Reichstag,

and agree on that, and they didn't know anything about it.

So it was a different culture,

but it was in Moscow, in Moscow,

Moscow was rich,

which then took inspiration

from Mongols,

in a way, to rule over.

And the Herschkern had all the power,

and everyone else was the winner.

That's true.

The Poles will probably die several times,

because it's very interesting,

with regard to the Poles and the Ukrainians,

we have to find...

I can't understand if the friends find it.

What is your short answer to that?

They are very good friends,

when the Finns are in Moscow.

Yes.

Now it's like friends,

especially the Ukrainians,

especially the Poles,

who are on the outskirts of the right wing,

in politics,

so far away that it's almost no one,

are against Moscow,

and again,

with the fact that one loses in history,

is the fact that they are talking about history,

all of them, all of them,

this is being reputed for the Poles,

teaching them how to rule Tsarist countries,

that was ille,

teaching them how to rule Soviet Russia,

Soviet Union, that was ille,

both of them,

and then they see,

they feel like they're losing their way

with Putin in Russia,

that's a kind of,

all kind of perception in the population,

when the Ukrainians stand up against Moscow,

they are solidarist,

but at the same time,

there are Ukrainians

from areas that have been Polish

once in a while,

all areas in the east,

or west, for Nyebr,

that actually rule

through Ukraine,

if you divide the country into two parts,

have been Polish.

