Morbid: Episode 464: The Pamela Smart Case (Part2)

You're listening to a Morbid Network podcast.

Mike Williams set off on a hunting trip into the swamps of North Florida where it was thought

he met a gruesome fate in the jaws of hungry allogators, except that's not what happened

at all.

And after the uncovering of a secret love triangle, the truth would finally be revealed.

Binge all episodes of Over My Dead Body Gone Hunting right now, ad-free on Wondery Plus.

Hey, weirdos, I'm Ash.

And I'm Alaina.

And this is Morbid.

It's so morbid here.

It's so morbid because it's the day after the motherfucking Scandavall final.

Yeah, you're going to have to bear with us for like a moment here because...

Maybe a few moments.

The Vanderpump Rules Super Bowl has begun.

It started.

Really?

It commenced.

The playoffs has begun, I would say.

Commenced.

Commenced?

Yeah.

Let the games begin.

Yeah, I don't know about it.

We had the finale of Vanderpump Rules last night.

I know some of you are like skip, skip, skip, and that's okay.

It's okay.

Who partake, those of you who celebrate, was that or was that not the most infuriating

thing you've ever seen?

We've seen a lot of cheating go down on this show.

We have never seen cheating to this level go down on this show.

When Sandoval walked into Raquel's LED and galaxy lit apartment, Mama, grow up.

My soul left my body.

When Sandoval called Raquel Ariana and she still was like, I love you.

Oh my God, I was beside myself.

Beside myself on the couch.

Are you team he absolutely fucking said I love you and then said he didn't say it?

Or are you team he said they love you?

He definitely said I love you.

A girl I saw on TikTok literally like slowed it down and he said I love you.

Why are you playing mind games with your mistress?

He's a lot.

What?

He's a lot.

They're both really disgusting.

His the way he talked to Ariana last night, I was like, Ariana, you, you are dodged the

bullet of a century.

You are thriving my goddess because the spell she did with Kristen.

It worked.

It absolutely worked.

Look at her flourishing out here in these streets.

When Kristen did that spell with her, we looked at each other and we were like, that

shit worked because look at her.

That's why she doesn't even give a shit.

We have cello night up in here too.

And last night watching Ariana on Watch What Happens Live.

In the revenge dress of the century.

I showed John and I was like, I was like, tell me this isn't a goddess that we should

like worship at her feet.

Also, how do you cheat on that exquisite looking human snack being?

They always cheat down.

Always.

But like, how do you even cheat period?

And remember, I think I asked my ex-boyfriend straight out because he was like a big old

cheater.

Yeah.

I was like, I just really like to get inside on this because like I've never actually

met somebody that does this kind of heinous shit.

I've never met a monster like you do tell.

I was like, so can I interview you real quick?

I was like, why?

Why that girl?

Like what's that about?

And he literally said, I was like, why is it always like this is making me feel uncomfortable?

And he was like, yeah, it's just really, he's like, it's easy.

It's easier.

Wow.

And I was like, wow, you really just, you just gave that just right up.

Like just, I don't want to have to work for the cheating.

No, it's so true.

But they fucking worked for this.

I mean, they hid it or tried to hide this shit for months and months and months and

months.

They'll work to continue it, but they don't want to work to have to get it started.

I just, and Sandoval did not work to get this started.

I mean, well, yeah, Rachel was ready and willing to start this whole thing.

And the fact that he had the motherfucking audacity to blame it on Ariana, like, oh, she, if she

had just followed me, what?

If she just followed me to Schwartz's house, like what about that thing that you build

throughout a nine year relationship called trust?

One of my favorite parts, and don't worry, we'll get to the case, but we just got us

about this out.

One of my favorite parts was that it definitely was Ariana's fault because she was just never

in a place for him to tell her that he was cheating on her for seven months.

The vibes, the vibes were never right, but he literally said she was just never open

to hearing it.

I'm sorry, when are you open to hearing that your partner of almost 10 years has been having

an affair with your one of your best friends for seven months?

When will you ever be in a place of like, you know what?

I'd love to hear that.

Let's sit down and talk about it.

Yeah, I'm really open to hearing something catastrophic today.

So let's sit down and you can just tell me whatever you want.

And then just like one more small thing and then we'll get on with it.

Him, like her trying to talk to him and him just like taking the longest fucking pause

to take a sip of that drink.

Because he had to think of what he was saying next because he just can't.

Are you?

He can't human.

And also I feel like he had to get like an advertising moment in there.

Oh yeah.

We're advertising right now?

Well, and he just, he doesn't know how to human.

Like he had to like take a minute and be like, how do I human in this moment?

So you know.

Unreal.

If you don't watch guys.

Get on it.

Get on it.

Peacock has a whole like playlist basically of the most important episodes.

Oh, there you go.

That you can watch.

So that you know what's up.

But honestly.

I wish we had like a code for you or something.

I know.

But let me start from season one.

I'll give you all my login.

I'll give all of you my login.

I don't think that would work.

But I think they would catch on to that one.

You know, you never know.

Yeah, you know.

But yeah.

So Vanderpump aside, I didn't think I'd ever say that in my life.

After that scandal.

Oh my goodness.

Here's another scandal for you.

Cheaters everywhere.

So the theme of the episode today is cheaters, cheaters.

This is part two of the Pam Smart, Greg Smart series.

It's not really a series.

It's just a two-parter.

Part two.

Part two.

But when we left off in part one, we got all the Yucca details about Pam and Billy's

quote unquote relationship.

It's hard for me to call it a relationship because she's an adult and he's a child.

Yeah.

So that's hard.

They're crime.

We heard about that.

Pam and her husband, Greg's relationship becoming way more toxic.

And finally, how she asked her teenage lover at this point, I believe he's 16 year old

Billy Flynn to kill her husband.

So if you don't remember from part one, let me just give you like a quick little recap.

The plan was for Billy to go into the house through the basement.

Pam was going to leave that basement door unlocked.

Billy would wait there for Greg to get home.

He would shoot him and stage the scene to be a robbery.

And remember, Pam would be like she would get a whole alibi out of this because she

would be away at some kind of school board meeting.

Okay.

Like we said in part one, Billy had no gun, no car, no license.

And he also wasn't quite sure how he felt about murdering a human.

Wow.

So the first time Pam asked him, he couldn't go through with it.

But like we know, she lost it on him.

But at the very end of part one, we heard that Billy had another quote unquote opportunity

because there was another school board meeting that Pam was going to be away at.

So now let's get into exactly how Pam, Billy and some of Billy's friends actually did

carry out their plan to commit murder.

So if you remember from part one, two of Billy's best friends were JR and Patrick, who was

known as Pete.

And they were the ones who like to work on junk cars together in JR's front yard.

Yes.

They were the first best friends that Billy made when his family had moved to Seabrook

three years earlier.

And they were both very instrumental in helping Billy get through life when his father died.

Their families all knew them as like the three musketeers.

They did literally everything together.

In fact, there wasn't a lot that they wouldn't have done for each other.

Uh-oh.

And that statement was about to be taken to the next level.

Uh-oh.

So the first time Billy brought up the idea, you know, the one about killing a whole ass

man to his friends was the first or second week of April.

Okay.

Can't be like too sure.

But he told his two friends that there would be a lot in it for them.

Once the worst part was done, which he said obviously was killing Greg, they could take

any valuables that they wanted from the house.

Oh.

Fantastic.

Yeah.

Silver linings.

Yeah.

Woo-hoo.

So one afternoon Ralph Welch, who I mentioned it in part one, he had been staying with

JR.

Okay.

Yeah.

He like got kicked out of his house so he was staying at the Lattime house.

He had a cousin over Ralph did that ended up eavesdropping on a conversation between

Billy Pete and JR about the murder.

Oh, damn.

They're sloppy.

So rather than like contact authorities or tell someone, the cousin who's Ray, Ray Fowler,

not Boyd Fowler, Ray Fowler just decided he wanted in on it.

Like instead of going to anybody and being like, Hey, they're going to kill someone.

He was like, Oh yeah.

Like, can I get out of this?

What can I get out of this?

Like, what's up?

Wow, everybody.

A piece of shit.

How?

I always wonder how we say it every time.

How do these people find each other?

How do all these people find each other?

It's so wild to me.

It really is.

Now, Ray was a few years older than Billy and his friends, Ray was 18.

He already had way more than his fair share of run-ins with the police.

And the most recent was his four month, four months stay at the Rockingham County House

of Corrections.

He had already served time.

Oh, okay.

Yeah.

No big deal.

He was in the burglary and he would help with the murder if he had to, but he was really

just there to burglary burglary rise the house.

Yeah, absolutely.

Now that he had a full team assembled, though, Billy was like, Okay, like, I guess we should

start looking for a weapon so that we can carry out this murder.

Now, a lot of the kids involved thought that finding the gun would be the easiest part

of their plan.

I don't really know why they were like, Oh, we should be a little too loud.

That's why.

But they were surprised at what a hard time they were having.

So that's when they decided that they should find a large hunting knife as a backup plan.

A large hunting knife as a backup plan.

Your backup plan is to stab this man hand to hand combat with a hunting knife.

Like and you're worried about shooting him.

Like you can tell that these are just kids, kids, like their frontal lobes are not developed.

It's wild.

So yeah, they decided to look for a large hunting knife as a backup plan.

But you know, they were still going to look for a gun.

Now while the other boys kept on trying their different connections to find a gun, Billy

went to Pam and he was like, Hey, we're still having trouble looking for a car to use since

you know, none of us have a license.

And she was like, Oh my God, that's fine.

I have a Honda CRX and you guys can use it.

I'll park it behind the building on the night of the school board meeting.

I'll leave the key and the ignition take off as soon as you get there.

Okay.

Yeah.

So the plan did come to fruition for the first time in mid April.

Billy packed a duffel bag of dark clothing that he was going to change into.

And the four boys, Billy, Pete, Ray and JR loaded into Pam's car, which was parked behind

the building like she said it was going to be.

And they started making their way to the condo and dairy.

But as they were driving, Billy was getting way more anxious the closer they got.

He started to freak the fuck out.

He didn't want to go through with the murder anymore.

And he actually started giving Ray Fowler the wrong directions so that they would get

lost.

It's like, my God, just stop.

Like you don't want to do this.

And you don't have to do this.

And everything in the world is telling you not to, including your own conscience, which

apparently you have.

Seriously.

So some, so they did end up getting lost, but somehow Ray finally did figure out his

way to the condo.

But when they got there, Greg had already gotten home.

So already the plan was fucked.

And so they felt like they had missed their window.

So they headed back to Hampton.

Also, I can't help but think of Greg in that moment, like just carrying out his normal

night in his own home, having no idea how close he was to the people that were going

to murder him.

That's what's crazy to me is he had no idea these kids were driving around just waiting.

And like, and that they literally plan was in motion.

Right.

Like they got to his condo and they very well would have been inside had he not gotten home

before they got there.

That's so sad.

It's so sad.

And it's just so scary.

Yeah.

Now, when Billy went to Pam and explained what happened, she was just the same as last

time.

Probably worse.

Absolutely furious with him.

She was like, if you loved me as much as you said, then you would stop making excuses.

You'd follow through.

She went with the whole, I don't know if we should be together anymore if you can't do

this for me.

Wow.

What a piece of shit.

Yeah.

A piece of shit.

This is the second time now that she's done this.

Finally, Billy broke down and he said, next time I won't fail.

Oh my God.

Fail.

Like, no, you're failing if you're murdering someone.

That's a big old failure.

