Morbid: Episode 448: Burke & Hare Part 2

Hey, Prime members, you can listen to Morbid early and add free on Amazon Music.

If you love true crime, the Generation Y podcast is essential listening.

I have really, really cool news.

Okay, so about a year ago, I got to share the absolutely life-changing, mind-blowing,

like, universe-warping news about writing my first book, The Butcher and the Wren.

I could never have dreamed of the support that I received then and that the book continues

to receive now from all of you.

You are amazing.

You set records with the numbers of pre-orders.

You made every edition a bestseller.

It's you guys.

You did it.

And it was even nominated recently for an audio award.

It's for Best Audio Book with a multi-voice performance.

Yep, yep.

Those voice actors are the best.

And now I am so proud and so thrilled to share two pieces of incredible news with you.

I have been sitting on these two pieces of news forever and I can't wait to scream them to you.

So the first one is that The Butcher and the Wren is going to be out in paperback.

This summer on July 25th.

So you can finally get that paperback edition.

And to make this even cooler, guess what the paperback edition is going to have?

What?

It's going to have a sneak peek of a chapter from book two.

Oh my god.

And guess what?

I got to read it and I can tell you it's a really good chapter.

It is, that's right.

There's going to be a sequel.

It is coming.

You get to read part of it in that paperback if you get it.

And what's even better is that my publisher is giving away free signed copies of the paperback

to the first 50 people who pre-order.

So if you want to pre-order the paperback with that sneak peek chapter of book two in it,

you can go to tinyurl.com slash T-B-A-T-W paperback.

That's tinyurl.com slash T-B-A-T-W paperback.

Thank you guys so much.

You're amazing.

Thank you so much for listening, supporting, reading, being the best weirdos that you ever

could be.

I can't tell you how much I appreciate you and love you.

I just want to hug you all, but I won't because it's virtual, but like feel it.

Okay.

I can't wait for you guys to read more Jeremy and Ren this summer.

And it's going to be awesome.

Just you wait.

Kapowee.

Hey weirdos, I'm Ash and I'm Elena and this right here that you're listening to is morbid.

It sure is.

Yeah, it sure is.

It remains to be so.

Whoa, that was poetry.

I am poetry.

You are poetry.

No, you know what you are?

You prose.

I'm prose.

That's beautiful.

Yeah.

I love the word prose.

I do too.

Prose was a sponsor of ours one time.

It's been, yeah, it's been a sponsor.

Yeah, prose.

I like prose, you know?

This is not an ad.

I was going to say the word prose has no meaning anymore, but it's fun while it lasted.

Prose.

Prose.

Guys, it's only Tuesday and we're losing our GD minds.

Yeah, I never have a week like that.

It's been quite, quite a week.

It's just, you know, it's 2023, man.

Yeah, I'm like, I was like, oh, it's going to be such a great year because I'm getting

married that year.

That's probably the only good thing that will take place.

But you know what?

We're having a positive attitude because we have positive candles.

And lots of statues.

Yeah, Mikey really like positive vibe to this place up.

The joy candle is wild and over there.

Yeah, we have like a positive energy candle and she is lit right now and she's also lit.

Like she's like, we lit her and then she got lit herself.

Like she is really going off right now, which makes me think that she's like, hey,

bitches, stop talking so negatively.

I am positive energy hear me roar and she's engulfing this room in flames.

Yeah, and I have some intention flowers sitting next to me.

Yeah.

I have a whole shelf that Mikey put together for me.

So it's positive vibes only, okay?

Positive vibes only even when there's tons of shit happening around us that is not great.

So I was going to like start making an acronym of everything you said,

but then you really just kept going and I lost the letters.

But I was like, P. V. O. Oh, wait, she's doing more.

P. V. O. P. W. T. S. Oh, did I say shitty or bad?

Okay, I said shitty.

Of course you said shitty.

T. H. A. U.

P. V. O. That's what I'm trying to tell you.

You know, that's what everybody's motto should be.

So anyway.

What is it again?

Say it again.

P. V. O. P. S. R. T. R. O.

Yep, there's your motto.

That's your affirmation for today.

But positive vibes only here and you guys rule.

I was talking to a listener today.

You were?

Yes, I was because her name is Danny and she's awesome.

I really like her.

Is she a phantom?

She's a phantom.

There you go.

I don't know.

I'll ask.

I love to touch him.

But the reason that I was chatting briefly with her was I think in one of the recent episodes

we were talking about how, oh, we were talking about it with JVN.

We were talking about how we put butter on pop tarts.

Oh, hell yeah.

And I was like, is that gross, everybody?

But no, she was like, I do that too.

And then she was like, also don't judge me.

But I put butter with my peanut butter on toast.

I do that too.

And so do you.

And she said I put butter on saltines.

And I was like, bitch, are we the same person?

Because I was like, wait a second.

See, that's spooky.

That is spooky.

That shit, also that's spooky is a great podcast.

Go listen to it.

But that shit is spooky.

I thought that stuff that whenever I do it, everyone around me is like, that's really gross.

And like you should check yourself before you wreck yourself.

So yeah.

To hear somebody sit there and just out with it, say like I also do these two very niche things.

Do you think that putting butter on before peanut butter is niche?

I feel like it is.

Because everyone I've ever mentioned it to is like, that's really gross.

I wonder if I got it from you.

I must have gotten it from you.

You did.

Because I think I got it from dad.

And then I probably passed it to you because I was like, try this.

It's fucking good.

Because John is horrified by it.

Every time I do it, he's like, you are something else.

No, everybody should give it a shot.

Where I do draw the line though is butter on saltines.

Have you tried it though?

No.

No.

Have you tried it?

You haven't tried it.

I'm going to have you try it and you're going to go.

I probably will.

I love a good dipping.

Because you don't like smearing butter on it.

It's just like a light little dabble do ya on it.

And you just take it just with the salt.

I don't know what it just like gives it a little, little sweet, little salty.

It's just enough.

Not too much.

I might have made this confession before about saltines on this podcast.

But if I haven't got ready for a fucking wild one, this is disgusting.

You one of those wild people?

Not anymore, no.

Like, no.

But when I was little, this is like a gross fucking nasty thing that I did when I was little.

I didn't require supervision.

Well, I did require it, but I didn't get it.

I used to dip my saltines into water and eat them.

And sometimes this is so gross.

We used to live with this lady named Judy, me and my mom, and she was Judy, was the best.

But like, she ran a daycare, so there was a lot of us to keep track of.

So, you know, maybe I wasn't always getting the eyes on me.

I used to dip my saltines into the pool and eat them.

How fucking gross is that?

Mikey's head just whipped over here.

I would like to tell you that I was like seven.

How old were you?

No, no, no, I would like to tell you today.

Oh, I thought you were saying I would like to say that I was seven.

But I was actually 17.

It was actually last week, I'm just kidding.

I'm actually about to do it now.

No, but I'm actually going to go find the nearest pool and bag saltines

and have myself a good time.

Have myself a day.

Have myself an afternoon.

Isn't that so foul?

That's foul.

And it wasn't even a saltwater pool because like, no.

That's one of those things that like, I'm always of the mind like, have you tried it?

But you know what?

Not tried different saltines.

I feel like that's one of those things that I can say is not great.

Yeah.

I also wrote my name on the wall at Judy's house because I had recently seen Madeline

do that in her movie.

But fun fact, you get in trouble for writing on Judy's walls.

In case you were thinking of writing on Judy's walls.

You get in trouble.

You will get in trouble.

And gymnastics will get taken away from you.

Aw.

I know.

Don't take after school activities away.

Never.

It's important.

Yeah.

I don't know.

That's just me.

I'm not telling you how to parent.

Whatever.

So what did these fuckers do next?

So I think we should, yeah.

So, but you know, a shout out to Danny for being the same person that I am.

Like, what's up, soul sister?

Danny, did you think your saltines in the pool

because we could also be friends?

We could also be friends.

She's like, girl, step back.

She's like, no.

The line has been drawn.

She said, I don't identify with you.

But yeah, that was funny.

So that was a nice like little like,

it's a nice moment to like connect first.

Yeah.

I can be like, girl, yeah.

But now we're going to get into some terrible shit.

We're going to get into part two of Burke and Hare.

These fuckers suck.

I know.

And that's the thing.

Whenever you say like, oh, we're going to talk about Burke and Hare.

It sounds like a fun story.

It sounds whimsical.

It sounds like a fairy tale.

Like, it does sound like a fairy tale.

I don't know why I said it that way.

It sounds so fairy like.

It's fairy like.

It was a soul.

It does sound whimsical.

I agree with you.

But when we last left them,

they murdered a grandma and her grandson separately, right?

Yep.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And all four seemed to have involvement.

Yeah.

And then Dr. Knox there was like,

oh, weird that you brought in an old lady and her grandson.

At the same time.

They don't look as good.

So I'm going to give you a little less money for it.

And it's like, my guy, my dude.

Like I'm on the record right now.

Yeah.

He knew.

Oh, are you?

You're not getting all these body, body,

body, body, body, bodies and not questioning it.

They just rolled in there with a woman and her grandson.

And you're telling me that you didn't question

that these two people died side by side.

Right.

And they had already been sus as fuck before.

Yeah.

Because of the last woman before they killed that.

Mary.

Yeah.

She was known in town.

They were the last people seen with her.

Yadidadu.

Yadidadu.

Like fuck this.

Yeah.

It's not great, but you know,

the last one that they had before we stopped part one

was Effie who they believed her name was Effie.