The Polish

memory

is the summer,

which is called Kresy,

a bit like the Poles' back,

and it is connected

with such a song,

a myth, a big hit,

the Ukrainian slums,

where the plagues steered,

and the great Polish gods

steered themselves,

and lived well

from useless,

erudite,

a little bit of work,

but it's a bit like that in memory,

but that doesn't really play

a role in Poland today,

but the problem is

this national conservative regime

they have in Poland,

and they play a lot

with this memory politics,

and use it

to build up

their own position,

and in memory politics,

it is very important

that the own nation is represented

as a sacrifice,

and that

they have clear heroes

in their own nation,

and some martyrs,

and that is

such a terrible point

between Ukraine and Poland,

that happened in the region

Valhynia, which is in the north

for Lviv

in 1942-43

I think

around 200,000 Poles

were massacred by

Ukrainian nationalists,

even though

the national conservative regime in Poland

is very much on the Ukrainian side

in this war, they can

talk about it,

but I don't know, from 2016

or 2017, the national conservative regime

was a folk word

and that means that Ukraine

wasn't against Poles

or they were soviet people

because it wasn't soviet

it was Ukrainian nationalists

who did this

in a period of

this period

that was occupied by Nazi Germany

so they were members

of the power that came

and massacred

Poles

in addition to a lot of Jews

who were massacred in Germany

West Ukraine

is a powerful

story that can be told

from the Second World War

Yes, it's not about the Jewish population

Of course

We jump back in time

to

maybe the 1600s

it could have been interesting

to see more of this

and then you said

what was the reason

for the gang being part of the story

Tell us about them

It's important

because in the Ukrainian

story

they played the same role

that the Vikings played in Norway

in the 18th century

with the proof

that we were great

and independent

and had great willpower

in the old days

the most important

was the

life that was

taken

and the life that was

people who were

lost

in practice

The difference is that

they had their own little

use of

food

that was stronger

in the West of Europe

because

in Russia

there was so much earth

and territory

that people just

drove

but it was

much later than it was

in Hossas

and one of them was stuck

and they drew on

some of the

Turkish Tatars

Tatars

Nogays

but it was far between

people so they

locked themselves down

and they locked themselves down

under the roof

and there was

Zaporizhia

What was the real reason

that you became

Zaporizhia

Zaporizhia

but they locked themselves down

and developed

a kind of

political organization

state dance

they gathered

on an island

out of

Dnieper

It is very

life-threatening

described in a book

by the Russian

Ukrainian

Mokola

Hohol

Nikolai Gogol

in Russian

it is described

by these

wild men

who are very noble

who have been beaten

by these terrible Polish

and full of

anti-Semitism

but at least it is described

by this wild life

and they locked themselves

under this Polish

Lithuanian society

and

came into conflict

with the big Polish

earthlings

and in that conflict

they were looking for a

alliance partner

and that was the Russian tsar

and there was an agreement

with him

in 1654

to start the settlement

of the language

Yes, I have heard that

and it was 300 years before

the invasion of the Crimea

in Ukraine

then you should celebrate

the settlement

of the language

for the Russian story

it is proved

that the Ukrainians

themselves chose

to be in alliance

under the Russian

and the story

was written in the Soviet Union

that they did not

have Ukraine to be under the Russian

but that they should be together

but the Ukrainian story

was recorded

there was an agreement

of cleanliness

and the Ukrainian story

was that there was an agreement

of cleanliness

to break the rules

and Ukraine was not any longer

in this historical era

you should look back at that

and that the Cossacks

were some smartlings

who did not mention the agreement

when they went into such numbers

and it was meant as a middle time solution

and not as it was in the solution

I know

and in that way

the agreement

that they started with

was a big area

and also a part of Ukraine

Yes, the Ukrainian story

was that

in addition

to Kyiv

this was the

agreement for the Ukrainian state

and it had a Cossack operator

Bogdan

Shmelnitsky

who went to operate against the Polakins

and who almost took

he took

Lviv

and that was a city

that was in the middle of the city

Yes, of course

that's how it was

in Ukraine

and then there is a letter

from the Cossacks

that I wrote to the Sultan

in Constantinople in 1674

which is very famous

it is also very popular

where there are scholars and teachers

writing this beautiful letter

a painting by Ilya Repin

which is a big painting

and the painting you can see

and the Russian museum in Petersburg

This is just your trip

It's just your trip when

Ruslan has left

and has come on a better path

Maybe they were a bit different

It's very funny because you see

how he looks at the Cossacks

how he calls himself

and understand this letter

how he comes up with suggestions

and how he should

most likely

I will read this

Why should they get close to him

to the Sultan?

It was a fight

It was a fight

with

the Sultan

The Ottoman Empire

It was a fight

about the Hellfire

In this area

there was a crime scene

that was under the Ottomans

under the Sultan

and it was

a fight about

control over this area

In this Taras-Bulbas

episode

where they take the boat

to Anatolia

to the Turkish part of Turkey

the other side

of what we call

Turkish side

where the side is

it's not like Antalya

No, it was for that time

It was before

I remember that

one time they came

under Slavic control

on the way

Ok, this is

the letter from the Cossacks

to the Sultan in Constantinople

in 1674

The

brother and comrade

Lucifer's secretary

Varsalax Helvetes Riddir

is the one who can

beat the shit out of you

This is

what the devil says

You are not worth

having the Christians under you

We do not fear you

and to the country and to the Cossacks

we will fight you

You, the Babylonian

Tönnebiner

Brügger from Jerusalem

Jetergut from Alexandria

Store and

Lille Egipt's Svinieter

Armenian Galt

Tartarskishevibok

Skurk from Podolia

Kamenatsbøddel

Verdens and Underjordens Domrian

Dettil

En dårde framfor Gud

Dievelnsavkom

Sendrage i vår kuk

Udöpte skalle

Knullin mor

Sliksvare kossakne deg din ursling

Du kommer ingen gang till

och få vågte kristnes vin

Nå, nu må vi avslutte

Vi vet ikke vilken dato det är

Eftersom vi ikke har någon kalender

Månen är på himmelen, år i boken

Å, det är samme dag hos oss

som hos dere

Derfor, kyss vår röv

Kanske var i Ataman Ivan

Sarko, med hele sin

Det är nog att sända i posten

Ja, det är kraftuttryck

Det är självt att du hör

Många som säger makadonske tönnebinder

och sån länge

Nej, det är inte det

Armenisk Galt

Nog i den dyr, kanske

Men det var ju okej

Så det var ju all så lite fra vikingtiden

och så lite fra, vad ska vi sida?

