Morbid: Episode 478: Michele Neurauter

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Hey weirdos, I'm Alina.

I'm Ash.

And this is Morbid.

And it's Morbid in the morning.

We've been doing a lot of Morbid in the afternoon.

I liked that.

Yeah, so it's kind of like the song where it's like, it's 9 in the afternoon.

You rise through the seas of the moon.

I love that.

I do know that.

You can, because you did.

So you do.

I feel like so good.

I love the emo of it all.

It's so fun.

I love it.

One time I was going to go to an emo night, but then it got ruined.

Yay.

Yay.

Also, that was Panic at the Disco, right?

I think maybe, but I'm doubting it now.

I think it is.

The line in the after.

Yeah, your eyes are the size of the moon.

You can, because you did.

So you do.

I love it.

Feeling so good.

Feel it.

Just the way that you shod.

Shod.

When it's 9 in the afternoon.

But no, it's the morning.

Here we are.

It's like 9 in the morning.

Oh, damn it.

It's not anymore.

It's not, but it would have been great if it was.

A mahjong.

We should just say it is because I don't know when this comes out,

but it'll be 9 and it'll be a 9 in the afternoon somewhere.

Thursday, like two weeks for me, I think.

I don't know.

I will never understand it.

It's I feel like those the the like door guards and labyrinths

when he's like, I don't know.

I never understood it.

That's literally my permanent state of being.

Yeah, honestly, same.

That was also a really good impression.

Thank you.

I'm like holding in a little bit of a mouth noise right now.

I just had some Alka Salter.

I was just feeling a little heart, heart burning.

Oh, you turn 27 and then you just die.

It all goes to hell.

Honestly, I woke up early and I got on my treadmill action this morning,

but then that moved things around and moves it all around.

It makes it burn.

Yeah.

And then I had like a nice like health breakfast,

but then I did see that you had mini muffins for your children.

And I said, ooh, I happen to be one of those children.

So I ate a little mini muffin and you would have thought

that I ate a blazing bowl of fire.

You would have thought, but now I had Alka Salter.

So Alka Salter for me works like right away.

That's good.

Did you have you you've had heartburn, right?

I had it when I was pregnant a little bit.

Can you have Alka Salter when you're pregnant?

I'm pretty sure you can.

I just did Tums.

Oh, see, Tums is it like re does.

Oh, yeah, it's it's a it's a it's a thing.

Yeah, but it's it wasn't bad enough when I was pregnant

that I think it bothered me.

I think I also ate bread and it helped.

Even bread does help.

And excuse me, bread, really?

Yeah, may I please have bread?

But yeah, here we are.

Here we are.

Yeah, I have a really sad case today, obviously,

because, you know, you're listening to Morbid.

Yeah, that's what you came for.

That's what you came for.

This one is crazy and I I don't want to like give too much away.

So I'm just going to kind of do like a cold start

if that's cool with you.

I'm fine with that.

All right, so we're going to be talking about the murder

of Michelle Nyrider today.

And she was previously Michelle Laundey

and she met her husband, Lloyd Nyrider in 18.

Nope, in 1989.

Oh, I was like, this is an old one.

You know, only you do those.

Yeah, they met in 1989.

OK, which, you know, that's old timey, I guess.

All right. No, I'm just kidding.

All right.

But they met when they were both in high school.

She was 18 and she was in her senior year

and Lloyd was two years younger

and they became friends over time.

And then when Michelle graduated

and she had her grad party,

that's when her parents remembered meeting Lloyd

for the first time.

And that's kind of when he started coming around more often.

OK.

Because after the party, they started hanging out more and more.

And eventually they began dating.

Their relationship kind of developed pretty quickly.

And even though Lloyd was much younger,

like given their ages,

I feel like it's kind of more pronounced.

I was going to say that phase in life.

Yeah, exactly.

But even though he was younger,

Michelle felt like he was easy to talk to.

He was smart and their conversations were never boring.

And that was something she really liked about him.

Yeah.

Which like, we love a good conversationalist.

So after Lloyd graduated from high school in 1991,

they did get married and then they went off to college.

Well, he went off to college, the same one as Michelle.

She had already gone.

She was already there.

Yes. But now he went into engineering

and Michelle ended up getting her degree in English.

And after college, they continued on the fast track.

And within a year of graduating,

Michelle was pregnant with their first kid

and then quickly got pregnant with their second child,

another daughter.

Wow.

Ultimately, they would end up having three daughters.

But their second daughter,

they named Carrie after Michelle's sister.

Oh, that's really sweet.

That's adorable.

Why didn't Alayna name one of the children, Ashley?

Sorry.

It's fine.

Can't go back.

No, I'm glad you didn't.

The name is far too common.

Now the family moved to a pretty big farmhouse

in Corning in upstate New York.

Lloyd got a job working as an engineer

with Corning and coordinated.

Good job.

Good job.

Now, the move kind of seemed like a step

in the right direction for the family.

But also at the same time, the stress of moving

and kind of like starting a new job and everything

started to bring out some of Lloyd's,

you could say, less attractive character traits.

Uh-oh.

Michelle's mother, Jeannie,

had seen some of those qualities all along, though.

She told reporters he was arrogant from the beginning.

Oh.

Yeah, she never really liked Lloyd.

She wasn't into it.

She wasn't into it.

And she also was just like,

I don't really understand like what my daughter sees

in this guy, which that's never good.

No.

But because she and her husband

really respected their daughter,

they kept their thoughts to themselves.

Yeah.

And the thing was they weren't the only people

who felt like this.

So it wasn't like, well, their standards are just too high.

It was no other people felt this way too.

Michelle's sister, Carrie,

the one that her daughter was named after,

she started noticing things about Lloyd

that made her a little bit nervous.

Like he had very, very high,

very unreasonable expectations of his family.

She said he would snap his fingers and they'd line up

and they would stand there like little soldiers.

Ooh.

I hate that.

I feel, have you ever seen a family like that though?

And you're like, ooh.

Yeah, and you're just like, I don't know about this.

Like that makes me nervous.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Because that's not, to me,

like this, the way it's being described here,

and I'm just saying it's just my opinion.

That's my opinion.

That this feels more like a fear-based

and not-respect-based kind of thing.

Yes, I definitely think so.

It's not just respect.

I wanna listen to what you have to say.

It's like, I'm scared, not to.

And I don't want my kids to be scared of me.

No, you don't want them to be scared of you.

I actually remember one of my first business classes.

I had this wicked good professor,

I forget his name though,

but he said, he was talking about like

being in a position of power

and he was like, had a whole discussion with us of,

would you rather be feared or respected?

And a lot of people thought that you had to be feared.

To be respected.

And I was like, I don't think so.

That's, it's not respect that comes out of fear.

It's just fear.

Those are two very different things in my opinion at least.

But to people a little more removed,

like in the outside world,

Lloyd actually seemed like he was a doting father to them,

the people who were removed.