Like go down the right path here, Billy.

And that's walk away.

It's so sad to see how many times he almost did.

But she brought him right back into her tangled web.

She knew that what that he could be manipulated and he was.

So the next time came a few weeks later on May 1st.

Pam was once again scheduled to be at a school board meeting.

So Pete and JR agreed to help a second time, but now they decided that they wanted to be

paid.

Wow.

So not only did they want the valuables at the house, they wanted payment.

So Billy went to Pam about this and she was like, okay, I'll give them $1,000 each, but

I'm going to pay it out in installments of $50 per week.

So it doesn't seem suspicious.

Oh yeah.

You paying these two kids for literally no reason at all is not suspicious.

Yeah.

It's just the amount.

That's all.

That's crazy.

You're insane.

Otherwise the murder was just to move forward like Pam had planned all along.

Now in the days leading up to the murder, she made sure that they weren't going to fuck

it up this time.

She drove around the neighborhood with Billy and Cecilia, pointing out where they should

park the car so that they wouldn't be noticed sneaking into the condo.

And JR agreed to take one of his father's guns to use, but they still planned on bringing

the knife with them just in case.

And this time, they were taking JR's grandmother's car.

Oh man, this is grosser and grosser.

They drove a Nana's car to commit murder.

So on the morning of May 1st, Greg went to work.

He did some paperwork, returned a couple phone calls, and then he ducked out of the office

early.

The reason he left early was because he was going to be having dinner with a few clients

that evening.

But in the meantime, he went to his parents' house.

He played with his little niece, chatted with his parents, fixed a flat tire, and then went

off to all his appointments.

So it was 8.30 at night by the time he finished up with his clients and headed back home to

Derry.

And by that time, all the arrangements had been made.

Pam had left the basement door unlocked and she told the boys where all the jewelry was,

all the valuables told them exactly where they could find everything.

And she said the rest of the details, she didn't want to know.

Oh, okay.

I don't want to know.

But you do know because you planned this entire thing from beginning to end.

Yeah.

And I'll let you do it.

I'll let you deal with all that.

And live with that.

Yeah.

But I don't want to know.

But I don't want to know.

But I don't want to know.

The details.

Yeah.

Fuck you.

Okay.

So it was still light out when they all arrived in Derry, so they drove around a little bit

before JR parked the car in a shopping plaza near Misty Morning Drive.

Billy and Pete sat in the back seat.

They were tap, excuse me, taping their fingers so that they wouldn't leave fingerprints.

They taped their fingers.

Jesus.

Then Billy loaded the 38 revolver that JR had taken from his dad's collection.

And once the sun went down, Billy and Pete, the two of them, crept around the backside

of the condo until they found the door that led to Greg and Pam's unit, the basement door.

Now they made their way inside.

Billy had to chase around the dog who was barking and growling.

And he was like, I'll get the fuck out of my house, but Billy got him into the basement.

And this is like a tiny dog.

Is it?

Yeah.

What is it?

It's a little guy.

Exactly.

So then once the dog was out of the way, they headed upstairs.

They ripped apart the couple's bedroom.

Pete threw everything of value into a pillowcase that he'd taken from their bed wild.

And then they did the same thing on the first floor.

They turned over side tables, lamps, just grabbed whatever they thought was valuable.

Pete grabbed a knife from the kitchen and cut open multiple pillows on the couch and

just like spread the stuffing out across the living room floor, I guess, for a dramatic

effect.

Hmm.

I was like, what was the point of that?

Yeah.

Like, was that just for fun?

Like, I don't think robbers slice pillows.

No.

I mean, I don't know.

But maybe.

It's weird.

So once they felt like they had sufficiently ransacked the house, Billy and Pete sat in

the dark just waiting for Greg to get home.

And as they waited, they talked about the best way to subdue him when he finally did walk

in the door.

Billy thought that it might be a good idea to wait in the closet and jump out when Greg

finally walked in or he suggested that maybe they should throw a towel over his head when

he arrived to like disorient him.

This man walks into his house and they throw a towel over his head.

They're just sitting there deciding like what they're going to do.

Now finally they settled on a strategy.

Pete would wait behind the door and surprise Greg when he walked in and then Billy would

turn off all the lights and close the door.

Now a few minutes after they settled on their plan, they watched Greg's truck pull into

the driveway.

So in the excitement and anxiety that they were having, Billy and Pete's positions got

switched and Billy ended up behind the door.

So Greg walked in the front door.

He flicked on the hall light and called out to the dog.

Everything was eerily silent for a few seconds.

And then Billy jumped out from behind the door and grabbed Greg by his shoulders.

So obviously he's like stunned so he yells out and he pulls back hard.

But before he could get away, Pete rushes over and he rushes up behind Greg and pushes

him to the floor.

Then he turns off the lights and closes the door.

Now when he turned back, Billy had Greg on the floor in front of the stairs just beating

him in the face while Greg was just trying to block any of the blows.

This man just walked into his house.

Into his home.

To this chaos.

It was a full day of work after spending time with his family earlier, just being a normal

fucking guy.

Oh shit.

Hi there, Morbid listeners, it's Ash and Alina.

As you all know, on our show, we share a passion for all things spooky, the paranormal, and

of course some mind blowing true crime cases.

There's another podcast that we think you will all enjoy called Suspect, Five Shots

in the Dark.

This latest season looks at a case with two victims, one murdered in cold blood and one

imprisoned for a crime he didn't commit.

It follows Leon Benson's story, a man who spent more than half of his life, a total

of 24 years, in an Indiana State prison for the murder of Casey Shane, a man he never

met.

There was no physical evidence, no known motive, and no one coming forward with information.

He was sentenced to 60 years in prison, all because one person swore they saw something.

But what if she was wrong?

From Wondery and Campside Media comes season three of the hit podcast, Suspect.

You can listen to Suspect early and add free on Wondery Plus.

Find Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts.

So Billy's beating the shit out of him.

So Pete rushes over and grabs Greg by the hair and slams his head into the wall.

They like attacked him.

Oh my god.

And Pete screams at him, get down on your knees.

And he lunged forward slightly with the knife in his hand to make Greg do what he wanted

to say.

So Greg did as he was told and he said, just don't hurt me, dude.

Oh my god.

He repeatedly asked about the dog, like where's the dog, where's the dog?

Oh.

And Pete finally told him nobody had hurt the dog.

And then Pete demanded that Greg take off his wedding ring and give it to them.

Ew.

And Greg said, I can't give it to you.

My wife would kill me.

So he had obviously no idea that his wife had orchestrated this whole thing and he's

thinking about her getting mad at him.

Oh my god.

Up until the very end, which I'm sorry.

That tells you exactly who Pam was, that he was like, his whole life is being threatened

right now.

And he's like, I can't give you this ring.

She'll get mad at me.

And if it's me giving it to Robbers, like, wow, that should tell you everything you need

to know right there.

So telling, like the horrific irony in that statement.

Oh, that's awful.

My wife would kill me.

Like that's really awful.

It's terrible.

And just him saying, like, don't hurt me and him saying, like, where's the dog, like worrying

about everything else around.

Like I just, oh, that's like really gut wrenching.

That's the perfect word for it.

So they fumbled around with his wallet, they were procrastinating until there was finally

nothing left to do but to kill him.

So from the moment they started talking about the plan to kill Greg, Pete had been confident

that he was going to be able to do it without a second thought.

He was like, I can do it.

He was boasting to his friends, telling them that he was actually curious to know what

it would be like.

Oh, shut the fuck up.

He was saying he was looking forward to it.

These kind of idiots who like later when you hear that they're like, yeah, I'm looking

forward to it.

I can't wait.

Get so wrecked.

Get absolutely wrecked.

Correct.

My guy.

Like, ugh.

That is dark-sided.

That's given dark-sided.

No, it's truly dark-sided.

But now he was faced with the reality of actually murdering a human.

Of course.

So things felt a little different than he thought they might.

That's the thing.

I'm like, you're disgusting for like play, play acting, like, oh yeah, I'm actually looking

forward to it.

It's like, fuck you dude.

Okay, tough guy.

Yeah.

You're fucked if you're looking forward to murder.

And now there's a man sitting in front of you on his knees begging for his life.

What are you going to do?

Exactly.

And then he couldn't handle it.

Later during the trial, Pete would testify that Greg's comments about the wedding ring

and his, excuse me, his pleas for his life made him in that moment regret what they were

doing.

Of course it did.

So you should have stopped.

You should have stopped and you should have said, my guy, your wife sent us to do this

and we don't want to do it.

I so wish.

Imagine if they had done that.

I so wish that the story ended that way and she went away for like attempted murder

or conspiracy.

That's the thing.

It should have been like these, if these little boys, and that's the worst part about this,

these children had the wherewithal or the, you know, any kind of moral compass here to

stop and go, I can't do this.

I was sent here to kill you and I don't want to do it and I was sent here by your wife.

So you need to get the fuck out of this marriage and you, and we got to go away.

Like, we're so sorry that we're even alive.

These kids would be, you know, they would have gotten in trouble, but it wouldn't be

what they're in trouble for now.

And in the end, they would have been the heroes of the story.

They would have saved his life.

That's the thing.

They would have turned around and been the ones that sat there and went, you know what?

What the fuck were we thinking agreeing to do this and they can take their consequences,

but it wouldn't have been the consequences they get now.

It would have been, we thought about it.

We had a, we had a heart, like, and to think now and to hear now that like that kid sat

there and regretted it before even doing it, but being like, I don't even want to be here.

But he still did it.

It's like my guy, you had a chance and you didn't take it.

So whatever the fuck you got after that, you deserve.

Absolutely.

And it's so frustrating.

Absolutely.

What a frustrating story.

It really is.

It's just terrible.

Yeah.

So in the moment when Pete realized that he couldn't do it, he looked to Billy and

nodded his head in the direction of the revolver.

That was in Billy's jacket pocket.

So Billy knew what that meant, obviously.

He grabbed the gun from his pocket and he pulled back the hammer and held it right

near Greg's head.

The three of them stood there.

Pete was still gripping Greg by the hair and Billy was holding the man to, excuse me,

holding the gun to the man's head for what he would later say to a jury felt like a hundred years.

Oh, and Greg is just sitting there, just sitting there with the gun to his head,

being like, what the fuck is going to happen?

Right.

Because at that point he's probably like, are they even going to do this or are they

just trying to scare me?

Like, what's going on here?

Oh, then Billy inhaled deeply and before he pulled the trigger, he said, God, forgive me.

Baby, God, I don't know him.

I don't know much about him, but I don't think he's going to forgive you for that.

If there is a God and you believe in that God, that God does not forgive you, my friend.

I can tell you that much.

You just stuck a gun to some man's head.

Like his wife that you are fucking told you to.

That's not a real friend if he's going to forgive you for that.

Yeah, I don't think that's something that just gets written off in the book.

I'm also like, did you just God, are you there?

It's me, Margaret, in the middle of a murder.

Did you just God, that's what you did to me?

Like, how dare you?

Fuck you.

How dare you?

Fuck you.

Like, I'm not religious, but how fucking dare you?

No, me either.

That's just like disgusting to bring God into that situation is fucked.

Like, what a mockery that is.

It is, absolutely.

Or it feels like at least, I would think so.

So with the plan completed, the both of them ran for the back door.

Pete grabbed the pillowcase full of the valuables,

and then they ran through the back door.

They jumped the railing on the back porch and ran.

There was a big field behind the condo, so they ran through that

until they saw the headlights of JR's grandmother's car.

Oh my God.

