This Week in Startups: Should Apple buy Disney? Plus: Apple's $1B blockbuster bet and more with Lon Harris | E1831

I don't even know how some of these budgets are getting as high, like secret invasion

that Marvel show that didn't even look very good, people are saying it cost over 200 million

to make.

What?

Yeah, it's getting crazy.

I mean, that's the number one thing.

All of these budgets need to come down, and you can't make that much on these kinds of

projects.

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All right, everybody, welcome back to This Week in Startups.

It's been a while, but Lon Harris is back.

We're doing This Week in Streaming again, and there's so much going on in the streaming

world.

And you know what, always we talk about the technology behind this.

We talk about the media.

We've really widened the discussion out to talk about technology in relation to entertainment.

So consider this your entertainment, technology, media, episode, all together, and then also

at the end of the show, Lon and I tend to trade recommendations, and you know, everybody's

always looking for a good show.

So at the end of the show, we'll trade some recommendations, but let's get right into

it.

I know Apple has, I think, done a really great job in terms of building content.

I thought this was going to be a disaster for them, but it seems like they've done

a pretty good job.

And there's rumors they're going to buy Disney.

That rumor's been out there since, you know, Steve Jobs sold Pixar.

And now with I Your Back, there's renewed focus on maybe ESPN getting spun out, and

the NFL, NBA, maybe Apple investing in it, and it becoming a standalone company.

And who knows?

With Lina Khan in charge, they're going to fight every sale.

But I just want to ask you upfront, before we get into Apple in detail, what would that

look like if Apple, to you, owned Disney?

Would that be good for the creative community?

Would that be good for consumers?

Would that be better?

Have you given its thought of a company like Apple owning a company with the IP of Disney?

I mean, what we've seen is fewer players when these companies consolidate, it doesn't usually

work out the best for those of us, like viewers and fans.

I mean, if you look at Warner Brothers Discovery being the most recent example, you see a lot

of layoffs when these groups combine.

You see a lot of the new company deciding it doesn't really need to focus on things that

the old company was focusing on.

So Cartoon Network kind of gets shelved and all of these like Batgirl isn't going to come

out anymore.

And so I think there would probably be more stuff like that.

Having said that, I think Apple has been doing a really good job in terms of curating

its streaming content.

There's not as much content that goes out on Apple TV Plus as most of these other big

platforms, but the quality level, the consistency level has been a lot higher.

So what do you attribute that to?

What do you attribute Apple being good at this?

Why are they good at it is because they don't care about making money.

Where they just have a good philosophical approach to making quality products.

What do you think is that?

I think Apple's approach to tech, to hardware, to everything has always kind of mirrored

old school Hollywood's approach where it's a focus on quality, it's a focus on individual

products, and it's a holistic kind of thinking, not just thinking about here's the specs.

Here's the specs.

Here's how we're going to promote it.

Here's what celebrities are going to be in the ad.

Here's how the keynote's going to sound.

It's looking at it from all these angles.

It's thinking about it in terms of the branding, in terms of the marketing.

All that's baked in from the very beginning.

And I think that is also a good way to approach films and TV shows and that kind of content,

taking this very specific, very hands-on approach, really thinking about it.

Right, thoughtful and long term that they're coming in.

They're not going to make like, let's make one season of foundation.

This big, epic Isaac Asimov show will make eight episodes and then see where we are.

They came in and said, like, we're going to dedicate ourselves to this for three, four seasons.

We're going to give David Goyer a really long time to figure this out, which is the old Hollywood approach.

An orter.

You have an orter.

You had somebody, like the kid stays in the picture, Bob Evans.

And you put an orter in there who knew what art was and had a point of view.

And then you see where they take it, right?

And the same thing with the Pixar guy who got ousted, but sadly lesser.

Yeah, and foundation season one, it didn't necessarily strike a core.

People didn't really discover it.

It was one of those like, they didn't spend as much as Amazon spent.

They only spent 60 million on that first season instead of 120 plus million.

Got it.

But by season two, starting to get some critical acclaim, I saw more people talk about it this year.

I did.

I forgot that it was there.

My wife wanted to watch it.

It was another one of these streaming couples issue where she wanted to watch it.

I'm on a plane.

I watched the first episode.

I'm like, this is really interesting.

It's terrific.

And then I have to stop myself.

You know, and this is the problem.

See, you're lucky because you're single, I think.

I don't know if you're still single.

Ladies, you might be, Lon might be available.

Swipe right in Raya, if you see him there.

But if you want a really great, sweet, sincere, hardworking guy,

that is your Lon Harris, ladies.

You're too kind.

You're too kind.

Well, you know, if you want, I mean, also a guy might take you to see a really

intellectual movie and I just want to, you know, remind me.

Past lives, it's going to be one of my recommendations at the end.

But I want to talk about past lives.

I haven't actually seen that yet.

I got to get around to that.

Yeah.

OK.

So here, this is super timely because you and I are both, both, I would say

Marty Scorsese is in both of our top three to five directors.

Oh, yeah.

I already have my tickets for this one.

I'm going on Thursday.

Yeah, I'm going to be traveling internationally.

So I won't be able to see it, but I cannot wait to see killers of the flower

moon, Martin Scorsese, Scorsese, Leonardo DiCaprio, Robert De Niro,

the kid from Breaking Bad, Jesse Clemens, Lily Gladstone, big cast, big cast, big cast.

And this is supposedly a great film.

Very critically acclaimed, very positive.

Yeah, I'm excited.

I'm excited to see it based on real history, like a fascinating true story.

I think most people don't know, which is amazing.

And I hear it's a little violent, which, you know, sometimes happens in his films.

But I hear a very important film as well.

There's a little bit of, you know, a little bit of importance to the film,

I think, to some folks, and it's something that, you know, will make people discuss.

But would that film have been made by anybody other than Apple?

And then how do you think Apple looks at backing?

Because this was backed by Apple, correct?

Yes.

And so it's in theaters first and then it goes to Apple.

Apple's doing the strategy where they're opening the films theatrically for a few

weeks and then like a month later, they'll come to TV Plus.