They saw the dad that, you know,

brought his kids to ballet class,

made sure they were all put together, you know?

But the cracks would be apparent to anybody

who was paying close enough attention to see them.

A family friend, Mina Raj remembered,

there were times when I'd call my mom and tell her

that I was worried about,

that I was worried about how strict

of a disciplinarian he was.

It was sort of like, you never knew when he would snap.

And if he decided he was mad at one of them,

he would call them over, yell front and center.

Oh, come on, these are little babes.

Dude, you're not, this isn't the army.

That's the thing, I'm like,

you think you're in like full metal jacket,

like get out of here, it's too much.

So by the early to mid 2000s,

the Nye writers facade of a happy family

was definitely starting to slip.

Lloyd was still working at Corning,

but his job was about to make some cuts

because this was right around the time of the market crash.

So the economy was suffering.

And he probably kind of resented the fact

that while his career was getting a little rockier,

Michelle's career had actually taken off.

Because once all three girls were in school,

Michelle decided that she wanted to go back to school

and pursue a graduate degree.

Wow.

And actually eventually she took a job teaching English

at one of the local colleges.

And then a few years after that,

she had this blog called The Professional Family Manager.

Oh.

And her blog was gaining popularity and took off.

Oh, wow.

It actually got nominated for a national award

from Nickelodeon.

Oh, wow.

Yeah, isn't that crazy?

That's crazy.

So she was doing really, really well.

Yeah.

And her success only seemed to add

to the difficulty between her and Lloyd.

Oh, is he one of those that can't handle it?

That's the thing.

It's like, I feel like if your partner

isn't celebrating your success with you.

That's a problem.

Something's wrong.

That's a big problem.

In my opinion.

Yeah.

Because I can't imagine coming home to Drew

and telling him something exciting that happened

and him being like jealous or like, yeah,

being like annoyed by that.

Yeah, no, that's not good.

Like you should be able to celebrate each other

when one of you rises, you should be celebrating.

Exactly.

But that was not the case here.

Michelle's mom said that Lloyd would quote,

often put her down with a smile on his face.

Ooh, yeah.

So.

I do not like Lloyd.

None of us do.

Now, if Michelle's parents were concerned,

which it very much sounds like they were,

they must have been really, really worried

when Michelle slowly started cutting them out.

She was kind of backing away from them.

And by 2007, her relationship with them was non-existent.

Oh, no.

So the mom figured that, you know,

Lloyd probably had something to do

with the daughter cutting ties with the family,

but of course she couldn't really know for sure.

Yeah.

In 2020, she told CBS News,

I think that he threatened her either to harm the children

or to harm her.

Oh, geez.

And Michelle's friend, Cynthia Raj,

would later confirm that Jeannie's suspicions

of Lloyd were actually spot on.

She reiterated a conversation that she had with Michelle,

where Michelle told her it was Lloyd

that made me cut off contact with them.

And then Cynthia elaborated,

he didn't want her to have a place to go

if she wanted to leave.

Oh my God.

Yeah, that's really bad.

Control, control, control.

So in 2008, he did end up losing his job at Corning.

And a few months later,

he ended up getting a different job offer

from a company over in New Jersey.

So if he took that job,

it would mean that they would have a lot more time apart,

which would be good.

Which would be good, which is sad,

because usually when you have a family,

the dynamic is like,

no, we don't want mom or dad to take this job far away

and be away from us.

But this is like, no go.

Kind of seemed that way.

Now, so the separation to Michelle,

she was like, I think this is a good idea.

And I think she was kind of just desperate

for time by herself to thrive.

Because she was thriving,

but she was probably quietly thriving.

Exactly, and being tampered down all the time.

So it's like.

Yeah, like not wanting to piss him off.

So I think she was like,

you know what, fucking go for it.

So he took the job.

And the separation kind of proved itself

to be something Lloyd wanted to make permanent.

After years of being separated in 2013,

he ended up filing for divorce.

Wow, I didn't see that coming.

That's the thing.

I don't think a lot of people saw that coming.

I think they figured, you know,

maybe Michelle will get to that point eventually.

That's the thing, I would have saw that.

But nobody saw it coming from Lloyd.

No.

And especially not Michelle.

She obviously knew that their marriage

wasn't the happiest marriage in the world.

Yeah.

But she was shocked.

And her attorney, Susan Betts, Betts Gina Beer said,

I know I put a little phonetic in there for myself.

She said, Michelle was surprised

that he had filed for divorce.

She had done everything she thought she could to do

to make him happy and the family happy.

Which is sad.

That is so sad.

But apparently in the years

that he and Michelle spent away from one another,

Lloyd decided he really didn't have a lot of use

for her anymore.

But what he did want was sole custody

of their three daughters.

And Michelle's attorney explained

just how determined he was to get what he wanted.

This is insane.

The attorney said Lloyd was relentless

in using the legal system to harass Michelle.

It just never ended.

There were 26 separate sets of filings post-divorce.

Are you kidding me?

26.

What?

Isn't that insane?

Wow.

So obviously during and after the divorce,

things became very bitter between them.

But things were more contentious than usual

with these court dates going back and forth.

And in his court filings,

Lloyd accused Michelle of anything and everything

he thought would get him full custody,

especially because he didn't want to pay child support

because he was in a lot of debt.

Thank God.

Now Michelle, on the other hand,

she accused him of trying to turn their kids against her.

So not long after the divorce,

she ended up selling their farmhouse,

the family house that they lived in together.

And she moved into a smaller house

and still in the same town of Corning.

And their oldest daughter actually ended up moving

to New Jersey to live with Lloyd and Carrie,

and then the youngest daughter stayed with Michelle.

So Michelle has the middle child and the youngest child,

and Lloyd has the oldest child.

Okay.

Okay.

Hey, weirdos.

Before we get back to our regularly scheduled programming,

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The newest season covers the story of Mike Williams.

It was Mike's sixth wedding anniversary

when he set off on a hunting trip

into the gator infested swamps of North Florida.

He figured he'd be back in time

to take his wife Denise out to celebrate,

but he didn't come back.

Friends and loved ones feared he met his fate

through bad luck in a group of hungry alligators,

leaving his young family behind.

Except that's not what happened at all.

And after 17 years, a kidnapping,

and the uncovering of a secret love triangle,

the truth would finally be revealed.

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So the divorce and the fighting between Michelle and Lloyd

obviously took a heavy toll on all of their kids.

All of these girls are old enough to know what's going on.

Of course.

And no matter what.

Even if they're not, our bodies pick up on that, you know?

Yeah.

But everything seemed to show and carry

the most of all the middle child.

She was in her junior year of high school

when her parents divorced.

So she was at the age where kids usually distanced

themselves from their parents anyway.

But now she seemed to be avoiding her mom

even more than usual.

A family friend, Rose Colucci, how I think is how you say it?

She said of their relationship,

it got more strained as she approached her senior year.

Eek.

Yeah.