Right.

And then their confessions,

they were like, I think she went by Effie.

Oh, that's nice.

Also, I think that's the cutest name.

I didn't get a chance to say it last week.

Effie, it is very adorable.

Yeah.

It's, that's a whimsical name.

Oh, totally.

Effie.

I follow this girl, sorry, on TikTok that she will

categorize names and she does them into like whimsical names,

like old fashioned names.

That's fun.

I'm going to find her name later and tell you.

Yeah.

I want to know what my name would be categorized into.

Well, so she does like a baby name.

So I've actually never seen your name on there.

She does like, like if you want to.

My name was a baby name at one point.

No way.

Yeah.

It was?

Yeah.

I never seen you on there.

You're not whimsical.

You're not old fashioned.

At one point it was a baby name.

One day.

Because I was a baby at one point.

But you were a cute little baby.

I wasn't there to like witness it in person.

Please take photographic evidence.

Maybe I was in a different life.

One of your souls probably was.

Probably.

I think that.

Anyway.

But either way, poor Effie, she was a hawker.

She was actually known around town.

She was known to Burke.

Of course she was.

So she, and when I last told you guys,

she had gone door to door kind of selling

and I think she was going to sell him bits of leather

for his cobbling work.

Okay.

And he enticed her into a barn with alcohol

in the promise of rest.

Once she had fallen asleep,

he said he laid a cloth over her

and suffocated her as they did the others.

Oh, okay.

Then they just brought her to Knox's dissection room

and got 10 shillings for the body.

Wow.

Yep.

So as the summer went on,

the stress of maintaining this whole thing

was beginning to wear a little bit on Birkenhair,

not in the sense of them having remorse or guilt,

but just in the sense of stress of doing it.

Yeah.

And trying to maintain the whole thing.

And it was also, you know,

it was wearing on their significant others as well.

So Laird, like we talked about,

had been at least like on, like,

outsidely involved in the murder.

She was definitely there.

Yeah.

In participating somewhere.

Because they were in her boarding house, right?

Yeah.

And she was participating in some way,

luring people in, you know,

helping them with alcohol.

Alcohol.

Yeah.

Helen McDougal, like we said,

she had not actively involved herself

in any of the killings up to this point.

Except the grandson.

The grandson,

she didn't actively involve herself in his killing.

She was only there to calm him down

when he couldn't find his grandma.

Oh, okay.

So if we're talking specifically,

was she involved in a killing?

We have no evidence of that right now.

Okay.

That is to me.

But you're about to tell me something.

That to me is accomplished shit right there.

Like you were calming down this kid.

Yeah.

When did you know what was happening to his grandma?

Or did you not?

I mean, I feel like this is a small fucking boarding house.

That's what I think.

But, you know, I don't know.

But she, so she hadn't actively involved herself

in any of the killings, like I said.

And she's with Burke, just to lay that out first.

Yes.

So Hare actually ended up looking at that as a liability.

Because she hadn't actively involved herself

in any of the crimes.

But she was around.

And knew what was going on, it seems like.

Yeah.

Which it's one of those things where it's like,

if you're going to be around,

you better make one of the stab wounds

so that we can all point to you and say you did it too.

Yeah.

Otherwise you can just go, I didn't do anything,

but here's all the information.

And you don't have to be implicated at all.

That's how he was looking at it.

Exactly.

He was like the fact that the three of us

have been actively involved in these and she isn't,

but is around.

That's a problem.

Yeah.

So in fact, at one point, Hare had gone so far

as to suggest that Burke killed the woman

in order to protect themselves.

The fuck?

Yeah.

Hey, I think you should have off your wife

because she hasn't murdered with us yet.

Yeah.

He even came up with a plan, how to do it.

He wanted Burke to take her into the country

for a few weeks, then write Hare and inform him

of McDougall's death.

And of course, in reality, the murder would have been

committed in the back room of the boarding house.

Yes.

And with McDougall's corpse being just another one

of the bodies that they gave to Dr. Knox.

It's hate's wild.

My wife died.

Here she is.

Isn't that so wild?

So crazy that I've been getting all these bodies

for you and now my wife died.

And he was trying to have him set up an alibi.

Like he was trying to set this whole thing up.

He had really thought about this, which is scary.

If I was Burke, which one is?

Burke is with McDougall.

Yeah.

If I was Burke, I'd be worried that Hare

was going to kill my lady.

Yeah.

Well, that's, I mean, I guess fortunately

for Helen McDougall, Burke may have been

an opportunistic monster, like an actual piece of shit.

But I guess his one line was that

he wouldn't readily murder the woman

that he claimed to love, I suppose.

So they did not go forward with that plan.

Everyone's got a line.

Yeah.

But I'm not going to give him anything.

I'm not giving him anything, no.

At least he didn't do that, I guess.

Yeah.

So I think this kind of shows like the eagerness

with which Hare wanted to dispatch Helen McDougall.

That's kind of evidence of the growing tension

not only between the whole group

but between Burke and Hare specifically.

So then the next murder really didn't do anything

to relieve Burke's suspicions of Hare.

Like this made things worse.

So in early summer, Burke estimated it like late June,

which was around the anniversary of the battle of Bannockburn,

which I just thought was interesting, the name Bannockburn.

I like that.

Burke and McDougall had left Edinburgh

for a brief period of time just to visit friends in Falkirk.

Okay.

During this time, Hare and Laird were having

a lot of financial difficulties

and had ended up pawning everything they owned

that was of value.

Everything?

Yeah.

Anything that was of value they were pawning.

Something.

Yet when Burke and McDougall returned a short time later,

suddenly Hare and Laird appeared to no longer

have any financial troubles.

Interesting.

So when Burke asked Hare if he'd been

doing any business, you know what that means.

Do it.

I love that he's like doing any business.

Like these two are fucking business partners.

Are you kidding me?

Were you doing business when I wasn't here?

Wow.

So he asked him, were you doing any business

while I was away with Helen?

Hare denied it, said no.

However, in discussion with Dr. Knox,

Burke learned that during their absence,

Hare had quote,

fell in with a drunk woman in the street in the Westport

and enticed her back to the boarding house,

killed her and sold the body to Knox

and kept the money for himself and then lied about it.

What?

Which I'm like, wow, you guys are ship bag monsters.

And now you're even being ship bag monsters to each other.

Yeah.

I mean, it was only a matter of time.

It was.

Like you're not what you think you have a friend.

Like you're both sociopaths, you don't have a friend.

Neither one of you gives a shit about anybody.

Right.

So for some reason, Burke and Hare started getting

pretty reckless as the summer was drawing to an end.

I'm not sure why.

They just started getting very reckless.

The heat.

It's the heat, you know.

One night, the two spotted a policeman

by the name of Andrew Williamson

and he was dragging a very obviously drunk woman

to the Westport watch house.

So Burke saw this and called out,

let that woman go on to her lodgings.

And the police officer Williamson said,

he didn't know where the woman lived.

That's why he was taking her to the watch house

to keep her from spending the night on the street.

Yeah.

So he's like, I'm a good person.

Like I'm actually trying to do a good thing here, but cool.

So after like a brief conversation,

Burke was actually able to convince the officer

to release her to him.

She was brought back to the boarding house

and she was murdered and sold to Knox for 10 shillings.

If you don't tell me that this is how they got caught,

I am leaving the room.

According to Burke, he quote,

had a good character with police,

which is why he was able to convince that police officer

to release the very obviously drunk woman to him that night.

But this brazen act clearly suggests

a very misplaced confidence

that don't worry, in a few months at least,

will result in their capture.

But I'm telling you right now, this didn't do it.

I have to go.

He had a police officer hand a woman to him,

like who he murdered that night

and brought back to Dr. Knox and was paid for it.

That is beyond.

And they did not get caught.

And also the fact that it took months for them to get like,

and it's sad because again,

they are taking advantage of who they believe

to be quote unquote, less dead.

And they're just proving that stigma.

You literally take your victim from a police officer

and the police don't even realize

that this woman is who she is and that she got killed.

Exactly.

And that this police officer doesn't care.

Like just handed her over.

And that was it.

I don't need to know what happened to her after that.

So sad.

It's so sad.

And it really is such a misplaced confidence though,

because he's out here being like,

oh yeah, like I look at what I did.

Right.

I convinced a police officer to give it to me.

That as horrible as the situation is,

that is going to be the thing that takes them down,

is them thinking that this is who they are now.

They're able to have police officers just hand them victims.

They're above the law.

So that is going to be an issue for them later,

but it was too little too late.

Whenever you get,

whenever I feel like a murderer starts

to get that kind of confidence,

it's like a tailspin.

It's hubris.

Is that how you say that tailspin, yeah.

Ash can't say anything, but she can say tailspin.

Hell yeah.

And so in the late summer,

Burke and McDougal, Helen, his wife,

moved from Tanner's Close, the boarding house,

to a small cottage not far from the boarding house.

Okay.

There they shared this little cottage

with a couple called the Brogans.

I like that name.

I do too.

It's like very, I don't know why.

It's like cozy.

Yeah.

I'm just here with the Brogans.

I would call them the Brogies.

The Brogies.

I would just call them the Brogues.

I'm with my Brogies.

I'm just here with my Brogans.

So some have suggested that the move

was Burke's attempt to keep McDougal safe

because of what you were saying.

After Hare and Laird had suggested

that they murder her to keep her quiet,

he might have felt like he had to put

a little distance between Hare and his wife,

which I'm like,

you probably should stop murdering people

with that guy too.

