Morbid: Episode 479: World's End Murders

You're listening to a morbid network podcast.

Mike Williams set off on a hunting trip into the swamps of North Florida where it was thought

he met a gruesome fate in the jaws of hungry alligators, except that's not what happened

at all.

And after the uncovering of a secret love triangle, the truth would finally be revealed.

Binge all episodes of Over My Dead Body Gone Hunting right now, ad-free on Wondery Plus.

Guys, July 25th, the paperback of The Butcher and the Wren is coming at you, and this is

a huge deal because paperbacks rule, first of all, and second of all, paperbacks are

awesome.

You can really shove them.

They're easy to carry around.

You can shove them in your bag, and you can bring them everywhere.

She's motioning back pocket.

I am.

I don't know why, but I think it's pretty small, so you can put it in your back pocket,

I think.

I know you got a big back pocket.

Shove it right in there.

You can put it wherever you want.

I don't care.

Just read it.

But read it first, preferably.

But do what you want, because I support all of you.

But the cool thing about this one, besides being able to put it wherever you want, is

there is a sneak peek of this sequel.

Woo!

The second book, The Second Butcher and the Wren book, there is a sneak peek chapter

in the paperback edition, which comes out July 25th, so go get it.

And then you can read a sneak peek chapter of the second one, and you can be like, I

read that chapter.

None of you did.

And then everybody who else got the paperback can be like, I did too.

And then you guys can talk about it, but everyone else will be like, I don't know what that

chapter is.

And you'll be cooler.

And right now, I'm one of the only people that can say I read that chapter and nobody

else did.

And now you can, too.

Get on my level.

Get on Ash's level.

July 25th, the paperback book edition of The Butcher and the Wren, go get it.

Everywhere!

I love you guys.

Books.

And literacy.

Hey, weirdos, I'm Ash.

And I'm Elena.

And this is Morbid.

This is Morbid.

It's the sun in my eyes dot com is what it is.

It is your bathed in a heavenly sunlight.

Aren't I always?

You always are.

I am.

Yeah.

I have a confession and I don't have my SPF on today.

Oh, I know.

I forgot to put this is disgusting of me.

I forgot to put any face moisturizer on today.

But I put my bod moisturizer on today, which is like very backwards for me.

How do you function?

If I don't put face moisture on, I feel like I'm actually kind of oily right now, to be

honest.

Well, thanks.

But I would feel like the, I feel the dryness.

I feel like.

No, I did this morning.

I intended to steal some of yours when I got here this morning and then commit theft.

It's not theft.

It's your stuff.

Your stuff is my stuff.

It is theft and I would have reported it.

Okay.

So I would have reported it.

Don't you dare tell me it's not.

It's theft.

Oh, fuck.

I meant to say it's not.

You just did some weird fucking voodoo on me.

The universe was like, it is.

It's theft.

Well, maybe I'm just so glowy because I've been a three liter at least a day water girly

lately.

Look at you.

I got a fake Stanley.

So I think I'm better than everyone.

You got a what?

Uh, you know those, you know those cups that like influencers carry around that look like

this?

Oh, I, I didn't know it was like a thing.

Oh, wow.

Oh, excuse me.

Stanley is like overswept the nation.

That's just the name of the brand.

I honestly did not know that.

Yeah.

Like these cups, but not, I thought you were talking about like flat Stanley.

Remember when you used to send them around the world?

Um, I do, but that's not where I was going with.

Um, yes, yes, your thoughts are valid, but no, no, like these cups with the handle with

the handle and like the skinnier bottom and like, it looks a little bit different than

this because this is, um, a targe brand.

It's cute though.

It's some reduce brand and I think it's just as good.

It is.

I mean, can you drink water out of it?

Mm hmm.

There you go.

Good as a Stanley.

I just was.

That's why I couldn't say it.

Good as a Stanley in my book.

Good as a Stanley.

There you go.

I always love, um, the, I always make fun of Ash when she gets the clanky ones.

She does.

Because there was one time when we were in a meeting and I got it was actually really

fucking embarrassing.

We hadn't even started the meeting yet.

We literally clicked onto the zoom and ash bumped into hers.

Her little canteen there and it knocked onto the table with the loudest clang I've ever

heard.

And not only that, it rolled across the table so it went clank.

Clank.

Clank.

Clank.

Clank.

Clank.

Clank.

Clank.

Clank.

Clank.

Clank.

Clank.

Clank.

Clank.

Clank.

Clank.

Clank.

Clank.

Clank.

Clank.

Clank.

Clank.

Clank.

Clank.

Clank.

Clank.

Clank.

Clank.

Clank.

Clank.

Clank.

Clank.

Clank.

Clank.

Clank.

Clank.

Clank.

Clank.

Clank.

Clank.

Clank.

Clank.

Clank.

Clank.

Exactly. Cross you right off the list.

That's who I am.

Yep, you know.

But you know what we do have that we can all agree is great?

Oh my god, we have something actually really exciting to share with you guys.

Oh my old gods in the new.

Where are you at over there?

We were traveling through different realms a minute ago actually.

We were, that's why.

She's having a minute over there.

Because guys, we got to partner with Goliath and launch a fucking board game.

We have a fucking board game.

Morbid has a fucking board game.

This is the coolest shit.

Alert, alert, alert, alert.

It's the Lunar Dial.

Yep, I'm so fucking excited about it.

So you can preorder it on Amazon on July 17th, which is super exciting and super soon.

I mean, and if you don't preorder it, do you even love us?

Do you even love us?

Are you even a weirdo?

Do you even care about the moon?

Do you?

Like, do you just want to tell the moon to fuck off?

That's what you want to tell the moon?

You don't want to travel and collect full moons.

You don't care about tides?

I don't understand why you would feel that way.

You collect like, moon stones.

You collect moon stones and yeah, like, and those are the full moons, which is so fucking cool.

It's very like, high vibration.

You guys have multiple moons?

Like, doesn't like Jupiter have multiple moons?

Yeah, Jupiter has many moons.

That's what I thought.

I think your kids.

Yeah, just ask my kids how many many moons.

Yeah.

So yeah, fucking look out for the lunar dial preorder on July 17th.

Gather up your moons and your moon stones and have a freaking ball.

Send us pictures of you playing or else you're fake.

And that's the that on that.

So next the vibe was a little off in this room earlier and the vibe has changed.

Yeah, I saw three three three.

I'm holding my rainbow obsidian.

Yeah, and I'm and I'm drinking water.

It is.

I brought my ghost chalice up with me.

I wish I could tell you that was a lie.

She's not joking.

Mikey found a ghost chalice.

It's a chalice.

It looks like a straight up chalice with Papa that I'm going to drink from at all times.

Has John seen that yet?

He sure has.

What were his thoughts?

He literally said, what's that?

And I said, that's a chalice.

And he said, why though?

And I said, why not?

And he was like, touche.

Yeah, honestly, he let it go because he was like, whatever answer I get,

I'm not going to like it.

So he just didn't ask any further.

You know what I want to tell you?

Your questions, your honor.

You know what I want to tell you?

Well, I'm happy for you.

Thank you.

And you're happy that I'm happy.

I'm happy that you're happy.

It's a great chalice.

We'll post a photo of it.

You're so weird.

I think we're going to send one to Doug Bradley.

I think we already did.

Yeah, we're going to send one to Doug Bradley because he also loves ghosts.

You know, red, ugly.

But let's get into, you know, this is all fun and games.

Let's get into the really awful thing that we're going to talk about.

Did you do that on purpose?

Fun and games?

I didn't.

But glad it happened.

But it's one of those things.

Sorry, I was stalling.

Smile because it happened.

So this case is called often referred to as the world's end murders,

which is very chilling sounding.

There's a place called World's End in Boston.

I think there you go.

There's also one in Scotland.

It's like a weird island thing.

Oh, yeah.

I mean, it's a.

Do you know about that?

I was going to say it sounds familiar.

Yeah, my friends went one time and I didn't go with them because I was being a

bitch, but I think they were being a bitch.

Yeah, odds are odds are good.

Is this the one in Scotland?