So by mid-2017, after just years and years and years

of bitter custody fights, harassment, abuse,

the whole nine, Michelle was shocked

when she had her parents divorced.

Michelle was shocked when she had a court date with Lloyd

and he was supposed to show up.

And this court date was going to be addressing custody

of their youngest daughter.

And he just didn't show up.

What?

And she was like, we've been doing this for like years.

Yeah.

It sounds like almost 10 years.

Like how are you not?

They divorced in 2013.

Now it's 2017.

That's four years.

Four years of this stuff.

And then all of a sudden he just doesn't show up.

Like what?

So weird.

So she texted her lawyer saying, I'm in shock.

Lloyd did not show up for the appearance

for his petition for sole custody.

He did not withdraw.

He did not ask for an adjournment.

He did not answer the court's phone calls, emails, nothing.

Huh.

It seemed like after all those years,

he had just given up and walked away.

But Michelle's attorney was like freaked out by that.

She was like, something's not right.

You don't fight that long and then just give up.

No.

And the attorney said, it was very unusual.

It was unthinkable really.

Yeah, that would concern me a lot.

Me too.

Now since he didn't show up, the case obviously was dismissed,

which left the youngest daughter in Michelle's custody.

So Michelle was relieved that this seemed to mean

that they were putting their worst years behind them.

But at the same time, she knew who she was dealing with.

Yeah, Lloyd's not going to let this go.

No, she knew that he wasn't the type to back down

until he got literally everything he thought he was owed.

So what I think is that she probably was relieved

and kind of trying to put the worry in the back of her mind

and just celebrate a small win.

Yeah.

So by the summer of 2017,

Carrie was a sophomore at the Rochester Institute of Technology

and she was living off campus.

So that meant the youngest daughter

was the only one still home with Michelle.

Now, on the afternoon of August 28th, 2017,

a family friend came by the house

to pick up that youngest daughter for swim practice.

And almost immediately this friend got the feeling

that something was very wrong.

He knocked on the door to let Michelle and her daughter

know that he was there, but nobody was coming to answer.

But even though through the window,

he saw what looked like an adult standing in the stairway.

Huh.

And the thing was Michelle and her daughter,

like either one of them,

usually came to the door pretty quickly.

So the fact that somebody was just standing there

on the stairs completely motionless

and like not moving and coming to the door or anything

was alarming.

So he was freaked out and he was like,

I feel like I should call 911.

Like I don't know what's going on here.

Yeah.

So he did call 911.

He said, got something strange happening

at our friend's house.

I thought I saw the mother standing in the stairway,

but she's motionless.

Ooh, that's weird.

Very weird.

So the Cornish police sergeant, John McDivitt,

he was the first to arrive at the scene.

And he also looked through the little pane of glass

in the front door and he could see

what the family friend had described to 911.

He said, I could see a female laying at the bottom

of the stairs.

And he also said he felt like something

wasn't quite right there.

Well, yeah.

If somebody's laying at the bottom of the stairs,

that's probably not great.

Definitely not good.

So he entered the house and he was immediately

greeted by the family dog who came running

when the door was open.

But when McDivitt announced his presence,

nobody answered.

And the figure at the bottom of the stairs

did not move.

Oh, yeah.

He said, as I got closer,

I could see there was a rope around her neck.

There was no pulse.

She was cold and stiff to the touch.

Oh, my God.

It was Michelle.

Oh.

Now, as far as he could tell in that moment,

it looked like Michelle Nyreider had hanged herself

from a rope tied to the banister at the top of the stairs.

Oh, my God.

But more importantly, in that moment, at least,

was the fact that her daughter was supposed to be home,

the 14-year-old daughter,

but now she was nowhere to be found.

Oh, no.

So they're freaking out.

Yeah.

So they quickly searched the house.

There's no child in sight.

There's also no suicide note, which they thought was bizarre.

So while crime scene technicians processed the scene at the house,

the police began a search in the area

for the youngest Nyreider girl.

Now, after a few hours had gone by,

investigators got a call from Carrie, the middle daughter.

And she said she just heard the news about her mom

and she wanted to let authorities know

that actually she had her younger sister.

The younger sister was with her in Rochester.

Okay.

Almost 100 miles away from Corning.

Okay.

And this family friend remembers picking up the youngest daughter

for swim practice.

Yeah.

So why all of a sudden is she 100 miles away?

So that's pretty much what investigators asked.

And through tears, Carrie explained why she had her sister.

According to her, she had gone home to Corning

on the afternoon of the 28th.

She wanted to spend one last night with her mom

before her semester started.

She told detectives when I got there,

my mom started freaking out.

And she said her mom was quote unquote raged at her

because she felt like Carrie was taking Lloyd's side

in the custody hearings.

Okay.

So Carrie explained that as the argument went on and on,

her mom was getting more and more irrational.

She said she started freaking out and screaming

and she woke my little sister up.

So I guess eventually the fight escalated to the point

where out of concern for the younger daughter,

Carrie said she took her out of the house

and they went back to Rochester for the night.

Okay.

So, you know, deescalating the situation.

Yeah, that's all sad.

All of this is sad.

Exactly.

So investigators are hearing this and they're like,

okay, okay.

And at first glance, Michelle's death kind of appeared

to investigators like it really could just be suicide.

But friends and family were like, there's no way.

Like they vehemently disagreed with that.

For one thing, putting the problems with Lloyd

to the side for a second, Michelle's personal life

and her career were going extremely, extremely well.

Her friend Cynthia said she had a great job

and it was not the place in her life where she would have

committed suicide after all the really difficult years

she'd been through.

And then her divorce lawyer agreed and said,

I never believed it.

She was determined to have a successful life and she did.

That's why it was so shocking to me when you said that.

I was like, what?

Yeah, it seemed like nothing here.

I mean, not that we, I have a full picture of her

every day today, but it's like,

it seemed very sudden and out of nowhere.

Right.

Especially when realistically she would be celebrating

the fact that after all these years of fighting

that he had given up.

He'd given up.

Seemed exactly.

You know, I'm sure she knew he hadn't.

And that is like a factor there that it's like,

did you know that it was going to be something awful

was going to come from this?

Like he wasn't going to let it lie.

Right.

But the timing just seemed weird to everybody.

It doesn't seem like, like it seems like she would fight

for her daughters.

Yeah.

And she wouldn't just give up like that either.

Right.

Exactly.

Exactly.

So the, and that's the thing.

Other people who knew Michelle went a step further

and they said, not only did they think that Michelle

would not have ended her own life,

but that if it was murder, they needed to look at Lloyd.

Yeah.

They were like, before you sign that dotted line

and decide like how she went out of here.

You need to look at Lloyd.

I'm glad they said that.

That was like everybody was like, uh-uh.

Yeah.

Like no.

Yeah.

And that same family friend that I mentioned earlier,

Rose Coluccio, I want to say it is.

She told Dateline, when asked at the scene what I thought

my answer was, I think he did it.