It's a serious thing.

I don't know.

Well, and also I bet it was that

and then I bet what added onto it

was the fact that he committed a murder

without him and then lied about it.

You guys, the other day I was cleaning up my closet

because you know,

I'm switching from my winter wardrobe

to my spring wardrobe.

So excited about that.

Even more excited that I got to bring out

all my spring shoes,

which include all of my favorite

spring colored comfy Rothy's.

You need to put some spring into your step with Rothy's

with sustainably made flats

and bags in every bright color imaginable.

You will be re-energizing your looks

in absolutely no time.

You guys, I'm not even joking you.

I am far-reaking obsessed with these shoes.

First of all,

I've never tried another flat before

that didn't give me blisters.

And all my stinky feet girlies out there

and boys,

you can throw these in the washer

and they still look brand new

when you take them out.

They just don't stank.

They are super freaking durable.

I have worn mine all over the place.

I wear them outside running around with the kids

and they are super duper durable.

And they also look cute with any outfit.

You can dress up an outfit.

You can dress down an outfit

from their iconic lightweight tote

to fan favorites like the flat, the point

and the all new almond loafer.

Really excited to check that out.

Find an irresistible range

of hues designed to make you smile.

They also have freaking amazing quality.

45,000 five-star reviews

and counting just can't be wrong.

So for stylish and comfortable shoes,

shop Rothys.

Get $20 off your first purchase

at rothys.com slash morbid.

That's R-O-T-H-Y-S dot com slash morbid.

With Hello Fresh,

you get farm fresh,

pre-portioned ingredients

and seasonal recipes delivered

or right to your doorstep.

Skip those trips to the grocery store.

Ugh.

And count on Hello Fresh.

Ooh.

To make home cooking easy, fun and affordable.

That's why it's America's number one meal kit.

April, you guys, is Earth Month.

And Hello Fresh is always committed

to a cleaner planet.

On average,

Hello Fresh meals have a 31% lower carbon footprint

than the same meals made from supermarket ingredients.

Plus, nearly all Hello Fresh packaging materials

are curbside recyclable in most areas of the US.

So not only are you eating a delicious,

yummy, exquisite meal,

you are also being a better person

to the planet that we all live on.

You also can spend a heck of a lot less time

in the kitchen with the quick and easy meals

like Hello Fresh's fast and fresh pineapple chicken tacos.

I recommend those 10 out of 10.

Put pineapple in anything and I will eat it.

Also, put falafel in anything and I'll eat it.

And Hello Fresh did that.

They have falafel,

power bowls that are ready and 15 minutes are less.

I didn't have one of those the other night.

No, I'm actually really craving one.

But the other night,

I did the Greek goddess quinoa bowls.

I'm a sucker for quinoa.

Literally takes 30 minutes to prepare.

The freshest chickpeas I have ever put on my taste buds before

and easiest cleanup in the world,

10 out of 10 I had leftovers the next day

and I was so excited to eat lunch.

And if you want to be super excited to eat lunch or dinner

or any kind of meal,

go to hellofresh.com slash morbid50

and use code Morbid50 for 50% off plus free shipping.

Again, that's hellofresh.com slash morbid50

and use code Morbid50 for 50% off plus free shipping.

Hello Fresh is America's number one meal kit.

But it was at this house

that Burke and Hare met their next victim.

No.

A washerwoman by the name of Mrs. Hostler.

So one afternoon,

the woman had just finished her washing for the day

and Burke and Hare convinced her to return the following day

to have a few drinks with them.

They were very charming.

They were able to convince a lot of people to do this.

Sounds like it.

And she did.

So the next day after she'd become drunk,

they convinced her to lie down in an adjacent room

where they killed her by suffocation.

So this is what they did.

They get their people drunk and then they do it.

And their people who they know are desperate,

they know are on hard times,

they know are going to say yes to a lot of drinks

just to numb whatever is happening in their lives.

And it's fucked up.

It is.

And I feel like it's also so important to stay,

like how long it actually takes to suffocate someone.

Oh yeah.

This wasn't like a quote unquote easy way to get away with it

or like an easy way to do it.

Like these people are fucking monsters.

You have to stand there for like, what is it?

Isn't it like seven minutes or something?

It's very like for strangling.

It's definitely and for suffocation too.

It's probably similar.

It's brutal.

And it's aggressive.

It's violent.

It's aggressive.

Like nobody's laying their motionless.

They're laying their fighting for their lives trying to breathe.

Exactly.

It's awful.

So fucked.

And like for that to,

for you to stand over somebody for a matter of minutes

and do that, like you are beyond shut down.

Seriously.

Like there's gotta be just nothing in there.

It's just a cold empty box in there.

It's so crazy.

Well, then they just loaded her body into a box.

They stored that box in the coal house until later that afternoon.

And then they transported it to Dr. Knox and she got,

she, um, they got eight chillings for her body.

Oh, okay.

Not a full 10.

So like all over the place.

Yeah, he's just, he's just making random assessments of price here.

Make an assessment.

So not, I thought of that same thing, make an assessment.

Not long after the murder of Hossler Burke and, or excuse me, not,

I don't know why I just said that all in one sentence.

Don't you hate when you go to read a sentence that you wrote

and you're like, how do I speak?

How did I need to say that out loud?

Well, sometimes when you type something,

it sounds different in your head than the way you say it out loud.

That's that they, or I forget a punctuation mark

and then my brain just runs everything together.

I'm a punctuation monster.

I like over punctuate everything.

See, that's what happened here.

And then my brain's like, no comma, just keep going.

Who gives a fuck about it?

But what I meant was not long after the murder of Hossler Burke and McDougal

welcomed into their home and McDougal.

Same last name.

Yes.

It's a cousin of Helen's.

Bitch.

It was actually a cousin of Helen's previous husband.

So like tech.

Cousin in law.

Yeah.

That's a cousin though.

Drew's cousins are my cousins.

Still a cousin.

I love them.

Still a cousin.

One afternoon while the Brogans,

the other couple that they were living with were out of the house,

Burke and Hare murdered Anna McDougal.

They murdered his wife's cousin.

Yep.

What the fuck?

And it was with Hare doing most of the work, of course.

Burke was not the one who did most of the work.

So clearly Hare is trying to like put some,

some kind of message out there.

Yeah.

Like he's getting closer to her.

Oh my God.

And it's like Burke is allowing it.

That made my stomach flip actually.

Yeah.

Because she's like, I'm killing your family members now.

Oh my God.

He is.

They're both fucked.

But like that's another level.

Yeah.

It's, I'm, I'm just, I can't.

And because of this whole like, oh, it's a relative thing.

Burke said that he did not like to begin first on her

because she was a relative.

Oh, totally.

So don't worry about that.

What, was the wife like, hey, what happened to my fucking cousin?

Yeah.

She was like, what's going on here?

But they loaded her body into a trunk

and they intended to take her body to Knox.

But before they had the chance,

the Brogans came home.

And knowing that no one in the house owned a trunk,

they started asking several questions

as to the origin of this trunk

that was now sitting in their house.

I'm going to admit something to you.

I thought they put her in the trunk of a car

because I forgot that we were like way back.

We were way back.

I was like, nobody owned a trend.

No, no, no.

And I was like, oh, like steamer trunk.

Exactly.

Got you, got you.

When it became clear the couple was not going to stop asking

these questions, Burke and Hare,

hey, where did this fucking trunk come from and what's in it?

Like they were literally like, hey,

where did this trunk come from?

And they're like, don't worry about it.

And then like, they're also like, don't open it.

They like walk in the other room and put their coats up.

And they're like, but about that trunk,

like do you have any information?

And they're like, no, we don't.

And then they're like, OK, cool.

Can we open it and like see?

Can we like open the trunk and maybe just see what's inside?

No, we can't.

Well, maybe there's like a name inside.

Do you guys want dinner?

Yeah, we would love dinner.

Do you want to like, should we ask the trunk

if it wants to be part of dinner?

Like what?

They just aren't, we're going to let the trunk go.

I don't blame them.

I'm not going to let a random appearing trunk in my home go.

I'm not.

And Burke and Hare eventually, for the record.

Sorry.

Burke and Hare eventually sat down with the Brogans,

excuse me, Mr. Brogan, and explained the entire situation

to him.

They said, hey, it's just like times are tough

and we like to make extra money by murder.

And what do you think?

And then they said, hey, do you want to be in on this

and get some of the money?

If you don't say anything?

And he was like, okay.

And he meant it?

Yep, he meant it.

He said, okay.

I thought you were going to say he meant it

and then he, um, motioned for the police.

He said.

I knew you can't call them back then.

He said, yeah, that's fine with me.

Wow, how does horseshit find horseshit

that then find some more horseshit?

What's crazy too is that with each murder committed

in this particular period, they're just growing

increasingly reckless, first of all.

And they're also pulling apart from each other drastically.

Yeah.

They're doing things on their own.

They're not listening.

They're killing each other's relatives at this point.

Like shit's going down.

Now they're inviting other people into this whole scheme.

Like bitch, the more people you have in this scheme,

the more shit is going to fall apart.

It's not the Marrier.

No, it is not the Marrier.

They're also splitting that profit in way more pieces,

which is way less advantageous to them with,

they're murdering people.

Yeah.

And now you're splitting the profits.

Like now they're splitting it four ways.

But are they not because layered,

this one didn't take place in Laird's boarding home?

I think because she is part of it,

she gets that one shilling just for her silence.

Oh, I see.

That's how he's able to hold all these people.