Barokken

Så vi lagt oss att komma oss lite närmare

Vår tid här ska vi göra det

Tjena märk av okraini

Kis mavan i boja

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Ucas annonsør

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and there is no end

After the First World War, we are going to talk about what happened in the First World War

but after the First World War, the operation will be

what is the first thing that is called Ukraine

which is a Ukrainian state

How did the state operation happen?

First of all, there was a government in Kiev

which was established in April 1917

and in April 1917, there was one revolution

The February Revolution

The October Revolution was a so-called bourgeois revolution

where it started with monarchy

and started to build a basic law

and get a European system

But Sarfamir was still alive?

Yes, he was alive

but they were already dead

as power factors

and there were many different movements in swing

who were happy that this old regime was over

and many of them were left-oriented

but not Bolsheviks, not communists, as Lenin was

and there were those who took power in April 1917

in Ukraine, a social revolution, some of them called

They were then deported, it was in 1918

by one of them, Pavel Skoropadsky

who had support from the Axis forces

from Germany and Austria

who were later divided with their support

in a certain way

and he called himself Hetman

over the Ukrainians

and Hetman is Kossak Høvding

or Ataman

Yes, one of the local chiefs

who used to work in Caner and Emire

but Hetman

and then he was wrong on the side of another government

and then the Soviets came in December 1919

but throughout this period

there was a complete chaos

on the circumstances that are in Ukraine today

There was a civil war

between the white, that is to say, the old government

that was very old, the old government, the old general

and various revolutionary groups

among them the Basaviks

and there were anarchists

and there were nationalists

and there were interventionists from

Germany, Germany, France and England

and so on

so there were a lot of gentlemen

at the same time

and there was such a small Soviet republic

in different parts of Ukraine

and one of them was such an anarchist republic

the Bonne Anarchists

It was just like that

so I didn't know where it came from

and there was a council

which was established as a council power

which led to another talk

but which became a party power

quite quickly

and they took control

but there was pluralism

and there were several different parties

and there was press freedom

and freedom of expression

and all kinds of things

Yes, they fought

they fought against the white first

and they fought against the Austrians

and they fought against the Bolsheviks

and then the Bolsheviks got a lot of control

of this democratic anarchist rule

which was very exciting to me

and then the war against them

and then they lost

and then there was Nestor Makno

because he had to break out of the country

and he had to stay in Malmo

if he was to die

Do you think it's always the worst joke you've heard about in history?

No, in a way

but if this wasn't enough

and it was found on the ground

by the Bolsheviks

in this area it was wrong to end

that they should take back the old country

So they fought against Kyiv

and took the big brothers

but in 1991

a peace solution came

the peace in Riga

which is called where the new borders

were stuck

and then the Bolsheviks went far

into what is Ukraine today

and Ukraine will disappear

into the Soviet Union

is that the point?

Yes, it was actually

December 1991

when the Bolsheviks took Kyiv

Yes, December 1919

then Ukraine is a part of it

Yes, I think so

No, it was in 1922

that's what happened

What does it mean for Ukraine

that the Soviet republic

was inside that for people?

