My First Million: Sara's List Hostile Takeover and The App that Made $1M In Ten Days

If you want a side hustle that'll make,

I don't know, 250K a year for you,

it's there for the taking.

I think that's a good song.

All you gotta do is all the work.

That's all.

That's all.

That's all.

That's all.

That's all.

That's all.

I feel like I can rule the world.

I know I could be what I want to.

I put my all in it like no days off on a road.

Let's travel never looking back.

What's going on?

We have a good episode.

We talk about an app that's going viral,

but this app roll is getting written about

in a bunch of publications.

We actually have the inside story

because we kind of saw what was happening

behind the scenes early, early on.

And so we talk about this guy named Nikita

who launched this app that has made a million dollars

in like two weeks or something crazy like that.

And we tell you the inside story behind it.

What else we got?

And he called his shot, which you know we love here.

We also talk about a ransom note that we got through email

and why this ransom note was one of the best emails

that we've ever got.

And me and Sam live brainstorm and live negotiate

how we're going to deal with this ransom note.

So if you want to see that, that's at the end of the episode.

We also talk about the Mailchimp CEO getting canceled

and a little debrief of Palmer Lucky.

So that's it.

Enjoy this episode.

All right, we live.

Sam, Paul, what's up?

Nothing, how's it going?

You know, just the usual woke up, decided,

okay, no small boy stuff today, got going.

Immediately started considering some small boy stuff.

And then I remembered there will be absolutely

none of that today.

What were the, what was it?

I woke up, I was like, I'm a little sore.

So I wake up with a complaint and wake it up

with a complaint on one of the greatest days I've ever had.

Wow, this is, this is not how I'm going to start my day.

All right, quick break to tell you about another podcast

that we're interested in right now.

HubSpot just launched a Shark Tank rewatch podcast

called Another Bite.

Every week, the hosts relive the latest and greatest pitches

from Shark Tank, from Squatty Potty,

to the Manchana Bench, to Ring Doorbell.

And they break down why these pitches were winners

or losers, and each company's go-to-market strategy,

branding, pricing, valuation, everything.

Basically all the things you want to know

about how to survive the tank

and scale your company on your own.

If you want to give it a listen,

you can find another bite on whatever podcast app

you listen to, like Apple or Spotify,

or whatever you're using right now.

All right, back to the show.

Wait, why was it one of your greatest days?

Just like, that's just like a general,

general attitude I have.

Do you want to start off by recapping Palm or Lucky?

Because after talking to him,

I feel like he's kind of the greatest guy

I've ever talked to.

Kind of the man?

Yeah.

Right, is that how you feel?

I thought he was awesome.

Let me just say a word that describes Palm or Lucky.

I would say like, independent minded.

I think I really respected that.

He is independently minded.

I felt like all his opinions were his own.

You know, people like,

they write that shit in their Twitter bio,

like opinions are mine, not my employer.

You know, his opinions are really his.

Also, when people write contrarian thinker,

and it's kind of like,

if you have to say that you're a contrarian thinker,

you're maybe not like the most contrarian thinker.

Do you know what I mean?

Right.

It's like the no offense.

I'm not racist, but.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

That's exactly what it is.

So I, anyway, yeah,

I thought that he was an independent thinker.

I also thought that he was incredibly enthusiastic,

which I liked.

Yeah.

Dead on the inside.

Like we have said no to a bunch of guests

just simply because, you know,

their intelligence is like cranked up to level 10.

Their success is cranked up to level 12,

but their like charisma and ability to convey

any sort of enthusiasm about themselves,

about the world, about their story is so low.

And so they make for a terrible podcast guest.

But for him, it felt not only like

did he have charisma to tell stories about the past.

He seemed really pumped about what he was doing

and what the future looked like and why it mattered.

And I just felt like this guy, you know,

just like springs out of bed every day.

Me too.

That's exactly how I felt.

I felt like he was incredibly enthusiastic about life.

And he, yes, that's a great way to explain it.

But dude, he was so fascinating.

He was one of those guys that I like

because I can't think of a great word to explain,

it's say other than like prolific,

but also almost like this.

I don't think this is over explaining it

or over grandizing it,

but like almost like a Renaissance man

where he would say comments like,

yeah, I bought this Marina

because there's gonna be new laws about,

I don't even understand like what he was explaining

about his Marina, but he said like something about his Marina

and like seaport access and how it's changing.

And then he made another comment about like.

He was like, he's like, I was gonna do this.

Well, I mean, seasteading is off the table for now.

And I was just like,

I don't even really know what seasteading is.

And you were just said it like,

well, we all know seasteading, now's not the time.

I was like, what are you talking about?

What the hell is seasteading?

Yeah, he also, he also like,

he'll make another comment.

He was like, yeah, I have this house we rented.

We had like a workshop and one weekend

I was building a jet engine for the water.

And we actually discovered that like,

we should make biodegradable food or what did he say?

We should make oil based foods.

It's kind of like building a diet Coke for every food.

And I was just like,

we could take this over lots of different paths,

but it's just so interesting to me

that you have that ability.

Yeah, it was like a bunch of like candy being waved at us.

He's just like, you know,

one of the largest samurai sword collections in the world.

And that just got me into thinking.

And it's like, wait, what?

He didn't say that, by the way,

but there's at least a 50% chance

he has one of the top 10 samurai sword collections

in the world.

And 100%, the guy owns swords.

Like, yeah, he definitely owns swords.

All right, so where do you want to go next?

You can drive.

All right, so check this out.

So a woman named Kristen sends an email.

I'm just going to read it to you.

We'll show it on the screen for those on YouTube

because it's kind of amazing looking.

It says, I'm holding saraslist.com for ransom.

Oh my gosh.

You open up the email.

And it's like, you know, like those like ransom notes

where they cut out from my magazine, like the letter.

So it's all like different sizes and colors and shit.

And it says, I am holding saraslist.com hostage.

And she goes, you don't know me, but I obviously know you.

I purchased saraslist.com.

I've turned it into a bomb ass website.

I am willing to sell it to you for $20,000.

This is a steal as I purchased it for $30,000.

I'm essentially giving you $10,000.

You're welcome.

If you'd ever like to see saraslist.com again,

and then she turned the font small or for the first time,

reply to this message.

I'm looking forward to hearing from you, Kristen.

And I was just like, this is amazing.

Who are you?

And who is she?

So she's, this is woman, Kristen Kent.

So she sends me her story after that.

She goes, I've been in tech for 12 years.

