Morbid: Episode 442: The Burger Chef Murders Part 2

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Hey weirdos, it's me, it's Elena.

What's going on?

How's your day?

I hope it's awesome.

That's all I wanted to say.

No, I'm just kidding.

This is a message because I think a couple of episodes ago we talked about how we are

going back to the OG way of doing things.

We're doing two episodes a week to big old honking delicious juicy episodes with one

listener tale a month just as a little cherry, little glitter on top of a crazy month.

And we're going to keep doing that.

But I think we were also debating what days would be best for this new two episode a week

cadence because we figured from Wednesday to Monday is a long wait for us and for you

too much.

We'd all be sad.

We don't want that.

So we finally came up with a good cadence.

We're going to drop episodes on Monday and Thursday from here on out.

So Mondays, Thursdays, that's when they'll come out on Wondery Plus, then a week later

you will get them Monday and Thursday for everybody else.

So that's what we're going to do.

You deserve consistency.

We want to give it to you.

I know we didn't do that in the first like three years.

We were like, willy-nilly, whatever you get episodes, here it is.

But you know, we're in that consistency train and we want to stay on that.

And yeah, I think this is going to work for everybody.

It just feels better.

We don't want that big chunk of time between episodes.

You don't either.

So yeah, that's what we're going to do Mondays, Thursdays, new episodes.

We're excited about it.

It lets us really put more time and effort into these episodes, which is what they deserve

and what you deserve.

And we fucking love you.

And I can't wait to see you every Monday and Thursday.

I know I won't see you.

I realize that I won't even hear you, but it feels like I will and you will hear me.

So we're all in this together.

We're best friends.

Thanks guys.

Mondays, Thursdays, whoop, whoop.

Hey weirdos, I'm Elena.

I'm Ash.

This is morbid and we're just coming off of a little celebratory moment.

We got to see Obituary last night, live in Somerville.

In Somerville, kids.

And we got to meet some of our fucking podcast babies.

It was beautiful.

It was elegant.

You probably saw a picture.

It looks like the Last Supper, but awesome.

It does look like the Last Supper, but better, but awesome because there is no Brutus.

Ash's microphone is literally attempting to assault her.

It's falling off of the table.

Mikey to the rescue.

Please help.

He's going to fix it.

All right.

We're back in Better Than Ever and Elena's got a correction.

It's also, it's Judas.

I know it's Judas Brutus as the Caesar one.

You know, Judas Brutus, they're all betraying people.

I like Caesar dressing.

Am I right?

Yeah.

That's my hot take.

That's my hot take today, love.

I also love Caesar dressing as long as it's not too fishy.

Yeah.

That's fucking foul.

How many times did you get one that's like, ooh, that's a lot of anchovy?

Oh my gosh.

I was going to say, do you know why I wanted to tell you something?

It's really hard to tell you something that you don't already know.

That you don't already know?

Okay.

It's a lot of souls coming out today.

We are both on like three hours of sleep.

Yeah.

Because we, we had to party hardy with our fucking friends.

Yeah.

It was wild.

Like I got to be an adult and go out.

And by party hardy, I mean Elena ordered a Shirley Temple.

Just like a straight up Shirley Temple.

I know.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And it was great.

I'm happy about that.

You know what Madison taught me last night?

What?

Madison from Obituary, which you should go see and buy tickets to, plug, plug.

They are amazing.

She taught me to mix, and I think it's a Harry Styles song, to mix diet coke and red wine

and Cabernet specifically, sounds like absolutely disgusting and foul.

And I was like, I trust you.

I took a sip, life changing.

It sounds fucking crazy.

It's so good.

I just hate diet anything, but it doesn't end up tasting diet because the, I mean, I

like diet coke.

I was going to say, I literally hate the taste of diet coke.

Well, you could do it with regular coke too.

It almost has like a sangria vibe.

Oh, that's interesting.

Yeah.

You should try it.

You should try it.

You should try.

Stop copying me.

Oh yeah.

I got yelled at accidentally because I don't look at any, like I usually don't see any

comments because I'm just like, I don't go on the internet anymore, but we go on the internet

to post what we want to post.

Exactly.

And then I'm out.

We get that bread.

I'm out.

And I happened to be on Instagram and I got one of those like banner notifications and

it was somebody on a morbid post being like, Hey, has anyone else noticed how fucking annoying

Elena is that she just repeats all the funny things that Ash says in a like different voice?

And I was like, they said, has anyone else noticed?

Yeah.

Has anyone else noticed how annoying Elena is?

And I was like, why are you here?

I was like, what did that get you?

Sometimes I wonder if people think that's kind of like, endear me to them.

And I'm like, oh my God, like, I know she sucks.

You're so nice for saying that.

It's like, no, now Ash fucking hates you too.

Yeah, I don't like you.

Don't be mean to my sister.

That doesn't work.

You fucking putts.

Like, I got like, whatever it's like, pit us against each other.

I'm like, do you think Ash is going to like you for that?

Like, Ash is like, we ride at dawn for each other.

We could like punch each other in the face one day.

Well, like we never have.

We never have.

But we could.

And then Elena could call me and be like, hey, I need you.

And I'd be like, what time?

Yeah, let's go.

Like I'm here actually.

So who's how we taken?

Who's how we taken?

I feel like I can't say that because I've never seen that movie.

That's a great movie.

But is that the town?

But yeah, yeah, it is the town.

Hey, look at me.

Yeah.

So I just, you know, I just was like, wow, okay, you need to sign out of the morbid account

on your phone.

I do need to.

Because then you don't get those banner notifications.

Because that was the problem.

You don't go looking because of course not.

Because whenever I do, I accidentally, that's the only thing you'll see is now you'll miss

all the nice things that people say, which is sad and you only will see that one nasty

one because they always make sure to be like, you know, has anyone noticed that Elena is

annoying and I'm like, okay.

So sign out of that.

But then you might need to also because I need to do this.

You might need to unfollow morbid, which is so sad.

I'm so sad.

I follow morbid because like, it's my podcast.

Say it.

Yes.

My podcast.

Oh my God.

You're so annoying.

You're so annoying.

But so I'll like scroll by and it gives you like that like little like two or three comments.