It was inside in the first place

that Lenin's line

became dominant

through the 20s

and Lenin really had a grudge with Stalin

and Lenin, who had led the revolution

in 1917

the one that happened in November

and also the revolution

an alternative

when Lenin had it

he had a cool discussion

with Joseph Stalin

who came from Riga

the banker of course

from Riga

who was on his way up in the system

Lenin had

no, he was not a great democrat

but he was a very big resistance

He was a very big resistance

of Russian chauvinism

Russian chauvinism

and he was a member of

that all possible people's camp

would blow up

it was a little time

it was right after the First World War

that you had many tens of years

in the 18th century

where there were many national movements

around Europe

and a lot of this had led to new states

in Europe

the empires back to the Russian

Ottomansk and so on

they got Yugoslavia

Czechoslovakia and so on

and the Baltic states

and so on

Lenin was an extension

it meant that

people got to drive with

such a national momentum

and in any case

it would be great

for the new Soviet Union

that he meant

after the World War

that it would not be a Russian

but a national and proletarian

attack

so he pointed out

that when the Soviet Union

opened up

that it would be

it would have been great

if it had been taken until 1918

so he was quite reduced

but this was what he was asking

in the Russian Union

that

the Soviet Union

would be self-sufficient

self-sufficient republics

and national bases

when it was always Ukraine

there was a claim

that it would be a proper country

so he pointed out

Ukraine

the Ukrainian nationalists

meant that Ukraine would go even further

to the east

Lenin was a big part

of the Basque case

or Ukraine would be

a backward country

it had to have industry

and technology and work class

and everything that drove

the history of history

according to the Marxist theory

and he was also

a proletarian

but do you understand

that it should be a country?

formally a self-sufficient state

that went into the Union with other states

but Stalin

was increasingly called

autonomization

it should have a territory

but it should be a part republic

under Russia

the old Tsar of Russia

should be divided into

national units

but Lenin

got through

the rule of law

that the states

could tear out

of them if they wanted

and that's what

Putin called

the innovation

called a temporary bomb

as long as the party's leading role

as a communist

that the communist party

would have

a strange idea

it should be

but as long as it existed

it was fine

because the party didn't do it

but when it got democracy

people wanted to solve it

so Putin is very anti-Lenin

and he means

that Stalin's line was right

because Russia had

the state

but Lenin

also got through

the Ukrainianization

because he had

a general policy

called Karinization

it was difficult to translate

but it was a red line

that

the national culture

and the language should be red

on the territories

then people were sent

if it was very clear

they had to learn Ukrainian

there were so many cities that could

but then Stalin came to power

and then it was

completely

turned on

then it was Russian

then it was Russianification

and all the attempts

of the so called Ukrainian nationalism

were shot very hard

even if he was Georgian

he was Russian

chauvinist

so we are back there

I just want to

to talk a little bit about the

line between Norway and Ukraine

in history

we also have the Scandinavian Vikings

that founded Kyiv-Rus

Kyiv-Rike

and then we have

the little interesting

from the Middle East

the Norwegian duo

has a national freedom of name

and nationality

which took a lot of time

in Ukraine

and there was

help work

for an insult

catastrophe that came

in the water of this chaos

or the war

that we talked about

and it was interesting

because it was the first time

that we had such an international

coordinated

humanitarian action

and the freedom of finance

at that point was

the first time that we had a

FN

but the mission

like that

it was not

under the people's association

it was more like

free will

and so on

and then he came to ask

why the name had

citizenship in Russia

he had been in Siberia

and wrote about Russia

and planned to read a long time

about his experience

he was not a little naive

you have read all of his quotes

he thought he was a Ruslan expert

and he was a Ruslan expert

have you cleaned

as a Ruslan expert in Norway?

do you say that yourself?