Wow.

So that tells you something.

That's the thing.

When people are just off the bat,

like I don't know anyone in my life.

No.

And I feel very lucky that I don't know anyone in my life

that if they went, they suddenly died that I would be like,

you got to look at this person.

Like I don't know anyone like that.

No, me either.

And it's like, so if I knew somebody that the first thought

in my mind was it's probably them.

Right.

It's probably them.

And imagine having that level of concern for like a family friend

or like a relative.

Like that's awful.

And then to see it like this and be like,

it ended how I was worried it was going to end.

Right.

I can't imagine.

So that, here's the thing.

Obviously these were Michelle's friends and family speaking

and obviously it's common for those people

to be shocked when their friend or loved one maybe takes

their own life.

Absolutely.

And it's also pretty common that they would reject the idea

entirely.

Of course.

No, they would never be the person to do that or, you know,

because it usually does come seemingly out of nowhere to everyone

like around you, you know, like it's not always very obvious.

But in this case, it wasn't just the shock of unexpectedly

losing Michelle.

There was, as we all know at this point,

a very long history of domestic abuse and violence.

In the family.

Yep.

That friends and family were well aware of and very worried

about.

Yeah.

In fact, when Jeannie made it to Corning,

that's Michelle's mother after her daughter's death and she

started going through Michelle's personal things,

she started to get an even clearer picture of how dysfunctional

Michelle and Lloyd's marriage had been.

She said, I started finding court documents and I started

finding screenshots of texts.

She was just constantly abused, emotionally abused.

That's so sad.

It is.

Now, when that was brought to the attention of the investigators

looking into Michelle's death, coupled with some bizarre findings

in the autopsy, they were starting to think that maybe her

friends and family could be onto something here because she

might have been found in a manner that indicated suicide.

But what struck the corner as very strange was when he discovered

a U shaped mark around her chin that suicide by hanging just

couldn't account for.

Because the mark on her chin actually unsettled the police

chief, Jeff Spalding, so much that he didn't want the label on

the death to be suicide.

Wow.

He was worried that it was going to be written as suicide and

something about this was telling him that it wasn't.

Oh, jeez.

He said, it appeared as though somebody had gone behind and

thrown a rope over the neck and pulled back and down, causing

the mark.

Oh, my God.

Yeah.

And he said he hoped that the autopsy would confirm their

suspicions.

But unfortunately, when the results came back, the cause of

death was listed as undecided, undetermined causation.

So now they had to go back to the drawing board.

And once there, there was Carrie's story to consider next

to the evidence.

She said that her and her mom had gotten into this big fight the

night that she died.

Yeah.

And she claimed it was because Michelle thought that Carrie was

supporting her father over her.

Now, investigators realized, you know, of course, it's possible

that Michelle was upset about this.

But again, Lloyd had just failed to show up to the court and the

case was dismissed.

So it kind of seemed like this huge stressor in her life was

resolved.

Yeah.

And under those circumstances, it didn't really seem like she'd

been raged at Carrie at that point, like to get in such a big

fight over this.

No, it doesn't.

It doesn't add up.

No.

And they also were like, I don't really think she would be

super hopeless about the situation either.

So now they were leaning more toward the possibility that Michelle

was murdered.

And even though the evidence was very, very circumstantial at

that point, it did strongly suggest that her ex-husband, Lloyd,

was worth looking into.

But there was a problem with the theory that he had something to do

with it.

He had a pretty strong alibi.

When police discovered Michelle's body, he was nearly 3,000 miles away

at a job interview in California.

Oh.

However, with that being said, he had been in New York around the

time that Michelle had been killed.

Oh.

He just got to New York after, got to California after that.

So he just got there quick.

Uh-huh.

Okay.

According to Kerry, her father had helped her move into her new

apartment on August 26th, and then he stayed in a hotel room that

night and left for California on the 27th and had been there ever

since.

Okay.

But actually, when investigators called to tell him about Michelle,

he was still in California.

And once he was informed that she had died, he flew right back to

New York.

Huh.

And the first thing he did was go to the, I think it's

Steuben County Family Court to quote, turn off his child support and

maintenance payments.

Yeah.

You got to do that real quick.

That was the first thing he did.

It's like, do you want to check in with any of your children?

Yeah.

Like their mother was just, I mean, just died.

Yeah.

Like what?

No.

Now, as he was leaving that courthouse that day, he ran into

Corning Police Detective James Wolpe.

And James was like, hey, like you want to chat?

Weirdly, Lloyd seemed pretty eager to talk about Michelle's death.

Really?

Mm-hmm.

They sat down in Detective Wolpe's car for what turned out to be a

actually pretty lengthy interview.

And Lloyd, he gave the same alibi that his daughter had given them a

couple of days earlier.

And he, you know, went on to say that he checked into the motel after

helping Carrie move.

He said they had dinner together.

And after Carrie left, he went to bed.

And then he said the next morning he met Carrie and his younger

daughter around 7 a.m. for breakfast.

Then he left the hotel and was off to California.

OK.

So Wolpe was like, OK.

And then they went back to the station and he decided to check

into that even further.

I'm glad.

And data from his cell phone actually seemed to corroborate the

story that he had told investigators.

And Carrie had told investigators.

But the security footage from the hotel told a very different story.

Uh-oh.

When investigators looked at the footage.

Those darn cameras.

Those freaking cameras.

Get you every time.

It's like Jesus Christ people look around.

Yeah.

I mean, or don't.

Don't, honestly.

But so they looked at the footage and they saw Carrie and Lloyd get to the

hotel the evening after she moved into her apartment.

But when he walks her to her car later that night, he can clearly be seen

getting into the car and leaving with her.

When he said he went to bed and then they met up for breakfast the next

morning.

Guy.

Nope.

Come on.

He didn't appear on camera again until the next morning.

And that was when he was supposed to be getting breakfast with his kids.

And the police chief there, Jeff Spalding pointed out, he still appears

to be wearing the same clothes that he had on the night before.

Lloyd's story was that he stayed at the hotel room all night.

The video evidence is saying no.

He didn't.

The video evidence is saying no.

That is incorrect.

So now the police had evidence that he lied to them about his alibi and

they were like, well, shit, maybe he really did have something to do with

this after all.

So combined with the physical evidence documented during the autopsy,

everything investigators were learning about Lloyd indicated that yeah,

he probably had something to do with this.

Yeah.

But they had to identify his motive, which was pretty easy.

Yeah.

The district attorney's office did some digging and they found out that he was

quote, not in a good financial place.

Hmm.

According to Baker, Lloyd had over $100,000 in credit card debt.

Oh, damn.

And he was paying his wife almost $6,000 a month.

Wow.

Like child support.

Yeah.

$100,000 in credit card debt.

Like, how do you that much credit card debt?

Yeah.

That's a lot.

How do they even let you spend that much?

I was going to say, how did he even get that much?

You had to have been across multiple accounts.