I always see the meanest thing.

Always.

Why can't Ash speak?

Yeah.

And I'm like, because brain damage.

Okay.

I don't know.

Those are always the ones that show and I'm like, wow, Instagram.

Like that's fake as fuck.

Why do you just show me the mean one I saw one recently that was like, wow, has a podcast

but she can't fucking talk.

All right.

Well, there's two of us for when I can't talk and I just got to ask again.

I know we've all asked this before.

What's wrong with you?

Like, who does that?

Like, who just goes like, what do you get out of that?

Like that girl who was like, has anyone noticed that Elena is annoying?

I'm like, even if you gathered an army of people that were like, we are the riders of

Elena being annoying and you started a group and you had meetings and like you had like

a special handshake that you did.

Like, do you feel good?

Like what else?

What do you get out of it?

Also, why are you doing a census on my post?

That's the thing.

And it's like on my post.

That's like going in the mail.

I don't need it on my post.

But I was and also that that person followed me and I was like, all right, well, hate

following is a thing that people love to do.

It's a hate following.

It's like, you love me.

I was literally like, sounds like someone protests too much.

Though, though, I don't think you find me annoying.

I think you like me.

I know.

It's like, it's one of those things where you're like, oh my God, you shouldn't pay

it any mind.

Like, of course.

But sometimes you just kind of vent it out.

Which that's the thing.

It's like, normally, like we've really gotten to a point years through this that we don't

pay it any mind.

The constructive stuff, sure.

But like, just people being dicks like that, like that's not constructive at all.

You can fuck yourself.

No, that's just me.

But like, that kind of shit is like, you're just, you're being an asshole for the sake

of being an asshole and I don't know what you got out of it, but I sure hope it gave

you some kind of jolly because it sounds like you need it.

Well, also, you're just like creating a negative space for yourself and like, I speak from

experience if you put things out into the world that are negative, even if you're not

talking shit.

Like, even if you're just talking negatively, it comes back to you.

It's true.

And then you're just attracting negative negative.

Karma is the thing, man.

Attract a bandit.

That's why we're, and you know, it took like a while to get here, but that's why we're

in a place where we're just like, you know what, whatever, and we're also in a place

of just like, we're going to keep trying to like build people up that deserve to be built

up.

Like, that's why we shout out different creators for you guys to go check out.

And you're also the queen of that.

I don't even do that as much as you.

You're so philanthropic.

No, it's just fun and it's really fun to see when like, especially on TikTok, I've

been seeing it lately and it's like really making me happy.

You guys like fucking kill it because like morbid listeners will go follow these people

that we mentioned and then they'll be like, oh, I got, I came here for morbid and it's

so fun to see because then it's like they are, and they're always like, oh, I'm so excited

to have found this.

This is so fun.

And it's like, I love like blowing those people up.

You know what?

That's called community.

That's called community.

It's called my brothers in Christ.

Hell yeah.

I love it.

That's what we are.

That's called my brothers in brutalism.

You guys are the real ones.

I think that we take like the, isn't Alayna annoying ones as like our listeners.

That's not who we listen to.

Don't worry about it.

Gosh, can't talk.

You guys are, yeah, exactly.

You guys are the real ones.

We know who you are.

We know who this community is.

We met a lot of you last night.

It was so cool.

It was wonderful.

That will never be cool.

That will never be magical.

That will never not be cool.

Yeah.

So we know who you are.

So don't worry.

They don't represent you.

But anyways, I just wanted to put it out there that like, you know, if you're doing

that kind of shit on the internet, like you might, you, you should probably reevaluate

where you sit in life because that's a really pathetic thing to do.

One more thing.

What?

I just have to tell you, if you're doing that, I'm literally just picturing you sitting

in a crusty basement picking your toe cheese.

That's actually very true.

That's exactly because I'm like, you're not happy and I know you have a fungal infection

and I'm sorry about it, but think about all the times in your life that you have talked

shit like that or been somebody like that when like you're younger and like all that.

It was always in the worst fucking times of your life.

It was never when you were happy.

It was never when you were a fulfilled person.

And that's why I'm just like, wow, that's sad.

I can honestly say, I have never written a nasty comment.

Somebody else's Instagram.

It's so strange.

What the fuck is wrong with you?

It's so strange.

Have I sub-tweeted many, many, many people in my day?

Perhaps a fucking Lutely, but I'm not going on podcasts being like, what time I even sub-tweeted

Drew?

When we were in our breakup stage and he texted me and he was like, did you just fucking sub-tweet

me?

And I was like, I don't know what the fuck you're talking about.

Like, I don't even know what a sub-tweet is, Drew.

Who are you?

Okay.

He's like, we dated for a year and a half.

I know you're the sub-tweet queen of the century.

You're like, I don't know him.

Like, who are you?

And then I'm like, wait, I love you married me.

Oh, love.

I know.

What a wild dread.

So was a wild dread.

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All right, so we're in part two of a case.

We're in part two of the Burger Chef murders.

This is a really sad one.

Yeah, it is.

It's a bummer.

It's technically still unsolved, which is always a hard pill to swallow.

I love it though when you say technically.

Because then I get a little flutter.

Yeah, because it's like we got a pretty viable suspect.

I never, I don't think I ever knew that.

Yeah, there's a pretty viable one.

Sorry, did they come about recently or have they been?

No, it's been out there and we'll talk about them, but it's one of those things where you

just can't pin it.

It's like probably because they wash down the crime scene.

Yeah, that might have something to do with it.

There was that whole nonsense.

And like didn't investigate for like a minute.

Yeah, for a solid minute, a brief period of time.

But by, so at the end of part one, I was talking about how they really had exhausted the few

leads that they got and the state police had actually publicly stated, in this case, we've

got a hope that the killer killers may have told someone who has a conscience who will

come forward.

So they're not even hoping now that the killer has a conscience.

They're hoping that the person that the killer tells this to, they have a conscience and

they come forward.

Also, some killers are like pretty good at secrets.

So that's, you should probably, that tends to be like one of their, their main traits.

I feel like they should explore other avenues of investigative work.

You never want to hear investigators go, well, the thing we're banking on is that this guy

just straight up confesses to someone.

You might be waiting a while.