Can you imagine if I was his grandma, I'd be like,

you have been written out of my will.

Oh, yeah.

And then some.

You've been written out of all the wills.

You've been written out of my life.

You didn't even get your own will.

That's what I would say.

Exactly.

I'm revoking your right.

You don't have one.

Nope.

I mean, what do you really have at that point?

But the plan was for the other two boys to wait in the parking lot

until Billy and Pete returned, but something had changed.

I think they got nervous.

So they were parked in a different area than they should have been.

So both boys were falling over themselves as they were sprinting

through the grass until finally they got to the car

and they heard themselves into the back seat and shouted for them to drive.

Now Billy and Pete changed in the back seat as they were just drove

along the back roads back to Seabrook.

They threw a ton of items of clothing out of the window as they drove.

But what didn't get thrown out of the window went into the black

duffel or went into the duffel bag, which they would ditch on the in the woods

on the way back.

OK, I'm so excited.

I'm like, I'm so excited to tell the story.

Yeah.

So to cut the tension, J.R.

This is fucked.

This is absolutely wild.

They were cutting the tension.

J.R. and Ray started singing Shoe Fly Pie.

Shoe Fly Pie.

It's like this song I looked it up.

It's really fucking weird.

I was like, what even is that?

It's like it's almost like a like.

Like one of those songs like a shabop kind of like a shabop.

I don't know how to describe it.

I need to look this up now.

It's very it's like old tiny like what you would play at the Gilmore Girls

Dance Along thing at the like dance marathon.

Yeah, exactly.

So Billy was like this made him feel better.

He was starting to smile.

It made my fucking stomach turn.

And Pete actually got wicked pissed off at them for singing

and was like, shut the fuck up.

Like, I don't want you to sing right now.

Damn.

He wanted to get the hell out of Derry

and as far away from the condo as he possibly could.

So Pam, she got back home to Derry around 10 30 PM.

Once everything was done, she of course

pretended to be shocked and horrified when she found Greg's body.

Neighbors could hear her screams from several houses away, they said.

And it was followed by her yelling, help my husband,

my husband.

Wow, you piece of shit.

An actual monster.

So she ran to the house next door

and she said something was wrong with her husband

and that they needed to call 911.

And like, you know that he's dead.

You just found him lying in a pool of his blood

at the bottom of your stairs.

Now, Derry, New Hampshire at Hampshire at the time

had a super low crime rate

and homicides were like super out of the ordinary.

So I actually to drive that point home even further.

Before Greg's murder, there had been zero murders

in the town that year. Oh, damn. Zero. Wow.

So when officers arrived and they found Greg lying face down

just beyond the front door, still dressed in his gray suit and coat.

They were shocked. Yeah.

Now, by the time they got there,

his skin had been bruised up completely

and there was a bit of blood coming from his nose.

One of the officers checked for a pulse,

but obviously they weren't able to find one.

And another neighbor who was actually a medical assistant

offered to do CPR because at this point,

they're not seeing that he's been like shot. Yeah.

So the officer that hadn't found a pulse

rolled Greg over onto his back.

And that was when they saw the bullet hole on the top of his head.

And they were like, yes, CPR is not necessary anymore.

So to the responding officers, the scene seemed like

what Pam had hoped it would like.

Greg came home, found somebody robbing his house

and had been killed by the intruders. Yeah.

Outside the condo, it was absolute chaos

because Pam's screams had drawn all the neighbors outside.

Dozens of people were just crowding

around the area outside of the house.

So Pam asked that somebody called Judy and Bill

who remember lived like five minutes away in the same complex.

Yeah.

And whoever called them just said that Greg was, quote,

very, very sick.

Are you kidding me?

So they rush over there thinking like, oh, no, like he doesn't have a stomach bug.

Like, yeah, like what's going on?

No, so they threw on their coats over their pajamas and they ran over,

but they got stopped by the police at the perimeter of the scene.

And Judy was like, what the fuck is going on?

And Pam just told her, I don't know, I was at school.

There was a meeting, like being super theatrical, like over the top,

but giving nothing. Of course.

Luckily, she was interrupted, but also not luckily.

The front door opened and an officer stepped out of the house.

And it was then that Greg's parents saw his body lying on the floor.

Oh, my God.

And the officer came out and told them we can't help him.

He's already dead. Oh.

So the case called for the presence of the Dairy Police Captain,

who at the time was Captain Lauren Loring Jackson.

Now, he arrived to the scene after it had already been cleared completely.

He was a veteran detective, luckily.

Like, thank goodness we have somebody who knows what they're doing here.

Seriously.

He had 24 years on the job between Massachusetts and New Hampshire,

and he had seen every kind of crime you could possibly see.

Yeah.

Now, the other officers on the scene obviously weren't a seasoned.

So he started taking over and just divvying out tasks.

Yeah.

He wanted to be sure that everything was properly documented

and that all the evidence was collected and catalogued correctly.

That was like a big thing for him, which it always should be.

Yeah.

Now, some officers went out to check the fields beyond the complex

in just about a hundred yards from the smarts back deck area.

Sergeant Vincent Byron found a large carving knife stuck into the ground.

Oh, they had left the knife.

They left that.

They left the knife behind.

Why?

Like, I'm glad they did, but like, Jesus, I think they must have dropped it

on the way is all I can think of. Wow.

But then actually, no, because it was stuck in the ground.

That's what I mean.

Like, why would they shove it into the ground and run?

I don't know if they just had too much between the valuables that they had stolen.

Like, drop a valuable, my friends.

Right, you would think so.

Not the actual, like, other murder weapons.

Seriously.

And then so they found the knife in the ground out there,

but then a few feet away from that, that sergeant there found pieces

of cardboard and plastic from Pam's jewelry box.

So he's like, what the fuck is like happened here?

Yeah.

So by two thirty that morning, the Dairy Police got joined

by the New Hampshire State Police Major Crimes Unit

who went over the house a second time, like it had already been totally cleared.

And then they were like, we're going to have cleared even further.

Yeah.

Took more photos, got more evidence and took notes on literally everything.

Then another group of officers started going around to the neighbors

who were like really overall very unhelpful.

They hadn't seen much or heard much, but it's like whatever.

So according to almost everybody they talked to,

Greg was quote, a very private individual, someone they never really got to know

during the 18 months he and his wife had lived in Dairy.

See, that's why it's important to know your neighbors, my friends.

My neighbors never talked to me.

My neighbors and I had a barbecue the other night or no last night

and it was it was wonderful.

I love this delightful.

Yeah, they'll be on the lookout for like any weird shit.

That's the thing, like know your neighbors,

because like it's it's a good thing to get to be friends with your neighbors

because then they're on that shit.

See, like it takes a village, my friends.

And if everyone's looking out for each other, no shit gets past you.

I was just thinking about it.

And my neighbors don't really talk to me, but they talk to Drew.

What do you think that means?

I don't know what that means.

That's weird. I'm offended.

I just think I'm like, you know what?

If you have a chance to have like a tight knit little neighborhood,

if you happen to be in there, do it, man.

Yeah, because everybody's on that text chain

and everybody's like, what the fuck was that car?

Who say who's did you hear that noise?

Like everyone's on it. I love it.

There's like an app now, too.

That I think there is like keep in touch with your neighbors

and even like people like beyond your neighbors are like in close proximity.

Me and my neighbors just have a text chain.

I think it's called like next door or something.

Yeah, I think you're right.

Drew has it. Maybe that's why they talk to him.

Yeah, I think we just have a text chain.

And as soon as like, I think like somebody on an outside street

got their car broken into everyone fucking knew that by the morning.

Everyone was checking each other's cars if you weren't at your house.

Like, oh, my God, I love it. It was great.

That's ideal. I was like, nay, burrs.

Nay, burrs.

Well, this was also a time which is crazy to think about before cameras.

Yeah, exactly. Before people had doorbell cameras.

So it's even more important back then.

Like that's why it is very helpful if your neighbors can be like,

yeah, we know that person, you know, but it can be on the lookout

for like something weird is happening over there.

I might step in. Exactly. That's the thing.

If you don't know your neighbors,

they're not going to feel comfortable doing that.

Exactly, which it sucks that this was a case where they just

they didn't know each other very well.

And not for any reason.

It doesn't sound like it just seems like it didn't happen,

which 100 percent, it doesn't happen a lot of times.

So and I also make it happen. Try to.

I think this was kind of more of a time where like you minded your own business.

Yeah, that's what I mean.

So Pam, she was just as unhelpful to the investigators,

but obviously more pointedly, she explained that she got home.

She found Greg on the floor and she said, quote, having watched television shows

like Rescue 911, she decided against touching the body

and instead just started screaming for help.

OK, it's like, OK, like what?

Why did you have to mention that?

Sorry, there's a fruit fly in my face.

I do remember how what a show called that show had on all of us, though.

Rescue 911, I don't think I ever watched that.

I think it was before your time.

It was Rescue 911 and Unsolved Mysteries were like back to back.

Unsolved Mysteries and Rescue 911 was intense. Really?

Yeah, it was very intense.

I feel like reenacted 911 calls, but you heard the 911 call.

Not for me. It was like everyone's first venture into true crime, I believe.

Yeah. Yeah. Mine was Unsolved Mysteries and Forensic Files.

Yeah. Yeah. A good one. A good one.

Now, so obviously we all say all the time how, you know,

people are going to react differently to trauma and grief.

Yeah. But there was something off about Pam's behavior

in the minds of the detectives.

Shoot, like they were, I think they kind of tried to put it in the back of their minds.

The more and more they got through the investigation, but it was still there.

Yeah, you observe, you look at it and say, OK, everyone greaves differently.

But when compiled upon other evidence, you go, OK, that is a little strange.

Right. Like you just hold it in the back of your head

and just put it together with the other evidence.

And then you find like the supporting things that tie it together.

Yeah. So she was super calm and super composed.

Which was not really what anybody expected from a woman

who had just found her husband murdered in their home a few hours earlier.

Yeah. But, you know, OK.

Everybody's different, I suppose.

Yeah, different strokes for different folks.

In this case, not so much. Not so much.

To detective Barry Cherwicks, I believe is how you say it.

Pam seemed more anxious than sad or upset.

She was nervous and he noticed that her eyes would dart around the room

at different times throughout the interview, which is so telling

because, you know, who else's eyes do that? Scandal balls.

That's true. But anyway, he tried to remind himself

that, you know, people act differently in these situations.

I'll dismiss it right now is just another strange reaction to death.

But it's in my head. But I will note it.

So the next day, the state medical examiner confirmed that, of course,

the cause of death was the single gunshot wound to the head.

And the he, the medical examiner estimated that it had occurred

just an hour or two before Pam arrived home, which was correct.

Now, the wound itself was ragged, which suggested to the medical examiner

that Greg had been shot at close range with somebody holding the gun

very close to his head, which was also true.

But what was strange was that there was no gunpowder residue on the wound

and there were small pieces of lead on the scalp,

which indicated that the bullet started to fragment before it struck Greg.

Huh. And even stranger, there was no blood spatter at the scene

like you would expect with this kind of crime.

So the medical examiner was trying to figure this out,

like how that could have happened.

And he felt like somebody had placed a pillow.

Oh, my God, I was literally just going to say.

Yeah, they placed the pillow on his head.

Exactly. So that's what they thought.

Like they, they took a pillow or some kind of soft thing

in between Greg's head and the barrel of the gun, almost like a silencer.

Or quiet.

Because of my pulse. Yeah.

But they couldn't find anything at the scene to support that theory.