This is the one in Scotland.

OK, that's probably cooler in the United States.

So back in October of 1977, we're going to be talking about two 17 year old victims.

Christine Edie and Helen Scott.

They had met some friends and we're going to get into the whole story.

But at the time they had met some friends at the World End's pub in Edinburgh's

Old Town neighborhood.

It was basically a normal night.

It was a normal night, but they were selling celebrating something kind of

exciting in their lives.

And as closing time came around, their friends moved on to go to a party

somewhere else and Christine and Helen started chatting with two men.

All right.

They ended up leaving that night and never being seen alive again.

Oh, no.

So let's talk about who Helen and Christine are.

Helen Scott was born in 1960 to parents Margaret and Maureen Scott.

She was the fourth child in the family and that included two older half

sisters and a brother, Kevin, who was one year older or excuse me,

when you're younger after Helen was born, the whole family moved to an

Edinburgh suburb known as the commiston district and Maureen was

an engineer with British telecom and he ended up getting transferred

there for work.

That's why they ended up moving.

And according to an author and former police officer on this case, Tom

Wood, he said, quote, Helen was part of a close and loving family.

This was truly a family who loved each other.

Like this was a safe place.

This was a family who encouraged her in every way.

They wanted to nurture her big, bright personality that she had and

they really instilled a self confidence that allowed her to really

flourish in her early years in primary school and become a really

great young woman.

That's awesome.

Like this was truly one of those families that you're just like shit.

Like that they love each other.

That's a happy house.

Like they take care of each other.

That's a safe house.

That's they're doing it right.

And it was in the early mid 1960s that Helen started attending high

school and she did so at Edinburgh's Furhill High School.

I believe it's how you say it.

Okay.

The school only had about a thousand students.

Oh, wow.

School and it was a largely working class section of Edinburgh.

And like most teenagers, this is when Helen started coming into her own.

She was finding what she was interested in.

She was really developing a love of fashion clothing, you know, makeup,

music, films, like she was really establishing who she was at this

point.

And despite being slightly underage at the time, she was 17 and the

drinking age in Scotland is 18.

She was there.

They reached their mid to late teens.

Helen and her friends had really no trouble getting into the clubs and some

of the pubs in Edinburgh, especially the less vigilant ones.

Yeah.

And by their senior year, they were kind of regulars at some of them,

like the spiders web, which was a pub in the city center.

Oh, cool.

What a fun name for a pub.

Yeah, the spite.

They have a lot of cool names for pubs here.

And they're like the pubs here just look cool.

There are these like those these old streets and they just look like a pub

and like they have history.

Like you look in there and they're like, oh, that place is haunted as fuck.

Yeah.

And it's going and it's definitely not the same here.

Like historical wise, but in Boston, we have a few streets that are

super, super old, obviously.

And those the places on those streets are out there.

Like the cobblestone is still visible.

The one where we went to the other night.

Yeah, it just always has like a different vibe to it.

It's it's it's almost like you can feel the history.

Yeah, it just feels different.

Yeah.

But Helen was a great kid.

She just was like she was a good kid.

She was a good teenager, a good young woman.

During her high school year, she got a solid reputation as a very reliable

and trustworthy babysitter around her neighborhood.

Wow, good for her.

She was great with kids.

And she often babysat for her older half sisters, two children.

And because she spent so much time around kids and really, really enjoyed

it, she had an interest in pursuing a career in childcare.

Wow.

So she had officially made the decision to start night classes to start going

down that professional road in 1977.

That's awful.

Now at the time, she had just gotten a new job, but working at a kilt shop

on Princess Street in Edinburgh's like main shopping district.

Princess Street.

Yeah.

A kilt shop on Princess Street.

Dreams.

So she was celebrating getting this new job when she went out on October 15th.

Oh, she had gone with her friend, Christine Edie, who had also just got

a new job.

So they were like, hell yeah.

Working girls.

Look at us.

Now Christine Edie had also attended for Hill High School with Helen.

They met there in their first year and they immediately became great friends.

I can see why.

Yeah.

Christine was from a very similar background and she had actually been

raised by her maternal grandmother in Collington, Maine's Green Edinburgh.

And it seemed like Christine was a very normal and kind teenage girl and her

grandmother did literally everything she could to make sure that she had

everything she needed.

And that included having a very stable and very loving household and environment

to live in.

Sounds like my grandma.

Right.

Christine was known to be very confident, very kind.

She was very outgoing.

She was independent.

She could take care of herself because again, her grandmother had instilled

that in her.

Yeah.

Like she had taught and felt like she had given her that strength to be confident.

They sound like a couple of bad bees.

Right.

And she was ready to take life literally by the horns and her grandmother

supported her every step of the way.

At the time of her death, she had moved into a new apartment with some friends

actually and was really enjoying the freedom and independence that came along

with it.

Now upon graduating from Fairhill High School, Christine took a job with the

Department of Education before getting a new job that October as a typist with

a chartered accounting firm in Edinburgh.

Okay.

On the evening of October 15th, she had agreed to join Helen and a couple of

other friends, some newer friends for a pub crawl to celebrate their new jobs.

Yeah.

That's like so normal.

Yeah.

Like how many times have you gotten a text like, Hey, we're going out tonight.

Want to come?

Oh, yeah.

You head out.

This was like every other time they had gone out, but this was just they just

had something to celebrate.

Right.

So October 15th, 1977, like we said, very normal evening for them.

Helen met her friend Jack Jackie English at Jenner store, which was a few doors

down from the shop she worked on at on Princess Street.

They were also really good friends since primary school actually.

Oh, wow.

And this was something that they often did together.

So for, but for a night of celebrating a new job, it felt a little more special.

So they got together first and the two of them stopped at the Mount Royal Hotel

for a drink and then around 8 p.m.

They met Christine and their new friend, Tony Kiblin at Wee Windies, which was a

pub on the Royal Mile, which is Edinburgh's like main street, main drag.

Yeah.

Now they went to a few more pubs along the Royal Mile and made their way to high

street in the Old Town District.

Now, shockingly, Old Town District is the oldest part of Edinburgh.

I know.

That's insane.

The name doesn't give away the lead.

So it's old.

So it is just a spiderweb of streets and alleys and tall buildings.

Like, you know, old streets are always wildly put together and there's not

great lighting because of the old and Tom Wood says that there's a gloomy

effect because of this, which I think sounds great.

Among the businesses that were in the Old Town District at the time were a

number of the cities, what they described as more gothic, darker drinking

holes.

Okay.

Again.

I was going to say that sounds awesome.

Sounds right up your alley and this included what would be the girl's

final destination for the evening, which was the world's end pub on high

street.

Okay.

Again, sounds so fucking awesome.

I know.

So around 10 p.m.

They arrived at the world's end pub and they all took over a space near the back

of the bar next to a pay phone.

It was busy there that evening.

So they had to stand and wait for a table to become available and apparently

Christine and Helen got some whiskeys and apparently they were kind of at

each other a little.

Oh, really?

The more whiskeys they had.

They kind of started, it was like petty arguing.

It wasn't like they were like fighting, you know, like teenage girl shit.

Like they were just annoying each other.

I think they were just like, shut up.

Well, sometimes your best friend annoys you.

Honestly, she's not your best friend.

If you don't like both be like fuck off.

Exactly.

Now, apparently one of the biggest ones that they got into like arguments

they got into was when Helen used the pay phone to call a boy.

She liked this boy was in cold stream and Christine made a comment about her

having to call him on a pay phone because he didn't have a real phone at home.

Helen found that comment pretty classist and she didn't like it

because she likes this boy.

So she just want to hear it.

Well, don't shit on your friends.

So she ended up storming out of the pub because of it and said that she was done

for the night.

She don't she was like, fuck you, man.

Oh, I hate that this was their last night spent together.

Well, don't worry because apparently Jackie ran after her and convinced

her to stay for another drink.

And by the time she had convinced her to come back inside, I guess the rest

of the group had secured a little table and they were joined with a couple

of friends that they'd run into at the bar as well.

