Morbid: Episode 463: The Pamela Smart Case (Part 1)

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Hey, weirdos, I'm Alina, I'm Ash, and this is Morbid.

There's a fucking fruit fly in my face and he's about to catch these goddamn hands.

It's fruit fly season.

Ew, get the apple cider vinegar out, fellas.

Get it out, everyone.

I'm not in these little bitches.

It's that time, yee.

Someone's going to be like, I love fruit flies and you shouldn't kill them, you bitches.

No, they're not great.

I'm sorry.

Yuckas.

I'm sorry.

I'm not a fan.

I will never be a fan.

Just like I'll never be a fan of House Centipedes.

Oh, God.

Yeah.

Even though we got to see a lot of our network babies the last week.

Yo, Bebes.

Yeah, and I was talking to Sean from Mostly Horror.

Go listen to it.

It's great.

And he was saying he would much prefer a House Centipede over a cockroach.

And I said, I would take neither, please.

You know what I just heard in my head?

Choose your fighter.

That's yes.

That's basically the conversation we had and I can't choose.

I don't want either.

No, that's a Sophie's choice.

I can't do it.

I can't do it.

No.

And actually yesterday, this is pretty funny and also embarrassing.

Oh, I like the story.

I was getting, I was gay, it was Mother's Day, so I got my like allotted, you know, however

much time just by myself to get ready.

Like that was my like any time.

I just want to take a shower alone, like without kids being like, hello, like can I ask you

questions while you're showering and just like put makeup on, do my hair.

You look super cute in your hair.

I was like, damn, appreciated.

That's what happens when I get uninterrupted time to do my hair.

But I was doing that and I had picked up my towel to get something in my hair tie, a black

hair tie fell out of it onto the bathroom floor and then somehow it rolled on its side.

I've seen that.

So it rolled very quickly across the floor.

I thought it was some kind of awful bug that fell out of my towel and I yelped so loudly.

I don't blame you.

I have never yelped like that for like a natural reaction.

You just yelped.

I yelped straight up.

Yelped like my dogs.

It was like I can't even recreate it because it was just a real like organic nervous system

response.

Can happen.

You don't even know of.

But when it settled on the floor and I said, oh, that's a hair elastic.

I was very embarrassed all by myself.

That's funny though.

It was funny, but it was very embarrassing.

No one was there to witness it, but it was embarrassing.

Did you lull it yourself?

I did.

I laughed immediately afterwards.

But I was like, damn, that was really ridiculous.

And then you look in the mirror and you're like, that's a moment we just had.

Yeah, literally.

Like I looked at myself and I was like, don't tell anyone that you are telling everyone here.

I am.

That's hilarious.

Yeah.

That's how afraid I am of things that run really fast on the floor.

I don't like it.

Nobody needs that many legs.

No, no, like thank goodness I have two dogs now who will eat everything that runs across

the floor.

I don't want them to eat a house and a pizza.

Yeah, they're fine.

They're good.

How do we change the subject?

They're also going to be fucking huge.

These dogs.

What are you even going to be?

They already are massive.

They're getting huge and they're just gloops and I love them.

They're like 35 pounds now.

Yeah, they're like huge.

Bickham's McGee's.

They're getting big.

And they're going to be like a hunnit pounds.

Those are my ladies.

Those are my hell hounds.

200 pounds of bad assery.

Oh yeah.

They are.

They're literally going to be 100 pounds each, I think, and like ever take.

Basically, they're going to and they are already like ready to protect my kids with

their lives.

Oh, yeah.

I'm just going to train them to like eat people alive.

I'm totally kidding.

So don't call like an animal shelter or something.

I don't know.

I'm not training them to eat people.

Don't worry.

No, no, never.

They just eat like dog food.

Yeah.

And like they'll just eat you if you're a dick.

Yeah, don't be a dick.

Yeah, because they'll eat you.

Don't be a dick because my dogs will eat you.

And Sidney will eat your ass.

So I'm just kidding, everybody, but they're great.

And you know, now I think it's time to get into some true crime because we have had our

chitty chat or a little chit chat, a little chit chat, chit chat, pit pat.

Yeah, this is honestly a long one.

Settle in.

And it's going to be a Tupada.

Oh, we got a Tupada.

So get ready for a cliff hang of my guys.

Oh my goodness.

All right.

I'm ready.

We're going over.

Especially because it's like, you know, like five years of morbid, holy shit, let's do

big cases.

Alina did five parts of the HH Home series, which if you haven't listened to that, eat

yourself back there.

And now I'm doing a really big story also about somebody from New Hampshire.

Look at that.

Except my whole thing takes place in New Hampshire.

Oh, she doesn't like vibe around the country.

Thank goodness she doesn't.

Or the world I should say.

Nope.

Nope.

Nope.

She doesn't do any of that.

We're going to be talking about Pamela Smart today.

You know that name.

You know that name.

I feel like a lot of people, like at least here in New England, are familiar with that

name.

Yeah.

But if it's a name you've never heard of or it doesn't ring a bell quite yet, we're

going to stat at the beginning.

Here it is.

Here it is, honey.

So one of the key people at the center of the story, obviously, is Pamela Pami.

I believe her maiden name is Wojas or Wojas.

Okay.

I tried to look it up and it like, nope, nowhere.

They were like, no.

I type in W-O-J-A-S pronunciation and it gives you many, many pronunciations for every

other word.

I love that.

Yeah.

So I tried.

You gave it a shot.

I watched her do it.

She did.

It was live.

I was here.

Yeah.

So anyways, Pam Pami was born on August 16th, 1967 in Miami, Florida.

She was the second of three children born to John and Linda, Wojas, Wojas.

There you go.

Now, John and Linda, they had gotten married pretty young and in the early years of their

marriage and as parents, they struggled to make ends meet, but both of them worked super,

super hard.

John worked at a printing company and Linda was a stenographer.

Whoa.

I know.

We got stenographers again.

Stenographers in the house.

Wow.

But so they both worked like super, super hard and eventually that hard work paid off

and they were both able to kind of climb that corporate ladder of it.

Good for them.

So now they were more like upper middle class and they had money to spend on their kids

that their parents never really had to spend on them.

But at the same time, they were living in late 60s, early 70s Miami.

And while their neighborhood was a safe place to live, the rest of Miami was not exactly

the safest at this point in time.

Violent crime was on the rise.

Social tensions were flaring.

So John and Linda were going back and forth throughout the years deciding on whether

they should stay or if they should move back to mass where they had both grown up.

Masking.

You say.

Massachusetts.

Massachusetts.

I know that place.

But the decision kind of made itself for them when the riots in Miami started.

Now, if you're not familiar with the Miami riots, they did take place in 1980 after an

all white jury acquitted four policemen who had beaten a black man, Arthur McDuffie to

death, which like really scary how history repeats itself.

They were like, yeah, we should get out of here.

Yeah.

So they had both grown up actually in Lowell, Massachusetts.

And they were so weird to hear like, I know, you know, not a lot of like our stories are

this close to no.

And this one's like, I was in New Hampshire this past week.

Like I was like in this area.

Yeah.

So they had both grown up in Lowell and they would always take their kids to New Hampshire

during summer vacation.

So after thinking about it for a while, they decided, you know, why don't we move to New

Hampshire?

Like we love it so much.

We love to spend our summers there.

Why don't we move to Wyndham, New Hampshire?

And it was in 1980 that they decided to do that.

Now Wyndham was a safe, quiet town and the nearby areas provided a lot of job opportunities.

So they knew it was going to be like a good move.

Yeah.

John actually got a job at Boston's Logan Airport, which it was weird to write Boston's

Logan Airport because it's just Logan to us.

It's just Logan.

And he actually eventually became a pilot and flew commercial jets for Delta.

Wow.

Good for John.

Isn't that crazy?

That's badass.

And he was able to provide a lot for his kids, like as far as home and activities were concerned.

But because his job was as a pilot and he worked for a commercial airline, he did have

to travel a ton and he was away from the family for stretches of time.

Yeah.

That's a big toss up.

Yeah.

I'm always amazed at pilots.

Imagine just fucking flying through the air.

Like imagine being like, yeah, I just fly planes for a living.

That's my job is I just bring 180 people onto this plane and then I fly them across the

country.

And then I have to land it safely and do it all again like an hour later.

Like if you're a pilot listening, pour one out for pilots because my guys, my gals, like

you were.

Woo.

Also imagine how fun that would be.

Yeah.

I would love to fly.

Well, you can't.

But I would love to fly a plane.

I would love that.

I mean, I imagine if you are a pilot, you love to fly, so I'm sure it is a fucking blast

for them.

Just like yee-haw.

And also pilots always make me feel better whenever I talk to a pilot.

They're always very like good at making you understand how safe flying is.

I'm always like, I trust you.

Yeah.

I trust you with my life literally.

Because he would have trusted John.

I would have.

Another good John.

He did love.

Yeah.

I'm pretty sure.

Okay.

Cool.

I'm struggling with his family, especially like his wife and his kids because that's

what your family is.

But because he had to be away for so long.

And most of Pam's high school friends, they have a ton of memories about her mom, but

they don't really remember her dad that much because he was away.

Yeah.

Now some of those close friends, that is tough, but some of those close friends who did remember

Pam's dad really just remembered that he and Pam were never close.

One of those friends, Sonia Simon, would put it that Pam quote, didn't really have a close

relationship with her dad.

But then again, he really wasn't home much.

I think she thought he was kind of cheap, which is like, oh, I think he's just working.

He's trying.

And the thing is, from what I read at least, again, I did not grow up in this house.

I don't think he seemed very cheap.

I think it was more that he wanted his kids to know how it took hard work to make money.

Well they had lived through living pay tech to paycheck and dime to dime.

They know what it's like to have to stretch that dollar as far as you can.

So getting money after that, I think it's like you are automatically still in that mindset

of like, I need to make this last.

Yeah.

So you make smart decisions with your money, to be honest, they're just trying to make

it last.

And they're teaching their kids that like, for instance, Pam was to get a job when she

was 13.

And I think that was probably the age back then.

So I think she was like, why do I have to work so hard?

Yeah.

I'm not doing this yet.

It's like typical kid shit.

Exactly.

But I also can't imagine one of my kids describing our relationship is like, I wasn't really

close to her.

She was kind of cheap.

She was kind of cheap.

That would be like, oof.

I would think so.

You know, like that's a eek.

Yeah.

That's a knife to the heart.

Your bed.

Right there.

Yeah.

And also it's like, it's not like he was off on the weekends like gambling and like

picking up girls.

Yeah, he was working.

He was just being a pilot.

Yeah.

But like I said, Pam got a job when she was 13.

It doesn't sound like she was that happy about it.

But it was right when they moved to New Hampshire.

She worked part-time at a bakery and also a dairy queen, which like makes me want one

of those chocolate dipped clothes.

Oh yeah.

So fucking good.

The swirl.

Now later, people seem to think that Pam had it a little hard at home and they felt

like she grew up too fast, but these were like her friends talking.

Okay.