It always had to have been, yeah.

My God.

I remember the first credit card I got when I was like 18.

I fucking maxed it out at like, I think it was probably like $3,000.

Oh, yeah.

And it took me years to pay it back.

Oh, yeah.

$100,000?

It destroys you.

$100,000?

Like, you're done.

I was like, damn, what was your credit score?

Because mine was really bad back then.

It's like a 200.

Oh my God.

That makes me nauseous.

Huh.

But that wasn't it.

Baker was also, who worked for the DAA's office, was also able to find out that Lloyd had already tried to collect Michelle's $260,000 life insurance policy, which clearly would have taken care of his debt.

I am so glad that these idiots are so fucking stupid.

Me too.

Thank goodness.

Me too.

Are you fucking kidding me, my guy?

Dude, this is, this is like Jesus.

Right out there.

Like you have this much debt.

Oh my God.

You already tried to, first of all, you immediately shut off all the payments.

Why did you think that you were going to get her fucking life insurance?

You've been divorced for four years.

Yeah.

Like what?

But based on what they'd learned so far, the district attorney's office, they believed that Lloyd killed Michelle and Carrie had either helped him or was helping him.

Cover it up.

Shut up.

Yeah.

They thought she had something to do with it.

Mm hmm.

Fuck.

They couldn't prove it quite yet, but they were like, the way that she was covering for him, they were like, she either knows something about this or she participated.

Oh no.

Oh, oh no.

I hate that.

Yeah.

Oh man.

So now they had a suspect with the means, the motive and the opportunity to commit Michelle's murder.

Now investigators were, they were able to get a warrant and they put wiretaps on Lloyd and Carrie's phones to monitor those conversations.

But it was November 2017 when they started monitoring those conversations.

And by that point, almost two months had gone by since Michelle had been killed.

So Carrie and Lloyd weren't really talking about Michelle that much anymore.

Yeah.

Which they got.

I'm like, Dan, that was your whole ass mom.

Yeah, but like, wow, apparently they got what they needed out of the situation.

Yeah.

So Jeff Spalding, police chief said, in order to kind of refresh things, we did what was called tickle the wire.

That's precious.

Which I fucking love.

Tickle the wire?

Tickle the wire.

I didn't know that was a term.

Nor did I.

Apparently it's a tactic that police will use to make criminals think that they're under like super intense scrutiny.

So it makes them talk about their crime more.

Because they're like freaked out.

Exactly.

So what they did was, in late November, they had Detective Volpe there call Carrie and imply.

Because you can imply.

That's pretty fucking smart.

Right?

They were like, we found some new information and we're going to need to talk to you.

Like you're going to have to come down.

So Carrie took the bait and as soon as she got off with the detective, she called her dad and let him know that they were calling her back in.

And Lloyd was like, it's probably just a formality.

Like there's nothing to worry about.

But he still told her, quote, I don't think I want you talking to them.

And then he went on to tell Carrie that she needed to put the police off as long as possible.

He said, tell them I'm sorry, I got a counseling appointment back in New Jersey tonight.

And like told her to make it seem like she was really going through it.

That's awful.

And then asked her, could you cry?

And she said, I might.

Wow.

Yeah.

So that was pretty incriminating.

This is some cold shit.

Cold from her ex-husband and her daughter.

Yeah.

Like, damn.

This is a daughter talking to her father about her mom.

Yeah, it sure is.

And he's like, can you cry like manipulating her into like, fuck.

And that's the thing.

She's like a fucking teenager.

Well, this is a father.

This is her dad.

Manipulating their child.

Wait until you hear what really happened.

Like this is really just, this is cold.

This guy.

This is sinister.

Very sinister.

This guy is the scum of the earth.

Yeah, truly.

And apparently, we'll get there.

Really don't worry about it.

So the conversation between Carrie and Lloyd, very much confirmed investigator suspicions.

But at the same time, it wasn't completely incriminating.

It was sinister vibes, but it was.

That's what they said.

It was sinister vibes.

They were like, it's giving sinister vibes, but like it's not incriminating.

But they honestly didn't say anything like, wow, I can't believe we got away with this.

You know, like it wasn't right.

It wasn't right out there.

Just anybody looking at it would be like, yeah, exactly.

But you can't just go off of.

Yeah.

You can't go off of a vibe.

No, unfortunately you can't.

I go off of a vibe all the time.

But I think like when it comes to the law, they have this whole thing against them.

Yeah, that's the thing.

Everybody listening, live your life off vibes if you want to.

Oh, please do.

Good vibes only, please.

Chill vibes only.

But yeah, legally we cannot.

Yeah, no.

And the other thing is legally you cannot get a search warrant off of vibes.

Yeah, you can't.

So one of the biggest problems that the district attorney's office was facing was the undetermined cause of death on Michelle's autopsy.

So they gathered up all the forensic evidence and all the autopsy reports and they took everything to a private forensic pathologist for a second opinion.

Unfortunately, Michelle had been cremated.

Oh, no.

So there was no body to examine.

Damn it.

But this private pathologist also noted the mark on Michelle's chin and he noted that particular hemorrhaging was there and was very suspicious.

Uh-huh.

And after looking over some more papers, he looked up at the detectives and the district attorney and said, this is a homicide.

Hell yeah, he knew.

He knew.

Good job.

So on January 24th, 2018, five months after Michelle had been murdered, investigators visited Lloyd at his office in New Jersey and another set of officers went to see Carrie at her apartment in Rochester.

The one that her dad had quote unquote helped her move into.

So confronted with all the evidence that they had at this point, Lloyd still maintained that he was at his hotel in Rochester all night and he said, I'll take a polygraph test.

I'll take one right now, like let's go.

Cool.

So they weren't very surprised by his confidence because they knew between the two of them, if somebody was going to crack, it was going to be Carrie.

Of course, she's a child.

And they were right.

Yeah.

Once Carrie was brought into the police station for questioning, she told them everything.

Which tells you that she did not want a part of this.

Exactly.

Like she had done her whole life, it sounds.

She snapped to attention front and center when he told her to.

Exactly.

Because she was scared of him and wanted to make her dad happy to avoid whatever happened if he wasn't happy.

This isn't a grown ass adult.

This is a child who is being manipulated by their parents.

Exactly.

It's really sad.

Against their other parent, which is some of the worst kind of manipulation you can imagine.

Well, and wait until you hear like how he manipulated her to do this.

It's terrible.

I can't imagine being in the position that Carrie was in.

So according to Carrie, she and her father returned to Corning after they did move into her apartment that afternoon.

And she let her father in the house.

And Michelle was standing at the top of the stairs when they walked in into Michelle's house.

And as soon as Michelle saw Lloyd, she started yelling and was like, why the fuck are you here?

So they started arguing and they eventually made it to Michelle's bedroom to argue privately.

And that's where the shouting continued.

Carrie said suddenly everything went silent.

And at first she told detective she didn't know why her mom had suddenly gone silent.