And in statements that were given to police in the following days, people

at the world's end that night told investigators that Helen and Christine

were quote at the heart of the crowd engaged in animated conversations

and were happy and smiling.

Okay.

So whatever they had been through in the beginning, they were at each other

a little bit.

They got over it and they were just like, fuck it.

Very classic best friend, teenage girl.

We've had a couple of whiskeys at each other's throats a little bit

and then we just go fuck it.

I'm sorry.

Yes.

Sorry.

Let's have a good night.

So they were over.

Okay.

Good.

Yeah.

I'm glad that they got over it.

I know because when I first read this, I was like, I really don't want

it to end this way and it's like, I don't want to tend at all.

But I was like, I don't want you to have that, that last like, you know,

bitterness with each other, you know.

So some of the friends began drifting away from the table as the night

went on.

And finally it ended up being back to the four core women that had started

and it was nearing last call and Jackie and Tony decided they had to go to

the restroom and when they came back, they saw that Helen and Christine

had been joined at the table by two men that they'd never seen before.

Hate, hate, hate love entirely.

Later when speaking to police, Jackie described one of the man as unremarkable,

which I was like, sick burn.

They usually are.

And he's, she said that one looked like he was in his late 20s, medium height,

quite stocky, but he had piercing brown eyes.

She said he was dressed in basically, you know, 1970s style.

He was wearing a brown and white straight bell bottom pants in a brown v-neck

shirt and a jersey, you know, like very 70s.

And the other man was described as being pretty much the same height, same age

as the first guy with short, wavy hair, a thick mustache and a fresh

complexion.

Oh, I don't know what that means.

He was drinking three liters a day.

There you go.

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Now they said it appeared that the four were hitting it off like they were

laughing with each other, having a nice conversation.

So Jackie and Tony went to the bar and chatted with some friends there

because they were like, well, I'm having a moment.

Yeah.

I think they're, they seem to be having fun.

These friends that they were chatting with at the bar invited them to

another party elsewhere.

So Jackie and Tony checked in with Christine and Helen at the table and

we're like, Hey, we got invited to this other party.

Do you guys want to come with us?

And Christine said, no, thanks.

Helen either didn't answer or Jackie didn't hear it.

Okay.

She said she didn't hear Helen answer.

Now as she left the bar, Jackie said she turned around and looked back at

her friends who were just getting another round of whiskey served to them by

the two men and she said, should they look, she looked at them and then

she turned back to Tony and off they went to the party and that was

the last time she saw them.

That's awful.

Now later that night, just after the bars were closing, apparently

two police officers were patrolling the high street area just on a normal

patrol and they spotted two women and two men leaving the world's end

after last call.

As they left the building, the police officer said that one of the girls

tripped and was actually helped to her feet by the other woman.

The officer said they could hear the two girls kind of bickering a little

bit about how they were going to get home and one of the men said,

I'll give you a ride.

So in their statement to investigators, the patrol officer said that one of

the girls sounded very uncomfortable with the idea of getting in a car

with a stranger.

Yeah.

But the other friend was convincing her and telling her everything would

be all right.

Oh, no.

Now the light was low and they weren't really close to these this group

of people to get a really good look.

So they said they couldn't say for sure that it was Helen and Christine

and these two guys, but they were pretty sure that was it.

And if it was, then these two were the last two people to see Helen and

Christine alive.

Okay.

Now on the morning of October 16th, Maureen and Margaret Scott, Helen's

parents were wreck.

Helen had not returned home the night before and she had never stayed out

all night without telling them.

Margaret literally stayed up all night just worrying about her and just

fearing for the worst.

Oh, no.

That same morning, Derek and Ruth Taylor, just a random couple left their

home to drive to East Lothian for a picnic on the beach in Long Nidgery.

I believe it is.

Romantic, you know, afterwards they were planning to walk on the beach

together like a very cute afternoon.

So off they went, they enjoyed a nice lunch together on the beach and then

they went into the, they went into their walk after that.

And after walking about a half an hour, they reached a spot called

Gosford Beach around 2 p.m.

Derek looked ahead of them down the beach and saw what he said.

He thought was a Taylor's dummy lying by the high watermark.

It's never a dummy.

Never.

It's never a mannequin.

So they walked closer to it and realized this was not a dummy.

It was a human being and it ended up being the deceased body of Christine

Edie.

Oh, no.

She was lying bound and gagged on her back.

Oh my God.

The couple ran to Gosford house, which was right on the way and it was

very close to them and called the police to report it.

A few hours later, John McKenzie was out walking his dog through a field in

Haddington, which was five or six miles from Gosford Beach.

Weird.

He also saw what he assumed was a Taylor's dummy lying in the field.

When he walked towards it, he too realized it was the dead body of a

human.

It was Helen Scott.

Oh, now Helen separated and that's what's so it's scary.

Helen's hands were tied behind her back with what he thought was a

cord and John reported.

He believed she was nude from the waist down, but someone had placed a

black woman's coat across her torso and head.

Now John McKenzie ran home to get his car and he drove to the police

station to report everything.

It actually took a little time for them to make the full identifications

for both the women, but police very quickly noted that there were

similarities between these two scenes.

It was first strange that two teenage girls were found at the same

time, essentially miles apart in very similar positions.

Yeah.

But both girls had been bound at the wrist with an item of her

their clothing and gagged with their underwear.

Oh, God, that's brutal.

They'd each been sexually assaulted, beaten and strangled.

But had two, they, the difference between the two was the method of

strangulation.

Each was unique.

Christine appeared to have been strangled manually, but Helen had

quote an imprint left by a stocking which had been tied around Helen's

neck and four bruises left by fingers under her jaw and a row of

horizontal scratches in front of and behind her ear.

Something patterned.

They said was what made this happen.

Okay.

So the news began reporting it quickly and after hearing a report on

the news about a body being found on the beach, Maureen Scott called

the police and reported his daughter missing.

He was told that they had no information on the identity, but

they would contact him as soon as they knew more.

I can't imagine hanging up that phone just having to wait and being

like, is this my child?

Is this my child on the news?

So he said later, Maureen said later on, we learned there had been another

person found and then we had a phone call from the police.

Oh, it's so awful.

And then their fear was confirmed when a few hours later, a police

officer showed up at their door carrying Helen's black coat.

Oh, God, Maureen said they brought Helen's clothing and

they told us they assumed it was her that they had been that they had

found, but she had to be identified by someone from the family.

No, thank you.

I can't imagine having to do that.

It was Maureen who had to her father had to go down and identify

her at the morgue.

As recent as last year, Detective Sergeant Douglas Kerr talked about

this case.

He was on this case and he's just talked about how much Helen's

parents reaction affected him.

He talked about how he had unfortunately delivered many death

notices in his career to loved ones.

But he said, but this case has lived with me all my life.

I can still see the look of anguish and devastation on the face of

Mr. Scott as he looked on the body of his beloved daughter about

the case.

He also later said this particular inquiry was unique in the fact

that these two lovely girls had been taken away, tied up and brutally

murdered and sexualized and discarded like a bundle of rags.

It was a horrible crime.

It was something that in all my 37 years in total in the police

service, I never came across at any other time.

Wow.

Now, identifying Christine Edie's body was to be a bit more

challenging for dirt detectives because she had moved into an

apartment, like I said a few months earlier.

So her absence wasn't like immediately discovered and reported.

Right.

She would eventually be identified by her mother Margaret Craig.

Oh, wow.

Who'd last seen her daughter the day before she went out with the

friends at the World's End Pub.

Oh, okay.

But they didn't live together.

So there wasn't an immediate like, yeah, she's not coming home.

So their autopsy showed that they had been brutalized.

Whoever did this was an animal.

They had died of forms of asphyxiation with injuries showing

that they had been throttled and choked with ligatures around

their necks.

God, according to the courier and advertiser paper, Dr.

Robert Nagel, who completed the autopsies testified later that

Christine had pinpoint hemorrhages, abrasions, scratches,

a ligature track around the neck, bruising to her mouth and

pressure marks on her upper thighs.

Her cause of death was noted as asphyxia due to strangulation

with a ligature and by gagging of the mouth.