And not only that confesses to someone that has a conscience.

It's like, that's a lot.

I don't want to rest all my hopes and dreams on that.

I'd rather rest it on like you investigating the case, same, you know, but either way,

that sucks.

So I had mentioned it before, but in 1978, Speedway police were dealing with a lot more

shit than they normally did.

This super small Midwestern town was really being pushed like to the limit of its resources.

We mentioned in part one that there was these random horrific bombings that were seeming

and were ended up being connected to the murder of a woman.

And that woman was 69 year old housewife Julius Skyfers.

She was shot to death under very mysterious circumstances.

The bombings that followed were just more stress and mystery added onto this whole thing.

They happened in September 1st, three bombings happened in Speedway.

That Saturday, there were two more and then another one the next day and the last one

happened the following day at Speedway High School.

So it was just constant.

A bombing is like one of my biggest fears because you just don't know.

They were being put in like trash cans and stuff and at the high school, I think they

were found in like a gym bag, like somebody picked up a gym bag and it exploded.

And like people were wounded by shrapnel, like it was tough.

And you said they went unsolved too, right?

The bombings.

They did for a while.

So these crimes were taking up all the resources and time that this really small town PD had

to offer.

They were not able to muster up a lot more for anything else.

And as November turned to December, state and local police were really just grasping

at anything that could take the burger chef case forward.

They just had nothing.

But they were not entirely without leads because Speedway police were continuing to receive

leads from the public, from telephone calls, letters.

And in the end, they actually produced at least 36 leads that they could deem at least

slightly credible, which isn't a whole lot.

But really the best leads that they had were the tip from that young couple who had been

approached by those two men in the parking lot of the burger chef.

Because they were packing.

And this was because they went neck and this was like an hour or so before the robbery

and kidnapping occurred.

So this was a pretty good witness statement to have.

The police department didn't have a sketch artist on chef, on chef, on staff.

I didn't even catch that.

I'm tired.

I need more caffeine.

But they also didn't have the funds or resources available to get a professional one.

So detectives found and hired Robin England, who was an art student at Ball State University.

Also was the niece of one of the investigators on the case.

And they were willing to create sculpture bus from the descriptions that were provided

by the witnesses.

And those witnesses later said that the bus were, quote, between 95 and 100% accurate.

Wow.

Bus are always so interesting to me.

These bus are very interesting looking bus.

Oh.

I will say.

I saw that little, that little glimmer in your eye.

They're very interesting looking.

And a composite drawing was made from the bus and it was circulated throughout the press.

Okay.

And again, we have the witnesses saying that these are very accurate.

So that means that the composite images are pretty accurate, 95 to 100%.

That's huge.

Right.

And they were, at one point, we're going to see that they were able to find a couple

of guys that literally are like dead ringers for these guys.

And somehow they weren't able to place them in speedway at the time of the murders.

And it like shocked me.

Are they an assassin?

No.

So photographs of these bus were circulated around the media and a statement from state

police, Sergeant Chuck Hibbert was released saying, we are not calling these two men suspects.

We just want to talk to them.

Which is like, we just want to talk to you literally.

I was just going to say.

Yeah.

We just want to talk, man.

We just want to talk, man.

Hands up.

Bro to bro.

Yeah.

It's off the record.

It's fine.

So, but beside these witness statements and witness accounts, this was really the biggest

evidence they had was these composite images.

So detectives hope that publishing them was maybe going to jog someone's memory around

that time.

Someone from the public that was around the burger chef had maybe caught glimpse of these

guys and seeing the composite image was going to make them go, oh, shit, yeah, I did see

them.

And they were hoping this person would come forward, help with an ID.

However, the images definitely prompted people to call in about 600 calls to police.

Wow.

None of them produced a concrete lead.

Not one.

Now, do you think that was because the tips sucked or do you think that was because the

police department sucked?

I don't know.

That's the thing.

Combination.

Honestly, that's kind of the theme of this case.

Everyone sucks.

It's like, could it have been solved if they just did their jobs better?

Yes.

And it's like, yeah, I think so.

I think I said it last time or it might have been after we finished recording.

If they hadn't cleaned up that crime scene, they could have dusted for prints and obviously

maybe couldn't have done a lot with them back then, but now.

Yeah.

Boom.

Boom, we'd have them.

And it's like, at this point, we have no idea what evidence was left at that scene.

Nothing.

There could have been DNA at that scene.

There could have been anything at that scene.

There could have been, hell, they could have taken a Polaroid photograph of themselves

at that scene and left it on the floor or the counter and it was thrown away.

We literally don't know.

There could have been boot prints, a mural painted on the wall by one of them.

We're going in different directions here.

Like it could have just, I'm just an artist.

You're like, there could have been a razor scooter belonging to one of the murderers

that had DNA on it and they parked it away.

But you know what?

There could have been.

I'm saying.

We don't know because they just cleaned it all up and threw it away.

It could have hit one of those detectives in the ankle.

Yeah.

And they didn't even fucking know it.

Exactly.

We don't know.

That is the most frustrating thing.

It's not that they like, oh, there was blood and they cleaned it up.

It's like, we don't fucking know.

We have no idea what evidence was at that scene that could have absolutely nailed these

fuckers and it makes me crazy.

Well, and if one of them had a beard too, you're like, I know that shit was shed.

I know your shit was not taken care of.

It was shed.

I know it.

So as 1978 came to an end, the murders were kind of starting to fade out of the papers.

That's fuck.

People are starting to move on.

Nothing's happening in the case.

They're on the brutal killing of four youths in town.

And when I say people, I mean everyone but these poor victims' families who are still

sitting there waiting for fucking justice.

And police are just hitting wall after wall after wall.

The reward money that the Burger Chef Corporation put out there, unclaimed, just sitting there.

And apparently even the typically very chatty jailhouse informants could not help push anything

forward.

And they were actually, there's a quote in the Indianapolis Star that said, the Marion

County Jail, whose prisoners are usually a goldmine of information about crimes in central

Indiana, had not yielded a single good tip about the murder.

Wow.

Like that's pretty wild.

Now, with the public kind of fading away from this case, the headlines are fading away.

Investigators are now desperate to keep it in the papers, keep the public engaged.