And the old school, like in the early days of streaming, there was this zero

some kind of approach, like, well, wherever the movie goes first,

that's where everybody's going to watch it.

And then it's useless on every other platform.

I think the I think bootlegging was very at the top of everybody's mind.

They were like, just like piracy.

If the movie gets pirated, then nobody cares when we bring it out officially.

And they were there was a lot of fear about that.

And what we've now seen is I don't really think that's true.

In fact, the more places something is available, the more heat and buzz it can build up.

We've seen this happen over and over again.

We're actually opening in theaters, makes people want to see a movie more

when it comes out and streaming.

Yes, it increases the value because the the movie, the theatrical run was a

was marketing for when the movie pops up on streaming.

And who still goes to movie theaters?

Who still goes to movie theaters, one?

Only like like younger people, hardcore fans, like a smaller, right?

And we know they are vocal in their group chats, their vocal on social media.

They're the ones like you and I, who their friends come to and say,

what should I watch next?

It's it's it's exactly what we're talking about.

Like it's buzz, it's heat, it's it's now it's in the discourse and people are

talking about it.

And the more people are talking about something, the more people want to see it.

And that's just so true that that outweighs any kind of platform

exclusivity, at least from what we've seen.

So this is the anti-Netflix approach to be clear.

Right. It's the anti everybody approach.

It's it's all of that stuff about only you can only see this on Peacock.

It's only on Netflix.

That that ended up being not there's one great example.

So HBO Warner Brothers Discovery a few months ago, Zaslav made a ton more enemies.

He he infamously Zaslav he infamously announced.

We're going to we're going to keep HBO shows on Max,

but we're also going to start licensing them out to other platforms.

And people at HBO were very upset.

They were like, this is the whole thing.

We can't let HBO.

That's our that's our bread and butter.

That's our life foundation.

Yeah, we can't let HBO shows be viewable anywhere.

It's not TV. It's HBO.

That was the whole thing.

And what ended up happening, ballers and insecure.

They're now on Netflix.

You can go watch those on Netflix.

And more people went back and started streaming them on Max

after they popped up on a sense.

So Netflix is marketing HBO Max.

It right.

People saw ballers on Netflix started tweeting about going back and watching

ballers and then people who had Max were like, hey, you know what?

I'm going to watch ballers.

And so it's spiked on both platforms.

We saw it as well with suits.

Suits had always been available on Netflix.

But when it popped up on Peacock as well and more people started watching it.

Yes, everybody's going crazy for suits.

Isn't that show off the air and it's been on the other one?

That's a 10 year old USA network legal drama.

When it was on TV, nobody cared.

So that one there's a there's a second issue, which is Meghan Markle.

Meghan Markle was just a TV star when suits was first on TV.

Now Meghan Markle is royalty and much more famous.

And so people are curious to go back.

But I don't think you can entirely attribute it to that.

I think people just didn't know about suits.

And then they discovered it because it was readily available.

What I love about Apple's approach to Apple TV plus is I think that they don't

care on the margins if this makes any money or not.

They care if it's incredibly high quality and it, you know,

speaks to their audience.

Apple's revenue is in 2022 was five times greater than the revenue

of the entire film industry.

Apple revenue last year, three hundred and ninety four billion dollars.

Total global film industry revenue, global, global with a G, seventy seven billion.

Apple generated three hundred and ninety four billion in revenue

on about a hundred billion in profits.

In other words, the profits at Apple are greater than the sum of the global

film industry, not that includes Bollywood, that includes China, that includes all that.

So if Apple does spend a billion dollars on these theatrical releases, etc.,

that's about one percent of its annual profits, 25 basis points of its annual revenue.

That is a no brainer for them to do even two or three percent

if it brings the halo effect and keep people on their devices like iMessage does.

And now Apple TV is included with every phone or is that a do you have to pay for it?

Because I pay you for it.

I believe you get like six months free every time you buy a new Apple hardware item.

So if I get an iPhone this year, I get the next three or six months free.

And then I might have to start paying my five or six dollars a month.

But I think at that point, I have the bundle.

I don't know what's called Apple One or whatever the bundle is.

I think it is called Apple One.

I have Apple One because now I have three daughters, as you know,

three wonderful daughters.

And then I have my wife.

I just did it for storage so that all their devices I could share the storage on it.

But then it was like, oh, you can have news and arcade and Apple Plus music.

Arcade is a good one.

And arcade is a great one for the kids because it has non add,

non mana begging for money games, which is great for a parent.

Also, news is kind of nice to have on the margins and music is delightful to have.

And obviously, you know, Apple TV and then we buy some new device,

but I don't know if they credit you for it. I don't care, but Apple should make it do.

I think because you're all of those payments are happening on your Apple ID.

It's all one.

So I think that, yeah, they just give you if you're paying for it,

you just get three months of it for free.

And if you work paying for it, you can use your Apple ID to log in

for three months or however long the period would be great.

If they just made it so any Apple device,

they know it's an Apple hardware device, even if you got it a hand me down,

could just get into Apple TV Plus for X number of hours per year.

You just got a certain amount of research already playing around with that

because they've got this like major league soccer pass

and they're thinking about doing more sports like Formula One is a big one right now.

There's a big maybe Apple's going to jump in in 2025 and grab those F1 rights.

And so those they're going to make some of the content free for everybody.

And then some of it behind the paywall.

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Talk to me about the budget for killers.

I'm just curious, like, what this film would have cost if Apple wasn't doing it.

And if Apple wasn't in market, who would have paid this?

I mean, is this higher than you think?

Yeah, I think one of the brothers would have spent or whoever.

Scorsese would have found.

I doubt anybody's going to kick Scorsese to the curb and say we're not interested

just because his movies are you're you're automatically in the award season talk

in festival discussions just because of his name.

It's the budget.

I think if he wasn't working with a prestige player like Netflix or Apple,

he might have to make more concessions in terms of the budget.

Like the Irishman famously got pushed way over budget

because of all the digital de-aging stuff they were doing

on Euro and all those scenes that adds up over the course of a three plus hour movie.

This one, you know, it's period, a lot of location work.