Wow.

They were gagged with their underwear.

So she is asphyxiated by being gagged with her own underwear.

That's so, so horrific.

And Helen's injuries were much the same, but also she had an

injury that was due to a shoe stomping on the left side of

her head.

Oh my God.

And both young women had been sexually assaulted.

Oh no.

I knew you were going to say that.

Yep.

So the horrific discovery of Christine and Helen's bodies

sent shock waves through this small community.

I bet.

Because it was just outside of Edinburgh.

This again, the high school was like a thousand people.

Like this is a small place.

Yeah.

And it actually happened only a few days after another woman

had been found murdered in Fallkirk.

She was discovered in bushes with a bag over her head.

What?

And everyone was pointing out that the murders seemed similar

to the unsolved Bible John murders that had happened in

Glasgow.

Oh shit.

Yeah.

And that was only a few years earlier.

Right.

And many locals were thinking another serial killer was around.

Can you imagine just coming off of that?

Yeah.

And now this happens.

Right.

And it's unsolved at this point.

Now the deputy chief constable Tom Woods told the Guardian

because of the nature of the victims complete innocence and

because of the nature of their death and because there were

two of them, it was a shocking, shocking crime.

The sort of thing didn't happen here.

The police force was not equipped for a double homicide or

a serial killer.

Oh no.

So the investigation into both murders became under the

control of detective superintendent George MacPherson.

He quickly placed a commanding officer in East Lothian and

another in Edinburgh and investigators were now going to

retrace Christine and Helen's movements the night before at

world's end.

So they began interviewing as many patrons of the world's

end as they could just in an effort to track down leads,

eliminate potential suspects, anything they could get.

Based on their interviews, the investigators were able to make

it like a big map of the pub's interior and they use time logs

and people's memory to place each patron in their positions

at the bar that night, which is like they really went for it.

I was going to say that was smart.

Detectives quickly learned that after Jackie and Tony had left

the world's end, Christine and Helen were joined by two men who

they were also seen leaving with a little after 11 p.m.

Yep.

The descriptions that were given to them by patrons at the

world's end and Jackie and Tony, they matched pretty well.

So they were like, these are the same guys.

Right.

And apparently they were seen leaving in a dark colored car

near Gosford Beach a little before 3 30 a.m.

the day of the murder, the same description.

Oh, so they were assuming these were all the same guys.

It at the very least it was a wild coincidence.

Right.

So the fact that the girls have been seen with two men was

enough to at least entertain the idea that there were more

than one killer here.

But evidence of this is there's more compelling evidence of

this in the case.

Well, the different like methods of strangulation for one

they had been taken and killed around the same time with the

same ish methodology, but they were found miles apart.

So each was killed like we just said with a different method

of strangulation.

And then the strongest bit of evidence for the two killer

theory was the knots used to bind the girl's hands.

Oh, Christine's hands were bound with a reef knot.

Something sailors use, I guess.

Okay.

And Helen's hands were bound with a figure eight binding.

Also a forensic scientist Roger I'd later told a jury that

the knots also show different dominant hands.

Oh, that's so interesting that you can tell that just from

isn't that interesting.

Yeah, like it must be the way one thing goes over another.

Yeah, do it with that hand.

Right.

Wow, interesting.

Yeah, similar differences were found in the ligatures around

Christine and Helen's necks.

Christine's killer definitely had a familiarity with knots

and Helen's killer not super familiar.

Okay.

So Dr.

Roger I'd who we just talked about.

He was 72 and a forensic scientist.

He was also an expert on knots.

Hell yeah.

He testified also to the fact that Christine had very likely

fought hard not to be tied up and it appeared that Helen was

likely unconscious when she was tied up or threatened into

staying still.

Right.

Christine's wrists had been bound with tights like her own

tights and one hand was tied and bound first and then the

other making it look like handcuffs.

Okay.

And they said this indicated to them that she was fighting back

and made it very hard for them to bind her like tie them together

together and Helen's were tied very close together in that

figure eight thing so that her hands were clearly together.

They believe she was probably unconscious especially because

she had a shoe mark to the side of her head that she had stomped.

Right.

Now the investigation started out strong with nearly 80 full-time

officers tracking down a ton of information by witnesses, the

general public, just anybody they could talk to.

Tom Woods said there was a genuine mood of public outrage

fanned by an active and imaginative media.

There was a sense that this crime above all others was beyond

belief.

It was the stuff of American cop fiction not reality.

Yeah.

Now there was a lot of pressure as well to solve this crime as

often happens in these.

Mm hmm.

So detectives worked really hard to rule out Helen and Christine's

male friends first, but they also had to rule out the suspects from

the world's end pub as well.

Right.

Suddenly it occurred to investigators that despite the slight

differences in the description of the men seen with the two girls

all were pretty consistent with describing them as being well

dressed and having short hair.

Okay.

This was different.

Tom Woods was was quoted as saying in the late 70s this was not

typical for young men.

No, not at all.

Long hair and straggly mustaches were still the rage.

Right.

So this fact led detectives to wonder whether the suspects might be

soldiers stationed at the military garrison and nearby Edinburgh Castle.

And one of them is good at knots.

Exactly.

So a ton of time and energy was put into interviewing all the soldiers

that fit that criteria.

But unfortunately it turned up nothing.

Well, that was the thing because one had like longer wavy hair.

Yeah, a little bit longer.

Yeah.

Now while detectives in East Lothian, East Lothian, I can't say that.

I keep saying East Lothian.

Because it's like your brain is getting ready to do the Loth.

East Lothian and Edinburgh worked around the clock to interview

witnesses and get leads and crime scene technicians were also trying

to find something from the evidence they collected at both the scenes.

Just something to to spark something in someone like anything.

And at the time the Lothian and borders police had neither the resources

or the experts really the skills to properly analyze the evidence.

So experts were being borrowed from the neighboring Strathclyde police.

Okay.

The at that point, the most significant piece of forensic evidence

that they got from either scene was semen found on Helen's Scott's coat.

Oh, this would be great in the 90s.

Later, yeah, but was just cataloged in 1977.

But hey, they got it.

Good for them for cataloging.

They knew eventually this could be helpful.

Right.

Now at the time, detectives were hoping someone saw something.

Somebody had to have seen something, but the only real descriptions

they were getting was just the men in their clothing.

Right.

Which again, were unusual.

So there was that a small team of officers were dispatched at after

they checked out like the military garrison.

They went to the fashion districts in and around Edinburgh with descriptions

and artists renderings of what they were wearing, hoping that they

could find somewhere where these men bought those clothes.

Right.

Unfortunately, they weren't really getting anything by them.

By mid 1978, what had begun as a very strong investigation and they

were going full force, it was kind of eroding into a colder and colder

case losing steam, frustrated by any lack of progress.

And without literally anywhere to take this case, George MacPherson,

the superintendent made the decision to shelve the case that may.

That name sounds so familiar.

It does.

He made the decision to redirect the resources of the department.

Okay.

But as a cold case, it was going to remain open, but the investigation

would still be ongoing.

But until a new leader piece of evidence came along, they kind of

just shut it down because they can't have that many people on it.

When they just redirected the resources.

So in 1988, 10 years after the murder set occurred, holy shit, still

hadn't found who did it.

Nothing.

The case had been actually shifted to the Dalke, um, Dalkeith

criminal investigation division.

I think, um, from what we could find, uh, it looks like it was just

like because it, they had to get it off their, their stuff.

Like the reason for that was nothing more than just we had to clean house.

Okay.

Here you go.

It's your thing.

Yeah.

Maybe they had more like resources.

Maybe.

And they ended up being contacted by an inmate at Sutton prison in

Edinburgh and this inmate said that his cellmate had confessed to the

killing of Christine and Helen.

Okay.

So the supposed confessing killer actually apparently seemed to have

knowledge of the crimes that hadn't been released to the public,

including how the bodies had been positioned.

So it gave a little credibility.

Yeah.

But when questioned, the man denied ever having confessed and they

didn't really have any evidence to connect him to the crime.

So it was just dropped.

Okay.

He was like, I didn't confess to that.