There was no pillow with a hole through it.

So, and sadly, that question would never be answered.

So I don't know if maybe they took the pillow with them

and it was one of the things they threw out maybe on the way,

but they never answered that question.

Oh, that's interesting. It's it is. Yeah.

That's really interesting.

But I would think that's probably I'm sure that's it.

Yeah. Like I think they were

conniving enough to silence that gun in a movie.

Probably. I think they saw it in a movie

or Pam saw it on Rescue 9-1-1 and reiterated it.

And they did it. Yeah. Exactly.

Now, so obviously the cause of death was not that surprising to anybody.

Everybody knew that Greg had been shot.

But what they wanted to know, obviously, was who killed Greg and why.

So while authorities were combing through evidence,

Pam was super happy to entertain reporters.

Oh, I'm sure.

And she had so many theories as to what happened.

She told the Dairy News,

I'm absolutely convinced someone was burglar burglarizing our house

and Greg just walked in.

Like, gee whiz, Pam, what made you think that?

Yeah. Wow. Was it the robbery scene that you saw?

Was it the entire robbery scene that you set up?

Was it the look like that?

The missing valuables from your home that you orchestrated?

The ransacked house.

Like, yeah.

She also told reporters that in the days since she had found her husband dead,

she'd woken up at six a.m. every day and called the police for updates,

but said that they, quote, she said that, quote,

they haven't even sat down with everything yet, which is not true.

And also, it's like, oh, now we're going to shit all over the police,

even though, you know, you set up this whole thing up, right?

Like, wow, like these police who haven't handled a murder.

Yeah, this week, this week, this year, this month, this year,

anywhere, anytime, like that never handle murders.

Right. And like, you know, you did it

and you're still being like, it's their fault.

Like, like trying to play the victim.

Oh, and it wasn't only it wasn't only their fault.

She was also pissed at the neighbors.

Oh, of course.

She said she found it hard to believe that none of her neighbors

heard anything on the night of the murder.

Wow. I'm like, you orchestrated this whole thing.

You are throwing everyone under the bus

when you're a fucking murderer at heart.

Like, are you kidding me?

Like, OK, gaslighter McGee.

She literally told reporters, quote,

I've heard their stereo before and I know they've heard mine.

I know a gunshot isn't a common sound in Derry, New Hampshire,

but I'd at least look out the window.

Wow. It's like, yeah, they didn't hear a gunshot

because you probably told your boy there to fucking silence it.

And it's like, you are a murderer at heart.

Like, you just don't have one.

You just didn't want to get in trouble for it.

And you thought you could get away with it by having someone else do it.

Yeah. But if you're setting someone else up to get murdered by someone else,

you are a murderer. Absolutely.

Like, you are capable of that.

Absolutely.

And you're sitting here like saying that the neighbors are at fault

when you know what you did.

The neighbors didn't hear anything.

So fuck them and the police aren't working on this yet.

So fuck them. Damn.

Like, what?

Yeah, it's everybody else's fault.

She's crazy.

So Police Captain Loring was not pleased to say the least

that Pam was talking to the press.

Yeah. Because he had personally told her not to.

Jesus.

He was like, can you stop doing that, please?

You think she would listen to them, too,

to try to play along with the whole thing?

Yeah, to be cooperative.

To be seem like a very cooperative instead of making waves.

I don't think. So that they look at you a little heavier.

I don't think she was capable of cooperating.

I think it's in her mind, it was her world.

And she was orchestrating it how she saw fit.

And the spotlight was on her and she couldn't.

She couldn't help herself.

Yep, she absolutely loved the attention.

She had to lean in.

So the investigators and Derry had been working on the case,

obviously, even though Pam said they weren't.

And they told her sharing any kind of info with the press

could be really damaging or could even compromise their case.

Yeah.

So they're like, why the fuck are you trying to ruin our case, lady?

And Lauren, excuse me, Loring Jackson would later say

that Pam was very defensive about talking to the press.

She said she didn't want to hear anything bad about the press

because she was one of them.

Oh, because remember, the fuck she wanted to work in the media.

And she did work in media.

Also, you're not a reporter.

You're a volunteer for project self esteem.

Yes, humble, thyself, humble, thyself.

Fuck you, Pam.

But Jackson found her comment

about being one of the press very strange.

It really wasn't the only thing about her

that he was going to find strange as the investigation went on.

And he still, he was like, her behavior, it's fucking weird.

For instance, when she was allowed to go back to the house

after the scene had been cleared,

she started complaining about what a mess

the investigators had made in her home.

She also stepped right onto the blood stain

from where Greg's body had been found

and had the audacity to ask them who was going to clean that up.

Wow.

Stepped on the blood stain

and said, who's going to clean this up?

What?

You caused it.

You made this.

Like, you caused that.

And then you're mad that we trashed your house

trying to figure out who did this?

Like, what the fuck?

Because the reason, like, this is all doubly, triply,

quadruply fucked up,

because you're like, you know that she did this.

Yeah.

Like, she's causing all these problems

in bitching and moaning when she did this.

She made this all happen.

Wow.

And like, you're, and I don't know what it is.

Like, you're going to ask who's going to clean this up.

You orchestrated this and you can't even fucking clean it up.

That's the thing.

You wanted this baby to clean it up.

If this was a real, like, a real thing

where like, somebody had come in and robbed their house

and killed her husband.

Yeah. Who's going to clean that up?

Ask who's going to clean that up.

Totally. Because like, you, that's, I can't,

I never knew before like really getting into researching true crime

and all that and learning about like aftermath ink

and all that stuff and like 24, you know, whatever,

that like victims are left to call someone,

to hire a whole team to come and clean up

after their loved ones.

Like you have to pay for that.

Like you have to pay for it.

Like a lot of people don't know that.

And it's like, I never knew that until we started this podcast.

And I'm sure a lot of people, when it happens to them,

they don't know that.

So they come back to the house and they're like,

who the fuck is going to clean this?

Like, I can't clean this.

So if that was the case, it's like, yeah, ask,

be like, I don't know what's happening here.

But that's the thing, knowing that she did it.

It's like, you need to clean this up.

You clean it up.

Wench. Like, Jesus.

Get to work.

Oh.

So what was shitty was that the crime scene

itself was kind of just as unhelpful as the neighbors

and Pam, like they were hitting a lot of dead ends.

Yeah. Obviously, it was obvious that somebody

had ransacked the house, but it didn't seem

like your regular robbery.

So they're like, they're confused here because they're like,

yeah, it seems like this happened, but it's awful

a little bit. Yeah.

It's like disorganized.

Actually, it's strangely organized.

They thought they were like, what?

Like it seems like there's differences in the ways

that some areas were trashed.

Like some were more organized than others.

And so the investigators theorized that there were two intruders.

I was going to say, because I would think

that would be like multiple people right off the bat.

Exactly.

There were also some more strange tidbits

on the first floor of the home.

Greg's ring and his car keys were found underneath his body

and his wallet, which still had all his credit cards

tucked was was tucked safely away.

It was found by his legs.

So they're like, they didn't steal his car.

They didn't take his ring and his wallet full of his credit

cards is right here.

And why do they have him take off the ring?

I don't know.

Like, because my initial thought was that,

my initial thought with that, and maybe I'm wrong,

I don't know, was that that was an order from Pam

as proof that they had done it.

I could see that.

Because they were supposed to bring that ring back.

That's what I assumed was the like whole thing.

I thought she was like, bring me that ring.

So I know you actually did it.

Well, she would have known they actually did it

when she got home.

So that like she wouldn't have had to do that.

Oh, I forgot that they didn't meet before that.

Like they didn't meet before she went home.

No, she just got the car.

They got the car for where she had parked it.

And then the whole thing was that she was going to come home

and find this.

OK, that makes more sense.

So what I think with the ring is that they probably,

I think Billy probably was like, take it off.

Or Pete said, take it off because like, you know,

he's fucking Pam now.

Yeah, that's true.

And then I think maybe in the haste of everything,

they forgot to take the ring.

Yeah, because it's like, why did you do that?

Because I think they had fully planned on taking that ring.

They must have.

They just were stupid.

Because like that's like, what a last humiliation for Greg.

Right.

To make him remove that ring and then to leave it.

It's like, wow, so you just did that just to do that.

Like that's even more fucked up.

It's adding insult to it.

Yeah, it's just like, that's really, that's really gross.

It's fucked.

But so that's the thing.

Investigators are like, OK, so there's clearly two intruders,

but like they both suck.

Like that's weird.

What the hell?

Very strange.

And they started thinking, if somebody was going into a home

to take everything of value.

So much so that they were willing to commit a murder

in the middle of it.

Why wouldn't they take the most valuable things?

Yeah.

That's weird.

No.

Even the car.

Yeah, it doesn't make sense.

So the investigators, they still felt like the theory

of a robbery gone wrong wasn't a bad one,

but it had other flaws even beyond the valuables left behind.

Yeah, it's like more nuanced.

It was going to start kind of like falling by the wayside

the whole their whole theory.

Again, why would these robbers, even if they weren't

the most experienced, choose a time to rob

a densely populated condo when everyone was home and awake?

Yeah.

That was another thing that they were like, why would they do that?

And they also reasoned that most burglars, even petty thieves,

they don't usually bring along a firearm

and they're usually not willing to kill someone.

Yeah, they just want to steal shit and leave.

And if for some reason they did go against all of that

and kill someone, again, why wouldn't they

take the most valuable things when they had already gone that far?

Yeah, exactly.

That's the thing.

You better take all the valuable shit now.

Right.

So between Pam's strange behavior,

obvious enjoyment of the spotlight

and the very many unusual aspects of their crime scene,

something about this murder wasn't adding up to them.

But they were struggling because it wasn't adding up,

but then it wasn't leading them in the direction of the truth.

Yeah.

Now, back to Pam.

As far as she knew, she had planned every aspect of Greg's murder

perfectly, and she almost did, which is scary.

Yeah.

But what she didn't plan for was the impulsive stupidity

of teenagers.

Oh, yes.

Because in the months before the murder,

Billy had told a good number of his friends

about his sexual relationship with Pam.

And most of the time, they weren't even doing much

to hide their affair in public.

And in the weeks they had spent planning the murder,

Billy had told those same friends the plot to kill Pam's husband

so that they could be together.

And he told most of those friends

that what he believed to be true based on what Pam had told him,

Greg was abusive toward her.

He was going to be the hero that saved her.

So he's just spilling the beans left, right, everywhere.

Of course he is.

He's a child.

Yeah.

And as we know, some of the people

who he told about the plan had become participants.

Yeah.

And the ones who didn't, they just kind of thought

he was bluffing and trying to seem tough, which, like,

we've been there.

We've done that saying you know how to say that.

But the day after the murder, Billy and his friends

were back in school.

My god.

They just go back to high school.

They just went back to high school.

I'm pretty sure it was like their junior year.

My god.

So and before his first class even started,

Billy was telling his friends, Sal,

parks about what he'd done immediately.

Now, Billy and Sal had talked about the murder plot

a number of times before that day.

Billy had even shown Sal sketches of the condo's floor

plan that he made based on Pam's description.

Wow.

But for some reason, Sal never thought

Billy was going to go through with it.

Guys, guys, guys, you know, I can't.

But that morning, when Sal asked Billy

if he had gone through with the plan,

Billy nervously confirmed that, yup, they

had killed him the night before.

My god.

Now, later that day, Billy bought Sal lunch

with the money that he'd stolen from Greg's wallet,

just to prove it to him.

Up, up, up, up.