You got to, you know, Caprio alone is 25 million right off the top.

And then he's getting a chunk of the back end, too.

So, yeah, you know, these these cost that up.

And I definitely think that if he was making a more conventional studio movie,

he'd have to probably think about those margins more than he does.

He could just call Tim Cook and say, hey, I need 20 more million.

I mean, Wolf of Wall Street, just by comparison.

100 million in 2013, which is about 130 million

of today's dollars a decade later.

And he he did the Irishman with Netflix last time.

And that had the de-aging and everything.

So that is interesting.

He he used the Singapore.

I think it was a Singaporean, that very famous

Brujaha, where the Singaporean wealth sovereign wealth fund back Wolf of Wall

Street, but it might have stolen money or something.

Yes, that's like a lucid figure, right?

Like, yeah, he testified at that at that trial at that celebrity.

Irishman, 159 million.

So if you look at that 130 and, you know, today's dollars, 160.

And now, I think 250 with killers of the Fire Moon probably costs.

I mean, we are also coming out of an era where those budgets got massively inflated.

I don't I don't even know how some of these budgets are getting as high

like secret invasion that that Marvel show that didn't even look very good.

People are saying it costs over 200 million to make.

Like, yeah, it's it's getting crazy.

I mean, that that's the number one thing all of these budgets need to come down.

And you can't make that much on these these kinds of projects.

You need to bring the budget somewhere.

And it was the Malaysian. Sorry, it was Malaysian.

So Malaysian, right?

The Malaysian Singaporeans would have never fallen for this.

Singaporeans got a pretty serious.

No, I'm dead serious.

Singapore is a very hardcore country when it comes to capital allocation.

I think that they have a very sophisticated group.

They probably wouldn't have gotten scammed.

Yeah, apparently, the Malaysians did.

So Netflix is not doing this with their movies.

They want everybody to get right to the, you know.

Yeah. So Ted Sarandos very specifically said, like,

we don't want people to watch our movies on in theaters.

We want them to watch it on Netflix.

So they're if they're opening things in theaters at all,

it's like it's a stunt or it's just to get attention or it's for an award

qualifying run, qualify, they don't they don't want people to pay

and go see movies conventionally in theaters.

In fact, if you think about it, Ted Sarandos didn't say this out loud.

But if you think about it, it benefits Netflix if movie theaters go out of business.

Like, yes, whereas a lot of these legacy entertainment companies,

hot, your Disney's, your Sony's,

they Warner Brothers Discovery, they need movie theaters.

AMC theaters is a vital link between them and their audience.

But if you're Apple, if you're net, especially if you're Netflix,

if you're Amazon, it benefits you if those movie theaters go away.

So the trend of people wanting to watch it on their phone,

wanting to watch it on their iPad, wanting to watch it on their flat panel,

which are now it's unbelievable.

Every time I buy a flat panel TV, I have like this

cognitive dissonance because I'm like, I paid two thousand dollars

for that previous TV and now I'm paying eight hundred dollars for one

that's 10 times better than twice as good as the last one.

I feel like an idiot now I got to throw away.

It went from throwing away or gifting a four thousand dollar TV to a two thousand to a thousand.

And now you replace it and you're like, yeah,

you can replace it for eight hundred with something much better.

And I'm just like, yeah, I just I hate the consumption trend of it.

But I love the fact that it's so cheap to have something epic now.

I don't even know if you could spend five thousand dollars on a flat panel TV now.

I think you need to get into those like foldable eight K.

Like they're still at CES every year.

You could go see the big new TVs.

But I think we've already reached the point where it's about as good as your

eyeballs can see, like we're we're at a point of clarity and brightness

where I don't know how much better it can even get.

I ask you a question.

You and I have been talking about the sequel nonsense

and how literally like the last couple of sequel things are just not

either not worth watching where the audience has burned out on it.

They've obviously gotten burned out on the Marvel series.

They did too many.

There's still interest.

It's just it doesn't have that.

Oh, I got to see this opening weekend in the theater.

We've trained people like, look, if you hang out Disney Plus,

all those Marvel movies are going to end up there.

Eventually, maybe you could wait to see three.

Blue Beetle, Flash, everything is coming up,

like not even covering their budgets now.

Yeah.

Transformers didn't do that well this year.

Indiana Jones was a disappointment.

That Mission Impossible movie was kind of a disappointment, which is crazy.

But then here we go.

So Mission Impossible.

And then let's put those all on the side.

And then we look at something like Barbie,

which is based on IP, but it's the first time they've ever done that.

So I consider it kind of newish, I guess.

And then if you think about that's all the summer.

Yeah, they had to sell people on Barbie.

And people know the doll, but it wasn't like a sequel to a big movie

that they were introducing this whole world.

So I do think that counts as something different than the franchise model

they've been going with.

So my question to you, we're watching Apple.

They're going full-auteur.

They got Killers of the Flower Moon.

And then what I'm really looking forward to, I know one of your favorite directors

is my favorite director, really, Scott.

I think he's my favorite director of all time.

I love their strategy here.

I think their strategy is fascinating.

You're doing Napoleon, right?

In November, we're going to get the two and a half hour theatrical Napoleon cut.

It is going to go on Apple TV Plus, probably December.

They haven't announced a release date yet, but probably December.

But they're getting the four hour director's cut.

They're going to get both versions.

So you will be able to watch the theatrical cut on Apple,

but Ridley Scott's also making a four hour director's cut

that will be exclusive to TV Plus.

That's genius.

So now you get people seeing it twice because people are going to want to go

to the theater to see it on the big screen, the theatrical cut.

But then you got to watch it again because you want to see the full four hour version.

Hmm.

Interestingly, yeah, if you remember, Ridley Scott did that director's cut

of Kingdom of Heaven, and people say it was amazing.

It is. It's much better.

I'm going to watch that.

You know, I never saw that one.

It kind of slipped by me.

Oh, man.

I'm going to watch it.

The director's cut is enough.

I have a movie theater at my ski house.

So this is the great thrill of my life to be a kid from Brooklyn who has a movie.

I got a proper movie theater.