All right.

Okay.

So can I come back later?

I feel like that happens in a lot of these cases and they just never

touch upon it again.

Like it's just like this inmate said that he did it and then he's like,

nah, I didn't do that.

And then he had information that we never released.

I'm like, why did he know that?

Exactly.

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So additional claims kept coming in throughout the late 1980s

and early 1990s actually.

Oh no, it's going to last that long.

Including a lot of women who called in and claimed their husbands ran out on

them just after the murders happened and they thought that they were the ones.

Wow.

None of those were elite.

Damn, it's really upsetting that that many women thought that their husband was

capable of that.

Right.

But another possibly promising lead came in early 1997.

And this happened, so that's 20 years later.

1977 is when this happened.

Holy shit.

So this is when a bunch of underworld type figures were interviewed by the

times, like gangster kind of figures, like underworlds.

You love them, I say that.

You say gangster.

But that's it.

That's what they are.

I know.

But it's just that it doesn't feel right coming from you, but I love it.

Cause they're not like that.

You call that like, like a mob type thing would be gangsters.

Like, oh no, I even when you just say gangster and you're supposed to, it's

just funny.

I don't know.

I was like, I don't, I was like, I don't understand.

I didn't want you to say gangster.

Well, no, cause it wouldn't make sense.

No, that's the yeah, but it's just funny.

But you know, so these underworld gangsters were interviewed by the times and claimed

that the killer was actually an underworld figure known to be like a sexual monster.

Yikes.

Yeah.

According to, they'll just kept that in for 20 years.

Like what the fuck is wrong with you?

They're underworld gremlins themselves.

I know, I know.

So according to one of the informants, the killer is quote, a pure beast.

Yeah.

A few years ago, he abducted the wife of a friend of mine and the beast kept her

prisoner for a month.

He raped her repeatedly through that time.

Oh my God.

Yeah.

So a police source confirmed that the man in question was indeed a person of

interest at the time of the murders actually.

Oh shit.

And he said he had been in the frame because he was a thoroughly monstrous

man at the time.

He was also known to frequent the world's end.

Unfortunately, it ended up being a dead end.

It wasn't him.

Are you kidding me?

And later they would confirm through DNA that it wasn't him.

Did they check into the guy?

I hope they took care of it.

Yeah, like I was like, does he currently still have a prisoner?

Because it's like with this one, you're like, yeah, that's awesome that it's

not him, I guess, but like that sucks that he exists.

He's still a problem.

Right.

It's like he's he's a big old problem.

So I hope they took care of that.

But while the media and the public were focused on, you know, theorizing

about underworld gangsters and deadbeat husbands, yeah, police in Dalkeith started

getting more familiar with the science of DNA at this time.

We're in the 90s.

So we mentioned earlier that among the few pieces of evidence collected

during the first investigation.

There was semen discovered on Helen Scott's clothing.

Unfortunately, in 1977, like we said, not of little use, but very smart of

them to catalog catalog it by 1997 advances in science and technology had

made it possible to not only identify a person with certainty using

their biological materials, but it also made it possible to use those

samples to prove or disprove their involvement in a crime.

Well, in 1988, a DNA profile was created from the semen sample.

But at the time, all they could get was the killer's blood type, but

they were moving in the right direction.

Okay.

Now a decade later in the 90s, there was more to be found from that sample

and more was found from that sample.

During this time, police in Dalkeith were eager to compare the new now

more complete DNA sequence in that semen to the DNA of men in the world's

end on the night of the murders.

So the DNA profile was compared to over 200 samples taken from male

patrons in the pub that night.

Not one was a match.

They also found no matches in the hundreds of swabs taken from known

predators living in the area at the time.

It wasn't even hitting on any of the 1200 suspects flagged in the

police national computer.

Are you shitting me right now?

Yeah.

This was so frustrating, but luckily it wasn't for nothing because

during this whole process, they were able to use the DNA to discover that

while Helen and Christine were likely killed by two men, one of those

men sexually assaulted both girls.

So there was likely two killers, but one man raped both of those girls.

Oh, yeah.

Which was new information and shocking information.

Yeah.

So after 18 months of backbending work trying to get this DNA to nab

their killer, they really weren't closer to finding him.

This is solved, right?

It is.

Okay.

At a press conference held in March 1999.

Stop it.

We're nearing the 2000s right now.

Dalkeith Superintendent John McGowan told reporters,

I'm disappointed for the families that we have not solved these murders.

It's a mystery and it remains a mystery.

I hope one day that another detective will solve it.

McGowan didn't know at the time, but investigators would not have to wait

for another detective to solve this case.

Now in the spring of 2001, a man named Angus Sinclair went on trial for the

1978 rape and murder of a 17 year old girl named Mali Gallacher in Glasgow.

Sinclair had a long criminal history and it dated back to the late 1950s.

Damn.

Beginning with like, you know, home invasion, housebreaking charges in his

early teens and he escalated to sexual violence and child's murder before

he even entered his 20s.

Holy shit.

Yep.

What's his name?

Angus Sinclair.

Yep.

When he was 16 years old, he lured his neighbor, Catherine, Catherine Rehill,

who was only seven years old into a stairwell where he sexually assaulted

and strangled her to death.

Oh my God.

He then called an ambulance and told them a wee girl has fallen down the stairs.

Why?

Called an ambulance.

Oh, he's a scary looking motherfucker.

Yep.

He was only given 10 years for that and served six.

What?

At the time, a psychiatrist who he was being forced to see had this to say

about him when he was 16 years old.

I do not think that any form of psychotherapy is likely to benefit

his condition and he will constitute a danger from now onwards.

He is obsessed by sex and given the minimum of opportunity.

He will repeat these offenses and they released him anyway.

What the?

So they were just like, yeah.

This psychiatrist literally said therapy won't help him.

If you let him out, he will 100% repeat these offenses.

And the justice system said, let him out.

I guess we'll see.

And then he was like, yep.

And he did the same exact thing.

The therapists that like take the time to first of all have to sit there and talk

with these people and study these people.

And then write a report like that must just feel so slapped in the face

when the legal system is like, yeah, sorry.

We're gonna fuck around and find out, I guess.

And the psychiatrist is probably like, yeah, fuck me, right?

Like I just have a degree.

I just sat with this person for hours and hours on end.

And they're probably like, why did you ask me to do this in the first place?

Like you just gave me nightmares and fucked with my mental health for no

fucking reason to totally disregard my feelings on this.

And also not for nothing.

Now that person knows me.

Like, yeah.

And like knows that I played a role in their sentence.

Yeah.

So after serving that joke of a sentence, he was out, got married to a wife, Sarah.

Might I just say he has the yellowest fingernails I've ever seen in my life.

He's fucking heinous.

Don't worry, he's dead now.

Die bitch.

He also had a son.

Oh, yeah.

Now he was thought to have also murdered Francis Barker, 37.

Hilda McCauley, 36, Agnes Cooney, 23, and Anna Kenny, 20 years old, all in

similar ways to Helen and Christine.

They just weren't able to prove it.

They were all left with ligatures of their own clothing, just like Christine

and Helen, and it was all around the same time.

And after Helen and Christine's murders, he was identified by a witness in the

rape and murder of 17 year old Mary Gallagher.

Right.

Now, after this, he suddenly started raping because after he got like a close

call with Mary Gallagher, he suddenly started raping and assaulting children

all over the area.

It's like he decided like I'm getting too close to getting caught with teenage

girls, so I'm just going to do it with children now.

Oh my God, this guy is fucking horrible.

In fact, later in 1982, when he was finally caught for the rape charges,

he said the amount of rapes he had committed was probably in the hundreds.

Jesus Christ.

What the fuck happened to this guy?

He was sentenced to life in prison in 1982 when he got caught for the rapes.

Oh, wow.

So he was in prison when they found out.

Yeah.

So he was known to police in Edinburgh at the time of Christine and Helen's

murders in 1977 when he was not in prison, obviously.

Yep.

And he was, but he was never considered a suspect.

That's interesting.

I wonder why it's wild.