And by the end of that afternoon,

he had told pretty much almost all of his friends

the gnarly details about what had happened.

Now, Sal was worried now that he knew all the details,

he could be considered an accomplice.

So he was like, I'm just going to keep my mouth shut

about this entire thing.

Like, I'm not going to say anything.

I'm still like reeling about him buying lunch with Greg's money.

With Greg's money.

Yeah, this is just wild.

Now, just like Billy, Cecilia Pierce,

she knew this whole thing had happened at this point.

And she had been an instrumental part of being a part of it,

playing it.

So she found it difficult to keep what she knew to herself.

And on the morning of the murder, Pam had confided in Cecilia

that the boys were going to follow through the plan that night.

So the next day, a guidance counselor came up to Cecilia

because she knew that Cecilia had been close with Pam.

She called her into a meeting

and let her know what had happened to Pam's husband.

Oh, my God.

So Cecilia did her best to fake shock.

But later that night, when she got to her shift at Papa Geno's,

the secret was becoming too overwhelming for her.

And she ended up confiding in a coworker about it.

She told her coworker, Cindy, but what had happened to Greg.

And Cindy said, didn't you tell me about a friend

that was planning on having their husband killed?

Oh, my God.

And Cecilia said, oh, shit, I've forgotten I had told you that.

Couldn't even keep track of the people they had told.

What?

I forgot that I, shit.

Oh, my gosh, I told you that.

I forgot that I told you that.

Oh, my God.

Also, imagine eating a fucking pizza

that those two women had made for you

and that conversation happened above your glorious pizza.

I would not be happy.

Although Papa Geno's is not my fave.

Oh, I hate Papa Geno.

Well, it's the big tomato.

Sorry.

I mean, you can eat it all you want.

I'm no hate to Papa Geno's.

I mean, a lot of people love Papa Geno's.

But, oh.

Yeah.

Anyways, so Cecilia explained the rest of the story to Cindy.

And Cindy suggested it would be best to stay out of it entirely.

She was like, I don't think you need to tell more people about this.

I think you need to shut your mouth.

Yeah.

She basically said that if Cecilia had told her about it,

then other people could definitely find that out.

And one of them might go to the police,

so she should shut her fucking mouth.

My God.

But at the same time, Cindy there apparently

didn't take her own advice.

And a couple weeks later, she had some friends

over her apartment for drinks.

And she told all of them the entire story

about Pam, Billy, and Cecilia.

So there were two women there, finally some people

with sense in this fucking town.

And they were absolutely shocked.

So one of them, 39-year-old Louise Coleman,

went home and called the police.

Finally.

Oh, finally.

Finally, somebody has contacted the appropriate people

in this situation.

Finally, someone calls the police and says, Jesus.

It's weird.

Jesus Christ.

She would later tell a jury, Louise there, quote,

someone was killed and that bothered me.

To hear what I had heard, I figured any little bit

was going to help them.

Because at that point, police didn't know much of anything.

Like I told him, it's hearsay.

If it helps, it helps.

If it don't, it don't.

But I feel like I did my civic duty.

Which I'm like, yes, Louise, you did.

OK, thank you.

Pat Pat, Louise, Cecilia.

Good job.

Now, like the bad game of telephone it was, though,

Louise Coleman's tip to the Dairy Police

got a lot of the facts wrong.

But luckily, it was still enough to point investigators

towards Cecilia Pierce.

So Detective Sherwick's, excuse me,

paid a visit to Cecilia and joined by her parents.

They sat down for a formal interview.

And Cecilia told the detective that, yep, she did no Pam.

She met her through an internship in the media center.

But she said, I know nothing about the murder.

I insist.

I know absolutely nothing.

So then Pam is approached.

And she told detectives, oh my gosh,

Cecilia would not have anything to do with this.

Of course not.

It's like, yeah, but what about you?

Yeah.

But for her part, she seemed Pam there pretty unconcerned

about the fact that investigators were circling closer

and closer to her and her group of fucking teenage misfits

that she put together.

Yeah, it's like no one noticed this shit.

No one noticed it.

And now, even as they're encroaching upon them,

she's not worried about it.

No.

So by mid-May, she had gotten a large sum

from Greg's life insurance.

And she seemed in a hurry to spend it.

She bought clothes and shoes for Cecilia

in an obvious to all of us attempt to buy her silence.

Yep.

Then she went electronic shopping with Billy and his friends.

My god.

She also used some of the money to buy herself a new car.

She put down the first and last month's rent

on a condo in Hampton, closer to Billy.

Excuse me, closer to Billy's mother's house.

I was just going to say, this is so disgusting.

Fucked.

So she was doing her best to reign in this group of teens.

And for the most part, she was successful.

Cecilia would later say, she just really

was convinced that no one was going to listen to the boys

over an adult.

Like she thought she was going to have everybody

hook the up-sinker.

Of course.

But what wasn't in her control was the people

that the kids had already confessed to.

And Louise Coleman's tip had pointed the investigators

in the right direction.

But it would be a tip from one of the few honest teams

in the circle that would finally break the case.

So remember, Ralph Welch, Ray's cousin.

So Ray was the one that drove the car.

And Ralph had nothing to do with it.

He was just staying at JR's house.

He had heard about this.

So he had known about Pam and Billy's relationship

since it started, Ralph there.

He was, like I just said, one of the kids

living in the household.

And since he was a close friend of JR and Billy,

he was privy to all the information about what

had been going on.

But he was just trying to keep his head down

and stay out of any trouble.

He had gotten into trouble before,

and he was trying to stay on a narrow path.

OK.

So he heard about the murder and about his friend's

involvement, but he was still having trouble believing

that they had anything to do with it.

He was like, you guys are fucked.

You didn't do this.

But by early June, all the talk and boasting from JR, Billy,

and Ray had started to get to him.

And all the rumors about Billy killing Greg

started to seem more likely than they had to him before.

So he confronted them.

He said, did you do this?

And at first, they denied any involvement.

But eventually, they told him the whole story thinking

he wasn't going to tell anybody.

So by the time they finished telling the story, though,

he pretty much told them he didn't know what he was going

to do, but it wasn't something he was going to keep to himself.

He was like, you guys fucked up.

Yeah, like I'm going to be honest, like shit's going to go down.

He's like, I don't know exactly what I'm going to do,

but I'm going to do something to do something, though.

So the next day, Ralph tried to make Pete Randall

leave the Lattime house where he was staying.

OK.

So like two two guys here getting in a fight.

Yeah.

So they started fighting even more and it got physical.

OK.

They beat the shit out of each other for a few minutes.

Pete ended up storming off with JR and Ralph or excuse me,

with JR and Ralph went inside the house where JR's mom wanted

to know why he was all fucked up.

Like he obviously looked like he'd been in a fight.

Yeah.

And Ralph just blurted out to her.

They used Vance's gun to kill someone.

Vance is JR's dad.

So Diane, the mother, obviously, she

had a few follow up questions.

And once Ralph had gotten through the whole story,

including the part where JR stole one of his gun's dads

to kill, Greg, Vance Jr's father.

So JR's father, sorry, Vance Jr's father went

to check his gun collection.

There's a lot of players here.

OK.

So sure enough, he found that his 38 revolver had been cleaned

and he was not the one to have cleaned it.

So he took the gun straight to the Seabrook police

and the rest of the story slowly started to fall into place.

Now remember, his son stole this gun and this dad.

I have to say like he did like that's really heroic

and like what a fucking Sophie's choice to make there.

Absolutely.

Like, oh my god, my kid might be involved in killing somebody,

but I have to take this information to the police.

Yeah, it's like you can't just ignore it and hope it goes away.

He's one of the heroes in this story.

But some people would have, to be honest.

I mean, we've seen instances where that's happened.

Absolutely, we have.

So as soon as she heard the police were looking for her son,

Ray Fowler's mother dragged him to the police department,

another hero here.

There you go.

And once he was there, he wasted no time telling

the detectives the entire story.

He didn't spare any details, but of course,

he passed all the blame on his friends.

And he said, he had only gone along for the ride.

He had no idea they were going to kill someone.

Um.

He knew everything.

Um.

Sure.

He says lie.

Yeah, ding, ding, ding, ding, no.

So when they learned that Ralph fully intended

to go to the police, the other boys

fled to Connecticut in Pete's father's car.

They planned to continue driving south possibly

to Mexico or to South America.

But Pete called home to let his mom know they were safe.

And his dad got on the phone, and he had, like,

he didn't know about the murder yet.

But he was like, why the fuck did you steal my car

and you better turn it right the fuck around right now?

Hell yeah.

Pete's dad was not the kind of guy you wanted to go against.

So they all turned around and headed back to Seabrook

because daddy said, bring my car back home.

Oh my God.

Like, that's where we're at, you guys.

That's the age group we're at.

The lack of frontal lobe development

is really highlighted here.

They thought, oh yeah, I'll just steal my dad's car

and drive it to Mexico.

And he won't notice.

I'm sorry, what?

I'm sorry, what?

I'm sorry, what?

So once they got back home, each of the boys

struggled to tell their parents what had happened.

They were obviously leaving out all kinds

of important details.

They were using pseudonyms here and there.

And they were peppering the story with lies

to minimize their own involvement.

Now, Vance listened to his son's version of the events.

And even though he still didn't understand

what had actually happened or how JR had even

gotten himself involved in this,

he went back to the Seabrook Police Department

to let the detectives know that it seemed

like all of the boys were involved in this murder

in one way or the other, including his own son.

That's a hard hit.

So on the morning of June 11th, 1990,

a clerk from the Dairy Police Department

arrived in Seabrook carrying warrants

for the arrest of Billy, Pete, Ray, and JR.

They knew that their arrests were on the horizon,

so they all scattered, and they spent most of the day

just trying to avoid the police.

Oh, man.

Now, meanwhile, Dairy Police Captain Jackson

wanted to have another talk with Cecilia Pierce.

I think he saw that she was a bit of a weak point.

100% he saw that as a weak point.

So he called Cecilia's mother,

and Cecilia's mother said she was out for the day,

but she was gonna try to track her down.

She's like, oh, fuck, what are we involved in here?

Yeah.

So Mrs. Eaton, that's Cecilia's mother,

she figured her daughter would actually be at Pam's house

because that's how much time they were spending together.

That's so weird, ma'am.

I don't know if Cecilia's mom didn't realize

that Pam was like an authority figure

and maybe just thought she was like an older friend

because she's not that much older than Cecilia.

That's true.

That's very true.

I think she just didn't have all the facts.

Yeah, no, I'm like, no hate to like her parents

for not even thinking about it.

It's just wild.

But when you think about it afterwards,

you're like, oh, God, oh, fuck.

This relationship was like too much.

So Pam picks up the phone and she was like,

oh, Cecilia actually just left,

but let me go collect her and I'll bring her to the police.

But at that point, Mrs. Eaton had had it up to here

officially.

Officially.

She was like, I am real fucking tired of this strange hold

that you seem to have over my daughter.

Stay out of it and I will track down my own daughter.

So later she found Cecilia at a friend's house

and Mrs. Eaton called Pam and was like,

just so you know, we're going to the police station.

Now Pam yelled at Mrs. Eaton on the phone and said,

don't take her over until I get there.

Let me go with you and we can all go together.

I am a victim here.

I have a right to know everything that the police know

and they're not telling me anything.

I'm getting tired of being treated this way

and I want to know what's going on.

Oh, man.

Mama, you're a murderer.

Oh, man.

Like girly girl.

She is reckless.