It's pretty nice.

I like the Snyder cut.

I thought was really good, you know, for an imperfect film.

I like that too.

So this is great.

I mean, I love the fact that the director's cut is baked in.

We're baking in the director's cut.

That is a power move.

Yeah, the superpower move.

And I didn't get to see Oppenheimer in the theaters because it was literally

every time I went to buy to buy tickets to the 70 millimeter, it was sold out.

Now I can watch it on streaming, I guess.

But I'm kind of feel like an idiot watching it on streaming.

I mean, I feel like that's one of those things where

what we're seeing is it's harder for Hollywood to release, you know,

18 movies at a time that people want to go see, fill up all of these multiplexes.

So I think a smarter thing to do and it's already happening to some extent.

Some of these multiplexes use some of the screens for new stuff

and then use other screens for like, well, let's bring back Oppenheimer

in IMAX for a few weeks or like.

Yeah, that's what I want.

The Back to the Future trilogy or, you know, it's Halloween.

So we're going to show screen movies or a saw or whatever.

Like, well, I think that's what people want to is make it eventize it more.

So it's like, not necessarily only things that opened this weekend in theaters,

but it's like things I want to go see with my friends.

Who did Barbie?

Warner Bros.

So Zaslaw did Barbie was originally going to be Amy Schumer.

He and she dropped out.

Zaslaw didn't green light Barbie himself.

He inherited the project.

But that did the budget on that was 140.

It did one point four billion dollars.

So I mean, a lot of the credit there, a lot of the credit

there has to go to to Margot Robbie.

She was very behind this project and was was telling them like, here's how to do it.

I have a vision.

She's got her own production company, Lucky Chap, that produced it.

And like, so she was really the driving force of like going into Warner Brothers

like this could make a billion dollars.

You got to put muscle behind this.

And she was the one who had the vision.

I think speaking of the Wall Street.

Yeah, well done.

And then the budget for Oppenheimer is only a hundred million.

And it did a bill.

So yeah, I mean, a very thoughtful, historical, three hour biopic doing that

kind of money is like, we haven't seen stuff.

Yeah, I ask you a leading question, please.

If Oppenheimer and Barbie have shown this, that original IP done well with

our tours can win the day.

Why isn't Disney and other folks getting the memo on this?

Why have they not gotten the memo to do more original IP?

Instead of doing Toy Story 7, give us something new.

It's it's always, you know, are they going to take the right lesson from their

successes is always the question.

And so I think I think there there are a lot of wrong lessons I think you could take.

One is we got to like come up with viral memes of two movies opening the same weekend.

You already saw that.

They were trying to figure out what two movies can we open at the same time

against each other, right?

But that's a one time that's a one time marketing experience.

That's not going to happen over and over again.

Right.

And that's not something studios didn't create that the public created that you

can't you can't force that to happen.

It sort of has to happen organically.

The other thing is, of course, Mattel and Hasbro are now fast tracking

a hundred toy based movies each.

So we're going to get the the Barney, the dinosaur movie, the stretch

Armstrong movie, the Hot Wheels movie.

And again, I don't necessarily think that's going to work.

Either I agree with you.

The right lesson would be you got to find interesting projects from notable

filmmakers, put a lot of marketing muscle behind them and come up with

creative ways to make people feel like this is something I got to see

opening weekend with my friends.

This is a social experience that I want to be part of with this crowd.

Do you remember last year when that Minions movie came out?

Yes, everybody wore the suits.

Did that ever again was that.

Organic or nonorganic.

Yeah, that was the gentle Minions meme.

And just kids on TikTok were like, you know, what would be funny when

then you have the Megan dance, the Megan, which was actually like as far

I'm not into the horror genre, but I am into the A.I.

genre. Uh huh.

And I liked Megan.

I enjoyed it.

Oh, I like Megan, too.

Yeah. Yeah.

We were talking about that just before the show.

If you can come up with a dance like Wednesday, that Netflix show had that

viral dance as well and then became one of Netflix's biggest shows of all time.

My daughter's were doing it.

If you exact, exactly.

If you could come up with something like that where or there was that

that Peach's song from the Super Mario movie that all the kids went crazy for.

If you could come up with something like that that sticks in people's

heads and grabs their attention on X or Facebook or TikTok or Twitch

or wherever they're hanging out.

That's how you make a hit movie.

The idea that part eight or part 12 or it's based on this thing you remember,

we're sort of that era is done.

And now you've got to figure out how to eventize everything.

How do we make this the Taylor Swift era's tour of this genre?

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Tell me about what's going on with the strikes.

The writer strike ended.

They seem to have gotten some good concessions.

AI became a lot bigger of a story in that than I think people anticipated.

I think with good reason, because AI is great already in year zero here for

ideation, it's not going to replace a human.

That's obvious.

Yeah, it's great for ideation.

It's great for spitball and you would agree.

I mean, look, I don't I don't personally love it because I think so

many of its ideas are derivative, a little recycled, feel a little derivative

and the whole idea and brainstorming is you want to go as far outside the box.

Deep inside the box.

But listen, lots of people have lots of different ways of working and far be it

for me to tell another writer.

I do know a lot of writers who do enjoy brainstorming with AI and I don't want

to say it's bad or you shouldn't do it like more power to them.

But right.

So I think they really kind of kick the can down the road on the most complex

issues that the thing that we agreed on is AI can't write a script and we can't

hire a writer to adapt an idea that AI came up with.

Like ideas have to originate with human writers.

But the really difficult stuff like training, like, is it OK to train

an AI app on somebody's writing?

We kind of didn't.

We're like the WJ kind of reserved the right to object to that later.

Yes, didn't object to it yet.

So how would you know if, you know, a young person could come into Disney

Plus's app in let's just pick a time frame, you know, five years from now,

10 years from now, and I could open up the Disney Plus app and say,

I would like a story about Ashoka becoming friends with Captain Marvel.

And it's an alternative universe.

And then they go fight Thanos and Darth Vader, I don't think this ever

produces some little short video for you.

I mean, maybe a little short, purely visual, you know, maybe a little exploration

like a fan fiction like like a like a little showcase demo reel or something.