Regrettably, I chose companies off Kristen's list,

which was not as lucrative

as if I had chose companies off saraslist.

So for those who don't know,

saraslist is this concept that we should explain.

We did a full episode about it.

Basically, Sam's wife, Sarah, is a self-made millionaire

and did not do any of the heroic entrepreneurial things

you hear about in the media.

She just did one really good thing.

She just picked companies whose valuation was gonna go up

four or five X in a four year period.

So she worked at Facebook and not early at Facebook,

not like she was like employee four at Facebook.

Like she was like in the thousands of employees,

joined as like a middle manager type.

Not, again, I say this not as disparagement

because of how amazing it is.

Like she didn't do the things that you think you have to do

to become like a self-made millionaire.

She joined Airbnb again as employee, I don't know,

something hundred, what was it?

Maybe like three or 400?

No, a thousand.

Oh, a thousand, okay, great.

And Airbnb goes public at a valuation that's four or five X.

And so, if you're receiving a stock grant

for let's call it $60,000 a year,

on top of your, you get some base comp,

I'm just gonna use fake numbers.

Base compensation, let's say is 150

and then they give you 50K of stock a year.

For over four years, that's 200K of stock.

But now the stock price, four or five Xs,

you made a million dollars during that time period

and you were safe, you didn't have to like work 90 hour weeks.

You got to work at a fun growing company

that was gonna like win its category

and you didn't have to have this like amazing

lightning and a bottle genius idea in order to do it.

And so she had done that a few times.

And so we said, oh, this was actually intentional.

You and Sarah sat down.

And you guys broke up.

Yeah, we like made lists.

We like made lists.

Like what's like a 500 person company

that has good maternity leave.

You know, like these are all like the telltale signs

that it's like an interesting startup has.

You're in the top quartile of pay just for off salary.

You have benefits, good healthcare,

like all this stuff that a lot of startups

that are early don't have, but big companies do.

Yet they can still five or 10X.

So yeah, we made that list.

So we made that list and we put 12 companies on that list.

This was like a year, year and a half ago now.

12 companies on that list.

And I think we did the recap.

I don't remember the exact numbers,

but I think in the year, year and a half since then,

the average company values up like two and a half X

or something crazy like that.

And 11 out of the 12 companies raised

a like significant up round since then.

So we were like very high hit rate.

And if you got in,

whatever your stock value would have been at that time,

I think on average it's something like two and a half X.

Could be wrong.

I don't remember the math.

And so this lady sits aside, by the way,

and I'm looking at it, this is amazing.

Her email is, she DM'd me on Twitter.

And so whenever people DM me on Twitter,

I either ignore them or I just like click the heart emoji.

Like, thank you.

I recognize you, but I don't want to talk.

And that's what I did with her.

And I just replied, it said, I'm an idiot.

This is, you're actually, you're different.

This is a really good one.

So, okay.

So then here's what I want to do.

So you go to the website.

It's just sarahslows.com.

It says 12 starps that can make you a millionaire.

It's got a picture of Richie Rich, which is hilarious.

And then it goes, who is Sarah?

Who are we?

And why do we have any business sharing a list like this?

And then it tells the story about Sarah, about us,

whatever, selection criteria.

It uses our criteria, which is that it's a company

that's already valued over $250 million.

So it has a low risk profile,

meaning it's likely not going to go to zero,

a stable work environment, a high salary, great benefits,

but still can make you a millionaire

because the equity has potential to five to 10X.

And then it has our list, which was like Flexport

and Uniswap and Enderill and Replit and Airtable and Figma.

Like Figma got acquired for whatever 20 billion

or something like that, but more than that.

You know, after we mentioned it on this list,

when it was, that's like a 10X, I think,

from where we mentioned it.

So anyways, but then it says, find a friend a job.

So you go to the job board and it goes,

these are placeholder jobs.

You guys should consider syncing this up

to one of these websites, but those cost money,

which is why the last job post says, I'm not doing it.

And the tagline, so the tagline at the bottom says,

Sarah's list, get rich in five to 10 years,

over 50% guaranteed.

So hilarious.

So then I started thinking, okay.

So I said, let's brainstorm this live here on the podcast.

Should we do this deal?

And, okay, so your opinion is no, and give me why?

No, here's why.

It's just a website that would take me five minutes or no,

it would take me, it's a website that would take me

three hours to copy and a domain name.

So for that reason, it's not that valuable.

But what's more valuable is this lady, Kristen,

who's making it, her emails are beautiful,

her copy's beautiful, I just looked at her Twitter.

This woman, Kristen, is the exact type of people

that I like to be around.

She also works at Expa, at which Expa is basically

a company founded by the founder of Uber, Garrett,

I think it's a Garrett camp.

And they basically are a startup studio

that launches companies.

I don't actually know any of the companies

that they've launched, but I imagine a lot of them

are really successful, but she works there,

which is also a really good indicator

that she's on to something.

Do I think that we should buy this?

Absolutely not.

Do I think that I want this woman in my life

and would love to work with her in some capacity?

100%.

Agreed.

The real value here is not the domain,

it's not the website, it's Kristen Kent.

Okay, so here's my proposal to Kristen Kent.

Here's my counter offer, my public podcast

counter offer to you, Kristen.

I'll give you the $20,000, I'll give it to you.

In fact, I'll give you the $30,000

that you paid for this domain.

If you really paid that much for this domain,

I mean, that's kind of crazy, but it comes with this catch.

We're going to work together on this project.

You're going to do the work on the company side,

and I'm going to do the work on the promotional side,

the distribution side.

And here's what we're going to do with Sarah's List.

We're going to turn Sarah's List

into a half a million dollar a year passive income stream.

Passive-ish, I should say.

Passive for me, that's a little active for you.

By the way, Sean, when you say,

we got to remember this is Sarah's List

of which I am 50% of Sarah's List.

Sam is on the side right now.

Sam said no.

No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.

I got him on the record saying no a moment ago,

and he's not a part of the counteroffer.

Sarah herself will get a 1% royalty as we use her name.

Not a chance.

Here's what we got to do.

What percentage of the dividends would you give

or would you want Kristen to have?

Kristen deserves 50%.

She deserves 50%.

I agree.

The other 50% split, you and I.

Split.

310, you got it, sir.

So you can share the royalty with Sarah.

So here's what we're going to do.

Actually, I don't know if I even want to say this deal.

Now that we're having this intense negotiation,

I want to give out my great idea.

OK, I'll give out my great idea.

So here's the great idea.

Here's how we're going to make this work.