Those friends would point to little things like the fact that her room was very tidy,

spick and span at all times, and she didn't have posters hanging up for magazines or anything

like that.

Like you would expect, but it's like, if that's how hard it was, like, oh no.

Well, that's the thing.

It's like, okay, sure.

I guess that could be like, okay, well, that's a different way of having a room as a teenager.

Yeah.

But I also had some of my best friends that was with their room was like, and I know their

family life and it was perfectly fine.

Same here.

I literally wrote that kind of person.

Maybe she was just a minimalist.

Yeah.

That's the thing.

I'm a minimalist.

I'm a minimalist.

Always back to TikTok.

Always.

But either way, even though Pam had been uprooted and moved halfway across the country at a

pretty shitty time in her life and her home life was like maybe a little rigid, she still

maintained her personality.

She was known at school and in public as somebody who was assertive, outspoken and had a great

sense of humor.

She really had an easy time making friends, especially because she moved when she did.

Some people might struggle with that, but she did not.

She went to a high school with over 2,000 students because the high school that she

went to, it was like in a smaller town, so they take kids from the surrounding towns

and it's one of those kind of high schools where it's like multiple towns in one, which

is never fair when you play them in sports.

I was just going to say, we have one that like in Massachusetts.

This is in New Hampshire.

This is in New Hampshire.

So it's not the same school.

I was like, is this the one I'm making?

But we have one in Massachusetts that I used to hate playing in softball because it was

just like, they got more pickens here.

Way more pickens and they always fucking creamed us in softball.

So embarrassing.

They also had one pitcher that fucking loved to hit people on purpose.

Was that pitcher me?

No.

No, but she would always hit me and I would get so pissed.

Anyways, enough reminiscing about softball, Pam went to a high school like that.

She was among one of the most popular students, which is really saying something, I guess,

with all those students.

Yeah, with all those students, you know.

Her sophomore year, she became the class president and she also earned a spot on the

cheer team.

All good things.

Yeah.

All things that are good.

But at the same time, she still had what people would call her dark side.

Her dark passenger, a la Dexter.

Yes.

One of her classmates after they graduated said about her, I think she was an insecure

person.

I don't think she thought she was better than everyone else, but she wanted people to think

she was.

I know a lot of people like that.

We all do.

Now, Pam always wanted to be the center of attention, especially if that attention was

coming from guys and she was known to be super aggressive if she thought somebody was stepping

on her toes, no matter what the situation was.

If it took something she thought was hers, you were done for.

Now, you can argue that maybe her possessiveness came from a place of knowing that she worked

hard for something and she wanted to guard that thing that she had worked so hard to

achieve.

But by all accounts, she never really did work that hard for anything she had.

Her father would later say, quote, Pam was the kind of kid who could get good grades

in Excel without putting in all that effort.

You know, the kind of kid you always hated in high school.

Pam would get the A with one quarter of the effort.

Damn.

Which, like, is kind of relatable because I didn't study that much, but I always did

pretty well in school.

Relatable.

I totally get that.

But it's also been said that she did what she wanted to do when she wanted to do it,

no matter what the effect was on anybody else.

Oh, that's not good at all.

We don't love that.

No.

Steven Sawicki, I believe is how you say it, he wrote Teach Me to Kill, which is a great

reference on this case.

I would definitely read it.

He wrote, Pam was always the student who would steer the classroom discussion away from whatever

the teacher had planned on talking about.

Hold on.

I fucked that up.

I'm going to start that over.

Pam was always the student who would steer the classroom discussion away from whatever

the teacher had planned to talk about to what Pam wanted.

She often undermined them to draw attention to herself.

Wow.

That would annoy the shit out of me if I was the teacher.

I would be really pissed.

Yeah.

I would not like that at all.

He also wrote that as her high school career went on, school officials were catching on

to Pam's ways.

She was suspected to have rigged the election that won her class president sophomore year.

She rigged an election.

Allegedly.

Allegedly.

She did not run again her junior year, but she did rig the election allegedly as sophomore

year.

They also think that, they also think, I just, they also thought that Pam may have stolen

money from the class funds, like she was skimming off the top while she was president.

She was a straight up politician.

She was drinking on school grounds.

She was a straight up politician.

She was.

She really was.

She said, I'm ready for the White House.

Let's go.

Honestly.

All the way to the top.

They were like, we suspect that she rigged the election, skimmed off the top, and was

like real boozy while doing so.

Yeah.

It's like, give that girl a seat in the Senate for real, honestly.

Well, the adults around Pam were questioning her behavior and finding her attitude pretty

disrespectful.

Her friends were starting to idolize her.

Oh, Jesus.

She was a bad bitch on their eyes.

Oh yeah, a bad bitch alert.

To them, she was this super cool metal chick who worshipped Van Halen and prioritized always

having a good time over everything else.

We're not here for a long time.

We're here for a good time, my guys.

Tinnin' here, guitar riff.

Tinnin' here.

No, according to her senior yearbook, Pam's greatest life pursuit was sweet.

Pam was, quote, to dance the night away with David Lee Roth and singer Van Halen for those

that don't know.

Oh, thank you.

Wow.

Yeah.

What a pursuit.

Yeah.

An old friend, Laura, talked to reporters about Pam in 1991, and she told them that Pam was,

quote, extremely energetic, very involved in always smiling.

Everyone wanted to be close to her.

I guess they felt that some of her power would rub off on them.

Hmm.

So just like, it was a power thing.

Very varying degrees of people's opinions on Pam.

But those not infatuated with her started hearing rumors about her being a little promiscuous.

Cue up Nellie's promiscuous, Nellie Fertado, right?

Promiscuous?

Yeah.

Yeah.

You're right.

Yeah.

Right?

It's Nellie Fertado and the guy.

Yeah.

Am I throwing you off?

Didn't think so.

Nope.

Yeah.

Oh, my God.

I'm screaming right now, and I feel so bad.

Everybody might be screaming in a second, too, because I also didn't look up this pronunciation

by accident.

But some classmates called her Seca or Seca.

It was a reference to an adult film actress, Seca, known as the Platinum Princess of Porn.

Oh, yeah.

I can't, I don't know what that is, but Timberland.

Timberland.

That's what it was.

My goodness.

I almost, I was like, it's not Timberlake.

I don't know.

It's Timberland.

Oh, Timberland was like in every.

Ma loves Timberland.

Cool.

I almost said music.

That's what I meant.

Cool music.

He was in every cool music.

He was in every cool music of the time.

Oh, make that.

No, he was, but yeah.

Yeah.

Even Ma likes him.

She does.

She loves him.

Yeah.

But yeah, I don't know who Seca or Seca is.

Well, she's the Platinum Princess of Porn, or she was back then.

Cool.

She called her that because she was a little promiscuous girl.

Damn.

But outwardly, she actually seemed to embrace the nickname.

Other students, they skipped the references, and they simply referred to her as Wham Bam

Thank You Pam.

I'm not, I'm not joking.

I'm not joking.

They called her Wham Bam Thank You Pam, which just reminds me of Kesha.

It just reminds me of the office with Pam Beasley.

There you go.

And now, instead of saying Bam Bam, he says, Pam, Pam, I like that.

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Now Pam's high school boyfriend, who in my opinion sounds like a grade A douchebag,

he would later tell the Boston Globe, wild, about Pam saying, he would tell her, he would

talk to them about her, and he would say, she was a wild, wild girl.

We were doing everything your parents tell you not to do.

You're so cool.

Oh, it gets worse.

What cool guys.

It gets so much worse.

They dated from the beginning of their senior year in September until May, and he was apparently

the one to break things off one day in the school parking lot, and literally told the

Boston Globe, I just got sick of her.

That's terrible.

That's how I was in high school.

Oh man, everybody, watch out for this cool guy.

I'm like, I have a feeling that's where you peaked.

Oh, put on your shades.

The star shines too bright for all of us.

I love that he said to the Boston Globe journalist, like, yeah, I was just a fucking asshole.

I was just a dickwad in high school.

No deal.

I was sick of you.

I was sick of you.

How old are you now, dude?

Okay, my guy.

That's stupid.

I really do think you peaked there.

But even though Pam also may have seemed to peak in high school, and she was popular

in Wyndham, she always missed Florida, because remember, she's a Miami girl.

She lived there until she was like 13, and she decided after graduating from Pinkerton

High School that she wanted to head to Florida State University in Gainesville.

She enrolled there in 1985, and then she would start there.

But then later, she transferred to the Tallahassee campus, and she was studying media performance.

So she tried to keep in touch with her friends from high school, but she was starting to

find that she just didn't have that much in common with them anymore, which happens.

So as those friendships drifted, she actually had no problem making new friends in Florida,

and actually even back in New Hampshire, when she would come back for breaks, she made new

friends over her first break from school.

And it was through one of her New Hampshire friends, Terry Schnell, that Pam would meet

Greg Smart.

They had met in passing before, but it was at a New Year's Eve party in 1985 that they

would really hit it off.

Greg was also from New Hampshire.

He was born September 4th, 1965, in Londonbury, New Hampshire.

I don't know why I said it like that.

I just wanted to.

Like, not actually London, but...

But like, New Hampshire.

Oh, and I said Londonbury.

It's London Dairy.

You know.

You know.

We're all here.

We're all here.

His parents were Bill and Judy Smart.

Now Greg was like a super active kid from a really early age.

He had two brothers, Dean and Rick, and the Smart family loved to take vacations together.

They were always in attendance at each boys, literally games, and they were genuinely just

a very close family unit.

Adorable family.

Yeah, they really were.

If you see pictures of all of them, I'm like, oh my God, I love you guys.

I love you guys.

I love you guys.

Now Judy Smart described her son as a late bloomer, and she said while other kids around

him competed for spots on teams and clubs, Greg was pretty shy and seemed tappy just

blending into a crowd.

He was somewhat reclusive too, and even into his high school years, just kind of blending

into the crowd was his thing.

Yeah, I just want to be there.

Yeah, and he did just well enough in school to get by.

But after high school, he decided to skip college and go right to work, and he started

working for a company called Consolidated Utility Equipment Services.

That sounds awesome.

He assembled the heavy equipment truck booms, which reminded me of your youngest, because

they love truck booms, and construction equipment.

But around that time, he met Terry Schnell, who would later introduce him to Pam.

They actually got to be super-duper close friends, and people were speculating a ton

at that point on their closeness.

They were like, are you sure you guys are just friends?

Terry and him or Pam and him?

Terry and him.

Oh, okay.

But they really were just platonic friends.

That's really close.

They were like, yeah, we're just friends.

We're just friends.

We're just friends.

Terry said, Greg was basically a stud.

He didn't want a girlfriend.

He just wanted to have some fun.

He's just here for a good time.

He was just here for a good time.

And like Pam, Greg was a big fan of heavy metal, which I don't really know if this is

heavy metal.

Motley Crue and Van Halen.

Van Halen.

That was just a spirit.

I know how to say Van Halen.

Yeah.

I mean, at the time, for sure, Motley Crue was like, Motley Crue.