Sure. But you think consumers would be interested in that.

I'm curious. I think that's a I think that's a gimmick.

I don't I don't think to me the stuff that AI is like like code.

Like when you're talking about like, I need help writing this piece of code

and AI can help you figure it out.

It's obviously perfect for that.

Or I was reading something about broccolini.

They're using it to to come up with the next genetic strain of broccolini

that will be hardier, love it, grow faster and in more harsh climates.

Perfect. Exactly.

That's exactly the perfect use case for it.

Creative stuff.

I think it's just it's just not a good fit.

Creative stuff is what humans are very good at.

That's that's the word.

We should have AI do all the data entry stuff that we're bad at

or that it's hard for us to focus our minds on so that we can be freed up

to be creative and to think about things outside the box in a way that AI.

Yeah. So that's what I think is my point about this.

Choose your own adventure type experience.

So imagine you watched the Obi-Wan series, which we had mixed feelings on.

But generally, I really liked that that existed.

I kind of liked it. Yeah, I liked it. Yeah.

I enjoyed it.

So if you could say, though, hey, I would like to see a version where,

you know, the fight scene was a little more dynamic, right?

Or something.

Or I wanted to see a little bit more of this part of the story

and it filled in that part of the story or gave you some options.

That to you feels.

Does it feel offensive to you?

I don't. Do you feel if you do, do you feel disgusted by it in some way?

You seem to resist it as a humanist.

I'm I'm I'm holding you as a humanist.

I wouldn't say I'm disgusted by it, but I do think that.

Not no, not even a thing, but I do think that it's just that's

it's all it's really doing is is mashing things up, is mixing things up.

It's not it's not bringing anything new to the table.

So sure, if you tell stable diffusion,

I want to see an image of Ahsoka next to another, you know,

Optimus Prime and have them fight.

Sure, it can sort of roughly assemble that and you can see that.

But your imagination can do that, too.

And the the cleverness that a writer would add or that a director would add

or that a creative person would add.

They're the ones who are going to have because a computer doesn't.

It knows what Optimus Prime looks like because we've trained it.

We've shown it a hundred pictures of Optimus Prime and said this is Optimus Prime.

Then it goes, OK, I understand the term Optimus Prime.

It means this image, but it's it doesn't know what makes Optimus Prime cool.

Like, yeah, like why is a truck that turns into a big guy with guns cool?

Like, well, we know why that's cool because we're people

and we have life experience with trucks and guns and robots.

And that informs our decision that that's cool.

A computer doesn't understand that.

All it knows is this is what it looks like.

This is what it looks like when it transforms with the actors, then.

So the writers have settled that they seem to be somewhat content.

They have some sort of back ends here.

They're going to get some data.

The big thing is also they're going to get data.

Some kind of sharing on how a Netflix show did.

They're going to get some metrics, right?

They're they're going to get some limited metrics, but they're going to get

the people who make the the biggest Netflix shows are going to get a little

a little taste now.

They're going to get a little kickback based on the success.

Which they should, of course, in the best interest of Netflix, by the way,

like for Netflix, that made all these millionaires and billionaires here

in Silicon Valley to not get that people would do better work

and they'll invest more in their careers if all of a sudden a residual check

comes and like, oh, wow, I get thirty thousand dollars a year.

Yeah, because I'm telling you, I'm going to hire you for six

weeks and I'm going to give you this set amount.

You're going to do a good job because you're a professional and you want to earn

that amount. But if I'm like, I'm going to hire you for six weeks,

you're going to get this set amount.

And then you've got a shot at also getting a seventy five thousand dollar

check next year if your show is a big hit.

That's a big incentive.

That's a big incentive.

So yeah, I like a little taste.

Get a tasty thing.

I think that is going to going to motivate people and it allows more people

to turn TV writing from a hobby and interested to a real career.

And that's good.

You want you need the next generation of people who are going to create

Netflix shows ten years.

And you know what, you have intellectuals.

You have powerful people who then have the choice.

I can go work at Goldman Sachs.

I can work in Silicon Valley or I can work in Hollywood.

And you make Hollywood, you know, like you're going to be a monk.

You're going to be living on this like pittance and you have no chance

of building any kind of wealth for your family, your future, your retirement.

And people are just going to take the Goldman Sachs option.

Or they're going to take the.

You need the next generation of Bill Lawrence's who made scrubs.

And, you know, you need you need Shonda Rhimes and you need you need Taylor

Sheridan's like you need those people and you need to have a path

where we take the people who are getting started today and turn them into those

people one day.

And so that's really a lot of what we did.

But yeah, the hope was after the WGA resolved big.

Why is Optimus Prime cool?

Powerful abilities, moral integrity, lots of good things.

Pretty good. I mean, I don't think any.

Oh, powerful abilities.

Deep voice, memorable quotes, protective nature, rich backstory, diverse

adaptations, childhood nostalgia.

Great. And that's all the reason.

Oh, take the ideas that make Optimus Prime cool and create entirely

new character with different modality, with a different modality,

but similar traits that make them resonate like Optimus character name.

Luma, Loomarus, Dolores.

That's the worst name ever.

If you're a guardian of a cosmic library.

Sure, what kid doesn't want to play with a ethereal librarian?

Yeah.

It doesn't exactly.

Yeah, wow. Exactly.

When you go to school, you just ruined our childhoods.

But no, that's a great.

It's a cool example because because

they it doesn't cool this.

It's that you can't. How do you define it?

How do you teach a computer what it is?

You can't look at her rich backstory.

Once a mortal from a forgotten planet,

Luma and Arias thirst for knowledge, led her to the cosmic library.

Oh, but I mean, again, like it's just it just heroes journey.

Like every time you ask it for a story, it Joseph Campbell's you.

Because of course it does.

That's what it looked.

You know, that's what it learned from.

Yes. But that's not interesting every time.

What's interesting is how you modify it and tweak it and make it your own.

And you could just so we know, like you can beat a dead horse.

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Tell me about actors.

What's going on with the screen actors Guild, known as SAG.

I am a member of SAG or I was my amazing performance in the center of the world.

