Leading: Gary Lineker: Politics, football and the BBC

Welcome to another episode with the Restless Politics Leading with me, Alistair Campbell.

And with me, Rory Stewart.

And also in the background with an amazing dog called Philbert.

And have you any idea, Rory, why the dog is called Philbert?

Absolutely no idea why a dog.

Does Philbert say anything to you in your little...

Literally zero.

I've never heard the name Philbert before.

Philbert Street is the ground where a very well-known football team called Leicester

City used to play.

Oh my goodness.

Rory, have you heard of Leicester City?

And here coming in is the man from Leicester City.

He did play for Leicester City.

Rory has managed through canine connection to give away our guest early on.

Our guest is a former footballer.

And Rory, what were the clubs that I told you he played for?

So actually he didn't tell me he played for them.

But he did play, I believe, for Everton, for Tottenham, for Barcelona and astonishingly

for Nagoya, not a club that I'd head off to.

You must have done some research to know that one.

So he was then having been a footballer for these clubs and famously for England as a

Golden Boot winner.

Do you know what a Golden Boot does?

How you get a Golden Boot, Rory?

No, how do you get a Golden Boot?

You don't know how you get a Golden Boot.

A Golden Boot is awarded to the player who scores the most goals in a World Cup.

So he scored the most goals in the World Cup in 1986.

Correct.

You were at the World Cup, the Risa World Cup of guitar, who was with the man himself

for a round of interview, whose name we still haven't revealed yet.

Who won the Golden Boot this time?

I don't know.

Who did win the Golden Boot this time?

That would be killing a mape.

The reason why some of our listeners might have guessed who our interview is because

his voice is quite well known and probably even more well known since he stopped being

a footballer because he then became a very well known TV presenter.

Hello.

How about that?

That was a long intro.

We're actually in Gary's home.

So Gary, before we get on to the kind of football and politics, can we just start back with

your childhood?

So you grew up in Leicester and your dad did what?

My dad was sold fruit on Leicester Market.

How often?

Every day?

Or once a week?

He'd done Sunday and Monday, he would get up at three, four in the morning, go and buy

all the fruit from the wholesaler, take it to the market stall, set it all up, set it

all day.

And what did the market stall do?

Come on, do his book work and then fill the stall.

And how the market stall was basically a huge table laid with fruit?

It was, no, it was like a square.

So a square of, say, counters and in the middle he stood and I went, I used to go and work

on holidays, Christmas, because Christmas particularly, because it was really busy for him.

And I think that made me want to be a footballer because it was too much like your own work.

And his grandfather, your grandfather, your great grandfather?

Yeah, they were all at this family business.

Did you know that me and Alastair went to the same school?

No, he was just saying, and did you remember him at school?

Did you know?

No, no.

What?

Was he not a legend for his football policy?

By that stage.

I hadn't played for Maradona by then.

I was three years old.

The only reason you might have noticed me is because I never, ever, ever took off my Bernie

scarf, ever.

I once nearly got a spell for it.

But I remember Gary, because Gary was, he was already a bit of a football star and

a cricket star.

Cricket?

I used to be a cricketer, not a footballer.

Yeah.

And it's a treat.

I was, obviously I've been doing a little work on Wikipedia.

I see that.

Yeah, exactly.

So, but it says that you started playing quite serious cricket about the age of 11.

Is that right?

I played both cricket and football, and it was always serious to me, usually competitive

sportsmen.

Show me a sportsman that's not competitive, I'll show you, someone that's not very good.

But at 11, you were sort of in the Leicester schools.

Leicester County side, yeah.

Yeah, Leicestershire.

I've kept in Leicestershire schools right from under 11 until I left school at 16.

I don't even remember.

There was another kid at school who people thought was going to be the footballer who

was called Carl Jays.

Yeah, I remember him.

He was a goalkeeper.

Yeah, he was a goalkeeper.

He went to Northampton, I think.

Yeah.

Pro career, yeah.

I mean, I remember people thinking he was like going to be the one, and you were good.

I mean, everyone knew you were a good player.

I was tiny, though, as a kid.

Yeah.

I didn't really grow.

I didn't reach puberty until I was about 17.

You're joking.

It was pretty damn embarrassing in the showers.

Yeah.

It was a hide and go.

Yeah.

I know.

So, and then I suddenly grew from 17 to 18, and then that's probably why my development,

I was never like a child superstar.

Like, you know, I wasn't a Michael Owen or a Wayne Rooney or anything like that, or a

Jude Bellingham.

And what did you make of that time, Leicester, did you sort of think when you were signed

as a pro, did you think you'd become what you became in terms of kind of establishing

the international?

No, not at all.

I dreamt of it.

But to be absolutely frank, every level that I reached, I thought, hmm, this will find

me.

I remember, you know, I was quite surprised they signed me in the first place as an apprentice,

but then I scored goals.

And then I got in the reserve team.

You know, when you play in the reserve team, you play who wanted to, the players that are

not in, they were kind of my players that I'd admired.

And I thought, what am I doing here?

And then I got in the first team and I still managed to score goals.

But I'd never had that massive self-believe until I was probably my mid-twenties.

Who was that team?

What was in that last two years?

People like Mark Wallington was in goal.

We'd had like Larry May, Andy Peake, Dave Buchanan.

I mean, even people like...

What do you think of these players?

Good players.

I've lost for a year.

He's lost last time.

He's closed his eyes.

I've got one that's actually, Alice has reminded me of this.

So, Jock Wallace, he's a bit like Alistair, right?

Kind of grumpy Scottish dude.

Absolutely.

And I'll tell you, Jock Wallace, the first time I ever met Jock Wallace was a Leicester

reserve game.

He'd just got the job.

As the manager?

Yeah, as the manager.

As the new manager.

I'd kind of just gotten the reserves.

I was 17 at the time.

And I came in to the dressing room at halftime and I sat down and Jock Wallace, the first

time I seen him, marched in, slammed the door behind him, he was like, he's the size

of Alice, a bit bigger actually.

Big, wide, he's got a super strong Scottish accent.

And he came in and he was going, you lazy little English shite and all this and I thought,

he's looking at me.

And I thought, oh, God.

And then he came over and he quite literally picked me up by the scruff of the night and

pinned me against the dressing room wall, he's like, effing this and that, you f***ing

it and I went, oh my God, I mean, I wouldn't have minded, but we were two nil up and I'd

scored both goals, but I was, I was a jibbering wreck in the second half, I was hopeless.

And at the end of the game, he came in again, I was trembling, I was like, and he went,

my office, nine o'clock in the morning, I went, okay, never slept to wink.