It was like heavy metal.

Yeah.

Okay.

Yeah.

All right, cool.

Some heavy metal.

There you go.

But so they both loved that.

But more importantly, and as far as Pam was concerned, Greg, sorry, I don't mean to interrupt

you.

I think it's like hair metal.

How dare you?

I think that would be like hair metal back then.

Oh my God.

Okay.

Yeah.

I said that later in the thing because that's what Dave said.

I think that's like, it's hair metal.

It's hair metal, for sure.

Yeah.

Sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt you.

And they looked it around while they metal.

And like, I think Motley Crue and all them were like, like very pretty.

Yeah.

Like, you know, and I think that's what qualifies them as like hair metal instead of like heavy

metal.

I see.

I see.

So yeah, I'm actually glad you interrupted to talk about hair because as far as Pam was

concerned, Greg fit the image she had in her head of the perfect guy.

He loved to party.

He didn't seem all too concerned with building a respectable career and his long rocker hair.

That's what I'm looking for.

His long rocker hair, quote, reminded her of the rock star, John Bon Jovi.

Oh my God, the topical references here are really great.

Aren't they wild?

So of the time.

Also, if you look up a picture of Greg when he was younger, he had beautiful hair.

Oh, I'm sure.

He reminds me more of the adorable little kid in Stranger Things with super curly hair.

Oh my God, Dustin.

Yeah.

Because he has curly hair.

Now, even though Greg was completely uninterested in monogamy at first, he and Pam did hit it

off and they ended up going out with each other a few times over Pam's winter break

that year.

They go sledding, they go to the movies, they were just getting to know each other.

Now Greg enjoyed Pam's company and the fact that she was always down to party, but he

still wasn't interested in having a girlfriend and especially not one that lived thousands

of miles away in Florida.

So because of that, he was pretty relieved when Pam went back to school after break.

But Pam, on the other hand, returned to school desperately in love with Greg.

Oh damn.

Like fell in love with him that winter break.

Greg is adorable.

He is.

I just looked it up.

I mean, Greg is a cutie patootie.

He is super cute.

I'm going to warn you now that there are issues in their relationship that stem from both

sides.

Okay, that's good to know.

So don't like root.

I'm just get, I'm not going to root for anybody here because I know it's all bad, but like

I get why they were both like into each other.

Totally.

Totally get that.

Totally agree.

Yeah.

Hair.

Hair.

So their relationship actually started slowly, like we know, and somewhat uncomplicated.

They would talk on the phone after Pam went back to school and they'd write letters to

each other.

And by Valentine's Day, Pam upped the ante by using her cheap father's connections.

I'm like, you're going to call him cheap and then you're going to use his connections.

You used his connections at Delta to travel to New Hampshire at no cost.

Oh, he's so cheap.

I'm like, it's kind of sounds like you're a little cheap.

Yeah.

Seriously.

Now she would do that plenty more times through the long distance phase.

And by spring break of 1986, though, Greg still wasn't ready to commit to Pam quite

yet.

Damn.

Actually, he was still going on dates with another girl.

Pam would later tell reporters, quote, he basically said that he didn't want to break

up with her and that he didn't want to break up with me.

He wanted to go out with both of us.

So I said, well, it's either her or me.

And he said, OK, I'll see you later.

Wow.

Damn.

Pam was pissed because she went into the situation fully thinking like, oh, I always get what

I want. So this ultimatum, he's going to be like, oh my gosh, how could I lose Pam?

Yeah. But he was like, OK, like, you're not going to ultimatum me.

He was like, OK, bye.

He gave me a choice.

She was not expecting Greg to give up so easily.

Damn.

So she caved as soon as he rejected her ultimatum and they kept on dating while he was dating

this other girl.

Just it sounded like they were like in the talking phase.

I guess this is very messy.

It's super messy.

It's also very 80s.

Yeah. With the hair, with the hair.

So over time, though, Greg did decide that he wanted to be with Pam and Pam only.

He was ready for monogamy at some point.

Yeah. And in the fall of 1986, they had become completely exclusive.

OK. Love it.

They were still doing long distance, but Pam was able to pull her Delta

airline strings when she needed to and Greg would make the trips when he had the money

and could get time off from work.

OK. By 1987, though, it was getting harder and harder to maintain the distance.

So Greg decided he was going to move out to Tallahassee and be with Pam.

Damn.

Crazy.

Pam was able to be her complete self in Tallahassee since she wasn't living under

her parents' roof anymore.

She could love her metal as much as she wanted to.

And this is where I said, or hair bands, if we're being honest.

We are being honest.

And she could also pursue the career that she wanted to in the entertainment industry.

She landed a position through her program at school to be a news intern for WCTV,

which at the time and possibly now is an affiliate of CBS.

And possibly now.

I'm like, I don't really know. Who's to say?

Who's to say? Not me.

Whoa, I just dropped pens.

I'm sorry, everybody over there.

Now, she also started working as a promotions director for the College radio station,

which was actually a position she made for herself.

They didn't have any open positions.

And she was like, that's fine, I'll make one.

Yeah. I mean, if you want it, you might as well make up a position that fits.

I kind of love that.

I will say I do love that.

Now, eventually that role led to her getting a new position as a DJ on the heavy metal show.

Metal madness.

This is really 80s.

I love it.

Oh, it's so much more 80s because Pam referred to herself as she was DJing as the maiden of metal.

Oh, hell yeah.

And she spent one night a week playing all her favorite records from bands like Van Halen.

Van Halen, you keep saying Van Halen.

Van Halen, it's Halen.

I don't it's a spirit because I know that I know how to say it.

I think it's just a weird accent that I have.

She also is going to be another nin moment.

Oh, but I know this one.

Van Halen, Van Halen, Van Halen.

She also loved Aerosmith and Queen's Reich, Queen's Reach.

Reich, I think it is.

Queen's Reich.

She liked that queen band, but not a rake queen.

I think it's rake.

Queen's rake.

Queen's rake.

I don't know if somebody will tell us.

Now, with Greg moving to Florida, it seemed like Pam's life and the vision she'd crafted

for her future were finally coming into focus.

Once he arrived in Florida, Greg moved into his own apartment or yeah,

he didn't move in with Pam straight away.

And his mother said it appeared to be, quote, from a refurbished motel complex.

Adorable.

Yeah.

His parents bought him the essentials.

They got his furniture in some decor and Pam kept living in her dorm.

According to his mother, Judy, Greg never really liked Florida, though.

He just stayed because of Pam, which is really sweet.

Lerv.

But he missed New England a lot and he was just trying to get acclimated by going

out with Pam and her friends.

And eventually he made his own friends.

Now, his family back home was absolutely shocked that he had made a move to Florida

because they knew him mostly as this like non-monogamous recluse back in New Hampshire.

I love it.

We were like, wait, what?

What's happening right now?

You moved to Florida to be in a monogamous relationship.

That's crazy.

And they were even more shocked when he and Pam ended up getting an apartment

together just after a few months of him being there.

Shacking up.

Shacking up, not completely by themselves, because they worked with one or they lived

with one of Pam's co-workers.

The situation was ideal for Pam, but she couldn't tell her parents about

Greg living with her.

They had expectations that she was out there to study, work hard and get a good

job, not be distracted by a boy.

No.

Because and they liked Greg, but they definitely wouldn't approve of Pam living

with him.

OK.

A friend of Pam's from college would later tell author Stephen Sawicki, quote,

every time her parents came down, Greg would move all his stuff out and go live

with another kid until they left.

Are you kidding me?

Like what a hassle.

That's intense.

You guys should just tell them.

You should definitely just tell them a lot.

It's a lot to have to move out of your place of living.

Every time her parents come, I'd be pissed.

Move into a new dwelling every time they visit.

Hey, can I live with you for a minute?

For a minute.

For a minute.

Now, in January of 1988, Pam got home from work one day in a super shitty mood.

She had just had a shit day.

She later recalled, I don't know what happened, but I was totally aggravated.

I had had the worst day and I was crying and complaining about something.

So Greg was consoling her and he was like, you know what, like, I think you

should take a shower. That always makes you feel better.

I agree. If you're pissed off, go take a shower.

And at first she didn't want to, but he was like, just take a fucking shower, Pam.

Like, you'll feel better.

And she was like, OK, fine.

And when she got out, she reached for her powder puff.

And when she lifted it, she saw that Greg had left her a diamond ring

that she had told him she liked while they had gone ring shopping just casually

a few weeks before. That's cute.

She said she opened it up and yelled, oh, my God.

I went on to say I started crying and he wasn't even saying, will you marry me?

So I started saying, get down on your knee.

And finally I said, yes, I'll marry you, even though he never really asked me.

Oh, no.

So I don't know if that was a proposal or if he was just like leaving a present.

Here's this diamond ring present.

But also you can't do that.

Don't get a girl in diamond ring that you're living with.

If it's not an engagement ring ring. Yeah.

So now they were engaged.

OK. Whether he knew that they were going to be or not.

They were. And since he'd gotten to Florida,

Greg was having a hard time finding work and he was getting by landscaping

and taking on other small jobs here and there.

But the engagement really started to seem to get him thinking more seriously

about the future. Yeah.

And according to my guy, Stephen Sawicki, my guy, Greg started to understand

that the nice home and boat and other possessions his parents had acquired

would not come easily at three thirty five an hour.

Yeah. So he started thinking realistically about joining his dad

and his dad worked in the insurance business. OK.

So while Pam worked hard to finish out her last year at Florida State,

Greg started studying for and actually eventually passed the exam

to sell insurance in Florida.

Now, the insurance industry was definitely not what Greg had envisioned

for himself, but he had seen his dad make up comfortable and stable life

for his family and he wanted the same opportunity.

Now, Pam knew that the changes that Greg was making

were for a better future for the two of them,

but there were some changes that came as a total surprise to her

and that maybe she wasn't super happy about.

One day, for instance, after Greg passed the real estate exam

and he got an interview with MetLife, which is actually the company

that his dad worked for, he surprised Pam while she was out for coffee

with her friends.

He had gotten a haircut to look more professional,

because like he couldn't be selling real estate or he can be selling

insurance with like crazy hair like a metal head. Right.

So he showed up and sat down next to her

and she didn't even know it was him at first, but it didn't really seem

like this change was welcome for her loving Pam.

Yeah. Now, bigger changes came a few months later

when he surprised Pam again.

But I think this is a good surprise because he surprised her with a shitsuit

puppy as a graduation present. I love that.

They'd been going back and forth deciding on whether or not to get a dog

over the last couple of months, but they ultimately decided against it

because they thought it would take a strain on their budget.

But Greg saved up the money from his landscaping job so that he could buy

the dog and he figured that his new job at MetLife and whatever work

Pam was going to be able to find.

Now that she had graduated, they would be able to afford the dog

and she'd be happy about it. So sweet.

Now, she actually wanted a Yorkshire terrier at first.

Like, that's what she really wanted.

So I think maybe she made that comment.

So she wasn't super excited about the idea of a shitsuit.

But then she saw the little baby dog and she was happy.