Keep the pressure on these villains.

Yeah.

They know they have to make up for what they've done, like what they haven't done for their

negligence.

So the Indianapolis Star actually set up this new system, and with the system, readers

could submit tips or other information anonymously, which always helps, I feel like.

It always gets people to talk more.

And what they said was, some of you may not realize you hold valuable information that

just may aid police in solving the crime.

And it said that, it said, do not sign the letter, but put a five-digit number at both

the top and the bottom page.

Then make a jagged tear across the bottom of the sheet just above the number.

Okay.

I was like, that seems like a lot.

That's very intricate.

Can I just write in?

A lot of people are going to be intimidated by that.

A lot of people are going to fuck that process up.

Yeah.

I'm going to be honest.

If I, I'd be like, oh, okay.

And then I'd read, like put a five-digit thing, and I'd be like, oh, okay.

And then it'd start.

And then it would be like, also make this jagged.

And I'd be like, I'm out.

Like that's the third thing you asked me to do, I'm out.

You know what that reminds me of?

And I don't know if it will make sense to anyone else.

It reminds me of the instructions for a Scantron test.

Oh, that's absolutely going to make sense to everyone listening.

I feel like.

Like that.

Like, do you get it?

Absolutely.

Yeah.

Like your teacher would be like, okay, fill in this bubble with this specific pencil.

Do not fill in the bubbles that are colored like this.

And you were like, I have so much anxiety right now.

Write your name up here, write your name on the bottom, write your class number here.

Write your class number here.

Don't you dare write your class number here.

Write my name over here and you're like, can I just take the test?

Like, but what's my name?

What's my name though?

I don't understand.

So the stars reward desk immediately started receiving letters off of this because people

were apparently not intimidated by it.

We're all like, we would suck at this, but in 78 they were like, we're fine with it.

I mean, yeah, you know, they had to do a lot of shit.

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So some weren't like super detailed.

Like one came from Johnson County from a man who said that he saw a suspicious man who

bore a striking resemblance to the clean shaven man.

And this man was standing alone on Stones Crossing Road on November 18th.

That's it.

All right.

I saw this guy that looked like that guy without a beard standing on a street on that day over

there.

Yes.

I saw him.

I saw him on that night and he was standing and he didn't have a beard.

That man was not sitting.

He was standing and I imagine that these robbers imagine they were standing.

So I'm like, did he look suspicious?

Case closed, my friends.

Was he just waiting for a while?

Thanks for that, I guess.

Like we'll keep that in mind that that road contained a man that was standing.

Contained.

So then there was other ones that were a little more detailed.

One came from a Greenwood gas station attendant.

He wrote in saying that he actually recognized those bus as two men who'd short changed

him in the early morning hours of November 18th.

I have something to say.

If a gas station attendant tells you something, listen, listen, like in a criminal investigation,

I feel like they know.

Just hit a criminal.

Not like on a Tuesday.

Or an urban legend, the movie, when that poor man was just trying to scream, someone's

in the back seat.

That man.

And she was being a dick.

She was being such a bitch.

That's one of those situations where you're like, you had the day you deserved girls.

I don't know what to tell you.

That man is so sweet.

So sweet.

And he was just trying to tell you something and he's a gas station attendant.

Yeah, he knows.

He knows.

They have seen some shit.

They're harbingers.

They tell you when evil is afoot and you need to listen to them.

Think about our friend at the gas station.

He knows what the fuck he's up.

Hell yeah.

He always knows what's up.

And he has all the fucking drama.

Hell yeah, he does.

So listen to your local gas station attendant if they're informing you about a crime.

And this guy is saying that on November 18th in the early morning hours, he was short

changed by two men who looked like those bus.

And of course you're going to remember that.

Yes.

And he said, it was strange because these men bought $12 worth of gas for their black

Chevrolet.

So he was able to provide that and he said, but they attempted to pay with a $5 bill in

two singles.

What?

So they attempted to pay $7 for $12 worth of gas.

I think he thought like that they would, they probably thought that he would just take the

five thinking it was a 10 they could leave before he noticed, which like, you're an asshole.

The fact that you just broke that down so easily because like, cause a 10 and two singles.

So it's like, I think they just did it to be dicks and like hope he wouldn't notice,

but I'm like, no, he's smarter than you.

Now he immediately pointed out this error and he was like, I think you gave me the wrong

bill.

And they were like, oh, okay.

So they went back to their car, they got the money.

But then he said they both quote spewed obscenities at him while driving off.

And it's like, okay.

You stole his gas.

To me, that's a pretty credible tip.

Yeah.

Cause that's already a crime.

And they seem like the kind of pieces of shit that would do something awful.

Right.

So maybe track down.

Like if you're that big of a piece of shit, you, you're a piece of shit through and through.

So the tips from the speedway police hotline and the Indianapolis stars reward desk, they

prompted hundreds of responses, but really only a handful actually produced viable leads

that they could even chase down and then when they chase down those leads, nothing, even

the viable leads, they chase down nothing.

So after two months of investigation, there was still not even a clear motive for this

crime because the robbers had seemingly gone into the burger chef to rob the restaurant.

But if that was the case, why the fuck did they kidnap and murder 14s there?

Like, why did they do that?

And it's like, we always hear the robbery gone wrong explanation for these kind of situations,

but this was really wrong.

Like this went really wrong and not only really wrong, but they took them far away.

Well that's the thing.

I feel like that's not, that's not even a typical robbery gone wrong.

They're just kind of like, presumably shoot them and leave them there.

That's the thing that would be in a robbery gone wrong that they just start shooting and

everybody is at the scene.

Right.

I mean, typically robbers aren't in the habit of executing people in the middle of the woods.

Like pretty rare for that to happen.

So the best explanation that detectives could have come to was that something had thrown

them off their plan that night, that they went in there, ready to rob that place.

And some unexpected thing happened that threw the whole thing into just shenanigans and

the only difference that night that they could come to was the presence of Mark Flemmons.

He had switched shifts with another employee.

Investigators started to theorize that Flemmons knew or could at least identify one or more

of the robbers who were thrown off by his presence and killed all of them in a panic.

I don't agree with that.

I think they're looking at that theory from the wrong angle in my opinion.