So normally, this is like monetized as a job board, right?

It would be a list of companies that we are curating,

saying these companies are great.

And let's say we might take it to 24, 25 companies

rather than the 12 we have today.

And normally, on a job board, you

pay $500 for job posting, so we would

need to go reach out to those companies, get them to post.

But hey, this is maybe premium.

It's a curated job board.

Maybe we could charge more, maybe $1,000, maybe $2,000

to be posting your jobs on here.

So if we've got people to do that,

let's say $2,000 a month, 24 companies, let's say half of them

actually do it, that's like $24K a month, not bad.

But I think we're going to be in this kind of constant sales

outreach period.

So let me put out a different idea.

We're going to take these companies

and we're going to host a demo day once a quarter.

What's going to happen at the demo day?

We're going to basically, each week,

we're going to feature one of these companies,

we're going to create an email list.

We're going to spin off our current email list,

and we're going to say, we're going to feature one

of these companies, we're going to do a deep dive,

but why this company is a good company to work for?

And interested people, high-quality people in tech

might want to read it.

Well, that needs to be an upsell.

That needs to be an upsell.

It's where it's like for $25,000,

like you get a deep dive.

As a minority owner, I'm not sure you have a say here.

So I can barely hear your voice.

It was so faint like your equity ownership of this.

If we were in the same room, do you

think I would have hit you already?

Or will that be coming in the next 10 minutes,

or would it have already have happened?

I think it would have happened.

So you know the way you promoted HustleCon,

where you used to write these kind of blog posts once a week?

I think you would feature the speaker of HustleCon,

and you would tell their story in this awesome infographic,

and then you would say, do you like stories like this?

You should come to HustleCon.

We're going to have 25 badass entrepreneurs,

including this person speaking there, and you should attend.

And you did that for 25 weeks, and you sold out like 500 tickets

to this thing.

So what we're going to do is we're

going to do that once a week cadence about these companies,

do a little deep dive.

That's an email.

And then it's going to get people

to attend the hiring day.

And hiring day is where the founder of those companies

are going to come, and they're going

to give a little five minute flash presentation on their company.

And it's going to be a cure.

And applicants apply to join.

And you've got to be good to join.

That's why we've got to keep the quality high on the company

side and the applicant side.

And then we're not charging for a job posting.

We take the recruiter fee, because when a recruiter places

a candidate at one of these companies,

they take $20,000 or $30,000 right away.

And so if we could place like 25 candidates in a year

at $20,000 a pop, you're talking half a million dollars

of revenue, which is basically all we have to do

is hire a writer.

We're going to hire a ghost writer who's just

going to write these company deep dives on the companies

that we select.

Have you heard of the Daily?

It was called the Daily Muse.

Now it's called the Muse, the Muse.com.

Have you heard of that company?

The Muse.com.

No, I don't think so.

Was that like a women's hiring thing?

Was that the?

Yeah, so it was.

It's called the Muse.com.

It's been around now for 10 years.

And the woman who started it, I've been actually DMing.

I've been wanting to come on here.

Yeah, she went to Duke, too.

Catherine, I think her name is?

Yeah.

And so she went to YC.

And so I actually originally thought

that this was a great idea, but they screwed it up

by raising a lot of money.

And I think they've raised 20, 30, 40, 50, 10s of millions.

I don't know the exact number.

But basically what they would do is

they would do these deep dives on companies

and charge the company some fairly big fee

to do a deep dive on the company.

And they somehow got tons of traffic.

Now they're still getting 8 million people a month

coming to their website or 6 million, something like that.

And they had tons of people coming to their website

from search, which is incredibly valuable.

And I thought that they were just chugging along,

but not doing that great because I hadn't heard about them.

I have a feeling they actually might be killing it

because they've raised a lot of money

and they actually are starting to buy other companies

at this point.

And they do these deep dives on companies.

And another guy who does this is Paci McCormick.

And I have no idea what he charges for this anymore.

But when the economy was crushing it,

I think he was charging $25,000 to $50,000 per deep dive.

I think it was a little more.

I remember he was making 100,000 a month

if I recall correctly off his deep dives.

And I think he might have been doing one or two a month.

Wow, that's pretty amazing.

And so I think you could do something like that here.

We do this with Milk Road, by the way.

We do a deep dive thing.

And it's like, I don't know, I forgot what class.

I think it's like something between 25 and 40k,

depending on the total promotion.

And who do you hire to do that?

I wrote the first few because we have,

one of our writers wrote it

and I kind of like changed it big time.

But now we are hiring a writer just to do the deep dives.

How much would you pay a writer to do that?

A couple of grand a month, like two grand a month.

No way, really?

No, not a month.

Because it's just per deep dive.

I'll pay $2,000 to write this one article.

The value is not in the writing.

The value is in that we have a huge list.

And that if we promote something to this huge list,

you're gonna get a bunch of traction,

or you're gonna get usage,

or you're gonna get candidates, or whatever it is.

So the writer is not bringing the value.

The writer just needs to deliver value.

But the list size is why you can charge that much.

Yeah, it's pretty fascinating.

I think this is a really interesting business.

I've always said, I mean,

I'm the one who even turned you on to job boards, aren't I?

So like, you know, you're welcome.

And email.

And I don't even, I wouldn't have even met Sarah.

Had you not met her.

Yeah.

So actually I should have 1%.

I have been introducing a list and Sarah.

So, and before me, you weren't even into.coms.

So like, you're welcome.

So I think Kudos to Kristen.

I think she's on to something.

Oh, I think we're on to something.

But she also seems pretty special.

But Kristen, if you want a side hustle

that'll make, I don't know, 250K a year for you,

it's there for the taking.

I think that's what you're selling.

All you gotta do is all the work.

That's all.

Yeah, but we'll promote it here.

This is an interesting thing.

I don't think this is an event venture-sized business,

which is, I guess, why Expa isn't going after it.

But it maybe could be.

It maybe could be.

There was a business back in the day

that went through YC called Developer Auction.

Do you remember this?

No, but that sounds a little weird.

That's not a great name.

It sounded weird in a great way.

So basically what they did was they were like.

No, dude, that's not in a good.

Auctioning humans.

Does it exactly have the best branding?

That's why it was great.

Guys, a head turner.

And when you're a small company,

you need to be a head turner.

And so these guys, basically, they realized,

they were like, wait, the power dynamic is off.

Why is it all about applying to jobs

when actually the developer is the most valuable.

Developer was gold in Silicon Valley.