yes

I feel that

I go in very bad fast

since I have been

a Ruslan expert

in my example

but he was

born in the Ruslan revolution

born in the Ruslan revolution

he was

a junior

in the General Staff

in Norway

we would specialise

in one country

it was the first country

if you had a list

of country people

you could invite

the General Staff

and Kvysling

he had planned to write about China

but there were so many Europeans

he chose Russia instead

yes, he was ambitious

and he was used

as an expert in Russia

because many others

after the Ruslan revolution

learned Russian

it was very positive

for the new regime

and Kvysling was

very much used in the higher pressure

and so on

as an expert in Russia

but what is interesting

Kvysling had

a bit of influence

on the communists

he was against them

because there were too many leaders

but

they were communists

they were against

but at the same time

they had a bit of power

and a lot of plans

and orders

it was not a big deal

no, it was a week

but he was

recruited by Nansen

yes, we need a guy

who has some ideas

and he was

sent to

Kharkov

Kharkov, as it is called

Kharkov

to lead

his work

and it was black-and-white

after a short time

it went over

it was also fast

this was not a part of the Stalin

it was 10 years later

and it was completely different

in a different way

but Kvysling was known

for being very clever

but there was a contest

at the Nansen-Mission

contest

to put on some romantic music

as you can do

as it is called, Alexandra

was alive

and was 17 years old

Kvysling, who was 18 years older

fell for

35 and 17, ok

he was also a blond and Nordic guy

but someone said

he was blond and Nordic

because of chemistry

and genes

and he married

but after 13 months

Kvysling just married

Kvysling

married another woman

Maria

from the same town

she was really

sitting in this

beautiful apartment

on the street

a third floor

every time you look

but it is a bit

it is said that the Norwegian

boss

found both icons in the archive

Slavic icons

according to the Nazi

race theory

in good sense

race fantasies

and the Slavs

under people

have real properties

Hitler wrote in his fight

that the Slavs are out of town

to dance their own city

very strong

and then he explained

why the communist

had to leave the city

where they had left

the elite

they were scared

but they were smart

the Slavs

and

some of the reasons

that he suggested

was that

the elite in Ukraine

had German genes

the other one because of

the Kyiv-Rike

Kyiv-Rike in 912

and then after the

colonization

of Groves

so

but we saw

what Nazi Germany did

when they threw it in

in Russia

they saw the Slavs

as under people

and they would not be

exposed as effectively

as they did with the Jews

but they would keep some of them

to do manual work

on the great goods that they would operate

but in the war

they would sell them out

they would take all the food

from them

and give them to the army

and then they calculated

that 20 million Russians

came to

attack me

but that was it

because they would say

it was not more

but then we can almost take

the roof in the Holodomor

and we are on that track

2333

then Ukraine and Kazakhstan

what we know as

Holodomor

it means something like

the death of Sulting

because there are millions of people

in the world

who come to Ukraine

what is this?

is it a catastrophe?

how did it happen?

it happened

because

the politics

is quite drastic in the direction

of the Soviet Union

at the end of the 20th century

with the introduction

of the first 5 years plan

the country should be industrialized

and the Soviet Union

should modernize

this area

with the control over

with the rest

of Russia

and this

has to do with industrialization

it has to build up the industry

quickly

that is what they did

they built a heavy dam

electricity

we got a network

electricity management

all over the country

but how do you do this?

you have to

get more food

to all the people who live in the city

and one way to do this

is to collectivize the land use

wait for the man

that will lead to a big drift

and the trust on big drifts

because it was big at that time

so they thought it was more important

for the industry workers

to be delivered

so that they don't have to

recover

at the same time

they tried to build up the industry

but when they tried to build up the industry

they also needed technology

machines

and they didn't have that

they had to buy from the USA

and the west of Europe

and how they bought it

you have to have value

you have to come

who is responsible

and how do you get

the same value

that they had

so they exported

their own value

and then they bought

the machines

the effect of that in the past

was that people died of acid

on a land building

and it was too dangerous

really

the pictures of people

and people ate

grass

and everything

so one of the challenges

was the Stalinist

total cynicism

and brutality

and this is actually

in the black josh belt

so it was in the Ukraine

the Iranians talked about it

in the most terrible way

but could they

keep it a little bit

but if you think

why didn't they think about it

because it was

the beginning of the terror regime

the idea that

there was sabotage

every time something didn't go well

there was sabotage

there wasn't enough money

there were some

who had to smoke in the tank

in the tractor

they shot 50-15 people

in that country

this is always

the black josh belt

most people

the most terrible black josh belt

most people in the black josh belt

were in the Ukraine

so they were the most affected

by this

but in the percent part

there was a Kazakhstan

who became the most affected

by this, by the population

who died following the war

and there were millions

the percentage of Kazakhstan

population

90%

up to 4 million

in the Ukraine

it was difficult to clean

but they have been through

the first world war

they have been through

a short-term state war

with a complete chaos

in the Soviet Union

there will be a flood

catastrophe

there will be a second world war

flag of Ukraine

in Slovakia

there has been a saying

that holocausts start in Ukraine

I don't know if it's exactly the first massacres, but it's true that it took off in Ukraine.