They are able to hold all these people.

And that's why McDougal is such a liability today

because she's not getting anything for it.

She's not getting anything for her silence.

And they're not just going to pay her

unless she has something to do with it

because you need her hand to have blood on it.

So you can go, she did it too.

That way she's not going to be eager to go to the authorities

because then she has to admit that she's been part of it.

Okay.

So they're not getting that from her.

This is nuts though.

So that brings us to the beginning of the end.

Oh, I love the end.

So for obvious reasons and with very few exceptions,

Burke and Hare killed mainly elderly and incapacitated

and transient, like down on their luck women.

Yeah.

That seems to be there at all.

They go away from it.

Well, although they were almost always opportunists,

like they were always just,

they weren't like following people

and like trolling for days, you know what I mean?

Their preferred victim type likely had something to do

with the fact that women were just much easier

to overpower in their mind.

But what's wild is like at least one of them

and probably more of them,

there was evidence that they tried to fight back and resist.

And this became very evident in this whole thing

that like they were definitely doing this

because they could overpower their victims.

Yeah.

It became evident that they thought this was the case

and that it wasn't in October when they murdered James Wilson,

who was otherwise known as Daft Jamie.

What does like Daft mean again?

So I'll explain to you.

According to George McGregor Wilson,

he was described as quote,

a lad who well deficient in intellect was kind at heart.

Don't you dare ruin me right now.

He was a universal favorite.

Stop.

Among the townspeople he was.

Now, Jamie's had a very kind nature.

He was not confrontational.

He was not an aggressive man.

People loved him.

He was like very beloved.

But he also was kind of like a frequent target of bullies.

Fuck that.

They would just like taunt him and shit.

And in his early twenties,

by the time of this happening,

Jamie's father had died many years earlier

and her and his mother was a hawker

who was often traveling selling goods.

So he spent a lot of his time

just wandering the streets in Edinburgh.

If Jamie doesn't live, I'm leaving.

So as a result of this,

he became a very familiar figure to people around town,

especially to the people who would just out of the kindness

of their heart give him food and gifts

because he was just a nice kid.

He's in his twenties at this point,

but I say kid, but that's a kid.

That's a kid, yeah.

And they kind of like looked after him in a way

because like they just knew he was like, you know, he needed it.

See, there is some kind of community here.

Yeah, there is.

I was looking for it.

There is.

Now, Jamie Wilson was definitely not only the antithesis

of a typical Burke and Hare victim

because he was not a drinker.

He was not a woman.

Right.

He was not, he was pretty strong.

He's not an older person.

He's not older and he's well known to everybody in town.

Very well known.

Like this is like front page of Time Magazine,

kind of well known.

Like even more so than the previous person.

Very more so.

So this is just like totally the antithesis

of their typical victim.

He was also the stupidest choice for a victim

because like I said, he didn't drink.

You're not going to ply him away with alcohol.

So what the fuck is your move?

And then you're going to have to overpower him

while he's sober and can fight you.

He's not going to be easily lured away.

And when he is suddenly gone, everyone's going to notice immediately.

Yeah, he's like everyone's kid.

You're not going to be able to bring him to Dr. Knox

and have it be like, oh yeah, it's just weird.

Daph, Jamie just dropped in.

It's like, no, no one's going to believe that.

Now it was actually Margaret Laird who'd chosen Jamie as a victim

because she discovered him alone and looking for his mother

at a grass market one day in early October.

Fuck you Margaret.

Yep.

Fuck you.

That's what I said.

Now according to Burke,

Jamie agreed to accompany her back to the boarding house,

but he was very anxious the entire walk back to the house

and kept asking questions.

My God, you're ruining me.

When they reached the house,

Laird left Jamie with hair while she went to find Burke,

whom she eventually found at a local shop

and the two of them went back to Tanner's Close, the boarding house.

Back at the house, Laird left the three men alone,

which they offered Jamie some drinks.

And after a little while, and Jamie did drink with them.

Yeah.

He became a little tired and laid down at the bed

and that's the point where hair laid next to him.

No.

A few minutes passed before hair threw himself on top of Jamie

and attempted to cover his mouth and nose.

But it didn't work.

The same thing.

It didn't work.

Jamie, however, was neither drunk or incapacitated at this point.

So he started struggling and resisting

and the two men fell from the bed

and continued to struggle on the floor.

Eventually though, Burke was able to get a hold

of Jamie's feet and legs,

which he held tight as hair suffocated Jamie.

No.

So he like, they almost lost this one.

And this was the stupidest, thank goodness,

they were so stupid, but this is so tragic.

I'm like, so.

They're all tragic, but this one's just like.

Yeah.

Are you fucking kidding me?

And like Margaret, go fuck yourself.

Like he's looking for his mom and that's when you fucking pray.

And he's clearly like.

Yeah.

Like intellectually a little immature.

Yeah.

And it's like, he's looking for his mother

and he's like in his early 20, like, come on, man.

That is fucking disgusting.

It's vile.

Like I'm so angry right now.

It's, oh, I had hope.

I know, I feel, I felt bad building you up like that,

but I was like, I don't know how else to say this.

Well, that's how you tell the story.

Now in nearly every, every case,

Burke and Hare were very careful

to get rid of their victims' clothings

and whatever possession the victim had on them at the time.

So they just feel like.

I found them naked.

Essentially they just bring the body to Dr. Knox.

And in this case though,

their victim had a lot of belongings.

Most of the time their victim didn't have a lot of things on them

because they didn't have a lot of things in the world.

Was he walking around with like a lot of his things?

He had a lot of belongings and he had some things of value

because he was, he was, you know,

which they ended up just splitting between them.

They just stole all the things.

And eventually they gave his clothing to Burke's brother

who passed them on to his younger children.

And he knew.

Yep.

Fuck this.

Yep.

So, and this is the thing.

So his brother didn't know,

but like they, they knew that he was going to be,

they knew that Constantine was going to give these clothing,

these clothes to his children.

And they still allowed it to happen.

Because they have actually no souls.

Yeah.

Because of Constantine Burke

and the children didn't recognize the clothing.

So they were just like, okay,

they did eventually end up trading them for like other items

in town, but still.

So putting Jamie's very recognizable clothing

and belongings out in the public

because they were selling these goods now too.

Right.

That was a really bad idea.

Because it's not like you just like sold them

to like some random person.

You literally gave them to people in town

that are connected to you.

Exactly.

And then you sold the belongings he had to people in town

who are like, oh wait, I know what this is.

And oh, I got that from Burke.

Exactly.

Oh, I got that from hair or layer.

Exactly.

So the more significant problem was that the boy

would almost certainly be recognized by Dr. Knox.

Right.

That was the biggest problem.

Like when you bring this kid in,

they're going to know exactly who he is.

So indeed, when it was brought to him,

he wasn't home.

But when they arrived with the body,

his assistant didn't really look very quickly.

Okay.

So he just was like, okay.

And he was like, you know what,

can you return the next day and you know,

Knox will be here and he'll pay you.

So the next day when they did inspect the body,

several of Knox's students were like, that's Jamie.

And they were like, what the fuck?

But Knox was like, you know what?

Ready the body for dissection.

So he 100% recognized this body just like,

but he was like just ready for dissection.

What the actual fuck?

And then he assured his students,

this ever so fresh male subject

could not possibly be anyone they knew.

What?

Yeah.

Like you really need to dissect that bad.

You've had how many bodies have we had up to this point?

15.

Yeah.

Like I think you've learned some stuff.

Or maybe 14 at this point.

Take a second.

Yeah.

The fuck?

And later, these students were interviewed by police later,

obviously because they were very much like unwillingly involved in this.

Exactly.

They all told investigators,

they were pretty certain this was Jamie,

but they didn't want to swear on it

because they were, Knox had told them that it wasn't.

Well, and then they're all these,

they're being intimidated by somebody who has power.

So they're like, and can determine their future.

Exactly.

So the final murder occurred on October 31st.

Oh, yeah.

Did they do that like on purpose?

I don't know.

This is when Burke met Mary Dockarty,

and it was in a Reimer's grocery store that morning on October 31st.

So like the grandmother,

the pair had brutally murdered earlier that summer.

Dockarty had come from out of town in search of her son.

It was virtually unknown to anyone in Edinburgh.

Oh no.

So Burke struck up a conversation with this older woman,

telling her that he'd also come to Edinburgh.

He was from Ireland.

And you know, wow, crazy.

My mom's maiden name is Dockarty.

So maybe we're related.

Probably not.

So in what she likely took as a friendly gesture,

Burke invited her back to the home for breakfast with he and his wife.

And she was like, great, absolutely.

We're excited to make a friend, exactly.

Maybe they can help me find my son, that kind of thing.

So once they were in the house,

Helen McDougal tended to this new guest.

Well, Burke went off in search of hair.

Okay.

When he'd finally found hair,

they went back to Burke's house where they found Helen

and the guests cleaning up after breakfast.

Well, it would have been pretty easy

for them to overpower and murder Mrs. Dockarty

because she was very frail.

Sure.

The real issue that they were facing

was getting rid of the couple who had been staying with Burke

and McDougal for over a week.

There was another couple in the house.

And they must have seen her come in and eat breakfast.

Exactly.

So they were like, fuck.

So it's trying to think quickly here.

And Burke told this couple that he'd run into an old family friend

and he wondered if it would be terribly inconvenient for them

to maybe find another place to stay for a night or two

just so they could have this Mrs. Dockarty, this family friend.