And so they said, why don't we just curate

the top developers, so who are these 10x engineers,

and then let's just have them almost like a beauty pageant.

They walked down the stage,

and the companies are like raising their paddle.

I guess that's not what happened to the beauty pageant,

but like an auction,

where the companies were raising their paddle,

they're like, I'll give them 300,000.

I'll give them 400,000.

I'll do his laundry.

And then someone's like, you know, I'll suck his poop.

And it's like, you know,

basically like the companies were like

just falling over themselves, trying to get this talent.

And so they did one.

And it was amazing.

It was like, you know, 50 engineers or whatever.

And all the engineers got this huge pay jump

from these top companies.

They're like, oh, shit, that's awesome.

And then it built this little flywheel

where the next batch of really great developers

were like, yeah, you're gonna do all the work for me

to like get me my next job offers.

Awesome.

All I got to do was just go and explain how,

like, yeah, I helped scale Netflix's like video infrastructure

so that, you know, we got this latency and this blah, blah, blah.

So they would just go explain what they did,

and then the companies would bid.

And it was kind of a great idea, I thought.

They eventually, but the problem is it wasn't gonna scale up.

It was like too almost boutique.

And so in order to scale up,

they changed the model and then ended up pivoting

into something else altogether.

But like, if you just kept it boutique,

which again, you can't do this

if you raise a bunch of venture money

because then your expectations to go huge.

But if you're like, if you like making, you know,

a million dollars a year of like passive income,

you could do that with a boutique model like this

just by basically creating a demo day.

But instead of startups pitching investors,

you have companies pitching to top talent.

And so you could just, if you're good at curating, right?

If you're a good curator, right?

We did a good job curating on the company side.

Now you just gotta do a good job curating on the talent side.

You could actually create a pretty solid side hustle here.

Do you enjoy working with your wife?

No.

There are enjoyable things,

but there are also some very unenjoyable things.

But I tell you this on everything.

If we have to like assemble some like IKEA furniture,

I'm like, I hate doing projects with you.

And like, we're both, we're both too stubborn.

We both want our way.

And I'm like, why don't you just listen?

And she's like, why don't you just listen?

I'm like, cause I don't want to listen.

And she's like, well, neither do I.

So I've been, I'm coming out,

I'm going to do the ideation boot camp again.

And I was trying to convince Sarah to like quit her job

and like do this.

And it a happening.

We like did, we did a few test trials

and get her together.

Yeah, it didn't work out.

Like it just, like me talking to her,

like we're coworkers just, just doesn't work.

That's exactly the problem.

I talked to her like I would talk to somebody who's like,

you know, somebody on my team at my startup.

And she's just like, why are you speaking to me like this?

And I'm like, well, but I'm not in husband mode right now.

I'm in like startup mode.

It's modes.

It's modes.

And she's like, I would be like, look, you're not stupid,

but this is stupid.

And she'd be like, why are you talking to me like this?

I'm like, what do you mean?

I'm trying to encourage you.

And like, don't you want to like climb up

this organization's ladder?

Like, don't you want to be great at achieve great things?

She's like, just wants to punch me in the stomach

and knock the wind out of me.

I'm like, yeah, I don't know if this is going to work.

I wanted this to work,

but I don't think this can happen.

So I don't know how the couples do it,

but it wasn't working for us.

There are many great examples

like the founders of Eventbrite were,

that's a husband and wife couple,

the founders of Bebo back in the days,

Zochie and Michael Burst,

they're husband and wife couple.

They work together just great.

But I think it needs like that complimentary personalities.

And also like, I don't have the best bedside manner.

You know, it was a shocker.

Like, you know, pretty direct and pretty blunt about stuff.

And I, you know, I don't have that thing

that some people have going for them.

I think you have this where you could just be hella blunt

and it's like, it's a Sam being Sam.

Like, you know, he gets to play by his own rules

because that's just the way he is.

I have too much finesse in my game.

Like if you have, if you have no finesse,

people are like, he's got no finesse, it's fine.

Like he's just being blunt and don't take it seriously.

But if you have any, then it's like,

oh, he could have said that differently,

but he chose to say it the wrong way.

And you don't get the, you don't get that like, that,

you know, that pass to just like, you know,

say things, you know, the wrong way.

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Do you want to talk about Nikita?

Yeah, we kind of did,

but it seemed like you wanted to do it more justice.

I know, but we glossed it over, I think.

So at the end of a podcast a few days ago,

the Sean Story one, we talked about this guy, Nikita Beer,

who you and I are both friends with,

but we talked about it at the end of like an hour session.

And I realized this is actually really amazing

and deserves a significantly more time.

And so Nikita Beer, he's our good friend,

we're in a group text message with him,

and that's actually how I got to know him.

And everything I'm going to explain,

most everything is public information.

So this is like through articles and his Twitter feed.

So I'm not going to say anything that is confidential,

but basically he started an app called TBH.

So he went to school in Berkeley, California,

started an app called TBH,

which was basically some type of like viral high school app

that like you could answer questions about your peers,

something like that.

It wasn't incredibly significant of an app,

but it went viral and got millions of users very quickly

after him spending over two years

trying to create viral apps.

And so we kind of felt like he kind of honed in

on what works and more importantly, what doesn't work.

Facebook eventually buys the app for tens of millions of dollars.

Originally it was said to be like a hundred million,

I think in a recent article they're like,

it was actually like 40 million,

which is still a great outcome.

And that was about five years ago.

And so Nikita said something in the group message,

which he says,

I think it'd be an interesting idea to ask myself

or to figure out how can I build-

No, not even that.

You're making it too soft.

I remember exactly how he said it.

It was like, oh, so what are you doing?

What are you up to nowadays?

Oh, Sam, you sold the hustle.

What are you doing?

Sean, you sold people.

What are you doing?

Nikita, you're sitting at Facebook.

What are you doing?

And he's basically, he just said it straight up.

He goes, I'm just thinking about

how I can make $10 million in three months.

Like I, and we're like, what?

And he's like, yeah, I want to make an app

that generates like $10 million in 90 days.

And we talked about that.

Like that's just crazy.

That's outlandish.

We brought it up on this podcast,

but it was a really interesting,

we just thought of it as an interesting thought exercise.

Like, oh, that's actually a really-

Yeah, real backwards from that dream.

Okay, if that's, is that possible?

Yeah, it is possible.

I guess it is possible.

So then, all right, I'm a smart guy.

Let me find out, find out a way I would do it.

It is obviously very challenging.