In fact, despite his having provided a DNA sample in 1999 when he was arrested

for the Gallacher murder, you're shitting me.

It wasn't until 2004 that his profile was flagged as being a match.

Why did it take for the unknown DNA in the semen found in the world's

and how does that happen?

It must have just like an oversight.

Yeah, I have no idea.

I mean, that just takes forever, but and in the beginning, I'm sure it

took a lot longer.

But by the time Dal Keith detectives made the match with Angus Sinclair for

the semen found on the coats.

And now we know he's the one who raped both those girls.

Yeah.

Angus Sinclair had been tried and convicted at this point for the Gallacher

murder and was serving a life sentence at Peterhead prison.

And that's where he had been serving since he was convicted for three

rapes in the 1990s.

So this man was just, he was just his cup overflow with prison sentences with

nasty chillingly through their investigation.

Detectives began to see Sinclair developing many like they watched through

his history where he developed a lot of the elements that became evident

in the Edian Scott murders, like sexual assaults committed with a partner,

which he did beginning in the early age and his method of strangulation

and abuse was was also present in the Gallacher murder.

So he was like really honing these skills, right?

And was it the same partner the whole time?

So it was definitely this guy for at least a couple of them.

Okay.

And we'll talk about who he is.

I was going to say who the fuck is this guy that like, yeah, has no

conscious whatsoever.

So they didn't want to tip Sinclair off to their investigation or alert

the public to the suspect before they were ready to really nail him.

So Dal Keith detectives worked very quietly, but many journalists and crime

reporters had contacts within law enforcement by May of 2004.

And so the tabloids started reporting that Sinclair was the top suspect

in the world's end killings.

So hoping to get ahead of them, police held a press conference in

Edinburgh that month and they told reporters that they had been alerted

to Sinclair through the science of DNA and were looking at his possible

connection to at least seven unsolved murders in the area.

Though they didn't at that time reveal any of the names of the victims.

Like it was pretty obvious who they were talking about.

Yeah.

Following that press conference, journalists from a ton of Scottish and British

news outlets, a lot of them tabloids, put the pieces together and concluded

that Sinclair was definitely one of the two men who had killed Christine

Edie and Helen Scott.

So the other big task was now finding the identity of the second suspect.

They had a DNA profile, but nothing to compare it to.

So they looked to Sinclair and they just built the case around him looking

to his friends, his family, his associates, anybody around him to be

like, who's this person?

He obviously knows them.

Yeah.

Of course, it was tough because Sinclair had spent a lot of time in prison

since the early 80s.

So there was a little bit of a gap in his social life.

And after working closely with forensic scientists, detectives discovered

that the second semen sample had, quote, come from the same paternal

line as the five brothers of Sarah Hamilton, Angus Sinclair's wife.

So his brother-in-law.

Mm hmm.

What?

Now, like I said, they're claiming that he, that Angus was the one who

raped both girls, but they do believe that this other suspect had something

to do with it because they were able to find DNA from him.

Right.

From that point, it was simply a matter of probability because they have

narrowed it down with familiar, familial DNA of the five Hamilton

brothers, only one Gordon Hamilton was unaccounted for.

Mm hmm.

His fucking brother-in-law.

That's so twisted.

Nearly certain that their second suspect was Gordon Hamilton, his wife's

brother, detectives were pretty disappointed because they found out

that Gordon Hamilton had died in 1996.

I hope it was really fucking awful for him.

So he was never going to be held accountable for this crime.

Wow.

That's really, really fucking make me angry.

But as much as that sucked, investigators needed to confirm his

DNA was a match for the profile they had, which was a little difficult.

Hamilton's body had been cremated.

Of course.

So they could not exhume him.

Yeah.

I wonder why that was his fucking wish.

Yeah, exactly.

So detectives determined a personal possession would be probably the next

best thing they could get.

Unfortunately, they quickly found that Gordon Hamilton was a very difficult

man to pin down and even his family members didn't really have any of his

possessions or items that really could give them a biological sample.

You would want them.

After months of dead ends, Edinburgh detectives had to get kind of creative.

So they located a house Hamilton had worked on many years earlier.

And after getting permission to do a thorough search of the house from the

homeowners, investigators found a small section of like this, some kind of

stripping in the house that contained a trace of Hamilton's DNA.

Oh, shit.

And despite the relatively small size of the sample, they were able to

successfully match the sample to the DNA that they had collected in 1977,

proving conclusively that Gordon Hamilton was the second killer in the

world's end case.

Even though he was dead, they did look into his background because they

were like, what the fuck?

And they discovered he was raised in a pretty large Scottish family

where the father was very domineering and very violent.

The children all came out of the home with addiction struggles, a lot of

criminal tendencies, a product of their environment.

Yeah.

So of course, only a couple of his siblings were even willing to talk to

police.

Right.

Angus' wife, Sarah, and a younger brother were really the only ones that

were willing to talk to them.

And it was through the younger brother that investigators learned Gordon had

begun his criminal careers with Angus Sinclair, which included acts of

violence and theft occurring before and after the Edie and Scott murders.

What's crazy is this was apparently a surprise to some people who knew them.

Like they were like, wow, I didn't see that for them.

Like Scott and yeah, like they were like, wow, they were violent.

That's crazy.

And it's like they were the most violent.

Right.

Sorry.

I didn't mean Scott.

Yeah.

It's wild.

But together they were brutally violent.

They had not only committed the rape and murder of Edie Scott, but also a

home invasion robbery the year prior where they robbed and viciously beat a

man and his daughter as well as their landlord.

Holy shit.

What the fuck were they doing?

Monsters.

Were they like on shit?

No, they were just sad.

Just are evil.

They just are shit.

By the time detectives sat down to interview Angus Sinclair in October of

2004, they had assembled a pretty vivid picture of his personal and criminal

history as well as that of Gordon Hamilton.

Yeah.

In addition to the murders of Christine, Edie and Helen Scott, they were now

even more convinced that he was involved in the unsolved murders of Anna

Kenny, Matilda McCauley and Agnes Cooney and as well as tons of other assaults.

I bet.

So Sinclair denied any connection to Gordon Hamilton or the murdered girls just

spent the interview sessions trying to intimidate or like like assert dominance

over the interviewer kind of thing.

Dude, you're in prison for the rest of your life.

Shut up and tell us what happened.

And when he couldn't intimidate them, he quote according to Tom Wood, he used

all sorts of tricks to exasperate interviewing officials to the point

where they lost any chance of obtaining mean meaningful progress.

What a douchebag.

He was a steel trap.

You wouldn't say anything.

Angus Sinclair had spent nearly three decades in a long term, very serious

relationship with the justice system.

Yeah.

And he was essentially a professional criminal by the time investigators got

to him in 2004.

Right.

So of course, detectives were unsuccessful in getting any useful information

or even so much as a hint of emotion from him about it.

Fortunately, they felt they had more than enough physical evidence to get

a conviction and on January 26th, 2006, Angus Sinclair was indicted for

the murders of Christine Edie and Helen Scott.

Good.

I'm glad he had to face the justice system even because like, you know, when

they're in prison, sometimes you're like, are they gonna try it or?

Oh, no, they did.

And he entered no plea.

I didn't even know that was an option.

Yeah, you just said no.

Thank you.

The trial of Angus Sinclair for the murder of Christine and Helen began at

the High Court in Edinburgh on August 27th, 2007.

Wow.

Sinclair, of course, he said he was innocent, maintained his innocence

and lodged a special defense incriminating his brother-in-law Gordon Hamilton.

I thought you guys had no connection.

Yeah, all of a sudden he knows.

The special defense said that if any sexual relations took place,

they did so with consent.

Fuck right off.

So he was just trying to explain away the, the semen found at the scene.

He was like, we had sex consensually.

Crazy that you're in here though for a rape and murder.

That's weird.

And I love that he was like, if, if there's any, any DNA found or any of

me found there, just know that it was consensual.

It's like, oh, so you don't even know.

You're just like, I'm just covering my bases here.