If we go to August 27, 1941, there will be 23,600 massacres massacred by Kamenetsk and Podolsk in Ukraine.

It was the first massacres with over 10,000 victims there.

The most well-known massacres were in Babidjar, on 29 and 30 September.

There were 33,771 murderers who were led out to the ravine and shot and buried.

How did it go? Where did it come from?

It was led by the foreign policy of the Nazis over the ravines.

But in the Middle East, it was used in the case that there had been bomb explosions in Kiev

right after the Nazis had taken over.

The Germans had come to take over.

People from the Red Army had laid out explosives in important buildings.

The Germans had come to take over.

They had taken away the bombings.

There were quite large casualties and many dead people.

We had seen pictures of them.

There was a picture of a well-known film called Snutt.

It was a propaganda film from when the Germans came in and people were killed.

There was a picture of Adolf Hitler on the bus.

There was a beautiful street picture.

And then a building exploded in the air.

Of course, this was the German film.

Of course.

The Germans were able to meet on the ground of two streets in the center.

They had to take the most important parts with them.

It was done by people.

People didn't know about it, but in the same situation,

many thought that they were going to send us to Palestine.

I have talked about the Nazis.

They had to place their land away from Europe.

It was a wishful thinking.

After a while, when we got closer to Bavaria,

the ravines were removed first.

I don't know if you can feel it, but...

We have one of Rubenstein, who was a young man,

who managed to get out of the ravine.

He was almost completely out of the ravine.

He said that, first of all,

there were five checkpoints,

which had to be delivered in the papers,

which were burned on a bolt,

so we had two of them,

because all of these things were made of gold.

Gold tenners were printed and so on.

On the third one, all the textiles were delivered.

Now, for example, there are people naked again.

On the fourth one, there were the cuffs,

and on the fifth one, there were women and children,

from men and tenners.

They had to dig a hole,

or they had to tell the story.

That's what I'm talking about.

So that was the way it was.

And then it went to the ravine,

and it was shot.

You can imagine how it went up for people.

After a while,

when you had that wishful thinking

that you would be sent to Palestine,

it was really sent more and more.

And I read one of the 19-year-olds,

or you,

a witness,

how they got close to the ravine

and heard the scream of God.

Then you started to understand...

Yes.

It was put up on the ground and shot.

Yes.

And this was...

There were several such stories.

One of them is called Dina from Nicheba,

a shoemaker,

who also had a career after that.

He was stood up,

like everyone else on the corner,

and fell down into the ravine.

He had a very weak appetite.

The one who shot,

thought he was shot,

but she was not shot.

First of all, he was dead.

Then he went down into the sea,

while the last one was shot

by everyone who had continued to scream

after the air,

and was not completely dead.

Of course, the situation was terrible.

And then,

there was the sound,

and then

you had to lie there in the dark,

with a little bit of air,

and then you could come out,

and scream at night.

You could see what the situation was.

And then there was

Vera Bondarchok,

who is a little interesting to her.

She was taken to the side,

completely silent,

because the mother was able to think

as soon as she saw the assistant,

that she was adopted,

so she was actually taken out,

because the worst assistant I could think of

was of course the one who was not killed.

It was too late to kill people in that way.

And one day, around 2000,

two people were given a stream,

a well-known Norwegian

band, Cardiff supporters,

and program leaders.

They received a phone call from Vera Bondarchok,

who has moved to Ås in Akershus,

and we want to tell the story

since she is the only survivor

from Babbagear.

I want to tell the story.

It's almost a post-traumatic stress.

Yes.

The one who survived

and grabbed himself out,

and...

It's a bit difficult

to get over yourself.

It was not...

There were Norwegian people involved here,

and we almost had to lie

ourselves on it.

There was a Norwegian band called Ukraine,

called Front Kempere,

during the Second World War,

with the promise of being killed there.