And so I guess he must have had,

I don't actually don't know if this is true or not,

but I imagine when you sell a company to Facebook,

you have some type of non-compete.

Well, typically non-competes are anywhere

from two to five years.

The other day, a few months ago,

it was the end of the five year period since selling TBH.

And so I imagine that was the period where he was like,

great, I can do that.

And so he launches this app about three months ago.

And it was a really simple app where basically you-

But boy, it's the same app as TBH.

So what was TBH?

TBH was a anonymous polling app or compliments app.

So I don't know if you remember in high school,

they would always pass this thing around

at the end of the year, the superlatives test.

And it would be like, who is most likely

to become a famous in Hollywood?

Oh, this person in our school.

Who is most likely to end up with 10 kids or whatever?

You just come up with these like future looking things.

Who's got the best smile?

This person wins best smile.

And so TBH was that because it was playing on this thing

which is people are very interested in themselves

and the people around them.

And so you're like, all right,

if I will go through and I'll answer this quiz

and it was using like, so that sounds very simple.

Under the hood, it's gotta be pretty smart, right?

Cause it's got a surface in your contacts.

It's gotta surface the right four or five names

that you actually know.

Who do you actually know

so you could pick your friends?

And then it would send them a text message and saying,

hey Sam, somebody said that you have the best smile

in your school.

Download the app to find out who said it.

And you're like, 100% you're gonna go find out

who said I have the best smile

or who said I'm most likely to,

who said they have the biggest crush on me?

And so, you know, that taps into like something pretty deep

in a teenager.

And so that's what TBH was, got acquired.

And by the way, that same idea had been done many, many times

our buddy, Suley, who was the first episode of the podcast,

he had built that same superlatives idea

as a Facebook app.

When the Facebook app platform launched back in like 2007

or something like that.

And it also went viral.

It also went crazy viral.

Like this is just an idea that goes viral.

And you can switch, but he did it on the Facebook app platform.

Nikita did it on the mobile platform

where you would send SMS, you know, invites based off of this.

That was what he did then.

It got acquired.

It pretty much immediately got shut down.

There wasn't really much retention in it.

And so it was like, oh, that's a cool idea.

Gets people engaged, goes viral for a short period of time,

but there's no engagement.

All right, so there's no long-term retention.

Seems like so.

But it gave him this persona of like, I am a,

I'm a wonderkin.

Like I know how to make things go viral

because A, it is partially true.

And B, Nikita kind of has this aura about him

that who knows if it's on purpose or not on purpose

where he is mysterious and like somewhat silent

and only makes sarcastic jokes

and everything comes easy to him.

Like that's like his cool kid demeanor.

Yeah, he definitely tries to be a cool kid.

All right, so then it's a app you open up and says,

who do you have a crush on?

Who's got the best smile?

Who's most likely to be whatever?

Who would you trust to bail you out of jail?

And you answer and they're all supposed to be, you know,

sort of like more positive-ish questions or not.

It's not like mean.

It's not supposed to be bullying.

And again, starts to go viral.

And so we sat there in this group chat as it was happening.

So describe kind of how it played out from your perspective.

So basically he launches it and he says things like,

all right, now we're adding 1,000 people an hour.

And I kind of brushed that off because like they could,

maybe these are just bots.

Like this isn't actually serious.

Well, there's one little difference.

He launches it and we're like, cool, man,

how do we download the app?

He's like, it's Geofence to these three high schools

in Georgia.

And we're like, what?

And he's like, and we're like, hey,

and then he would post like a, you know,

he'd be like, post this graph, it's going viral,

but it's got like 200 people.

We're like, only 200.

He's like, there's only like 2,000 people in the school.

This is going to take a whole school like right away.

But he uses like academic language.

Like it has a K factor of blank,

but we're seeing that user retention stagnates at this thing.

The churn happens at 3%.

Like it was incredibly-

The density coefficient is blah, blah, blah.

We're like, whoa, okay, that's cool.

And then, and then he goes, then he's post this chart

and we're like, oh, sick.

Like, I don't, like, how come I don't see it?

When I go to my app store chart, like, you know,

social free apps, he's like,

we put it in the games category under puzzles.

He's like, that way we're going to like stay away

from competition until we flip the switch.

And we're like, whoa, like, damn, this guy is like,

this is like, if you want to get him a thrones

and they're talking about like, you know,

how to invade King's Landing,

it's like these guys standing at this giant table,

moving these chess pieces around,

like talking about conquering, that's him.

But the chess pieces are like high schools

and he's moving them up.

Yeah, it was like, it's like James Bond,

villain of high school, you know, quizzes,

if that's such a thing.

Okay, there's one key twist to the whole thing.

It's TPH again, but he's like, this time,

we're not trying to be the next Snapchat.

We don't care about their retention.

We're just going to put an app purchase that says,

pay to see who voted for you.

And he's like, they're going to pay.

And we're like, well, I get, well, will they pay?

They're going to pay.

And it's like, the thing is a fricking 699 weekly subscription.

So this is basically $28 a month.

This is double the price of Netflix

to see who voted for you.

And he's like, yep.

So if we're converting, you know, whatever,

4% of people, and we take over this state,

Georgia, Georgia has this many high schools,

each high school has this many students.

Yeah, 1.8 million dollars a month.

Okay, good, yeah, let's go.

That's basically like my re-enactment

of how they're thinking about this.

And at this, with TPH, he had raised a little bit of money.

He had raised money from Founders Front,

Fund and Greylock.

And like the, when you do that, it says, you know,

I've got to build the next Snapchat.

This way, with this new company,

he just basically says, dude, I'm self-funded.

I've got four engineers living in my LA house right now.

We're just trying to like make it big, make it fast.

And what do they say on Salt Park?

Like scale up, no, start up, get big, cash out, bro down.

You know, like that's exactly what he's trying to do.

He's trying to just get in, get the bag,

get out and just maybe rip your feet.

That's a good tattoo idea for you.

Yeah, not.

And so anyway, about 10 days after it launches,

I'm just making these numbers up,

but it's around a week, maybe two weeks.

He starts saying like, oh man,

people are starting to spread these rumors

that this app is being used for human trafficking.

He's like, yeah, it's annoying as hell.

Like we're getting a bunch of deletions.

Like, oh, it's gonna die.

And we were like, what?

The thing that like, you called your shot.

You're like, I'm gonna build an app

that goes viral.

It's gonna make $10 million in like 90 days.

And that's a ludicrous thing to say.

You spend like two years plotting.

He went through a bunch of different ideas

to think about what it could be.