He even went as far as suggesting

they could stay with hair and layered for a few days.

And the couple said, sure.

So that evening, things went about the usual way.

They had, so the couples had dinner with Mary Dockarty,

Burke and hair and layered.

They shared multiple meals with this woman.

Like really got to know her.

Probably heard all about her life.

All about her missing son.

They had dinner with her at Burke and McDougal's home.

Afterwards, they sang, they danced, they drank, had a great time with her.

They literally had a little party.

I just can't even.

But whatever the case was,

whether this was a planned ruse that way

or if they just really got into it that night

and were like enjoyed her company

and still decided to go through it,

around 10 or 11 that night,

it became a little loud and disruptive,

because they were getting,

that's like happy, loud and disruptive, not fighting.

Like dancing, drinking, singing.

And it was drawing attention of neighbors.

So people wanted to know what was going on.

So a woman from the house next door

went to look through the window

and she saw what she later told police was Helen McDougal,

quote, holding a bottle to the mouth of Dockarty,

pouring the whiskey down her throat.

I always knew that I saw Helen McDougal

for exactly who the fuck she was.

Mick, Dougal.

Later that evening, the disruption continued

when Burke and Hare got into an actual argument,

a violent one,

and they only stopped when Mary Dockarty

fell from her stool and crashed onto the floor.

Oh no, Mary.

And she couldn't get up.

So Laird and McDougal, the two women,

used the opportunity to get out of the house,

which is when Burke and Hare used the same method

that they always used to suffocate Mrs. Dockarty.

But they did do something a little different with her,

which I don't know if this was them

trying something different

that they were going to employ from here on out,

or if this was just, I don't know.

Okay.

But whichever men was doing the actual suffocating,

at some point they had used their hand

to strangle Mrs. Dockarty around the throat,

and this left deep bruises on her neck.

Scammers are best known for living the high life,

globetrotting on private jets,

dining at five-star restaurants,

and driving six figure sports cars.

That is until their house of cards collapses

and they're forced to trade it all in

for handcuffs and an orange jumpsuit.

Scamfluencers is a podcast from Wondery,

hosted by Sarah Hagi and Sachi Cole,

that tells the unbelievable true stories

behind some of the world's most infamous scams,

swindlers, and con artists.

Scamfluencers has covered jaw-dropping scandals,

from Ponzi schemes to a fake Saudi prince

to a sexual predator masquerading

as a wholesome yoga guru.

These scammers cost their victims hundreds of millions of dollars

and immeasurable emotional anguish.

So how does our culture allow them to thrive?

Each story on Scamfluencers will take you

along the twists and turns,

the impact on victims,

and what's left when the facade falls away.

Follow Scamfluencers wherever you get your podcasts.

You can listen ad-free on the Amazon Music or Wondery app.

Now, she was dead, they stripped her of her belongings,

and Burke sent for Knox's assistant,

and they explained that they just had another body to sell.

Wow, crazy.

It's, I can't.

Now, with this also, so they make the call,

they're like, hey, you need to pick up this body tomorrow.

And then they just went about the party.

Drinking, dancing, until the early hours of the morning.

With a dead body, and then they just murdered brutally.

They had just exactly, wow.

So the following day, November 1st, Burke went to the boarding house

to check on the lodgers that had been sent to the house.

Right.

And invite them back home for breakfast.

Just saying that, you know, their family friend,

that old woman that they had met yesterday,

she had grown very impudent,

perhaps having taken too much liquor,

and they found it necessary to put her out.

That's how they wanted to put it.

Put her out.

Yeah.

So one of these lodgers, Mrs. Gray,

thought that Burke was behaving a little strangely.

And she said he was very nervously watching her,

and calling after her when she began cleaning around

a pile of straw near the corner of the room.

Burke kept up his weird, like, anxious behavior

for most of the morning.

And when several of the occupants of the house

needed to go out that afternoon,

Burke actually instructed Mr. Brogan,

who knows about all this stuff now,

to sit in a chair by the bed in the corner

and not move until he returned.

Okay, Blair Witch, what the fuck?

So he did.

He sat in the chair.

He didn't ask questions at first.

And then when Burke left the house,

he waited until he was out of sight.

Because remember, this guy just joined this whole thing.

He just wanted money.

Yeah, he wasn't, he's not going to save your ass.

So Burke's out of sight.

Still a bad person.

So on the other side, he doesn't give a shit.

Like, this is not a good guy.

This is somebody who just doesn't give a shit.

Exactly.

So when he tells him you got to sit by this corner of the bed

near the straw in the corner, he's like, sure, sure, sure.

So he sits there, Burke leaves.

Once he's out of his sight, Brogan just leaves the house.

Okay.

Like, he didn't, he was like, I'm not doing that.

Yeah, like, okay.

Yeah, like, fuck off.

So he left the house and then Mrs. Gray,

the lodger who thought that he was acting very strange,

she's now alone in the house.

Yeah.

And she takes this opportunity to investigate

whatever it was by the bed that Burke was definitely trying

to hide and was definitely trying to have like guarded

by Mr. Brogan.

So she starts poking around the straw pile in the bed,

next to the bed, excuse me.

And she found the nude body of Mary Docherty.

Can you imagine?

All around her mouth and nose.

Why did she have blood around her mouth and nose?

Because she had been violently strangled.

And probably, I'm assuming,

should they might have like hit her or something.

Oh my God.

Something bad happened there.

And she also had fallen from her stool.

Right, I forgot about that.

I don't know if she had any like traumatic fall there.

So she literally finds this naked old woman

who was clearly murdered in a pile of straw

in the corner of their bedroom.

Wow.

So she knows why she was sent out to make the four.

So she immediately tells her husband.

She's like, we gotta get the fuck out of here.

And the two of them start gathering up all their belongings

and they're like, we're getting the fuck out of here.

But then.

So Mrs. Gray is packing

and Mr. Gray started carrying things downstairs.

And as this is happening, he ran into Helen McDougal.

I knew one of those fuckers was lurking.

And when he ran into Helen McDougal,

he demanded that she explain what the fuck was going on.

Like he was like, you tell me why the fuck

there's a body in that bedroom.

Like you tell me.

And at first she tried to just like dismiss the question.

Yeah, cause she's a little butt head.

But she kept, but he kept pushing.

And he was like, no, you can't,

you literally can't dismiss a body in your bedroom.

Like you need to explain that.

A naked old woman's body in your bedroom.

Like tell me what that's about the fuck.

And so she finally broke down and said,

I suppose you know very well what it is.

Uh, I don't though.

And then she begged Mr. Gray not to say anything.

And then offered him several shillings

in exchange for silence.

And then Helen told Mr. Gray

that Dockardy had died that night

from an overdose of drink.

Yeah, right bitch.

Why is her mouth all bloody?

But she, he did not believe her.

Of course not.

He was like, no.

And then she decided to switch her tactics.

You remember, innocent McDougal over here.

Remember everybody.

I don't remember because I always had her number.

Poor, innocent Helen.

She had nothing to do with this.

Fuck Helen.

She decided to change her tactics

when Mr. Gray wasn't gonna believe the,

she overdosed on drinks.

So we stripped her naked and tied her in a pile of straw.

Yeah.

So she was like, okay.

And she started convincing,

trying to convince him to join in on the scheme.

He's like, yeah, I have a conscience though.

That's the only problem.

Helen's also an actual piece of shit.

All four of these assholes are pieces of shit.

She knew it.

I knew she had,

there was too much going on for her not to know about.

Yeah.

And the fact that she went along with it

and didn't get paid is like wild.

Yeah.

It truly is.

That's how it's even more.

Yeah.

Truly.

Like I'm not saying like, well,

sure they were getting paid so that's why they did it.

But it's like, no, you weren't even in on this.

Yeah, you weren't even like,

what the hell was going on in your head?

You were still cool with it.

Yep.

And so she couldn't convince anything to,

she couldn't convince them to join the scheme.

She wasn't getting a promise of silence from them.

So she followed them into town.

Oh shit.

And they ran into Laird in town.

Oh, I'm so nervous.

Somehow the Greys agreed to join Laird and McDougal

at a nearby public house for like a drink.

And the women continued to try to convince them to stay quiet.

They bought them rounds of drinks.

They used every argument.

They could try to convince them that this was something

that was fine, ethically.

Y'all don't drink a drink that they buy you.

What's good is they were very unpersuasive.

The Greys got a bunch of free drinks out of the deal.

There you go.

And they left the bar that afternoon

and went straight to the police.

Love that.

I love that they're like, you know what?

Yeah, we could use a few briskies.

You can buy me some drinks first.

Yeah.

But when they went to the police,

they were made to wait several hours for someone

to even listen to their story.

Oh good.

Yeah.

That checks.

So when Mr. Greys was finally able to tell his story,

so a police sergeant,

the officer said that Greys was simply a disgruntled tenant

looking to cause problems for his landlords.

Do you want to like maybe go talk to anyone about this though?

So that's what he was like.

Do you want to come back to the house?

Like check and see if the body's still there.

And maybe come see this corpse in the corner of a room?

Do you want to do that?

So they were like, yeah, totally.

So he went with Mr. Greys to the home of Burke and McDougal.

The body was gone.

And Burke confirmed the sergeant's theory

saying that the Greys were former tenants

and that he'd had to turn them out for bad conduct.

Oh please.

So Burke was like, yeah, you're right.

They're just shitty.

Like they're just shitty tenants.

But then the officer did a little search of the home.

And there he found spatters of blood on the bedsheets

and the floor.