I thought I was out, I thought my end of, I thought I was it, my career was over.

And I got there about 845 and I sat outside like the naughty boy in the waiting for the

headmaster.

And he came in and he went, come in laddie, sit down, I went, okay, sat down trembling

and he goes, I've just got something to say to you, you were magnificent last night.

And I went, I beg your pardon.

Sorry.

He said, I just want to make sure you keep your feet on the ground.

And I went, oh, thank you very much for that.

You couldn't do that to me.

I mean, I love Jock though.

I mean, Jock made, you know, people talk about important people in your life and it's very

easy to go off the rails as a young teenage lad that's done quite well in football.

But he made sure I didn't go out at night.

I'm dedicated and he just made sure I'd get myself the best possible chance to be successful.

But great.

But that management style presumably has gone out of fashion.

I would think so.

I would think so.

Famous.

You never got a yellow card, let alone a red card.

I find that incredible.

Never tackled anyone.

No, but seriously.

You tend to lose your rag-like, mid-to-match to the episode.

I know, but it's not like it is now, Alistair.

I mean, it's still ridiculous, but it's not like it isn't, like everyone gets, I get a

yellow card now just for being in possession of large ears or something stupid.

But in those days, I mean, as a look forward, I used to think they had to commit grievous

bodily harm to get a yellow card, the defenders, but so it wasn't that common.

I mean, people like, you know, remember Alan Smith had played at Leicester and then Arsenal

and played for England.

I think he only had one.

In fact, I played in the game, he had it and he denies this, but I know it's true because

the referee came over and he went to his pocket and he went in his bromie accent, you don't

give me a yellow card.

Do you not know my disciplinary record?

And I thought, no, I mean, he got one.

And what was the closest you got?

Closest I got was in Spain.

That was a miracle.

Surviving three years in Spain without a yellow card was staggering.

The closest I got was when he gave a decision against me and I just laughed.

He went for his pocket, I said, you're going to book me for laughing.

Well, you would get a book for that sometimes.

Yeah, I wasn't, you know, I suppose, yeah.

But are you generally very, very mild-mannered?

Yes, yes.

I don't really have much of a temper.

You know what?

Not really.

And was you always been mild-mannered?

You were mild-mannered as a kid?

Yeah, I was really.

I was like my mother, my dad had a real temper and my brother's got a real temper, but my

mum was very calm, really calm all the time.

Yeah.

So can you tell us a bit about her?

You haven't heard much about her?

My mum, she was born in Norfolk.

She moved to Leicester when she was young.

She was a hairdresser, quite glamorous and I mean, both my parents, I lost both of them

about with four or five years ago.

They actually got divorced when I was about 20, 21, which I found really hard, but I could

see it coming.

By the time you were in your early 20s, you were seriously famous, right?

Yeah.

Yeah.

So from when do people start recognising you in the streets?

Well, presumably in Leicester City, they were recognising you.

Yeah, around the mid-20s, I looked me in Leicester, then I went to Everton, started scoring a lot

of goals.

So I started to get well-known in England and play for the national team.

But in terms of real fame, it was after the Mexico 86 World Cup, things changed dramatically.

I remember arriving home and driving back up north and stopped at the service station

and it was just swarms and it was just incredible.

How did your parents respond to that?

Well, my mum always used to say, oh, it's great, I love you and all.

My dad's kind of old school, he never gave any of his emotions away and I knew he trusted

me.

He was the only person, I think, in the world that had a bet on me to win the Golden Boot

in 1986.

I think he got 16 to one, so I won a few quick, but it was one of the most poignant things

that ever happened to my life was when my dad was seriously ill at the end, he had lung

cancer, he was a massive smoker.

So it wasn't a huge surprise.

He was late, it's kind of 78, 79, and then I was going up to Leicester almost every

day and lots of times to see him and for the first time in a while we really had proper

conversations and I remember him, we're talking about football and I said, you know, my career

is really surprising.

And he went, no, he said, what do you mean it's a surprise, I went, well, you couldn't

have known that I was going to be, he went, I always knew, I went, you could have told

me.

And then one of our last conversations was really got me was he was really near the end

and it was probably the last kind of composmentous conversation we had.

And as I left, he held my hand and he went, I love you.

I'd never heard him say that.

No, they did not generation, you know, stoics a little bit, a bit soft that is.

And I went, I love you too, dad.

And I went, I was in a lift, I think it was on the 7th floor and it was just me in it

and I'm sobbing, I'm sobbing and it stopped the next floor and about six nurses walked

in.

I was like, are you all right when you end up, sorry, I'm sorry, but yeah.

Did you, did you enjoy the fame?

Do you have a sense of it?

I've always enjoyed the famous.

Are you?

They're, they're a downside, but you know, yeah, people are lovely and that's the thing.

I know it's a little bit difficult and you can get, I think you can misunderstand things

because of Twitter or social media where people have a go at you, but it's a very tiny percentage.

And they're the ones that shout the loudest, I think.

So you perhaps noticed them, but by and large, people are lovely.

And you were one of the first English players to go abroad and be successful.

And what are the first as well to bother to learn the language?

Well, I, when I went there, I did, I never,

This is busily.

Busily, yeah.

When I went there, I kind of looked at the players that have been successful and English

players that had gone abroad and the ones that had done well, kind of the ones that

immerse themselves in the culture, learn the language.

People like Ray Wilkins and people like Trevor Francis and people like Kevin Keegan, Tony

Woodcock.

They'd all been, you know, very successful abroad, but they'd all learned the language

and I thought that it's got to be important.

So as soon as I got there, I started having lessons three days, three days a week for

two years.

We had lessons with Michelle, then wife and it really helped because, you know, you're

in the dressing room, you can, you can chat, you can get the banter, you can have some

fun.

And at those days, were most of the players Spanish?

Were most of the players Spanish?

Yeah.

In those days, they were only allowed two foreign players.

Goodness.

So it was, it was very different.

But the manager was English.

The manager, Terry Vanibals was the manager.

He was English.

Obviously the Spanish players, I mean, we spoke Spanish and Terry Vanibals spoke, Spanish

was really good, but he'd still use a lot of English and adjectives and stuff like that.

So we played, England played against Spain in the Burnabout in Real Madrid, Real Madrid's

ground.

And, and we've had to meet up on the Monday, but Bobby Robson said to me, there's no point

you coming back to London flying out with us, why don't you fly from Barcelona to Real

Madrid?

So I said, yeah, okay, I'll do that.

So we flew out on the plane and I was like with six of my teammates and they were all

giving it, are you going to get, are you going to give you a good kick in and all this sort

of usual stuff.