That's right.

At the film August.

So yeah, SAG actor Jason Calacanus wants to know how he's doing.

My SAG is well, there was hope that after the WGA strike resolve

that SAG might might wrap up quickly.

Now there's fire, there's momentum.

We want to get this finished up so we can get back to making stuff.

But that that's kind of come totally derailed this week.

It seems like it's mostly again about residuals and profit sharing.

So the actors apparently had suggested two percent of overall revenue

from these platforms go to actors.

The streamers said that works out to two point four billion over the course

of a three year contract or eight hundred million per year.

That was too much.

The streamers said that the streamers said that the studio said that was too much.

Two percent is too much.

They said two percent was too much.

So then the actors.

So then came back and said, OK, if revenue is the wrong basis for for profit sharing,

let's switch over to subscriber count so you could pay a levy based on

Netflix's total subscriber count or whatever your platform store subscriber

count. And at that point, Sarando said that was a bridge too far to bring up

this late in the negotiations.

And that's what caused apparently the amptp to exit the negotiation.

Walk away from the table.

This is so dumb.

Ted Sarando is making a stupid mistake.

He's going to be the most hated guy.

Everybody's going to go to Apple and Amazon because they're working with our

CEO. It's so the ampt Carol Lumberdini, the head of the ampt amptp,

she's working with the CEO gang of four, they're called.

That's NBC Universal's Donna Langley, Zazz Lab from Warner Brothers Discovery,

Sarando's from Netflix and Iger from Disney.

So they're the four.

This is so done by putting a number, a percentage number on it.

It frees them.

This frees them from having to keep negotiating and two percent is a perfect

place to do it in the NBA.

It's like fifty one percent go to the players or something.

It's crazy, right?

Literally half of revenue goes to the players.

You know what's happened in the NBA?

More people want to become NBA players.

NBA players spend a million dollars or two million dollars of their own money

to keep themselves healthy like LeBron James does.

And they really take their career seriously now because they know there's

a two hundred fifty million to three hundred fifty million dollar supermax

contract out here.

If they did this two percent, now you got all the actors saying, you know what?

I'm going to show up on set and take this seriously.

I'm not going to be like, I don't want to pick anybody, but like Johnny Depp,

like whatever causing chaos on set, they said, or, you know, whatever drinking

red wine all day, you know, like that stuff's going to go out the window.

Because Johnny Depp's going to be like, you know what?

And Netflix has had this specific problem.

Regé Jean Page became a huge star and season one of Bridgerton didn't want

to come back for season two.

Millie Bobby Brown.

Today we've got the headline and inside streaming is complaining

about having to come back for one more season of Stranger Things.

She wants to go make film.

She's a huge famous actor now.

But imagine if you were going to give her a joke of Stranger Things revenue.

Show me the doubt.

She'd be like, let's make 10 more seasons.

That's how you keep these actors on sitcoms for 10 years.

You know who did this?

Tony Stark, Iron Man.

And he knew.

Right. Exactly.

He knew because his career hit the rocks.

Iron Man, they marvel, didn't want to bank on him.

He had to take out his own insurance and bet on himself.

And what did he get in that last contract?

It was absurd.

It's hundreds and hundreds of millions of dollars for showing up for 10

minutes, like two days on set, whatever it was for him.

Famously, George Lucas, too, where nobody wanted to come in on him with these

deals. And so he was like, all right, I'll take I'll take almost nothing.

You don't have to pay me to direct the movie.

I'll just take the merch rights in the studio was like, are you crazy?

You're dumb.

Who's going to buy the toys of these free?

How about Todd Phillips?

I mean, there's one film I'm looking forward to.

It's the new Joker.

Joker, too, is going to be on a do cannot wait for that.

Joaquin Phoenix, I'll see anything he's in.

And Lady Gaga.

And I'll see anything Todd Phillips and you know what?

Lady Gaga crushes it.

Star is born. You know, she's she's amazing.

Who isn't curious to see Joker, too?

I think we're all curious to see what they got a billion dollars on

like a 75 million dollar budget or something crazy.

Golden Lion at Venice. That's crazy.

Well, here it is. Or Ters.

And so you got to give the Warner Brothers folks

because they also did the Batman Barbie.

They did the Batman. Yeah, they they understand.

Or Ters can take IP in a direction that the formulaic thing.

Now, listen, Marvel did do a great job on phase one, two and three or whatever.

But would it kill Marvel to do something outside the canon

with one of the characters or, you know, whatever,

and not have a phase five, six and seven?

Like, would you think that was a good idea if they said, hey,

we want to let somebody do something interesting with the Hulk?

I mean, I it's it's it's so hard to say

because I do feel like we're seeing the DC movies suffer right now

because they're not audiences have lost that continuity sense.

And so when Blue Beetle comes out, there's nothing making people feel like,

oh, I need to see this because it's part of this overall story.

I like it's just hanging out there on its own.

I actually thought Blue Beetle was pretty good, but I watched the first 20 minutes

I got bored. It's not enough to grab people's attention,

totally flying blind on its own.

Did they have any other DC characters in it?

Did anybody show up? Or is it just him alone?

No, it's I mean, there's shout outs and mentions,

but no, it's pretty much just Blue Beetle.

And James Gunn has said he's going to bring that kid Jolo Maraduenius.

Sir, I think I'm saying it right.

That the Cobra Kai kid who plays Blue Beetle,

he's going to come back in more DC movies as Jaime Reyes.

But I don't I don't think the movie, the movie doesn't really feel like everybody else's Gal Gadot.

She's gone.

They're saying Mamoa might come back and play Lobo or a different character,

but he's not Aquaman anymore.

Cavill's gone, Affleck's gone.

All of the Ezra Miller gone.

All those people are not going to be back.

The only exception is Peacemaker.

So Viola Davis is going to stay on as Amanda Waller.

John Cena is still Peacemaker.

That whole group is set.

But anyway, that has definitely hurt them.

So I don't think Marvel necessarily wants to throw the whole idea of continuity away.

But I do think that they're kind of they're kind of pushing the brakes a little bit on it.