I don't think it was that Mark knew these people.

I think it was that they went in there thinking there was four specific people that were going

to be working, which it also was a girl who was supposed to be working in Mark's place.

I wonder if they went in there saying, okay, there's three girls, there's one boy, and

the boy is like a 16 year old.

We can take them.

And then when they went in there and they saw now there's two strong like, you know,

there's two teenage boys that threw everything off.

I don't think it had to do with Mark knowing who these criminals were.

Because the only people that I would think he would know are like his fellow high school

or something.

That's the thing.

I don't think this is the work of two high school students.

No, exactly.

But even with all of that, it's still like that.

Even if they came in there and they saw what they were not expecting to see, which is apparently

an extra boy instead of an extra girl, because that's just my random speculation.

I can see that like throwing everybody off, but like to that extent.

Yeah, not to that.

That's exactly it.

Not to that extent.

It's just that there's a lot of unanswered questions in that.

I feel like that's a theme of this whole thing.

Yeah.

Every time you think you're like, oh, well, maybe this happened, you're like, nah, that

doesn't make sense.

But maybe this is one of those things too that it's like, it doesn't make sense.

It's senseless.

So like, maybe that's what it is.

That was very profound.

Thank you.

I thought so too.

And I think it's real.

So by March of 1979, really the problem, you know, the territorial thing between the departments,

egos, the fragile egos, it was again causing problems for the Burger Chef murder investigation.

Yeah, man.

And there was a lot of confusion among the press that was happening.

On March 7th, the Indianapolis News reported, quote, Speedway police chief Robert Copeland

and all his officers were ordered by his police commissioners and state police not to talk

about any aspect of the November slayings.

So they're essentially saying there was a gag order put on them.

Right.

But then when reporters asked more about this, they were told by the state police superintendent

John Settle, or Shettle, excuse me, this is the first I've heard of it.

We don't dictate to anyone.

We try to cooperate in a case like this.

What?

Those are two very conflicting things.

Yeah, that's opposite day, baby.

And then in the same vein, a spokesperson for the governor's office said, quote, gag

orders are the authority of the judicial system.

Right.

Which implies that unless a judge has issued that gag order, you're not under a gag order.

So it's so wild.

And there was no explanation for this.

So it seemed like Copeland's gag order, quote, unquote, really was nothing more than just

an attempt to avoid questions.

And they did not take on more scrutiny or deal with more scrutiny from the press, basically

not wanting to confront the fact that they had made zero progress in this case and that

it was botched from the start.

And he was like, if I just say there's a gag order, nobody can talk about it and it won't

bring any focus to the negligence that we have committed because that's a thing he just

doesn't have answers.

So I can't say anything.

It's like, but you're just lying and making people believe you less.

He put a gag order on himself.

He did.

If you don't have anything to say, don't say anything.

Don't say anything at all.

Because what could you say if you don't have anything to say?

But then he just lied.

And I was like, that's something like a liar.

You lied right out of his face and into their faces fucked up, brother.

But whatever.

Investigators thought they actually found that had actually caught a break in April.

They finally something popped.

Two men were arrested in Chicago on murder charges and they were discovered to bear a

pretty uncanny resemblance to the composite sketches.

Here we are.

Here we are.

Now, on April 24th, Milwaukee police, because it was in charges were in Milwaukee, Milwaukee

police arrested Stephen Coffey and Norman Pepin.

These were two criminals from Somerville, Massachusetts.

I was there last night.

I was there last night.

Oh my God.

They have fucking stomping grounds.

There it is.

So they were arrested for attempting to cash $300 in traveler's checks, but those traveler

checks had been stolen from travelers.

Not just a random person, but one of two men killed in a quote, execution style killing.

Oh, yeah.

The previous day they had been flagged as being dead ringers for the composite sketches.

Execution style killings, you said.

Oh, yeah.

It gets even crazier.

So on Monday, April 23rd, they met three men.

This is what happened.

They met three men at a Milwaukee Holiday Inn.

They were in the city for an engineering conference and the four of them went to a disco as you

do.

Loves it.

Now, on their way back to the motel, they pulled off the side of the road and they robbed

these men at gunpoint.

They took them to a disco and then robbed them.

And what's even wilder about this is they then quote, forced them to lie down in a ditch

and shot them to death.

Does this sound familiar?

Sure does.

Now, miraculously, one of the men survived and he called the police and was able to identify

these two.

And he had been shot?

Yeah.

Holy cow.

Now, based on their resemblance to the sketches and the fact that this was very similar,

made them lie down, face down in a ditch before shooting them, that all that like similarities

to the Burger Chef case, they had coffee and pep and extradited to Indiana.

I don't blame them.

Because they were like, yeah, we got to at least look at this.

Yeah, talk to y'all.

There, they appeared before a judge and they had to wear paper bags over their heads because

they couldn't jeopardize a lineup and it would have tainted a lineup to have their faces

out there.

I love that crafty, crafty solution.

And don't you love that visual?

Yes, I do.

It's so weird.

It feels wrong.

Now, unfortunately, apparently, when they looked at the timeline of everything, police

announced on May 1st that coffee and pep and were no longer people of interest in the Burger

Chef case.

Did they give reason?

Just like the timeline didn't match up.

But I'm like, okay, but like why?

And I need you to say because they were in Chicago and this happened.

Well, and that's, and it's like, yeah, the timeline didn't work.

I'm like, what about it?

Well, and also it's like, I don't know if I trust you with this case.

I know that I don't.

Yeah.

I don't know about that.

Yeah, girl, me either.

I just don't know about that.

You don't know.

Yeah.

But by October of that year, investigators once again found themselves just completely

lead lists on this whole thing and it seemed like the Burger Chef murders were really fading

out of the forefront here.

They were fading out of the press.

People weren't taking as much interest and on October 2nd, the Metropolitan Board of

Police Commissioners voted unanimously to fire Police Chief Robert Copeland.

Oh, shit.

And they voted to do this because of his lack of leadership on the bombings and the murder

of Julia and then also the Burger Chef murders.

So all the recent crimes.

All the things that he failed to lead his department about.

All of his jobs.

And so he was fired.