But eventually she admitted it was because her mom was dead.

So she told investigators she saw her mom dead laying on the bedroom floor.

So he just killed her in their bedroom and her bedroom?

Yep.

While their child's?

Children.

Children.

Oh God, because the younger one, the 14 year old was there.

Yep.

Exactly.

Oh no.

And she had no idea what was going on.

So Carrie knew that was why her dad was in the house in the first place.

Because he had actually come to her a week before this and told her that he couldn't afford the monthly support that he had to pay Michelle.

And he was in so much debt that the only way he saw out was killing himself.

He's a fucking monster.

You can't handle it, dude.

Figure the fuck out.

Your kids should have nothing to do with your child support payments.

You go to your child and say, I can't afford to pay for you, so I'm going to kick it.

Yeah.

What the fuck?

No, anybody who goes to their kids and talks about custody issues and shit and like child support, that's an asshole move.

And taking your own life?

Like what the fuck?

That's a piece of shit move.

And so knowing that Carrie's relationship with her mom was really strained at that point, he knew what he was doing.

He knew Carrie would choose him over the mom, over Michelle.

So he casually suggested an alternative plan.

He said, well, we could also kill your mother.

Jesus.

And he said all his financial issues would be solved.

So she literally sat there, Carrie, in the detective's interview room and said, I had to choose.

I'm horrified.

She was faced with that decision.

And what these children at 19 years old.

Imagine what they dealt with as little kids.

No, because if your father comes to you and is like, hey, either I'm going to kill myself.

Oh, well, I'm not really actually going to do that.

I never had any intention of doing that.

But why don't we just kill your mom?

But we could kill your mom.

Because I can't afford the child support for you.

Like, what?

Like, what?

It's gross.

It's like your brain can't even come up with that on its own.

So Carrie went on to explain the rest of the night telling investigators that Lloyd and Michelle's arguing eventually woke up her younger sister who was at the house, the 14 year old.

So Carrie took her outside and put her into her car and she just told her to wait.

These poor kids.

She said that she then went back inside and when she got there, her mom was dead.

So she and her sister went back to Rochester and she said they left Lloyd in Corning to stage the scene to look like a suicide.

Now, based on the confession, she was arrested on second degree murder charges for the murder of her mother.

Yeah, she knew about it ahead of time.

And she helped orchestra it.

Like we talked about it, this is a father manipulating her daughter.

So it's very fucked up in every way imaginable.

But she played a role.

You helped plan it.

And you were there.

The law's pretty black and white, unfortunately, or maybe fortunately.

It's not your responsibility to stop it physically.

I mean, this is a grown man, you're a child, this is your father, but you call the police.

I mean, she let him in the house.

That's the thing.

Like this wasn't even the house that he had shared with Michelle.

This was the house that Michelle had gone on her own.

And it's the sad reality that it's like you had a chance to stop it.

You could have called the police.

It's awful.

So with Kerry's confession on the record, investigators had everything they needed to arrest Lloyd now.

But they ran into a pretty big issue.

What?

He never showed up for that polygraph test at the police station that he said he was going to come to.

Don't even tell me.

An officer's lost sight of him.

Are you fucking kidding me, guys?

They lost sight of him.

Are you kidding me?

But luckily, they were able to use data from his cell phone.

Oh, thank goodness.

And they tracked him to a parking garage in Princeton, New Jersey, where he was threatening to jump from the top floor.

Oh, fuck off, Lloyd.

Like, oh, you just murdered a whole ass person and involved your daughter and now you're going to jump.

You're still trying to manipulate everybody's emotions?

Get out of here.

You're just never going to.

Get out of here.

So the officers in Princeton negotiated with him for over two hours.

What a waste of fucking time.

It's like, just come down.

We know you're coming down.

Exactly.

Just stop.

So finally, in a moment when he briefly looked away, an officer tackled Lloyd and placed him under arrest for the first degree murder of Michelle Nybrader.

Kerry was taken to Corning that evening and formally charged on one count of second degree murder.

And at that point, she was denied bail.

Wow.

So she was taken to the Steuben County Jail.

And Lloyd, meanwhile, he was still in New Jersey and now had to be extradited.

So that was a whole thing.

Yeah.

So two days later, on January 26, Kerry was arraigned in the city of Corning and she entered a plea of not guilty to second degree murder.

And she waived her right to a preliminary hearing.

That's always so hard to say.

Yeah.

And a few days later, Lloyd appeared before a judge in New Jersey where he waived extradition proceedings and then he was eventually transferred also to Steuben County.

So he and his daughter Kerry were finally formally indicted in late February in Steuben County, New York.

In total, he was indicted on seven felony accounts.

Damn.

Second degree murder, second degree attempted murder, first degree burglary, first degree custodial interference, tampering with physical evidence, second degree conspiracy and second degree criminal solicitation.

Wow.

And Kerry was indicted on four felony counts, second degree murder, first degree custodial interference, tampering with physical evidence and second degree conspiracy.

The district attorney Brooks Baker told the press this appears to be the ultimate domestic violence case.

Oh, that's awful.

What is clear from the evidence is this was not a crime of passion.

This was planned, calculated and a purposeful killing.

And he destroyed Kerry's life a hundred percent.

Like you not only killed this woman, her mother, but you destroyed her life.

Yeah.

No matter if she goes to jail for 25 years or she doesn't go to jail, like you've ruined her life.

She's going to look back on this and blame herself forever.

Yeah, that's the guilt she's going to feel.

And like the, you know, it's like this is, this is so bad.

And now she's lost both her parents.

Because she's like a random person, you know, soliciting somebody to kill somebody.

It's like, this is your father convincing you that this is his only way of, like I can't imagine.

The emotional manipulation.

The trauma that these kids faced.

Like for her to be manipulated into that by him, like the trauma they had to a face while they were children up until that point must have been so immense for him.

Even just those small comments that you heard from family friends, like he would yell front and center.

Yeah, that's the thing.

It's like, and people described like him as making their appearance immaculate.

Like kids are not meant to be immaculate.

No, they're meant to be in like just wild and, and you know, it's like they should have jam on their face.

Like sure.

Are there moments where you want your kids to look presentable?

Of course.

For like your Christmas card or whatever.

Your face.

You try to keep their hands clean.

You keep those fingernails clean.

But they're not meant to be immaculate.

Like.

No, it's like to be kids.

And it doesn't sound like they were allowed to be kids.

And that's the thing.

They weren't allowed to be kids because he was sitting there talking about the custody issue and the financial stuff with his children, which is something you, in my opinion, you should never fucking do.

No, never.

They should know nothing about your.

No.

The financial situation or anything situation, they should be kids and kids alone.

Kids alone.

That's it.

They should never have to know about adult issues between you or anything like that.

And it's like, when I talk about that all the time, that's like one of my biggest things.

Cause when I was little, I knew everything that was going on in my household.

I knew money problems.