Decides, you know what, it's TBH with a paywall.

Launch it, like spends, you know,

has these like seven engineers living in his living room.

You know, the place smells like, you know,

ramen and old spice.

And he's like, all right, we build the app

after a few months.

We launched this thing in these pockets of Georgia.

It goes viral.

And then this, you know, this hoax starts saying,

this is for, I don't even know,

with the sex trafficking, human sex trafficking,

human case.

Which I didn't even understand,

but I didn't even understand.

But he basically says like-

I shouldn't even say those words.

YouTube's gonna like,

de-prioritize this algorithm.

Like, we're out of the algorithm now.

Like, because I said that out loud.

And he says that, he's like, well,

it's actually, it's just like a couple of reviews.

But I have a feeling that these couple of reviews

are gonna like spread.

Someone already made a video on TikTok.

This is just how things work.

And so I'm like, it's whatever.

Like, I don't understand that entirely.

That sounds like you're just being like neurotic,

but sounds good.

So he changes the name.

Yeah, so App Store's getting deleted.

Oh, no, it gets taken down in the App Store.

Apple takes down or something like that.

He's like, oh, we're gonna petition,

but blah, blah, we're gonna re-upload.

And he sends us, hey guys, like new brand re-launches again

in like, you know, Alabama this time.

He's like, okay, we're going south.

And they attack Alabama

with their four high school launch strategy.

They do, they have this like thing set to a T.

And by the way, like he had,

he had wrote a memo inside Facebook once

about how TBH was launching high schools effectively.

He's like, we created basically,

his theory is basically for a social app,

the most valuable thing you can have

is a reliable way to test your app.

So like, can you get this into a small network

like a high school where most people know each other

or know of each other of a thousand people quickly?

Because if you could do that,

you could test it in one high school, see what the data says.

And then you could tweak the app,

launch it in another high school, do it again.

And he's like, that reliable like Petri dish to test in

is the most valuable thing.

So they had come up with a strategy,

which was a, but this memo got leaked

when he was at Facebook,

which was like, they would create Instagram accounts,

like, you know, Archipelago High, you know,

and it's like, they take the high school name

and they take the brand name of the thing

and they would make the account private

and they would go follow every kid who had like,

you know, class of whatever 2022 in that high school,

they would follow all of them.

So then the kid would say, who followed me?

It has my high school name in it.

They click it, it's private.

To find, to see the profile, you got to follow back.

So they would, they would request to follow.

So a whole bunch of people requested to follow.

He's like, but we would not accept anyone.

And it's like, this is like that, you know,

the dentist system on all of a sudden he's like, you know,

first we demonstrate value, then we take it away.

And he's like, then at 4pm on the day before launch,

when everybody gets out of school, you know,

we have a guy in a truck watching people leave the school

as soon as they do, we hit accept requests.

We accept everybody's request.

Everybody gets a notification at the same time.

And then they go to it.

The bio basically says download the app, see who likes you.

You download the app.

And then he's like, we would instantly go viral

in a high school.

So he had this like launch strategy,

which was I thought pretty, pretty great, pretty tactical.

So he's doing that again and it starts to work.

And we're like, wow, dude, you did it again.

Like the first one wasn't a fluke, you did it again.

So he's like, this is the craziest AB test in the world.

And it comes back for act three.

And this time it's called gas.

And so by this point in the group chat,

Sam, here comes the gas logo.

What's your thoughts?

By the way, this whole, so he'd been working on this

for many months, maybe more than a year, I don't know.

But this whole thing that we're describing

takes place over two to three weeks.

And it gets to the point where he starts making up phrases.

Like we are acquiring new users at this rate per hour.

You know, a lot of times we talk about saying like

ARR annual recurring revenue and what a lot of companies

will do is they'll take like their monthly run rate

and multiply that by 12 to say this is what they're doing.

He was basically doing that at a per hour basis.

So he's like, oh, we're acquiring 1,000 users per hour,

which means our rate of like new users

is like 365 million, whatever.

And he was like,

he's like, if you look dawn day over day, it's like,

like, dude, you're just measuring the period

of like the sunrise day over day.

What your numbers are, that's insane.

And so gas starts like taking off,

similar to the original one, but this time even more.

And in a matter of like seven days,

I believe he starts tweeting out the results

and letting us know.

And basically within like seven days,

give or take five days, I don't know exactly.

It was doing a million daily,

it had a million daily users,

was adding 30,000 new users an hour.

Users were answering 3.2 million polls per hour.

In a brown like 10 days,

I believe he's hit a million dollars in sales

and are also around 10 days in.

It was number one in the app store.

And he had been telling us,

it's gonna be number one in the next handful of days.

It's gonna be number one.

And he totally called it.

And we're talking number one, like above TikTok,

above Instagram, above Facebook.

Yeah, totally.

This is all true.

And he said, he tweets out, he goes,

ladies and gentlemen, after a five year hiatus,

I'm no longer a one hit wonder.

Introducing gas, the number one app in the app store.

And this is when it turns to the point

where it's incredibly hard for us to compliment him

and to root for him.

Because clearly this guy has a chip on his shoulder.

Clearly for the last five years,

he was mad that he sold too soon

or didn't become like huge or didn't become wealthier

or didn't become whatever his target was.

But he fell short, it felt like.

And now he's proving that he's the man

because here's what starts happening.

And he gets hilariously cocky about it,

which I love.

I love.

I love.

It makes me like him even more, but I love.

And so like, here's an example,

a really popular VC, his name's Josh Elman, tweets out,

momentum growth is a powerful feeling.

And they could also go away really quickly.

I have been surprised how many things

with seemingly unstoppable momentum

have slow crawled this past year.

Zooming out, growth without deep duration adoption

and the habits doesn't count.

And Nikita replies, just at me.

And so basically, he just starts going around.

Anyone online on Twitter who's a big shot,

who starts talking about high growth stuff,

Nikita just pops out and said, what are you talking about me?

And it's hilarious.

It is so funny.

And so around this time though,

the rumors start happening again about human trafficking.

And he starts tweeting and sharing the craziest stuff.

And this gets so big that Ashton Kutcher

is retweeting who Ashton Kutcher,

I didn't entirely know this,

but like his whole philanthropy thing is human trafficking.

And so these rumors of human trafficking

start happening again.

And Ashton Kutcher retweets Nikita and says something like,

this is a screenshot, it's Ashton Kutcher DMing him.

And he's just screenshotting us these big shot people

that are just DMing him wink face.