I was going to say, it's a baby dog.

Is that's just a baby dog?

That's just my baby dog. I would take any baby dog.

So she was happy when she saw the puppy.

I'm like, girl, she would later say that her heart melted

and she immediately declared that it was the best present she had ever gotten.

Of course it is. It's a baby dog.

It's a baby dog.

And they named the baby dog, Helen, Helen, Helen, Van Halen.

Oh, my God. I can't say it.

I know how to say it.

I don't think she knows how to say it.

You get out of here.

I mean, it's Van Halen.

Yeah. But I can't say if you've seen Helen.

I know, well, because it looks like Helen when you read it.

So they named the dog, Helen.

Yeah. OK. He was named after their favorite band.

Cute. And now they had a wedding on the horizon.

So they had a puppy.

They had they were going to have a wedding.

Greg's got this new job.

Things seem to be falling into place. Of course.

But there were also some red flags on both sides.

You don't say. Here I am to tell you.

Back in New Hampshire, Greg had been known,

like we said, as a carefree loner.

And after high school, though, he developed a strong personality.

And now, just like Pam, he liked to be the one in control of things.

But so did Pam. Oh, so two strong personalities in the house

was starting to lead to more arguments.

I wonder what their signs are.

He's a Virgo. Oh, she was born in.

August 16th.

I think that would make her a fucking.

Why can't I think of this?

Is it Leo?

Leo, you're right. Right.

OK, so a Leo and a Virgo.

Yeah, you know, does that does that check

like those feel like two strong personalities?

Right. I know Virgos are alive with one.

Yeah, I created one.

Those are two very strong personalities

and people that want to be in control of things.

I don't think that makes sense.

You know what I'm saying?

Well, no, I got to find my place.

I had to bring it back to your to your area of expertise.

I'm happy you did.

Although I guess it's not my expertise area anymore.

No, you got it. I got it.

You got it. I got it.

I believed in you and you got it.

Oh, my goodness. Thank you so much.

So, yeah, Avery, you can pick it up right here. Yeah.

So, yes, two strong personalities, a Virgo and a Leo.

Maybe it works for you,

but I don't think it was bound to work for Greg and Pam.

And I'm going to tell you about a shitty story that happened.

One night while they were still in Florida,

Greg and Pam decided to go out to a bar with some friends.

Now, Greg and his friends sounded like they were being a couple of jerks.

They were making gross comments about the waitress right in front of Pam.

Oh, fuck him up.

Yeah, fuck him up. Fuck him up.

So, eventually, Pam had had enough

of the stream of inappropriate comments

and she started arguing with Greg about it.

She's like, what the fuck is your problem?

Yeah.

Now, the argument escalated to the point

where Greg spit a mouthful of beer on Pam.

Oh, that's not OK.

And he had to be forcibly removed from the bar.

Oh, that would be the end for me.

It would also be the end for me.

Throughout all that, throughout that fight and all the ones to follow,

Pam and Greg, for some reason or another, stayed committed to each other.

OK. Like they said, this is what we want.

You do you.

Now, and since Pam had graduated at this point,

there wasn't any reason to stay in Florida anymore.

So they decided that they were going to move back to New Hampshire.

Greg figured he could work with his well respected and well connected dad.

And Pam now had a degree, so she could find a job out there.

Yeah. Now, Pam definitely wasn't

against moving back home to New Hampshire after graduation

because the cost of living was cheaper and the rural nature of the state

made it very safe, I would say, especially in comparison to Florida.

But at the same time, she also always kind of considered herself

a Florida girl. Yeah, she liked the warmer climate.

She liked the things you can do out there.

And she liked New Hampshire, but she struggled with the harsh New England winter.

She was that wasn't for her. Yeah.

So it wasn't the easiest transition moving back.

Greg, on the other hand, he had struggled,

like I was saying, from the moment he arrived in Florida.

So he was super happy to be back in New England.

He loved the colder climate.

He loved doing winter sports, and he was happy to be back with his family.

Because, like I said, they were super close family.

Yeah, it was hard to say,

super connected to them while living so far away, and he was happy to be back.

He was feeling like himself again.

He was settling into a new routine. It was great.

He actually got back to New Hampshire a few weeks before Pam did.

She stayed back in Florida to finish the last of her responsibilities at school.

But when she did make her way back to New Hampshire, like I was saying,

the decision was not an easy one to make.

She'd spent four years trying to find career options out in Florida

and trying out different roles in the entertainment industry.

But at the same time, she knew very well

that the actual paying jobs in the industry were few and far between.

And they usually required a person to move around a lot

if they wanted to advance professionally.

Yeah.

And New Hampshire, though, at the same time,

was not the state that you would move to for a high profile career

in television journalism.

No. And that's what she wanted.

And moving back meant that she'd have to sacrifice that

for a life of stability.

Her best friend at the time, Sonia Simon,

remembered that Pam was really torn about this.

She said, I remember her saying, am I making a mistake?

Should I be going and following my dream?

This is like everything she ever wanted.

And all of a sudden, she was faced with choosing Greg

in New Hampshire over being an actual reporter.

OK. You know. Yeah.

But she did end up moving back to New Hampshire.

She made the choice. All right.

Now, there was one place she could apply to help advance her career

in professional journalism over in New Hampshire.

It was the Manchester ABC affiliate WMUR.

She applied and they rejected her.

So that was kind of that's a tough fit.

So since there weren't a lot of other options,

she went to work at a temp agency, and then she landed a job

as the new media center director with the School Administrative Unit 21.

The job was in Hampton, which was about 40 minutes from where she was living.

And at the time, she had to move back with her parents.

So Greg was living at his parents and she was living at her parents.

OK. Now, the job was a straightforward admin position.

She'd have to maintain and distribute the audio and video equipment

to the six schools within her district.

But there was also the potential to move up the ladder and become more involved.

And also video production was still new and exciting at this point.

And so the school board really hoped that the new media center

would engage parents and students and lead to some positive press for the district.

And Pam was the kind of young energetic person they were looking for.

So everybody collectively was pretty excited about this.

For Pam, the job felt like an ideal alternative

to chasing her dreams of journalistic stardom.

Like, yeah, she wasn't going to be a stock, but she could be star adjacent.

There you go. Perfect way of saying it.

And the pay was really good at that point in time.

She was going to be making twenty two thousand five hundred dollars a year.

Now, the salary and benefits were great for somebody just out of college

and the work made it so that she was still connected to media.

So she was still doing what she liked to do.

And she also got her own office in the basement of Winnicunnit High School,

where she was pretty much left to do as she pleased

without any superior working in the office with her. Yeah.

And she even got her own secretary.

Whoa. So she probably felt like big shot.

Shit.

Now, like I was saying earlier, when they moved back for the summer

in fall of eighty eight, Greg and Pam were living separately

with their parents until they could find a place of their own.

But they both had really good jobs,

so it didn't take long for them to find a place to move into.

In January of eighty nine, they moved into a condo together

on Misty Morning Drive in Derry, New Hampshire.

Misty Morning Drive.

Isn't that just pretty?

I love that.

Misty Morning Drive.

And isn't just waking up in your house on Misty Morning Drive.

Oh, I love a Misty Morning.

Doesn't Misty Morning Drive sound like a soap opera?

Now that we're saying it, it does. Yeah, it definitely does.

I like it. Yeah.

And their new place was just a five minute walk from Greg's parents,

who also lived in a condo in the same complex. Adorable.

Now, the wedding was getting closer, so they were in full blown prep mode.

Their plan was to get married in the Catholic Church.

So at the time, they were going through the counseling sessions

that you have to go through if you want to get married in the church.

Yeah. And while they were going through that period,

Pam actually got a call from somebody at WCTV,

which was the Tallahassee affiliate where she interned.

OK. And they wanted to know as she's planning her wedding

and going through all of this, they said,

are you interested in an on air position with our station?

Whoa, like everything she had ever wanted. Damn.

It was the call that the old Pam was waiting for,

but this Pam was determined to commit to her married life.

So she declined. Wow. Yeah.

That's shocking. I know.

Deborah Keeney, who had been Pam and Greg's roommate back in Florida,

said of this time, she always wanted to be a broadcaster

and she loved the spotlight, but she turned it down in order to stay with Greg.

It was because she loved Greg so much.

And that was the truth. Damn.

It's wild to think that had she accepted that job,

I would never be sitting here telling you this story.

That's really wild to think about.

Like, it's so crazy how one decision

can alter an entire course of events.

That's wild.

Had she said yes to that, who knows what would have happened.

I know. But she did not.

The world would be a different place. It would, technically.

Yeah, I think so, you know, for a little bit of it.

Yeah. So the wedding finally came after over a year of planning.

And on May 7th, 1989, and I said this in your thing,

I wrote, which is weird because as I'm writing this, that is tomorrow.

Because remember, something happened in your story that was on May 7th.

And I was like, wait, me too.

Yeah. So that's when they got married.

Oh, that's so weird.

And Pam and Greg had a traditional ceremony at Sacred Heart Church

in Lowell, Massachusetts. Oh, damn.

And the reception was held in nearby Pelham, New Hampshire.

They had more than 250 guests, which stresses me the fuck out.

Because as I'm planning my wedding, I'm like, oh, my God, no.

Wait, how many?

Two more than 250 as a big ass wedding.

Damn.

Like I have 150 and I'm stressed.

I don't know 250 people, nor do I.

That's the thing.

But I think it's one of those things where your parents start to ask you to invite people.

I'm like, lucky. There's a limit, my friends.

Yeah, I'm in a lucky position where nobody's asking us to do that.

And I'm happy about it.

It just cooled me.

Yeah, cool with me.

And their wedding song was, honestly, by the Christian heavy metal band.

It's either Striper, it's probably Striper, because it's definitely not Striper.

Are you sure?

Yeah, they're a Christian heavy metal band.

All right. Are you sure?

Yes.

So I listened and I'm not going to lie.

It does pop off in the chorus.

It pops off.

It pops off in the chorus. Oh, shit.

I recommend it for sure. Damn.

Like listening to it.

Now, once the wedding was over, they decided to have their stay in Bermuda,

their honeymoon stay in Bermuda.

Which I also 10 out of 10 recommend.

No stories from Bermuda that I could find.

But pretty much as soon as they got back from their honeymoon,

the cracks were starting to show in Pam and Greg's marriage,

which had lasted at that point all about a month, I was going to say.

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Judy Smart, remember, that's Greg's mother.

Recalled one afternoon this is going to piss you off because like I said,

they both have faults.

Judy was just like sitting at Pam and Greg's place one day after the wedding

and Pam showed her a list that she had written down with the names of people who

had given them money for the wedding next to the amount that they'd given,

which is normal.

Like you got to do thank you cards.

Yeah.

But Pam went through the list with Judy and pointed out every single member of

Greg's family who had given them a quote unquote small amount of money as a gift.

My God.

Can you imagine sitting with your mother-in-law and being like,

John's uncle gave this much and this guy gave this much.

I mean, my God.

Wow.

My mother-in-law would smack me and should smack me.