I knew custodity.

I knew custody problems.

And you shouldn't.

And like, and it makes you have to grow up so much faster.

Yeah.

And then you look at other people's childhoods and you're like, oh, like you weren't worried.

You were carefree.

Like you didn't have to lend your mom your tooth fairy money.

Like what?

Oh my God.

That's so awful.

But yeah, but like that's why that's one of my biggest things when I have kids is like,

our kids will be kids.

Yeah, exactly.

You can't put that on them.

And everybody can raise their kids how they want to because.

Of course.

Everybody's going to raise kids differently.

But this is, you know, this is just our opinion on the matter.

So take it.

It's my opinion.

Take it or leave it.

But I don't, I think this is really fucked up what he did to these kids.

This is 100% his fault.

You're not the only one that thinks that.

Yeah.

Solidarity system.

Very cool.

And actually many professionals feel the same way.

Awesome.

Now, so from the moment they were arrested, investigators knew that Carrie would be the

easiest one to flip.

She was young.

She really didn't have a direct involvement in the murder as far as they knew.

And she very much seemed to have a shit ton of guilt about what she was involved in.

So after a few weeks in, while she was in jail, the district attorney met with her to

talk about a plea deal.

And it was during this interview that she actually revealed the shocking fact that despite

what she had told investigators originally, she actually had helped her father stage the

scene.

Oh no, Carrie.

Yes.

She didn't play a direct role in the murder.

Like her father very much murdered, but he, she helped cover it up.

She told investigators he opened the door and my mom was laying on the floor and he

said he needed help lifting her.

We dragged her around the corner and he tied the rope to one of the prongs of the banister

and lifted her up and put her, or, and she said, lifted her up and put through her over

the side.

And she was sobbing while she was saying this.

Like, she was.

I can't fathom this.

She was traumatized on another level.

The situation this girl was put into is.

Horrific.

She was put into this situation.

She was emotionally manipulated.

She was, oh, that's horrible.

That's horrible.

And then she also admitted that her father had ridden in the trunk of her car all the

way back to Rochester and her little sister never even knew he was in the car.

That's terrifying.

She snuck him in the trunk and he stayed in the trunk the entire time that they drove

back.

He's a fucking demon knowing that he had just murdered their mom, knowing that Carrie had

to pretend like she hadn't just.

Oh, he laid some kind of role in that piece of absolute shit.

This guy and the little sister has no fucking idea what's going on.

Like, and it sounds like Carrie is just like she made very bad choices.

Of course.

Very bad.

Like unimaginably bad.

Manipulated by a parent, which is the worst kind of manipulation.

I can't even fathom that.

Great.

And then it almost, it seems like she was also trying to protect her younger sister.

She absolutely was.

Who I'm sure she had to protect a lot from him.

Yep.

Like I'm sure that became a little bit of her job.

Absolutely.

Is protect the younger ones.

I'm sure.

And it's like that's fucked up.

That they should never be in that position.

That she had to play all these different roles to, to try to keep everything the way that

she thought it was.

But like it's really sad.

And again, secondary murder.

Yeah.

Absolutely.

Yeah.

You didn't call the police.

You didn't stop it in that sense in any way.

But damn, this is an awful situation.

It really is.

Cause the sad thing is it's like, she didn't have to do this.

No.

No way she didn't have to do this.

But then you look at it and you're like, if she called the police on him and like he

didn't go to jail, what would have happened to her?

Oh, she just, there's no way to put yourself in that situation with a parent, you know,

like, and especially like that kind of situation.

None of us can probably imagine it.

Right.

There really isn't.

There's no winning.

But like, fuck, it's an, it's an unimaginable situation on every level.

Truly.

From the beginning.

Truly.

So she did take the deal in exchange, in exchange for testifying against Lloyd.

She pleaded guilty to one count of second degree manslaughter.

Okay.

And she went on the record as having helped her father.

Yeah.

So during the hearing, she explained to the court how her father had confronted her with

the ultimatum.

Either she helped him kill Michelle or he was going to kill himself.

And she said she didn't know what to do.

So she agreed to help.

And, and so this is actually like a thing that was done to her.

It has like an actual term because in later interviews, Brooks Baker would explain that

Kerry had undergone what's known as parental alienation.

It's a process where one parent consistently criticizes and devalues the other parent with

the intention of turning that child against the other parent.

Oh yeah.

You can, that's like literally something that you can claim in custody issues.

Yeah.

It's like to keep them away from the other parent.

Yeah.

Like cause they will like claim parental alienation.

Yeah.

That's when you get like a guardian, a guardian at Lightham.

I think it's called.

Yeah.

And that's when they kind of start to work their way into a situation like that, which

is sad that it sounds like maybe a guardian guardian at Lightham would have been a better

answer here.

Honestly.

And it's like just because the relationship between Michelle and Lloyd had gotten so contentious

that I think there needed to be like a third party.

Yeah.

Because it sounded like the kids were being so affected by that.

And that sucks.

That sucks.

Yeah.

Like that really does.

That sucks that people do this to their kids.

It's like your relationship with your, your adult relationship should not have anything

to do with your children.

No.

And it's so sad.

I don't know why I just thought of this, but like I was looking at pictures of them together

because I try to look at pictures to kind of like understand who the people are and everything.

And there was pictures of like Michelle and Lloyd when they first got together and Carrie

and the older sister as babies.

Oh, I saw.

I was looking at those pictures and they all look so.

So happy.

Like he looks like a happy, goofy dad.

Yeah.

I think there's pictures of him like in the delivery room.

Like it kind of looks like when I was looking at some of them and he looks so excited and

like happy to become a dad.

And I'm like, how did you, what your future was?

And how did you like go from there to turning into this fucking awful monster?

And again, you want it like the marriage, you want to end the marriage.

That's fine.

But like, keep that relationship in that contention away from your kids.

Seriously.

And it's like, sometimes people are just not allowed to do that because the other parent

won't allow it, like won't let it happen.

It's like, that sucks.

It's really sad and it's really tragic how toxic divorce can become.

Yeah, especially for the kids involved in divorce.

And even when there's no kids involved in divorce.

It just sucks.

Yeah, all around.

It sucks.

I feel bad.

Anybody going through that, I'm sorry.

That sucks.

Because I can't even imagine and I would have no advice to give you because it's just,

I can't even fathom that.

No.

I don't want to prepare for it.

People are different in every situation.

So it just sucks.

This is just a fucking terrible situation.

It's tragic.

It really is.

So with Carrie having pled guilty and planning to testify against her father, the DA's office

got ready for what they figured Lloyd's most obvious defense would be.

That Carrie was the one who had killed Michelle and he was just protecting her all along.

Oh yeah.

Because again, all of the evidence against him was circumstantial so far and the only

one who had confessed to anything was Carrie.

So he easily could have turned around and like gone after her.

If he does that.

Well, like he's a fucking monster, but it's like how low can you go?

Yeah.