Now among the witnesses heard in the first few days of the trial was Helen's

father who told the jury of being informed of his daughter's death and Jackie

Thompson, uh, who recounted the girl's night out that ended with her leaving

her two friends at the bar, apparently in the company of Sinclair and Hamilton.

Also on the witness stand was John Rafferty, who was one of the police

officers who'd seen Christine and Helen with the two suspects outside the

world's end.

According to Rafferty's testimony, he'd been, he'd been helping Christine

off the ground after she'd fallen when he noticed a shifty man watching him.

He said, I assumed he was with the girls.

So this was another police officer and he told the jury he wasn't making

any kind of eye contact.

He was looking away from me.

You get the impression when you're a police officer that some people don't

like police officers and the way this chap was looking at me.

He didn't like police officers.

Yeah, but now also on the stand was Sinclair's now former wife, Sarah.

I was hoping you were going to say that because you kept saying wife and I was

like, she legally separate.

She was like, bye bitch.

Good.

And she told the jury she married her husband in 1970 and they had a pretty

decent marriage.

She didn't have a lot of like, she was like, I wasn't abused.

It wasn't like, I did not expect you to say that.

She was like, that's why she was like, this really fucked me up.

As soon as you brought her up in my head, I was like, oh my God, I can't imagine

what that poor woman went through.

According to her, that's why she was so shocked.

Right.

She was like, I, this wasn't like, oh, I could see him doing this.

But that's the thing that happens.

Like, like BTK's wife and daughter.

Like what?

There's plenty of them.

It's so sad and it's so scary to think that that's how they walk among us.

They can just shape shift.

So scary.

I will.

But she also told the jury that her husband and brother, Jordan, Gordon would

often go on weekend fishing trips in the couple's Toyota high ace car.

And I think it's a caravanette, which I've never seen.

It's like a caravan, but like little, but a net.

Um, but he, that was believed to be the vehicle that the girls were transported

in.

Oh, wow.

But that vehicle had since been sold and scrapped.

Huh.

Imagine that.

Now the investigators found what they believed were fibers from the caravanette

upholstery on Helen Scott's coat.

They didn't have it to match, but they could at least make a, an assumption.

Right.

Um, but without an interior to match it to, it was pretty circumstantial.

If even that, now the trial was moving along as expected.

And the prosecutor, Alan McKay gave his closing remarks and it was all thrown

into turmoil on the 10th day.

The judge halted the proceedings and suddenly dismissed the charges, citing

insufficient evidence.

I'm sorry.

What?

In his statement, Judge Lord Clark said, there was no forensic evidence to

link the accused to the items used to kill the girls.

I'm not satisfied that the evidence relied on by the crown can overcome that

absence of crucial evidence.

Like what about the semen though?

Yep.

But remember, he's claiming we had consensual sex.

This motherfucker is already convicted of rape and murder.

The decision.

Outrage to the families, investigators, prosecutors.

The prosecutors really thought they had a strong case because they did.

I was just going to say because they fucking did, but what, because the jury

was barred from several key pieces of evidence, including Sinclair's DNA on

the ligature used to kill both women.

The only remaining evidence was the semen and Sinclair claimed they had

a consensual sexual encounter.

That does not prove I killed her.

Except that your DNA is on the ligature.

They even brought up, and this is like pretty graphic, but I think it's

important to show you how fucked up this is because they found evidence

in the autopsy of trauma, sexual trauma.

Absolutely.

I'm sure they had the fucking nerve in this trial to be like, well, can you

really say that that's rape or could it just be from?

Oh, they use the rough sex defense thing.

Literally anybody that uses that defense, go fuck yourself.

Yeah, truly.

Like honestly, from the bottom of my heart, go fuck yourself.

Truly.

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But yeah, they so they they barred a lot of evidence.

The only one allowed was the one that Sinclair was claiming consensual.

You can't prove that I killed her with that.

I'm unfortunately at its core.

Yeah, you can't prove that she that he killed her with with that piece

of evidence.

If we're looking at it in a legal pinpointed thing, but it's like, yeah,

then why are we barring the evidence that shows that he killed her?

That was evidence on the ligature.

That's the thing.

We're relying on one piece of evidence when we have several.

You're allowing the piece of evidence in that says he was there at the very

least and that something occurred.

What the fuck barring the piece of evidence that clearly shows he killed her.

I'm like, what did you even have to gain from dismissing this case?

If anything, it's like an outrage.

It's an outrage.

And by dismissing the charges against Sinclair, the judge basically

ensured that double jeopardy laws protected him from ever being held

responsible for the deaths of Christine Edie and Helen Scott.

Fuck this judge.

So the decision by Judge Lord Clark to return a verdict of no case to answer

outraged literally everybody.

Yeah.

But then everybody started blaming each other for the decision.

Police officers were blaming the prosecutor, the public blame the police.

No, y'all.

Everybody's blaming each other.

I'm like, blame that fucker.

That's the judge.

He made the final call and you guys all worked up there because you guys

all work together to get that evidence to get it into trial.

He's the motherfucker that says what what goes and what doesn't go.

Fuck him.

It's like you all did your job.

He didn't do it.

I'm like, do you have a daughter, sir?

Like, can you imagine if they do you have a cousin?

Do you have a woman that you love in your life?

Yep.

Can you imagine?

So following the decision by the judge, a spokesperson for the Lothian

borders police released a statement to the press and said, there have been

numerous reviews of the brutal murders of Christine Edie and Helen Scott over

the past 30 years.

And we have always taken very careful steps to review all the evidence

which have been kept since the bodies were found on October 16th, 1977.

We put together a thorough and detailed case for the crown office to take

to trial and today's announcement is disappointing.

To say the least, the prosecutor's office responded with their own

statement, essentially claiming that the DNA evidence that links Sinclair to

the ligatures was not collected or analyzed by forensic experts from the

prosecutor's office and therefore a decision was made to exclude it from

the evidence presented to the jury.

Fuck that.

They said the crown considered that there was sufficient evidence to

indicts Angus Sinclair for the appalling murders of Helen Scott and Christine

Edie.

There's no doubt that he was involved in events which preceded the deaths of

these young women.

The purpose of the prosecution was to establish whether he was criminally

involved in all trials.

The prosecutor has a duty continually to consider and review the available

evidence with a view to deciding how best to proceed with the trial.

Low copy low probability DNA evidence found on articles of underwear which

have been used to bind the victims was not led by the crown laying aside

the evidence which was consistent with sexual contact with the victims with

consensual contact with the victims.

The crown was of the view that there was sufficient evidence on which to base

a prosecution further given the basis upon which the judge approached

the evidence which was led.

We do not consider that this evidence relating as it did to items of

underwear worn by the deceased would have persuaded the judge that there

was sufficiency.

So they're basically like, yeah, sure.

Now after 30 years of investigation, dedication, grief, horror, nightmares,

the family of Helen Scott and Christine Edie were just robbed of justice

when the trial judge just dismissed the charges.

Yeah.

While the decision was heart shattering for anyone directly involved in the

case, it also brought up a lot more questions like how Sinclair's very

obvious guilt could be circumvented by illegal technicality and poor

prosecutor or prosecutorial performance.

Like what?

Like it is obvious to literally anybody that he is guilty.

Yeah.

But because of a tiny little loophole, we're just going to say fuck it

whatever.

They don't feel like it's like the prosecutor, the prosecutor, the

prosecutor's office is false.

Like that just feels like the judge was like, nah, sorry.

There was, it was loopholes and it was like little fuckups.

That's why it's like, dude, what do you have to gain?

Number one, this guy's in prison forever anyway.

So you're not fucking saving his life.

But because of this, let me let me hear it.

The then cabinet secretary for justice, Kenny McKaskill sent the case

against Sinclair to the Scottish Law Commission for review.

Let's go Scottish Law Commission.

Hell yeah.

After years of review and analysis, the commission produced tons of reports

that directly influenced the Double Jeopardy Act passed by Scottish

Parliament in 2011.

Among other things, this act allowed for the retrial of acquitted

persons under certain circumstances, particularly those relating to

decisions made in bad faith and questions of mishandled evidence.

Yeah, that one was made in bad fucking faith.

Made in bad faith.