Instead of even saying hi, they're just like,

is this how this guy slides into DMs?

That's interesting, that wasn't Ashton Kutcher.

But Ashton also retweeted it.

I'd love to meet you.

I'd love to help this thing as a hoax.

Cause basically what Nikita is saying is he's like,

the thing is taking off like you wouldn't believe

that it's going viral, the K-factor is two.

And when the K-factor is two,

what that means is for every person who joins virally,

they invite two more, right?

So it's like, you know, you thought COVID spread fast,

watch how fast the gas app is gonna spread.

It's got a incredibly high viral coefficient.

That just basically means for free,

it's gonna take over whatever demographic it is

until that coefficient starts to go down.

Because either it's saturated or it's a new market

where it's less viral.

And so Ashton Kutcher is like,

I'll help you try to fight these hoax rumors.

Cause on TikTok, on Snapchat,

you just see story after story of somebody saying,

guys, delete this gas app, it's us as hell.

I downloaded it and a white van started following me

around my neighborhood.

And people are like, oh my God, oh my God,

share, just keep our school safe.

And it's like girls, like girls do not download gas app.

Like you ever seen the show, you on Netflix, say no more.

And it's like, the people are just spreading this thing.

And so it's like, what the hell?

Like, where is this coming from?

And he doesn't know.

And he's like, it's gotta be a competitor.

And we're like, okay, what?

Like, what kind of compare?

I mean, you've just launched like two weeks ago.

How are they doing this coordinated,

like social like psyops attack on you and your user base.

And he's like, then he's like,

we've located the source of the hoax

or it originated in China.

Well, here's what he says.

Here's what he says.

This is the most official tweet ever.

It's so funny.

He goes, after an investigation,

our team found several indications

that the gas app human trafficking hoax

was planted by an entity or person originating in China.

Our data shows users connecting from China

when the app first began growing

and the first fake review were posted that same day.

And so basically he's accusing something

or someone in China who starts spreading.

He's accusing just the country.

Yeah.

And so this is just take it off from,

I wanna make $10 million.

I wanna get in and get out to China

is trying to actively bring me down.

He just tweeted out, dude,

I am calling for a total and complete ban

of Chinese goods entering the United States.

No, I'm just joking.

But I told him, I was like, dude,

you need to go lean in way more

because what he's doing in his PR push,

he's like the hoax,

false hoax is being spread

about gas app human trafficking, blah, blah, blah.

And I'm like, bro, you need to go full Trump.

You need to be like China.

The China virus is trying to take down

this American success gas app.

TikTok is not only stealing your data,

they're trying to take us down

because we are the number one app for teens.

China is doing this.

This is anti-China.

I was like, you should be leaning in way more to this.

I was like, I don't know if this is true, not true,

but like this is your only hope is to get this.

Like you should stop saying your app's name

with the words, you know, human trafficking.

And you should start saying, you know,

why is China trying to, you know,

spread fake news about this?

That is my official recommendation to you.

And it's totally working.

And so this entire story that we've just spent 30 minutes on,

this entire story, we're talking like 20 days.

And this is the rollercoaster that we bit in.

And he would say to you-

He's on Fox News yesterday?

Did you see that?

Yes, that's my point.

He says these things in this group chat.

And when it's on your phone,

when it's just on this small thing,

you think this is just limited to us six guys in this thing.

This is just no big deal.

But then you turn on Fox Business News

and our Fox News business and he's on there.

You go to Wall Street Journal and he's on there.

You go to Business Insider.

Bloomberg, all these places and it's real.

I go to TikTok and I open up

and there's a video about this app.

And basically, as much as I don't like saying this

because I like Nikita, but he is so smug.

He has 100% called his shot and he hit it.

He nailed it.

This is one of the most epic stories

that I've seen behind the scenes in real time

in a very long time.

It's been quite amazing to watch this entire thing

play out in just 20 days.

Yeah, he's smug as hell.

But the same reason I find Conor McGregor

very entertaining in the UFC, right?

This cocky guy who tries to call his shots

and then tries to pull it off.

I'm thoroughly entertained and I'm here for the entertainment

and good for him, made it happen.

This matters to him.

He got really pumped about this and he made it happen.

And it's like, I feel like Bane,

when he sees other people,

I felt like Nikita for like four years

would see other people try to build social apps

and he would just like shit on them

or people building apps and be like,

if your app doesn't let you flirt with somebody,

it's never gonna work.

Or he'd be like,

unless you built the number one app in the app store,

don't talk to me type of attitude.

And I find it pretty awesome that like Bane,

when he's like, oh, whatever the line is,

when he's like, you trained in the dark,

I was born in the dark.

Like that's him with these like teen viral apps.

He's like, oh, you're trying to make a social app?

I was born to make social apps.

The fact that he just relaunched the same app

is hilarious to me in so many ways.

He probably had just like a countdown timer

to like when the non-compete ends.

No, it wasn't even that.

Cause I talked to him in between

and he was considering all these like other ideas

we're considering this one real estate idea

is considering this other idea.

And then it was just like, like, you know,

it's sort of like Harry Potter.

The one chooses the wizard.

It's like, it's just pulling me back in.

It's just what I think about, I gotta go do this app again.

Like, are you fuckers really gonna let me

just do this again?

And he did it again.

Yeah, this is pretty amazing.

It also goes to show that it shows a few things.

It kind of breaks a lot of narratives,

which I actually like, which is a,

like you don't really need like a mission,

you know, all the time.

Like, and I think that like with us,

you don't need a noble mission.

The mission can be $10 million to three months.

That's a great mission.

I do actually think that maybe there is something

where like, oh, it makes teens feel good or whatever.

Maybe that's like there, but like,

I think what's there really above all else

is get big fast because that's exciting.

And just like play the puzzle.

It's just a puzzle.

And I think that that's like kind of the dominating factor

behind what's driving him.

And I think that that's interesting.

The funny thing, he goes on Fox News

and he's like doing the interview,

you know, they have the person talking

and then the background, they're showing screenshots

of the app.

And so he's like, well, the thing we wanted to do

was bring positivity to teens.

You know, teens feel really bad from whatever like,

you know, Instagram.

We want positivity.

We wanted an app where there's, you know,

it's anonymous, but there's no bullying.

There's no like sort of negativity.

And the screenshot is a poll question that says,

want to steal them from their boyfriend?

It's like, steal from the boyfriend.

He's like, you know, we just want to,

he's like, I get messages every day from teens saying,

you know, I was gonna do something bad to myself,

but this app came out and now, you know,

I'm running around in a field full of flowers

and it's like, it was just hilarious.