My mother-in-law would just laugh.

Yeah.

My mother-in-law absolutely would not smack me, but I would tell her to.

My mother-in-law would punch me in the face.

Like if I was somebody's mother-in-law, I'd be like, you talking shit on my family.

I just feel like, oh, who do you think you are?

Like, I can't imagine having that audacity.

Who do you think you are?

Who are you?

But it wasn't actually really the first time that Judy had seen Pam act this entitled.

Apparently right before their wedding, Pam's parents called Greg's parents

and said that they were concerned that Greg wouldn't be able to quote,

give their daughter the things in life that she deserved.

Wow.

Basically, they were like, he didn't go to college.

He likes to party and he only just got a good job.

So like, what do you think about this?

Like, is he good enough for our kid?

Wow.

And Judy said of the whole thing, we had to sell Greg to the Wilhosses.

Like, he was a piece of merchandise.

My God.

I'd be pissed.

What is happening?

Like, I don't think you guys were meant to get married.

I was just going to say, this is a very strange way to begin your lives together.

I can imagine Ma and Papa calling Drew's parents and being like,

I don't know, like, do you think he's good enough for all that?

Like, you know what?

You should always be closing and I'm not sold on this guy yet.

Like, what?

So let's go.

What?

Give me a PowerPoint presentation on why I should invest in this guy.

You have to literally like think that thought.

Walk to the phone, dial the number, wait to connect to like, there are so many

stops along the way where you could have stopped yourself.

Yeah.

What you doing?

What you doing?

What you doing over there, guys?

I don't like it.

Now, at this point, to a lot of their friends, Pam and Greg did not seem

like they fit together anymore.

No.

No.

They were fighting constantly and it was starting to seem to everyone else like

they enjoyed pushing each other's buttons.

They also both really seemed to like to get attention from other men and women,

which didn't go too well when it came to Pam's jealous nature,

especially when it came to things that she considered hers and only hers.

And finally, their goals and ambitions weren't the same.

Greg, since he had cut his hair, he'd started on a more

narrow path in the industry and he seemed, at this point, to be embracing kind of like

a simple, easygoing lifestyle.

He was happy to stay in the town that he grew up in.

He'd go to a party or two.

He was just living.

Yeah.

Like a very normal, chill lifestyle.

Just living.

But Pam wanted more.

She wanted that big career.

She wanted to acquire.

She wanted to climb her way up the social ladder.

They had very different paths in life.

But then, at the same time, while it had its rough points,

their marriage wasn't quite as strained as you might think looking from the outside.

Greg and Pam, they still enjoyed spending time together, I guess.

They were at the very least a good example of opposites attract, some people said.

OK.

It seems like everybody had very varying opinions on the two of them.

Thank you.

Because my next thing was going to be like, oh, all right.

I'm hearing a lot of different outlooks on what they are or what they aren't.

Yeah.

It's even like Pam growing up, though.

Like in the beginning, I was like, some people thought she was fucking awesome.

Other people were like, she was dipping in the school funds.

And she's conniving.

She's conniving.

Like nobody is in the middle of any of these.

I feel like that was kind of, it seems like that some people just like that.

Like they like being in the middle where like nobody can pinpoint them.

Yeah.

You know what I mean?

Like they know who they are, but nobody else does.

Yeah.

And it's they only think like one extreme or the other.

Yeah.

And they're like a chameleon who can just slide on either side.

Yeah.

Makes sense kind of thing.

Well, and I kind of think that like their closest friends were like, yeah,

I don't think you guys are working anymore.

That's what it sounds like.

And then maybe the friends that they weren't super close with.

Yeah.

The people looking from the outside were like, no, I think they were a great couple.

I know.

It's good.

You know, like whatever.

Yeah.

They said Pam was the one who tended to dominate and control.

And Greg took what his friends considered a let's go, no problem, whatever approach to life.

All right.

If Greg wasn't irritated with Pam all the time though,

his friends and family absolutely were to they seem to find Pam overbearing,

controlling, and they could tell that she felt threatened by Greg's close relationships,

which that's not good.

Yeah.

That's always a red flag.

Greg had a lot of close friends and making friends was easy for him.

But now in this part of her life, Pam was struggling to make new friends,

which was new for her because she used to have an easy time, but now she's not.

And when she did make friends, they were, according to my guys, Steven Sawicki,

often younger than she was, less educated and tended to admire Pam and her forceful personality.

Okay.

So I feel like a lot of people know somebody like this that likes to be friends with younger people

in the sense of so that they look up to them and admire them.

100 percent.

Because they're actually insecure and can't be friends with people their own age because people

their own age will call them on their shit.

Yeah.

Like people their own age will be like you're really immature.

Exactly.

And like you're not, you're not being rational.

You're not being like an actual adult about anything.

But people younger than them are like, wow, you're so cool and carefree.

And you've got like, you know.

Exactly.

Exactly.

Exactly.

Now, so depending on who you ask, Greg and Pam's marriage might have seemed like somewhat

stable in the first few months that they were married.

But that's also most likely because they hadn't gone through that much as a couple.

Yeah.

I mean, they just got married.

They weren't struggling with money.

They still had that excitement of being newlyweds.

They had that whole thing.

Yeah.

And they also had a house full of things that people had bought for their wedding

and a bank account filled with money that they'd also been gifted.

So they were like living.

They were good.

And Greg had done really well during his first year of selling insurance.

He actually did so well that he won Rookie of the Year award.

Oh, damn.

But because of the rough points that I've already told you about,

it wasn't long before the magic started to wear off and old habits were starting to return.

Greg, or no, excuse me, Pam would push Greg's buttons to get his attention.

He would spit beer in her face and send her out of the room pissed off.

It was like a vicious cycle.

Yeah.

And one night things got even worse.

It was about seven months after the wedding and Greg went out to Boston for a night with his friends.

Oh, damn.

He wasn't supposed to be gone super late.

It was just supposed to be like a night hanging out with your friends.

But he didn't come home until the next morning.

Uh-oh.

He and Pam obviously got into a huge fight when he finally did get home.

And they spent that entire full day fighting.

And the next day, Greg woke up to a note from Pam that said,

you can't find me.

I'm not at my mother's.

I'll be somewhere else.

Don't even try to find me.

Yeah.

Yikes.

Now somehow they got over that.

OK.

Time after a few days, but things only continued to slowly get worse.

Judy noticed to his mom that they weren't spending a lot of time together,

and Greg seemed to be spending more and more time by himself with his friends

anywhere he could away from Pam.

Damn.

On the weekends, he'd go out with his friends.

And if he wasn't with his friends, he'd just go for drives around town in his truck.

All right.

He just didn't want to be with his new wife.

Marriage, you know.

And adding more fuel to the fire was that Greg wanted to start having kids

and Pam didn't want kids.

Yeah.

I don't know if this is the place you want to bring kids into, my guys.

Numero uno, no.

You guys don't want to bring kids into this because it's not going to fix it.

No.

And then also, like, that's a conversation you have to have before getting married.

Yeah.

Like, you can't wait until later and be like, oh wait, you don't want kids?

Like, that sucks.

Yeah.

If you want kids, you need to be with somebody that wants kids.

If you're planning to lock yourself to someone for life,

you got to know what's going on here.

Where are your ideals?

What are your principles?

What are your beliefs?

How do you want?

Do you want kids?

How do you want to raise kids?

Because certain things are deal breakers.

Like, for me, I would never be with somebody that didn't want kids.

And a lot of people, that's a deal breaker.

Either way.

And vice versa.

Like, if you don't want kids, you don't want kids.

Yeah.

And you're not going to be with someone who is dead set on having kids.

Which is why you got to talk about that beforehand.

So Greg wanted them, Pam did not.

Greg also wanted to put a down payment on a house.

Pam didn't want to move.

Pam and Greg were drifting apart,

and they hadn't even been married for a year yet.

So while Pam's personal life was taking hit after hit after hit after hit,

her professional life was actually going really well.

She was doing great at work,

and she decided in the fall of 1989

that she wanted to get more involved with something called project self-esteem.

It was the high school's drug and alcohol awareness program,

like essentially, DARE, the witch we have over here.

And it was going to be mandatory for all incoming freshmen.

It was mostly run by students,

but it needed to be overseen by an adult staff member.

And Pam volunteered to be that staff member.

Okay.

The school agreed.

And it was via project self-esteem

that Pam would meet a boy named Billy Flynn and his group of friends.

Uh-oh, I know that name.

You sure do.

Now, I probably say it later,

but it's important to stress she's not a teacher.

She worked at the school as an administrator.

It's always the teacher.

Everybody always says she's a teacher.

She wasn't.

It doesn't make it any better or any worse.

It does not make it better, but...

But it's annoying that it's always written that way,

because it's not like that's not the truth.

Because there are plenty of teachers who have done this kind of thing.

Oh, we could cover like a million and five cases like this, unfortunately.

This is slightly different.

Slightly different.

Just as bad, but slightly different.

Exactly.

So let's talk about Billy Flynn.

Let's talk about him.

Let's do it.

Billy Flynn's family had moved to Seabrook, New Hampshire from California.

California.

California, man.

And they moved in 1987 when Billy was 12 years old.

So interestingly enough, he and Pam's story kind of starts the same,

which is weird when you think about it.

Now, the move was tough for Billy because it was a huge culture shock.

Seabrook wasn't necessarily the nicest area at the time.

When Pam started her job, actually, Seabrook had the highest unemployment rate

in the state of New Hampshire, and it was mostly filled with like just shops,

like tattoo shops, fireworks stores.

There was a lot of porn stores, I guess, along Route 1.

And the surrounding towns were filled with people from mass and beyond mass,

and those towns had kind of been transformed throughout the years,

while Seabrook was sort of just frozen in time.

Yeah.

Now, usually the people living there had a strong New Hampshire accent,

which I don't know what a New Hampshire accent is.

I know it when I hear it.

But you couldn't do it.

But I don't think I could recreate it.

I don't know if I know it, to be honest with you.

It's slight.

It's slight?

Yeah.

But you don't know the characteristics at all?

No, I was going to say I could try to look up an example of it,

but it's one of those things that just when I hear someone,

I'm like, you're from New Hampshire.

Oh, OK.

I've never noticed it.

I think I like don't notice those things sometimes.

You just have so many souls.

I probably have a New Hampshire soul that's like, that's not an accent,

it's my voice.

That's just me.

It's just who I am.

Yeah.

But apparently the people living in Seabrook to other people

seem to have a strong New Hampshire accent,

and they also use specific slang words that other people weren't using.

Friend of the pod and research assistant of the pod, Dave,

is pretty familiar with that area,

and he actually led us in on some of the slang.

Oh, Dave.

Are you ready?

A quick lesson if you're down.

From Dave.

Stove you up means you're going to fight someone.

Oh, damn.

I'm going to stove you up.

What?

Ikebub means all right or yes.

Ikebub.

Ikebub.

But according to Dave, it's more of an exclamation.

Ikebub.

Ikebub.

Like, let's go.