And like, and this was all where she had been killed

before being brought to Knox.

Yeah.

And it all matched up with what Greys had told the police.

Right.

It was the same room.

It was the spatters made sense for what had happened.

So when asked, Burke and McDougal gave very inconsistent stories

about who the woman was, when she left.

And this alone was enough for the police to be like,

you two need to come in and we're going to question you for a thing.

Yes.

Because they were like, you can't agree who she was

or when she even left.

And why she's in your house.

Like she's literally in your fucking house.

So Burke and McDougal were taken down

to the police station for questioning.

The next day, officers went back to Burke's home

to do a more thorough search.

And they found more blood stains.

And they also found Mary Docherty's blood-stained clothing.

Meanwhile, additional officers,

they also brought a police surgeon, Dr. Black.

They all went to Dr. Knox's address

where they discovered Docherty's body,

but the body's body being readied for dissection.

Oh my.

Yeah.

So they had the bloody clothing and the body now in their possession.

And so now more officers were sent

to Heron Laird's boarding house

where they informed Margaret Laird

that Captain Stewart wished to see her husband.

So as they had done with the grays,

Laird tried to just dismiss the whole thing.

The whole evening events are being misunderstood here.

She overdosed.

We didn't do anything.

It was just runken revelries.

But she was very unsuccessful just as they were.

And both Heron Laird were taken into custody as well.

And Burke and McDougal now were officially arrested

after being questioned.

Heron Laird are just being brought in for questioning.

So throughout the fall of 1828,

Burke and Heron made tons of reckless

and very risky decisions.

In the beginning, they were doing things pretty undercover.

They got so fucking reckless at the end.

It unraveled.

Like it's really wild to why it's a true downfall for them.

But they were so fucking brazen.

And so weirdly confident that they could get away from this.

It is crazy how confident they were.

That's the thing.

Burke was even trying to explain away

that why Dockarty was in his house.

Why her body was in his house.

And that just goes to show how fucking delusional they were.

Or confident.

It's like, what?

You really thought that was going to make sense?

Or that was really going to work?

Wait until you hear the story he tells.

Oh, god.

Because he told one story.

And now this is the other story he tells.

Okay.

So his first formal explanation for why Dockarty's body

was in his home.

According to Burke, he and McDougal had begun their day

like any other day.

With murder.

Any other day.

And suddenly a man approaches him looking to have some shoes mended.

He's a cobbler after all.

I literally forgot that.

Yeah, Burke had never seen the man.

He didn't remember his name.

He couldn't tell you anything about him.

But he agreed to help him out.

And he took his shoes and began to work.

And while this stranger is, while he's working on the stranger's shoes,

this stranger just drags a trunk into his house while he's working on his shoes.

This can't be real.

And he's, and he's working.

He's, he's just working.

And he's like, I don't know why you have that crazy trunk in here, but that's fine.

And Burke said, it's so weird.

I could hear the man removing the ropes that were used to secure the trunk.

And then I found, I, I, you know, I, I heard this sound of a man like,

burying something under a pile of straw.

I think it was like, that's the sound that I heard.

No, I must go.

And I think that pile of straw was next to the bed.

Yeah, it sounded like that.

I, I've left.

And he said, and then that man left.

Me too.

And then I discovered what that man had left in my house.

And I tracked him down and I demanded that he come back and he removed this body.

And this guy said, sure, I will, but I can't come back until tomorrow morning to do it.

And he said, okay, my guy, I'm going to go and get him.

And the guy, I guess, okay, my guy said, all right, I guess I'll go back and just live with

this naked dead body and a pile of straw in the corner of my bedroom for tonight.

As one does.

And then you come back and you take this out.

And I didn't know him at all, but I just figured he was good on his word.

Yeah, you know, he seemed like a trustworthy guy.

This murderer, he just seemed, you know, like.

This stranger.

With a dead body.

Who literally approached me in town.

I don't remember his name or his face.

What does he look like?

I can tell you a damn thing about him.

He asked me to cobble a fucking shoe.

I said, sure, why not?

He came back to my house with me.

He drags a trunk in my house.

I hear him burying a body.

I find said body.

Find him in town and say, hey, you better come get that body out of my house.

And he says, I'll do it tomorrow morning.

And you say, I believe you.

I believe you, sir.

I think you will come back.

I think you will come back and get this body.

I'm shook.

And he said this to investigators.

Like they were not going to be like, are you fucking shitting me?

Are you shitting my dick, Burke?

Are you really saying this story to me?

A seasoned fucking investigator.

And I'm going to go, wow, that, what bad luck.

Did they even like?

What shitty luck Burke has.

Did they even give him an answer?

Were they even, did they, were they just like, you know what?

We have to go now.

You're going to jail.

Bye.

Oh yeah.

And then well, cause I'm sure it was one of those things where he went through that whole thing.

And they all just stared at him and you could hear the blink, blink, blink, blink.

Cause then he was like, yeah, and you know, it's crazy.

I met that woman earlier in the day.

Cause he, cause he couldn't stop.

This isn't absurd enough.

We have to, we have to add on to it.

He goes, yeah, she was begging for money.

And he said, out of the kindness of my heart, I invited her back to my house for a meal and for some drinks.

And she returned to town after that, after I had fed her, after I had given her out.

Her alcohol.

She left my house and she went back into town and I said, goodbye.

I hope you have a great night.

I hope that I have fed you well.

I hope, I hope I have done, I, I hope I have done what I'm, the teachings have told me to do to feed you, to bring you in.

And I send you back out to town and he goes, I never saw her again.

Until she was back in my house.

I never saw her again.

Until that man left her dead body in my house.

Like what a coincidence.

And he says a day or two later, the stranger sent two men who Burke had never met before.

To retrieve the body now.

And he goes, one of those men who I had never seen before, came to my house and his name was William Hare.

So now he is claiming that this stranger that dragged a trunk into his house that contained a dead woman

who he had met earlier that day, brought to his house to feed and give drink because he was just so kind.

Sent back into fucking town to be murdered by this stranger that dragged her in a trunk in his house and

hid her in a pile of straw in the corner of his bedroom.

He claims that he went back into town, found this man, said, you need to come get this body out of my house.

This man said, I'll come back later.

This man said, I'm sending two of my guys to come get this lady.

And he said, sure, these guys show up at his house and he says, never saw him before.

Just two strangers to me.

But one of them was William Hare.

Like motherfucker, you've been seen around town.

I could ask like Joe Schmoe from down the street, like, hey, you know Burke and Hare and they'd be like,

oh, yeah, those fuckers.

I'm shook.

Like you're well known in town.

Not only are you friends, your wives are friends.

You have your squad of four.

Yeah.

Like what?

Yeah.

And like, it's unbelievable.

It's unhinged behavior.

And this is fucking ridiculous.

It's incredible that he told this story thinking it was going to do anything but make everybody go,

wha, but you know why he, every part of the story makes sense for why he put it in there.

As absurd as it is, he was trying to explain one, why people, because he knew he had been seen

everywhere.

He had been seen with this woman.

He had been seen with, he had been seen with Hare.

He had been seen everywhere.

So he's, he's doing this to say why people had seen him with Mary Docherty, both in town and at his home,

because neighbors had seen her in his home, to why her body and traces of blood were found in his

house.

He's explaining that away.

Of course.

Why the body had been by, seen by Gray at the house, but then when the officers came back

later that day was gone.

He's saying, well, those two men came and took her away.

So that's what I have to tell you.

And it's also to say why Hare had been seen selling the body to Dr. Knox the next day,

because he was one of those strange men who came and got that body.

I have, like I've said it before, I'll say it again, I have to go, like, what?

It's, it's absurd.

It's ridiculous.

And I'm like, wow, you really hit every, you tried to hit every possible thing that could

connect you to this and explain every part of this, but in the stupidest way imaginable.

Seriously.

Like really wild and even more wild and unfortunate for him was that it didn't line up with

fucking McDougals.

A fucking confession about it.

Because they didn't talk about this.

She's like, nah, me and my hubby are bros with them.

Sorry, we murdered.

One of the main discrepancies between his version of events that he just told that wild

yarn that he just spun.

Oh my God.

I love when people call like a crazy story a yarn.

Yes.

The main difference and the main issue between that yarn and the one that McDougals

going to tell is that she was like, oh, um, yeah, we spent the day, um, drinking with William

Hare and his, uh, his lady, Margaret Laird.

Because we're friends.

And they're like, oh, like one of the guys who came to get the body that Burke didn't,

has never met and didn't know who he was.

You guys spend multiple, multiple, multiple months, if not years.

Was it years?

Yeah, it's been years, I mean months at the very least.

It's like, and you didn't ever like, I'm happy that you didn't, but like it's mind

boggling to me that not once did you sit down and say, Hey, like, if we do end up getting caught,

we got to do this.

This is what we'll say.

Yeah.

Hey, no.

Hey, Helen, hey Laird, come on over.

This is our story that we should stick to.

Yeah.

You fucking imbeciles.

Yup.

Like what?

Yup.

What?

Yup.

It's wild.

I have to go.

I love thinking about Burke being like, and then these two men show up and they come to get the body.

And I said, Oh my God, this stranger's in my house, coming to get this body of this woman that I,

out of the kindness of my heart, I fed and I sent into town and then she was dragging a

trunk into my house.

This is wild.

These two strange men.

And these two strange men, one of them is William Hare.

It's wild.

I've never met that man before in my life.

I don't even know who he is.

I don't know him.

I don't know him, investigators.

I do not know him.