Less focus on the constant releases that are all part of the one interconnected story,

because it's not paying off at this point.

It's hurting them more than helping, I think, in some ways.

People have just burned out.

Time for recommendations.

What do you got?

OK, what do you got for us?

Wow, I watched a lot of good stuff, right?

I really liked the fall of the House of Usher, that new Netflix Mike Flanagan show.

What is it? How is it?

So Mike Flanagan, he's the guy who did the haunting of Pill House

and haunting of Blind Manor and also Midnight Mass.

He does these like hard drama kind of series.

He also he's directed he directed that film, Dr.

Sleep and Oculus, a few other horror films.

So his new show is it's sort of based on the Edgar Allen post short story,

the fall of the House of Usher, but it's really a remix.

It's based on the entire collected works of Edgar Allen Poe.

So there's Pit in the Pendulum stuff, murders in the Rue Morgue.

The Raven gets shout out.

Like it's really this kind of like entire career of Edgar Allen Poe put into one story.

But really great cast.

It's kind of a mix of funny and spooky.

But it's also got this kind of succession

who's going to take over this pharmaceutical company storyline.

I really enjoyed it.

I think it's a it's a fun match.

I will watch that for sure.

Styles. And then I also liked there's this movie on Hulu.

It's a little silly.

It's a little bit of a one off, but it's quick.

It's called The Mill with Little Ralph Howry set in a near future.

This guy is a middle manager for a tech company called Mallard.

And then one day he wakes up and the company has imprisoned him in this cell

with this mill in the center of it.

And they're like, this is your new employee training.

Sixteen hours a day, you've got to work this mill.

Whoever rotates at the least in a day, whichever one of the employees gets killed.

And he's just a prisoner now in this like weird cell.

And it becomes like a thriller of like, how is he going to get out of there?

Nice. I have two for you.

I got two for you. That's on Hulu. That's on Hulu.

The diplomat.

Hmm. Yes. I enjoyed.

This is a huge among like the government, like politicians

and everyone in Washington was watching the diplomat.

I like Terry Russell a lot.

She's fantastic in this.

I will watch her do anything.

And, you know, it's like taught thriller type thing.

And she's amazing.

And I think it's a little bit timely

if you like geopolitics and that kind of stuff.

And then my other one I'm catching up on.

But this could be, I think, my favorite series in a long time, Mr. In Between.

Which stars a guy named Scott Ryan.

Yeah, it's from Australia.

It's from Australia.

And I think it's Hulu.

It's on Hulu.

It was an FX show when it was on TV.

So now it's on Hulu.

This show, Mr. In Between is kind of like Sopranos meets Breaking Bad kind of situation.

It's about a hitman from Down Under who's just unflappable.

And it reminds me of The Shield, a show I always liked.

And if actually that guy, who's the showrunner guy, creator of The Shield?

Oh, it's a, oh, yeah, he's Sean Ryan, because he's the guy who did The Night Agent.

Yeah.

So I just started The Night Agent.

That's a little unrealistic.

I'm like two or three episodes into that, but I still like it.

I love Sean Ryan.

I've played poker with him a couple of times.

That's a great example, because Sean Ryan is a guy who went to Netflix,

but he was like, I don't like your model.

I want to, I'm going to make shows for you,

but I want to do the network way of doing things.

And they said, OK, so he's had writer's rooms all along.

He kind of convinced them to do things the old fashioned way, even before the WGA.

Yeah.

So I love The Shield.

That was one of my favorite 10, top 10 TV shows of all time.

But this new one, The Night Agent, I love the actor in it.

He's pretty good.

And, but, you know, it's a little bit.

It's a guy, Noah Centino.

Is it him? Oh, no, this is a different guy.

This is Gabriel Basso. Never mind.

It's a interesting concept.

It's pretty good.

But I do want to give a shout out.

You know, I do like indie films.

And, you know, there was this film After Sun.

Oh, yeah, the 824 one.

Yeah, that was in 2022.

Again, this 824 is a really great orator.

I don't know why somebody doesn't buy 824.

That company seems to understand a great business model here.

It's it's been part of something.

No, but, but it's it's one of those things you

that the rumors are always around, like, who's going to who's going to buy 824?

Because they're also very savvy in terms of branding and marketing.

Like, they've got a lot of merch that they sell.

Like, they've kind of made themselves a little bit of a lifestyle brand

in addition to being a film studio.

So after Sun and Past Lives, both very deeply personal films.

These are dramas. They're slow.

They're meaningful.

If you can put your phone down, give yourself over to the films.

They're not for most people.

But for me, I like thoughtful, dramatic films.

And this one Past Lives is about a boy and a girl who are in school together

and then their lives separate and then their lives intertwine every 10 years or so.

And there's they're obviously like in love in some very deep way.

But, you know, it's kind of like missed connections,

you know, the Craigslist, missed connections kind of thing.

It's kind of like that.

And it's so well acted and directed and paced

that I just think it's a very special film.

And I understand this is the director's debut.

Both of these.

Amazingly, both of the films you've mentioned are directorial debuts

because after Sun, I believe, is Charlotte Wells' debut as a writer, director as well.

And then people really didn't get after Sun.

You know, this is like a coming of age kind of drama about a dad and a daughter.

I don't want to spoil it for you.

They're on vacation.

So it's sort of like, yeah, this this kind of travel log almost.

But I don't want to give it.

Yeah, we don't can't give it anyway.

But, you know, as a father of daughters,

like this trying to connect with your child and this meaningful adolescence.

And then the challenges of also being an adult and being a parent.

Very, very heartfelt films.

So if you were a considerate, sensitive person,

I think it's a great double feature for you to get you out of

you know, the, you know, exploding transformer,

things are moving so fast on the screen that it's just a giant fricking blur.

Yeah, after Sun is on after Sun is on Paramount Plus right now.

If you have the if you have the showtime, you have to have the showtime add on.

Or just, you know, like I say, you know, like if it's if it's a really good film,

just pay for it on whatever service.

It doesn't matter.

Pass lines is on VOD.

So you have to you have to pay to rent or buy it.