Ikebub.

Hell yeah, let's do it.

And then there is what Dave calls the classic a-ya.

A-ya.

A-ya, which just means yes.

So it's like, a-ya.

A-ya.

A-ya.

I'd love to do that.

Are you going there?

A-ya.

A-ya.

I guess is what it is.

So that means yes.

All right.

Thank you for joining us.

Class dismissed.

Back to the case.

Thank you, Dave.

Thank you, Dave.

Now, unfortunately, residents of Seabrook and just the Seabrook town in general

were the butt of a lot of jokes, which makes me sad,

because I also came from a town that was the butt of a lot of jokes.

Yeah.

You know?

That's true.

The jokes were especially abundant in high school,

and the Seabrook kids were usually called brookers.

Brookers.

Brookers.

Now, Billy Flynn was known at the time as a quintessential brooker.

He loved heavy metal.

I liked that.

And he fell in with a crowd from Seabrook that didn't really do much else,

but listen, heavy metal and vibe.

Yeah.

How's their shit?

Yeah, man.

That's what they did.

Yeah, just one year after moving to New Hampshire from California,

this is fucking terrible and tragic.

Oh.

His father was killed in a car accident.

Oh.

So he was 13 years old.

Oh, jeez.

So now he had to lean even harder on these brand new friends,

and his mother had to get a second job working as a maid

so that she could support their family.

She was now the sole provider of a family of four.

While grieving.

While grieving.

Cool.

So Billy could usually be found most afternoons just killing time with his friends,

Pete Randall, and Vance J.R. Latime, I believe is how you say it.

They would work on junk cars in J.R.'s friend yard.

OK.

Now, J.R.'s house was kind of a home base for Billy and his friends.

It was overcrowded, especially when another friend, Ralph Welch,

went to stay with J.R.'s family after he was kicked out of his own house.

Oh.

So it was overcrowded for them, but it was also like home.

I was going to say, yeah, it's like a cozy overcrowded.

Exactly.

Now outside of the house, that group of teens didn't really have the best reputation in town.

They were known to shoplift.

They were known to break into cars and steal things like sticky fingers, sticky fingers,

McGee's.

They would steal like small shit around the car or they would steal radios, which is a dick move.

Yeah, that is a dick move.

Let me tell you.

Yeah, didn't your radio get stolen?

Yeah, it did.

Yeah.

And Toby the probie.

Yeah.

And Debbie's radio.

I don't know if a radio got stolen, but I know her entire book of CDs got stolen.

And there was a lot of like burned CDs, like mixed CDs to this day.

We are sad about it.

If you're listening and you did that, go fuck yourself.

Fuck you.

And I hope Limewire gave your computer a virus.

I hope you got a virus.

I hope the feds came to your house because of Limewire.

We were so mad.

Like, how dare you?

Yeah, that's fucked up.

One of those thick books.

Who steals a book of CDs?

Dicks.

Like that's not, you didn't even make that.

No, fuck you.

That wasn't your hard work.

That wasn't yours.

No.

But yeah, they like to do that.

Yeah, that's shitty.

They like to steal things from the car, like CD books and radios.

That's shitty.

And sometimes, if they were lucky enough to find a car that still had the keys in it,

they would take that car for a joyride and then dump it across town from where they found it.

So you would wake up in the morning and you'd say,

holy shit, my car is gone.

But at school, they were a little more well-behaved and their grades were like, all right.

But none of them were interested in extracurriculars until

Billy J.R. and their friend Cecilia Pierce were asked to be among the students

that would facilitate project self-esteem.

And for one reason or another, they all agreed.

It's very strange because I can't picture this group of friends being like,

yeah, I'll work with project self-esteem.

Yeah, that's a little strange to me.

But they did.

I think they were probably pressured into it.

Probably.

One day that fall, would you say?

They were probably threatened.

Absolutely.

Now, one day that fall, they all got together for their first meeting

and it was there that the guidance counselor introduced them to their staff supervisor,

media center director, Ms. Pamela Smart.

Pamela.

So to the teens in the room, Pam seemed pretty cool.

She was young.

She was pretty.

She treated them like they were normal.

She never made them feel like a waste of time,

like some of the other adults in their life did.

But Billy, Billy liked her for a totally different reason.

He thought she was smoking hot.

He was immediately feeling the, the, the badom, badom, badom for her.

And he turned to his friend J.R. and whispered, I'm in love.

Wow.

Damn.

Like you've done her for one minute.

That's a lot.

She could have terrible views on life.

That's true.

So Pam, even though she was an adult and obviously in a position of power and authority,

she was 22 years old.

She was a lot closer in age to the students than pretty much any other staff at the school.

And she also wasn't one of their teachers.

Like you usually hear she was.

She was an administrator for the school district.

So to them, she felt more like a cool older friend versus what she really was an authority figure.

But Billy right away did whatever he could do to be in Pam's company.

To him, her love of heavy metal and her experience as a college radio DJ made her even cooler

and less like any adult he knew.

And before long, he was opening up to her about everything in his life.

His dad's death, how he didn't feel like he fit in and see Brooke at first,

but then he found this great group of friends, you know, telling her things that he wasn't talking

to anybody else about.

He also was not serious at all about project self-esteem,

but what he was serious about was Pam.

As the weeks went on and he was spending more and more time with her in the administrative building,

which remember was in the high school, they were getting closer and closer.

And also I'm pretty sure that her office was in the basement,

so it was away from a lot of important eyes.

But anytime he had a free period, anytime he had lunch or class he didn't feel like going to,

he went to Pam's office and it was easy.

Because it was right there.

Yeah.

Now, Billy, though, he wasn't the only one wanting to spend more time with Pam.

Cecilia Pierce, Billy's friend and fellow project self-esteem volunteer,

was also fascinated by her.

Now, Cecilia was somewhat of like a wallflower and she had big dreams of becoming a journalist.

So Pam was the embodiment of what Cecilia wanted for herself.

She seemed like she was attractive, successful,

and she had this commanding presence that Cecilia wanted to have, aspired to have.

Her parents both worked full time, so they weren't home a lot.

Essentially what I'm getting at here is that like Cecilia didn't feel like she was noticed by a lot

of people and Pam always seemed to be the one to make time for her.

And then they also had a lot in common because she wanted to be a journalist and la-di-da-do,

you know?

Yeah, it makes sense.

So Pam eventually found out that Cecilia had an interest in media and journalism and she was like,

oh, would you like to intern like at the media center with me?

Yeah.

And Cecilia jumped at the chance.

Totally normal.

Yeah.

Write that.

Cecilia's internship, goodbye.

You got this.

And her internship began in November and for two periods a day,

she joined Pam in the basement office where she helped with typesetting the school board's newsletter,

she cataloged the AV equipment, and basically did whatever else needed to be done.

Now, of course, during her time as an intern, Cecilia and Pam got closer.

Yeah, because remember, Pam is this young,

uh, administrator and Cecilia's looking up to her.

She thinks she's so cool.

Yeah.

Cecilia said they only ever got into one argument and that Pam's response to the fight was asking

Cecilia to please not be mad at her.

She remembered thinking, here's this girl.

She's 22.

She's my friend and she's actually apologizing to me.

For Cecilia, who was really used to being ignored and overlooked,

the attention that she was getting from Pam was intoxicating.

Oh boy.

Intoxicating.

I was going to say what a word.

I know, right?

Now, to anybody looking, and unfortunately, nobody actually seemed to me,

it was, it would have been clear that Pam, uh, probably wasn't the best person for this position.

No.

The kids really didn't necessarily respect her as an authority figure.

They just saw her as a peer, and she was not really good at setting professional boundaries.

What could have been a positive mentoring experience pretty quickly spiraled into something

wildly inappropriate.

Pam really, really loved being the center of attention,

and like I was saying earlier, she liked to be friends with people

that she had power and influence over.

There it is.

So this new quote unquote friendship that she had with Billy and Cecilia,

a.k.a. their infatuation with her,

started to make up for the distance that she was feeling was growing between her and Greg.

Yeah.

It's like this is exactly what she wants.

Her little high school friends.

Yeah.

Who are like sophomores in high school.

I don't like it at all.

Are making up for the issues she's having with her husband.

And while Greg was kind of like growing up and losing interest in the music that they used to love

and avoiding partying, Pam's new teenage friends were still interested in those things,

and thought she was super cool for loving them just as much as they did.

Yeah, man.

So she's leaning even more and more into these kids.

Now, in December, Cecilia saw a flyer on Pam's desk for the Florida Department of Citrus'

annual high school video competition.

The 80s.

Okay.

The video competition.

It was the 80s.

It's almost the 90s.

But she mentioned to Pam that it sounded fun.

So Pam agreed and with Cecilia's help, they recruited Billy Flynn

and Cecilia's best friend Karen Crowley to work on a submission.

They were like, let's go win this Florida thing.

Let's go.

Now, none of them actually really thought the project was all that interesting.

And their concept, which was a rap song describing orange juice in the life of a caveman,

wasn't really that original or clever.

No.

But it meant that they got to spend more time with each other throughout the week.

And by January of 1990, the group was meeting several times a week at the school.

And eventually they started meeting up on Saturdays too

at Pam and Greg's condo.

Oh no.

Where they would take long breaks to go sledding or eat dinner together.

I don't like this.

Inappropriate.

Yep.

So much thinking.

You're welcome.

Yeah.

Now, the video that they made did not win.

It did not even get any kind of positive response from the Department of Citrus.

Nobody really gave a shout about it.

No.

But the time that they spent making it led Pam and all the kids to get closer.

And she was becoming especially close with Billy.

Hmm.

Billy's mom, like I said, was working multiple jobs to support the family.

And Billy was usually in charge of his brothers, Jimmy and Larry, while she was gone.

I guess in public, he was considered very quiet and polite.

He didn't talk much about his feelings or really anything at all.

He was quiet.

His mother Elaine said of him, outside of the family, people saw a kid that was polite and charming.

Inside the family is where he took out his anger.

At home, he could be whatever he was feeling like.

And most of the time, he was feeling like a prick.

Oh, wow.

That's his mother.

That's his mother.

She was like, he was a dick.

Damn.

She tried actually because she could see that Billy was struggling.

I mean, he had just lost his dad and now he's acting out.

So she's like, OK, he needs help.

Yeah.

So she tried to get help for him and she went to her friends and family for advice on how to handle him.

But she said, quote, everybody's solution was beat the shit out of him.

And she really didn't have any interest in beating any of her children.

Oh my God.

So she just tried to keep the peace when she was home.

I'm glad she didn't have interest in beating her children.

Me too.

I was happy to hear that.

My goodness.

But unfortunately, like we were saying, to provide that home, she wasn't able to be there much.

Yeah, because she's got to work.

Billy was struggling emotionally and left mostly to his own devices.

And then now he's really starting to struggle with feelings that he's having for Pam.

He knows they can't be together because she's 22 and he's 15 at this point.

But it's confusing for him because she seems to be paying special interest to him

and she seems like she likes him too.

So he's like, I don't really know what to do about all this.