So, sorry, the game, the game happens and I managed to score four goals and we beat

them four to England.

So it's great.

And at the end of the game, at the end of the game, the goalkeeper that I scored four

against was Andoni Zubithareta and he was a great goalkeeper and a wonderful lad.

And I don't know where he picked this up, but he came into the dressing room at the

end of the game into our dressing room, walked over, shot me by the end, he went in a perfect

cockney accent, he went, fuck you now.

And yeah, I think it might have been from one of Terry Vanibals.

Yeah.

And you mentioned Bobby Robson there, Bobby Robson, your manager.

I wish he was here to talk on leading, he'd have been brilliant.

Oh yeah.

He would have been amazing.

But tell us a bit about Bobby Robson and especially that, because the other iconic

moment in your career was that, and you didn't know because you didn't know what the camera

angle would be, but when Gazza realises that if you get through to the final, he's not

going to be there because he just picked up the card.

This is 1990 against Andoni.

1990?

Yep.

Yeah.

Oh, he's doing well there.

He's doing well.

Yeah, he was.

And there's you looking over to the bench saying, keep an eye on him, what do you mean

by that?

Well, obviously, because he got the yellow card, it was quite obvious that he was going

to have to, you know, he would miss the final if we got through to the final.

And we managed to, there was one, one in normal time.

And when he got the yellow card, I was really close.

And it was also really close to the bench, like 10 yards from the side of the pitch.

I was really in close proximity.

And he did the found them.

And soon as the referee brandished the card, we all knew, of course we knew that he was

out of the final because he got two yellow cards.

So I was still with Gazza and then his bottom lip started to go and there's a tear in his

eye.

And I'm starting to selfish reasons in many ways.

I'm thinking we need him, you know, and he's gone here.

He's like, so I'm, so I look at the bench and Bobby Robson's like there.

So I've just gone like pointing to my temple or something, you know, have a word with him

or keep an eye on him, whatever I said.

And obviously not knowing that it would be become this event that I get asked about as

probably as much as anything else other than my favorite flavor of Christmas.

But, but I guess we're actually rallied in the second half and sorry, an extra time and

played really well.

But and then we had the penalty shoot after Terry this.

So we were in the center.

You know, these bonus shoes.

It's horrible.

You have to wait about 10 minutes to do.

And I was taking the first penalty and Bobby Robson gathered us around the four of us that

volunteered and Chris Waddle was only for Gazza was going to take one and but he wasn't

he didn't feel before kind of, yeah, volunteer before, but then you get substitutions.

But then also you have to volunteer again, but they're only four.

And so we were there, the five of us and Bobby Robson goes in the middle and he went, lads,

don't let me down.

There are 30 million people watching this back home.

But so Peter beers in myself.

We burst out laughing and say, oh, cheers.

That's not the best team, John.

Is it?

It was funny, I was funny, but it didn't work.

No, no.

Alas.

It was a sense of Spain and what you saw to Spain and how the culture differed and had

you been, had you lived abroad before and I'd never, I'd never even contemplated living

abroad before it kind of came out of the blue everton call me one day said we've accepted

an offer from Barcelona.

And in those days, you didn't have much choice about it.

You could.

I didn't have to go.

But when a club tells you that and I kind of tell the Everton fans that sometimes you

shouldn't while you left us and I got stick for ages.

And in fact, one of the pluses for social media gave me the chance to actually explain

that wasn't quite like that.

I mean, in an ideal world, I just stayed another couple of years at Everton because it was

such a good team.

It's the best team I've ever played for.

They were so good.

We would have won loads of titles and won nothing when I was there, but it was only one year.

So in fact, the way we decided whether to go and I mean, Michelle, we went, I said,

what that kind of agreed a fee to Barcelona, it's like one of the biggest clubs in the

world.

It's a huge opportunity.

But I'm quite happy at Everton.

I don't know what to do.

And she's like, we were discussing, why don't you know, what do you think?

What do you think?

I don't know.

Shall we go?

You go.

And in the end, we decided it.

We both got a piece of paper and we decided that we'd write yes or no on the piece of

paper and put it in a thing.

And then we'd open them both up.

But what happens if one was yes and one was no?

It's a good question that will never need to be answered because they both said yes.

But I said, yeah, I don't know.

I suppose I just said, is that you saying yes or me saying yes?

It's not exactly sort of high-level data and analytics, there's no.

No, it's true.

So you arrived in Spain and we were aware of Catalonia and the tendency of Catalonia.

I didn't know the history.

You learn it very quickly.

You know, obviously it was not that long really after Franco's and there was very much that

feeling.

They used to talk to me that, you know, they have a thing called, you know, Los Culez and

Mess came club is Barcelona, which is more than more than a football club.

And they, they say that because during Franco, you know, the only place they could really

speak their language they felt was inside the new camp.

So therefore Barcelona team became kind of this really important thing against Franco

Spain, which was seen as Real Madrid.

So that's where this classical real rivalry comes from.

It's kind of more than a football match, more than a club.

So is there a sense in which that experience politicized, did you think?

I think, I think that's the kind of an age I started.

Yeah.

I was always interested in politics.

My dad was, my dad was a real thatcher.

I was a real Tory.

So you kind of influence that one.

And how did he think about it?

He's a small businessman.

Small businessman, you know, and that was, that was the thing.

And you've mentioned Michelle a couple of times who you married.

And I guess another defining moment must have been when George, your son became, and that's

actually, I don't even remember.

That's the first time I got to know you after school was when I was doing fundraising for

leukemia research as well.

Just tell us a little bit about that because, yeah, I was, I mean, it was tough.

It was our first child, George, he was about six weeks old and he developed this like kind

of bump on his head like a spot, but it was hard.

So I thought, this is, we'll get it checked.

So we took him to the doctor and the doctor said, oh, it looks like kind of some skin

condition.

I can't remember the name or ridiculously long word.

And he said, we'll take a tiny biopsy and we'll get back to you in about 10 days.

And then within those 10 days, he started developing more of these bumps.

And then they were on the top of his head everywhere and he was pretty bold as a baby.

And they were quite hard.

His head was like a golf ball.

It's really weird.

And we went back and we saw these, there were two doctors there waiting and we walked

in.

And is this in Spain or?

No, it's here.

No, this is the top stuff.

We didn't have kids until I was back at Tottenham.

So George was born in 1991.

So it was the end of 1991 because it was just a few weeks later.

So we went back to the, see the doctors and they said, well, it's come back as the skin

condition.

We thought it might be.

So I thought, oh, that's what a relief.

So I started to worry.