And then they're like, cool, thank you.

And they go into the next room and they're like, Hey, Helen, can you tell me what you're

doing today?

And she's like, Oh my God, absolutely.

Totally.

We were drinking all afternoon with William Hare.

With our Lady Margaret Laird.

And it's like, wow.

You know, people never cease to surprise me.

Never.

Never.

Never.

Never.

Never.

After McDougal pretty much gave up the ghost there.

After she shot a fucking megalodon sized hole in that story, like the fuck ripped a hole the

size of the ozone layer in that story.

I think it's healing.

Oh, good for that.

Yeah.

Good for that news.

Yeah.

We've closed it up a little.

We're doing something.

I don't know.

Electric cars.

You know what?

Positivity.

Yeah.

I like that.

Look at the joy candle.

Look at that.

Look at that joy candle.

Anyway, she's standing up straight.

She's cute.

But after that, Burke was like, okay, yeah, I murdered her.

Like he was literally like, he's like, so sorry that I took a creative writing class a few

weeks ago and got confused with that while I was here.

But I did kill her because they just came over and were like, hey, you drank with them today.

We know that you're like, real bro-y with William Hare.

We know that you want to edit that statement you gave.

And that's all it took.

He was like, yeah, I murdered Mary Dockarty and several other people with William Hare.

That would literally, like from the sounds of how close these couples were,

that would be like me saying, like if John walked into a room and the police were like, hey, do you

know that man?

I'd be like, never seen him before in my life.

No, never seen him.

And they're like, but you've referenced him on this podcast multiple times.

And I think that literally might be your sister's husband.

And I'm like, no, I've literally never seen him.

I don't know that.

But I don't know her.

He's a stranger.

I don't know what this is.

It's truly wild.

Hwa!

It's really, you can see now, like they were just dumb, just dumb, angry guys.

That's all.

Dumb, angry guys.

So basically, the authorities in Edinburgh knew that in order to get a conviction,

they just had to get the four of them to turn on each other.

Yeah, which was four of them.

Seemingly easy.

Yeah.

And it might have been because of his younger age or because Dockarty's body had been

discovered in Burke's house.

But Lord Advocate William Ray, William Ray, he determined that hair would be the one most

likely to turn on Burke.

Okay.

Because although like Burke is agreeing that he knows hair, he hasn't thrown him completely

under the bus yet.

Hair also just like gives me more diabolical vibes.

Yeah.

And hair is going to turn on Burke.

He's going to turn on McDougal.

And they were like, he's going to turn on Laird.

I don't think he's got any kind of heralty to these people.

Hair is the one that does the actual suffocating, right?

Yeah.

He may, I think he's the aggressor.

Okay.

For sure.

They're, but they both are.

But hair is just something about him.

Yeah.

Something about your rights.

It makes me a little scarier.

Agreed.

A little more scarier to him.

Agreed.

I don't know why.

I thought it was kind of funny that like Burke essentially like implicated hair already,

but like go off king, I guess, like sure hair is going to turn on Burke.

Sure.

But despite that, Ray's assumptions seem to have been pretty well placed

because he offered hair immunity in exchange for a full confession

and hair happily accepted.

He said, glad that I got my neck out of the halter.

And as for poor Bill Burke, well, he must go hang, I suppose.

Sold his friend right up the river.

Oh my God.

And was like, guess he's got to hang.

He never gave a shit about him.

No, he didn't give a shit about anybody.

I don't give a shit about either of them.

Fuck both of these losers.

From the moment they were arrested and put in a jail cell,

all four of the accused were prevented from seeing or speaking to each other.

They couldn't communicate at all until the trial.

And this makes it that it was probably a huge surprise to Burke

that hair had literally turned completely against him

because he had no idea.

He went into trial being like, and then it's like,

all of a sudden hair is like, I'm the star witness.

It's like, what? That must have been like, excuse me.

Well, he probably especially didn't expect that

because he was the one that really did more of the actual suffocating.

So like, are you fucking kidding me?

So as Lisa Rosner pointed out,

when the warrants for arrest and incarceration were handed down,

Burke and McDougal probably had some idea that the Lord Advocate

was being given information by either Laird or Hare.

The Lord Advocate?

I know, isn't that like a wild, like, okay, Scott dissent?

Right, it's just a side on the Lord Advocate.

Lord Advocate.

Like, so he probably had an idea that information was being given by Hare and Laird.

Like the first warrant for the murder of Mary Dockardy was sworn out against all four.

And so was the second one, which was against,

was for the murder of James Wilson.

And only after Hare's detailed confession,

the warrant for Wilson's murder was amended

and was only against Burke and McDougal.

So Hare had no, no, no against it.

The same happened for the warrant for the murder of Mary Patterson,

which only named Burke and McDougal as the perpetrators in that one too.

Oh.

So now Burke and McDougal are being.

Wow, I did not see that coming.

I didn't either.

Damn.

Now, like we said throughout this whole thing,

it's very unclear the exact extent that Helen McDougal played in these murders.

She obviously participated in some way,

be it an outside side thing, you know, like,

she definitely had knowledge of what was happening here.

Like definitely had it.

But throughout the murder spree and confessions,

William Burke went to great lengths to completely distance Helen from any of the schemes

and to protect her from any prosecution.

Mm-hmm.

And for that reason, Burke probably felt even doubly betrayed

when he learned that Hare hadn't just sold him out,

but it also soon sold McDougal out.

Right.

Because throughout the entire thing, he had tried to protect her.

And it's like now he made sure to, like, and that's the thing,

you know, Hare was just so fucking happy

to be able to put McDougal in that whole thing.

I mean, he literally wanted to kill her.

So.

Yeah.

Now, over the centuries after this,

Helen McDougal's name has kind of disappeared

from the retelling of this story.

Like she's in there, but no one points to her as like,

what the fuck were you doing?

Yeah, exactly.

I do.

But at the time of Hare's confession, which they basically were,

they were really going off of Hare's confession at this point,

he identified her as equally responsible for the crimes.

And so Burke and McDougal were the only two prosecuted for the murders.

Are you kidding me?

Burke and McDougal were indicted December 8th, 1828,

for the murders of Mary Docherty, James Wilson, and Mary Patterson.

Their trial began December 24th, and it went a full 24 hours.

It was presided over.

Went into Christmas.

It went into Christmas.

It was presided over by a panel of four justices.

It began at 9 a.m.

And from the moment the doors were opened, the courtroom was packed.

Yeah, because by then you could just like,

fucking find your way into the courtroom.

And they just wanted to see these ghouls.

They had read a ton about them in the paper,

because there was tons of media surrounding this case.

And after they read the indictments,

both of the accused pleaded not guilty.

Before the trial could begin, however, Burke's attorney or argued

it was inappropriate for his client to be tried for three unconnected murders.

And after a long discussion, the justices agreed with Burke's attorney.

Interesting.

And ruled in favor of trying one case at a time.

Okay.

So they didn't want to try the three unconnected murders in one trial.

So after they announced the decision,

Lord Advocate William Ray was given the opportunity to choose

which charge he wanted to begin with.

And he chose the murder of Dockardy,

because he figured it was the strongest case.

Right.

So the trial went on with several witnesses

saying they had seen Dockardy with Burke throughout the day.

And also because Burke had claimed the woman was a heavy drinker,

at least one witness refuted that claim,

telling the jury she, quote, never saw her worse or for liquor.

And after also the prosecution laid out the evidence of the murder,

including the body having been discovered by the Greys and Burke's house,

the blood stains on the clothing,

the blood stains on the bedding, on the floor,

the examination of the body showing very clear evidence of strangulation.

And that she did not die of an overdose.

Yep. The strength of the physical evidence was definitely bolstered

by the Crown's key witness,

Herr William Herr.

He testified that it was Burke who plotted with McDougal to kill Dockardy for money.

And he said, quote, he had an old wife in the house

and that it was, it was a shot for the doctors.

And he went, so Herr went a step further telling the jury

that Dockardy had left the house several times,

but had been enticed to come back inside each time by none other than Helen McDougal.

So throughout the trial, Lord Advocate William Ray

and his assistant prosecutors were very, very deliberate

and very measured in their questioning of hair on the stands.

Okay.

They were very careful to avoid any kind of question

that might incriminate him in any of the crimes.

Well, yeah, I mean, that makes sense.

He did, however, admit on the stand that he had sold the body to Knox.

Okay.

But his participation in the murder of Dockardy was otherwise very minimized.

Otherwise, his role in the actual murders completely ignored.

There were no witnesses called by the defense.

They just completely ignored it.

And after the evidence was given and closing statements were made,

the jury deliberated, it was a little after 8 a.m. on December 25th.

On Christmas.

Oh my God, I'm surprised by that.

Took about an hour and they returned a guilty verdict

for Burke's participation in the murder of Mary Dockardy

and he was sentenced to hang.

Merry Christmas, motherfucker.

The charge against Helen McDougal was found to be unfounded.

Oh.

So that's why you don't hear her name and her guilty ass in this story.

What's even worse is it's 100% a certainty that Margaret Laird

was involved in the whole scheme.

Yeah, she's paid.

But she got no consequences.

And what about hair?

Yep.

So it's so wild to me.

While Burke did his best to shield Helen of consequences

for the crimes that they had committed,

it was really the defense attorney, Henry Cockburn,

who saved her from having to hang.

I mean, yeah.

Throughout the trial, he painted a picture of McDougal

as a dutiful wife who lived with seeing many things

which are better imagined than told.