And then after that, there was a bunch of dismissals or transfers of like at least a handful of

other law enforcement officers that had something to do with the Burger Chef case.

So they got either transferred out or they were just dismissed.

That's interesting that some of them got transferred out and some got dismissed.

Yes.

It's very strange.

I also don't know about that.

I don't know about that.

No.

Yeah.

So years are going by at this point.

Tips are starting to dry up.

They're coming in, but they're not really doing anything.

Leads are definitely nowhere to be found and the case is really going cold at this point.

Then in December of 1984, Indianapolis star journalist Dan Lusiter.

I think it's Lusiter or Lusiter.

I thought Lusiter.

Lusiter.

And I was like, I don't think that's it.

Lusiter.

I think it is.

Okay.

He received a call from an inmate.

An inmate from the Marion County jail.

Finally, they're chitchat.

Alrighty.

Now this inmate was in there after being arrested for a ton of thefts.

This man said that he had information about the Burger Chef case.

He said it's going to be a great story and I will happily give it to you as long as you're

willing to help me out.

No.

And so Dan was like, yeah, I don't know how I can possibly help you because I'm a journalist.

Like I'm not a judge.

So like, I don't know what to tell you, but he was like, you know what, it's worth finding

out at least what he has to say.

So he made his way down to the Marion County jail to talk to him.

Now at this point, the Burger Chef murder case is six years old.

And at this point, like every single detail had been told, retold in the newspapers.

They'd been, it'd been turned around, it'd been lied about, it'd been retracted, all

this stuff.

It's just been through the mud.

It has.

Through the thick of it.

But it was, I guess this reporter, Dan, he said that there was something about the story

that he was, that this guy was telling him that seemed truthful.

Like it seemed real.

Okay.

And he said, more importantly, the man claimed to know the identities of who was responsible

for the murders.

Well, so we got to hear about it.

And he said, one of those people has already been dismissed by investigators.

Maybe that's why they were transferred.

And then he said the other one was a name that he had actually heard, but that he, this

reporter had never heard before, but the police definitely had.

This guy's name was Donald Ray Forester.

Now Donald Ray Forester's name, like I said, didn't ring a bell to Dan, but it definitely

rang a bell with the Speedway area police.

Because since he was a teen, Forester had been very familiar with law enforcement.

He was a petty criminal, disorderly conduct, like petty theft, reckless driving, those

kind of things.

What did I say in the beginning?

I said, this is not their first rodeo.

No way.

There you go.

I knew it.

After all these petty thefts and these little crimes, he definitely escalated to a violent

crime in 1977.

So right before the Burger Chef murders, he was arrested for, quote, assault and battery

with the intent to gratify sexual desires, which is a mighty escalation.

Yeah, that is.

Now Forester had actually been out on parole when the Burger Chef murders were committed

and he was arrested again for rape in April of 1979.

So this goes in line.

Were the two female victims checked to see if they had any signs that they had been raped?

It didn't seem like they had been.

Nothing that I read suggested that they were, but he had been sentenced to 95 years in prison.

So Dan Lusiter, he went on like a research deep dive on the Burger Chef murders and on

Donald Ray Forester because he was like, I got to try to make a connection here.

And then he finally contacted Forester, who was actually serving out his sentence at Pendleton

Reformatory.

So he finally got him to agree to meet with him and the meeting was June 24th, 1985.

Now at that point, Forester had already been questioned by investigators about the Burger

Chef murders.

He had failed two polygraph tests, but he was saying that he knew nothing about the

case.

Nothing about the crime.

It's so funny because when somebody I'm rooting for fails a polygraph, I'm like, it means

nothing.

It may hot dog in a trench coat.

And then when somebody I'm like, I don't know about you, they fell in, I'm like, they

did it.

You're like, yep, that was it.

I know it's so true.

But so this reporter though was like, because he, again, he's saying he knew nothing about

the case.

The reporter is not going to give up hope though, because he's like, there's some connections

here.

The timing is making sense.

He was out on parole during that time.

He had just escalated to a lot of violence and he committed another act of violence after.

Yeah, it's not like his name was just pulled out of thin air.

But when he's going to meet with him, he's like, I have to be realistic about this.

He might not give me anything.

So when he went, he asked Forester, he said, did you commit the murders?

And Forester said, I did not.

But then Lusitor began just like Dan, he began like pondering aloud.

He's like, you know, I just wonder why, why did these murders occur?

You know?

And I guess Forester, who was not asked directly this, just gave an answer and said it was

drugs, drugs and homosexuality.

What?

Yep.

And he went on to say he was innocent, but he said he did know who committed the murders

and he said, I'll give you that information if you get me a new trial for the rape charges

that I'm in here for.

And Dan is like, one more time for the people in the back, I'm a motherfucking journalist.

I can't give you a new trial, dude.

I can write you a bomb ass article and that's pretty much all I got, man.

Maybe I could put a good word in with my editor, like, I don't know.

It's just like, are you kidding me?

But over the next few weeks, Dan Louseter spent hours and hours and days and days just

investigating Forester.

And eventually he got to interview Forester's ex-wife.

Oh, shit.

Oh, yeah.

Now his ex-wife, she told Louseter, and she told Louseter that you need to bring detectives

to this house.

So he did.

He brought detectives and she led them to shell casings that were hidden in the couple's

septic tank that matched the ones found in the burgership murders.

I don't even know where my septic tank is.

But they do.

Yeah.

What?

Yep.

What?

So then?

Does that mean that they weren't flushing their septic tank?

I have no idea how that works.

You're like, don't ask those questions.

I have no idea.

You're like, what's a subtle?

I'm like, I don't know what they were doing, but what the fuck?

But Louseter brought this information to Forester and was like, yeah, like, do you want to say

anything about that?

And he was like, oh, no, I'm still innocent.

But then he kept, he was like coyly giving pieces of information that you were like,

why would you know that?

How do you know that?

But he kept saying he wanted something in return.

And Dan again is like, I have nothing to give.

So detectives were called in here to talk to him and detectives spent weeks with him.

They drove him to locations around that they thought might be connected to the murders.

They brought him to a hypnotist in Akron, Ohio, but he would not admit to doing it.

And he said he'd never been there.

He had nothing to do with it.

Investigators were so frustrated at this point.