So instead of really like talking about it, but anybody about it,

he just would go to Pam and keep hanging out with her.

And like the two of them would flirt with each other.

Now Pam, as we know, she was going through a lot of changes and a lot of turmoil in her life.

Her marriage was crumbling at that point.

She and Greg barely had anything in common anymore.

And one night around Christmas, 1989, Greg spent the night out drinking with friends

and he didn't come home.

It was another Boston night.

Oh man.

Didn't come home until the next morning.

At first he was like, I didn't come back because I was too drunk and I didn't want to drive.

So I slept at my friend's house, but she was like, I know that's not the truth.

Like what really happened?

And eventually she got the truth out of him.

He had cheated on her.

Oh no.

So the tension grew between them and over the course of a few days,

things reached a breaking point one night when Pam showed up at Greg's parents' house

in the middle of the night, dressed in her pajamas.

And she says to them in the middle of the night, just in her pajamas,

that Greg had slapped her across the face, bent her over a railing in their condo,

and attempted to strangle her.

Oh my God.

I know.

Now obviously it was just Greg and Pam when this happened.

So none of us have any idea if this happened or not.

Very well could have.

Absolutely.

Very well could not have.

Who knows?

It's unclear.

But when Bill Smart confronted his son about it, Greg denied it and said,

I haven't even touched her.

She's a pain in the ass.

I just told her to get the hell out of here.

And then Pam would later claim that the slap was accidental.

Okay.

And none of their friends had any recollection of it happening.

But whether it happened or not, that incident kind of seemed to be the trigger

point for the end of the marriage.

Makes sense.

You know.

And it's one of those things where it's like there's three versions of the story.

Yours mine in the truth.

So I'm never going to know what actually happened.

Like do I think they probably got into a fucking nasty argument?

Yes.

But I am nobody to say what happened past that.

Yeah.

Like the physical portion of it.

Would it shock me?

No.

But I can't.

I wasn't there.

Exactly.

Now as Pam's life and dairy was rapidly disintegrating,

she opted to spend more time in Hampton where she was getting idolized by Cecilia

and worshipped by Billy.

Now by February, they were still meeting several times a week.

And Billy was still spending any free time he had hanging out with Pam either in her

office or at her condo.

And one day in early February, Pam brought some undeveloped film to Billy.

He had previously told her that his upstairs neighbor or one of his upstairs

neighbors owned a one hour photo shop so he could get her a discount on photo processing.

Okay.

So later that day when the photos were ready to pick up,

Pam and Billy drove together to get them.

And Pam immediately opened them up in the parking lot and just started like

lolling to herself about them.

She was posing seductively in her bra and underwear.

And she then handed those pictures to Billy to look at.

Oh, I hate that a lot.

Please remember that she's 22 and this boy is a motherfucking sophomore in high school.

Yep.

She knew exactly what she was doing.

Yep.

Also, the photos are laughable and you can Google them.

Oh god.

It's just like what are you doing?

Yeah.

It's you took those knowing that you were going to give them to a 15 year old.

Come on.

And that's so yucka yucka.

Very yucka yucka.

The most yucka yucka.

So the next day she brought the photos to work with her and she told Billy she didn't

think any of them were very good so he could take any of them if he wanted to keep them.

Like how do you even have that conversation?

I don't want to know.

How?

How you ask?

I retract.

So later that afternoon she called Cecilia into her office and she was like I really have

to talk to you about something but it's personal.

Now clearly like from the outside of this as adults we're like oh she's grooming them.

Yeah.

She's slowly testing the waters while she plans to lead up to something more shocking.

Yeah.

Crazy requests and then eventually straight up violations.

She knows her audience.

She knows that they're looking for positive attention, validation and that because they

were in the position that they were they weren't going to catch on to all the red flags that she

was throwing their way.

Is this so sick?

It's fucked.

So once Cecilia went into Pam's office Pam was like oh my god girl sit down I gotta talk to you.

And by now they had had so many chats about personal matters.

So this wasn't strange.

So it didn't feel weird to Cecilia.

Exactly because she was groomed.

Now Pam just blurted out to Cecilia.

I think I'm in love with Bill.

Oh my god.

Now Cecilia just smiled probably very unsure about what the fuck she was supposed to make

of what Pam just said to her.

Yeah.

And I mean the idea was absolutely insane.

Pam was an adult.

Billy was a teenager.

So at first Cecilia probably was like a lol like what?

Well and it's like she's making it seem like she's confiding something in you.

So like you you are on that level with her.

You're my you're my good girlfriend.

Yeah like I'm confiding in you.

Right.

Like so Cecilia is like what?

And like so Pam had to convince her that she was serious.

And once she was convinced Pam asked her if she could pass a message along to Billy.

She said ask him to come by the media center after school so I can tell him myself.

Oh my god.

So Billy did as he was asked but when he showed up in Pam's office she was like really flustered

and couldn't get what she wanted to say out.

So he left because um he had to catch the school bus home.

Because he's a child.

He doesn't even have a license y'all.

He's taking the school bus home and his administrator was about to tell him that

she's in love with him.

I hate this.

This full grown married individual is putting her two index fingers together like

I think I have a crush on you Billy.

Ew I hate it.

Like get a grip.

So the next day Billy skipped his free study period and went to Pam's office again and

he was like what the fuck is going on?

Like why are you being so weird around me?

This is coming out of nowhere.

So she started being like awkward and seemed like she was embarrassed and she put her head

down to avoid eye contact with him and said do you ever think about me when I'm not around?

Oh my god.

And Billy was like oh my gosh I know exactly what you're talking about like yes I always do.

And I mean he was completely stunned of course but he was also over the fucking moon.

Of course he's a 15 year old she's 22.

So he told her yeah I do think about you all the time and then they like talked about

their feelings for each other briefly before Billy had to go back to his high school classes.

Oh my god I hate it.

He was like yeah Pam I really do think about you all the time but I gotta get back to biology.

I have to go to fifth period.

It's like Jesus fucking Christ.

That's so gross.

So things were awkward in the days that followed but eventually that awkwardness just went all

the way to the wayside.

I don't know.

A few weeks later Pam visited Billy at his home while his mother made dinner in the kitchen

and Pam went up to his bedroom, closed the door behind her, try your best not to picture this

but Billy was laying on his bed.

Pam was leaned against the door and starry eyes by Motley Crue was playing in the background.

I hate everything about this.

Don't picture it.

I'm not.

Nope.

Pam asked Billy if he was going to kiss her you know with the romance of starry eyes.

And he was like oh my gosh totally but being the timid boy that she was he wasn't getting

up to make a move so Pam strode across the room and kissed him while his mother was making

spaghetti downstairs because he can't even cook his own meals.

I hate it.

I'm losing it.

I just threw my computer.

I'm closing my eyes and just trying to like rub away.

This is called disassociating.

Like his mom is downstairs you fucking crazy woman.

Oh that's so awful.

And she isn't thinking any of this because again this is not a teacher.

No.

And she's probably like I don't know what the fuck's going on.

This is a violation of all kinds.

So a couple weeks after the kiss it's going to get so much more violent lady.

Greg went out of town on a ski trip and Pam asked Billy if he would like to spend the

night with her at her condo in Derry.

So for Billy who had been fantasizing about this very scenario since the moment he fucking

met Pam this entire thing is feeling surreal and he's like hell to the yeah.

I hate it.

So he went and that night he basically just shared an ordinary night with Pam like an ordinary

couple would except he's 15.

It's very upsetting.

They had dinner together.

They watched nine and a half weeks and then they retired to the bedroom.

Pam dressed up in lingerie and danced seductively for Billy.

Oh my god.

Reenacting a scene from the film and Billy would later tell a jury.

She said she always wanted to dance for somebody like that but there was never anybody she

could do it for.

How about your full grown husband?

How about the man that you married?

How about that?

Like I wrote an asterisk here and I wrote fucking twisted.

So fucking twisted.

That's exactly what it is.

Fucking twisted.

So now she's got her hold on Billy secure and she is quickly, quickly escalating things

between them.

Now she's discussing her relationship with Greg with Billy and according to Billy Pam

only married Greg quote because back then it was the thing to do.

To marry the Greg.

And also back then it was like two years ago you motherfucker.

Back then.

But she would always talk to Billy about the different ways that Greg was physically and

emotionally abusing her according to her because again we don't know.

Yeah.

I mean it's abusive to spit beer in somebody's face.

Absolutely it is.

But she said there was also supposedly a time where he locked her out of the house

in the snow and she was only wearing her bra on underwear.

Jesus.

And I was like I would hope not because like his parents lived five minutes away.

Like that's awkward.

But we don't know if that's true.

Yeah we don't know.

But she was very, very clearly trying to appear like she was a damsel in distress.

A woman in need of saving and it was working because Billy never liked Greg obviously because

he's Pam's husband and a newfound rival.

But now he's hearing regular descriptions of domestic violence at Greg's hands.

Yeah.

So he hates Greg for what Pam claims he's doing to her.

Of course.

So a few weeks later during one of her rants about Greg's dismissive and sometimes abusive behavior.

Pam reminded Billy of a time when she asked whether or not

he knew somebody that would kill for money.

I don't know how that had come up previously.

You know that doesn't often come up in my conversations I will say.

I don't think I've ever asked anybody if they knew someone.

If they just happened to know someone.

That was a hit man.

Yeah that's never really something that just casually comes up in my life.

Not me either.

But not me.

Not me.

Could it be me.

No way.

But apparently when she first asked she had made the question a joke.

It was something about like needing to get rid of her secretary so she could get the job for her friend.

Like it was silly.

Yeah.

But now Pam seemed serious.

Only this time obviously it wasn't her secretary that she wanted to have killed.

It was her husband.

So after a few weeks of hearing how terrible Greg was.

Billy understood that Pam was angry and frustrated.

But at the same time he also found it very hard to believe that she actually wanted her husband murdered.

Yeah.

It might be pretty tough to wrap your head around that.

Yeah I would hope that would be strange to hear.

Later on he would say he did become convinced when Pam quote

started crying and said the only way she could excuse me Pam started crying

and said the only way she could see for us to be together is if we kill Greg.

The thing is and I know he's 15 so like this isn't like he's not gonna.

Wow you should understand that.

Like when you're looking at it from an outside perspective you're like

but there is no way for you two to be together because you're an adult and he is a child.

And that is not consensual or okay in any way.

So whether your husband is dead or alive and you divorce him you still can't be together.

Nope.

It's still against all laws of goodness and law.

Like how are you gonna tell your mom that you're dating a 22 year old Billy?

You can't do that.

I don't think she's gonna go for that.

So it's like guys no matter what I don't know why it's like he has to be dead.

That's the only thing stopping us from being together.

No the law of the land is what's stopping you from being together.

Are you idiots?

Like are you kidding me?

Well so Billy did understand that there were other options.

He was like what about divorce?

Yeah.

And she said divorce simply wasn't an option.

Pam said quote because everything was in Greg's name or I believe it was um Billy that said this

excuse me because everything was in Greg's name and he'd take the car the dog the furniture and

the money and she'd have to move in with her mother.