And I said, well, just one thing, I said, I know you say that I said, but also I said

in, in the last 10 days, he really seems to be unwell and he's been groaning and always

had way more of these things on his head and, and they went, oh, really?

And I went, yeah, he's clan seemed to be up though.

So they took his outfit off, took his nappy off, and then I'll never forget it.

They just looked at each other to them.

They went, I'm really sorry.

This is something much more important than that.

Much more serious.

And I went, what do you mean?

They went, oh, we need to do blood tests.

We need to check first, but this does look like leukemia.

And that was a word that was like, I knew, I knew it's just some kind of blood cancer.

I didn't know much about it.

And it was like, oh, and within half an hour on our way to Great Ormond Street.

And then we're kind of in there for seven months and two or three times, they told us

it's very unlikely to make it through the night.

But somehow he did.

And it was, you know, Michelle was there for seven months by, you know, in a bed by side.

There was only one small bed.

So I, I used to went home.

I didn't play for about three weeks.

And then I went back to football training and then I started playing, which was actually

the best thing because it was the only time I could switch off from it.

But he got into remission, he got the all clear, and then you go home and you just hope

it doesn't come back.

And, and he's now 31.

And does he remember any of this?

No, nothing.

He was a small baby.

He was a tiny, tiny little baby.

But he's, you know, he now does quite a lot for, you know, the commuterities and stuff

like that.

What were the media like at that time?

I can't remember it being a big story.

I was incredible.

I mean, a Great Ormond Street, the first night I went home, Michelle stayed with him.

It was about three in the morning I came home.

I told the club, Terry Vanibals said, I'll come and pick you up in the morning and I'll

tell you to the hospital.

He was brilliant.

And when he did, he picked me up and I came out my house and there must have been, it

was like last week, the week or two ago, I was about 50 journalists out there and cameras

and stuff.

So somehow they'd, you know, things leak and they were outside the hospital every time

I came out and every time I went in and every time I came out, it was difficult.

The response from the public was extraordinary.

I used to get like a huge bin bag that used to have been full of letters every week.

We'd come into the hospital and it took me two years to reply to them, but I thought

I should because it was, it was so moving what they, you know, the amount of support

we had.

But it's interesting because you like, I always think about, we've talked before about

this whole thing about football has got to be role models and which I don't buy at all.

Because I mean, you young men who because you get a football become very, very famous

and very well, and suddenly something happens in your private life and you can sit and absolutely

play a game.

I sort of understand it though.

With matters of massive interest, with fame, it's part of it.

I didn't, it didn't bother me that much, no, because I, you know, I was playing for England

at the time, you know, I played in World Cups.

I understand the public interest and they were, you know, they were all kind.

It wasn't like anyone was nasty, they were just doing their jobs.

So I didn't mind that too much.

The role model thing with young football is, you know, some will choose to use it, some

will choose not to.

I think I've been really proud of, of some of our young footballers in recent years,

you know, over the pandemic with captains getting together, raising money for, you know,

the NHS, with Marcus Rashford, he shouldn't have had to do what he did, but he did and

he did it wonderfully, turn government policy.

So, you know, with, with racism issues, you know, the likes of Raheem Sterling and, and

many others, I think they've done themselves proud and sometimes you forget how young they

are.

Yeah, exactly.

And, you know, and the way they do their post-match interviews, how multilingual a lot of them

are, particularly, you know, obviously the players from abroad when they come here.

So I'm proud of my sport and proud of the young footballers particularly.

Gary, I mean, in some ways you were, I mean, you worked unbelievably hard, but you were

also on the fortunate end of things.

I mean, you, as you say, you continue to perform better than you were expecting to.

Your father believed in you, but you maybe didn't think that when you were 14, 15, you

were going to become one of the most famous footballers in the world.

So, how about young men who dedicate themselves to this and don't quite make it?

And the reason I'm thinking about this, I did a bit of work with David Dean around prisons

and with Arsene Wenger, and I remember Arsene Wenger saying that he was very, very concerned

about young French players who put so much heart and soul into making it, didn't quite

make it.

Yeah.

And he pointed out that actually some of the terrorist attacks in France had been conducted

by young men who'd been almost made it as professional footballers had already made

it.

Yeah.

And he really believes that, you know, we need to rethink the whole youth academy stuff

and keep people in school longer so they have alternatives.

I think he's right.

They have changed a lot.

The academy is now, they do offer education well into late teens for young footballers.

So, you know, even if you go and you think you've got a chance, they carry on their education

within the academy.

But I mean, it's brutal.

It's, I mean, nearly every young kid now, not just boys, but girls now as well, want

to be professional footballers and there are so few spaces.

I mean, one of my boys played at Chelsea's academy for a few years, I used to go on

and look around the pitches, every age group, there must have been hundreds and hundreds

of kids there.

And you know, out of all those hundreds, a couple might get to the top, a couple might

get a lower league career somewhere and the rest won't, but they all think they're going

to make it.

So, it's so hard.

How did you work that through with your son?

I think with my children, I think it's important to know that they, you know, they're very

fortunate, they're in a good position.

You know, if he's not going to be a footballer, he'd kind of be probably all right in life

because his dad's done okay.

I think it's more for those that the dream is to get out of somewhere, out of poverty,

out of what and the reliance and the parents get keen and they, you know, they think they're

going to go and then the disappointment happens.

So I think for my boys, it was fine.

I don't, I just conversations with them, I, you know, I would just say to them, it's

really, really difficult.

Just play and enjoy it.

That's all that matters.

You'll reach your level.

You'll reach the level that you got.

As long as you try hard, as long as you have fun and you'll reach your level.

And that, I would say that to any parent, don't get ahead of yourself.

Don't get ahead of yourself.

It's so hard.

So competitive.

And that's why people, I, you know, when I hear fans and stuff talking or even, you

know, people on radio callings and, and they blambass players, he's useless.

He's rubbish.

And I think you have no idea how good you have to be just to be a professional, you

know, you can see it in sports like golf and I'm quite envious because we all know, like

you, you can compare yourself to the same course.

You can see hit the same shots, whereas in football, you tend to end up just playing

at the level you play at.

And one thing I would say to, you know, people and parents are the ones that are really critical

of professional footballers.

I said, hang on a minute.

Can you remember someone at school that used to think he was unbelievable, but he never

quite made it.

He never, and I go, that's how hard it is.

Remember that when you, when you lambast these professional players, they are way better

than you think.

And the Burnley ones.

Oh, that is, that is a low, low, low, low, low, low, low, blow.

Do you, do you resent at all the fact that, I mean, you've made a good living out of

football, but you, in a way, you've made a better living out of broadcasting?

Yeah.