But eventually he did provide the names of two men that he claimed were the killers.

But detectives interviewed these two men and they immediately knew he was lying.

And also, like, oh, you just took the shell casings for them?

Yeah, exactly.

And they made their fucking stuff to tank all these years?

Well, they were like, as soon as they sat down and started talking to them, the two

men, they were like, no, this is a lie.

So by November of 1986, now nearly eight years after the Berger chef murders occurred, detectives

were just done.

They were like, Dan, or Donald Forrester is not going to do the right thing.

He's not going to confess.

Of course not.

We just have to try to get some evidence to force it.

And then they were stunned because they received a call that year saying that Donald Forrester

wanted to chat with them.

So no one understands why or what led this to happen.

But Donald Forrester sat down with these detectives on November 10th, 1986, and he gave a detailed

confession of the murders.

So what do you mean that this is unsolved?

So and these were things, details that only someone who was there that night could have

known.

Like, he described the positions of the bodies, the wounds they suffered.

One of the things he said was that Daniel Davis had been shot in the cheek and that

had never been released to the public.

So why didn't, did he get arrested?

And that's a pretty spit.

Well, he's in jail for 95 years.

Oh, right.

So, so yeah.

But did he have to like, well, he also told investigators that the gun that was used,

they threw in the White River, which makes sense that they never found the gun as a big

old river.

And he also confessed that it was, it was him who had shot Ruth Shelton and Daniel Davis.

Oh my God.

And he also confessed to the two, which also makes sense because Jane and Mark were the

ones that were found further away.

So not only did he confess, but he's confessing correctly saying, I'm the one who shot the

two that were found on the ground.

Holy shit.

Yeah.

It's like, this guy did it.

And did he say who he, who he did it with or he wouldn't give them the name?

Now.

So according to him, the murders quote, resulted from an effort to collect a large debt over

a cocaine deal that involved one of the victims and the crimes had been committed by multiple

people, obviously.

Now this was not seeming to be the real story because if we look at the four people involved,

like the four victims, it doesn't add up.

So everybody was like, I don't know about that.

But in 1981, Jane Freeth's brother, James was arrested on cocaine charges.

Oh.

So you think maybe they went there to like fuck with his sister, to like intimidate him?

And he actually said at the time of his arrest that he suggested that Jane's murder could

have been connected to his arrest.

Cocaine shit.

Oh no.

It doesn't look like the investigators followed up on it at the time though, in 81.

What the fuck were they doing?

Because it was in 81.

Right.

Like only a couple of years after the murders that he was arrested, Jane's brother.

And at that time, he said to investigators, guys, I think this might be the reason that

my sister was killed.

And they didn't follow up on it.

And now this guy is sitting here saying it's a cocaine deal.

And is there any notes or anything?

Like do-do-do.

Do-do-do.

But that's like wild that they just didn't follow.

Yeah.

I cannot imagine a more poorly fucking handled case than this.

No.

All the way through.

Seriously.

Because it's like, it's also, once you look at the scene, you're like, yeah, that actually

makes perfect fucking sense.

Yeah.

Exactly.

You're like, okay, now I see.

That's why they didn't take the ring.

That's why they didn't take the cash.

They took the money out of the thing.

They got what they wanted.

And then they got to, and that's what, it makes sense.

That's brutal.

Yeah.

And on this whole thing, police now connected the murders to the huge drug ring that had

been operating in Speedway at the time.

Okay.

It was run by a guy that Forrester actually implicated as the individual who planned the

whole thing in the first place.

Yeah.

Because he was running it, so he wanted his money.

Exactly.

Now, in exchange for the information, Forrester was granted immunity from prosecution for

this.

Because he was already in prison for 95 years.

But he was only gonna be granted that if he hadn't committed the murders, which he already

confessed to.

Okay.

So they kind of like played a little game.

They tricked him.

Yeah.

And two weeks, but this kind of backfired because two weeks later, he recanted and he said that

he had been coerced to confess by police and that they threatened to, you know, they threatened

all this stuff and that he was, when he was sent back to prison, he was gonna be labeled

an informant and like that was gonna get him killed.

So that was him getting scared that he confessed and then he told all this shit about a huge

drug ring and that when he went back in that they were going to like clearly make them

pay for it.

Exactly.

So now the confession is recanted and investigators are looking for anything that can tie physically

Forrester to these murders.

I mean, that confession is great because he gave the details that only someone there could

know.

But then it's like he's saying nothing physical.

And then it's like, if he's saying he was coerced into that, it's their word against

it because then he can say, well, they gave me those details.

Exactly.

But so they're trying to come up with anything and they came across a charge from 1969 where

Forrester was actually arrested for sexually assaulting a 14 year old girl.

Wow.

He's a piece of actual human garbage in a wooded area off Stones Crossing Road, which

was about a mile and a half from where the burger chef murders occurred.

Wow.

Now, for some reason, he was never sentenced for sexual assault.

Oh, good.

But it kind of proved that one, he's a piece of shit and two, that he's familiar with

the area that they were found.

Now, unfortunately, district attorney Steven Goldsmith didn't think this was sufficient

to prove his guilt, which I can kind of see.

If I was on a jury, I don't know if that would move me.

It's just not enough.

That's the thing.

Now, his confession and then the recanting of that put the district attorney in a really

bad position.

There's one hand that's like, like I said, the details, it's a near certainty that he

is one of the killers.

Absolutely.

A near certainty.

But on the other hand, this story had unraveled and been told and retold and fucked around

so many times that it was now really difficult to tell what was true and what was lies and

what was manipulated and what wasn't.

But the fact that he knew the details of one of them being shot in the cheek when that

thing had never been released and they all believe like he 100% is one of the killers.

Like that is it.

But it just makes proving it a completely uphill battle.

And the biggest problem that the district attorney faced was that so many people had

been involved in the investigation and had contact with Forrester and all of them had

received varying versions of the story and none could settle on just one version of the

story.

And it was like, no one could even settle on like, this is the narrative.

And then what makes everything worse is that the territorial stuff and the ego stuff had

completely plagued everything about this case over the years, had led to so many miscommunications,

tainted evidence, missing evidence.