Also, who the fuck do you think you are yelling at Mrs. Eaton?

So obviously she's trying to stay on top of things

and she wants to make sure Cecilia is not going to turn on her.

But Pam was telling the truth a little bit there.

The Dairy Police had actually stopped giving her

any information about this case.

Of course they did.

Because she kept going to the press

every time they gave her an update.

So they were like, okay, if you want to paint us this way,

we'll act this way.

So in that moment, Mrs. Eaton didn't care about Pam Smart

or her relationship with the Dairy Police.

She was like, if you want to meet us at the station,

meet us at the station, but we're going there now.

She's like, I don't know, I don't have time for this.

So they get to the station.

Cecilia continues to insist to the police

that she knows nothing about the murders.

She tried to even seem like she was disinterested

in being there.

Now Captain Jackson realized that Cecilia

wasn't really grasping the severity of the situation

she was involved in.

Oh yeah.

So he was like, you know what, let me fucking scare her.

So he starts making threats of charging her

with interfering with the investigation.

He's like, you want to play that game?

Let's go.

But at that point, Cecilia's mom didn't know

that's where this was headed.

So she put a stop to the interview.

She was like, no, we're done here.

Now in a private conversation with Cecilia's mother,

Jackson explained that he was simply playing bad cop.

He was just trying to get Cecilia to say what she knew.

Yeah, of course.

And he was like, we know that she doesn't have anything

to do with the murders, or we don't think she does,

or the murder, excuse me.

So Cecilia's mom was like, yep, I get it.

I still feel like she's gone through enough tonight

and we're not really going to get anywhere here.

So I will talk to her at home and try to get out the truth

and I'll get back to you.

So they were like, OK.

Yeah.

And I think they knew they weren't going

to get very far at that point.

But on their way out of the station,

Pam had been sitting there the whole time

waiting for them at the station.

And she went right up to them and was like, what's going on?

I need to know everything.

My god, she is like, she doesn't give a shit.

She's like a fly attracted to a big pile of shit.

She can't stay away.

So Cecilia was like, nope, nothing's going on.

They asked me the same questions that they did before.

But she said, like, don't worry about it, basically.

Yeah.

So that night, Diane Latime, late late time, excuse me,

JR's mother, she was like hunting them down

because she knows that the police are looking for these kids.

So she finds them hiding out in an arcade

in Salisbury, Massachusetts.

And she was able to convince them to turn themselves in.

But these motherfuckers were hiding out at an arcade.

Of course they were.

But it just like adds to the story even more

that you're like, oh my god, these are literal children.

And they thought they could just avoid the police

by playing a nice game of Pac-Man.

Yeah.

What is wrong with you?

Absolutely.

What?

Like you're just going to play pinball

to get through the fact that you just murdered somebody?

Absolutely, they are.

I literally can't.

That's so messed up.

I quite literally cannot.

But she was able to convince themselves

and they turned themselves in.

So news of the arrest broke a day later.

But because everybody arrested at that point was a juvenile,

there weren't a lot of details available.

And as far as the public was concerned,

it seemed like Greg's murder had been solved.

They were like, oh, OK, they got the people that did it.

Yeah, they were like, oh, hey.

Fantastic.

Now investigators in Derry, on the other hand,

were convinced that there was still a lot more

to this story than they were being told.

And literally all of them were like, yeah, Pam

has something to do with it.

This random band of teenagers didn't just come up

with this plan by themselves.

That's the thing.

It's like you really think they just came up with this

and did it.

And what would the motive be?

Exactly, that's the thing.

So the day after the arrests were made,

Pam called Loring Jackson.

She can't stay away.

My god, she's like asking to be caught.

Oh my god, at this point, literally.

Yes.

So she calls him and she's like, can I just

please have any kind of update?

She said, I'm afraid I know these kids.

And then she said, am I in any danger?

And Jackson was like, no, Pam, you're not in danger.

She's reaching out to ask if she is in danger

when she knows she set them up to kill her.

That is like a whole other level.

I don't know what she has as far as personality disorders

go, but there's a couple in there.

I won't armchair diagnose, but the manipulative, conniving,

gaslighting going on.

There's a lot going on there.

It's a lared.

There's some stuff.

It's a lared situation, but this is great.

I fucking love this.

So she's like, am I in any danger?

And he goes, he's like, no, Pam, you're not.

And she goes, how can you be so sure?

And he goes, because I know.

And so do you.

Oh, shit.

It's heating up in here, baby.

Mic drop moment.

So while the state attorney general's office

worked to get approval to try all the teens as adults,

that's what they were working on.

The media made their way to Seabrook.

They were shoving microphones and cameras

in the faces of anybody even remotely involved.

And then Pam was doing her absolute best

to just play the devastated widow,

betrayed by these students she had hoped to help

and project self-esteem.

Wow.

And she knew that the arrest of the four boys

definitely put her at risk, like she

was starting to get nervous here.

But what she didn't realize was that her good old buddy,

Cecilia Pierce, would actually be the biggest risk.

Because remember, police still aren't done with her.

No.

So in the week or so since her last interview

with the police, everything around Cecilia had changed.

Her friends had been arrested for murder.

Pam seemed more anxious than ever to keep Cecilia close by.

And worse than that, the Derry police

definitely knew that Cecilia knew something

she wasn't saying.

Damn.

She later told reporters, every night when I was in bed,

I'd get up every five minutes when I heard a car pull in,

seeing if it was the police coming to get me.

Oh, man.

Which I'm like, honestly good.

Because you knew a lot, need and session.

None of them were ready for this.

Nope, none of them.

So the position, she's starting to feel like this is impossible.

And she was like, I know that everything about the situation

was wrong, and I've been manipulated by Pam.

And she was like, in the past, she was like, oh my gosh,

Pam has been nothing but good to me,

and now I'm faced with this decision to betray her.

So she's sick over it.

But then at the same time, the angel on the side

is like, you need to do the right thing.

He need to betray Pam.

Exactly.

So Cecilia's unwavering loyalty to Pam

obviously was a part of Pam's plan all along.

That's why she spent so much time building trust

between her and these kids.

And that's obviously why she was testing that loyalty

in small ways leading up to the murder, like we saw.

But in the time since the arrests,

Cecilia had noticed a very large change in Pam's behavior.

And she was starting to question everything

she thought about their relationship.

In a later interview with Hard Copy,

she told them, Cecilia did.

Her lover was in jail and she didn't care.

How was I supposed to believe that she was actually my friend?

I could hang myself knowing what I know,

and she'd be relieved

because that's one less person who could tell.

Wow.

So she started to realize who Pam was.

And then to make matters worse,

everyone had been treating Cecilia so nicely

since the arrest, thinking that she was a victim

of this fallout and she's like, fuck, I know everything.

So between the kindness of her family and friends

and Pam's increasing coldness towards Billy,

Cecilia finally broke down and went to her mom

and just spilled her beans.

So obviously that got passed along to the detectives.

And the detectives and Derry, they were like, great,

this story confirms what we know.

Billy and Pete did the actual killing,

but it was Pam behind the murder of her husband.

But the problem was now,

how the fuck were they gonna prove that?

She wasn't there.

And there's no text messages or anything like that.

So they're considering their options,

but ultimately they decided that the best way

to secure a conviction would be for Cecilia

to get Pam on tape confessing to her role in the murder.

And Cecilia and her mother agreed to the plan.

Damn.

Because remember, her mother needs to sign off on this

because she's a juvenile.

Yeah, because they are children.

So Cecilia's first attempt came on June 19th

when the police attached a recording device

to the family's telephone.

They were hoping they could record a conversation,

like a phone conversation between Cecilia and Pam.

So Cecilia was giving it her all.

She wanted to win here.

But Pam was very guarded and she was denying

any romantic relationship between her and Billy.

Because I think she was like, they could bug our phones.

Yeah, of course.

She was a little ahead.

Yeah.

But at the same time,

she was also dodging Cecilia's references to Greg's murder.

So in the end, the call was a bust.

Yeah.

But in the weeks and months after the arrest,

Pam, she was playing it cool in public.

She was like, oh, I don't even think

these boys had anything to do with Greg's death,

like just playing it up, panning it up.

Yeah.

But at the same time,

she obviously must have known she was a suspect.

Rumors were starting to spread about Billy

having an affair with her.

In the back of her mind,

I think she knew her plan was shit all along.

Yep.

Also, like why would you be dumb enough

to have teenagers do this for you?

Truly.

It's only a matter of time

before somebody slips up and says something.

And here we go.

On July 12th, 1990,

Cecilia Pierce took a second run at Pam

in an attempt to get this confession.

And this time, she was wired with a microphone

and a recording device

for what the New Hampshire Attorney General's office

referred to as face-to-face one-party intercept.

Oh, damn.

I love it.

That sounds intense.

It is.

So that afternoon, Cecilia went to Pam's office

and she literally had a tape recorder running,

like somewhere in her.

And Pam, a media somewhere in her pocket.

She swallowed it.

I don't know.

So Pam rushes over to give her a hug,

which she must have been sharding herself.

Yeah.

Absolutely pooping her pants.

Truly.

And as she's hugging her,

Pam's hands come dangerously close

to brushing the microphone wires.

Like she was very, very close to being caught.

I'd be like, no touchy.

No touchy.

But the conversation ended up being like rambling.

There was a lot of weird chatting.

And she kind of alluded to some involvement

in the murder, but she didn't outright confess to anything.

Okay.

So a second meeting got set up for the next day

and Cecilia got reset up with a recording device.

And this time, they got what they needed.

Oh, shit.

So the second recorded conversation

with Pam was much more direct.

There were way more details about the case.

And now there was the potential for even more arrests

because more names were dropped.

Throughout the discussion, Pam went out of her way

multiple times to insist that Cecilia

would be arrested as a necessary if she went to the police.

She was like, just so you know, like you'll be in too.

So like, don't fuck me over.

Oh, shit.

But Cecilia has already talked to the police

and she knows that this is not true.

So she kept going.

["The Last Song of the Year"]

Now, so finally after what seems like hours,

investigators got what they needed.

And this is the little bit of it.

Cecilia says, so he's not gonna say

that you offered to pay him, right?

He's gonna say he knew about it before it happened,

which is the truth.

And Pam says, right.

Well, so then I'll have to say, no, I didn't.

And then they're either gonna believe me

or they're gonna believe JR, 16 years old and in the slammer.

And then who, me, with a professional reputation

and a course that I teach, you know, that's the thing.

Cecilia says, right.

And Pam goes, they're gonna believe me.

Wow, the confidence.

Boom, baby.

Wow, the dumb confidence.

It would turn out that Pam was wrong.

I was gonna say, they didn't believe her.

Incorrect, Key.

On August 1st, less than two weeks after

that recorded conversation with Cecilia,

Pam was approached by Detective Danielle,

I believe it's Pelletier, in her office,

in the building inside of the high school.

And she'd actually already spoken

with Pelletier a few times.

So as soon as she saw him,

she jumped up and was like excited to see him.

And he got very theatrical with it.

I can't even say I blame him.

He said, well, Pam, I have some good news

and I have some bad news.

The good news is that we've solved

the murder of your husband.

Oh my God, I love it.

The bad news is that you're under arrest.

Oh, he really went for it.

David, I were talking about it

and he was like, how many times do you think he practiced that?

Oh, 100% and I can't believe him.

No, absolutely.

I can't believe him.

I would be on the car ride there,

like talking to myself in the rearview mirror.

I would be saying it over and over again.

Let's go.

Got arrested at the high school.

Wow.

We love to see poetic justice.