Well, when you look at these players today, a lot of them, like even in way below the

Premier League will be earning sort of money you couldn't even dream of when you're a

player.

Yeah.

It doesn't.

No, I mean, I'm fine.

I'm fine.

It's one I would have known, but I would imagine that a lot of players in my generation

had wished they'd been born 15, 20 years later.

But for listeners who don't follow this all the time, it's gone from you earning 300,000

pounds a year to people earning 300,000 pounds a week, right?

Absolutely right.

I was, I think I was one of the top players in the world when I was at Barcelona and a

game when I re-joined Tottenham.

And so, but...

And that was a few hundred thousand pounds a year.

That was just over about 330, I think it was something like that, which was, it felt like

an enormous amount of money at the time.

It is, obviously it is, and was, but the chart since the Premier League started has just

gone, ooh, the graph has gone escalating rapidly and good luck to them.

I mean, it's what it is and you can't really control it because the best players will be

sought after.

You end up with, it's almost like an auction.

How do you feel about the way that football clubs are now part of this kind of bigger

geo-strategic geopolitical stuff?

Well, it worries me a little bit, particularly, I have a real problem with state-owned football

clubs, even if they're disguised not as that.

But I'm afraid that's, that train has left the station and we're stuck with it.

So in some ways, it's given us the biggest, most professional, most exciting league in

the world because of, we're now attracting the big players from all over the world.

Whereas we never really did that before, the big players would always go, and they still

do to a degree, go to Barcelona and Real Madrid, or they used to go to Italy.

But nowadays, of course, most of them come here where even, you know, likes of Harlan,

for example, he would never have come to English football 20 years ago, even 10 years ago.

His dad did.

But his dad didn't, his dad wasn't as anywhere near as good as his lad.

So one of the things we talked about in the show before is German model, an idea of clubs

which are mostly owned by the fans, where you have real control, you don't maybe have

as much money.

I mean,

It's too late for us now.

I think it's too late for that.

But I do admire the German model and they kept their prices down, their tickets in, which

I think we should do anyway.

I mean, we get so much money from television and TV rights, you know, the important thing

is to keep the grounds full because the product even on television is nothing like as good

if you don't.

Anastas has told me a lot about his playing football, the Marathon, that was a big, big

moment in his life.

What game was that, Alastair?

Exactly.

It was the first soccer raid.

And do you know what my team was, Gary?

Go on then.

Michael and Gull, Dunga, SAE, Matthias, me, Campbell, Maradona, Zola, Ginole.

Give us a sense of Maradona.

It's really, it's very similar to when I watch Messi.

They do things that, you know, I played obviously high level and their players way better than

me, you know, like Loats, unbelievable, like Gazza and people with that kind of talent,

Zico and Platini and, you know, all these wonderfully wonderful players.

But then above them, Zidane, all these people, but above them, you've got Messi and Maradona

who play a game that the rest of us are not familiar.

They see things almost as though they're above themselves, watching down on themselves.

And they could get out of any situation, they could beat people, they could manipulate the

ball like they were using their hand and that's not meant as a pun for the hand of God.

I did two documentaries, I did one where I was in his company for three days.

It was the most extraordinary three days imaginable.

His life was completely nuts, everywhere he got, there was huge entirages of people bowing.

He was like, I spent three days in Buenos Aires and it was nuts.

I just think no wonder he's mad, no wonder he's got that other side to him and you can

see it.

What was he like?

Give us a bit of a sense of his personality off the pitch.

Lovely.

Lovely.

Fun, engaging.

Love people.

Sense of humour.

And you don't feel a huge sort of rage or a scent about that 86 moment.

I don't.

One or two of my teammates do, Pete Shilton, Terry Butcher, they'll never forgive him.

And they say it to this day, I was different, he just did something, got away with it.

It'd been one of ours, we'd have been, you know.

You'd have done the same, wouldn't you?

I wouldn't have ever thought to do the same and it was so almost brilliant the way he

did.

Just make his head a little bit bigger, wouldn't it?

Yeah.

I wouldn't have crossed my mind, otherwise I might punch the one in with five minutes

to go, near the end for the equaliser.

But it's not something that he would ever think about doing, but there's no question

in my mind he must have done that once or twice before, because it was so.

And then of course, after that, he scores the greatest goal of all time.

You were sort of the other end, weren't you, goalie?

I didn't see the hand of goal, I couldn't see it.

When he did score the second goal though, I honestly felt like I ought to applaud.

Really?

Not that would, because he'd get hammered at home, but it was that good.

And I just thought, oh my God, how did, what have I just seen?

It just went straight right.

On a pitch that was almost unplayable, it was like a cabbage patch.

Gary and Alistair, let's take a quick break and we'll be back in a second.

Welcome back to the Restless Politics, leading with me, Rory Stewart.

Me, Alistair Campbell, and our guest, Gary Linnicka.

I last saw you in Qatar.

You were pleasantly surprised.

When I saw you, you were quite cheered up by the whole thing.

You thought it was quite an enjoyable experience, you liked being able to get between the games.

There were pros and cons to it.

I felt, it didn't really surprise me.

I knew the football would be good, because football is in a world cup.

But some of the games were fantastic.

The stadiums were beautiful, as you'd expect when you've spent 200 odd billion.

But it was kind of strange.

There was no kind of social, there were a few restaurants that were kind of pop-ups,

really, and they're all in a line in the same place, they use your suspects.

But you could get to a lot of matches.

That was the big bonus for us, and that's a purely selfish thing,

because you could actually, normally we'd park ourselves in a studio,

say Russia, for example, in the middle of Red Square, and have a nice view,

but watch a football match on the telly.

Whereas there, we actually went to every game that we covered,

and that was a massive, that was a massive bonus.

The crowds, it was a little bit surreal.

It wasn't kind of a normal football crowd, but there were positives to that as well.

There was no trouble.

There was no trouble.

There was no trouble.

Very diverse.

Lots of people I met from countries in Asia and various other spots,

in North Africa particularly, so there were pros.

So you were in sport, you were a footballer, and then you became a broadcaster.

I've never really understood how a sportsman can take to broadcasting afterwards.

It always feels like such a second best to me.

Well, you can't play any longer, and it's his second best, of course it's second best.

But what else can, you know, there's nothing that you can do that would be on the same

level.

So you'd accept that it is second best?

Oh yeah, I had this really interesting conversation with Michael Owen about the feeling of scoring

a great goal, and he trains horses, and I said to him, is that, do you, is he,

is it the same when your horse wins?

He went, it's still not the same.

There's nothing that compares with scoring a big goal in a big game, or winning a massive

match.

So you really, really struggle when it stops.