Pretty low.

Oh.

So district attorney Baker was anticipating an uphill battle of a trial.

So he went to Lloyd with a deal offer.

He said, you can plead guilty to the charge of first degree murder, face a sentence of

25 years to life in prison, and the additional charges will drop them if you take this deal.

Now at the time it was offered, like we know Lloyd was facing several felony cases.

Yes.

With additional charges now being added after the fact, because it was discovered that he

and his sister Wendy, Wendy Bonilla there, had attempted to bribe Carrie to change her

testimony.

What the fuck?

Fuck you, Wendy too.

Yeah, they told, she actually ended up getting arrested too.

Fuck both of you.

They told Carrie that they would get her a lawyer, like one of the best lawyers, and

that she would like get out of everything if she didn't do this.

What the fuck?

Yeah.

What is wrong with these people?

I do not know.

Oh.

So he was now facing extra charges against that.

So, but at the same time, Brooks Baker, the DA was like, I don't know if he's going to be

the kind of guy that's willing to come to the table with a compromise.

Like this guy never backed down.

No.

He's really going to back down now.

But after weeks of consideration, Lloyd surprised the DA's office and he accepted the deal.

Wow.

Which is shocking to me.

Yeah, I'm shocked by that.

So after the, excuse me, as would the deal offered to Carrie, Lloyd would have to go

before a judge and explain on the record what he had done.

And at the moment he started talking, Baker was like, oh no, this entire deal is going

to fall apart.

He said, I thought we were going to go bad for minute one because he starts off blaming

Michelle.

Wow.

Blaming Michelle.

But just as quickly as he blamed her, he actually surprised everybody again by reversing his

course.

Baker told CBS, he sort of said, but that doesn't matter.

I have no excuse.

Murder is wrong.

It's like all of a sudden he was like, beep, beep, boop.

I'm supposed to say this.

Like actually I have to get a plea deal.

So let me turn around.

Anything you say after blaming the murder victim for their own murder is pretty mute.

Pretty mute.

So he did, he went before the judge on October 12th, 2018, he confessed that he had killed

his ex-wife in order to quote, take custody of his 14 year old daughter and to end the

financial burden of paying Michelle as part of a divorce settlement.

Wow.

Like dude, just go back to court if you don't want to pay that much money or just stop paying

even like even that's better than murdering someone.

Anything short of murder is a better idea.

Right.

He also admitted obviously to manipulating and coercing Carrie into helping them cover

up the murder and enlisting his sister to bribe Carrie into changing her testimony.

I'm shocked that he just admitted all this.

He had to or else he wasn't going to get the deal.

I know.

I'm surprised he took this deal like forcing him to admit it.

I know.

I am too because no matter what he was going to basically spend the rest of his life or

like the better part of his life in prison.

So two months later he went before a Steuben County judge where he was sentenced to life

in prison without the possibility of parole.

Bye.

And at the hearing he told the court that he had found God.

No one cares.

And now he felt remorse about killing Michelle.

Good for you.

But was quick to add and this is his words not mine.

Michelle was unstable and needed to be committed to a mental institution.

Oh, there you are.

You really had to just do that.

There he is.

He's back everybody.

Like how's God?

Yep.

So before the sentence was passed, Michelle's mom got to read her victim impact statement

and she said, Lloyd and I writer abused and tortured my daughter for 25 years.

He coerced his own daughter into helping him kill her mother.

Carrie is now in jail facing the possibility of years in prison.

Lloyd and I writer should never be given the opportunity to harm anyone again.

Please, your honor, give him life without parole.

Yes.

And that he did.

Because it's like this isn't just a gun.

This is it's bad enough when a man will kill his wife.

Like, you know, the mother of his children.

Yeah.

Like that.

That's unthinkable.

But add your child into the fray.

What?

And let them take part of the shit.

How do you do that?

That's something.

I, oh, my brain just like explodes every time I think about it.

So he is serving servingly.

I combined currently and serving, you know, he is currently serving his sentence at the

maximum security Clinton correctional facility in Danimora, New York.

And now that leaves us with Carrie.

Yeah, I'm dying to know what's happening here.

So a week after her father was sentenced, she went before the same judge and she was

sentenced to one to three years in state prison.

Ultimately, she did serve two years of that sentence and she got released on January 16th,

2020.

Wow.

Now a lot of people even before and after her sentence was passed, they went out of

their way to convey that in certain ways, she also was a victim like we've been saying

this whole time of her father's cruelty.

Yeah.

Michelle's mother, so Carrie's grandmother, wrote in a letter to the judge saying, I

do not believe my daughter Michelle would want a long prison sentence for her daughter.

She would want her to eventually lead a happy life.

Wow.

Which is that tells you all you need to know.

I think that's true.

Yeah.

And Brooks Baker, the DA agreed.

He said, if anything, the more information I've learned about the methodology the father

used to get control, the more confident I am that this was the appropriate result.

See, and that all tells you except that they know more than we do about what happened here.

And I'm sure it's way worse than we thought on his end.

100%.

And that, you know.

And I think Carrie having to live mentally with what she was a part of the rest of her

life is a punishment in and of itself.

Now, reflecting on the case, Brooks Baker, hard to say, remarked having the daughter involved

was very unusual.

This is the first case I've dealt with where the child is involved in the homicide of a

parent.

I hope it's my last.

I also hope that my guy.

Yeah.

But that is the story of the murder of Michelle and I writer.

Such a tragic story.

And it sounds like since Carrie was released, she's just kind of gone on to lead a very

private life.

Well, you know, I hope that.

I hope the best for her.

I really do.

I hope she gets the help that she needs.

Yeah.

It was clearly a traumatic childhood and a traumatic, you know, young adulthood.

And I really truly hope that her father leaves her alone.

Oh, I hope that she never fucking has to hear from that piece of shit again.

No, it's not a healthy relationship that's going to offer her anything in my opinion

at the very least.

What a terrible case.

Yeah.

Terrible in every way that it could be terrible.

Poor Michelle.

Truly.

Those poor kids.

Seriously.

And Michelle's mom.

Yeah.

I was like, damn.

Yeah.

She is incredible.

She laid it down about Lloyd and then she laid it down about Carrie being manipulated.

Yeah.

And the fact that she already had to spend so many years estranged from her daughter because

of Lloyd and then Lloyd took her daughter forever.

Yeah.

That poor, poor family.

Wow.

I also hope nothing but the best for them.

I know.

I hope everyone, everyone that, you know, isn't Lloyd.

Yeah.

I hope they're.

They're driving well.

Me too.

And I hope they're, you know, living a peaceful existence.

Me too.

But fuck.

Yeah.

But I hope that you guys keep listening.

Yeah.

And we hope you keep it weird.

But that's the way you ever convince your child to murder your spouse because that's a fucking

wild thing to do when you shouldn't have children if you're going to do that.

Yeah.

Don't do that.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Machine-generated transcript that may contain inaccuracies.