Basically saying she saw some shit.

She knew what he would do to her, so she kept her mouth shut

and she did what she was told to do.

And it was true that she hadn't informed the police of Burke's crimes,

but it was only because she felt obliged to make false statements

in order to protect Burke and avoid basically becoming destitute.

Yeah.

And in this time especially, that is an argument.

She didn't want to be thrown out on the streets

because that was almost certain death eventually.

Right.

And so they were basically being like she feared for her own life,

which doesn't give her, like that doesn't spare her

from being a criminal,

but it also is like a way to defend her in a court of law.

Exactly.

Like it makes it like-

I understand the argument.

Exactly.

It also helped her case immensely

that there was no evidence and no testimony

that could even slightly connect her to the murders.

Right.

Which she was found not guilty in the end.

Mm-hmm. Now on the morning of January 25th, 1828,

a crowd of nearly 25,000 people gathered in Lawn Market,

which is a town square off High Street,

and they watched William Burke hang in the gallows.

Damn.

So people were like abandoning their Christmas meals,

just to be like, let's go watch this man.

Well, this was January 25th.

Oh, this was January, my bad.

Yeah, sorry.

Maybe I did say December by accident.

No, you probably said January.

So months later.

No, no.

You said it right.

You were right.

A month later.

Okay, okay.

But what's kind of ironic is Burke's body

was donated to the medical college the following day.

Hell, yeah.

It was dissected by Professor Alexander Monroe,

the doctor that they were looking for initially

when they accidentally knocked on Dr. Knox's door.

Yo.

Isn't that wild?

And he was dissected in front of an audience

of nearly 20,000 people.

Wow.

Yep.

And when he finished the dissection, Dr. Monroe,

apparently he did this thing,

and it's called an anatomist ritual.

Okay.

It was called.

Love that.

Where he dipped his quill into the blood,

still contained in Burke's head,

and wrote the following declaration in blood.

This is written with the blood of William Burke

who was hanged at Edinburgh on 28th,

oh, it was on the 28th.

Excuse me, I got it wrong.

That's okay.

The 28th of January, 1829,

for the murder of Mrs. Campbell or Docherty.

The blood was taken from his head

on the 1st of February, 1829.

Isn't that spooky as fuck?

They were on some wild shit back then.

They really were.

That's on like some opium thought process.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Like, you know what we should do?

We should make a declaration.

Dip a quill into his head.

From the blood of his skull.

Yeah.

Like, and y'all were really God-figuring?

I don't know about that.

I mean, if you're worried about whether Helen McDougal

just went on to live her life,

I can help you not worry about that.

I was.

That was my next question after I got past the fact

that they just wrote a quick little post-it with his fucking blood.

She was released from custody following the trial

and she tried to go home.

How'd that work out?

She was met by a large group who'd assembled outside of her house

and made it pretty clear that she better get the fuck out of Edinburgh

or they were going to make sure that she didn't get out of there alive.

It's pretty assumed that she fled the city later,

like, very quickly after that,

but no one knows what happened to her after that.

She left Edinburgh.

Hit me up with the deets on hair.

People do think she was killed by an angry mob

or that she changed her name completely

and lived in, like, isolated somewhere.

Wow.

I will say the family of Jamie Wilson.

Yeah.

The young man who everyone literally knew and loved.

They protested against hair's freedom.

Good.

And aggressively petitioned the government

to reconsider the immunity he was given

in exchange for his testimony.

I bet.

The Wilson's petition was given very serious consideration,

but the Crown ultimately decided

that they were going to keep the immunity for his testimony

and hair was very unfortunately released from custody on February 5th.

Damn.

But unfortunately for hair, the public knew what he fucking did

and his very much equal participation in the murders,

they knew about that too.

It took less than a day for a mob to assemble outside the boarding house

intending to kill him themselves.

For his own protection, he was taken into police custody

where he was dressed and disguised

and escorted out of the city via the road to Carlisle.

Although he was never seen or heard from again,

it's believed he either went to England or went back to Ireland.

It was never seen or heard from again.

You know that motherfucker murdered again.

100%.

Because he got, he was the one that.

He got away with it.

In my opinion was way more diabolical.

I think they were both fucked up and diabolical.

But something about hair, there was more to that.

Something about him.

Yeah, he got away with it.

Holy shit.

Yeah.

That's crazy.

They should look into some fucking

unsolved murders in England or wherever he went.

I actually want to look back and see

if there's any connections later.

There's got to be.

And I'll let you know if we find anything.

I don't think he just like was like, well, all done.

See you later.

I'll just live a very quiet life after this.

And what about his wife?

No, he was probably bolstered.

So she was released from custody in mid-January

and she left Edinburgh for Glasgow.

And while she was in Glasgow,

she was discovered by an angry mob

and was, had to be rescued by the authorities

who put her and her baby.

She had a baby at this point on a boat.

Oh, her hair is hairs or not.

And sent her to Ireland.

Shit.

Although, although we don't talk about,

like when you read about this story,

you don't hear a lot about what happened to Dr. Knox

or his wrongdoing and all that.

Right.

Um, he definitely claimed ignorance for sure,

but he was confronted by authorities

and they were like, you,

you definitely knew something was amiss here.

You might not have known the details,

but it's pretty hard to believe that he had no idea

that this, that they were possibly murdering people

to supply him with bodies.

Cause that last body had very clear evidence.

Dockardy had clear evidence of being strangled

and he turned his eyes the other way.

He also pretended like he didn't know that it was Jamie.

But what's weird is Burke, when he confessed,

went out of his way to clear Knox of any wrongdoing as well.

He swore that Knox quote, never encouraged,

never taught or encouraged him to murder any person.

Yeah, I'm sure he didn't.

I think he just turned a blind eye.

And it's like, yeah, no one's saying, exactly.

Like no one's saying that he told you to go murder people,

but like he knew you were.

He didn't tell you to stop murdering people.

Exactly.

And it's like, luckily, because he should definitely not be

let off scot-free here.

No.

The public didn't forget his participation

in everything either.

Good.

And after public outrage,

he willingly resigned from his position.

My bitch.

And Knox left Edinburgh several years later

and resettled in London where he died in 1882.

Peace out, motherfucker.

And that is the story of Burke and Hare.

Girl, that's a wild tale.

And you did like a really great job telling me that.

Thank you.

You're welcome.

Thank you so much.

I was like.

And thanks to Dave.

Thanks to Dave for like, dive in deep in that one.

I love Dave.

We love Dave.

Dave.

He's notorious.

It's, and you know what?

We got to, we're working on another one

that connects to this case.

Oh my God.

And I think Dave described it as like a hearty boys,

like a hearty boys book,

but if there was serial killers and coffins.

Yeah, that's exactly what he said actually.

I was present for that combo.

So it's going to be great.

I'm intrigued.

This story just is like fascinating to me mainly

because of the ending.

One, how reckless and risky they get and brazen.

And how they just fuck everything up from within.

Yeah.

Two, how Hare, William Hare just gets away with it.

I don't know what it is about him, but I'm like,

you're scared, like Burke is scary,

but like a Hare, I'm like, something about you.

And then the fact that he just gets away with it.

Well, he like asserted dominance

by like killing his cousin.

He did.

And was like, I also want to kill your wife.

He was just, I don't know.

And he made sure that she had to go,

she had to get named in those indictments.

Like, yeah.

That's some like power shit.

And it's like scary.

Like something happened between him and McDougal.

I know, right?

I think he made an advance that like she was like

that she rubbed off from me.

And he was not about to deal with that.

I mean, like, I just like really like made a leap there,

but I don't know.

I don't know.

I think, well, I think there's a Buffy episode recently

where it's like, don't jump to conclusions.

And it's like, I don't, I just took,

I think she says like, I just walked around the corner

and their conclusions were.

Yeah, exactly.

I think this is the same situation.

It's like, I don't think that's a leap.

You just walked around a corner and their conclusions were.

And with that being said, we were talking the other day,

we're always like, oh my gosh,

we should do like a Chiller episode for a palette cleanser,

which like we're still going to do.

But if we ever do like an intense case

and you need a palette cleanser,

or if you don't and you just want to listen to another show,

go listen to the rewatch your Buffy The Vampire Slayer.

It's so much fun.

We're rewatching Buffy.

Elena has seen it a million gazillion, trillion times,

but I never have.

And in the last episode,

they used a clip from Taken of Liam Neeson saying,

I will find you and I will kill you.

And you don't know what that's in reference to.

And if that's not the thing that's in it now.

And you should go listen to Find Out.

I don't know about you.

They put fun clips in there and fun little sound things.

They put the,

do-do-do-do-do.

It's so fun guys.

Like that podcast gives us the most joy in the entire world.

It's just fun, silly nostalgia.

Yeah, exactly.

And if you don't know, now you know.

Yeah, go listen to it.

So with that being said,

we hope you keep listening and we hope you keep it weird.

But that's weird as hair.

Definitely not so weird as Burke and hair ever

or McDougal or Larry,

but never ever, ever keep it as weird as hair.

Cause I don't even know how weird that motherfucker kept it,

but he kept it too weird.

I can tell you that much.

Yeah, he definitely kept it too weird.

So like, bye.

Bye.

Hey, Prime members,

you can listen to Morvid early and ad free on Amazon Music.

Download the Amazon Music app today,

or you can listen ad free with Wondery Plus and Apple podcasts.

Before you go,

tell us about yourself by completing a short survey at Wondery.com

slash survey.

Machine-generated transcript that may contain inaccuracies.