The whole thing is like straight Silicon Valley HBO show.

Like it's so funny to me.

It is so funny and it's so exciting.

Another thing is that basically when you're building

these apps, like the really good folks are just like

maniacal about these little small numbers

and just tweaking them and just,

just being obsessed with these little small things

when most people are worrying about design

or branding or the logo or just these things

that don't matter is like, dude, all I care about

is making this K factor like more than one.

And so, and when it's not, when it's 0.99,

it's we're screwed.

We got to totally redo this.

And I just thought that it's a really interesting story.

And this has been like a roller coaster

and one of the coolest things that's happened in a long time.

I just love following along this.

Yeah, props to him.

Great, great job.

Thank you for the, thank you for the entertainment.

I want to do two little things.

One, I just want to have a moment of silence

for the MailChimp CEO.

What happened?

He got, wait, the MailChimp CEO or the founder, Ben?

Ben.

So MailChimp was this like darling.

They were bootstrapped.

I think they were bootstrapped forever.

Then they sold to Intuit for many billions of dollars.

Like eight.

And they did it for like 20 years

and they did it out of like Atlanta.

So they were like this indie success story, right?

Like they're like, you know, like there's like hundreds of indie hackers

right now on IndieHackers.com that like...

By the way, you said Atlanta in a very funny way.

It's kind of like, I usually say Detroit.

You just said Atlanta.

You put a hard A-T on that.

How do you say it?

Atlanta, I like that.

Atlanta.

Oh, okay, well.

You know, it's like Detroit, Detroit, Atlanta, but go ahead.

So this guy, he had to step down.

So did you see what he did or what happened?

So he sent a, so he sent like an email or something like that.

Where is it?

Let me pull up.

Oh, I see it.

Yeah, he basically just said, he basically said,

Chestnut said he identified a dangerous turn in his workforce.

New hires introducing themselves

using their preferred pronouns.

This is completely unnecessary for a woman

who is clearly a woman to tell us her pronouns as she, her

and a man who is clearly a man to tell us that his pronouns are he, him.

He wrote in an email to a small group of employees

and said, Chestnut said he understood the practice was ruining kindness

but added that in the long run, this approach just more harm than good,

forcing people to behave in certain ways that are the opposite of inclusion.

Okay, sounds not horrible, but that's a dangerous, dangerous path to go down.

By the way, my recommendation to all of us is to just not comment on this.

I think we should just read what happened.

And then a moment of silence for this guy for getting fired,

basically fired, oh, I stepped down coincidentally right after this.

But, you know, for, you know, whether you agree with him or disagree with him,

I kind of feel like having to step down is a pretty like severe pedal.

Having to step down from your own company is a pretty severe penalty

for like having a point of view on this stuff.

But like, maybe it's a lot more severe than I think.

I don't know, like.

Well, what's great.

I think that when you look at when you think about these things,

words aren't just words.

You have to look at intentions.

Right. Here's the part where I think he got dicey form.

So he goes in the email.

He goes, first, there is a tiny number of peeps at Mailchimp.

Strange to use peeps.

Maybe that's like what they call themselves.

Is that like a chip word?

Yeah. So there's a very tiny number of peeps at Mailchimp

who consider themselves transgender, forcing either with orders or through guilt

the approximately 1300 other peeps to adopt a new communication paradigm

that humanity has never had to use in our 300,000 years of existence

and under 150,000 years of spoken language

in order to make things slightly more comfortable

for an extremely small group of peeps is completely illogical.

And he says that if you're forced to do something illogical,

eventually you will believe and do anything, even if it's vicious.

So that's like a little like.

He says, now, nowadays, everything is incredibly politicized.

I'm finding that peeps are no longer motivated by meaningful work.

They're motivated to make political statements.

They're using company time and company resources to win a game against their

opponents in a game that is raging in their minds and on social media.

Understanding and respecting that people can have different different views

as part of being American, part of being mature adults.

Peeps of all different political leanings are free to vote the way they want,

blah, blah, blah, but it's not for the workplace.

So that's what he said.

I'll leave it to anybody to agree or disagree.

My personal opinion is I understand what he's trying to say.

I think he said it in a pretty stupid way, like it's a little too aggressive.

And using the word peeps when you're talking about these things is also like

if I I agree with the sentiment here, but I think that if I

if it were a hot button issue, I wouldn't use slang.

Yeah, you can't be like to the homies that had to use the

I guess internally, maybe they must just always you that use that.

Like, you know, like Facebook had like whatever, like now has like metamates.

Dude, it's kind of like a metamate to use a pronoun is unmetamate.

There's two words that I hate using in a serious like argument

or discussion, like if I'm talking to Sarah, my wife, or like someone else about like,

look, like, you know, they said this and they're tweets.

Like if it's ever like the word tweets in an argument, like,

well, I tweeted the tweet.

Did you see their tweets?

You know what I mean?

Like, I don't well, he tweeted it.

Like, I don't want to use that word or text.

That was text.

Yeah, like when I'm having a serious conversation,

I want to talk about something and I got to use while he tweeted that.

You see his tweets.

Yeah, because it's too much like I tuned it at him.

And it's like, yeah, it doesn't sound.

I'm not a fan, but yeah.

I mean, I'm going to add peeps to that list.

So yeah, all right, Pete, Ben, I like Ben.

I don't know him.

I'm acting like I do.

I've called the email to him a ton of times and he's never replied to me.

But so we kind of know each other.

So and it's like, so yeah.

I guess he's just one of those peeps.

Yeah, doesn't reply to my emails.

You know what happens to those peeps?

Yeah, he's he's him in a six billion can go off and be unhappy by themselves.

But, you know, whatever. I like Ben Chessma Chessna.

I love MailChimp.

I think it's a great company.

Yeah, me too.

I think MailChimp is a really cool success story.

Earlier in the episode, we said you would describe Palmer Lucky in one word.

And I think, you know, we both said different things.

If I had to describe the this last 60 minute episode in one word, I would say

exhausting. This was an exhausting.

Like, I feel like I just went on like a journey with you and I need to go

rest my eyes. Is that how you feel?

No, I'm just getting stronger by the minute.

Dude, that that I believe that's called anti fragile.

You and I are not the same.

I'm about to eat.

Yeah. OK, that's it.

We're out of here.

I feel like I can rule the world.

I know I could be what I want to put my all in it like days on

the road. Let's travel. Never looking back.

Machine-generated transcript that may contain inaccuracies.