Loads of players, and obviously, you know, it's really, I've been lucky, I've found something

else I could do.

But there are so many jobs in television, there are only so many managerial coaching

roles.

And after that, so many players have a difficult time, you know, there are only so much now

if the top ones, if they're sensible enough, that might be okay, but you know what it's

like the more you earn, the more you spend generally.

So, I don't know, this crazy statistic about football is getting divorced from the age,

I think, from 35 to 40, 70% addiction, all sorts of problems, you know, the fame goes,

the money stops.

And did you know Fancy being a coach or a manager?

No.

Because you just...

Because I don't think I'd be very good at it.

Why not?

Because I'm not a leader, and I don't know why I'm on this show.

You've got Joe Wallace in your head, you've got Joe Wallace in your head, you're not an

angry Scott, that's all.

No, I'm not, I know.

Why do you know lots of things?

You know.

But I just...

I looked at TV, I was really into...

I used to write match reports when I was a kid, but I used to go to those stuff.

I used to do that.

I used to draw pictures of Charlie Hurley with his red and white stripes and stuff.

Yeah, you're older than me.

So, I used to do that, and then they used to call me Junior Dez in the England team,

like after Dez Lyon and maybe because I was starting to show a bit of a few grays, but

I was interested.

I looked at the journalists when they were writing their match reports to see how they

did it.

I used to sit by a radio.

I just thought to myself as well, I want to go into football because it was kind of

just becoming a thing back then, TV.

And I used to look at other sports, and I used to think like Sue Barker and David Gow, for

example, they were presenters of their sports, cricket, tennis.

And I thought, well, football's not really got that.

Jimmy Hill did it occasionally, and Bob Wilson did it.

So I thought, if I can correct the presenting side, it might give me some kind of longevity

in the business.

And it's approved to be, but it was hard at the start.

What did you have to learn about it?

What didn't come naturally?

What was the studying?

Everything.

I think I've said I was born to be in the box, not on the box.

You know, I did punditry for a start, which wasn't that difficult.

I just give my opinion when asked a question.

Presenting a show is a whole different ball game.

What's the difference in the two?

Because we're kind of pundits, aren't we?

Well, you are, but you don't really have to.

This is not live, for example.

So you've not got to hit the end of the show and hit the count now.

You've got to get into the next link whenever that is.

So you've got to go from chat to actually then doing a link into a feature or a link

into the match.

And all the time you've got to hit certain times, talking in your ear, not constantly,

but sometimes.

But you're hearing, I like open talk back because I like to know what's going on everywhere.

Some people just have switch, the difference is switch is just the information you need

to hear.

But open talk back means everything.

So I hear them talking to the camera, and I like that.

And you can hear them talk down.

Yeah, I was giving these big ears for a reason, I can listen and talk, but it took me eight.

The first two years, when I started presenting, I did football focus, I used to drive home

at lunchtime on a Saturday after the show.

So many times I thought, I'm never going to be able to do this.

But it wasn't quite bad enough for them to get rid of me.

And then I became comfortable in the environment and knew how it worked.

And I knew how to look at a camera, and I knew how to deliver a thing.

And what about your little bon-mo, your little sort of quips and all that?

I mean, I've done that, but that's fine.

You're on the minute.

But you know what?

No, you know what?

It's the McGowan, right?

He used to do, I mean, Alice is the only one that does me.

Really?

But he does me, and he used to have the show that went out on a Saturday night just before

match of the day.

Before the news, then the day was, we used to watch it because that was that period when

I wasn't, maybe kind of spare time, and I used to watch him doing the show.

He'd do all these mannerisms, you know, and the little kind of half swallow I used to do.

And I used to go on the show, and then the thing that Alice and McGowan just did, I just

actually did it.

And I got so conscious that I stopped watching his show before it was on.

Because it was pulling me off.

And I guess we should come to where we've just been, as it were, with the little recent

controversy.

The elephant in the room.

No, it's not the elephant in the room, it's all.

No.

But it's interesting how that, what that said about, well, first of all, give us your take

on why you think it became such a big thing.

I'm still bewildered.

Do you still feel a little bit odd?

I think it was so disproportionate.

What was your experience of it, to talk us through how it happened?

Well, there was the policy, which I, you know, which I kind of, when they spelled it out,

I thought, oh, come on, you can send people to a country, perhaps where they don't want

to go, that seems, and I thought, I don't think this is going to work, is it even going to

be legal?

Obviously, we all recognise it as a massive problem, but you know, it's going to get worse

as well with climate change and stuff like that, and people flee in their countries.

And I just thought, come on, you know, and then somebody replied, it was quite an aggressive

response, and I, what I did was reply to them, and at the end of it, you know, I added the

line, it's, you know, some of the language use is not dissimilar to that used in the

early 30s in Germany, which was never meant as any kind of comparison with the Holocaust

or anything like that.

So you didn't reply on Twitter.

It was just a reply.

You're getting an end debate with someone on Twitter.

Yeah, you're basically, you're basically facing one.

Don't know what I never do either, but I only saw it because someone else that I follow

replied to it, so therefore I saw it, and I, for some reason, I responded.

You replied, and then presumably lots of likes and retweets began to, people.

Well, I began to get it noticed, but I went to bed, and I never, I didn't know what was

going on, and I woke up the following morning, and you know, like, when you wake up, I don't

have, look at my phone so I've had a coffee because I don't function till I've had coffee

in the morning.

So, so I came down the kitchen and I had my coffee, I'm drinking my coffee, I put my

phone down.

You know, like in the morning, I don't know about you, but I get, you know, five WhatsApp

messages or sometimes if the boys are chatting amongst themselves in our group chatting might

go up to 20, 30 maybe.

So I wake up in the morning, look to my phone, it's got 237 WhatsApp messages.

I've gone.

Oh my God, what's happened?

And I've really, I'd really worried thoughts for a few seconds, I thought, because I couldn't

think of what it could possibly be.

And I thought it's either some kind of scandal or, or something happened to one of my kids

or, and I remember, and I opened it and the first message I saw was somebody showing me

the Daily Mail's front page, which obviously caused all this Ferrari, linking me to the

Nazis.

And I just went, oh, thank God for that.

That's all it is.

That's all it is.

I don't, you know, I don't mind that.

It didn't bother me.

I was okay.

And it just, it kind of just spiraled kind of cillily out of control.

But it was obviously speaking to something that's going on deep.

This is why I weighed in because I think it was speaking to something really odd, which

is that the right go on the whole time about free speech, but it has to be the speech that

they want heard.

Well, that's, that was kind of my first thing was really, hang on a minute, hang on.