So Pam was stunned,

but obviously she had to follow detective's orders

as she was handcuffed and let out of the building.

Yeah, I mean, you don't really have a choice at that point.

And there were several other detectives

from Derry and Hampton out there waiting in their car.

So this was like a sting operation.

Oh, shit.

And a journalist from Nashua

who had shown up at the school

after getting an anonymous tip,

he actually snapped several photos of Pam

being loaded into the back of the cruiser.

Ho, ho, ho, ho.

Yep.

I'm gonna look it up.

Look it up.

So the next day, August 2nd,

Pam was arraigned in Derry District Court

for what the prosecutor claimed was

promoting or facilitating the murder of her husband.

Now, in an affidavit filed with the county,

the attorney general's office said that Pam, quote,

aided William Flynn in the planning

or commission of the murder.

And the affidavit makes it clear that it was Billy,

not Pam, who fired the fatal shot.

Okay.

So the news came as a shock

to almost everyone outside of the investigation,

especially Greg's parents

who had to show up to this arraignment.

Now, in a statement given to the press

outside the courthouse,

Bill Smart, Greg's father, told the reporters,

she has taken a loved one from us.

And all I can say is if indeed she is guilty

that they teach her a lesson

and give her the maximum sentence

that the God and Lord above us would give her.

There you go.

Boom.

That says it all, I think.

I think so.

So a week later, there was a bail hearing

and Pam pleaded with the judge

to please allow her to be released on bail.

Girl.

She said, I have been incarcerated 12 days for a crime.

I did not commit.

I'm only 22 years old and I'm a widow.

I have gone through an immeasurable amount of pain

and suffering already.

And I would ask you,

if this court is worried about me fleeing,

I assure you I'm going nowhere.

I want to be in the courtroom

to prove that I am innocent of these charges.

Yeah, we totally believe you.

Like girl, I hope that you take up acting in prison.

You're bad at it though.

You're pretty bad at it.

So her defense lawyers argued

that the arrest in the entire case against her

was based on innuendo hearsay, double hearsay,

contradictions and statements made

by an unidentified 16 year old intern

who was brow beaten into saying

the state's evidence was true.

That's a quote.

Wow.

The prosecution though was led

by assistant attorney general Cynthia White

and she disagreed.

She's like, no.

She argued that Pam could be heard

on the recording making several illusions

to her relationship with Billy

and her role in the affair

and quote, encouraging the teenager

to lie to the police about her knowledge of the murder.

Yeah, you know that whole thing.

Yep.

So the county superior court judge, Douglas Gray,

luckily sided with the prosecution

and ordered that Pam be held without bail until the trial.

Okay.

And in his decision, Gray wrote,

the words of the defendant on tape

served to bolster the state's position in two ways.

First, the statements are incriminating in nature.

And secondly, they lend credence

to the friend's prior statement to police.

Yeah.

So basically he's like, she admitted it and it makes sense.

And it lines right up with what we thought happened.

Yep.

So of course the press covering the case

were chomping at the motherfucking bit.

They overlooked some of the more important details

of the case, like the fact that Pam wasn't a teacher.

Yeah, the whole thing.

It didn't matter.

The nation was captivated.

It was the first time that anybody had really heard

of a case with details as shocking as these ones.

So people were like following super closely

for every last update.

And actually, fun fact here,

it was the first criminal trial in America

to be televised from beginning to end.

Oh, shit.

That's crazy.

Isn't that crazy?

On Monday, January 28th, 1991,

Billie pleaded guilty to second degree murder

and Pete and JR pleaded guilty to a charge

of being accomplices to second degree murder

in exchange for their testifying against Pam at her trial.

Which was supposed to start in early March.

The pleas were another blow for Pam's defense lawyers.

Their attempts to suppress the recorded conversation

had been denied.

And they were trying to contain the damage by the press,

which was like, that was gonna be hard to do.

And by Cecilia, who already had agreed to interviews

with everybody from Hampton Union to ABC News.

Oh, shit.

But still, her lawyers, Pam's lawyers,

tried to stay confident in front of the cameras.

They told reporters the claims from Cecilia

and the boys were garbage.

And they were confidently boasting, quote,

they're just more people to cross-examine,

we'll be ready to try the case.

Oh, whatever.

And then they said the thing that you should never say.

If you're gonna lose a case, we're looking forward to it.

Oh, that's not good.

I just feel like that's never good.

No.

So, Pam kept maintaining that she was entirely innocent

of any charges.

But in the seven months since her arrest,

the media coverage had allowed the public

and probably any jury member anywhere near here

to form an opinion on their own.

People were pretty sure she was guilty.

And that was pretty much confirmed for them

when a month before the trial started,

Pam was indicted for attempting to solicit

another inmate at the New Hampshire State Prison for Women

to kill Cecilia Pierce before she could testify.

Oh my God.

Cause you know, that wouldn't look suspicious or anything.

Wow.

Mama.

She's reckless.

Reckless.

She is so reckless.

What a monstrous human being.

Literally indicted in the middle of a murder trial

for soliciting another fucking murder.

She is a monstrous human being.

She's a cuckoo nutman.

So her trial started on March 4th, 1991

in Exeter, New Hampshire.

The state's case was led by Assistant Attorney General

Diane Nicolosi, I believe is how you say it.

And Pam continued to be represented by Mark Sisti

and Paul Toomey.

Now from the moment the trial began,

the courtroom was, like I said, packed with reporters

from print and television media.

And even though there had been multiple criminal trials

in the past, like I said, this one was the first

criminal trial to unfold on television in real time,

beginning to end.

And the start of this trial actually coincided

with the debut of Court TV.

Oh shit.

This was like the first thing that happened on Court TV.

Oh wow.

That's crazy.

So in her opening statement to the jury,

Nicolosi laid out the facts.

On the evening of May 1st, 1990,

Billy Flynn, acting under the direction of his lover,

Pam Smart drove to Derry where he and Pete Randall

murdered Greg Smart and tried to make it look

like it was a robbery.

And the attorney there explained to the court

that Billy's motivation was Pam and his worry

that if he didn't go through the murder,

she was gonna leave him.

And then went on to explain that Pete Randall

and the other boys in the getaway car,

they were motivated by money.

Okay.

Now finally, even though she wasn't in the room

when the murder happened, Nicolosi made it clear

that the only reason Greg Smart was murdered by Billy

and Pete was because Pam had lied, manipulated,

and orchestrated the entire thing.

Of course.

She was like, Pam did this willingly, intentionally,

and even when she was presented with multiple opportunities

to call this off, she kept going.

Double down.

She said she was determined to be free of Greg

and she wanted the money from his life insurance policy,

which was very easy to prove, was what she did with it.

Now, the defense attorney, Mark Siste,

I believe so you say it, said,

it should be obvious we don't agree on much

or on the evidence they claim they're going to place

before you.

Like, yes, we know that.

That's why you're the defense attorney.

That's kind of how court works.

Thank you for telling us.

Thank you so much for that.

The obvious.

Yes, thank you for that.

Now, he didn't really dispute the fact that Pam was guilty

and also really didn't try to prove her innocence

with his own information.

Instead, he was just trying to undermine

the prosecution's case, like make them doubt that.

He paid specific attention to the fact

that the most damning testimony was going to come

from the killer themselves or the killers.

And he said that they were only testifying

as part of a plea agreement for a lesser sentence,

which would put doubt in the jury's mind, of course.

Of course.

And then he went on to tell them

that what the prosecution plan to present

was going to be, quote,

one of the most vile concoctions ever assembled

in one courtroom in the state of New Hampshire.

Wow, that's intense.

They always get so theatrical with it.

I was going to say that's like very exaggerated.

Yeah.

And then finally, he ended by saying

that Greg's murder was the sole responsibility of three,

and this is a quote, quote,

three cold-blooded thrill killers

fueled by sex, obsession, jealousy, and mental illness.

Wow, okay.

I was like, yeah, I think you're talking

about your client, brother.

Yeah, I think so.

So the next day, the Patrick, sorry,

the state called Patrick Pete Randall as its first witness.

His description of the events on the night of Greg's murder

were so matter of a fact and so brutal

that Judge Gray actually had to stop the testimony

at one point so that Greg's mother

could be helped out of the courtroom.

Oh, God, that's awful.

He explained, quote,

I was supposed to cut his throat,

but I couldn't do that because of the things he said.

I just couldn't do it after that.

Wow.

Yep.

Now, JR, last time there,

the second witness to be called by the state

confirmed the details given

in the prosecution's opening statements

and in Pete's testimony,

but he went on to add even more details about Pam

and her relationship with Billy.

He told the jury, quote,

she just kept asking how she should act

when she discovered Greg's body.

She didn't know whether to scream,

run from the house, or call the police.

What?

We just told her to act normally.

I can't believe that she was like,

how do you act when someone that you're supposed to love

is found murdered in your home?

Hey, 16-year-old friend.

How should you act?

What should I do?

Yeah.

Like, you can't even muster that up.

Like, you did marry this man.

You did, like, love him.

You wanted to have children with him,

or no, well, she didn't.

He wanted kids with him.

You can't just, like, muster up some kind of, like,

well, what would happen if you loved someone

and they got murdered?

Right.

Like, really, you can't...

Wow. What?

Couldn't conjure that one.

And you're a 22-year-old woman

asking a couple of 16-year-old boys how you should act.

Of course.

In what world?

So, it was clear, obviously,

that the prosecution was attempting to betray

or just, like, showing that Pam

was a narcissistic mastermind.

And the defense was trying to do the same,

but they were trying to point it

as the three boys were the mastermind and crazy people.

Of course.

Now, Sissy pointed to the arrest reports,

which included the boys laughing and singing

on the way back to Seabrook after the murder.

So, he's like, look there.

Look at how callous they are.

Yeah, look how fucked up they were.

But the press noted that neither the witnesses

nor the accused quote,

ever displayed sadness or remorse for the killing.

So, he was trying to sit there

and pin the blame on one of them,

but the media's like, yeah,

none of them seem that upset.

It doesn't seem like it to me.

Now, 10 days into the trial, into Pam's trial,

Billy Flynn was finally called to testify

for the prosecution.

His testimony basically said the same thing

that Pete and JR had already said,

but he was the one with all the sensational details

about his romance with Pam.

Of course.

And her reaction in the days before and after the murder.

He told the jury that Pam would later tell him

about finding Greg's body.

He said, she told me she couldn't get herself to cry.

Wow.

Like, you have been dating and married to this man

for years and you can't muster up anything?

That's cold-blooded.

He also told the prosecution

that his testimony betrayed a promise

that he had made to Pam a month before his arrest.

My guy.

He said, I told her I'd never tell on her

because I loved her.

Wow.

Yikes.

Wow.

Now, before his questioning was over,

Assistant Attorney General Paul Magiato asked Billy,

why did you say God forgive me before shooting Greg?

And Billy answered, because I didn't want to kill Greg.

I wanted to be with Pam

and that's what I had to do to be with Pam.

Oh my God, that's so fucked up.

It's so fucked.

I actually have goosebumps saying that.

Yeah, like that truly, like that's fucked up.

It's like for him to say, I didn't want to do that,

but I did it for her.

And it's like, oh, like the amount of lives

that she just straight up shattered in every way.

She turned a kid into a killer that wasn't a killer.

Literally.

Crazy.

That's fucked up.

Absolutely insane.

And that's, I didn't want to kill Greg.

I just wanted to be with Pam.

That tells you?

Everything.

Everything, like him saying those few sets of words

says a million words.