It wasn't what was...

Yes, it had such promises.

Yes, and of course we would get

some undershots to work for

so-called subpoenas.

After the Second World War,

Ukraine is in

Soviet,

in the south of the country.

What happens next year

before Chernobyl?

South of the country,

it's a good decision.

I

myself,

the UN Republic of Ukraine,

was excluded, but...

Yes, it was excluded.

Why did you exclude Ukraine?

The reason was

that the Soviet Union

needs

security.

And the more territory we have,

the more secure we are.

In addition,

there is a rand zone

in Europe

of the country

that is working hard

to integrate the defense

of the economy and so on

with the Soviet Union.

Poland, Czech Republic,

Hungary, Romania, Bulgaria.

So it was a security

thing.

But okay,

it's just a part

of the Eastern Bloc

where we know

the gray and gray areas

with a bit of bad weather.

Yes, and it was difficult to see

the difference between a Belarusian,

Russian and Ukrainian city

at that time.

We can go to the 1990s,

we can jump over Chernobyl,

and say something about

what happened in Ukraine

if we can just jump over it.

They were lucky with Chernobyl,

because the wind blew away

the other way.

As you can see, it didn't

break that much.

No, it was in Forsmark,

the nuclear power plant in Sweden.

People were checked

out and inside the nuclear power plant.

They were checked

to see

if they had a lot of stuff on them.

And they were

allowed to go when people were on their way in.

So this is where it happened.

So we went back,

from the last 42 hours,

and now it was

possible to go to Chernobyl.

There were two things.

One was

the information.

It took six days

before the information came.

It was possible

before he came in.

Yes, it was possible.

But it took a long time.

He had never

started talking about glass,

and the catastrophe

led him to the future.

That was the politics with openness.

The other thing you knew was

the backwardness in technology.

It was bad technology.

And maybe a third thing,

that it was dangerous to

tell from

the situation,

the way it was.

We have seen that now.

We are talking about Ukraine,

the invasion of Ukraine.

We are talking about Granit,

with apostrophe.

So it has been a bit

about the reality.

I have not been in person with a

serious matter of optimism.

There is no other way.

The same thing with Chernobyl.

If we were just going to say it,

the way the technology

had a weakness that they did not know.

If you were to turn the reactor down

at the speed or the effect,

it would be unstable.

So they did not understand

what was going on.

They reacted in the wrong way.

Everything went wrong.

When the whole rhythm was broken

and this would be reported

to Moscow, they did not know

where it was.

Moscow heard it was a bit better than that.

They put it in the way,

turned the reactor down.

It is not there.

There is no way.

Then the people of the country

have turned it down.

They do not understand

what is going on.

The flow of this is incredible.

So the kind of

power structure

based on fear.

It is so vertical.

It is incredible to drive

when something goes wrong.

So it has to be learned from us.

It is also interesting

that you can just see this TV series

in Chernobyl.

There are some dramatic times

that are not completely true.

What is good is how they have

managed to create

interiors

from the Soviet times.

I started to look at it

with a certain negativity.

I think it is so hopeless

when we are from Ukraine

and speak English.

But I forgot quickly.

Because it was so incredible

good work

I think it is the requisitioners

who have created

interiors.

It is relatively cheap

to make, for example,

from Versailles and Solkongen.

It is a bit expensive.

You just have to find something

that is expensive.

It is not so expensive.

It is among the rubbish

that has been thrown at us.

It does not exist in reality.

But it looks good.

Jörgen, I just think

that they are here talking

and we have not even talked about

how soon

Ukraine has been sent to the state.

If you have time to just sit a little more

then we will make a little episode.

One more episode?

Yes, one more episode.

Psst, it is me.

One of the guys here. He is from 198 countries.

Now I have created

a 198 countries app

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You can test yourself

against the rest of the Nordic population.

You can see how you do it

in Geography Quiz.

Plus you get a daily challenge.

You can test yourself.

It is a great Geography app.

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Machine-generated transcript that may contain inaccuracies.