They were like, you fucked up.

So following the passage of the Double Jeopardy Act of 2011, the

crown instructed Lothian and Borders Police to reopen the world's

end murder case.

Fuck yeah.

As if the evidence they had collected for three decades wasn't

enough, detectives discovered additional evidence that challenged

Sinclair's alibi in the previous trial, including soil samples that

placed Angus Sinclair at the sites of both murders.

Dude.

Soil samples.

They went hard.

I love that they were like, if semen samples don't work for you,

let's get some fucking soil samples.

We'll use the fucking Earth.

Maybe I'll get some air samples while I'm on it.

I will get all the elements against you.

Let's fucking go, girls.

So this, with the DNA found on the ligatures around the necks of

Christine and Helen, the soil disproved Angus Sinclair's claim

that he was fishing at the time of the death.

Yeah, go fuck yourself.

There's soil in your shoes.

It was nowhere near any murder scene.

Based on this new evidence and now a much stronger case, the crown

was granted permission to retry the case against Angus Sinclair.

I'm doing my gotcha dance.

So the second trial of Angus Sinclair began October 13th, 2014.

Oh my God.

At the High Court in Livingston.

At this time, Sinclair pleaded not guilty to two counts of murder.

According to the defense submitted by declare at Sinclair,

he was fishing on the banks of the river forth somewhere near

cock cock, Kenzie power station.

When both my girls were murdered by his brother-in-law, Gordon

Hamilton doubt it as he done in the last trial.

He again claimed that he'd had consensual sex with both girls.

Fuck right off.

Yeah, right.

This time, the prosecutor Frank Mahalland.

He built a stronger case against Sinclair that very different

from the first trial included the damning DNA evidence that

implicated Sinclair in both murders.

The jury was also shown very graphic photographs taken at

the time the bodies were discovered and were given tours of

both crime scenes and her testimony from the experts and

witnesses that it testified in the first trial too.

Wow.

And since it was seven years later after the first trial,

everyone's understanding of DNA was a little more robust.

Definitely.

In his testimony, forensic scientist Martin Fairley told the

jury that there was a one in a billion chance DNA on the coat

could have come from anyone other than the accused Angus Sinclair.

One in a billion.

That'll sell it.

Similarly, forensic scientist Geraldine Davidson, like good

good for you Geraldine forensic scientist.

Let's go girl.

Explain the process used to test the samples found on the

bindings of both young women as being quote beyond anything

you would normally do in a normal DNA test.

So she was like, we went above and beyond men.

Yeah, according to her, the findings provide extremely

strong support for the view that Gordon Hamilton and or Angus

Sinclair were involved in restraining and strangling both

Helen Scott and Christine Edie rather than an unknown and

undetected individual.

In our opinion, the findings are fitting with our range of

expectations had your Gordon Hamilton and Angus Sinclair been

in contact with most, if not all of the ligatures examined in

this case.

Wow.

On the final day of testimony, Angus Sinclair took the stand

to testify in his own defense like a little bitch Sinclair

told the jury that he and Hamilton had met the girls at

the World's End pub.

And after last call, the four drove to Sinclair Sinclair's

Toyota Cam, whatever it is, Kara Vanette to Hollywood Park

where they he had consensual sex with both girls doubted.

Then he left both young women with Hamilton and he wanted

to go fishing.

What really fishing in the middle of the fucking night.

We are decades later and you can't come up with something

better than that gone fishing on cross examination.

The prosecutor challenged this version of events saying two

17 year old girls taken somewhere they didn't want to go in

the dark in the back of a van with two strange men with sex

on the mind.

They must have been terrified.

Absolutely.

You didn't care that they wanted to go home and in response

to him Sinclair said, No, I just wanted to have sex.

Ew, go fuck yourself, dude.

He's a fucking demon.

He's filthy.

Yeah, he's literally filthy.

That's a perfect word for it.

He is a filthy fuck.

Otherwise he stuck to that previous story.

He pinned the murders on his brother-in-law who is dead and

can't face the charges and just that's it.

On November 14th, 2014, the jury deliberated for less than

two hours and came back with a verdict of guilty.

Hell yeah.

In sentence Angus Sinclair to life in prison with a minimum

of 37 years and he was already in there for life.

If you told me anything else, I would quite literally fucking

riot.

Yeah, it was a big relief to everybody.

It was a big relief to the family members of Edie and Scott,

the detectives and a statement to the press former deputy

deputy chief constable of the Lothian and borders,

police Tom Woods said when it happened in 1977,

it was like the turning of a page.

They looked like young women in their photographs,

but really they were little, little more than children.

The nature of the crime and the brutality of their deaths

meant that a real shock ran through Scotland.

People still remember it and have it as a point of reference

as each generation came up.

They became infected with the determination to see this

through the officers who have devoted themselves to the case

will see this as a debt repaid.

You know, it makes me so sad.

Her grandmother probably went to her grave and never got to

see justice.

I hope wherever she is, she knows that.

I hope she knows her granddaughter was like what

happened, you know, at least like, you know, like justice

with justice.

So Angus Sinclair was the first person to be retried

and convicted with after the passage of the double jeopardy

act.

And Frank Mahullen told reporters the day after Sinclair's

conviction, I can assure the public that there is now no

longer such a thing as a closed case in Scotland.

I love it.

Just because a murder took place many years ago,

it is no less important in the eyes of the prosecution

service than one that took place last week.

Good.

It was also the longest sentence handed out by a Scottish

court at that time.

Wow.

In early 2019, Angus Sinclair suffered a bunch of strokes.

He ended up being bedridden and incontinent until his

death on March 11th of that year.

I am dancing in these streets.

Yep.

Fuck you, Angus.

Fuck that guy.

At the time of his death, he was serving life sentences for

the murders of Christine Edie, Helen Scott and Mary Gallacher.

But police still suspect him of those other murders.

Oh, absolutely.

Now Helen's father, Moraine, did, he did pass away in 2015.

So he did, he was able to see a lot of this happen.

Right.

And he was 85.

He was 85.

But the year before his death in 2014, he said how anybody

could do that to another human being.

I sit at nights and I think, well, just what did she go

through?

How did she suffer?

I mean, it's frightening.

I just remember Helen as she was and keep wondering where

she would have been today.

Would she have been married?

Would she have had a family?

Would I have had grandchildren?

Where'd she be living?

That's so awful.

I hate that he had to spend the rest of his life thinking

things like that.

But I'm so glad they finally got you.

I mean, my God, when you got to like the part where they

didn't, I was like, is this how this is going to end?

And she gave me terracy Tabassa and this.

I could not because I mean these families and and the

detectives and investigators in the case, they all deserve

to have this fucking wrapped up in a bow at the end.

And I hate that it took that long.

I know because for those families and those detectives

because it really affected a lot of them.

They were all talking about like this killed us.

Everybody involved in it.

They all had to sit through it for decades and just have

frustration and brick wall and watch that asshole get off

the first time.

And those the first people that put it together to spend

that long doing that and then to get like like slapped in

the face. Yeah, exactly.

But luckily it does eventually have justice in the end.

Thank goodness.

And what a release one of them.

What a like awesome way to get justice to with the double

jeopardy.

I know that that's the thing.

It's so like theatrical.

The way that it all came together.

I love that it all came together that way.

Me too.

It was like Christine and Helen were like working things.

Yeah.

They were like making a happen.

Hell yeah.

I mean, they made should happen in like hell.

Yeah.

On this plane.

Exactly.

Wow.

Yeah.

That was wild.

So while and I think there was a few other cases mentioned

in this case that Angus Sinclair was associated to be a

part of and is definitely a part of and I'm going to look

into those and see if we can do another episode talking

about those ones because I want to make sure I can find

some information about them.

But I think they I was interested to see what those

were about.

Yeah, definitely.

Yeah.

Wow.

Yeah.

Well, stay tuned for that hopefully and we hope you

keep listening and we hope you keep it weird but not so

weird that this.

Yeah.

We'll be this fucking weird.

Don't keep it as weird as Angus.

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Machine-generated transcript that may contain inaccuracies.