This is, you know, I've not, I've not been abusive to anyone.

I've not, you know, I've not said anything particularly controversial.

I think it was factual.

I think I, you know, I, I'm not saying at all that policies echo those of Germany or

anything like that.

But sometimes, which I said sometimes, some of the language is not dissimilar.

We use words like, you know, invasion and swarms and criminals and rapists and all these

things.

And that could lead to something, it might not lead to something, but I've been an advocate

of, you know, I've done a lot with charities and stuff and with the refugee crisis for

a long time.

And that's kind of what, and when I went, when I met Tim Davy, when he first brought

in his guidelines, things, we had a discussion and I said to Tim, there are two things that

I will continue to talk up on.

I will not back down on.

And he agreed.

One of them was about the refugee crisis and the other one was about climate change.

So I, for me, this, I put this in that category.

Now, obviously, all these things will be linked to politics.

Pretty much everything is.

It's like when people say, sport, politics shouldn't mix.

They always mix.

And they can't, they can't not do.

So all my argument here was this, let's have some empathy towards these poor people that

are forced to flee persecution and war.

Do you think if it happened here, for example, if we suddenly, for some inexplicable reason,

we were attacked and we had to flee, flee somewhere, at least show some empathy, some

kind words, even if we obviously can't have everyone here.

We all know that.

I like your idea.

I've heard it many times on, on here, where it's, you know, towns have a percentage and

we could do that.

Just have a fair share.

I have a gut at Alstron, essentially, because he's going around wearing t-shirts saying

open borders at the moment.

No, it's not.

No, I'm not.

Why don't you say that?

My t-shirt, you're lying.

You see, that's a typical dream.

Think about borders.

It's people, not boats.

I think it's an important point because there is a part of the left that very, very, very

unrealistically, genuinely believes in open borders, there's a big movement and it may

not be something that you believe in.

No, I don't at all.

I think what happened here is because of the Daily Mail front page, which was nothing

like what I've said.

It was saying we, you know, comparing our policy to that of the Nazis.

That was not the case.

It was not the case.

I was just talking about some of the language.

You know, would I do it differently now, probably, after the flurry this course, but

I stick by those words and I think it's true and factual, so I don't think that impartiality

comes into it.

It's post-truth, because basically you say something and then they say you've said Suhana

Bravo was a Nazi, which you never said.

We've got to massively say that.

All proportion.

It is something, though, that's really weird about these papers.

And whenever I got caught up in a political thing, terrible thing to say, but in 2010

I said some parts of the northern part of my constituency are pretty primitive, right?

The mirror ran a headline, Tory MP calls his constituents primitive.

When something like this happens, and I totally sympathise with that because these things happen

all the time, but and even to people that write the pieces, sometimes the headline bears,

it's a totally different thing to watch the story of the time itself, but it's like, but

people only see the headline and that's all they see in the supermarkets when they go

and see all the paper.

Oh, look at that.

Oh, blimey.

What's your mind when you did the reply to the guy that did you think, I wonder if this

is within the guidelines or was it never in doubt for you?

No, it was never in, no, never, never contemplated would be an issue at all.

So then you got the question about how the BBC got itself into a state where it became

like a full blown crisis for a couple of days.

Yeah, they, I mean, silly, but it shouldn't have been.

And I'm a massive, you know, I love the BBC, I've been there for nearly 30 years.

But people, you know, people make mistakes, but they recognise that and they addressed

it and in the end, thankfully, we're all, you know, back to work.

It was amazing.

Wasn't it?

I mean, the outpouring of support was unbelievable.

It really was.

It was beautiful.

I mean, Alice was very active in this too.

But one of the things that you pointed out in terms of crisis management is knowing

how it's going to end.

And what became clear as everybody began boycotting match the day and nothing was going on that

this was not going to end well.

Yeah.

My teammates, it was funny.

I was in a restaurant then in the back of the car and firstly when Ian Wright pulled

out the show and then when Alan did as well and Shira, I must admit, I had a tear in my

eye.

Did they not tell you they were going to do it?

Ian Wright, when it first happened, said, why is this an issue?

If they do anything, I'm, you know, I'm not going on and, you know, it's one thing saying

that in a moment, but then actually to carry that through, they didn't need to do that.

That's also the context.

But then Alex Scott and then Jermaine Junis and Micah and then all the commentators and

then the match reporters and then even the footballers said they weren't going to do

any.

And it was like, my goodness, this is, this is kind of not doing it.

I think they're doing it more for the cause, but they actually, you know, to get that kind

of team spirit, that kind of camaraderie and togetherness, I mean, it just moved me.

It was just, it was just, it was beautiful.

Can I play my, my classic role as the youngster as a kind of...

I missed it.

I've been waiting for it.

The pseudo-tory.

So, and I'd love to get you thinking a little bit off your own case, let's not get caught

up in your case, onto the, the, the issue of impartiality.

So this was a quote from Chris Bryant, the Ronda MP, when a BBC presenter, Win Evans,

posted a tory event.

He said, it's really simple.

He's paid for by the license fee, public service broadcaster, he should keep his political

views to himself, otherwise he should be sacked or resigned.

His regular presenter on the BBC Wales show.

It's absolutely basic.

What do you think about that?

Yeah.

But what does he do?

Gary's a sports presenter.

I don't know what he does.

If he's using current affairs, I think that's, and they're a staff, a member of staff at

the BBC.

Absolutely.

No.

If you're a freelance guy that, like me, that works on football.

So, so let's, let's, let's...

No, I don't believe...

Let's move off you there and back to the basic as you've impartiality.

It's really difficult.

I think for me, what they have to think about, first and foremost, before you talk about

anybody else's impartiality, the government of the day, whoever that is, whether it's

Tory or Labour, cannot decide who the chairman of the BBC is or have any kind of influence

on who they put into, to be director of news or anything else.

That for me is where it needs to start.

So, otherwise, it's, it's really difficult.

Are you, have you ever thought about treating something or saying something public and then

not done it?

Yes.

Because you've thought...

Lots of times.

Go on then.

I have three rules.

Go on.

One, I don't tweet when I've had a drink.

I don't tweet when I'm angry, but I'm very, very rarely angry anyway.

And the third one is, every tweet that I do, I read it to myself, back.

And if I have 1% down, I don't send it.

Right.

Which happens quite a lot.

Sometimes they're really good jokes, it annoys me, or I think they're really good jokes.

No one else does.

So, and if you thought about, you know, because the other thing that is done is because it's

been such a big controversy is that you've, you've now got a strong political voice if

you want to.

If I want to.

And that, you know, that's the thing I'm not, I mean, I'm really interested in politics.