Okay well if you guys have loves and that should be it right?

And also like she'd have to move in with her mother she'd have to be a necessary to murder.

Like I think one outweighs the other.

I think one is better.

Like even I have a shitty mom but I'd move in with her over killing my husband.

And it's like he's not gonna take everything like you're gonna go through like an equitable

equitable division of the assets.

Exactly.

Like get fucked girl.

Get fucked.

Get fucked.

Get wrecked.

Get wrecked.

So knowing how attached and infatuated Billy was with her though Pam took one thing took

things one step further and she told Billy we won't be able to spend time together outside

of school as long as Greg's alive.

You can't spend time together anyway outside of school.

He is a child.

Even if he's alive and you're diverse you still can't hang out outside of school.

You can't.

She's so manipulative and horrible.

She's so manipulative.

Even like in in prison I'm pretty sure she there's been like stories that have come out

over the years where you're like oh yeah people don't stop.

Yeah these kind of people don't stop.

From the moment though Pam brought up the potential of killing Greg the subject became

an almost constant topic of conversation.

First just between Pam and Billy but then eventually between Pam, Billy and Cecilia.

Uh-oh.

At first it was like an air of secrecy thing and it was like excitement around the affair.

Their relationship was like part teenage romance.

They would like pass notes and have sex in parking lots.

Ew.

And also dangerous.

Yeah.

Like there was that whole side of it but they loved that.

Of course.

They fed off of that.

But it was also illegal and at the very least Pam would get fired if anybody found out.

But eventually her repeated appeals for Billy to kill Greg took on a way more serious and way

more urgent tone and it made it seem like she was ready and serious.

So after a few weeks of badgering Billy finally caved and agreed to kill Greg smart.

He would later say I was afraid if I didn't do it she would leave me and that would be it.

So once Billy agreed to kill Greg it was like there was literally no other subject

subject between them worth talking about.

Just like she had with the orange juice video and every other project in her life,

Pam took over.

She planned the murder like it was a project she was working on for school.

She settled on the old classic.

They would make the murder look like Greg had been killed in a...

Accident.

Robbery gone wrong.

Close.

Robbery gone wrong.

I mean also an accident.

Accident.

You should have seen her face.

I got very excited.

That was cute.

I was like I nailed it.

Accident.

I was like almost.

Yours makes more sense.

At that point though everything still seemed like it was fantasy or a movie.

Pam was like Billy here's what you're gonna do.

You're gonna dress in all black.

You're gonna park the car.

He doesn't have one or a license to operate one.

Know a few blocks from the condo then you're gonna walk to my house

and you're gonna wait for Greg to get home.

And every day the plan was refined more and more.

Billy should wear gloves to avoid leaving fingerprints.

He should tie his hair back so nobody could identify him.

He should wreck the house to make it seem like they've been robbed and so on and so forth.

Now Pam meanwhile was going to establish a strong alibi

by going to a school board meeting in Hampton at the time of the killing.

Genius.

Genius.

Brilliant.

Oh my god Pam how'd you come up with it?

Wow this is just the brain trust at work.

Excuse me I had to cough.

Stop coughing how dare you.

But what the plan seemed to lack was um

any realistic discussion of what it would be like to actually murder somebody

or how Billy should even go about murdering him in the first place.

Yeah that'll just come.

You know why I talk about that.

What?

Why figure that out.

Now even though the plan was for Billy to murder Greg

Pam wasted absolutely no time in making Cecilia an accomplice

by keeping her updated on the plan.

She knew every last step.

She was therefore many of the discussions between Pam and Billy

and her knowledge would later make her an asset

to potential investigators and potential prosecutors.

Okay now when it came time to do the actual killing

Pam had everything planned down to the smallest detail.

She was going to leave the door to the basement unlocked

so that Billy could slip in undetected.

Once inside he was to bring the couple's dog

Halen.

Halen fuck!

Why can't I say that?

Halen you said it right.

Oh I said it right and then I said yes myself.

Yeah you said it right and then you changed it so you were correct.

Thank you brother.

Nailed it.

Once inside he would bring the couple's dog Halen

into the basement so as not to cause any commotion.

I always hate that part of things.

I know.

When they like throw a dog in like a bathroom or something to kill the owner and it's like

what do you do and it's always a tiny dog because they can do that.

You know like with a tiny dog like a big dog's gonna fuck your world up.

Hell yeah they are.

But it's like these poor little tiny baby dogs are always just like tossed in a bedroom

or a closet or something.

And then they hear the commotion.

While their person is being murdered out there.

That part always gets me.

It's like when somebody takes off somebody's glasses before they do something or like rips

their glasses off it's just like.

That's exactly it.

It just like stresses me out.

It like adds to it.

Yeah.

But so once Halen was in the basement then Billy would return to the first floor and wait for

Greg to come home at which point he was to shoot Greg in the head and then trash the apartment

to make it look like he'd been killed again when he walked in on a robbery.

Yeah.

Now even as they planned meticulously Cecilia definitely never thought that these two were

actually going to go through with the plan.

She was just like wow this is fucking wild that you guys are talking about this.

Guys everybody stop assuming they're not going to go forward in the plan.

Every fucking story I tell every fucking story.

It's like I heard them plan it like meticulously.

But I didn't think they'd do it.

But I never thought they'd do it.

And it's like yes I understand.

It sounds like you're like a more logical person Cecilia in that way where you're saying well

there's no way that these two idiots are going to kill her husband.

Like that's wild.

But like also if they're talking about it like normal people don't talk about killing their

husbands.

No they don't.

That's just that's not a.

That's standard practice.

That's really not something that just gets thrown about and then you all lull about it

and you move on.

If they're talking about it they in some way in some part of their soul they are planning

to do this.

It's true.

Just a little PSA to everybody.

You should go home and tell your mom.

Yeah so tell someone.

Anybody.

Now she would later tell investigators that Billy just wasn't a violent kid.

Sure he was angry but enough that he would execute somebody in cold blood.

Probably not.

Probably not.

So that was most likely why she continued to go along with it even when they started

brainstorming where Billy was going to get a gun because they plotted that whole part

before they even had access to a gun.

Now Cecilia actually did contribute to the plan and suggested that Billy could use her

father's gun but she hadn't seen her dad in several years so that wasn't really a viable

option.

Wow yeah.

Then she suggested a woman she worked with at Papa Geno.

She said she knew this lady kept a handgun in the glove compartment of her car and that

actually seemed like a pretty easy option because Billy loved stealing things from vehicles so he

said whoa another one let's go.

Yeah I love doing this.

So he hung around the parking lot of the Papa Geno several nights in a row until he

finally was able to break into the woman's car but when he did there was no gun in the

compartment.

So ultimately they would use a gun that they stole from JR's father.

Okay.

With hollow point bullets Billy convinced a friend to buy for him.

Now he said the reason for the hollow points was quote because they would be the quickest

and most painless.

Oh this is like really chilling.

It's so chilling.

Now Pam and Billy had spent so long talking about killing Greg that the whole thing kind of

just seemed like a perverse game and for that reason it probably came as a shock to Billy when

one afternoon in late March Pam insisted that it couldn't wait any longer and it needed to

be done that night.

Jesus.

But the problem was that Billy still didn't have a gun, did not have a car or a license

to operate one.

Because he's a child.

Pam your lover is a virgin who can't drive.

Okay.

That was a perfect insertion of that line.

Thank you.

Appreciate that.

Now when Billy pointed all these facts out all Pam had to offer was well hurry up and get

them by tonight.

Okay.

What?

What?

What?

So Billy was like okay I'll try but he couldn't like figure that out and he wasn't ready to

murder somebody in cold blood.

He said it's not something I wanted to do and I didn't think she'd be mad or anything if I

didn't at least at first he didn't think that.

But unfortunately Billy was very wrong.

Pam was in fact very angry that he didn't follow through with the murder of her current

husband.

When he called her later to tell her that he hadn't done it she exploded on him and

screamed at him through the phone.

You don't love me if you did you would do this for me.

It's the only way we could be together and if you loved me then you would want us to be together.

Wow.

Now this was the first time he had seen her pissed off because she's been grooming him so

she's been building him up.

Oh yeah.

Building him up and building him up and not showing any of her real self.

Now she's about to fucking lose it on him.

Now through tears he probably started crying and was like okay next time I'm going to go

through with it but she persisted and screamed at him I know you're never going to do this.

You don't have any intention of doing this and I can't go on seeing you like this if we're not

going to be together and then she slammed the phone on the receiver and hung up on him.

That's so fucked up.

It's so manipulative.

That's so fucked up.

This is a child.

This is a 15 year old.

And she knows that.

Like yeah a 15 year old should know better than to murder someone.

That is absolutely 100% true but on the other side of this a fucking adult should know that

a 15 year old in a 15 year old boy who is clearly like in puppy love with you is highly

impressionable.

And she does.

She does know that.

Exactly and that's the thing it's like there's wrongs here on each level but her

bed this imbalance of power here is so beyond fucked.

Absolutely and remember everybody it never would have happened if it weren't for Pam

Smart.

Yeah.

Billy never would have murdered.

He wouldn't have just randomly murdered this guy.

Like if it were not for Pam.

He wasn't showing any kind of like sure he was like a little thief.

Yeah he was like he was a shitty kid.

Yeah for sure.

But it's even his mom was like he was kind of a prick.

He didn't really show like true like who knows none of us really know but it's like

likely wouldn't have.

No.

No.

No.

So the next day Cecilia pulled Billy aside and she said Pam wants to see you.

Now in her office in the media center Pam apologized for yelling at Billy on the phone

and said don't worry there's another school board meeting scheduled for next month so

you'll have another chance to kill Greg.

And Billy said later yeah right Billy said later that's when I started getting serious

about it.

I thought that if I do something like I thought that if I do something like not go through

with it she's going to leave me and that's going to be it.

This is the time I really started talking to JR and Pete about it.

Those were his two friends and that is where we're going to wrap up for part one.

I knew it.

But next week we're going to get into the final plan the night of the murder and the

subsequent trials of those involved but something to think about more people are involved than

you might think later on.

Okay.

This this plan gets finalized with a lot more players than you're probably thinking at this

moment.

This is just so messy.

It's a bunch of fucking malarkey.

It's so messy.

From the beginning of this marriage until the end I'm sure it's all messy.

It's absolutely terrible.

These are two people that definitely should not have gotten married.

No.

These are two people that never should have met like Billy and Pam.

Yeah.

And this is a relationship that never should have occurred.

Exactly.

Multiple relationships that never should have occurred between Billy and

Pam and Cecilia and Pam and inappropriate relationships for sure.

So with that being said we hope you keep listening.

And we hope you keep it weird.

But never this fucking weird or or else.

Literally never this weird.

Don't be a listener of the show and keep it that fucking weird.

Don't.

You know how weird to take it.

Okay.

Oh.

And this is not it.

It's not it.

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Machine-generated transcript that may contain inaccuracies.