Just it's OK to pay to rent these things like 20 bucks or 30 bucks.

Or rent something.

It's well worth it, folks.

I know that we live in this disposable age,

but just think if you want to have workers make films, just just buy it.

It's fine.

You know, you know, it's it's it's a pittance.

You know, it's given inflation.

It's like movies become such a good deal.

You have any films that you actually like that are in?

Sure, more a non obvious film, I would say, or an obvious.

Well, I sure on Amazon Prime right now, it just came out last week.

There's one called The Burial with Jamie Foxx and Tommy Lee Jones.

I just watched this last night.

It's like a courtroom comedy drama based on a real case from the 1990s.

Tommy Lee Jones plays the owner of a few funeral parlors in southern Mississippi.

And he's it gets into a fight with a huge Canadian funeral corporation.

And he hires this guy, Willie Gary, who is a personal injury,

kind of a flashy TV personal injury lawyer to manage his case.

He's played by Jamie Foxx.

It's a lot of fun.

I mean, it's a little silly, but it has that throwback.

Like it feels like a 90s courtroom, courtroom comedy drama

that would just come out of the theaters for a few weeks.

Because he's old.

Tommy Lee Jones getting up there.

You know, it's really about like he and Jamie Foxx, very different guys,

but they kind of come together and become friends over the course of this child.

It's it's they're very charming together.

Seven years old. Wow.

Tommy Lee Jones. Seventy seven years old.

That one and Bill Kamp is the fugitive.

If you're a young person, you haven't seen the fugitive.

And that's that's as good as it gets on a thriller.

That's his big Oscar role right there.

Yeah, the fugitive.

Yeah, forget about Men in Black.

No country for all men in the fugitive is where you want to go, I think.

He's also in that amazing movie, Rolling Thunder from the from the 70s

with William Devane, one of that's why Tarantino named his company,

Rolling Thunder Pictures.

Oh, I didn't know that.

Yeah, I am.

I listened to the first book of criticism, Quentin Tarantino did.

You know, it's good and I like his podcast that he does.

So shout out to both of those.

Any other.

Devane plays like a traumatized Vietnam vet

and then he comes home and bikers attack his family.

And then he just goes in this really gruesome crusade of vengeance gets.

The other one, that is one of Tarantino's big things is the gruesome

revenge genre, which the 60s and 70s had this whole revenge genre.

Well, yeah, and Rolling Thunder was part of that whole, like like all those

movies about all the guys coming back from from Vietnam being just like super

messed up and, you know, having trouble reintegrating into society.

So it's from that era Cutter's Way and other great movies in that era.

Video is the video is archive podcast is I love it.

But he does very weird, weird movies.

But he did Manhunter, which is a with Roger ever.

He did Manhunter, which is a film I like.

He did a really weird thing of like, I had to like go really seek this out.

There's like a bunch of Planet of the Apes.

There was a TV show.

Yeah. And then it was terrible.

But there was like a couple of interesting moments about it.

And I didn't even know there was a thing.

What else did he do on the first season?

I know sometimes he does stuff on that podcast

and then they screen them at the new Beverly after.

Yeah, they do.

They go.

I've always been to go.

It's just really good because you can see how this stuff.

He did Straw Dogs, which is like the ultimate Sam Peckinpah revenge film.

And that's a really difficult film to talk about in today's era.

So I would start there if you're going to listen to his podcast,

like listen to the Straw Dog ones and watch Straw Dogs

with Dustin Hoffman, I think, in the lead role.

And it really is like, that's a challenging one.

I won't spoil anything for you, but that's a very challenging film

when the when it came out.

And he goes through the what I love about what he does in this

video archives podcast is he talks about the reaction to those films at that time.

And he did the film Star 80, which I remember when that came out, Bob Fosse did this.

And I actually watched the film Star 80 based and then listened to his criticism over.

And then he did two episodes on it last year in November.

And, you know, that was also like a really great walk down through town.

So like, I think if you can listen to Brett Easton Ellis or Roger Avery

and Quentin Tarantino and then hear their takes on films, that's how I got into tar

because Brett Easton Ellis didn't like tar and then everybody loved it.

And he went to see it again.

And he was like, you know what?

On second viewing, I actually really do like this film.

And I wasn't in the right headspace when I watched it the first time

and he changed his opinion on it.

I mean, that was really interesting.

Yeah, like that definitely happens.

Like that's happened to me several films.

Yeah. You have a film in mind that you change your thinking on?

Yeah, it happens a lot with with Paul Thomas Anderson,

where I'll see the movie the first time and I'm like, I don't really know.

Like the master is a great example.

It came to mind immediately, which I didn't get it.

I don't really know how I feel about that.

But by the second or third time, I was like, well, this is the greatest thing

I've ever seen. I love this.

It's my favorite Paul Thomas Anderson film, really, I think.

Every time I see there will be broader.

Yeah, they're all there also.

I just flip. Flip my watch.

We talked about this before.

All right, everybody.

Anything else you want to mention?

Yeah, one other one.

It's also on Showtime right now.

If you play for Paramount Plus, you got to pay for the Showtime add-on.

The last William Friedkin film just went up the Cain Mutiny Court martial.

It's it's it is purely courtroom.

I mean, it is just a filmed version of that play.

If you have not seen the movie The Cain Mutiny and you don't know the story at all.

I know it's a little weird at first, but really great performances.

One of the final screen performances for Southern. Wow.

Keeper Southern plays Quig, who's that's the Humphrey Bogart role from the original.

Hi, can I play it?

And then one of the final performances from the late great Lance Reddick.

He plays the the sort of general who's overseeing the hearing.

You know, obviously worth watching.

Very interesting. Jason Clark also really good in that one.

Lewis Pullman, who was great in Top Gun Mavericks in it.

Cain Mountain, Cain Mutiny Court Martial.

The Cain Mutiny was that World War II novel by Herman Woek.

Woek, I don't know how to pronounce it, W-O-U-K.

Yeah, have it, everybody.

Thank you, Lon.

And we'll see you all next time on This Week in Service. Bye bye.

Machine-generated transcript that may contain inaccuracies.