This is one of my favourites.

Thanks, Gaffer.

This is my favourite podcast.

It all goes back to the school.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

The same school.

Grammar school.

Grammar school, you insist.

He keeps insisting it's a comprehensive.

It's a comprehensive.

Grammar school.

Grammar school answer.

Are you kidding me?

You see?

I can't believe what he says.

No, no, no, no.

It's because I went midterm.

I went from.

Ah, maybe.

I went from Bradford Grammar School.

Yeah.

It's true.

He's out.

Can I tell you how I know?

Let me tell you how I know, because it's quite a, it's a crazy story really, because

I lived, I lived in a place called Braunston, yeah, or next to it, in Brownfields, until

I was 10.

And then we moved, but we, I'd just taken the 11 plus.

I passed the 11 plus, but we moved into the county.

We're slightly out Kirby Muxler.

So it was only one choice of school for me to go to under those circumstances, because

in the county, but it was a non football playing school.

My dad said, I cannot do that to you.

It's a rugby playing school.

So he said, right, we'll move back into the city.

We were in that house for one year, and for six months, I went to live with my grandparents

because they lived in the city so that I could go to the school that plays football.

So I went through my entire senior school career.

It wasn't the grammar school.

It was called city.

It was one of the first wave of comprehensives under Shirley Williams.

They weren't, it was a grammar school.

It was a grammar school.

Actually, I do know.

It was definitely, it changed.

It changed later.

Yeah.

But listen, just back finally to the politics.

What's the most political thing you're going to say between now and the general election?

I won't go involved.

I've never said who I vote for ever.

I've voted for lots of different parties at different points for different reasons.

I'm kind of your archetypal floating voter, to be honest.

I'm not kind of trying to...

You did a famous centrist tweet, didn't you?

Centrist, yeah.

Yeah.

Center forward.

Yeah.

Center forward all my life.

And, you know, from, you know, people say, oh, you've left me and all this, I'm not particularly

a lefty.

I'm certainly not from the right.

And I think I probably drift from center to left a little bit center.

Good.

Well, thank you for having us in your lovely home.

Thank you for being so open and frank, and thank you for helping Rory learn a bit more

about football.

Thank you.

And thank you, above all, for the amazing newsworthy revelation that Alasdair Campbell went to a

grammar school.

There you go.

Chat pop.

That was fascinating.

Have you known him for a long time?

Well, I knew him at school, but didn't know, as it were, knew of him, then got to know

him a bit when through leukemia research, because my best friend died of leukemia and

his daughter died of leukemia.

And then more, we didn't, we didn't, we didn't talk, I forgot about that.

We did once have a bit of a Barney on a golf course.

I don't play golf anymore, but I was on a golf course playing golf with Jamie Redknapp.

Let's stick with the football.

And it was during one of the World Cups when being a sort of bit of a rabid Scotland fan

and Scotland needless to say, weren't there.

And I wrote a piece of the types about how I could stab the BBC's coverage of the World

Cup because it was so anglo-phobic, anglo-centric and all about England.

And it wasn't that bad a piece, but anyway, Gary was really pissed off with it and he

let it be known.

I don't know, really, just got to know him more recently than of course during the People's

Vote campaign.

People's Vote campaign.

But I do think he's an amazing bloke because he was, you know, joking about your football

non-knowledge aside, he was a really, really, really good footballer.

And the reason why our podcast is produced by a company called Goalhangers, that is kind

of, he was the tap-in king.

But he was, the reason he got all those goals out was because he was just always in the

right place.

And there was also, I do think the red, I think he was playing down the red card, yellow

card thing.

I think he's got that sort of very calm equilibrium about him that even those high-pressure moments,

he didn't lose it.

And do you, I mean, do you, because you adore football, was there a time in your life when

you were a bit starstruck when you met great footballers who you'd seen on television?

Oh, when I was a kid, yeah, not, no, the only time I've genuinely been starstruck by a football

was Maradona.

And because he became my best mate within a week, I got over that quite quickly.

I think when you're in the presence of people that you think are genius, it's always that

you think.

Yeah.

But no, and Gary was, you know, but Gary was a really, really, really good footballer.

I also do think this is why the BBC were daft to sort of get into the mess over it.

I do think he's a brilliant broadcaster, which very few sports people are.

And that's partly because he's quite funny, isn't he?

Yeah.

As you say, he's good at the quips.

He's good at the one-liner, presents very well.

Self-deprecating.

Self-deprecating.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Is that good grammar school education, isn't it?

Set him up well.

Well, Rory, I'm going to check this because, I mean, honestly, I just can't get this.

Maybe because I went there in the middle of the term.

So because you're already past the 11 plus for the Bradford Grammar School, they let

you in.

Is that the 11 plus?

I think it might be worse than that, Rory.

I think you might have been a specific grammar school, Bradford Grammar School entrance.

I didn't realise that as a kid, you'd walk around all the time.

It's called the Burnley Scuffle.

Were you kind of slightly weird kid?

No, I think it was weird.

I was very...

I think my obsession with Burnley was partly born in Leicester because as a kid, as a young

child, I used to go to home games.

I never even thought of going to an away game.

And then because of this accident with my dad and we got moved to Leicester, I just...

The need to keep going back.

I think it was just feeling I was wrenched out of where I was really from.

And so I literally never, ever took the Burnley...

What on PE?

I never took my Burnley Scuffle.

You're sort of symbolising to everyone in Leicester that you just didn't belong.

You didn't want to be there.

I didn't belong.

I didn't belong.

And I'm never going to belong.

And we had a school uniform that was sort of dark blazer.

I wore a blue anorak and a Burnley Scuffle all the time.

And I remember once in a heat wave, sitting at a German Leicester with Mr. Webster.

And he was always saying, can't you take your coat off?

Can't you take your scarf off?

No, I'm not taking it off ever.

You were a bit of a weird kid, right?

No, no, no.

I was determined not to take my Burnley Scuffle.

I was determined that they knew I do not come from here.

I come from somewhere else.

I'm happy to be with you, but I'm not taking my scarf off.

And but I remember sitting there and it was an absolute heat wave.

It was one of the hottest summers ever.

And I wouldn't take it off.

I think on that heroic note, we should end our pod.

Thank you very much, Elson.

Thank you.

The Financial Times follows the money to find business stories in unexpected places.

We found a surprising one in the porn industry.

I'm Alex Barker, co-host of the FT Pushkin podcast, Hot Money.

Through the series, we reveal the real power behind this secretive global business.

You can check out our podcast and read selected articles for free at ft.com slash insights.

Machine-generated transcript that may contain inaccuracies.