There was going to be a mistrial if they brought this one hundred, one hundred, one hundred

percent.

It was such a tainted investigation from the beginning from the start, exactly.

It was.

Now, on December 20th, 1986, D.A. Goldsmith called a meeting with investigators from

all the agencies involved in this case.

Together, they combed over Forrester's statement.

It was twelve hundred pages, twelve hundred, all the statements that he had made and after

reviewing everything, Goldsmiths held a press conference and he made an announcement.

He said after careful consideration of this entire thing, he would not be pursuing charges

against Donald Ray Forrester for the burger chef murders.

So bad for those families.

They must have had hope for the first time in like so many years and then just have that

ripped away from you.

And he said that it like killed him, of course, could not do it.

But he said too many years have gone by, too many mistakes have been made in this case.

And I don't know if we're going to be able to solve it.

Well, and the thing is, it's like legally solve it.

Exactly.

Like, I think everybody kind of knows what happened at this point.

And it's like, that's horrible for the family that they had that hope.

But at the same time, I'm glad that he realized that they didn't have enough because if all

those families had to go through trials and opening all of that and then to have it ended

a mistrial or not guilty, fuck that.

Exactly.

That's the thing.

Because it's like, if they had gone through with it, it just would have tainted it further.

Exactly.

And I understand why he was like, it's really not worth it to do this.

Oh, it's such a bummer, though.

I know it bummed me out so much.

It's like more than a bummer.

I know he did it.

Now, in 2003, 25 years after the murders, Rachel and John Shelton, who are the parents

of Ruth Shelton, they gave an interview about the still unsolved Bergercheff murders.

And they said, at first, I was convinced that it would be solved.

That's what her mother said.

And she said, I guess we sure don't hold our breath about it.

It was a very long time ago, which is like so sad, because that's just like just throwing

our hands up, like no one's going to do it.

Now they had both hoped the killer would have been caught, but then when detectives told

them that they didn't have enough evidence to prosecute the suspects, John Shelton said,

to be honest, I don't even want to know their names, like he was like, I don't even really

because it's like, if I don't know for sure, then I don't want to harbor hatred and resend

toward one person that murder could not have done it.

So it's like, forget it.

I don't even want to deal with it.

It's so half ass at that point.

I know.

I'd be like, fuck off.

Yeah.

Like whatever.

And today, the Bergercheff murder case is open, but inactive.

It's so hard because it's like now there's no evidence.

It's just sitting there and all the evidence that they do have all the notes, all the statements

and everything.

It has it's in a five drawer file cabinet and six and a half foot wall locker that's

at State Police District 52 office, just sitting there, just not being touched.

It's been years since they've pursued any leads.

And most of the original investigators are actually all of the original investigators

on the case have either retired or died.

And the Bergercheff restaurant chain was actually sold to CKE restaurant holdings in 1982.

And it is now Hardy's restaurant, which I didn't know.

I don't know.

Have I heard of Hardy's?

Hardy's.

It's like a burgers, I think.

Oh, okay.

Yeah.

And today, the old Bergercheff restaurant on Crawford, Crawfordsville Road and Speedway

sits empty.

Oh, isn't that chilling?

Really?

Yeah.

But then at the same time, it's like, what would you want to see go up there?

I know.

Other than a memorial?

No, it's true.

Like something.

I know it should be like a park.

Yeah.

I feel like, you know, but in the end, we're just left with this nothing, this frustrating

void of information that we know if more investigatory like due diligence was done from the get-go

and people didn't walk into this thing with a preconceived narrative in their head.

And they had actually taken even one fucking photo of that scene, that this all could be

different.

Is mind boggling.

But now we're sitting here and they're trying to solve this case that was just completely

erased from the beginning.

They erased it right from the beginning and literally they magic erased it away.

Yeah.

And it's like, and then, and then they're trying to like, you know, right from the get-go,

they're all sitting there being like, well, I think these kids just, you know, they decided

that night to just steal all the money out of the safe and then took off together.

Like that was their first theory and it's like with no prior past of any kind of yeah,

with no criminal past, like it's just like, okay, I see you, I see you.

And then later they theorize that it must be Mark, the only black employee that was taken

out of that restaurant that day, who knew the killers and that he was the reason that

they were all killed.

And it's like, with what fucking evidence, you have no evidence to back that up.

You're racist.

Like we're just going to go with Mark being the problem here.

I don't think any of them were the problem here.

No, I think they were all okay.

I think they were all victims and I think, I do think that if Jane's own brother suggested

that his, the cocaine stuff could have been to do with it, like his sister's murder.

I think we should listen to them.

They're telling you some follow up questions on that and he's not bullshitting.

It's not like her brother is being like, oh no, but he's, he's saying like probably

out of guilt, like probably out of like anger and sadness and like grief, like this could

have had something to do with it, like investigate it and they were like, why would he say that

other than to be like, please like investigate this, he's not going to implicate himself

even further.

No, he brought it.

Like that is, that's a fucking brother.

Yeah, absolutely.

Like regardless of what he was doing in his personal life or any like the cocaine stuff,

it's like that he was being a brother.

Like he was being a brother and being like, I'm going to put myself out on a limb here

and I want you to investigate this because I think it could have something to do with

it and they just ignored him.

And then you have Donald Ray Forrester sitting there giving that exact same story and saying

it is because of cocaine and a debt that was needed to pay and it's like, that's seems

to me to line up.

Wow.

Yeah, it's a very frustrating case.

And also if that is, if that is the case with the whole cocaine charge, it's like, why did

you like, you didn't need to involve his sister in the burger chef restaurant and deal with

it directly.

No, it's really fucked up.

But it's scary what money will do to people.

And drugs.

Yeah.

Money and drugs mixed together.

Oof.

Bad.

Yikes.

It's like a bad, bad combination.

Oh my God.

That's so scary.

Drug rings I think are one of the scariest fucking things on the planet.

Yeah.

Because it's just ruthless.

Yeah.

That's why I'm just like, okay.

Bye.

Bye.

Yeah.

With that being said, we hope you keep listening.

We hope you.

Keep it.

Weird.

It's just so weird that you run a drug ring because we're scared.

Bye.

Bye.

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Machine-generated transcript that may contain inaccuracies.