Wow.

So the defense on cross-examination

tried to make it seem like Billy

had an unreciprocated obsession with Pam.

No.

And he misunderstood and agreed with them

and said, she was the first girl I ever loved

and I didn't want her to leave me.

Oh my God.

So it's just so sad.

It's sad all around.

So the most damning evidence came in the last days

of the trial when jurors finally heard

the recorded conversation between Cecilia and Pam,

which then was followed by testimony from Cecilia.

On recording, you can hear Pam tell Cecilia,

I'm afraid one day you're going to come in here

and you're going to be wired by the fucking police

and I'm going to be busted.

I would shit my pants.

I would have sharded the biggest shard.

Yeah.

Oh my God.

Wow.

As she's sitting there.

Yeah, wired.

Oh Pam, you silly goose.

Like oof.

You don't know how close you were.

Oh my God.

Now across the two tapes allowed into evidence,

Pam can also be heard repeatedly admitting to the affair,

manipulating Cecilia into remaining silence,

and strongly alluding to the fact

that she was the one behind the murder.

So on March 22nd, 1991 now,

after 13 hours of deliberation,

the jury found Pam smart,

guilty of being an accomplice to first degree murder,

conspiracy to commit murder,

and tampering with a witness.

In the end, multiple jurors would tell the press

more than anything else.

It was the tapes that convinced them of her guilt.

One juror told the Boston Globe,

it was a very, very difficult decision for us.

I didn't want it to turn out this way,

but the evidence, the tapes, and the testimony

proved in our minds that she was guilty.

Yeah, of course.

And other jurors were convinced

because of Pam's demeanor and her attitude on the stand,

and just how she acted in the courtroom in general.

According to another juror,

everyone commented that Pam Ellis Smart looked like a statue.

Her coldness was very striking.

Ooh, creepy.

Yeah.

Now even when she was sentenced to life

without the possibility of parole,

she sat there motionless

with absolutely no expression on her face.

Yeah, something wrong with that one.

Something real, real with that one.

Greg's parents, on the other hand,

were sobbing with relief.

Judy Smart told reporters, it feels great.

She got what she deserved.

The first thing we're going to do

is go to Greg's grave as a family

and tell him what happened so he can rest in peace.

Oh, that hurts my heart.

It's so sad.

Now friends of the family and all of the boys involved

were also pleased with the verdict.

Karen Knight, who was actually a friend of the Flynn family,

told reporters she not only took Greg's life,

she also took Billy's future,

and that's not something he can ever get back.

No sentence the court could put on her

is high enough for the injustice that she's caused.

Yeah, I mean, it's so true.

It really is.

Now just after sentencing,

Pam was immediately sent to the New Hampshire State Prison

for Women to begin serving her sentence.

And in early 1993, she and her attorneys, of course,

appealed the verdict to the state Supreme Court.

Basically, they argued that the publicity

surrounding the case fucked the whole thing up

and that Pam never had a chance to receive a fair trial.

It's like, girl, she was on tape.

Exactly.

But they were like, and thus her constitutional rights

have been violated.

So the court recognized the media coverage before and during

the trial.

They were like, yeah, it was unprecedented in state history,

but we disagree with you.

They said, both the 16th Amendment

of the United States Constitution

and Part 1 Article 15 of New Hampshire Constitution

guarantee the right of a defendant to a trial

by a fair and impartial jury.

This, however, does not require that the jurors be totally

ignorant of the facts and issues involved.

And these days of swift, widespread, and diverse

methods of communication, an important case

can be expected to arouse the interest of the public

in the vicinity.

And scarcely any of those best qualified to serve as jurors

will not have some informed impression or opinion

as to the merits of the case.

Whoa.

Which, I mean, makes sense.

Now, the appeal also challenged the recorded conversations,

though, between Cecilia and Pam.

Pam's attorneys claimed that the police

had pressured Cecilia into consenting to the recording,

and therefore it should have been excluded from evidence

and not presented at the trial.

Wow.

But the court also disagreed with this challenge

and wrote back basically saying that Cecilia's mother was

present for all of the interviews.

Yeah, no.

She was able to advise Cecilia the whole way through.

Yep.

And Cecilia herself said that the police explained everything

to her, and both she and her mother

signed all the necessary consent forms.

Yeah, no.

So that was a bust.

Obviously, in the end, the state Supreme Court

sided with the prosecution in the appeal,

and the lower court's original ruling was upheld.

Nice.

In the end, Billy Flynn was sentenced to 40 years

in adult prison with a minimum of 12 years served

before he'd be eligible for parole.

He ended up serving his sentence at the main prison

in Warren, Maine, and he applied for a sentence reduction

in 2007, which was denied.

In 2014, he got moved to a minimum security facility,

and in March 2015, he did end up getting paroled

and was allowed to re-enter the community.

Wow.

Sadly, the smart family was entirely against this.

But the parole board chairwoman at the time,

Donna Styrac, I believe is how you say it,

commented on Billy's behavior in prison,

saying, I've not seen such remarkable accomplishments.

That's not something we ordinarily see.

So at the very least, hopefully, his frontal lobe

developed a bit more, and he figured out

how to make better decisions in life,

and hopefully, he will be a better person.

Here's to hope.

He pour one out.

In all forms.

Now, Patrick Pete Randall received a similar sentence

as Billy, and he also served his sentence

at the main state prison.

He ended up being granted parole in April of 2015

and was released into the community in June of that year.

OK.

J.R. Latttime, who pleaded guilty to a lesser crime of being

an accomplice to murder, he was sentenced to 30 years

in prison to be served again at main state prison.

He was paroled in 2005.

Wow.

And in early 2023, he actually petitioned the court

to have the rest of his sentence suspended, saying, quote,

he has a wife at a full-time job and is making every effort

not to waste his second chance.

The court actually has yet to make a decision on that.

Wow.

Now, Ray Fowler, the cousin there,

he did eventually plead guilty to conspiracy to commit

murder and attempted burglary.

He got a combined sentence of 30 years,

but he was paroled in 2003 after he served 11 years

of that sentence.

He ended up though being sent back to prison just a year later

because he violated the terms of his parole

by leaving New Hampshire to go visit his girlfriend

in Massachusetts.

But he got released on parole again one year later,

and his parole officially ended in 2013.

And according to prison authorities,

he, quote, had no problems behaving in prison

or else we wouldn't have paroled him.

So there's that.

OK.

Cecilia Pierce, she tried to go back to her life

in New Hampshire, but because the trial was so public,

she had a really hard time.

And she ended up moving not too long after the trial

to Jefferson City, Missouri.

And then a few years after that, she actually

moved back to Seabrook and finally settled in Albany,

where she actually works now as a registered nurse.

Wow.

She was among the most high-profile witnesses in the case,

and she actually ended up getting a lot of negative attention

because of all the interviews that she did with the press

and because she ended up selling her story

to a production company.

Oh, shit.

In 2016, she told reporters, people

think I got $120,000.

She said the truth was that she got $10,000, which

I was like, yeah, $10,000 for being a spineless jellyfish.

Yeah, it's like, OK, though.

Now Pam, since she's been incarcerated,

she talks to the press as often as she possibly can.

Of course she does.

She still maintains her innocence,

and she's still petitions for her release.

No one believes you.

No.

In 2016, she told reporters, I would like people

to think of me as a human being.

I am not the caricature that people

think some evil person.

No.

Request denied.

Yeah, that's absolutely not.

Now, as of 2023, she is currently

serving her sentence in a New York prison,

and she has exhausted all of her appeals.

And as of February 2023, she and her lawyers

are still trying to petition the state Supreme Court

to hear her appeal for a sentence reduction,

but they don't seem very interested.

It's a no from them.

Yeah, it's a no from them.

When they officially denied the request,

they cited Pam's ongoing refusal to accept responsibility.

And that was her last hope for a sentence reduction.

Cue up the tiniest violin in the world.

Now, she emailed her supporters, which, if you're one of them,

get absolutely wrecked.

Seriously.

Saying that the decision was quote unquote,

political question mark.

How so question mark?

The question mark is me.

She said, the death penalty would

have been more merciful than this.

Nothing will ever be enough for New Hampshire

to say I'm a human being deserving of anything more

than being locked up in a cage like an animal for the rest

of my entire life.

You orchestrated the murder of a man.

Yeah, go away.

And you had a sexual relationship

with a minor as an adult.

Yeah, you're a pedophile, so like, shh.

You did some stuff.

Yeah, it's not political, girlfriend.

No, it's just yuckas.

Yep.

Now, when Billy was released, Greg's older brother, Rick,

told the Boston Herald, I think he did his time.

He was at a young age.

Don't get me wrong.

I'm not saying he shouldn't have been punished,

but I want to put this behind me,

and I'm sure he wants to put it behind him.

Wow.

He went on to say that Pam should never be released.

100%.

Unfortunately, Greg's mom, Judy, passed away less than 10

years after Greg was killed.

Her son's murder absolutely destroyed her.

And Greg's father, too, he passed away in 2010.

But his brother, Rick, told the Herald,

he felt as though his father would agree with him

that Billy did his time.

And he ended the interview saying,

maybe someday I would like to speak to him, meaning Billy,

just so I could find out how exactly what happened

from someone who was there.

I kind of want to know, but at the same time,

I just want to move on.

He took our brother and my parents' son at a young age.

I would hope that by now he would realize what he did,

and I think he probably does.

He's had a lot of time to think about it.

Whether he'd be honest with me about that, I don't know.

It wouldn't change my opinion about him getting out,

but if I was him, I wouldn't try and squander it.

Wow.

That is a tough dude.

That is a decent human being right there.

It really is.

Wow.

It just goes to show you don't know how you would feel

until something like this, God forbid, happens to you.

Yeah.

But mad respect to Rick.

For real, a lot of respect to Rick.

So much respect.

And then obviously, this has been made into countless movies.

Of course it has.

I think Nicole Kidman played Pam at one point,

which was a very generous compliment.

Yeah, it was.

Pam Tolso played her in another movie,

again, a very generous compliment.

I think we should just next time hire a dumpster

and put a blonde wig on it and see what happens.

Or you know, like this, don't make another one.

Or don't make another one.

There's always that.

Don't make another one.

That's a good plan.

We've had enough.

So yeah, that is the wild freaking case

that is Pam smart and the murder of Greg smart.

What a sad story.

It really is.

Through and through.

Because they're two people

that should never have gotten married.

No, never.

So sad that they didn't just like get to divorce

like a normal couple.

That's the thing.

Because they absolutely, I think Greg was starting

to go in that direction.

And it's so sad.

There's so many like times where either

they should have just divorced

and that should have been it.

Or in that moment when all those kids

realized that they didn't want to do this.

I wish they had just not done it.

I agree.

They just stood up for what they're,

something inside of them was saying

and just listened to it.

Right.

It must be crazy.

How to spine.

I wish anybody in this story had a spine.

Would have been great.

Truly.

That would have been awesome.

It would have been fantastic.

But as always guys, we hope you keep listening.

And we hope you keep it weird.

But that's where that you're a spineless jellyfish

who decides to murder somebody

because you want to be with a lady that is kind of a pedophile.

Don't be a dick.

Don't be a dick.

Don't do it.

Love you.

Hey, Prime members.

You can listen to Morvid early and ad free on Amazon Music.

Download the Amazon Music app today.

Or you can listen ad free with Wondery Plus and Apple podcasts.

Before you go, tell us about yourself

by completing a short survey at Wondery.com slash survey.

Machine-generated transcript that may contain inaccuracies.